Sarah Milligan 00:01
All right. This is Sarah Milligan interviewing Bob Gates, about the development
and history of the Kentucky Folklife program. Today's date is May 21st, 2012. When did we get to 2012? [laughter] I know we're halfway through, I don't feel like we shouldn't be though. Um, and we're going to talk a little bit today about--what do people call it, the two aughts--the 2000s--the last decade.Bob Gates 00:31
Oh, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 00:33
So, I thought we could maybe start, just kind of recapping some things that have
happened in the last ten years and talking specifically about some organizational partnerships that you've developed. Since we've talked a lot about individuals and some programmatic--you've also worked a lot with people, but I would also kind of like to talk about the Community Scholars program. Because we haven't really done that yet, up to that point. I think, partly because it started around this time period as well, so.Bob Gates 01:01
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure when it started.
Sarah Milligan 01:03
I think you always, well I always remember you saying it started around 2000,
but that may or may not be true. I started in 2005, and then it had been going for at least three years, maybe, five may have been when you kind of unofficially did--Judy [Sizemore] trained Judy, and Janet, maybe. I don't if Janet had been doing it forever, without the Community Scholars, but [laughs].Bob Gates 01:27
And we trained Sue--.
Sarah Milligan 01:31
Sue Massek.
Bob Gates 01:31
--Sue Massek, early on. Kind of a Community Scholar, we trained her into--.
Sarah Milligan 01:36
Right.
Bob Gates 01:37
--By herself, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 01:37
But that was pre-it was pre-formalized Community Scholars.
Bob Gates 01:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 01:40
I think, it seems like---I mean, it's easy to look up because, if I remember
correctly, you--you formally started to institute the Committee Scholars program after the Smithsonian was doing the Community Scholars and after like North Carolina and a few other maybe, one other place had kind of or was it somewhere--Bob Gates 01:56
Louisiana did it, so yeah.
Sarah Milligan 01:57
Louisiana, yeah.
Bob Gates 01:59
I mean, I was in Berea--still in Berea when Betty Belanus from the Smithsonian,
she was working at the Smithsonian then.Sarah Milligan 02:07
Okay.
Bob Gates 02:07
I think she still does. Sent out a letter asking state folklorists to nominate
somebody to be a Committee Scholar, in their state.Sarah Milligan 02:17
Oh, I didn't realize it went that far back.
Bob Gates 02:18
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 02:19
I should have--.
Bob Gates 02:20
And there was a photographer---in Berea, older photographer.
Sarah Milligan 02:25
Yeah.
Bob Gates 02:26
I can't think of the name right now. Brower--Bruner--Bruner, I think it is. His
daughter still got to business school. I think he's still going, but he--he's taken a lot of pictures of Appalachian things. Some of his books are really nice, but some of them--I mean, they're not as--you know--picture[s] aren't reprinted as well as they should be.Sarah Milligan 02:46
Did he do like a, like a coffee table book or something?
Bob Gates 02:49
Yeah, but yeah, but it's like, they didn't put the money into making the
pictures as crisp as they could be.Sarah Milligan 02:54
Yeah.
Bob Gates 02:54
So, I think that's kind of suffered, but his photography was great, and the
original pictures were great. So, I nominated him. I think I wrote up a nomination for him, but he didn't follow through on it.Sarah Milligan 03:04
Oh, and that was to go to D.C. for a summer institute, is that correct?
Bob Gates 03:08
Yeah, it was--she was calling it the Community Scholars and it was an--institute
probably three weeks, two weeks, or something like that. There's also been field schools that the American folklore--Folklife Center did--does--they've done for a while. I don't know if they still do it, and there's--this kind of a similar, so we kind of took the two ideas. Field studies were--field--what did I call it, field schools. I actually went to a state or an area and--and did the instruction, and I think there might have been one done in Kentucky. Later on, in Berea. I'm not sure, it might have been Indiana, where it was closest, and we sent some people--told them to go there.Sarah Milligan 03:51
That was still in the 80s, do you think?
Bob Gates 03:53
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 03:54
Okay.
Bob Gates 03:55
But I just--I remember we were trying to--we were putting together the idea of
community scholars as being, well go back a little bit. You know, I came from Louisiana and there was [were] all these regional folklorists out there, throughout Louisiana. There was [were] one that covered. Cajuns. What's his name?Sarah Milligan 04:18
Barry [Jean] Ancelet.
Bob Gates 04:19
Barry Ancelet. There was one who was--a Native American who worked with Native
Americans, and another worked with boat builders. They were all over the state, Susan Roach up in northern [Louisiana]. So, when I came here, the idea was, boy, it'd be neat if we could do that here.Sarah Milligan 04:35
Yeah.
Bob Gates 04:35
And what we had is a lot of young folklorists at Western [Kentucky University].
Some established folklorists like Alvey was [were] still here in Lexington--Gerald Alvey, who had written a couple books about--a great book about folklife in the Bluegrass later on.Sarah Milligan 04:52
Yeah.
Bob Gates 04:52
And we were--I worked with him when I first got here. Did some things with other
people--but our plan was I was to try to, and it was reinforced by the advisory group I had, in the beginning was to--and it wasn't really a business plan, but it was a plan [chuckles] to have--to set up a network. And if we couldn't get more folklorists, I mean, we had--we also had Betsy Adler and Tom Adler. And there was--had been three folklorists at UK [University of Kentucky], who almost had a-- their own folklife program. Then, it was all disbanded because they didn't get tenure.Sarah Milligan 05:29
Yeah.
Bob Gates 05:30
So, they were all going different places. Tom ended up--Tom Adler ended up in
Owensboro as director of the Bluegrass Museum for a while--The International Bluegrass Museum.Sarah Milligan 05:41
Oh!
Bob Gates 05:43
Betsy was at the [Kentucky] Humanities Council for a long time. That--she's one
who wrote the grant that brought me here. But they all kind of got shifted around and kind of lost their focus of doing things, you go flying and--what's.Sarah Milligan 05:55
Susan Isaac.
Bob Gates 05:56
Susan Isaac--but and on top of that there wasn't any folklife society anymore.
And there had been one here, in the state. And when I was a student at Western, it was still going on and--and if I remember right. Well, at least a journal, Southern Folklore was part of--I think it had to do with that--.Sarah Milligan 06:17
Erika [Brady] was the editor of Southern Folklore; I think whenever they finally--.
Bob Gates 06:21
--When they--.
Sarah Milligan 06:21
--Stopped publishing it--.
Bob Gates 06:22
Oh, okay, but Cam Collins was very big into it, and when I was there, and--in
'83, and I think that's kind of when they were shutting down. Because I remember a meeting down at Western one time, and it was kind of a party thing, and a lot of these--I met these folk--I was just a student and I met--meeting these people and--they're talking about the Folklife Society--The Kentucky Folklife Society. And, you know, that was like all the other states folklife societies, where they write papers, and they get together once a year, and--.Sarah Milligan 06:51
Yeah, they had the--.
Bob Gates 06:53
--And they published--.
Sarah Milligan 06:53
--Journal of folklore--Kentucky folklore or something like that.
Bob Gates 06:55
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 06:56
They did have a journal.
Bob Gates 06:57
--That's what I kept--I kept thinking there's a connection between the Kentucky
Folklife Journal and--.Sarah Milligan 07:03
Southern---.
Bob Gates 07:04
Southern Folklore, I thought it kind of morphed into--.
Sarah Milligan 07:06
It might have, I don't know.
Bob Gates 07:07
And then they carried it on, they tried to make a little bit wider and more
academic and--probably better ask Betsy Adler about where that went. But anyway, there hasn't been [an] association here for a while.Sarah Milligan 07:21
Right.
Bob Gates 07:21
So, there wasn't this--it seemed like in '83, when I was---there was this
connection to folklorists doing things and sharing things. But so--I wanted to replicate that, and the best, way I thought--could do it was using the [Kentucky] Arts Council's grants programs and using students who graduated from Western. Try to get them into a project that brought--kept them kind of in Kentucky. Well--not--I don't know, probably 40% of the students are from Kentucky, maybe at the most or maybe 30%.Sarah Milligan 07:51
At the most, yeah.
Bob Gates 07:53
Yeah, we were trying to talk people from out of state to stay in here, you know.
So, it's a beautiful state, you know. So, the idea was--to try to get them--. I would annually write some kind of NEA [National Endowment for the Arts] grant to do a survey and we talked about the surveys and the surveys would be--I would get independent folklorists who just graduated from Western, to get their feet wet. And--and get them out there and work closely with Michael Ann [Williams] and the other professors down there, to see who they recommended. So, we had these projects like Kentucky River, Ohio River, Highway 23.Sarah Milligan 08:33
Highway 31?
Bob Gates 08:34
I was just looking at that--that was something we did with Barren River--you
know, we did some things with [Highway] 31. Some of them were more like just classes, doing projects and doing it for the festival. Other ones were real jobs, where they and--the real job--Folklorist in the Parks. Larry, and Curly and Moe. [laughs].Sarah Milligan 08:53
Larry Morrissey (??) is who you're thinking of.
Bob Gates 08:55
Yeah, it was Larry Morrissey and, and John K--and so--a couple other
folklorists, kind of got their start there and, I feel really good about that. But that is--I'd write those grants through here, and it wasn't fettered by, at that time, where the Arts Council could only write one grant. And the National Endowment for the Arts had its own folk arts division, and they--their grants were just folk arts grants. Now it's really kind of convoluted, but--and--it's not as much money but we would get those grants and I'd get students. And then some of them we was[were]--we would get try--to say well, "okay, she's working on--" a like, who was that down in--. [sighs] Lynn David, and who was Lynn David's friend who was out in. They were about the same age, and was kind of weird at Western that they had two older women in the same class who were good friend[s]Sarah Milligan 10:00
Oh, I don't know, I just know Lynn.
Bob Gates 10:02
Adele.
Sarah Milligan 10:03
I don't know Adele--.
Bob Gates 10:04
Adele.
Sarah Milligan 10:04
Mink?
Bob Gates 10:05
No.
Sarah Milligan 10:06
No.
Bob Gates 10:07
She's out in Princeton still. She, she's, she's a good example of this, that
both of those people, and a couple other folklorists did a project--did a survey, like out in Greenup County, and the woman who did the survey out there. We got her a Folklorist in the School the next--got--helped her get that job. So, she stayed there and then for one summer, and then she stayed for a whole another half a year, two semesters, with the idea that maybe they'll get established and stay there. Morgan--Julia Morgan was in Ashland.Sarah Milligan 10:41
Okay.
Bob Gates 10:42
You don't know her.
Sarah Milligan 10:42
I don't know her either.
Bob Gates 10:44
And I thought she was gonna stay because she really liked it--it seemed.
Sarah Milligan 10:47
Yeah.
Bob Gates 10:48
But--what's her name in Princeton, she's still there. She got--did a survey and
then did a school project in--where's Eddie Pennington from? Princeton.Sarah Milligan 11:02
Princeton, yeah.
Bob Gates 11:02
And then--then she's now at the historic home there.
Sarah Milligan 11:07
In Muhlenberg County.
Bob Gates 11:08
No, it's--.
Sarah Milligan 11:09
That's not right.
Bob Gates 11:10
--Caldwell County.
Sarah Milligan 11:12
She's in Caldwell.
Bob Gates 11:13
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 11:13
But--.
Bob Gates 11:14
Princeton is [th]ere.
Sarah Milligan 11:15
Right.
Bob Gates 11:15
So, she, she got a great job out of that. I mean, she--she's happy there, but
it's not living on her folklore. Lynn David, she was down in Stearns, Kentucky. She did a--kind of a neat survey where it was with the Heritage Council, working together to do buildings and people. And then after that we got her--helped her get a Folklorist in the School, so she worked in [a] school. They did an exhibit down there, based on her research, it's still down there in the and--but again, she--you know, she went back to Maysville, where her family. Did you see somebody go the wrong direction?Sarah Milligan 11:51
No, police pull somebody over outside your window. Sorry.
Bob Gates 11:54
Oh, that's okay.
Sarah Milligan 11:55
I got distracted by the lights.
Bob Gates 11:57
Oh, I see people going that way. [laughter]
Sarah Milligan 11:58
Going the wrong way.
Bob Gates 11:58
And I start yelling but they can't hear me.
Sarah Milligan 12:00
Imagine that there's a building. I know. It'd be hard not to. So, well, Lynn,
and Lynn. David is yeah, she's still up, and she did the--.Bob Gates 12:07
Yeah--.
Sarah Milligan 12:07
The county survey of Fleming County, too, didn't she?
Bob Gates 12:09
Yeah, she did something--and she did that--and she did something with a project
we're still trying to figure out where everything is on---on that. But it was a grant---granted program through the [Kentucky] Arts Council. A project that went through the Folk Arts Museum in Morehead, and she helped do a survey.Sarah Milligan 12:26
Oh.
Bob Gates 12:27
I remember her sending that, you know, it was tighter when we wrote the grants,
and people went out and did the work, and we were supervising--.Sarah Milligan 12:36
Yeah.
Bob Gates 12:36
--What they were doing. You know, we established--I would go and visit and kind
of see how they were doing and--.Sarah Milligan 12:46
Right.
Bob Gates 12:46
--Work with that institution. Because you always had to have a grantee who took
the money--.Sarah Milligan 12:51
Right.
Bob Gates 12:51
--And helped with it. But the ones that were--we did folk arts grants to,
those--we kind of, we didn't have as much control.Sarah Milligan 12:57
So, for example, instead of you writing the grant as a folklife program to like
the NEA [National Endowment for the Arts], that you were the sponsoring organization that then had people you were working with--partners you were working with. If somebody applied for grants with the Kentucky Arts Council, to do a project, that wasn't something that you were in charge of monitoring? You were just in charge of kind of advising as they felt like they needed, is that the difference?Bob Gates 13:20
Yeah, if we were, if I wrote the NEA grant, I'd look for partners, and the
partners, we sat down a lot of times and kind of hashed it out, say, "what do you get out of this? What do you want?"Sarah Milligan 13:30
Right.
Bob Gates 13:30
We wouldn't say--I mean that--.
Sarah Milligan 13:31
Sure.
Bob Gates 13:31
--We wouldn't say that, but that's what we were trying to find is how can we
make this a real partnership with you. That's kind of what I learned early--is that people don't do things for free--they, they want to get something out of it. So, those partnerships were pretty strong, I think and, and, and I'd like to go into some of those, after we're finished with the Community Scholar thing.Sarah Milligan 13:51
Okay.
Bob Gates 13:51
The idea of partnerships. But when we--when people wrote grants, our--our work
was more like, we can't be a partner with them so much, because they're writing a grant to the Arts Council. We can help them write the grant; we'll help them with things beforehand. And when they do the project, we're there to help them. But we can't--they can't say on their paper---well, some of them did, we're going to partner with, but it really wasn't good to have--for us to be a direct partner, because it looked like it was--you know, that we were favoring them in some way. So---and they got you kn--in the early days, it wasn't as clear cut as that and as different directors took over, it became clear you gotta. And that's that's--that's good. But I think when--when people wrote grants, we were assisting them more---giving technical assistance. And when---when people did partnerships, we were right in there with them, and they had an equal thing.Sarah Milligan 14:50
Yeah.
Bob Gates 14:51
Like the thing with KET [Kentucky Educational Television] doing "World of Our
Own." That was a partnership, pretty much.Sarah Milligan 14:59
Did they instigate that, or did you instigate that?
Bob Gates 15:01
They did.
Sarah Milligan 15:04
I don't remember.
Bob Gates 15:05
I can't--Ira somebody Ira--he was their--kind of their grant writer at KET. And
he and Carpenter, you know who I'm talking about? She was there for a long time.Sarah Milligan 15:15
[Sighs] No, I don't know.
Bob Gates 15:18
She was an educational part of--.
Sarah Milligan 15:20
Okay.
Bob Gates 15:21
--And--and she brought us in and asked me if I could help. They were going to
write--they wrote the NEA grant, and we were the partner.Sarah Milligan 15:27
Okay.
Bob Gates 15:27
We'd been partners like that with a lot of things, especially Appalshop. The
thing about Appalshop is I usually see the partnership the day before the grants [laughs]. And so, I don't really consider a lot of Appalshop ones. The--what's it called, [William R.] 'Pictureman' Mullins was the biggest partnership we had with him, I guess, but.Sarah Milligan 15:47
Right.
Bob Gates 15:48
The other one, and we've helped with other things, but it's--they're a lot more
independent than any--they know what they're doing, and they don't need--they just need our name on paper sometimes.Sarah Milligan 15:58
Yeah, I get that.
Bob Gates 15:59
But that--I mean, Pictureman Mullins was where they really said, "yes, we need a
folklorist's input, and we're going to need your help with this."Sarah Milligan 16:05
Yeah, and you talked a little bit about that before about some of the--like the
logistics of that, and how--Bob Gates 16:13
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 16:13
--That project worked out.
Bob Gates 16:15
So, the grants, and it depended on--. Sometimes we would instigate a grant, with
a community thinking that that was--.Sarah Milligan 16:24
Yeah.
Bob Gates 16:24
---Going to develop into something we could share at the Folk Festival---.
Sarah Milligan 16:28
Right.
Bob Gates 16:28
--Or it would be the aims of--it would help at the aims.
Sarah Milligan 16:32
But you would have---so ,a lot of these grants though, would be for surveys or
projects that would employ folklorists that were right out of grad school, in the hopes that they would establish roots and establish this network of--.Bob Gates 16:42
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 16:43
--Folklorists in the state
Bob Gates 16:43
Yeah, and when that didn't work, well--.
Sarah Milligan 16:46
It didn't work.
Bob Gates 16:47
Well, they didn't stay that often, and the model for the Folklorist in the
School was kind of cumbersome, from my point of view. Because you had to, we had to fit ourself [ourselves] into a model that was made for artists, the artists. The Arts Council had a[n] artist roster and other states had done this--I was when I was in Louisiana, it was the same deal. You had to get artists on the roster, and to be a good artist in a school, you have to be able to kind of set up shop there. So, you so--you, if you're a potter, they'll give you a room at the school, and you set up your wheel, and you're there. And you have to be good with getting the elements of, of what the teacher wants to teach, you have to get that across, you know. So, you have to be good with presenting yourself to students. So, there's, you have to know your craft, you have to do that, you have to be able to share it. Well, then that was always developed--so, in order to, to see if artists could do that, they wanted to take you before teachers and see if you were with good teachers. I mean if you could do that part. They wanted to review you among peers, to see if you were a good artist, you know. So, there was like a three phase thing, and then on top of that, once you--they wanted to have this open, open--. So even if you wrote a grant, if you had a school write a grant, and that's what the school did, they wrote the grant. If you helped them write it, that didn't guarantee you were going to get the job. Because after--after you are accepted on the roster, and that group had gotten a grant--the school had gotten the grant, there was still this meeting down in Louisville, and usually at--it was usually at the Center for the Arts, at that time. And it was like, meet each other to see, do you want this one? It was like open interviews. So, even if you had worked with this group, you might not get the job. So--.Sarah Milligan 18:34
Because they might see someone that they think--.
Bob Gates 18:35
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 18:36
--Is a better fit.
Bob Gates 18:37
You as a potter, you might go to the school and say, "I'd like to work with
you." And then you get a teacher and a principal [to] say, "oh, yeah, let's do it. I'll--we'll write the grant, and we'll get you." And then after they got the grant, then John would invite them to Louisville and then they'd meet five other Potters--.Sarah Milligan 18:52
John Benjamin.
Bob Gates 18:52
John Benjamin. Yes--so, I mean, it really--it worked, okay for artists, but if
you got to folklorist putting that much time in.Sarah Milligan 18:59
Yeah.
Bob Gates 19:00
Because the folklorist really has to work with that community to say, "I'm gonna
document arts in here," and they got a lot of--[laughs]--and--and then, so we had to convert this. And it wasn't, it wasn't like, "oh, we're gonna change at all for folklorists." It's like folklorists had to fit into this.Sarah Milligan 19:15
Yeah.
Bob Gates 19:15
So, every year, we had to get folklorists on this roster to get approved, and it
was really hard. You go down to talk to students at Western [Kentucky University] who was [were] committed to getting into these things and talk them a year before they graduate into getting on a roster, that's not gonna help them until after they graduate.Sarah Milligan 19:32
Yeah.
Bob Gates 19:32
You know, they're gonna know if they're gonna be in the state and they don't
want to go--and some of them did go through it and we got some good ones out of it. But it was a--it was a hard sell.Sarah Milligan 19:40
Yeah.
Bob Gates 19:40
It was a long-term sell to get--get them on there. And then, I mean, we had some
great ones like Union County, where a woman from North Carolina, Amy Davis. She was--she graduated [from] North Carolina--at the Chapel Hill, and she came in and went through the whole thing. And you know, when you do this Artists in the School thing, you also had to go through the summer thing.Sarah Milligan 20:08
Like a--like the, from the Arts Council's point of view, like a training.
Bob Gates 20:12
Yeah, it was down at--.
Sarah Milligan 20:14
Faubush, right?
Bob Gates 20:14
--Faubush, yes, and it was like a whole week or four days, something like that.
So--and that's good because you got to learn the---the goals of what teachers need to--want--to get from you. You need to know how to present, it was great, Everybody--I mean, sometimes they had a little bit too much fun, I think. [laughter] but it was--it was fun, but it was good. And I always had--I always wanted to have--I was invited to be a trainer, too. So that just--not only the folklorists, but I tried, I would do a workshop for all the--all of them saying, "even if you're not going to do a folklorist of residency, think about the folk artists in your community, and maybe bring them as a guest in some time and this is how, as folklorists, we do it. And these are if you need my help," that that was my thing. I mean, it wasn't an official--no, everybody didn't have to see that but some of them did come to it, and it was good. But I remember bringing Amy in and meeting down there. And at the same time, I'm trying to get her a job in Pennyrile State Park. Because we wrote a grant for her to do--or they wrote a grant--and that's what I would--we would do with our folk arts grants is that we would put in there. One of the conditions, it wasn't a condition, but it was a suggestion that grants will be looked favorably upon, we didn't say it that way, if you have a folklorist involved, or a community and later--.Sarah Milligan 21:40
The recommendation was that you had a--.
Bob Gates 21:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 21:41
--Sponsoring folklorist.
Bob Gates 21:44
Yeah, that you have somebody involved. And then we went, if people picked up on
that we said, "you know, you really need to have somebody to do--if you're gonna do a survey, you really need a folklorist to do that." So, I would--.Sarah Milligan 21:53
Yeah.
Bob Gates 21:53
--Push that. So, Amy got this job to do a survey in--.
Sarah Milligan 21:57
Pennyrile.
Bob Gates 21:58
--[The] Pennyrile area. She identified--Willie Rascoe as one of, you know.
Sarah Milligan 22:03
Oh, yeah!
Bob Gates 22:03
She's--that's one of the people, she identified and a willow maker and gospel
acapella, and they put together beautiful a little directory of real-- and I've got one down here.Sarah Milligan 22:14
Like a book?
Bob Gates 22:14
A little book about folklife--in that area. But I remember getting in trouble
with John because--John Benjamin, because we brought her in and I said, "well, she's only going to be here at this time. This'd be a perfect time for her to go talk with the people from Pennyrile." You know, that's way over in the western part of state. Why don't--on one night that she's free, I'll take her down to Bowling Green, and we'll meet with the people, so we'll meet halfway so they can see--talk to each other and see if they want the job. Well, I didn't realize that she was supp--that was sponsor's night, where she was supposed to meet her school sponsor.Sarah Milligan 22:53
Oh!
Bob Gates 22:54
And I didn't ask him directly, I asked one of the other people and I should ask
John. I never saw him so mad. [chuckles] We got over it. But--but that's the kind of stuff I was trying to--.Sarah Milligan 23:07
Yeah.
Bob Gates 23:07
--Juggle is, how do you get these people to meet each other--and they did (??).
So, she--she had a Folklorist in the School. And then--she worked at Pennyrille and then the Folklorist in the School.Sarah Milligan 23:17
Yeah. So, to me, this is just another illustrative point. I mean, above and
beyond the logistics and all that it's, it just illustrates the point, again, as a public folklorist, your job was not just to go out and do stuff, your job is really to play logistics to make sure that stuff is getting done. So, it's, it's as much of you getting folklorists out there working in the field in the state, as it is you actually doing a lot of that work, if not--.Bob Gates 23:43
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 23:43
--More of that.
Bob Gates 23:44
Well, the Arts Council would have meetings--for a while they were [having]
annual meetings. And then they had these regional meetings sometimes. And I always saw that as an opportunity to try to meet people, to help them write grants and talk up, "boy, did you ever think about having a folklorist." So, you have to be---.Sarah Milligan 24:01
Yeah.
Bob Gates 24:01
--A salesman with this thing--and that's what you're saying. Because I
know--I've heard of a folklorist being hired at states and their first two years is going out and doing field work--. --By themselves. You know, and cutting them[selves] off, and then their program's gone. Because nobody saw them, where they were supposed to be working, and nobody saw anything they were doing.Sarah Milligan 24:13
Yeah. Right.
Bob Gates 24:21
So, I kind of took that to heart and, you know, I'm not really--I always thought
of myself as pretty shy growing up. I was real[ly] shy, and to get out there and--and talk to people on this--at forming partnerships was kind of fun for me. It was--.Sarah Milligan 24:40
Yeah.
Bob Gates 24:40
--Like a new thing.
Sarah Milligan 24:42
Well, I would say that's one of your strong skills is--as a salesman. I mean, that's--.
Bob Gates 24:46
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 24:47
--Always been one of the big contributions you've had is, especially out there
in the state, convincing people why they should try to incorporate folk arts into whatever it is that they're doing. And I mean, you've been successful at that, but you've also been good at finding people to fit in those slots as well. So, I mean, that's--I think that's what you're saying, too. You're describing, like how you actually have to go about doing that, and its very labor intensive, you're right.Bob Gates 25:16
You're a matchmaker sort of [laughter]. You're trying to figure out will---.
Sarah Milligan 25:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 25:19
--Will Larry Morrissey work good for this community? And will this you know--.
Sarah Milligan 25:23
Yeah.
Bob Gates 25:23
--And will this community, well this other folklorist may not, you know, so.
Sarah Milligan 25:27
Well, and you've won some and you've lost some on that--.
Bob Gates 25:30
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 25:30
--I would say but that you've got a good track record. So--so your you spent a
lot of your time negotiating all of that, like trying to figure out how you can get students to stay or how you can get them more ingrained in communities or communities more responsive to having folklorists. So, how did that--what you were doing there and the labor intensity of that and the success or non-success of that, you know, on different levels. How did that feed into you really starting to build the Community Scholars network?Bob Gates 25:57
Well, I think--you know, I always---I knew other people were doing community
scholars and--and went the AFS, American Folklore Society meetings and heard papers about it. You know, and made a Maida Owens was my successor down in---in Louisiana. So, she---she kept me abreast kind of what was going on down there.Sarah Milligan 26:09
Yeah. Because they were developing the community scholars down there.
Bob Gates 26:21
--They did some community--they did the institute. The summer institute model.
Sarah Milligan 26:25
They did the summer institute.
Bob Gates 26:25
Yeah. I remember, we were talking about, and I've been trying to get Heather--oh--.
Sarah Milligan 26:32
Stone.
Bob Gates 26:32
Stone to do this. Maybe I just need to do--it is--now the AFS is making
available all our past folklorist--what are they called? Public folklore newsletters.Sarah Milligan 26:47
Oh, yeah.
Bob Gates 26:49
And we did that for a long time.
Sarah Milligan 26:51
Do you not do it anymore? Did they stop doing that?
Bob Gates 26:54
Yeah, they kind of stopped doing it, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 26:56
Because Tim was the one that was in charge of it.
Bob Gates 26:57
Yeah, but before him, it was--it was like, you wrote it and sent it to somebody
else, I can't remember.Sarah Milligan 26:59
Yeah.
Bob Gates 26:59
And it was published, it was--it would come out and you'd have a thick thing it was--.
Sarah Milligan 27:02
Like a few inches.
Bob Gates 27:06
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 27:07
I remember writing it for you. Whenever I was here, yeah.
Bob Gates 27:09
You wrote some of them--and I, what was amazing is--Heather found one by
accident by just doing a search, and they just found it. But I told her that it--AFS just announced that they're all available.Sarah Milligan 27:22
So, they're all digitally--they're probably PDFed online?
Bob Gates 27:24
Yeah, so it would be good for us to look at some of those. Because that's kind
of how our--kind of like our annual--our biannual report of what we're doing.Sarah Milligan 27:32
That's a good point. Heather Stone is the---the archivist who's processing the
Folklife collections--. ---Right now.Bob Gates 27:37
Yeah. I think she's a little reluctant, because it's adding more paper to the
collection or something that.Sarah Milligan 27:43
It's probably adding a lot of time too, but---.
Bob Gates 27:45
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 27:45
--I'll go see it and--
Bob Gates 27:46
Since I'm going to be here another--till December I can (??)
Sarah Milligan 27:48
I was gonna say, what you can do is you could just keyword search for Kentucky
on every single one and then just print out each sheet and just give it to her on a file. That would probably be helpful.Bob Gates 27:57
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 27:57
Okay. Sorry, that's beside the point but--.
Bob Gates 27:59
But what was it--what was I talking--oh, that's--that's how I found out about,
you know, it would be kind of a bragging thing.Sarah Milligan 28:04
The public programs--.
Bob Gates 28:06
Yeah--
Sarah Milligan 28:06
--Newsletter.
Bob Gates 28:06
Yeah, it was [in] alphabetical order, so [laughs]---.
Sarah Milligan 28:08
Yeah.
Bob Gates 28:08
--Kentucky and Louisiana was [were] very close, and [chuckles] you know, I
wouldn't read them all but I read a lot of them. And then you start saying, "oh, God, they're doing that there, I ought to do this." You know [laughter] and that's, and that's the--what folklorists we're doing all the time is we just copied from each other. And, oh they're doing---doing the immigrants over there, why aren't we doing immigrants? So, you know [laughter]. So-- and--I always thought of AMS [Foundation for the Arts, Sciences, and Humanities] kind of that way too, sometimes. It's---is just--we're just bragging about what we're doing. And it's fun, I mean--Sarah Milligan 28:22
Of course! I like to think of it is putting ideas out there for everyone--.
Bob Gates 28:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 28:40
--To borrow.
Bob Gates 28:41
Yeah, yeah--you know but--.
Sarah Milligan 28:42
But sometimes I'm saying, "my idea's the best, you all should borrow my idea". [laughs]
Bob Gates 28:46
That's right, yeah. I learned a lot from that, and I bragged about what we were
doing. But I was seeing--I was talking about Folklorist in the Schools, so much because that was kind of dying.Sarah Milligan 29:02
Yeah.
Bob Gates 29:02
It--the, you could get a some--you could work a semester, or you could get a
grant to do two semesters, so you'd almost be there [the] whole year. If you were folklorist, and that was my plan. Well, when they--when the Arts Council decided they had to cut back and that wasn't a model anymore they wanted to support. They don't do residence--long term residencies now. It's like two weeks, four--maybe a month. They're called TIP Grants, Teacher's Incentive Programs. But the residencies are gone, and that really was kind of the death thing for, for me saying, "you know, this is not going to work--we're not gonna--we don't I can't get," and NEA [National Endowment for the Humanities] is kind of dropping back. NEA is kind of, I don't know if it's the same time but there wasn't [were not] many grants I could get every year. And I wasn't running out of ideas, but I just, we had kind of gone from river surveys, regional surveys, big surveys to county surveys, and then--I guess we're getting involved with the festival. And, and we were writing grants that [would] work with the festival. But I don't know, we stopped writing so many grants and started, I just--I've just--it became clear to me that we're never going to get as many folklorists out there. And what the heck, folklorists work good with communities. That's what they really need to do anyway, why not get Community Scholars more involved in documenting their own culture? And then the idea came, okay, we're documenting these community scholars, let's go back and getting students to work with them. So, we did more of that, you know, like you did in Lincoln County. You were--.Sarah Milligan 29:28
Right. Yeah.
Bob Gates 30:34
--You were involved a lot with that one.
Sarah Milligan 30:36
So, the RHDI area and all that.
Bob Gates 30:40
What, what does RHDI stand for?
Sarah Milligan 30:41
Rural Heritage Development Initiative? [laughter]
Bob Gates 30:44
Yes.
Sarah Milligan 30:46
That's right, it’s a Kellogg grant.
Bob Gates 30:50
Yeah--and, you know, there---was more, so we decided to work on a model like
that, and I think we, we trained Sue Massek as kind of a community scholar. We may have conferred that on her later on. What we were doing is, at one point, we weren't getting enough folklorists from Western to be on the rosters. You know, I was telling I had to go down and get them a year ahead.Sarah Milligan 31:14
Right.
Bob Gates 31:14
So, people like Sue Massek, who had heard my talk, and who was pretty much a
folk artist, and musician, also was very interested in local community. So, she's like, "well, can you train me?" And I said, "well, yeah, but," okay, so we had to talk the Arts Council into adding community scholar or some kind of scholar, some kind of researcher, that wasn't a folklorist. So, we trained her-so she did a couple of Folklorists in the School programs. But it was still designated through you all. Yeah.Sarah Milligan 31:23
It was--it may have been pre what you called Community Scholars --but you had
some sort of designation that--.Bob Gates 31:36
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 31:36
--Worked through you to train.
Bob Gates 31:49
I mean, it wasn't unusual for me to bring a couple people in, individually--.
Sarah Milligan 31:55
Right.
Bob Gates 31:55
--In the office and, and just go through, the same things they were doing with
Community Scholars, not as deeply, but, but as one on one. And it was--I was teaching them how to interview. I was teaching them how to do field work. Sometimes they would go out with me and watch, you know, kind of shadow me. So, they were learning that way. And then we could say, "this person should be uh," I don't know if we use the word community scholar or just cultural researcher.Sarah Milligan 32:02
Right. Yeah.
Bob Gates 32:20
But we were adding that on to the idea of the Folklorist in the School. So, I
think there might have been two or three besides Sue, that were actually not trained folklorists, but got onto that roster. And when we started doing that, we said, "well, let's do the whole community scholar thing, I think," and Judy Sizemore--I had always worked with her because she was--she was a person who could. Whenever I went in eastern Kentucky and did workshops, she was the one who said, "yes, that works. We can do that. We can do folklore here. We can," you know, and she would take the ideas and spread them, and that's where we got most of our grants. Through the--for folk arts grants, is people she talked to. Because she was a circuit writer, and her job was to develop grants.Sarah Milligan 33:05
Through the--the Arts Council. She was an Arts Council circuit writer.
Bob Gates 33:07
Yeah, and they had like, five or six of them throughout the state.
Sarah Milligan 33:10
Yeah.
Bob Gates 33:10
But never did I have any of them--there was a couple, well actually Bowling
Green, the one in Bowling Green's---Ritter, I think [is] her name and she was good. But they--a lot of were already as artists, and their allegiance was toward fine art more than--so when, when I would talk to about, "let's get them folk," they kind of [makes an agreeing noise]---they'd look at you, but they didn't really get it--.Sarah Milligan 33:35
Yeah.
Bob Gates 33:36
--As much, and they didn't spend most of their time trying to get those grants.
So, I was seeing all this success coming from Judy Sizemore. All these counties writing, especially people--extension agents.Sarah Milligan 33:49
Yeah.
Bob Gates 33:49
She was forming these partnerships with people who had never worked together
before. It was just amazing, and--and they were writing these great grants. And so naturally, I went to her when we talked about doing Community Scholars, and she came up with the idea of well, "that'd be great if you did a Community Scholars--that'd be great, Bob." [laughter] "Well, why don't we do it--what about doing it--you know, most of the people I work with can't leave--can't leave their communities for a whole week, to do a thing--."Sarah Milligan 34:19
Or four weeks, I mean--.
Bob Gates 34:21
--Or, yeah, a lot of these were two-week things. And so--and the one in
Louisiana was two weeks, and then they came back about a month later to--for another week to show what they did.Sarah Milligan 34:29
Oh, okay.
Bob Gates 34:30
Which is good, because---.
Sarah Milligan 34:31
Yeah.
Bob Gates 34:31
--A lot of--some of them had no follow up.
Sarah Milligan 34:34
But they still had to be able to take off.
Bob Gates 34:36
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 34:36
For at least a period of time.
Bob Gates 34:37
So, it really kind of---it kind of got you a socioeconomic group that were kind
of retired men and women, who had some money, and it was kind of a hobby for them.Sarah Milligan 34:47
Because, it cost money, didn't it? The institution or was it a (??)
Bob Gates 34:51
Yeah, I think--I think it did, I think and, and a lot of those institutions used
professors, and they were out of universities, and they--. So, you just had one professor come in and do a workshop on oral history and another [one] come and do one on photo--. Photography, and I guess they were good. I mean, it's a whole different thing from our model, because it's just me and somebody else and some addition thing, so.Sarah Milligan 35:07
Photography. You bring people in.
Bob Gates 35:18
Yeah, I brought people in, but it wasn't, it wasn't like, yeah, three or four
sessions sometimes.Sarah Milligan 35:23
Yeah.
Bob Gates 35:24
But theirs was like concentrated. You meet this person once, and you get their
expertise, and that's great, too. So, it was-- it was kind of a different philosophy. Ours is more hands on, I think, in a sense. And the nice thing about going to their community--and that's what Judy suggested is, why don't we do it in our community and have--have so many visits. And when we when--when you do the visits, we'll come back the next week, and then you can review what they've done and kind of steppingstone thing. [coughs]Sarah Milligan 35:51
So, the different model was more instead of having a continuous like two-week
kind of summer camp model, she suggested doing it on the weekends, primarily, and then, like going to their community for a day, and then coming back for another day, and then a week or you know, whatever it is.Bob Gates 36:09
Yeah--and yeah, I don't know if it was always six, or it might have been eight
at one time, meetings.Sarah Milligan 36:13
Yeah.
Bob Gates 36:14
I can't remember. We've got all the--.
Sarah Milligan 36:16
You've--yeah.
Bob Gates 36:16
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 36:18
You've logistically changed a lot of stuff over the years and played with it,
obviously. But--Bob Gates 36:21
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 36:21
--It was her idea that you needed to go into their community, in their timeframe.
Bob Gates 36:25
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 36:25
And, and be on their schedule.
Bob Gates 36:28
And we realized that not everybody wants to be a folklorist.
Sarah Milligan 36:31
Yeah [laughs]
Bob Gates 36:32
That a lot of them want to be--really historians or, or--.
Sarah Milligan 36:34
Or family historians.
Bob Gates 36:35
Family historians, or--.
Sarah Milligan 36:38
Yeah.
Bob Gates 36:38
--Document.
Sarah Milligan 36:41
Or historic preservation people or whatever.
Bob Gates 36:43
Yeah, document all the one--one-room schoolhouses, which I have a book over
there with the little--all the one-room schoolhouses in--what county was it? Oh, Harrison County.Sarah Milligan 36:56
I was gonna say, it was Cynthiana, wasn't it?
Bob Gates 36:57
Cynthiana, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 36:58
So, what was the first one that you formally did, do you remember?
Bob Gates 37:02
I kind of remember it was--.
Sarah Milligan 37:05
Well, I wanna I say it was down by Harlan County, but--.
Bob Gates 37:07
Manchester was--.
Sarah Milligan 37:08
Was it Manchester?
Bob Gates 37:09
I thought it was Manchester because--because I remember going down and they had
this log building, and it was in the winter, and it was cold as hell, [laughter] and we really didn't know what we were doing. You know, I did my 'What is Folklore' slideshow to begin with? And I did how to do oral history.Sarah Milligan 37:24
With actual slides. Don't forget to add that.
Bob Gates 37:25
Actual slides--.
Sarah Milligan 37:26
Yeah. Actual slides.
Bob Gates 37:26
--Which I still do. [laughter] And I remember, it was cold, and we met there,
and then went another place and then another place, but it was really kind of freelance. Trying to figure out what worked, and Judy and I was[were] thinking, "well, let's do oral history this time." And then after that one, some of the survivors, our graduates. [laughter] I was just thinking of her this morning, Gabrielle Beasley--. --Was one of them.Sarah Milligan 37:46
Yeah, I was thinking about her.
Bob Gates 37:55
She and a couple other women who had graduated in the first class, were kind of
my helpers for the next one. And what they were really doing was evaluating what I was doing. And--.Sarah Milligan 38:06
Did you know that did you--.
Bob Gates 38:07
Oh, yeah, I knew it--.
Sarah Milligan 38:08
--Ask them to do that.
Bob Gates 38:09
And I think the next one might have been in Paintsville. I got to--I'm
remembering meeting at the Holiday Inn there every week.Sarah Milligan 38:16
That sounds right.
Bob Gates 38:16
Yeah, and there was--you'd go there on a Saturday, and there'd be these fam--it
was like one of those superdome places where they have a swimming pool inside and everything. So, we'd have to walk past the pool and all these people jumping up and down. And we'd go to our room to do our [chuckles] thing. And it was like, don't get wet. Come on, let's get in here, and [laughter]. And I just remember--that was the one where I really felt like I was being evaluated. Because--and that was good, but it's like, and then we got back together. "Well, it was good, Bob but you talk too much. You got to have more interaction. You got to have hands on stuff." And so--yeah, so we started incorporating that, and that's when we started bringing more people in. And, and I remember after that, we did one in Harlan.Sarah Milligan 38:58
Harlan County?
Bob Gates 39:01
Hazard—Hazard.
Sarah Milligan 39:01
Oh, Hazard, yeah, you're right.
Bob Gates 39:02
Yeah, Hazard.
Sarah Milligan 39:02
Right. Hazard is Perry County, I think, isn't it?
Bob Gates 39:07
Yeah, yeah. We did it in Hazard and I think it was a big one. That was--that was
a big challenge because there was like, almost twenty in there.Sarah Milligan 39:16
Oh, wow.
Bob Gates 39:17
And it was hard—and hard to figure out if everybody was getting it and--.
Sarah Milligan 39:23
Do you remember the model that you're working at that point? Like were--were you
teaching oral history and then having them do interviews where you were viewing like all twenty individual's interviews at that point? Because that's labor-intensive.Bob Gates 39:35
Yeah, I think it'd be getting it was more--it's just whoever wanted to get up
and say something--who wanted to--who wanted to report what they did and play a little thing of it.Sarah Milligan 39:49
(??) Yeah.
Bob Gates 39:49
We didn't do them all.
Sarah Milligan 39:50
Yeah--.
Bob Gates 39:51
So, it was--.
Sarah Milligan 39:51
--That was probably more logistical.
Bob Gates 39:53
--Now--and it became stronger when you started doing it, right. People started
sending them in by email. To you, and--. Hmm, yeah.Sarah Milligan 40:00
But it--maybe that's not true but it seemed like you all kind of--. Yeah, I
think you all, and maybe I'm completely--miss remembering this, but I think you all hired me to kind of solidify the curriculum a little bit, is that right? Like, it seems like before you hired me, and it's only because I think you tasked me with this. I think before that, it was like Brent [Bjorkman] and Mark [Brown] and you and Brent, and there wasn't really anyone that was formally in charge of it. Well, that was--that was--you were hired as the community scholar coordinator, right? And festival--. That's what I remember happening.Bob Gates 40:17
Yeah, were you the fir--who was before you?
Sarah Milligan 40:23
It was Brett and Mark.
Bob Gates 40:38
Oh, really? Okay.
Sarah Milligan 40:39
Yeah, so Brent--.
Bob Gates 40:40
What about Joyce?
Sarah Milligan 40:41
Well, she was too but I mean---.
Bob Gates 40:42
I don't think she ever did Community Scholars, though.
Sarah Milligan 40:44
I don't, I don't remember getting that impression.
Bob Gates 40:48
Yeah, he probably was. But I don't remember him teaching--doing too much of the
teaching. Yeah.Sarah Milligan 40:48
But like Mark--Brent had been in charge primarily of the grants, and Mark. I
don't know what his--I mean, other than everybody doing everything else. But you know, everyone had kind of specific roles that--on top of everything. So, whenever Brent, left Mark moved up in charge of---so, maybe Mark was kind of in charge of coordinating the Community Scholars or scheduling stuff, I don't know. Yeah, I don't remember that.Bob Gates 40:53
It was---it got to be me for a while there when they were doing the evaluation.
Me and Judy and some of the other committee scholars, and then Chris Antonson (??) started helping out, too.Sarah Milligan 41:28
Right.
Bob Gates 41:28
But that was a little later, I think.
Sarah Milligan 41:30
He did the field work stuff.
Bob Gates 41:31
Yeah, well, I remember when we were in Harlan, that was when we had Chris
involved, because he was trying to--.Sarah Milligan 41:37
Down in Hazard, you mean?
Bob Gates 41:38
Hazard, yeah. Because I remember him trying to have the website--the Folk Web--.
Sarah Milligan 41:47
[Whispers] right.
Bob Gates 41:47
--Be the Community Scholar thing and had--everybody was supposed to log on to it
and do their homework on there. And that--we started trying to have discussions on there. That didn't work very well. but it--.Sarah Milligan 42:00
That's right.
Bob Gates 42:01
Remember, he was--he was doing a lot of that.
Sarah Milligan 42:02
Yeah, that had to been like 2002, 2003?
Bob Gates 42:06
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 42:07
Yeah, because I started working for you January 2005, and you'd been doing that
at least a year or two. Because the website needed a complete redesign, whenever I started in--2005.Bob Gates 42:17
Yeah, so Chris was--.
Sarah Milligan 42:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 42:20
That early, huh.
Sarah Milligan 42:21
Yeah.
Bob Gates 42:22
Because I remember, we were frustrated with it, because people were putting
their bios on there and, but it didn't--it was hard for--some of them have good computers, you know, couldn't get on it, and they were getting frustrated.Sarah Milligan 42:36
And nobody had broadband, I'm sure.
Bob Gates 42:38
Yeah, and, you know, now it's probably--would have been a better time and doing
some homework, you know.Sarah Milligan 42:44
Maybe not, as far as the speed. Maybe.
Bob Gates 42:44
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 42:49
Oh, interesting, yeah.
Bob Gates 42:51
Well, I remember Chris came to that--came to one of those meetings and--and
talked about filed work, but also did the-- was behind the scenes on that. He should have got credit for that stuff, toward his---.Sarah Milligan 43:04
That's not what he needed credit for, he had plenty of credit.
Bob Gates 43:06
Did he?
Sarah Milligan 43:07
Yeah, for that sort of stuff.
Bob Gates 43:09
He just didn't write. But I mean, writing, doing community scholar stuff, that
should count for some of that, don't you think?Sarah Milligan 43:17
I don't think I'm gonna go in [to] that on the record. [laughs] I don't want to
be wrong.Bob Gates 43:21
Right, okay. I don't know, but he was a good--he was good to work with. Except
for the one time he forgot to be there. [chuckles] I think that was in Paducah.Sarah Milligan 43:31
Oh, I remember Sarah talking about that.
Bob Gates 43:33
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 43:33
That's right.
Bob Gates 43:33
Where is he?
Sarah Milligan 43:34
Yeah, right. Yeah okay, so, you were--you were pulling people, and I mean, it
seems at that point, you were really just trying to figure out what people wanted and what they needed and how they needed to learn stuff.Bob Gates 43:45
Yeah, and people were getting turned on by it, like Jean St. John, in northern Kentucky.
Sarah Milligan 43:52
That's right, you did--.
Bob Gates 43:53
We did three of them there, over the years.
Sarah Milligan 43:55
Over the--yeah--over the--.
Bob Gates 43:55
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 43:56
-Last decade, but you did---the very early ones were primarily in eastern
Kentucky, it seems like. Because of the association with Judy Sizemore and that she was involved in coordinating them.Bob Gates 44:06
Yeah, then we said, "we need to get out west--or how can we do," we--went
went--we did one at Western--in the log cabin.Sarah Milligan 44:13
Which was the first one I did--. --With you.
Bob Gates 44:14
Okay. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 44:15
That was the first thing I ever did with you.
Bob Gates 44:18
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 44:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 44:19
That went pretty well.
Sarah Milligan 44:20
In Bowling Green, because we had--.
Bob Gates 44:21
Yeah, we used Erica, and we went through the archives with somebody else.
Sarah Milligan 44:25
Yeah--yeah, we started incorporating, kind of formalizing some that stuff.
Bob Gates 44:28
Michael Ann took us out to the--what do you call it?
Sarah Milligan 44:31
The Hart County house.
Bob Gates 44:32
Hart Co--yeah, so--.
Sarah Milligan 44:34
Yeah, yeah, that's right, and we had00it was primarily---almost--well, it was
almost exclusively African American.Bob Gates 44:40
I think the neat thing about the Community Scholars was that we--we tried to
learn something from each one we did and incorporate in the next one. So, they all--I think they always got better.Sarah Milligan 44:48
Oh, no, I 100 percent ag---I mean, I--even just the few--two years that I did
it--that I coordinated it, I think we did---.Bob Gates 44:56
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 44:56
[Counting] One, two, three, four--I don't remember how many. We--did a lot. --We did--.
Bob Gates 45:00
We were doing two a year, weren't we?
Sarah Milligan 45:04
Maybe three.
Bob Gates 45:05
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 45:06
We were cranking them out.
Bob Gates 45:07
Well, I remember going to the Arts Council and Jerry Comb[s] was director, and
it was like, "we're scaling down, we got to figure out what everybody does--what we really want to do this year, what can we--what's important to your program?" And I think--I don't--I just remember pitching Community Scholars being this thing that the Arts Council needed to support. Because it's it, it gets the artists that aren't covered by other---other brands. It--it gets communities involved that aren't usually involved in Arts Council there. And they bought it and ever since and the Arts Council--Sarah Milligan 45:51
Oh, that's true.
Bob Gates 45:51
--Has been a supporter of it. What?
Sarah Milligan 45:52
I said, "it's true."
Bob Gates 45:52
--It really surprised me--what?
Sarah Milligan 45:53
I said it was true, too.
Bob Gates 45:55
It was true.
Sarah Milligan 45:56
You were hitting those underserved communities?
Bob Gates 45:58
Yeah, it's, I just, it's been always hard, because the status of the folklorist
in the Arts Council's has never been really strong. When I've [I was] there. It's just--and it's part of my personality--I just--I guess, I shrink when I, when I have all these other program managers in a, and it's always been that they're in another building. And we're, we're going over there to--.Sarah Milligan 46:20
Because you're---you're physically located in the [Kentucky] Historical Society,
in your offices, but you're not only staffing--.Bob Gates 46:26
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 46:26
--You have your staff there. So, when you go over there, they see you twice a week.
Bob Gates 46:30
You know, I think it's hurt the program, in some ways. Because it's, you can see
other states like Alabama, where Joe-- Joey is part of the Arts Council. I mean, he--.Sarah Milligan 46:44
Right.
Bob Gates 46:44
--is they wouldn't think of getting rid of that program, because they see it as
so integral to what they do. We've always been seen as kind of an add-on over there.Sarah Milligan 46:53
I--.
Bob Gates 46:54
I never knew how to get around it.
Sarah Milligan 46:56
Well, I would say that you all have definitely been stretched more. That's just
a[n] observation, it may or may not be true, but it seems like you're stretched more. Because you're--you are full time staff with two state agencies, and you not only do staff meetings for two things, you do all the initiatives for both places, you--you know--.Bob Gates 47:16
Yeah--.
Sarah Milligan 47:16
--You're trying to be integrated in two different locations, and it's really
hard to be 100% involved. When you're--.Bob Gates 47:24
When we were---.
Sarah Milligan 47:25
--Don't have two--.
Bob Gates 47:25
--If we were just over there doing it.
Sarah Milligan 47:27
Maybe.
Bob Gates 47:28
Everything we'd do would get credit at the Arts Council, instead of the shared thing.
Sarah Milligan 47:32
Yeah.
Bob Gates 47:33
It's important as--
Sarah Milligan 47:34
It gets--.
Bob Gates 47:34
--The inde--yeah, and I think that's part of it, too.
Sarah Milligan 47:37
But I mean, it's a model that I think is--you all have benefited from in some
ways, but it's also been a stretch and a struggle in some ways, too. So, I mean, there's, there's different ways to look at it, but--well, anyway. So, but you have done tons of programs through the Arts Council. I mean, they, I think historically, they--they look at some of the things you've done is, you all have--have been the only way that--only group that has reached a lot of their constituents that they actually rely on now. I mean, think of stuff like Diane Simpson, you know, like traditional artists, or people that are-- that are teaching craft-based arts initiatives in rural areas. They got involved almost as much because you all reached out, as because they actually felt that they had a foothold within the Arts Council community. I mean, they definitely do now.Bob Gates 48:31
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 48:32
But, um, but I mean, you can take a lot of the credit for that, and she's a
community scholar, you know.Bob Gates 48:38
Diane Simp--?--I'll see her today, actually.
Sarah Milligan 48:41
Oh, tell her I said hi.
Bob Gates 48:43
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 48:43
Tell them Brenda said hi.
Bob Gates 48:44
Okay.
Sarah Milligan 48:45
Anway---so, so yeah, you--you developed that into a really strong program, but
what about whenever you would go other places. Because I know you presented on it several times to like the AFS group and you got multiple calls about how you created the successful program, of Community Scholars. Because you are one of the most successful community scholars groups, or coordinators or developers or whatever, out there.Bob Gates 49:13
Well, I think the--the fact of going in their community and, and getting a
different kind of person, who--I said earlier, socioeconomic. That only the richer people could do that, I guess, and the people we've got, when we go in their community is a wide range. Sometimes it'll be a newspaper writer, an older guy doing a newspaper, maybe or maybe it'd be a young person who does this--who is just interested in doing, so it's a neat blend. And the one in Louisville last month was incredible, because it was different ethnic groups involved, and different age groups. Really young and really older people, too. So, it's like these are people who still live in their communities and like their communities and stay there. And I think that's--that's what made us strong and different from other ones--.Sarah Milligan 50:09
Yeah.
Bob Gates 50:09
---In a sense. Alabama's got a good one. They--I mean, that's one of the ones
we----we talk with, but I don't see the longevity there, that we get with ours.Sarah Milligan 50:20
What do you think that the community scholars that have gone through this
program, I mean, what did they expect out of it whenever they start, and do they actually--do you think that they get those expectations fulfilled?Bob Gates 50:32
Well, I think in the beginning, people didn't know what it meant, and they were
thinking, is--that they were going to be a full-fledged historian or—or it was just going to be more genealogy, things like that. I think the name has, has meaning to people now, and so they understand that they're going to be a certified community scholar, and that gives them the opportunity to do other things they haven't done. To be kind of a consultant in their area. I've, I've been to meetings where I don't think any of them knew I was there, but when they were introduced, they would say, "I'm so and so and I'm a community scholar." [chuckles] You know, so that was really cool. Because they---they see it as something that adds to their resume and adds to their, their skills of what they can do. And some of them have done great projects afterwards. We encouraged it with some grants at one time, community scholar grants, but some of them have gone past that and don't need that, and some of them go to you for oral history grants, right?Sarah Milligan 51:42
They do, yeah. Well, that's the other question, whenever you decided to make a
formalized program in response to the fact that you didn't have this really strong network of folklorists in the state, do you feel like the Communities Scholars Program has done what you kind of set out to do, by developing that network of people you can call on?Bob Gates 52:03
Yeah, I think it is. It's, it's not as--you know, if we had grants in every
community, where they were doing a folklife survey, or doing a project, about the local history and culture, that'd be great. And if every one of those community scholars could do that---that'd be wonderful, but you know, we learned early that some personalities are great for that, and some personalities, you say, "hmm, I don't know if they should be a community scholar." [laughs] Well, that's--not a community scholar, but I don't know if they're--you know, six weeks isn't enough to find out if you're a good field worker.Sarah Milligan 52:45
Right, well, I mean, I also remember, one of the AFS panels, you went to where
you presented community scholars, and some of the folklorists there said, "I really don't like field work. It would be awesome to have somebody that really liked to do that, that I could contract and do that for me."Bob Gates 52:58
Really, yeah. Okay, ,yeah.
Sarah Milligan 53:00
So, I mean, you know, there's strengths in other things. Not everybody has to be
a great field worker, but they could be good.Bob Gates 53:06
Yeah, I think they come out of this knowing that they know what folklore and
history and culture is all about. So, they, they awaken to that. Because we drum that into them, but they also know how to go out and do an interview with somebody and that field work is more than just doing an interview. It's putting together a whole idea and project and working with other people. So, yeah, I think it's, it's, we've been able to use community scholars in projects, not use them, but work with them--.Sarah Milligan 53:36
Utilize.
Bob Gates 53:37
Utilize, I mean that [laughter]--is that different than use?
Sarah Milligan 53:39
Use sounds so dirty.
Bob Gates 53:41
Yeah, [laughter] we'd be able to work with them and partner with them on things.
And I think that's, you know, some of them have become folklorists. Didn't--.Sarah Milligan 53:52
Have gone on to get--.
Bob Gates 53:53
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 53:53
--Master's degrees.
Bob Gates 53:54
What's her name?
Sarah Milligan 53:55
Teresa?
Bob Gates 53:56
Teresa Osbourne.
Sarah Milligan 53:56
You mean Teresa Osbourne
Bob Gates 53:57
She was a community scholar and became a folklorist and--.
Sarah Milligan 54:01
She did.
Bob Gates 54:01
And, well, one--who's the African American woman from---.
Sarah Milligan 54:06
Maxine.
Bob Gates 54:07
Maxine.
Sarah Milligan 54:08
Maxine went through community scholars--.
Bob Gates 54:09
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 54:09
--After she had--
Bob Gates 54:10
Yeah, she did, but there are other ones that have said, "oh, I want to keep
doing this." So, you know, and I've always felt a little worried about what the academics at Western felt about community scholars. I tried to get them involved and sign--. --Yeah.Sarah Milligan 54:10
--Her master's. What were--.
Bob Gates 54:31
--Off on this.
Sarah Milligan 54:31
What were your worries?
Bob Gates 54:33
Well, it is same thing that you would see on AFS--not AF--Publore, public sector
listserv. When early--a couple of times, I posted jobs on there for--.Sarah Milligan 54:52
For like contracts?
Bob Gates 54:53
--For contracts, or like the--I think it might have been Highway 2--no, Highway
23, yeah.Sarah Milligan 55:01
Yeah.
Bob Gates 55:01
That project where we had four folklorists working in the communities out there,
and I think Doug Day was one of the guys that started a controversy about, why are you hiring these students from Western? Why don't you hire us seasoned folklorists? You know, who want a lot of money and don't complete our projects, you know. [laughter] He didn't say that part, but that's kind of, we couldn't afford that.Sarah Milligan 55:24
Yeah.
Bob Gates 55:25
But then his response was, "well, why don't you ask for more, and you know, get
these--get people like me, who are great and," and I always felt like [sighs]. I felt like I started out as a community scholar in Cincinnati when I was--I was getting training wherever I could. The Newberry Library, I went there for a week. I watched other people doing things. I brought Lynwood Montell up and learned from what he did, you know. We were using grants to bring people as consultants, but I felt I was really a community scholar. I had no training in history or folklife at that [point], but I was interpreting people's culture. So, I've always respected that people can do that, if you give them the tools. And so I never got in an argument with Doug about it, but that was, I knew that there was a contingent of people in the field, who had spent lots of money to be folklorist. Two years, sometimes it gets your grad--your master's degree, and I did the same thing, and you know, they get certified. And, and I always felt like, you know, maybe these community scholars are an insult to them, that they're taking their jobs away from them. They're not really and that--that wasn't what I was trying to do. I was just trying to have local people who, who knew how to work on things. And--and I think the project you worked on was a good example of there are local people who can work with folklorists, right?Sarah Milligan 56:52
yeah--which--oh, the Rural Heritage Development Initiative?
Bob Gates 56:55
Yeah, I mean, that was--the next step is--.
Sarah Milligan 56:56
Yeah.
Bob Gates 56:57
is these Community Scholars, we're not just making them work by themselves, they
can work with other folklorists and--.Sarah Milligan 57:02
Yeah.
Bob Gates 57:03
--And do projects together.
Sarah Milligan 57:04
And that project was different because we trained a class--a group of community
scholars and put them through everything and then had the option for them to apply for a bucket of money for a specific survey project. So, they could apply for funds to survey their county for specific things we were looking for, but then, they were supposed to do X amount of interviews, but they were also the community liaison for folklife students at Western, who came up and worked with them, under the direction of Michael Ann. So, it was partnering students--.Bob Gates 57:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 57:40
--And community scholars. Community scholars as being the local scholars and
they [were] kind of the gatekeepers, and the whatever in the field, and then these folks study students who were doing a lot of field work along with them, correct.Bob Gates 57:52
Did you ever it evaluate and see what--?
Sarah Milligan 57:56
No, because we finished phase one right before I got the oral history commission job.
Bob Gates 58:01
Okay.
Sarah Milligan 58:01
So, it was right in that transition?
Bob Gates 58:03
Okay.
Sarah Milligan 58:04
That you hired Sarah, so.
Bob Gates 58:05
I've heard like Alicia was one of the students, and she was candid about how she
thought it was hard to work with the community scholars and--.Sarah Milligan 58:14
I think some had better---better--.
Bob Gates 58:15
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 58:15
--Experiences than other[s] for sure.
Bob Gates 58:18
Yeah, I'm not going to say that her word is--is [laughs] the all together. But I
can see--that was a good idea. And I would even--.Sarah Milligan 58:28
Yeah.
Bob Gates 58:28
--I guess my dream was kind of doing some projects like what the
Smithsonian--not the Smithsonian, American Folklife Center, did in New Jersey and other places, and Colorado. Where they did these big--these surveys, but it was a team effort, and it wasn't just one folklorist doing it by himself. And that's how I kind of envisioned Community Scholars, is they're now trained to work on a team. They're not out there by themselves, and some of them had done well by themselves, but I think--that would be the next phase I would do, if Brent was going to follow up on this, I would do projects where you get some seasoned folklorists working and, and maybe mixing them with students is not always the best thing. It could--it could be good, but it could be you know, it depends on the student and--.Sarah Milligan 59:12
Of course--.
Bob Gates 59:12
--And how--
Sarah Milligan 59:13
--It depends on--.
Bob Gates 59:13
--And how they're supervised and how that works.
Sarah Milligan 59:15
It depends on the community scholar, it depends on the student, I mean--.
Bob Gates 59:18
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 59:18
--It's always personality-driven.
Bob Gates 59:19
Yeah, and I think that group was pretty good.
Sarah Milligan 59:25
It was.
Bob Gates 59:26
You--and Janet was involved with that, too. I remember you and I and Janet
driving down there.Sarah Milligan 59:29
Yeah.
Bob Gates 59:29
A couple times.
Sarah Milligan 59:30
Yeah, that's right, and we moved--we did half of the classes in one county, in
like, Washington, and then we did the other half in--wherever Lebanon is. We did one half in the Lebanon and one half in Lincoln County, right.Bob Gates 59:46
Yeah, I remember we were in the library across the road from--what's that big
factory where they--.Sarah Milligan 59:53
Amazon.
Bob Gates 59:54
Amazon, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 59:55
It's the extension office (??).
Bob Gates 59:56
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 59:57
Yeah, we two extension offices in there. I mean, that's another thing too. I
mean, you--you utilized a lot of your early partnership skills as well, in developing community scholars. Because you had to find part--local partners to host these events, as well as to help highlight and--and give kind of--.Bob Gates 1:00:16
What's--.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:16
--Experience.
Bob Gates 1:00:17
Yeah, what was her name, Potts?
Sarah Milligan 1:00:19
Amy.
Bob Gates 1:00:20
Amy Potts.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:21
(??) Potts.
Bob Gates 1:00:22
I mean, it was like--that was a good one because she was part--[an] active
partner in it. You know, we've had other places where we got the facility, but the person said, "yes, yes, let's do it here," but she never--.Sarah Milligan 1:00:33
Right. Amy was the RHDI coordinator.
Bob Gates 1:00:34
--Shows up for it. Yeah. She was great.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:38
She was great.
Bob Gates 1:00:39
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:39
She became the first one introduce herself and decided to stay in the class.
Bob Gates 1:00:42
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:42
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:00:43
I mean, that's what I hoped for, is partners that actually--. Actually, in
Paducah, we had three of the staff, at the Quilt Museum--.Sarah Milligan 1:00:51
That's great.
Bob Gates 1:00:51
--Took part in it. So, it's--.
Sarah Milligan 1:00:54
Yeah, well--.
Bob Gates 1:00:56
It kind of depends where you are--and--and each one's different. That's what I
liked about Community Scholars, each one's--you just can't--it's not like, oh, we'll just take this model and throw it here.Sarah Milligan 1:01:05
Right.
Bob Gates 1:01:05
You have to kind of figure out how you're going to get--who you're recruiting.
Sarah Milligan 1:01:08
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:01:09
What the best way--and the last one on Louisville was--went with the school
system there and in West Louisville. So, it was really getting the teachers from that local community involved and getting credit for them to come.Sarah Milligan 1:01:26
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:01:27
And that was interesting. They had like five of them come and they had to sign
in before they come in, to get their credit. And--they had a special person there. She was in a wheelchair, but she didn't go to the class, she was just there to sign them in. To make sure they got their--.Sarah Milligan 1:01:41
So, they got CEs Continuing Education Credits.
Bob Gates 1:01:43
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:01:45
Units, whatever----.
Bob Gates 1:01:46
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:01:46
--It was.
Bob Gates 1:01:47
I mean--.
Sarah Milligan 1:01:47
That's cool.
Bob Gates 1:01:48
They must have got a lot of credit, to do all six of those.
Sarah Milligan 1:01:50
That's awesome--that's--and see, that's like a great evolution of that as well.
Bob Gates 1:01:55
But I guess what I was getting I was, I had felt like, I wanted to make sure
Western felt good about it, too. Because I didn't want them to think that I was putting out mini folklorists or sudo-folklorist, and I think they're okay with it that. I know, well, I don't know--but--I, from you and other students who have come, that there had been discussions down there about it, that's part of the curriculum and--.Sarah Milligan 1:02:22
Yeah, I think it's part of--.
Bob Gates 1:02:24
Still when I hire somebody, I say, "well, what do you--[chuckles]--what was your
side on that?" [laughs]Sarah Milligan 1:02:28
But we also discussed the, you know, the function of the festival. We discussed
the function of surveys, so that's not a bad thing, but--.Bob Gates 1:02:36
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:02:36
---I'm sure it is--I don't remember what I felt like, but I'm, I'm sure it is
one of the things you are spending time and resources and money to get this degree that you're supposed to be able to do all those things with.Bob Gates 1:02:48
Can we turn this off.
Sarah Milligan 1:02:49
It's alright, we can pause it if you need to. Well, let's get back to this. All
right, so we we're back from a break. I guess we were--were we still talking a little bit about community scholars. And well, you talked about the fact that it fit your network. I mean, it fulfilled what you thought--but you were--you were conscientious that that, you know, folklorists were still being trained in a formal academic training at Western and that this wasn't replacing that, but this was sort of supplementing or creating better networks.Bob Gates 1:03:28
Yeah, and I think it's still good for the state to do these.
Sarah Milligan 1:03:34
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:03:35
There's still more people wanting it [coughs]. Every time we [coughs]--there's
an article about it, we get lots of calls.Sarah Milligan 1:03:42
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:03:42
Well, there's actually four on the burner right now that we could do.
Sarah Milligan 1:03:47
In six months?
Bob Gates 1:03:48
No, we can't do it in six months, but [laughter] there--that's what I'm gonna
give to Laurie is, is--these ones who want to do it.Sarah Milligan 1:03:57
Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:03:57
We can keep doing them.
Sarah Milligan 1:03:58
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:04:00
But I don't know if Western wants to do them. I don't know, but the Arts Council
want to hold on to it right now, so I don't know what's going on.Sarah Milligan 1:04:07
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:04:07
With that part. [clears throat] So--.
Sarah Milligan 1:04:11
Well, okay, so let's talk a little bit about some of the big partners that
you've worked with and some of the organizational things. You talked a little bit about how you formalized organ--or how you kind of formalized organizational partnerships. A lot of the time through grants. Whether you were awarding or whether you were looking for partnerships to do grants that you had been awarded. What--I mean, even generally speaking, what are some of the more successful partnerships that you've had or those stronger relationships you've had with organizations?Bob Gates 1:04:39
Hmm. They all seem like they've lapsed over the years, in a way.
Sarah Milligan 1:04:46
Well, maybe they have, a lot of them I think you can.
Bob Gates 1:04:48
Ah, I think you can renew them. You know we worked with the Deaf and Hard of
Hearing Commission, deaf or hard of hearing a lot, and that was neat. Because we--we helped them with deaf--what's that called? Deaf Fest and then we presented them, what's that?Sarah Milligan 1:05:00
Deaf Fest. That's a poster for it, right?
Bob Gates 1:05:05
Oh, okay. [laughter] Yeah, I thought you saw somebody out the door.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:07
No.
Bob Gates 1:05:08
Yes, the Deaf Fest. That's '96--.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:09
That's '96.
Bob Gates 1:05:11
Wow, '96.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:14
Were you working with them that long?
Bob Gates 1:05:15
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:18
August--
Bob Gates 1:05:19
Go--.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:19
Third, 1996, interesting.
Bob Gates 1:05:21
So, we worked with them before the folk festival.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:23
Interesting. You were still working with them for the--as consultants on the festival--.
Bob Gates 1:05:29
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:29
--When it started in 2005?
Bob Gates 1:05:32
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:05:32
Because Mark did a lot of that---that was his--.
Bob Gates 1:05:35
I remember going out to that one in Danville, and the family and, and just
seeing what it was like. Seeing--doing an ethnographic description of what was going on there. [clears throat] And that was pretty interesting--just seeing it the--it was a folk group in itself. And what were their aims? Did they want to make this a festival? That was a learning experience for not deaf people to--for hearing people, so that they would understand the culture more. Or was it more of an insider, "we're deaf, let's celebrate our deafness." And that's really, what it really was. Because everything was kind of designed for that kind of conversation, not much interpretation for the outsiders. And that's kind of where I always see us fit in, is can we help get the outsiders to understand a little bit more about what's going on in your group, if you want that. And they didn't really want that in the beginning. But then, as we worked more, it seemed like they did. And so, we helped them with Deaf Fest, do a little bit more--. Not just say, "we're deaf artists, but we're deaf artists and here's why--how we communicate and how we do this." It's kind of letting people into the insider's--.Sarah Milligan 1:06:53
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:06:53
--Part of it. So, we had a little hand in that, but we also help them present.
So, then they did it on the old--State Capitol grounds. And that was a big festival.Sarah Milligan 1:07:05
Deaf Fest?
Bob Gates 1:07:06
Deaf Fest, and I think we--we helped a little bit more with that. It was--it was
kind of hard sell. The idea that you're a folk, you're a group too, and people could benefit from understanding what you do.Sarah Milligan 1:07:19
It was a hard sell to the Commission for Deaf and Hard of Hearing.
Bob Gates 1:07:21
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:07:25
So, how did you make it? I mean how--did they invite you in, or did you go to
them and say, "we can help you add some things to this?"Bob Gates 1:07:32
Was that through the state park system, or was that an individual park by park
basis? I think they were writing some grants to the Arts Council, to fund some of this and--and Laurie, or whoever was up there at that time said, "have you thought about working with the Folklife Program," that's kind of how we got together. I liked working with him. We had these meetings, where some of their storytellers became--kind of did a narrative stage with the storytellers. So, it wasn't just them getting up and telling their stories--it was--they did that too, but also, okay, where did you learn--and why did you do this? And then we started presenting the art--them. And they also did one down at the Belvedere, I remember being involved with that, too. So that was a good one. You know, working with the----[Kentucky State] Parks, when we did the Folklorist in the Parks, that was a challenge. Well, when I wanted to write the grant, and I was kind of looking at what Bobby Fulcher had done in Tennessee. That Betty Blainess (??) wrote about in seasonal (??). I thought, "well, we could do this here, this is great." But---so, I wrote the grant to NEA, with their input. And I said, "we can get this grant if we do this before--together. I'll give you this money. Do you want--do you want to go ahead and do this?"Sarah Milligan 1:09:06
The state level like the--. Greenville?
Bob Gates 1:09:07
Yeah, yeah, we--I don't know how I knew them, but we got introduced, over at the
tower. They were on one floor, at the big tower, in the plaza. They had a [sighs]--it's broken down on the state level. They do--they have like a person who is in charge of all the naturalists. So, each park has a naturalist, whose job is to go and talk about snakes and fauna and stuff like that, and that's where I thought we fit in pretty well. So, I met with that guy, who was in charge of that, and a couple other people. Maybe the superintendent of parks, we talked about this, and they got me involved with--their first thought is well, "we can do this, but you need to have--each park is run by a park manager, and we got to get him or her involved. And you also get--gotta get the naturalist involved, to the buy into this." So, they sent me the parks that were strong--that their naturalist was really, really good. And--and the naturalist worked--the local naturalist worked pretty well--had good--was on good terms with their park manager. Because they couldn't say, you need--to the park manager, "you need to do this. They could say, "this is an opportunity, and if you wanted it, you need to work with the folklife program." And so that felt like Dean, I can't think of his name out--he was---he was at the Pine Mountain. And there was another one I knew--that I got introduced at Pennyrile State Park. And I think that's how I got to know him. And I did some programs before that--where, before we did Folklorist in the Park, where I just--I remember doing a training session for, for for a region--they had a regional meeting at--not Kenlake, at Green---. Greenbow--Greenbow State Park, yep. --And I was showing them how to do a narrative stage. And the idea is that you could also use people from your local community and present them. I don't know what the timeframe is, but I remember John Lozier, and his wife, who were right from that area. And I was--I had the sound system up there and I was introducing them and the range--these guys were getting into it, they--could see the value in it. But the funny thing was that John Lozier, who was kind of an egotist, in some ways. After I asked him a few questions, and he expounded on it and talked about how he learned how to play the fiddle. Now, his uncle--his grandfather would let him touch the fiddle, but he loved the fiddle tunes, and he picked up the harmonica and start playing these fiddle tunes. So, it was really good stuff. And well, his wife's on stage too, someone asked her a question. So, I started asking her about her tatting and traditions, and John gets up and walks around the stage. Because he's bored, he didn't want to listen to her talk [laughs]. And it was like, kind of the worst example of a narrative stage they could ever do.Sarah Milligan 1:12:30
Nice.
Bob Gates 1:12:31
But I remember doing that. So, we were doing some trainings, and I also went
down to Florida, and John Kay was down there working with--with state park people. So, this was after--after the Folklorist in the Park.Sarah Milligan 1:12:44
Oh, okay.
Bob Gates 1:12:45
Yeah, because I remember going down, down and, and seeing all these naturalists,
all together, getting drunk and--on Daytona Beach and--.Sarah Milligan 1:12:56
In Florida.
Bob Gates 1:12:57
How are we going to make an--impact [chuckles] on these guys.
Sarah Milligan 1:12:59
Nice (??).
Bob Gates 1:13:01
But I gave a program down there of the same thing, about how folklorists--you
can work with folklorists.Sarah Milligan 1:13:06
For John Kay to build better partnerships--.
Bob Gates 1:13:08
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:13:09
---With the naturalists--.
Bob Gates 1:13:09
Yeah, and John set it up.
Sarah Milligan 1:13:10
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:13:11
But with the Folklorist in the Park, it was talking to the big guys, up in the
tower and getting them involved and then, working with the naturalist and--and meeting with each one--going to each park and saying--they said, "you probably got a mes--you got a message from park and they said you're willing to do this, can I come out and talk with you?" So, we---.Sarah Milligan 1:13:34
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:13:34
--We went out and talked about how we could do it? Can you give them a room--the
folklorist a room? Can you do this? Can you put them on their schedule so they can document traditions in the local area? And they actually have a schedule for presenting that.Sarah Milligan 1:13:47
Okay.
Bob Gates 1:13:47
How would this fit with what your naturalist was doing? And it worked pretty
well, but the trouble was it worked until the NEA money ran out and then they didn't pick it up.Sarah Milligan 1:13:58
Right.
Bob Gates 1:13:58
So, you know, in a sense, it's kind of a failure, but it was a--it worked good
for that time period. And like I said, John Kay went on--to Florida, and then on the Indiana. He worked a lot with parks down in Florida and did a great job down there.Sarah Milligan 1:14:03
Right. Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:14:12
And Larry Morrissey went on to Mississippi and did great work there.
Sarah Milligan 1:14:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:14:19
He's still there. Another guy was at Natural Bridge, he went on and got his
doctorate in American studies, I think or--.Sarah Milligan 1:14:29
So, I mean, okay, so those are some partnerships, you talked about, too. You
mentioned some, you mentioned that you've worked in extension offices before. Do you consider that a group of--an area of resources for you or--.Bob Gates 1:14:44
I think on an individual basis and--and Judy tried to work--Judy Sizemore, tried
to get me involved, and I remember having a meeting at the Old State Capitol, when we were there. In a meeting room downstairs with a--it was kind of the higher uper--higher ups in the [Kentucky Cooperative] Extension Service.Sarah Milligan 1:15:06
Right [yawns].
Bob Gates 1:15:07
And trying to get them involved, but it really breaks down into finding
individuals, like the one in, oh [sighs].Sarah Milligan 1:15:16
Elliott County.
Bob Gates 1:15:17
Elliott County, yes.
Sarah Milligan 1:15:18
Glenda?
Bob Gates 1:15:18
Glenda Atkins.
Sarah Milligan 1:15:19
Gwenda Adkins (??)
Bob Gates 1:15:19
Gwenda Atkins, and people like that--that's, that's--you gotta go to their
meetings and find out what they want and work with [them] as individuals, rather than the big ones. Okay. I think.Sarah Milligan 1:15:27
What about the Folk Art Museum, you talked a little bit about a past partnership
with them and kind of an example, but that's one of those things--that I don't know, you could have a good partnership, or it could be a confusing partnership or--.Bob Gates 1:15:47
Well, when I was still at Berea, Adrian Swain, and Larry Hackley, we worked
together on some things. Larry Hackley was basicall--is still a representative for artists, for folk artists, and Larry Hackley took me out to see Linda--Minnie Adkins, and we spent the whole day going from one house to another, to another. Really filling me in on the concept that she had started a community of folk artists in that area, and that she was like, "look, I'm doing--I'm making money on this. You guys can do this. Why don't you do this? And did you ever think about sculpting?" "Yeah." And so in this one area, there was like five or six artists who all had been pushed by her. And I think later on somebody, just the other day, somebody said that Minnie sa--Minnie told her and interview that Adrian Swain didn't discover her, she discovered Adrian Swain. [laughs]Sarah Milligan 1:16:56
I bet she did.
Bob Gates 1:16:56
What's his--I can see thar, you know.
Sarah Milligan 1:16:58
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:16:58
Oh, and I told Larry Hackley that, too. When was that? Oh, it was--I was eating
with Larry Hackley, two weeks ago in Berea, and Judy, I invited you to come up and meet with us. Cause I--Larry wants to do something with [a] basketmaking exhibit.Sarah Milligan 1:17:16
Oh, okay.
Bob Gates 1:17:16
And so, Judy came and said that she had--been told by Minnie Adkins that so, that.
Sarah Milligan 1:17:24
She interviewed Minnie for the Highway 23 project.
Bob Gates 1:17:26
Yeah, and so Larry, he just laughed his head off.
Sarah Milligan 1:17:28
That is funny.
Bob Gates 1:17:29
It's fun--but Adrian took me out---Adrian was also an artist's representative
kind of. He was a researcher, but he had worked with Larry, and this is before the--it was a formal museum. I think it was still at--.Sarah Milligan 1:17:44
Morehead.
Bob Gates 1:17:45
Morehead, but it was in an old building, on campus. It may be--it may have been
even before that. I think he was a teacher there, but he hadn't formed it yet. So, he took me out to see the Kenny brothers, in Lewis County. That was one of the hardest interviews I ever did. [chuckles]Sarah Milligan 1:18:09
Why?
Bob Gates 1:18:10
It was winter, and it was cold out, and their house was heated up to 95 degrees.
And they had cans of you know, when you--when you're chewing tobacco, and you spit it out? Those cans were right next to the heaters, so the whole house just smelled like tobacco spit, you know. And [laughs] I'm in there trying to interview them. I think I went back when it was warmer and did this on the porch with them, because of--those pictures I show, in my slideshow. I was [outside] but--.Sarah Milligan 1:18:40
How did you reconcile that the folk art--I mean, even when they were just doing
research and starting, I mean, their definition of folk art is a little bit different from the way you are looking at it. Is that right or wrong, I don't know.Bob Gates 1:18:53
Yeah, I remember having to say this to him a couple times. He thought he was
doing what we were doing, and I said, "no, we're kind of different than what you're doing and=--." And I always use example that we study folk groups, and the art that comes out of those groups, and the aesthetics within those groups are shared by people in those group[s]. And then, I would give like boat makers as an example of is--you would not consider the boat that Raymond Hicks makes as being art. Maybe, because it's not fantastic--it's not the kind of this expressive art, and he really didn't. He really looked at a--folk art as being very expressive out of one person's life usually.Sarah Milligan 1:19:44
Like what could also be called outsider art, sort of. The single pieces--.
Bob Gates 1:19:47
Yeah, and I would--I would gently go into that area. Because I remember when I
was at Western, we had this whole thing about the all the definitions of folk culture and historian---art historians have a whole different viewpoint of folk art than we do. So, I knew that where he was coming from, and I so, we talked about outsider art and expressive art, not expressive art, what do you call it? And the definition, he admitted that a lot of these guys were kind of--never had done this before, and they got hurt or something like that, and they had retired early, and then they got God--they had visions, and visionary art. It was another definition. So, we discussed this a lot, that--that is a great folk art and, and it's called folk art, but we have--I have a wider definition, and our definition includes all kinds of groups. It includes art that you would not put on your walls. Like the boat or the, the guy on the river who makes the bumper. You know, that's, that's not--and he admitted that, but you know, what's kind of weird about it is, after the museum got started, they still brought in exhibits that featured things that were more our definition. And they--but their basic collection was really-- --The single pieces. So, it's like, we never made that bridge, and I think that's been okay.Sarah Milligan 1:21:19
Yeah, I just, you know, it's--. --One of those things I--that's a--that is a
continual conversation about. Because---because what you were looking at was more based on the community aesthetics. Whether it was a community of pilots or boat builders or a community as in physical community. And their aesthetics, versus one person who might be doing crazy art, that's based on visions or whatever. That--that most of the community doesn't actually consider representative of their aesthetics, but--.Bob Gates 1:21:20
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:21:50
--It's folk art in a different way.
Bob Gates 1:21:51
And I always used that in my slideshow, I'd say--.
Sarah Milligan 1:21:54
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:21:54
--I'd show the pictures of Noah Kenny's dolls and set--or figures and say, "if
we went up in the neighborhood and asked people what they thought of was art, they probably say he's crazy." I mean, and they would. But on the other side, I made the concession to him that yeah, in a sense, ---their--they learned stuff from, from other people in their community. They didn't just learn how to carve, all of a sudden. They had already carved but their subjects changed, and became more within them, and I think that gets into the Michael Owens [Owen] Jones book about chair makers, is that there's not one folk art--there's not one community that you pull from. There's thou--hundreds of them--.Sarah Milligan 1:21:54
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:21:54
--And a lot of your own personality gets into the folk art. So, it's never clear.
Sarah Milligan 1:22:45
Is that the art in everyday life, or whatever it is. I mean, that's the general
theme of that.Bob Gates 1:22:53
What, what--Michael Owen Jones' thesis, what--was it the chair maker? I always
came away from it--what the main thing was that you--that we as folklorists think there's communities’ arts, and all these stages comes out of there, but what he was saying is no matter--you know, this chair maker came right out of the community. He was making chairs, just like his grandfather, but--.Sarah Milligan 1:23:13
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:23:13
--But then he started making these chairs that were very psychological. Like the
ones that enclosed him, like almost a coffin.Sarah Milligan 1:23:20
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:23:21
The bookcase chair and things like that, and they were pointing to his anxieties is--.
Sarah Milligan 1:23:25
Right.
Bob Gates 1:23:25
--Is [Are] his psychological little things. So---.
Sarah Milligan 1:23:28
Was it Chester--something?
Bob Gates 1:23:29
Yeah, yeah, Chester, and there was a movie that Appalshop did about him, and
that was--. So, I guess our compromise was, [chuckles] he's got money--he's got he's got this thing funded--they've got money, and it's a good, good thing. It's folk art, and I'm not going to fight the battle about you shouldn't be calling this folk art. You know, this--.Sarah Milligan 1:23:51
Right.
Bob Gates 1:23:51
--Shouldn't be the museum of outsider. Because there's a whole different way.
So, we--we made this compromise I guess, that there's different definitions for folk art. Mine, is this yours is that, and we can---we can work together on things.Sarah Milligan 1:24:02
That's I think, the impressive part is that you all still found common ground to
be able to collaborate fairly often. There's not---.Bob Gates 1:24:08
Yeah, I mean, he worked with Lynn David and did [a] folklife survey of this area.
Sarah Milligan 1:24:12
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:24:12
And it wasn't just about those kind[s] of artists, it was--.
Sarah Milligan 1:24:15
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:24:15
--About other things, so it's--I think he's widened it, but he also knows
what--that muse--his museum's about, too. I haven't been out there recently and seen if it changed, and have new people there, but they also are--within the last four years, I guess. The director of the Folk Art Museum is also the supervisor of---of the Center for Traditional Culture, Traditional Music.Sarah Milligan 1:24:21
Jesse? That's good.
Bob Gates 1:24:21
Jesse Wells. So, it's like they're widening, too. I don't know if
bureaucratically, he has to do that, but in a sense, they are. They're looking at folk music through---it's all part of the same, same organization, I think.Sarah Milligan 1:24:58
Interesting.
Bob Gates 1:24:59
Yeah, it is. That's kind of neat to--. So, you know, I think that's--I kind of
learned that in Louisiana. When I came down there, Natchitoches had his own festival, there in the middle of Louisiana, and Nick Spitzer--. The stories I heard was that Nick and the guy who ran Natchitoches just couldn't get along with each other. And it was kind of this is [sighs]----I'm trying to say philosophical grounds. Is that Natchitoches wasn't doing a festival that was up to--up to snuff with what the standards of the Smithsonian and the Louisiana Folk Festival and everything. They were kind of--you know, they weren't, exce--it was kind of a local festival kind of thing. So, I--I just felt when I got there, that was one of the things I could do is kind of mend some fences. So, I got him to come to be on our folk arts panel. So, he could---.Sarah Milligan 1:25:59
In Louisiana?
Bob Gates 1:26:00
Yeah, in Louisiana. So, he could see kind of what our values were. Why we were
doing this and that, and that we could work together. I kind of did the same thing with John Harrod when I came here. Because there was some bad blood there. I always feel like you can get people--if you get them involved in seeing why you do things, and then maybe they can--we can compromise a little bit better.Sarah Milligan 1:26:23
What are you--what was the situation with John Harrod? I think you talked a
little bit about it, but--.Bob Gates 1:26:28
I just heard stories from John that he got--he didn't get along with Bert
Feintuch. Because he was out there doing research with fiddlers in the eastern part with--.Sarah Milligan 1:26:40
Well, that would have been in the 70s, anyway, when there was that whole clash
between impartial observation, you know, at that time, they still thought that you could be--.Bob Gates 1:26:40
--Gus, me, and him were going out there to all these festivals, and they were
actually kind of participant fiddler[s]. So, I don't think--I don't--I didn't go in to find out why they were mad. But I think part of it was that--you know, there's a scholarship about doing it right. Doing this sch--and maybe they weren't doing it the way Bert would or maybe--.Sarah Milligan 1:26:40
John.
Bob Gates 1:27:16
--And also, once when I first got here in the state with the---with the Artists
in Residence program. There was [were] all these people that were considered--called themself [themselves] folklorists. Three or four people call themself [themselves] folklorists on the roster, and they were--. You know, there were, there was artists, and there was [were] folk artists, and there was folklorists, but they weren't really folklorists. They just use the term and so we got--.Sarah Milligan 1:27:40
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:27:40
--In discussions, you know if you want to be a folklorist--you do this, you--.
Sarah Milligan 1:27:41
Right.
Bob Gates 1:27:42
--You don't go to Africa and--and take--bring---come back and and bring all
their artifacts and convert it into what you--suppose you being a white person and convert it into your own music and hybrid music, and all yourself a folklorist, you know.Sarah Milligan 1:28:00
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:28:01
You might be (??) Cooter or somebody but you're [laughs], but he's great. But
the past--so we had to really--I had some fights with John about that, and the directors and--not fights, but just saying, "you know, this--is--in our field, this is what we believe folklorists should be doing with the Arts Council, and not watering it down and saying everybody's a folklorist." And that--. Yeah, there's one guy still out there who wants to be a community scholar. Every once in a while, he [it] comes into his, mind, I can be a community scholar and--.Sarah Milligan 1:28:27
Right. Oh, without doing the training?
Bob Gates 1:28:37
Well, he wants to do training, but he wants to do it whenever he wants--whenever
he wants to.Sarah Milligan 1:28:41
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:28:41
You know, I'll put out word and he can take part in the class, but he never
wants to do that. He just--.Sarah Milligan 1:28:45
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:28:46
Because he made his living being the--a folklorist in the area, and I kind of
stumped on that when I came in [chuckles].Sarah Milligan 1:28:52
Yeah. Well, there's the woman in western Kentucky who has the Western
Kentucky---or what is it the ACE Folklife Festival.Bob Gates 1:29:02
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:03
Do you remember that discussion?
Bob Gates 1:29:04
Was that in Beaver Dam or someplace around there.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:05
Something like that.
Bob Gates 1:29:06
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:06
She's a UFO-ologist, and her biography says she's a folklorist and has this
folklife festival and doesn't have anything--that has anything to do with traditional arts and culture. And thinks--.Bob Gates 1:29:18
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:19
--She's a folklorist because she likes UFOs.
Bob Gates 1:29:23
Yeah [sighs].
Sarah Milligan 1:29:24
I know.
Bob Gates 1:29:24
But--.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:24
You're not the police, it's just one of the things that---that---.
Bob Gates 1:29:26
Well, I mean--.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:27
--Sort of the mentality.
Bob Gates 1:29:27
I mean, you can--you can take that attitude and make a lot of enemies.
Sarah Milligan 1:29:31
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:29:31
Or you can kind of work with them and figure out where their niche is and how,
how they can do what they do and learn a little bit from, you too. And that's kind of the approach I thought--we've always taken here. Is just try to--incorporated them in and--we could even present them at the folk festival as UFO-ologists [laughs]. You know, and do a narrative stage with them, but that's not saying--we're not giving them the stamp of saying, you really are the folklife--folk festival, Kentucky.Sarah Milligan 1:30:00
Right.
Bob Gates 1:30:00
Well, you know Bardstown had a folk festival, for years.
Sarah Milligan 1:30:04
Did they?
Bob Gates 1:30:05
Yeah, so that's why ours was Folklife Festival, there's was the--Kentucky Folk Festival.
Sarah Milligan 1:30:10
Oh, it was literally the Kentucky--
Bob Gates 1:30:11
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:30:11
--Folk Festival
Bob Gates 1:30:12
That was kind of, and then it became the bourbon---.
Sarah Milligan 1:30:15
It's the bourbon.
Bob Gates 1:30:15
---It kind of became part of the bourbon festival, I think.
Sarah Milligan 1:30:19
Interesting.
Bob Gates 1:30:20
I mean, we've had a lot of groups we've worked with. It's hard to remember them
all, but--. A lot of them came from projects the Arts Council did, and, and we were given the chance to talk about what we do, and they said, "oh, that's neat." I mean--our message has always been that you've got art in your own community--and NEA would have this thing called--their little slogan was art---something about, oh--. 'Make arts a part of your everyday life.'Sarah Milligan 1:30:27
Yeah. Oh, okay, yeah--yeah.
Bob Gates 1:31:05
And then, I would usually go to meetings and say, "well, that's NEA's thing
right now, is make arts, but you know, really, folk art is already there--a part of everyday life. We're always--there's always been a part of our life that's art. And it's not, not that you have to move to classical music to be artists--you can do--all this is here."Sarah Milligan 1:31:22
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:31:23
So, that's been our, and I think that was a major thing I feel good about with
the Arts Council is that they, that Laurie put that into their language?Sarah Milligan 1:31:30
Right.
Bob Gates 1:31:30
And---.
Sarah Milligan 1:31:32
Som here's the question--you developed a lot of strong partnerships out of Arts
Council grants and programs, what do you think that--if any, that you feel strongly, came out of your relationship with the Historical Society?Bob Gates 1:31:51
Well, I think like the--if you consider the folk festival being the Historical Society's.
Sarah Milligan 1:31:58
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:31:59
I mean, it's the main part of it, I think. I think the idea of--they've always
supported Community Scholars, too, they've seen that as part--. We haven't gone, as far as I'd like to with the Historical Society as saying, "well, you can--it could be a part of our extension outreach." And---.Sarah Milligan 1:32:15
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:32:18
I mean, I always saw Community Scholars--there's a lot of people who, who came
to Community Scholars who wanted to be more historians than they wanted to be folk artists, and I thought that was something we could expand and have kind of two versions of Community Scholars, and that could be part of the outreach, but that never really caught on with the outreach here. It was always seen more of a folklore. There were a lot of partnerships we did that were [with the] Historical Society, but I mean, I guess, the VIP program, that part--.Sarah Milligan 1:32:49
Came out of the festival--.
Bob Gates 1:32:50
--Came out of the festival, and I think that was really supported by the
Historical Society.Sarah Milligan 1:32:54
Was it?
Bob Gates 1:32:59
Well, in the sense that I could do that, in my part of what I do, and part of
what--they'll give me a car to go out and do is to go to festivals and and observe and then help them do that. I think that means it was supported by the Historical Society, and, as part--. At one time, I thought I might be the outreach person here [chuckles], you know, but outreach is seen differently here than--. I guess what I'm saying is, is the foc--I think the folklife program has been a big outreach part of the Historical Society, and we've started relationships with groups that has benefited the Arts Council--the Historic Society. One being like the Asian group.Sarah Milligan 1:33:41
the aging group.
Bob Gates 1:33:42
The aging--Asian group.
Sarah Milligan 1:33:43
Asian.
Bob Gates 1:33:46
I think we talked about this before, when we worked with them, to--we did
documentation with them that became part of a big exhibit here, immigrant. I think it could--I think we're still strong with them. I don't know if the Historical Society--.Sarah Milligan 1:34:07
[Whispers] That's okay. I'd say you're strong with them. I don't think that
outside of you the--.Bob Gates 1:34:13
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:34:13
--Historical Society has relationship with that (??).
Bob Gates 1:34:15
I don't think there's a person here that--that's job is to obs--to keep
relationship[s]. I mean, there is in the sense that-- membership. Become a member of the Historical Society, and I don't think there's a person in the Arts Council that does either. I think that's what we brought the both places, is to build new relationships with groups, and I think it could always have been taken a step further, by having special---.Sarah Milligan 1:34:42
Well, the Arts Council--.
Bob Gates 1:34:43
--Having Latino appreciation days at the Historical Society or having a special
day when you--when you bring this group in, you know, and I think other institutions have done that. And I don't know--we'd never gotten to that point, but I think we could have or--.Sarah Milligan 1:35:00
Well, that's like the Arts Council now has the diversity quar---coordinator position.
Bob Gates 1:35:04
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:35:05
--Which they hired Sarah into a few years ago, Sarah Schmitt. So, I think that's
a step, in their direction, to try---and it's not the same as what you all do at all, but at least it's a position that is [has] got some level of awareness, of some of those relationships.Bob Gates 1:35:19
I mean, when we, when we did some of our exhibits, we'd go out of our way--the
Folklife Program to work with Historical Society to advertise in Spanish. That this was going to be here, that you're invited. I remember going on the radio here and being interviewed by a Hispanic--thing, and--Hispanic DJ, and it was like a call-in show. And we were talking about how this, we're going to have a--this Latino section at the festival, and that we were going to have this and this and we really wanted people to come and this woman called us and said, "do you mean--" I'm not trying to do an accent, but she said, "do you mean that you really want us to come?" --That that--and I said, "yes--we want this to be yours--thing." And so following that, that's when we started doing more things with the Church of the Annunciation and Centro Latino in--in Versailles, is that [clears throat] we got a few people that really came out of their way. Because everybody said you couldn't get Latinos to come on a Saturday, because they're working on that day. So, we had to, we had to do special things to invite them to come, to see the--we had some Latino dancing. We had some music, we had--one year we had a--oh, the whole--all the big stage was--was dance and---Mari--not Mariachi, but Merengue, you know--.Sarah Milligan 1:35:25
Merengue.
Bob Gates 1:35:27
---Merengue, yes--and what---.
Sarah Milligan 1:36:25
Salsa.
Bob Gates 1:36:30
--Salsa, we had [a] big Salsa dance---instructions, right on the front stage.
Sarah Milligan 1:37:10
2003.
Bob Gates 1:37:10
Was it?
Sarah Milligan 1:37:11
We were just talking about this. Well--.
Bob Gates 1:37:17
So, I think that was a partnership that we developed with, with that church--and
then later on with--oh, what was that group we did a couple years ago?Sarah Milligan 1:37:32
The Bosnian group?
Bob Gates 1:37:35
No, this was in Shelbyville, too.
Sarah Milligan 1:37:37
The Guatemalans?
Bob Gates 1:37:39
This was a group--she's--she's a Caucasian woman who knew Spanish really well,
and she worked for the city of Shelbyville, and I can't remember the exact name, but it had to do with--it actually had something about race relations-- in there--race.Sarah Milligan 1:37:57
I don't know.
Bob Gates 1:37:58
And she's the one who had us do the food demonstrate--food festival, a couple
years ago. And she and I went and did field work for that and got all these different people. Now she--she's down in Louisiana, getting her master's in anthropology, I think, but--. --But that was really neat. That was kind of that ongoing relationship, but the--there wasn't anybody in the Lou--I mean, José and a couple other people--Sarah Milligan 1:38:14
Okay. Right.
Bob Gates 1:38:20
--At Centro Latino, but it wasn't like--.
Sarah Milligan 1:38:29
Well, but you---you've done exhibits here, right. They've created--the design
studio here has built a lot of your traveling exhibits. You know, that may have been funded through the Arts Council and in-kind support by KHS.Bob Gates 1:38:43
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We're getting back---I got off key here. We were talking about
what the Historical Society, how we fit in here and what they did for us.Sarah Milligan 1:38:52
Yeah, like, what, what are some of the. You know, because there's a lot of the
things we've talked about, and rightfully so are--come out of Arts Council grants or Arts Council programs that you all have--. Right.Bob Gates 1:39:01
Well, I think the festival and I think, being a part, we worked our way into
being a part of a lot of exhibits here. The idea that the insider--the folk group is important to this, let's discuss that, and the idea that there--we started doing narrative stages with a lot of exhibits. Like the immigrant exhibit, there was an exhibit about, I think it was an exhibit about or [sighs] baseball and then [the] army. I remember Brent doing two narrative stages with that. So, it was like an add on. It was--our goal, I guess was every--every exhibit that come [came] out here, that we would have some kind of input into it. A lot of times, it wasn't in the front end, when you're divi---devising the exhibit, which I would like [to] be. It was more like after exhibits [had] already conceived [it] Well, how can we add some activities--. --Along with it, and that was fine, but then there were sometimes when we actually got to be in--part of the designers--I mean, part of the input into what--.Sarah Milligan 1:40:10
The development.
Bob Gates 1:40:11
Development, like the immigrant exhibit, and there was an exhibit we put on here
about what everybody does here.Sarah Milligan 1:40:17
Oh, yeah.
Bob Gates 1:40:18
Remember that one?
Sarah Milligan 1:40:18
Nope. Wow.
Bob Gates 1:40:19
So, we had an area about folklife and--. Had my old camera out and--the--my old
tape recorder, it was broken. That was part of the--in there. And so, I think, different parts of it, of the Historical Society, we had different, different leaderships--we had different roles. I mean, when Kim [Lady Smith] was here, she always included in--as much as we could. I think when we did the Made to be Played Exhibit, it was---and it was funded by the Arts Council through a grant form NEA, masters. But it was designed by David and I and Mark. You weren't--it was--. Well, there was one about Mike--Mike Hudson was pretty good at including us, as a curator and, and he did one about the river. So, we helped with that, and then he did--did another one in the temporary gallery, and it was--it was about what every branch of the Historical Society does.Sarah Milligan 1:41:24
David McIlrath (??).
Bob Gates 1:41:25
David McIlrath. Yeah, and it was like this.
Sarah Milligan 1:41:27
The shop, yeah.
Bob Gates 1:41:27
It was unofficial, because we didn't have an agreement, for that one, and later
on, that became a problem. Because David had committed to working with me, but--oh, who was that from the Smithsonian who came in--here for a while.Sarah Milligan 1:41:42
Oh, Marilyn.
Bob Gates 1:41:42
Marilyn didn't really want to honor that, felt like that was bef--that it wasn't
a formalized so, we had to take it outside and get it fabricated, even though David designed it here. So, I felt really good about it, and it was--it was like, we worked with the design studio, on parts of it. And--.Sarah Milligan 1:42:04
Not only the fabrication shop, but the actual graphic designers, too.
Bob Gates 1:42:07
Yeah, and before that, during the festival, that was really--in the early days
of the festivals, really, when we--.Sarah Milligan 1:42:14
You used 90% of the staff here at KHS, so. [laughter]
Bob Gates 1:42:18
Yeah, I mean--.
Sarah Milligan 1:42:20
For a bit.
Bob Gates 1:42:21
--People were writing things--.
Sarah Milligan 1:42:23
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:42:23
--For the program, editing with us, and Gretchen was---all those designs came
through her, you know. We worked with governor's creative services to do like the T-shirts for a while.Sarah Milligan 1:42:39
Oh, yeah.
Bob Gates 1:42:39
And things like that. [Yawns] So--.
Sarah Milligan 1:42:49
So, that was the most visible--.
Bob Gates 1:42:51
The festival.
Sarah Milligan 1:42:51
--Partnership, yeah.
Bob Gates 1:42:52
Yeah, and then some exhibits, and I think we've always taken a part in a lot of
things around here. You know, education, for a long time we were involved with what they were--if they did a conference, folklife was part of that conference. If they did this, and it helped to have--what's her name?Sarah Milligan 1:43:17
Vicki.
Bob Gates 1:43:18
Vicki, who had studied at Western.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:20
Oh, that's right.
Bob Gates 1:43:22
I think she got her degree in folklife, too. So--
Sarah Milligan 1:43:24
She did.
Bob Gates 1:43:24
She understood where it could fit in.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:27
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:43:27
Yeah, it was nice having folklorists on staff.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:29
Well, and you had Carla. Carla was---.
Bob Gates 1:43:31
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:32
--Like one class away from her MA.
Bob Gates 1:43:34
Oh, that's right, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:34
In folk studies.
Bob Gates 1:43:35
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:43:35
From IU [Indiana University]. And then Kim, who'd worked with you for a long
time and worked with folklorists through the [Kentucky] Oral History Commission for years and years and years. So, you did, whenever I started here, I'm thinking there were like six, six folklorists with degrees on staff or something like that. It was--it was just crazy to me.Bob Gates 1:43:38
So--. And we--.
Sarah Milligan 1:44:02
It was like a tenth of the staff or something.
Bob Gates 1:44:05
Yeah, a tenth of the staff, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:44:08
Think about it. You like 60 people, it was you, there was the three of us, with
the--Folklife Program, Vicki, and there was somebody else, oh so, when Sara Elliott came on, she did.Bob Gates 1:44:24
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:44:25
So, maybe that was later on, and then Carla, and it was all during that time. It
was three of us, Carla--who I--whatever, Vicki, Sara Elliott. Seems like there was maybe one more, anyway.Bob Gates 1:44:41
You know it's--you know, when we first came in here, we were at the other
building and---.Sarah Milligan 1:44:48
In the Old State Capitol annex.
Bob Gates 1:44:49
And we were part of the education outreach.
Sarah Milligan 1:44:52
Oral history--.
Bob Gates 1:44:52
Oral history--.
Sarah Milligan 1:44:53
--And education, outreach, yeah.
Bob Gates 1:44:54
Yeah, so it was kind of--we were kind of over, well, we were all over there, at
one time. Before they built the building, we all worked together very closely. Nathan was across the hall from me and his dark room, you could always smell the chemicals, right through my room. Everybody's on top of everybody. That was before the festival even, it was just trying to find our way.Sarah Milligan 1:45:21
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:45:22
We're--what everybody did, but I always thought we were really a part of the
Arts Council's outreach.Sarah Milligan 1:45:32
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:45:32
I mean, the Historical Society's our--outreach, and the Arts Council, but---.
Sarah Milligan 1:45:43
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:45:44
You know, it got acknowledged different ways, different, different times.
Sarah Milligan 1:45:51
Yeah, well, and you all did narrative stages for, like, Boone Day programs, and--.
Bob Gates 1:45:57
I think it gets back--and sometimes, it's---may have been wrong to be a part of
both organizations. You know, because you're, you're trying to--.Sarah Milligan 1:46:05
It's a bit too many masters.
Bob Gates 1:46:07
Yeah, and nobody can claim you as their own, and then say, "okay, you're
us--you're part of us, and what you do reflects on us, and so we're gonna put our full attention to you.' It's like, either one of them could say, "well, I'm not sure." If they didn't like what you're doing, they could say, "oh, you're doing that for the Historical Society," [laughs] and they didn't like to take credit for it.Sarah Milligan 1:46:28
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:46:29
And that's what I would do if I was part of it--.
Sarah Milligan 1:46:32
That--the Arts Council would fund an exhibit, but you didn't, you didn't
actually work full 100% with the Historical Society to develop it, and that's what they consider themselves to do. So they, they--but they want credit for building it, when the Arts Council paid for it. I mean, that's a hard, it's hard to know who gets what for that, you're right.Bob Gates 1:46:53
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:46:54
Cause, both want to be able to say it's a product of--.
Bob Gates 1:46:58
--You know--
Sarah Milligan 1:46:58
--But then on the other hand--.
Bob Gates 1:47:00
And then, I think I was good at working with smaller groups on--.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:03
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:47:04
--On getting things, but with these two big organizations, sometimes it was
really hard to figure out. [sighs] What do you tell each one? How do you please each one all the time, you know,Sarah Milligan 1:47:14
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:47:15
It's--.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:16
Well, and they both have very different missions. That the--I mean, the, in some
ways, they're similar, as far as what they're trying to do, but they have different audiences and different---missions.Bob Gates 1:47:25
Different personalities, even.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:31
Different personalities, that's true, and the sizes of both of them have
changed, over the last twenty years, too, I'm gonna guess, you know.Bob Gates 1:47:40
Yeah, [the] Historical Society was always bigger than the Arts Council.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:44
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:47:44
A lot more people, and you know, I never could remember names.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:48
No, no one's ever gonna notice that listening--.
Bob Gates 1:47:50
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:50
--To this.
Bob Gates 1:47:50
Yeah. [laughter] but that that hurts, too because you--.
Sarah Milligan 1:47:54
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:47:54
[Sighs]--This, this place was more of a silo thing, than it is now.
Sarah Milligan 1:48:01
Oh, yeah, I think that's [there's] been an intentional decrease in that.
Bob Gates 1:48:04
But I don't know if you agree with me, but I think it went from that to really
open, and then it's kind of going back, to me. So--.Sarah Milligan 1:48:13
I would agree with that.
Bob Gates 1:48:14
It's, it's kind of--it's gone through these different phases, where you don't
really know where you fit in. And I--you know, there used to be times when I had to get permission from--David's supervisor, to even talk to him about something.Sarah Milligan 1:48:20
Yeah--yeah. Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:48:32
Even before we were proposing something, just to talk about how this might work.
Sarah Milligan 1:48:37
And they were trying to regulate everyone's time towards specific projects.
Bob Gates 1:48:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:48:41
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:48:41
And then it got to be where I can--.
Sarah Milligan 1:48:43
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:48:43
--Work with them. Now, it's kind of going out. Well, but---.
Sarah Milligan 1:48:50
I--[sighs]--yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. I don't know many people who
would disagree with that analysis of kind of where we're at.Bob Gates 1:48:57
It could, you know, and I've seen folklorists in other places where, and you're
right--before, there's good and bad parts of it. The flexibility that allowed--in the bill--the things we were allowed to do, but the focus, I think suffered a little bit. Because it was--.Sarah Milligan 1:49:11
Well, now, if I wonder, because you all are so outreach heavy, and it's never
100% Clear. I mean, you could be spending two weeks on outreach out for the Arts Council or two weeks in outreach out in the state for the Historical Society, because you're out so much. Neither organization staff really sees you as a part of the day to day. Because--because physically, you're--you're out, and that--that can be a pitfall of outreach for sure, in any way, but it--. I suspect that that's part of it too, just the fact that that physically you know, or that you are--that you are torn between that, too. You know, the Arts Council may have a dog and pony show that they're talking about the grants, that they're traveling for six weeks, that you have to be gone, you know, three days out of those six weeks. Or you have two staff meetings to go to over there and two staff meetings to come to here, and it probably just divides time, too. For physically integrating yourself.Bob Gates 1:50:12
And you don't get status for that.
Sarah Milligan 1:50:15
No, because you're out of sight. I mean, you're--.
Bob Gates 1:50:17
You know, you don't get, there's never been a real[ly] good way of capturing
that outreach, and it's even in academia, I think. If you're an outreach person there, you're not seen as, as good as somebody who writes and produces things, and I think the equivalent that is--here is if--. You know when they do the windshield analysis--and sent that out to us.Sarah Milligan 1:50:42
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:50:44
Where they were supposed to see how many people came here and how they did that.
Well, the only time we get credit is when, when we can show that we had an exhibit here, or we had a concert here, we could say, "well, we brought that many people into the Historical Society." But it doesn't really capture how many people you talk to outside, and that's not as important as bringing them in through the doors, I don't think ISarah Milligan 1:51:05
I would argue that that mentality is changing, but you're right about there not
being a good way to evaluate that. So, I mean, you looking at that, what would you have done differently to change that? I mean, how would you better--.Bob Gates 1:51:18
Well--.
Sarah Milligan 1:51:18
--Create a better representation of how you're meeting things?
Bob Gates 1:51:23
Well, several--there's been a couple of times in the history, where the Arts
Council wanted to capture that by putting together a database, and I--and I brought that to Historical Society's attention a couple of times. "Why don't we have a database that captures who we've worked with, how we've--what we've done with them, so that when somebody else works with them, they'll understand it," but also so we can capture the statistics--.Sarah Milligan 1:51:48
Right.
Bob Gates 1:51:49
--Of what we've been doing with all these different people, and it was, it was
never a priority. It was never seen--I mean, nobody could take it up and do it. You know---.Sarah Milligan 1:51:59
I think that's--.
Bob Gates 1:52:00
--We had a computer person here who didn't do databases.
Sarah Milligan 1:52:03
Right.
Bob Gates 1:52:03
He did everything else with setting up the computer, but he wasn't a database person.
Sarah Milligan 1:52:08
Well, that's still a problem we have.
Bob Gates 1:52:09
Yeah, and then we had somebody for a little while, a couple years ago, and now,
that's gone, but the Arts Council just scrapped the thing that we had been pushing. Because nobody was entering the stuff into it.Sarah Milligan 1:52:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:52:19
And that was mean [being], every time somebody'd call you on the phone, you
would put down what they said--you know, and what you did.Sarah Milligan 1:52:24
That's tedious.
Bob Gates 1:52:25
And Mark, and just, we would, I was in favor of it, but when we actually tried
to do it, we just, oh my god. We just went through ten people calling, and now we're gonna have to try to write down what we did with each one of them. So, there's got to--industries do it. They keep track of how you spend your time, and what's important, and--.Sarah Milligan 1:52:48
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:52:48
--But we--neither of these organizations could ever do it right.
Sarah Milligan 1:52:51
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:52:51
And, and I think that's part of it. If you can show every month that you did
this many people you--.Sarah Milligan 1:52:58
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:52:59
--You---.
Sarah Milligan 1:52:59
See, but I have to do that. I mean, I have to show--I have to do stats. Where if
I--and it's changed, how I've done stats, but I have to show, if I go out and talk to a group, where that group is what, county it's represented in how many people I talked to.Bob Gates 1:53:12
Well, we don't do it.
Sarah Milligan 1:53:13
So, I don't know what the difference is--I don't know by being in a different
team, why I have to do that.Bob Gates 1:53:18
Well, it's [in] part because you're in a team that--you got a boss, that's
taking that information out.Sarah Milligan 1:53:23
Right.
Bob Gates 1:53:23
When we left, Carla, there was nobody taking that information down.
Sarah Milligan 1:53:26
Right.
Bob Gates 1:53:26
And I didn't push it and--.
Sarah Milligan 1:53:28
Well, it's hard to know what--it's hard to know what the best-case scenario to
do, in all those things. But--I just--.Bob Gates 1:53:33
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:53:33
--Wonder if there's like, if looking back, if there's advice for somebody else
who's like, who's who's looking at this, and is researching this from the perspective of a--of--.Bob Gates 1:53:43
During the program?
Sarah Milligan 1:53:44
Yeah, and being a program that has the--I mean, looking at the complexities of
this--your program. Because it is very complex. Like what are some of the things that you can look at now, and--.Bob Gates 1:53:54
Well--.
Sarah Milligan 1:53:55
---Say, "we wish we could have."
Bob Gates 1:53:56
Well, we last five years I guess, Mark's been doing the final--the weekly reports.
Sarah Milligan 1:54:01
Yes, you--.
Bob Gates 1:54:02
And we pioneered that--that, if nobody else is doing it, at least we're gonna
write a weekly report.Sarah Milligan 1:54:08
That goes to the Arts Council and the Historical Society--.
Bob Gates 1:54:10
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 1:54:10
To your supervisors in both places.
Bob Gates 1:54:12
Yeah, and it's--.
Sarah Milligan 1:54:13
Or the directors (??)--.
Bob Gates 1:54:14
I probably should--I should have kept involved in it. Mark does a good job, but
I also should be--there--at times, when I would [be] using the report to say, "and we just started talking with so and so at the--at Berea, and they're thinking about doing this. I'm going to try to do this." With the hope that I'd get some input from both of them, but you know, of course, they're reading a lot of other things.Sarah Milligan 1:54:38
Right, well, on the other end, what you all might think about, with the weekly
reports. That is a documentation of your workflow for the last five years, you might actually talk about putting that in the archives as well. Yeah, they--. --The institutional--.Bob Gates 1:54:50
--Probably should--.
Sarah Milligan 1:54:51
--Part of that.
Bob Gates 1:54:52
It's gotten a little sketchy because we just--well, of course, we're leaving so
we're not--.Sarah Milligan 1:54:57
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:54:57
-As invested in it, but and you know, it's a pretty good representation and the
reports that--I wrote to Public Sector Folklore.Sarah Milligan 1:55:05
Yeah, I agree with that. I think (??).
Bob Gates 1:55:06
Both of those are times--and I think that's--that's one thing, if I was doing
this again, from scratch, I would have set something up in the beginning. That captures what we're doing and blow the horn a little bit more, each time we did something great.Sarah Milligan 1:55:20
Right.
Bob Gates 1:55:21
Instead of just expecting that people were going to see how great it is and take
and appreciate it.Sarah Milligan 1:55:26
Right.
Bob Gates 1:55:26
And maybe politics, angling that I'm, you know, that these things are seen as
important. I think somewhere along the line, the different configurations of governments here--.Sarah Milligan 1:55:40
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:55:40
--And other places, you got to jockey for, for things, and I didn't know how to
do that, as well. And I--.Sarah Milligan 1:55:45
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:55:45
--I assumed people would do it for me, or--.
Sarah Milligan 1:55:53
And they did for a long time, Bob.
Bob Gates 1:55:54
Yeah, I mean.
Sarah Milligan 1:55:56
Kim--.
Bob Gates 1:55:56
Kim always did,
Sarah Milligan 1:55:57
Kim obviously was and she's great at politics [laughs] and bureaucracy.
Bob Gates 1:56:00
Yeah, so I got in the habit of not having to do that with her.
Sarah Milligan 1:56:03
Yeah, right.
Bob Gates 1:56:03
I knew she would always do it; you know. But I, you know, saying if somebody
else is doing this--.Sarah Milligan 1:56:13
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:56:14
And you know, Brent's probably really good at that kind of thing.
Sarah Milligan 1:56:17
At advocating (??).
Bob Gates 1:56:18
Yeah, more. I came from a family that says, "self-self-praise stinks."
Sarah Milligan 1:56:25
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:56:26
---My grandma used to say that [laughter], you know, and that's a German,
saying. You know so, it was part of what--I was growing up not to--that people are gonna appreciate what you do eventually, but when you're in a business like this, you have to--they have to appreciate it right now. And you have to get in their plans. And you have to say, and you have to get support, and you have to get respect. And at, you know, in the meetings, I think we kind of blew it when we were doing these meetings where--I think we kind of called the junior leadership, at one time. It wasn't just, see, I wasn't--Kim was in there, but I was--I was in there, too, at the meetings.Sarah Milligan 1:57:11
Okay, so like middle manager meetings?
Bob Gates 1:57:13
Middle manager, yeah, they called it junior--this just kind of weird, but--.
Sarah Milligan 1:57:17
Okay.
Bob Gates 1:57:18
But yeah, it was Ken, who was upstairs and--and Vicki and me and some of the
other people who were representing certain big projects, but they weren't--.Sarah Milligan 1:57:32
Right, so you had senior leadership like Kim Smith and, and the curatorial--like
curatorial head and the library head, but then you had middle managers, like you who's over the Folklife Program, or Vicki, who's kind of over specific education stuff, or, and that's who that was targeting?Bob Gates 1:57:52
Yeah--yeah and--.
Sarah Milligan 1:57:52
It sort of--.
Bob Gates 1:57:53
--You know, if you look at other models of successful folklife programs, which
I'm gonna do at NEA this year, when we--.Sarah Milligan 1:57:58
Are you?
Bob Gates 1:57:59
Yeah, if they accept the thing.
Sarah Milligan 1:58:01
oh at the AFS?
Bob Gates 1:58:03
--AFS-- At AFS, we're going to, there's going to be a panel called 'Staying
Alive.' [laughter] And it's basically looking, and I proposed it, but it's--.Sarah Milligan 1:58:13
Good for you.
Bob Gates 1:58:13
--Looking at how advocacy would help--how advocacy has helped some programs stay
and not--and I'm looking at mine as a failure, in that sense. And that says, but not really, but I think advocacy would be stronger. If--you--what was I trying to say? You know, when I was in Louisiana, we had a--group, who was appointed by the governor, and it was in the statues. That that group advised the folklife program, and they were made up of pretty important people, it wasn't just folklorists.Sarah Milligan 1:58:14
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:58:14
And when something went--came across the legislature that was against folklore,
or cut our funding, these guys would get up and help. Well, we didn't have this and this, I had it for--.Sarah Milligan 1:58:47
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:58:48
--Three years, and then when we moved here, we didn't have it. You've got
it--kind of got it as the oral history commission, but Kim kind of talked me out of it, and--well, everybody kind of did, and probably would have been better to keep that, if we could have. It was in the statues for the oral history to have that, but it wasn't in the folklife. That was-- I consider it kind of a failure, that I didn't--.Sarah Milligan 1:59:27
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:59:27
--Fight for that. [clears throat] Things like that, where you prop up your
status by having people up there helping you--.Sarah Milligan 1:59:37
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:59:37
--Was where we didn't invest our time in, I didn't invest my time in. And I
would say if somebody else was doing this, that that's what you need. You need--.Sarah Milligan 1:59:47
Yeah.
Bob Gates 1:59:48
--Part of that. That's, I'm going to look at Alabama and a couple other states
who are still strong, Louisiana, and I think that's part of it is having that advocacy group--.Sarah Milligan 1:59:56
Advocacy.
Bob Gates 1:59:57
--with you.
Sarah Milligan 1:59:58
So, what about I mean, like what are your--you may not have a clue, but what are
your plans for the future? I mean, you're having this community scholar, kind of like, well, it's--I don't know, if it's a kind of early Kentucky Association-- Folklife Association meeting or a Community Scholars meeting in June?Bob Gates 2:00:13
No, not really, I mean, not officially, it's, it's just, I'd like to see the
community scholar, every, every time we hand it off to another person, you were, you were good at it, and then it went--.Sarah Milligan 2:00:24
You to say that I'm sitting here. [laughs]
Bob Gates 2:00:25
Yeah, she really was not that good. [laughter]
Sarah Milligan 2:00:27
Yeah, right.
Bob Gates 2:00:28
She's really good. [laughter], but each person--there's a kind of this lapse,
where we got more into doing the Community Scholars, but a little bit less of keeping track of everybody, which is really hard to do.Sarah Milligan 2:00:40
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:00:40
It's really hard to keep them involved, and that was kind of what Amanda was
going to do this time, and she's running out of time.Sarah Milligan 2:00:46
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:00:46
--But she is--she's got--and that's the idea of this meeting, was just to get
every--as many people back together as they could. Have a reunion, do a--.Sarah Milligan 2:00:54
Okay.
Bob Gates 2:00:54
--Little training, show them what the resources are out there, that we still
care about them, and that the Arts Council still cares about this and that we want to keep it going.Sarah Milligan 2:01:03
That's okay--that makes sense.
Bob Gates 2:01:03
That's what--.
Sarah Milligan 2:01:04
Well, but you all last year or the year before, I can't remember--had a[n]
actual like, discussion meeting about the possibility of starting a folklife association in the state. You brought someone in from the New York--Folklore Society. I mean, I mean definitely serious--.Bob Gates 2:01:17
Alabama, too, yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:01:17
--And Alabama?
Bob Gates 2:01:18
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:01:19
So, is that?--IS that something you're thinking about?
Bob Gates 2:01:23
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:01:23
After you get out?
Bob Gates 2:01:24
Yeah, that's what Judy and I are gonna meet with tonight. And I've told Kent and
Laurie that--that it. So, every--people agree on it, and it won't be made up just of community scholars.Sarah Milligan 2:01:40
Right.
Bob Gates 2:01:41
--What we're looking at is what, what kind of board would be good for this, and
how do we get it incorporated? I mean, as a 501 (c) (3). So, that's the steps. I mean, I could have done this a year ago. Should have, a year and a half ago, people were interested after the Community Scholars in Laurel County.Sarah Milligan 2:02:00
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:02:01
And there was [were] a couple who wanted to, let's go ahead and do it. So, it
takes pretty long to get incorporated and all that stuff, but--.Sarah Milligan 2:02:08
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:02:08
I think--I think it'd be good to have it here. Laurie supports it. I don't think
we'll get any money from law--may--we might get something from the Arts Council, that's what I was hoping.Sarah Milligan 2:02:18
Yeah, well, I mean, you're freeing up that--you're probably freeing up that
traditional arts funding--staff funding that--or project funding that you've been using for a third staff member.Bob Gates 2:02:33
Well, hopefully, Mark will get over there.
Sarah Milligan 2:02:36
Yeah, hopefully won't be on soft money, though. At least long term.
Bob Gates 2:02:42
Well, I mean, that's kind of up to him.
Sarah Milligan 2:02:44
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:02:45
He's got to, he's got to push it.
Sarah Milligan 2:02:47
Right.
Bob Gates 2:02:49
He's, and I think they can---they got other--. They've got other---you know,
they've used that as an excuse for years that they don't need a position over there. Because the position's over here.Sarah Milligan 2:03:03
That's true, they have three of you doing the work for it.
Bob Gates 2:03:05
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:03:05
But, now--now they don't, so.
Bob Gates 2:03:06
So, but now they don't, so they need to fight for this and quit giving the
excuse that they don't have a position. So, the Historical Society is given a position, the Cabinet's supposed to be deciding on this. I hope they decide.Sarah Milligan 2:03:19
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:03:19
--And--I hope Mark gets it and it keeps going, because I could see this [sighs]
Mark, doing the grants. Maybe the grants coming back, at least the apprenticeship, maybe keeping Community Scholars--.Sarah Milligan 2:03:34
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:03:36
--And contracting with me to do it or something. I mean, I'm--I got half a year,
I could still do another community scholar if they want to be too.Sarah Milligan 2:03:43
Right.
Bob Gates 2:03:44
We've got the exhibits that are touring, that---those are Arts Council exhibits,
sort of. [laughs] I mean, they are, yeah, they are.Sarah Milligan 2:03:52
--That weird middle place? That's--.
Bob Gates 2:03:54
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:03:54
---Kind of a discussion.
Bob Gates 2:03:55
So, I think the association, I don't know what the association can do. I don't
know if I'd even be the leadership in it, but I'd like to just to have something that represents the whole state, and could apply for grants to do projects, that would supplement what folklife--what Brett would be doing. You know, they can't do everything down there, and I'm not even sure what the desig--he's not even sure what the design is.Sarah Milligan 2:04:20
Oh, you talked with him some since he got--.
Bob Gates 2:04:22
Yeah, he called me one day.
Sarah Milligan 2:04:23
--Hired.
Bob Gates 2:04:23
We talked for a couple hours--.
Sarah Milligan 2:04:25
Good.
Bob Gates 2:04:25
An hour and a half or something like that. You know, I asked Michael Ann if I
could be involved in some of the discussion before and she hasn't done that. I'm a little [chuckles].Sarah Milligan 2:04:40
That's okay.
Bob Gates 2:04:41
You know, I told Brent, I'll work with him any way he wants to, but it's still
hard. And--I'd like you know, the things I like to do in--folklore is the partnership thing. I like to get--conceive of projects and do them. I like to actually do the projects and be--the interviewer and do field work. I'd like to learn more about editing and video editing and audio, and that's one of the workshops we're going to have here. We're bringing a guy up from Alabama, who's going to--.Sarah Milligan 2:05:21
Cool!
Bob Gates 2:05:22
God, I gotta call him, tell him we changed the day again.
Sarah Milligan 2:05:25
You should do that, yeah.
Bob Gates 2:05:26
Yes, but he's going to talk about putting radio programs together and things.
Sarah Milligan 2:05:31
Oh, great!
Bob Gates 2:05:31
So, Ralberger (??), and there's a lot of things, I mean, I'd like to do
something with folklore--family folklore, start my own business, but I'm also enjoying teaching.Sarah Milligan 2:05:45
Where are you teaching?
Bob Gates 2:05:48
Well, it's online Maysville Community College, it goes throughout the state. You
know, I talked to John Klee about maybe doing some--doing some other community college teaching.Sarah Milligan 2:05:58
So, and you're teaching like two or three online, it's a[n] introduction to
folklore, is that right?Bob Gates 2:06:03
Introduction to Folklore and Cultural Diversity.
Sarah Milligan 2:06:05
Do they--.
Bob Gates 2:06:06
And I just got Cultural Diversity, made it for the first summer session. So, I
might do that and do a session of--I probably would do a session of--so I have, that's the first time I've had both of them going during the summer.Sarah Milligan 2:06:18
Wow.
Bob Gates 2:06:18
Which is nice, there's only five in the class, which is weird.
Sarah Milligan 2:06:22
For Cultural Diversity?
Bob Gates 2:06:23
Yeah, I can't believe they let it go, but they did. So, I'm going to make, I'm
going to use that opportunity to make that more of an interactive class somehow, rather than just what it's been.Sarah Milligan 2:06:34
Right, online.
Bob Gates 2:06:35
But I mean, I could do that and do in---I could work at KSU [Kentucky State
University] maybe this other community college down the road here and do live ones.Sarah Milligan 2:06:43
In person, yeah.
Bob Gates 2:06:44
There's something weird about---.
Sarah Milligan 2:06:47
Online.
Bob Gates 2:06:48
Well, there's something weird about teaching through communities [community]
college[s]. You know, I've always wanted Western to ask me to teach. You know, and I kind of felt like there's, you know, they don't think I measure up to what they want. Or maybe that they thought I was too busy, but I've always wanted them to ask me [chuckles], at least, and that's never happened I feel--.Sarah Milligan 2:07:15
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:07:15
--It feels like a little step down to be [at] a community college, but I guess
it's not. It's really the same students--as a lot of the--some students I got are regular students.Sarah Milligan 2:07:25
Well, and I wonder too, that they don't have any online courses, do they? Maybe
they have one.Bob Gates 2:07:31
I thought they had one.
Sarah Milligan 2:07:32
Maybe they have one introduction to folklore, but it's only been going on a few
years, but I don't think they have any other than that. That probably will change.Bob Gates 2:07:41
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:07:43
I'm making you feel better here, Bob. I'm making you feel better, Bob.
Bob Gates 2:07:44
Hmm? Well, you asked me what I was thinking--.
Sarah Milligan 2:07:48
No, I--.
Bob Gates 2:07:48
--I don't want to get all of this on tape but--.
Sarah Milligan 2:07:50
Well--.
Bob Gates 2:07:51
--I mean--I guess I'm gonna stay here till December and work on the archives and
I want to stay active in what I'm doing. I'm not a book writer, like Lynwood Montell. [laughter]Sarah Milligan 2:08:03
A book factory, you mean.
Bob Gates 2:08:04
A book factory, but I don't know, it's kind of scary, thinking.
Sarah Milligan 2:08:10
[Sighs] Well, but---but I think that's an--
Bob Gates 2:08:16
I hope the program gets stronger. I don't know what it's gonna do when it goes
to Western, and that's--that's kind of my hedge of getting the association is thinking that--it needs more than that. Just being at Western, I think it--all the connections we've made over the years could stay or they could just kind of dissolve, you know. And I think these connections ought to be formed up. So, I want to recruit the community scholars to be part of this, but I want the old.Sarah Milligan 2:08:48
You want Betsy and Tom Adler and Hugo and Susan and all these--.
Bob Gates 2:08:51
Yeah, that's why--that's why I invited them to meet with us tonight--just to get
their input. Yeah. And--.Sarah Milligan 2:08:56
The kind of working professional folklorists in the state?
Bob Gates 2:08:58
Yeah, so it can be a real association that. You know, one of the things that we
probably should have done more here, is had a section in the Chronicle with--that we contributed every couple of months and had Michael Ann writing papers and things. I mean, I've suggested that but--it's--they've gone through so many different directions with the Chronicle, it seems, that's always--. So, it'd be nice to have an online publication of things that people are doing--.Sarah Milligan 2:09:31
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:09:32
--In the state and that they could do. I think there's a lot more that can be done.
Sarah Milligan 2:09:37
Oh, yeah, without a doubt.
Bob Gates 2:09:40
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:09:40
Without a doubt, the work's not over.
Bob Gates 2:09:44
Yeah--I don't know. Knowing that we're being phased out, it's kind of made you
slow down on these--filming these things although I'm still, and I'm with Promise Neighborhood's now. We just did some with Hopewell Museums.Sarah Milligan 2:09:57
I was just gonna say, your calendar looks like you're as busy as ever.
Bob Gates 2:10:00
Larry Hackley wants, oh, there's this guy at Eastern [Kentucky University],
wants to do a exhibit on weaving. That includes basket making, and I talked him into, "well, why don't you do weaving the bumpers and other things like that?"Sarah Milligan 2:10:13
Oh, yeah.
Bob Gates 2:10:14
Kind of expand it. And, oh yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:10:15
The boat.
Bob Gates 2:10:16
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:10:16
The bot one.
Bob Gates 2:10:17
And he's interested too, but I'm running out of time. Did we cover everything?
Sarah Milligan 2:10:28
I'm sure we did, but we--I think.
Bob Gates 2:10:31
Is this the end?
Sarah Milligan 2:10:33
Yeah, unless you can think of something--I mean, I'm always willing to come back
if you've got other things you want to talk about. I mean if you--if you think back and think that we totally missed something. I can come back.Bob Gates 2:10:44
Well, there probably has been something, some projects, and things.
Sarah Milligan 2:10:47
I'm sure. --And I'm not sure how to strategically go through point by point,
without actually like having an inventory and a list. Maybe we come back together after Heather finishes that inventory in--she'll probably finish it--.Bob Gates 2:10:49
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:00
--In September or October.
Bob Gates 2:11:02
Yeah.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:03
So maybe we get back together before--.
Bob Gates 2:11:04
And I'm kind of keeping the list of all the, you know, on my--.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:08
Okay.
Bob Gates 2:11:08
--On the Y-Drive, I think what I'm going to do is--I used to have present
projects, old projects, you know.Sarah Milligan 2:11:17
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:11:17
And then but there are, then I have email--projects that are on there.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:23
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:11:23
It'd be nice to put them all together and say, "these are all projects that we did."
Sarah Milligan 2:11:26
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:11:27
And there's a lot of them.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:34
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:11:34
Yep.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:35
There was [were] a lot of them.
Bob Gates 2:11:36
Yeah. We never could say no, huh?
Sarah Milligan 2:11:38
You never could say no. You never could say no, that's true. You're a busy, busy
person. Busy, busy. Well, well, but you've had--.Bob Gates 2:11:51
But not always strategic.
Sarah Milligan 2:11:52
--That's true but you've got your thumbprint all over the state. That's
hard--it's hard to be both. It's hard to be--.Bob Gates 2:12:03
Yeah, you see people who are strategic, sometimes they're so inflexible, they
don't do any, you know, it's just.Sarah Milligan 2:12:07
It can be.
Bob Gates 2:12:08
I can't do this, I can't. Try to be a blend of the two.
Sarah Milligan 2:12:14
It's hard, you get really excited about stuff.
Bob Gates 2:12:17
Yeah
Sarah Milligan 2:12:17
You do, and that's, that's why you have been a success. I mean, that's why you
have so many partnerships, and so many strong projects that you've worked on. Because you are energetic to do it and--.Bob Gates 2:12:30
Well, you know, when you're doing a program, you got things written down, and
you got plans of what you're going to do, but you also got lots of things in your head, and these connections that you made, and you see these relationships going and you say--.Sarah Milligan 2:12:44
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:12:44
We did this with them five years ago, but if we, if we got, if we could help
them with this, this is going to make them get past that.Sarah Milligan 2:12:53
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:12:53
And that takes a person to see that, right.
Sarah Milligan 2:12:57
Right.
Bob Gates 2:12:57
And that's kind of what I saw myself as, a lot of times. In the last couple of
years, it's been a little bit less of, I think. Because of all the uncertainty of things.Sarah Milligan 2:13:06
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:13:07
But I think---that's and I think that's what you need. I think that's what a
director of a folklife program does, is take the overview and say, "how can we help this person get past this? And you know, we have this history with this group, and if we--match them with this group."Sarah Milligan 2:13:30
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:13:30
It's kind of a liaison person, like I said before.
Sarah Milligan 2:13:33
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:13:35
I think that's what you do with your grants a lot of times, right? You see who
you've done in the past and--.Sarah Milligan 2:13:43
--A lot of it's--.
Bob Gates 2:13:45
And sometimes, it's kind of frustrating with the way the Arts Council has to do
things with their grants. It's got to be so impartial, which is important, but at the same time, it's like you step back from it, and you don't--you don't see those connections and they don't make it anymore.Sarah Milligan 2:14:10
Yeah.
Bob Gates 2:14:12
Not everybody's the same out there. They don't write the grants the same.
Sarah Milligan 2:14:18
That's true, but I've come from a system where it was almost not at all
impartial, and it was almost all.Bob Gates 2:14:24
Yeah, that's bad.
Sarah Milligan 2:14:25
Yeah, so I mean, you can kind of fall to both degrees--both extremes, you know.
Bob Gates 2:14:31
Can you turn off for a second?
Sarah Milligan 2:14:32
Yeah, I can turn off for good if you want.
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