Oral History Interview with Bob Gates, December 17, 2012

Sarah Milligan 00:02

Oh, there we go.

Bob Gates 00:04

It's on.

Sarah Milligan 00:05

Okay, so today is December--.

Bob Gates 00:09

17th.

Sarah Milligan 00:10

Thank you, 17th, 2012. This is a [sighs]--what would you call this. A reflective piece by Bob Gates from his time with the Kentucky Folklife Program. And okay, so let's start. Maybe start by introducing yourself like, hello, I'm Bob Gates, and that way we can kind of have a front piece for it.

Bob Gates 00:41

Hello, I'm Bob Gates, [chuckles] former director--founder and director--.

Sarah Milligan 00:47

You can start over, it's okay.

Bob Gates 00:48

Yeah, hi, I'm Bob Gates, I'm founding director and former director of the Kentucky Folklife Program. Gonna retire this week, so sitting here with Sarah, my favorite [laughs] past employee just talking about.

Sarah Milligan 01:09

Yeah, we're just gonna talk a little bit about--about your time here. So, [sighs] I guess, and this is the hard part by trying, and you and I both know this. When you're trying to make something that is ultimately going to be a small production piece, it's hard to--so, I'm not the best at being like, "go back and rephrase that with."

Bob Gates 01:28

Yeah.

Sarah Milligan 01:28

So, anyway, so maybe just talk a little bit about when you started. You know, how did your time with the folklife program start, and what was your story and your relationship to Kentucky? I think that's a good place.

Bob Gates 01:45

Okay, well, I came here back in 1988, after being the state folklorist in Louisiana for three years. I had taken Nick Spitzer's place and been working there. I was talking to the kids about it the other day, it's--it was a great experience being there, but the budget kind of went up and down, and I really wanted to be closer to home, which is Cincinnati. So, we--I applied for a job up here, when it was listed and--and got a job and got the state folklife program. We named it the Kentucky Folklife Program, instead of the folklore program. Because we wanted to make it inclusive of all--all forms of traditions and culture in the state. I came here about then, and we what we were trying to do is document and interpret and present the culture of the whole state, and even though I was in Berea, it felt like I needed to reach out to the whole state, and that's--that's pretty much what we did. We formed an advisory committee and started working together, working on documenting things, doing projects, and programs.

Sarah Milligan 02:54

So, what were the goals when you were first hired by the group of folklorist[s] within the state you wanted to--who wanted to really see this program take off. When you were first hired, what were the goals and ambition and the kind of mission that they wanted to accomplish through hiring you?

Bob Gates 03:16

I think they wanted to do more than what had been done before, when there was a folklife program here in 60--no, in '85--'84, '85. They want--wanted to reach across the state. It was--it was--the people who hired me were basically a consortium of groups from across the state, including Land Between the Lakes, the [Kentucky] Historical Society, I think it was part of it. The [Kentucky] Heritage Council, the [Kentucky] Oral History Commission, the [Kentucky] Humanities Council, they all they all wanted to--they saw the value of having a folklorist. Because in all their programs, they saw there was something missing, I think. They saw it wasn't, it wasn't reaching--in the Arts Council, they weren't reaching the average person and their everyday life art. It was--they wanted to have somebody who could--had that. I think the Historical Society at that time, And the oral history commission wanted to add a history of some of the groups that are rep--usually in history, like the small ethnic groups and newcomers to the state, they knew they were coming. So, every-- even Land Between the Lakes, they wanted something out of a folklorist, being part of here. I think, partly to coordinate what everybody--a--kind of a clearinghouse for information. They wanted to see surveys done to see what actually is in the state. They wanted me to reach across, you know, Appalshop was in the east, but and they were doing a lot of great stuff, but they knew things weren't--weren't being done on a statewide basis. So, everybody had a bit in it. When we got our first advisory committee, I remember the guy from the Center for the Arts, in Louisville, coming up and saying, "you need make a big splash and do something big, so people see you." Other people were saying, "well, you need to lay low and do--do some surveys and, and do that, get your feet wet." Having been in Louisiana and having done the state folk festival for two years in a row, almost three years, I was kind of burned out on festivals. And I also, so--one of the people asked me, "are we gonna do festivals, are we gonna do a state folk--." And I said, "not right away. [chuckles] Let's, let's see what's out there, see what we've got, and do some survey work." And so, it was a miss--you know, that was kind of the direction. It was [a] go survey, find what's out there, figure out how we can do some partnerships with different groups, get everybody involved, and also meet some of the missions of the--of the consortium that sponsored me at Berea. So--what they were doing is they wrote the grant that and the National Endowment for the Arts. Betsy Adler wrote it, actually, she was working for the Humanities Council, but the idea is that I would work kind of for all these different groups, which was kind of crazy, but I ended up really working a lot with the Arts Council right from the start. And in a couple of years, we had, we had formed a state folklife granting program, where there wasn't one before, with a granting panel. So, we were giving out folk arts grants, even before I was with the Arts Council. Because I was seen as a--kind of a consultant to the Arts Council. They had these things called circuit riders, people who went around the state or whatever and we would meet every month, and they said, "the circuit riders and Bob are invited to this meeting." [laughs] So, Bob would come and--I'd be the only one at the table kind of representing the folklife and what was (??). Go ahead.

Sarah Milligan 06:45

I was just gonna say, so that really talks about why it was formed and how it was formed, and what the motives were. So, at what point did you come into the actual state system?

Bob Gates 06:58

Oh, about the third year of, you know, when I--when I took the grant, and when I took the position at Berea, part of the position was that you had to write your own grant every year and get yourself the money to keep your program going, which wasn't that difficult with NEA. --They wanted to state folklorists, and they help you out, and I wrote my salary and everything, but after three years, they want to see that program grow and become self-sustaining. So, I had, we had to take it on the road and see who would--would take it. How--where I could find a home for it, and I remember, I remember going down the Western [Kentucky University], talking to the professor's down there, trying to see if it would fit there. I went to the [Kentucky] Heritage Council, which is a state preservation office and talked with them and see if we, we had done some projects together, so it seemed like a good match. But the best offer, I think that one that fit well was to go with Kim Lady Smith, with the oral history commission, kind of under her wing and as she brought the oral history commission into the Historical Society, she brought the folklife program along with it. And it's--it's all good. Jim Klotter was here, and he had an open idea of what he wanted to do, and it fit in with the goals of what the--Historical Society. They were kind of reinventing themselves, and we were part of that.

Sarah Milligan 08:16

And how did you end up being in our agency. Talk a little bit about that relationship between the Historical Society and Arts Council.

Bob Gates 08:24

--It kind of just unfolded because I had already been working with the Arts Council, before I met Kim Lady Smith. I remember I was [coughs]---I was out in Berea by myself, basically with some students working with me, and trying to make connections. And I remember Kim, Lady Smith and Mary Winter, I think, from the Historical Society coming out to visit me and saying, "well, can we do a project with you? We want to get to know you." So, I kind of got to know them, and then she introduced me through the Arts Council also. I gonna go back up on that again. What was the question?

Sarah Milligan 08:59

How you became in our agency?

Bob Gates 09:02

--Well, okay. So, there was an interest for me to go with the Historical Society but we--I always knew the--most state folklorist--folklore programs in the nation, and there was a lot of them. Almost every state had one, most of them were in the arts councils--in the State Arts Councils. Because they saw that it was their mission and the National for the-- National Endowment for the Arts funded these. So, it was kind of--that was our model was National Endowment for the Arts. Let's go--let's be part of the Arts Council. Well, we decided that we had a better fit in the Historical Society, and that the Arts Council really didn't have a position open for me. But we wanted to have a purpos-- wanted to be part of the Arts Council because they were the grant--they gave grants. They could get--get lots of money and give grants to areas of the state that didn't get it, and that's what we saw the Folklife program fitting in there. Because it was--we were taking, not a lot. I mean, at the biggest, it was $50,000, I think, for grants, but we were taking that money and giving it to counties that probably never got a grant from the Arts Council. Lewis County, for instance, never had gotten a grant from the Arts Council. They never wanted, you know, they didn't have any small arts council's or fine arts projects they were doing and that was what--the Arts Council was funding, but when we brought out the Tour for Kentucky Folk Music grants, that was something they liked. So, it became a dual thing, I guess, because I was going to both meetings, and we never made it an official statement. It was never--legislated that it was--we just said, "well, Bob's here for both of them. Let's--let's make it a part of both groups. Both organizations."

Sarah Milligan 10:53

Yeah, that makes sense.

Bob Gates 10:54

Yeah, I mean, I remember telling Brent [Bjorkman] that that was the--when he--when Brent working for me, I told him, that's where it was, and he thought it was crazy for doing that.

Sarah Milligan 11:02

It is crazy.

Bob Gates 11:03

Because it made more work. You had--you had two bosses, you had two people to please. But I think the reach of the program was bigger because of that. Because I could do, I could have folk arts grants, the tour of Kentucky folk music, the apprenticeship grants, all were things we could do. Plus, the craft market was part of, we had programs there. The apprenticeship, we did programs on the governor's mansion, because I was part of the Arts Council showing the-- apprenticeship program, and on the other side, we had the Historical Society that offered an archives [archive] and offered a whole staff that later helped do folk festivals, you know. So, it was the best of both worlds, I think, in some ways.

Sarah Milligan 11:47

Let's talk about some of the programs that you have--that you have produced or overseen over the years. I think in the line of Tour of Kentucky Folk Music and--Folklorist in the Park and things like that. Maybe just kind of go down a brief list--list and explanation of some of the ones that you've--maybe the ones that you're most proud of, and the ones that you think gave the most impact.

Bob Gates 12:12

Yeah, why you always said that I could never say no to a project, and that's kind of the way it was. It was like---sometimes it might have been better if we just did two or three things a year, but it seemed like, when I looked through my archives of projects listed, it was like ten a year we were doing this and this and this. --And I felt like that was a way of reaching a lot of different places in the state, and they all sounded so good to me. [laughs] I didn't want to say no to them but, I think some of our best ones were you know, at first our surveys. We did the Kentucky River, and that's--was all--from Beattyville, all the way down to the Carrollton with students documenting thing. That was our--like our foundation. We got that one under our belt and we said, well, let's do another one." And the Always a River project was a National Endowment for the Humanities funded all these big grants. And so, we jumped into that and did a survey the Ohio River, which is ten counties or something--ten places, a lot of counties and things. Those were fun--they were, you know, I remember with the Ohio River project, we did the survey and then the next year, we did a series of festivals along the river, and every weekend I had, in my pickup truck---full of signs and went out did mini folk festivals, with the people there. I mean, that was kind of incredible to do that. To add that on to the components, and we had a good time. My kids got to see a lot of places and my family got to go. I enjoyed those. I think I really enjoyed--. Oh, I don't know. I always enjoyed working with communities, you know. Going out to meetings and consulting and trying to help them with their local--local festivals and things like that. One of the other things we did besides the surveys was the Folklorist in the Park, you mentioned that. That was--that was kind of a Bobby Fulcher thing. Bobby Fulcher did it in Tennessee, kind of made his name there. A lot of--some great folklorists across this nation, had their baptism [laughs] by working for Bobby Fulcher in these little state parks all around Tennessee, and there was even a book written about it Seasonal, by, what's her name? I can't think of it.

Sarah Milligan 14:45

Betty Belanus.

Bob Gates 14:45

Betty Belanus, yeah. But that was a model that---that I really liked, and I thought we could do here in the state. So, we wrote an NEA grant for that and--and what I'm proud about, I guess is everybody who took part in it just about, has become, state folklorists or working in projects that are---. Larry--Larry Morrissey, now--was a state folklorist down in-- Mississippi and doing really well there. John Kay, he was one. I think Brent a little bit, I don't know, no, I mean, he did something else, but another one got his doctorate in English and went on [chuckles] but we did about six of those, I think, and it was neat, because it was the idea that we---. When people come to state parks, they want to stay--they have a state park interpreter, shows them things. Snakes, basically, and [laughs] other animals, and, you know, that kind of thing. And they have these kind[s] of really neat projects about the local cultural, not the local, cultural, the local natural resources. So, what we were trying to do is add to not--the local--local cultural resources. Why not talk about what's in your area, and that was, it was a good model, I think. And it worked for those guys, they got, you know, they've gone on. I wish that we could have gotten more money and kept it going, but it's the kind of thing again, as--you'd throw out these models, and you hope they stick, and [you] hope they continue. ---I guess I'm really proud of the Community Scholar Program.

Sarah Milligan 16:31

Talk a little bit about that.

Bob Gates 16:35

Even when I was in Berea, there was Betty Belanus, at the Smithsonian, had this idea of community scholars, and that was the idea that other people can do this kind of work. You don't have to be a trained folklorist, but if you've got desire and--and know your community and really want to get out there and document, you can, if you just give them the right tools. It felt good to me because that's kind of what I did. When I was in Cincinnati, before I was a folklorist, I was--I learned any way could how to do oral history. I went to Newberry Library for a week, but that was--that was most training I ever had, really. And so, I learned by going out and interviewing people and making mistakes, and trying different things and just you know, working with people who knew, who taught me basically. And that's what I think the Committee Scholars Program is about. Teaching people and letting them learn as they go along, and learn from their mistakes, learn from their mistakes, but get to learn more as they go. So, other states did it-- three or four states I know--and I'm pretty guilty of borrowing things from other states. [laughs] We get--together at the conferences every year, especially in the South. The--oh, what do you call it? Folklorists in the South conference---meeting. Actually, they call it the Folklorists in South Retreat, because we're kind of retreating and getting together, but I had seen that other places were doing--Louisiana had done a couple community scholars, but they were all this institute type thing. Two weeks, come to the state capitol, pay this much money, have five or six different people come and teach you during the week. You know, it's really good, and they got, but what a lot of them didn't have is this follow up, they would do this training, and then, you never heard if anybody was doing anything afterwards. And the bad part of that was--well, to me, and I was working with a woman called Judy--named Judy Sizemore, who knew eastern Kentucky well, and that's where we wanted to do our first ones. And she said, "that's not going to work out here. Because people, the people who are really engaged in their community don't have a lot of money. You can't take off two weeks to do this in the summer. You really need to come to their place and teach them." So, that's what--I listened to Judy, which is the best thing you can do, is listen to Judy Sizemore, right? [laughs] and so, we got together, and we started one in eastern Kentucky, and--with the idea that we'll go there for six or seven, how many times it takes and--and do the workshops there, and then we can monitor them. They can have time to go out and do the interviews and we---we can critique as they're going along, and then after that we'll build a network that we can keep training them every year and keep in touch with them, and that that's kind of what---how we developed it. It's been--it's become a model for other states. People have asked me to come and talk about it in there. I think we have some of the strongest community scholars in the United States. We bring some of them to American Folklore Society meetings and they show off what they do and they're really good. We have some that don't hardly do anything [laughs]. That's [There's] a lot who do and--and that's kind of, I'm really proud of that. Because I think it sends a message out that---that this stuff is something we can all do, and you don't have--. I like projects with community scholars that help--that work with other folklorists too. So, there's this--this kind of mentoring between them. I don't think--we don't put out a finished folklorist with the community scholar. We put out somebody who's ready to start something and knows a little bit about how to do it, and they can--they can build on that foundation. So, I think we've got 200 people doing it now.

Sarah Milligan 20:37

Is it busy?

Bob Gates 20:38

Yep.

Sarah Milligan 20:41

So, the last year and a half that you've kind of been thinking about what the next steps would be, what do you--what do you think the future holds for the folklife program, as it is now, as well as a traditional arts program at the Kentucky Arts Council and what's your own personal direction? So, what do you--those three things, what do you---what do you think?

Bob Gates 21:15

You know, you get used to what you're doing, and you think it's the best and--as you're going along but I can see, as things were changing all across the country, things had to change with this. I think it's--it's interesting now, it's morphed from one folklife program into like, two or three headed monster. No that's not, a three-headed nice thing. [laughs] Not---I don't like to say the trinity, but it's--it's stronger, I think. It's, it could be stronger. I hope you're gonna cut that out, right?

Sarah Milligan 21:49

Yeah, you can start over if you want.

Bob Gates 21:56

No, I think--yeah--now, the folklife program's been a certain way for--twenty-three years. It's grown, it's been kind of me as director with a lot of different folklorists that have worked with me. Like you, and Sarah Schmitt, Mark [Brown], Chase (??). A lot of people who have gone through it. Plus, the artists, the folk, the folk, young folklorists that worked on projects. Like the Kentucky River surveys, and the other surveys in the parks. They were all--that's what kind of made the program is this, this, this unity of different folklorists, who worked on things and went--on--went on or stayed here. We have some in state, it's kind of grown even different because we've added the component of Community Scholars. So, we've got this whole network of community scholars across the state. Okay.

Sarah Milligan 22:07

Do you want me to ask it again?

Bob Gates 22:50

So, I don't think the folklorist-like program is by itself, existed by itself. It was something that had all these networks and people that worked with [it], and I think that's going to remain and now it's at Western, I think that's going to strong--be strong, Brent's [Bjorkman], last I heard he's going around the state talking to everybody and trying to--get these partnerships even stronger, and they had suffered in the last couple of years, because we didn't have any money from, you know, from the Arts Council. We had--our grants had been in hiatus for at least four years, and that really helps to be able to help people out with money and, and give them support, things like that. So, I think that's strong, that folklife program is going to make those connections. It's got a good home at Western. It's got a feeder of students coming in, which is something we always did. I think he's going to have a lot of--Brent's going to work on a lot of projects that will get these folklorists hopefully to stay here, but not always but you know, get their feet wet in Kentucky. And that helps--I think there's--that's probably one of the most studied states now, I think. Got a lot of people who've done research and it's all down there. I don't know if they'll ever do a folk festival. I hope they do. People have been talking to me all the time. I see people with T-shirts on with the Kentucky Folklife Festival saying, "when's it coming back?" I say, "I'm retiring." "Oh, no! [laughs] Aren't we still doing the festival though? [laughs]" I said, "well, no, not that I know of." [laughs] but it I think it may go that direction. I know Michael Ann [Williams] talked to me a couple--a year ago about a place down in Western where it could be. I think one of the things that we did with a folk festival was to help other local festivals be--be better at what they do, and we're still doing that. That's something I'm going to be doing with the Arts Council through the KPAN grants.

Sarah Milligan 24:51

Which is?

Bob Gates 24:52

KPAN is Kentucky Peer Advisory Network. It’s a consulting program, basically. So, they're saying a peer advisor or somebody who is your peer, who's done a good job with this and can share his knowledge or her knowledge with you.

Sarah Milligan 25:05

So, I've been trained to do that. I've been trained to be a consultant, but basically, I'm doing what I've been doing for years. Is--is taking what I know about festivals and helping somebody redo their festival. How do you add a heritage component to your local festival without changing the festival? Well, you can--you can add a narrative stage over here. You can, you can try to think about what you're trying to get people learn when they come to your festival. That's not just fun, I mean, it is fun, but you want them to go away learning about the local culture. How do you do that by doing different modes of presentation and getting involved in the community. So, I can do those kinds of KPANs, those sponsorships. Which is nice because the Arts Council will pay people for me to do---pay me to go do that. I think Mark being at the Kentucky Arts Council is a great thing too. Because that--I have hopes that they're going to bring back more grants. Right now, they still have the Apprenticeship Grant, which is really strong. We celebrated our twentieth anniversary. I mean, that's what I'm proud of too, is--twenty-one years of doing apprenticeships in the state. That's a squeaky wheel. I guess that's a janitor going down the hall with this--with the bucket. That's right, or just sitting outside the room right there. [laughter] Going back and forth.

Bob Gates 26:27

Going back and forth. [laughter] Could be. I think it's it's going to be--what I have hopes for is that, and I started on this to start a folklore association in the state. Which can write grants, too and do projects and work with Brent to do things that he might not be able to do. I found when I was state folklorist, there was [were] things I couldn't do. I wish I had another organization who could do that, if--I see it as a complementary thing, and then Mark here in Frankfort, doing grants and--. Basically, when you're in the folk--in the Arts Council, you're raising people's idea of what folklife is. I mean, one of the things I'm proudest of, I guess is that the Arts Council started using terms like 'art in everyday life.' They started looking at different folk groups and looked at different groups in--in their mission, and they implant those words. It's very strong, it wasn't there, when we first came. Now it is, and now they've got somebody who's working with groups all the time over there, as---with accessibility of folklorists, Sarah Schmitt--and then Mark can only add more to that, I think. So, I think it's great having all three of these. Does that answer your question?

Sarah Milligan 27:45

Umhmm.

Bob Gates 27:45

Okay.

Sarah Milligan 27:46

Well, so let's talk about some of the---some of the moments that you feel are your---maybe your legacy. You know, what are you proud of, what do you think people are going to remember Bob Gates and--as the director of the Folklife Program for?

Bob Gates 28:03

I think I--some people remember you as a folklore salesperson. [laughs] Can--I could always talk somebody into doing something. I mean, I think you said it the other day is that I never took no for an answer with our---. I always tried to do something. Somebody would tell me you can't do it. but I always thought you could. So, I feel like if I had been in another business, I might have been a car salesman or something [laughs] But I think, I always feel like people--I see the results of the festivals we do and the public programs, when we present somebody and how happy they are that somebody got to share what they--they got to share their culture with somebody else. Raymond Hicks building a boat, somebody got to see him do it, and they appreciate it and he felt good about--he felt that his tradition was strong. The basket makers that we present, the marble players. All those guys, all those people, we had them at the Kentucky Folklife Festival one year, and they would bug me every year to come back. Nobody ever said, "don't invite me back." Everybody always said, "can I come again--can I com--." Because they knew what they were doing was important. It was--it was reaching people about their culture and helping people understand their own culture. I think that was important to me, and important to what we were doing here. I lost track of what the question was.

Sarah Milligan 29:36

What are you proud of? What's your like, people are gonna look back on--.

Bob Gates 29:39

Okay, okay. And, you know, it's a long story, but you know, nobody ever said that they didn't want to come back, and I feel like in the front end, though, nobody ever said they wanted to come very easily. It was always--you can't just say, "I'm gonna make a list and do a folk festival and just invite these people and it's gonna happen." It's always about getting the--getting to make these connections. Making people trust--helping people trust you, and you trusting them, that they're going to show up--[chuckles]--and that they feel good enough to come. Because it's a big deal for somebody who makes nets, down in Carrollton or a boat to say, "I am actually going to come up here and get in front of people and I trust that you're going to sell--tell me tell my story well." That's what they're thinking, and, and just by calling them up or sending them an email, [chuckles] that's not going to work. And I've had people work for me think, "all we have to do is send them an email, it's gonna, it's gonna happen." They found out quickly that you really have to--have to get to know people, and you might have to spend a day going down someplace, to the basket maker, sitting with them all day and saying, I remember one of them with the--we were going to present Latinos one year, and we wanted to have three different groups. Mexican Americans that lived here in Frankfort, Guatemalans from---from Shelbyville, and Cubans. We got them all together, and we're trying to figure out how we could present them, and it wasn't easy, you know. You have to, you have to tell them what folklife's about, what you can do, how important their traditions are, and figure out ways that they trust you. Our first thing was, we want everybody to know that we're not Mexicans, we're not all Mexicans, we're from different countries. Second thing they wanted people to know is what--what do we do in our everyday life, why is it important? So, in that sense, I guess people--I think people may think of me as---I a manipulator I hope not. I just, I just feel like I'm trying to help people get to where they want to be sometimes, and I tried to figure out how to do that and--. I think people think of me as being a nice guy [chuckles] you know. Kind of disjointed, not all together all the time, doing too many things at one time, but I'd like to be remembered as somebody who, who did things right, and wanted to finish something and not quit on it, and may--be proud of what I did. I think our programs that we did were pretty good. At---you know, I'm not good at certain things, like writing signs [chuckles] for festivals. Writing certain things but I've been blessed with having people work with me who are good at those kind[s] of things. I mean, you were good at doing the Highway 23 project, it would never [have] got done without you going out and doing behind the scenes and getting all those contracts and things with everybody. Mark, you know, I don't know, if I had to be state folklorist without him very long [laughs] I wouldn't get anything written. I'm still sending--him things to edit. I sent something today. [chuckles] I'll find a report and say, "would you--would you edit this with me, Mark?" He just really is good at that but at the same time, he's not good at asking somebody to do something sometimes. He wasn't when he first started but--he--he didn't want to have it. Didn't want to have it. But now he's good, a lot better at it, I think.

33:21

You mean, he didn't want to hustle? [laughter]

Bob Gates 33:25

He didn't want to hustle---yeah. You know, somebody said no him the first time he said, "okay." Even Brent did that with the guy--down in the German town when we were doing that. You know, it's like, and I'm always thinking, "did you ask them this? Did you try to [laughs]--try to do this?" [laughs]

Sarah Milligan 33:25

I think would he have like, started a hunger strike in the store until they said yes, though.

Bob Gates 33:50

Yeah, [laughter] I mean, you almost have to paint a picture to them of what's going to happen at the festival or that event. In terms that they can relate to, that's going to make them feel, "oh yeah, I would feel good about that." But you have to do it in such a way that the--you're not preaching to them, you know. It takes a lot of work. I enjoyed that part of it, and I enjoyed it--I guess that's kind of consulting. Working with people. I like--I liked about--what I liked about the job was getting to travel the whole state and take people with me and get them lost and stuff like that. But I feel like even today, when I'm retiring, when I ride someplace, I'll always try a new road, just to see what that downtown looks like. I mean, what the---what the cultural landscape is (??) to say, you know, as you're riding out you know, "what do they do there in this county." I feel like there isn't--there's hardly any county I haven't driven or back road on, in the state. I hope have--I hope I've done them all but there are. There's [are] some roads I haven't gotten lost on yet. [laughs]

Sarah Milligan 33:57

It's a good thing you still have time.

Bob Gates 35:03

Yeah, that's what I want to still do. I think that was fun. I think what I liked about working with the program was the national exposure we could do. That we could get for the program by--by presenting at conferences, and, you know, the Community Scholar program was a national model, I think. --We were known for our--our festival. I mean, I think the Folklife Festival was based on the Smithsonian, but I went and saw some other state folk festivals before I did it here. Michigan, great festival but I think ours is better, in some ways. Not better, I think it was bigger, and encompassed more, and at the same time, it was loser, I guess, you know. We spent a lot of money sometimes, when we probably shouldn't have, but it was a model, I think that really worked for us. And I'm proud of the festivals, I think--as much as they were work. It was--it was like having a baby, I guess. You work on it for nine months, and then you have it and you're depressed for a couple--[chuckles]--a little while afterwards. It was like that with our festivals here. I think we--we got everybody involved here as we could. And we had some great themes that we did over the years, the Highway 23. I guess my favorite one was doing K State [Kentucky State University] in 2007. doing--I mean, who else--who would have thought of doing that as a theme for a festival? The K State Homecoming, tradition as being something. Most people would say, that's just, "well, that's just an event, why would we do that?" But when we got into it, people were telling us that--that K State, if you were African American, it didn't matter if you went to K State or not, you went to their homecoming or you--you thought about going to the homecoming because it's it was more, it was Black pride. It's--it's about community pride, throughout the whole state. So that---just having those guys play on the State Capitol, seeing that, that band play, and then being--knowing that because we took the time to do the research, that there was somebody on stage presenting the background of that tradition. It wasn't just--I mean, around here and around in this region, people use K State all the time, they'll say, "can you guys come and play at our football game? Can you do this?" And so, they'll make a decision? "yeah, you guys go. That's good for the college." But I don't think it is--I mean, I think they're abused, sometimes. I don't think people understand what it's about. I don't think they---they're just kind of using it, and I thought when we had them down here on the State Capitol, that was a time then they felt like they were really being presented, you know. The inside knowledge of that. I just remember those three guys on stage and their--I don't know what they call them. They lead the whole parade. When they were up there, I just, I was tingling, and I thought was so cool.

Unkown 38:24

The drum majors.

Bob Gates 38:25

The drum majors. Yeah, cause, in another sense, you know, I think this town, like a lot of towns, had a Black college up on the hill. [There] has been racial prejudice between the two for years. You never seen many of the students down here. I think it's changing but I think--I think it was good for us to do something that brought them down here and showcased them. I don't know [if] it was long lasting. I guess the only problem with festivals is you don't know what the long-lasting results are.

Sarah Milligan 39:03

Yeah.

Bob Gates 39:04

If you know anything about anything?

Sarah Milligan 39:06

Yeah, it's hard to quantify that. Well, so you have some plans for the future. You've got the festivals and community scholars and survey projects and personal outreach and festival consultation. It's a lot. Is there anything else you want to wrap up with?

Bob Gates 39:37

I liked our work with newcomers to the state.

Sarah Milligan 39:40

Define newcomers.

Bob Gates 39:43

People who--new arrivals. Like I mean, another term is new--like our work with new arrivals, people who recently come here from other countries. I think we made a statement in one of our festivals. That's not a profound statement, but it was a statement that we're all immigrant groups, we all came from immigrant groups at one time, and I think that's kind of the root of cultural diversity in the state. Is that we're all from other places, so why should we consider Hispanic--Mexican Americans or Guatemalans as being different than--really different than us or people that we shouldn't appreciate? One of the, you know, when we had them in the---our first festival, I think we made a point of putting-- having a mariachi band play. Walked around the festival, and the newspaper here in town had a picture of them and an article that said, "why are these people at the Kentucky Folk Festival?" A challenge, basically saying, and you know, it tells you a little bit about how people are thinking. They're thinking of old timey stuff, folklife is old timey, that it should be just the white banjo players and the dulcimer players, and that's what folk is. Well, we were trying to dispel that, and we were trying to do it by making people appreciate the cultures that are new to this area. So, when we did a couple of years later, 'We are Kentuckians,' that was a sub-theme that Kim Lady Smith worked out with the oral history commission and us and it looked great. Pictures and the whole area was about that we're all Kentuckians, and that-- when we bring our--when they bring their traditions here, that's as much a part of Kentucky culture as the people who have been here for 200 years. That was a hard one for people to get I think, I think they're getting it, and I'm pretty proud of that.

41:37

I think that was a good one, too. That's a good--a good point of what that program has done and has been strong at as well.

Bob Gates 41:45

And I think, is that mine? You know, you always wonder what people go away with at festivals, and we--we made a point of trying to kind of do more evaluations and have students from Western come up and ask people, if their attitude had changed about folk culture, by being at this festival? You know that--did you have fun here, but more like, what did you think of this tradition? What do you--

Sarah Milligan 41:53

It's yours.

Bob Gates 41:53

Oh, sorry. I'll turn it off. It's probably really important--probably something.

Sarah Milligan 42:16

Yeah, well--.

Bob Gates 42:19

Ah--shit--is that enough, you think?

Sarah Milligan 42:20

I think that's enough, that was about 40 minutes, I'm already gonna have to narrow it down to 10 or 15 minutes.

Bob Gates 42:26

Did you want me to say anything about Historical Society a little bit more? I mean, this is going to be on Historical Society's thing.

Sarah Milligan 42:35

YouTube, yeah.

Bob Gates 42:35

YouTube. I guess---.

Sarah Milligan 42:37

Can you--can you talk because you--the only thing you really said was that it was good for the staff, but you didn't actually say the staff at the Historical Society or the Arts Council?

Bob Gates 42:50

Yeah.

Sarah Milligan 42:51

But, I mean, yeah, maybe talk a little bit about your relationship with KHS. Because you've been, you've been a staff member and your offices have been in KHS for most of the time, right?

Bob Gates 43:06

Yeah, I said earlier that this was kind of an experiment to do the--for a folklife program to be a part of a historic society. Most of them were in arts councils, and it was easy to fit in there because they had these disciplines of art and folk arts fit, right, as one of those disciplines. You fit in it; you knew what the model was. We came here and we were completely different, we were a folklife program and a historic society, which looks at history. Well, we had to prove that folklife is part of history, and always said to him, that folklife is the kind of the best of history that people bring forward with them. It's still alive, so they like this tradition, they keep it, and it speaks about their culture, that's why it's---it's just much history as anything else. It's just--it might even be better history because they kept at [laughs] and so (??). But that--that was the selling point, I think that we--we pushed. We also talk about how, as part of the Historical Society, we were the--we were a group that helped work with new arrival--new groups that hadn't been documented. Like the Chinese Americans, and African Americans--and sometimes they---we reach some people that hadn't been--they hadn't been documented as well, at that time. I mean, they've been pretty well documented, but it's, you know, folklife's about small groups and so, what we were looking at is small groups that weren't the bigger groups, and I think we really fit in here. It took a while. I mean, we were kind of outsiders when we were in that building and then came over here. We were all together at one time, at the--at the--what do you call it? The annex, at the Old State Capitol, yeah. It was fun. We are all together there and this kind of small space and got to know each other and I would work on projects that weren't folklife sometimes. I might help out with photography, help out with other exhibits and things. We worked on different things together. I think its strength--the folklife's strength here has been that it's--it's added things. It's, it's allowed staff here to do things sometimes that they wouldn't be able to do. I think the folk vessels a[n] example that. People who work in a library, going out and being in charge of the stage, [chuckles] being a stage manager, all of a sudden. Mary Winter had worked in this space here as a photographer, as the photo archivist. She was out there working on--for days, being in charge of the site, a site manager, and it's like, wow, it lik--[chuckles]--their fantasy was fulfilled, they get to do things [laughs] that they never could have done before. Some, you know some of them. Some people we dragged out there, but I think a lot of the staff really liked being out there, and, and we talked them into that. Kim and I and other people here, and I think that was really a strong part of being here. I'd like to thank the Historical Society for housing the folklife program. I think it was, like I said, it was an experiment, and I think, going 21 years is pretty good for our program. There was another one out in Oregon, in the historical society, didn't last half that long, and I think we'd still be here, but wasn't [for] the economic problems at the state that everybody's undergoing. I think we were well-respected here, and we respected working with--it's neat working with historians, they're different [laughs]. But it's neat being around in this atmosphere where you could walk down the hall and see a[n] exhibit being mounted in one room, being built, and in another room, there's people bringing in artifacts, right from somebody's house and taking care of them. Up in the library, people who get to go and see and do their family history and genealogy. You know, all these different people are drawn here, and it was neat being part of that, and I got to talk to some of the--these people and in the arch--. I mean, I got to work with the librarians, and I got to work with these people, and--. It's a neat place to be, and I thank the Historical Society for housing it for this many years. I think it's a good place for it. It was a good place for it. Does that work?

Sarah Milligan 47:41

Yeah, I think that was good. Perfect timing. All right.

Bob Gates 47:48

Maybe you can use some of that--.

Sarah Milligan 47:49

Yeah, I'm gonna have to--I think there's plenty to use.

Bob Gates 47:53

I didn't rant or anything. You didn't, you were very good. [sighs loudly]