Oral History Interview with Horace Hambrick & Don Cawthorne

Horace Hambrick

I was three years old when the fire occurred. And Mary said that we went up several times because we lived in town then up there and said that my mother wanted to come back to the house on Broadway two or three times because so many of the fire was going and hitting housing, she was afraid our house would get bunked--by some of the flying debris, you know, from the chapel fire. And let--there were a number of houses that were--caught fire because of that.

Don Cawthorne

You see, we were on the way back from a glee club trip and we heard about it in Corbin.

Horace Hambrick

Huh, in Corbin.

Don Cawthorne

We heard that the chapel had burned.

Horace Hambrick

You already got us on tape?

Glen Taul

This is an unrehearsed interview with Don B. Cawthrone, class of 1931 and Horace Hamrick, class of 1947 at Mr. Cawthorne's residentce at 3051 Ria Dosa Drive, Apartment 207 in Lexington, Kentucky on March 25th 2000. The interview was conducted by Glen Edward Taul, Georgetown college archivist. Now, just tell me your name first.

Don Cawthorne

Don Cawthorne.

Glen Taul

Okay. And where--where were you living at the time when you came to Georgetown?

Don Cawthorne

I was living in Pineville, Kentucky.

Glen Taul

Pineville, Kentucky, that's in eastern Kentucky.

Don Cawthorne

Bell County.

Glen Taul

Okay. What made you decide to come to Georgetown?

Don Cawthorne

My older brother had gone to Georgetown. mMy parents were Bapitsts and wanted us to go to a Baptist college.

Glen Taul

Okay. Why did they want you to go to a Baptist. Besides being Baptist, was there any particular reason why they picked Georgetown?

Don Cawthorne

Not that I know of. I had been offered a scholarship to play basketball at Kentucky Wesleyan. And my parents said, "we want you to go to Georgetown." So that's where I wound up.

Glen Taul

Now, and your parents, what did your dad do?

Don Cawthorne

My dad owned and operated some coal mines.

Glen Taul

Oh, down around near Middlesboro or?

Don Cawthorne

Well, we were--all of us were born in Virginia.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

And my grandfather, and a farm just south of Appomattox, Virginia, oh, 50, 60 miles. And we spent a lot of time there. And then we moved to Nortron, Virginia and moved to Kentucky when I was twelve years old, I think it was.

Glen Taul

Tweleve years old.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Glen Taul

Okay and so you went there through high school like at--

Don Cawthorne

That's right.

Glen Taul

Okay. And what kind of education did you get it at Pineville High School?

Don Cawthorne

I got a wonderful education. Teachers, good athletic programs, good. Students, good. And just a very, very invigorating environment. Pineville High School was a Class-A school, no question.

Glen Taul

Was it a four-room school, an eight-room school?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, no, it was--it was a building about oh, 40 or 50 yards long and about 25 or 30 feet deep and or along there. No, it was a good sized building.

Glen Taul

About What year was this--or years were these?

Don Cawthorne

I graduated in 1927.

Glen Taul

From high school.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Glen Taul

Okay. So you came to Georgetown in 1927?

Don Cawthorne

Right.

Glen Taul

What was--how did you get there?

Don Cawthorne

Not--family drove me.

Glen Taul

Oh, so you didn't take the bus or train or anything.

Don Cawthorne

No. No. They drove me down and unloaded me and then they went home. [laughter]

Glen Taul

Now, were you the first in the family to go to college?

Don Cawthorne

No, no. My brother--older brother had gone to Georgetown.

Glen Taul

Is there more than you and your brother in the family?

Don Cawthorne

I had two younger brothers and I had an older sister.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

And my older sister went to Science Hill.

Glen Taul

Oh, over in Pulaski County?

Don Cawthorne

No, over in Shelby County. Shelby County.

Glen Taul

Oh,

Don Cawthorne

Shelbyville, Science Hill.

Glen Taul

Okay. You're talking about the Science Hill School--not the town.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah, that's right.

Glen Taul

Okay. Very good. So, what were the roads like from Pineville to Georgetown?

Don Cawthorne

Twisting and narrow. And remember it took--it would take at least eight hours to drive from Pineville to Louisville.

Glen Taul

Eight hours.

Don Cawthorne

I've counted the time quite frequently because the girl that I met at Georgetown, to whom I later married, lived in Louisville. And I would drive from Pineville to Louisville and it always took me eight hours--seven hours to go. And eight hours to get back. [laughter] I was more anxious to get there than I was to leave. [laughter]

Glen Taul

He was depressed--when he left. [laughter] So what, what kind of--now had you visited Georgetown before you came?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah, I'd been down there cause my brother was there.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

I had been there--during my senior year, I went down.

Glen Taul

Okay. What was your impression of it?

Don Cawthorne

It must have been all right, because I didn't rebel against going to Georgetown.

Glen Taul

Okay. Was your brother' still here at the time you came?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah, he was still there.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

He was two years ahead of me.

Glen Taul

Okay. Now, what? Where did you stay, the first year?

Don Cawthorne

The Phi K House.

Glen Taul

The Phi K House and where was that located?

Don Cawthorne

Located at Main Street and--

Horace Hambrick

Chambers.

Don Cawthorne

Chambers Avenue.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

As a matter of fact, I lived all four years--.

Horace Hambrick

Old house--.

Don Cawthorne

--In a fraternity house.

Horace Hambrick

[It's] still standing.

Glen Taul

Does that mean--you pledged the first semester?

Don Cawthorne

I pledged at the end of the first semester?

Glen Taul

At the end of the first semester, but you still started out in the Pi Kappa House? How could you do that, I thought fraternities were only allowed to--members were only allowed to stay in the Phi--in the fraternity house?

Don Cawthorne

I don't know, but I stayed in Phi K House, I know that.

Horace Hambrick

Well--they did when I was there, you could have non-fraternity members in the house.

Glen Taul

Is that right? Okay.

Horace Hambrick

Is that because there was a shortage of housing for students on the campus?

Don Cawthorne

Well Georgetown, I mean, the fraternity owned that house?

Glen Taul

The national organization or the local fraternity?

Don Cawthorne

It was local, wasn't it?

Horace Hambrick

Local--local fraternity.

Glen Taul

Okay. Okay.

Don Cawthorne

The fraternity members had contributed to buy it.

Glen Taul

Okay. Of course, all of that changed in the 60s or 70s.

Don Cawthorne

[Unknown] ?? [laughter]

Glen Taul

Well, what did the fraternities do to recruit you?

Don Cawthorne

Well, they did like--they did. Well, they didn't like to do then [??], they had just a lot of affairs. A lot of, well little parties that they had, but they weren't--they weren't binges. They were--they were parties there at the house. And some of the members would take you out to maybe get a Coke Cola or eat a sandwich or something like that. And that's the way they rushed you then.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

You remember that, Horace?

Horace Hambrick

Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

You remember how they did that?

Horace Hambrick

Yeah.

Glen Taul

So it wasn't it--the way you're describing, it's nothing like they probably do today.

Don Cawthorne

No, no. Nothing like, what do they call it, chapel day?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

Yeah. Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

Nothing like that.

Horace Hambrick

No, no.

Don Cawthorne

It was all very--it very competivie, but it was done on a more personal basis than--of course with me, it was a little different because my brother was a Phi Kappa.

Glen Taul

Oh, so that influence you?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

But, I was also rushed by the KAs [Kappa Alpha.] Even my little old--my brother with a Phi Kap, but they did anyway.

Glen Taul

Okay. And the KAs where like on, what's the name of the street the Baptist church is on?

Horace Hambrick

Over there on Hamilton Street.

Glen Taul

Hamilton Street.

Horace Hambrick

Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

That Dentist then bought the house later--Hill--.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

Dr. Hill.

Glen Taul

Okay. What was--what did y'all do? What was--why was it so important to belong to a fraternity, in your mind?

Don Cawthorne

Social.

Glen Taul

Social? So what kind of activities were y'all involved--did you get involved in, as far our social activities?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, well they had a lot of--a lot of parties. --I mean, not a lot of parties, but on on special occasions, they would have parties and they'd have for instance, I remember when Frankie Carl, I believe was Frankie Carl that came to Georgetown.

Horace Hambrick

It might have been, I'm not sure.

Don Cawthorne

And they came over to the fraternity house and played the piano a lot at night. While he was there and things like that. It was more of a personal thing than it was a--it was in the--fraternity, I don't know how they are now. But the fraternities in my time and probably in Horace's time are very close knit. And the Phi Kaps I know were--and I guess the other fraternities were also, but we just did a lot of things together and then you made special friends that you did things with. I made several real close friends and always were during my pledge years. We went through hell week together and all that kind of stuff. They don't have that anymore, I don't think.

Glen Taul

What is hell week, or what was hell week, I should say? [laughs]

Don Cawthorne

It was what the name describes.

Glen Taul

Okay. Well, tell me several things--

Don Cawthorne

I remember, well I remember that, well, they put you through all sorts things. And [clears throat] I remember one night, they had the pledges all up in the third floor and of the fraternity house and had your hand stretched out, holding on to those two by fours, or four by sixes or what it was. Without any clothes on, stark naked, and they stuck fly paper all over you. [laughter] Did you hear that okay?

Horace Hambrick

Did worse than that.

Glen Taul

Oh, well--

Horace Hambrick

I'll tell my story after--

Glen Taul

Okay.

Horace Hambrick

--You get through.

Don Cawthorne

And all things like that. I had to get in a tub of hot water and soak that flypaper before I could get it off. Because you could imagine--you don't know what our paper is, do you?

Glen Taul

Yeah, I know what it is.

Don Cawthorne

Do you?

Glen Taul

Yeah, it's real sticky on the surface--.

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Glen Taul

And you hang it up to catch the files.

Don Cawthorne

That's right.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

And, of course, we had a lot of paddling in those days, too.

Glen Taul

Well, I wondered about that. That--that was going on during the time --I never was a fraternity person, but I knew they had paddles.

Don Cawthorne

Was that--Jack Dawson, who played tackle on the football team, was my big brother. And the way he would greet me, most of the days would be, "Cawthrone, grab your ankles." And you'd be--you'd bend over, he'd give you a whack with that paddle --was pretty stinging too. [laughter] And one night, he came in and I was already in my pajamas and--about 10 o'clock. And Jack said, "on your feet, get dressed." And he looked at his watch and said, "you've got 15 minutes to go down to Suzy Faber's (??) and get me some ice cream. [laughter] So, it took off.

Glen Taul

In your pajamas?

Don Cawthorne

No, no, I dressed. [laughter] Not in my pajamas?

Horace Hambrick

I've made him break a vocal record from that (??).

Don Cawthorne

And I was passing like a (??) [laughter] down there and back.

Glen Taul

So that was all part of hell week?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. And the last--the last night of hell week. They made you--they searched you, to make sure you had no money on.Made you take your shoes off, so you didn't have them in there and everywhere. And to sure he didn't have any money and blindfolded you, put you in a car, drove you out in the county someplace or in some other county. Took the blindfold often and put you out of the car. And you need to get back to Georgetown the best way you could. Did they do you that way?

Horace Hambrick

The same way, exactly.

Glen Taul

So how did you get back?

Don Cawthorne

Well, it so happened that I had a good friend who was a member of the fraternity. Already, and he wasn't a pledge. And he put--took me and my buddy in the car and then another fella and drove around and around and around. And finally let us out down around Farmers Bank. Then we jus--we walked from there back to the house, so he didn't--didn't put us out in the country. [laughter] What about you?

Horace Hambrick

Much worse than that.

Don Cawthorne

No, I didn't have--very nice. [laughter]

Glen Taul

So after the hell week, was there some kind of initiation ceremony or a ceremony to induction into?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah, yeah, we went through that. And then of course--

Glen Taul

That's a secret thing, isn't it?

Don Cawthorne

And during the--yeah, during the pledge week, we had a study hall, in the fraternity house. And we had somebody that monitored it, so they did pay some attention to academics then. And, I don't know, it was just all a good experience. Except after I became an active member, I didn't do much paddling on the pledges. I've never been in favor much of that vigorous hazing. And I'm glad I didn't do it now.

Horace Hambrick

Right.

Don Cawthorne

And the community work or whatever they do, I know they don't--they're not supposed to do it now.

Horace Hambrick

They're not supposed to.

Don Cawthorne

And the National, the National is against it.

Horace Hambrick

Most national fraternities are against it now.

Glen Taul

So, what kind of things did you do after you got into the fraternity?

Don Cawthorne

Well, I played athletics. I played on the basketball team, on the tennis team. I played football my freshman year. And I wouldn't go out the second year for reasons I don't want to state on--.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

But, the record here, but we heard that somebody had the VD [veneral] disease.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

So I didn't--I didn't go out.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

When I--when I talked to my parents about it, they said, "Drop it." And I don't know whether they did or not. [laughter]

Glen Taul

You know, it just wasn't Horace?

Don Cawthorne

No it wasn't, he was still in high school.

Glen Taul

I know it!

Don Cawthorne

In grade school maybe.

Horace Hambrick

--I was born in the year you went to Georgetown.

Don Cawthorne

--Were you? [laughter]

Glen Taul

So you--you participated in activities outside of the fraternities?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah.

Glen Taul

Group.

Don Cawthorne

Sure.

Glen Taul

And you've mentioned the sports, what other kind of activities were you involved in? You mentioned the glee club.

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah. Sang, sang the first tenor in the glee club.

Glen Taul

Is that did you--were you involved in that--.

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah.

Glen Taul

In your first year?

Don Cawthorne

No, I was involved in that--I didn't get involved in that until my junior year.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

And the reason I got involved in my junior year because the girl came up as a freshman from Louisville, Chris Kerr (??) And she played the piano real well. And she was the pianist for the glee club. And I joined the glee club.

Glen Taul

I figured that was gonna be the reason. [laughter]

Don Cawthorne

Budd Blackman and sang first tenor.

Horace Hambrick

Oh, did you?

Don Cawthorne

Remember Bud? You probably don't remember him.

Horace Hambrick

No, no.

Don Cawthorne

He became a doctor and--practiced in London, Ohio, I think. George Asher. Dean's brother was a senior at the time I went to Georgetown.

Horace Hambrick

Asher.

Don Cawthorne

Dr. Blount (??)

Horace Hambrick

Rankin Blount.

Don Cawthorne

Rankin Blount, yeah, who was a doctor here in Lexington--for a long time.

Horace Hambrick

Went to him myself.

Don Cawthorne

Huh?

Horace Hambrick

I had gone to him too.

Don Cawthorne

Oh, really. Just stayed busy, you know. Used to go to the library, every once in a while. Whenever Chris went. [laughter]

Glen Taul

--W--did you go before then?

Don Cawthorne

And write notes. Not much. Not much. And Mrs. Fisher, I believe it was, who was the librarian there.

Horace Hambrick

Avril (??) Fisher.

Don Cawthorne

She would see me writing a note to Chris and she'd go, like that. [makes a gesture]

Glen Taul

You wouldn't say a word--she would just wave her finger?

Don Cawthorne

That's right

Glen Taul

Well, I was--it's funny you should mention that because I was looking through The Georgetonian not long ago in the 1920s and Miss Fisher had published her rules for library protocol. Did you read that in the exhibit? What was the protocol?

Don Cawthorne

Well, there was no talking.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

And I don't know whether it was you weren't supposed sit--boys and girls close--I know I sat at the table with Chris.

Glen Taul

Oh, you did?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Glen Taul

And this was like 1928?

Don Cawthorne

1929.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

She didn't come there till 1929.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

I was a junior when she came as a freshman. And that's when they had open house, every night, you know, from 6:30 to 7:30 in the fraternity houses.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

And Chris would always play the piano and--one of the girls from Pineville told me, said, "Don, there's a real cute girl from Louisville I want you to meet." And I didn't know, but at the time she told the girls that, "there was a boy from Pineville, there's nice boy, I want you to meet him." And I was playing on the tennis team. And one--I didn't pay any attention to it for, oh, two or three weeks. And one afternoon, after I'd finished my match, I went to the sorority house to look this thing over, you know or something. There was a crowd around the piano and somebody was banging up on that and they were singing to talk to boys. (??) And I finally eased my way into where I could look over the piano. And Chris said that---later said, "I knew that's who you were because I saw that stick--tennis racket sticking out of your hand." And that night, I asked her, I said--I walked her back to the--I liked what I saw. I said, "I'll walk you back to the dorm." And she said, "somebody had already asked me." [laughter] I don't know if I--goofed off or not. But the next night, I went back to the open house. And I said to her again, I said, "I'll walk you back to the dorm, if I may." She says, "Somebody's already asked me." [laughter] And I said, "well, is anybody to asked you for tomorrow--asked for tomorrow night?" "No." Well, there--so I walked her back that night, and I said, "I walk you back tomorrow night too." She's-- "somebody already's asked me." [laughter] Wwell, and finally about the third night she told me that, and then finally, the fourth night I walked her back and I said, "from now on, whoever asks you to walk you back to the dorm, you tell them you've got somebody to walk you back." [laughter]

Horace Hambrick

You cut them off. And I just walked her back every night.

Glen Taul

Now, where was she staying, in Rucker?

Don Cawthorne

She was staying in Rucker at the time. Rucker Hall. You remember Rucker?

Glen Taul

Yes. Never was inside it, but I remember it.

Don Cawthorne

Well, you know, that was a hard decision of the trustees, that vote to tear that thing down. But we had been warned time and again with by the fire marshal about how dangerous it wa--dingy it was. And I was on the trustees at the time. And I hated to see it come down, but I also--I many times after the meeting, I would be thinking at night. Suppose that building does this catch on fire. Those kids up on the third floor wouldn't have a chance. And so, they finally tore it down, which they should have done. But alums would come back to the campus and they would look and they'd say, "where's Rucker Hall?" They didn't know that it had been torn down. And I remember one, one woman, I don't remember name. She really--actually said in tears because she couldn't find Rucker. I mean, it was that kind of a place.

Glen Taul

Oh, I know.

Don Cawthorne

See and Rucker when you had a--date, and that's where you had your dates when you were a freshman. Were little cubicles and straight benches like this. And you could--anybody in the next cubicle, they could hear you and so on and so forth. And it was really a ten strike when you could get down where the glee club director had his office. They would let you have a date in that and I finally worked up where I could get a date there. [laughter] And the rules were very strict. I remember Chris got that campus for two weeks and the reason was she had been seen with a boy, which woas me, downtown.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

So, she couldn't have a date for two weeks.

Glen Taul

That's what campus means.

Don Cawthorne

That's campus.

Horace Hambrick

You've never heard of the term?

Glen Taul

Haven't heard of that.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah, well,

Horace Hambrick

Oh, that was true in my case, oh you've got campus.

Don Cawthorne

I've still got that little card someplace, where Chris was given that being campus. A reason, seen in town with a boy. [laughter] I've got that stuff at someplace. [laughter]

Glen Taul

Now, that is fascinating. [chuckles]

Don Cawthorne

And I think you could have---only have two dates a month to begin with. And so they were precious.

Glen Taul

And then there were exceptions for--there were certain occasions--

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah.

Glen Taul

--Where it wasn't counted as a date, right?

Horace Hambrick

Yeah. You went to church, you could go on a prayer meeting--.

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah, as a matter of fact, why we--we both were Baptist, and went to the Baptist church. On Sunday, we would go to the Presbyterian Church, it was all the way around on Main Street, and would walk all the way around. And we used to have a date for 60 cents, 25 cents each to go into the movie, and a nickel for for a Coke. And we'd go to Tiger's Den and the sweet shop. On or the other. I think the sweet shop got to be where it was [a] favorite for us. Now, where was the sweet shop? I know it was downtown, but? It was just about where--it was just south, I guess you could say, about three or four doors of Susy Faber's.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

Is that right?

Horace Hambrick

Or west.

Don Cawthorne

West.

Glen Taul

--Toward Frankfort.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. So toward--down toward the courthouse.

Glen Taul

Okay. But, it was on Main Street?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah, on Main Street.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

Fobber's and and sweet shop both on the same side of the street.

Horace Hambrick

And Tiger Den across the street.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Glen Taul

Now, what was the Tiger Den?

Don Cawthorne

Well, it was, it was a restaurant. And it was a place where the kids would hang out some.

Glen Taul

It was trying--so it was basically trying to gear its business toward the college students.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. And the college kids used to hang out there some.

Glen Taul

Okay. They allow dancing?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, no. [laughter] Matter of fact, I was on the trustees again when we voted to have dancing. And which I think we should have been done before we did--we were--.

Horace Hambrick

--When--my sister was in school, though in the early 40s, before [Sam] Hill came, they did have dancing, under [President Henry Noble] Sherwood.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Horace Hambrick

After Don was gone--.

Don Cawthorne

Oh yeah.

Horace Hambrick

--They had it and then it was later restored.

Don Cawthorne

Then it went back.

Horace Hambrick

Yeah. Yeah.

Glen Taul

Oh, did Dr. [H. Leo] Eddleman ban dancing?

Horace Hambrick

Well, I don't think under Dr. Hill they had dancing.

Don Cawthorne

No, no, we--they didn't, under Dr. Hill. No.

Horace Hambrick

But, it was under Sherwood they had had dancing because my sister--she was a Sigma Kappa as Chris was and they used to, I can remember going up to the Sigma Kappa House when I was in high school and my sister, and they rolled the rugs back to dance--

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

In the Sigma Kappa house--.

Glen Taul

Well did--when you had dancing did you do with records or did you have a lot--some people who actually played instruments or?

Horace Hambrick

I think records.

Don Cawthorne

Well, we had a little--we had a little jazz band, my senior year. Chris played the piano. Arlie (??) Wheeler played the drums. Bud Blackburn and I played trumpets. And somebody played the sax now, I've forgotten the name of the fellow who played the sax. But we used to just get together and toot around. You know, for fun.

Glen Taul

Okay. That sound--that's best the best kind. [laughter] Instead of doing it to records. [laughter] Well, what did you major in?

Don Cawthorne

Majored in biology and Dr. Hinton and Barney Watson. You didn't know.

Horace Hambrick

Knew Hinton, but didn't know Barney.

Don Cawthorne

At that time, well, I don't know whether they still do or not but we had to have an oral examination on our major our senior year.

Glen Taul

They still do that at Georgetown.

Don Cawthorne

And stand up and ask you questions for an hour or so. All of it oral.

Horace Hambrick

Did you have to stand up, Don?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, yeah.

Glen Taul

I got to sit down. [laughter]

Horace Hambrick

Well I did too, but my mother, when she recited under John L. Hill, she used to--would have to stand up in--during recitation.

Don Cawthorne

Well, I had to stand up during the (??) time. And of course, I remember the old building where--that burned, you know? They used to have chapel in there, and on the left is you went in on Giddings and the library was on the right, and I did --took some chemistry and I had--my chemistry lab was up on the third floor of old Giddings.

Glen Taul

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

And that was before we had an elevator. We haven't always had that elevator, you know.

Glen Taul

Oh sure. Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

So I remember, we used to have numbered seats in your--in the chapel and they would take the attendance on that by the seats that were unoccupied and they [chuckles], they knew all the students so, there wasn't any question of having a phony sit in your seat. [laughter]

Glen Taul

Now what was the rules for chapel?

Don Cawthorne

I've forgotten exactly--.

Glen Taul

How often did they have it?

Don Cawthorne

I don't recall. It seemd to me like we had chapel every day, but I'm not sure that's accurate.

Horace Hambrick

I wouldn't be surprised, it might have been.

Glen Taul

Well, the day that the chapel burned, it was on a Saturday, and they were having chapel.

Don Cawthorne

On Sat--I didn't know they'd have it on a Saturday.

Horace Hambrick

No, I didn't either.

Glen Taul

It was April the twenty--

Don Cawthorne

Well, then they must have--.

Horace Hambrick

When I was in school, we had on--if you were a freshman, you had it Monday and Wednesday and upperclassmen Tuesday and Thursday, so we havd four days when I was in school, so I'll been Don had it five days. Amazing.

Don Cawthorne

--It seems to me we did have it five days.

Glen Taul

So what was ch--what happened in chapel, usually?

Don Cawthorne

Speeches.

Glen Taul

Speeches.

Don Cawthorne

Although the--the I'm wanting to call it an orchestra, but Chris also played the violin.

Glen Taul

Boy, she was talented.

Don Cawthorne

And I couldn't get--well she didn't play it, she said not too well, I couldn't tell the difference. [laughter] But you used to have those glass doors in that--you know, you can go in the foyer.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

In the chapels and you see the glass doors and I'd see her in there sowing away on that piano, I mean on that violin. I thought, she's not happy. [laughter] So it was all--it was all a lot of fun.

Glen Taul

What professor do you remember the most?

Don Cawthorne

There are several. Dr. Stanton Pierce, who was the chemistry teacher. And Dr. Hinton, Barney Watson. May Gabhart (??), who taught me history. Dr. Fogle, I believe he was French, wasn't he? And then the fellow who was--taught mathematics.

Horace Hambrick

Was it Hatfield then?

Don Cawthorne

Hatfield, yeah. Those are the ones that I remember the most.

Glen Taul

Were their teaching styles about the same?

Don Cawthorne

No. No, Dr. Pierce would ask you more questions.

Glen Taul

So he wouldn't necessarily a lecturer?

Don Cawthorne

No, not necessarily. But he put a lot of formulas up on the blackboard and--you had to interpret them, what they were and so on and so forth. And when you were trying to synthesize something, I wonder you know, there's a funny thing-- how things stand out in your memory. I know, Chick Carter and Dean Katon (??) and I had driven to Pineville. Dean lived in Pineville and chick lived in Harlan. And we had, Chick and I had gone together and bought an A Model Ford. And we drove to Pineville in that and Chip took it on to Harlan. And it didn't have a top on it.

Glen Taul

Oh!

Don Cawthorne

And in the back where--the normal seat later became the fashionable thing to have. We had just a big box, a big box. And we were spo--chick was supposed to meet us at 10 o'clock on a Sunday morning to drive back to Georgetown. It took them quite a few hours to drive to Georgetown, from Pineville. Well, Chick was late getting to Pineville. And we finally left Pineville along about six o'clock. And in the meantime, it had snowed. And it was one of these snows that laid on the grass, but the pavement was warm and it melted.

Glen Taul

Oh, okay.

Don Cawthorne

And we didn't have any lights on the car. And so we followed just that black streak ribbon all the way back to Georgetown.

Glen Taul

Oh, my goodness.

Don Cawthorne

And we got in about, oh, I guess about one o'clock or something like that, in the morning. Safely, thank goodness, and the next morning, I had a history class at eight o'clock. Now--Nellie May Gabehart (??) later married Dr. Vincent (??) Pierce.

Horace Hambrick

Yeah, I knew she was Vincent Pierce's wife.

Don Cawthorne

Was a history teacher and I--my seat was about four rows back and right up against the wall. And having been cold all night. when I got in there, and I went to sleep promptly. [laughter] And I didn't know it. I'd only know, but first thing I knew, Nellie May was tapping me on the shoulder. And she said, " Don, what in the world happened to you?" And I told her, we'd driven practically all night. And I was sorry that I'd slept during her class. But you know, she never did do a thing. though. She said, "Well, I understand."

Horace Hambrick

Well, wasn't that sweet?

Don Cawthorne

That's why I remember it.

Horace Hambrick

Sure.

Don Cawthorne

You remember something like that.

Glen Taul

Yes, you do.

Don Cawthorne

[chuckles] She married later married and Dr. Vincent Pierce, who had been very good to the college. Maybe you know know him?

Glen Taul

I don't know him.

Horace Hambrick

He's a trustee. And he was a brother to Stanley Pierce?

Don Cawthorne

That's right.

Horace Hambrick

The other professor

Glen Taul

Oh, yeah.

Horace Hambrick

Chemistry, wasn't he?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. Yeah. Vince--

Horace Hambrick

Three brothers.

Don Cawthorne

Vincent wouldn't--he was a doctor.

Horace Hambrick

Yeah. Yeah.

Don Cawthorne

He wasn't, he wasn't a professor at Georgetown.

Horace Hambrick

He was a urologist.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Glen Taul

Okay. Okay. So you mentioned Dr. Hinton, what was he like?

Don Cawthorne

Oh, he was fine. He was --he was a---soul of integrity. I thought and he could be very stern. And when he told you to do something, he expected [you] to do it. And somewhere or other you expected to do it, after he told you to do it. [laughter] But he was very, he was very competent in what he did. And he was a real leader and aeal good foundation for Georgetown, wouldn't you think so?

Horace Hambrick

Oh my.

Glen Taul

Now, he was--he must have been your tennis coach too?

Don Cawthorne

No, as a matter a fact, we didn't have a tennis coach.

Glen Taul

Oh, but--so how did y'all train for tennis matches?

Don Cawthorne

Played each other.

Glen Taul

Is that right?

Don Cawthorne

Played each other. Shad (??) Jones was number one. Jockie (??) Garra, Russell Garth was number two and I was number three. And I think Chick Carter was either four or five. We had five of usplaying.

Horace Hambrick

And Chip Jones was a Rhodes Scholar.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. He was a--

Glen Taul

Oh.

Horace Hambrick

Dr. W.B. Jones' son.

Don Cawthorne

Right.

Glen Taul

I've heard the name, and I couldn't place it.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah. North Carolina, died several years.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

Real nice guy.

Horace Hambrick

One of the Rhodes Scholars.

Don Cawthorne

.He went into the Foreign Service, didn't he?

Oh.

Horace Hambrick

-Taught--at North Carolina.

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

The University of North Carolina.

Glen Taul

Oh, okay. Well, I didn't Dr. Hinton coach basketball too?

Don Cawthorne

Not when I was playing.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

Holvater (??) coached, football, I guess it was and the basketball coach, I think his name was Collins--Cox, I don't quite remember. I'm mean--we had tqo there in a short length of time.

Glen Taul

Oh.

Don Cawthorne

And--but Holvater was the football coach.

Horace Hambrick

Was it?

Don Cawthorne

Yeah.

Horace Hambrick

I think I remember that name. [clears throat]

Glen Taul

But when you were attending Georgetown, you had majors and minors for--as far as your--the way that the curriculum was set up?

Don Cawthorne

--Yeah, I minored in chemistry and also had a minor, it could have been a major, in foreign languages.

Glen Taul

Okay.

Don Cawthorne

Cause I took Spanish and French, when I was there, and I had one year of Latin and they--I took an exam because I had had French in high school and they gave me college credit, when I passed through the French exam, on that.

Glen Taul

That--that's about the equivalent of today's advanced placement. They do that more regularly today in the high schools.

Don Cawthorne

I'll read--where they are studying the revision of the SAT.

Horace Hambrick

I think so, Don. They always--

Don Cawthorne

I read a long article about that, instead of the multiple choice, they're gonna put some--the way you write--

Horace Hambrick

Sure.

Don Cawthorne

Your handwriting is gonna count, some.

Glen Taul

I don't know how they're gonna grade that fast. [laughter] So, what kind of tiem do we have?

Don Cawthorne

We've been here about an hour. About 45-50 minutes, you've been talking?

Glen Taul

Okay. How much more longer you want to go?

Don Cawthorne

I'm ready to quit now.

Glen Taul

Okay, we can quit now.

Don Cawthorne

Alright.

Horace Hambrick

He's gonna quit--and I've got three stories I wanna tell.

Glen Taul

All right.

Don Cawthorne

All right, good.

Horace Hambrick

Now you don't need to necessarily put them.

Don Cawthorne

Why not?

Glen Taul

Well, I can make provision for that. [laughter]

Don Cawthorne

He can erase them if he has to.

Horace Hambrick

Well, I'll first tell, the first one, go back slowly. Don talking about the hell week.

Don Cawthorne

Can I add one thing?

Horace Hambrick

Yes, sir.

Don Cawthorne

The best thing that ever happened to me at college, was meeting Chris.

Horace Hambrick

Okay. Underline that. [laughter] Talking about hell week, what happened to him. Ours was a little similar, a little bit more complicated. We also were start naked in the hell week proceedings. Well, what they did, maybe they had a little bit later on, they had learned the technique better. They covered us with molases and then put bran flakes on top us. [laughter] And then they had us put our clothes back on and put us in a car, to take this out in county. Snd was in the wintertime.

Glen Taul

Oh!

Horace Hambrick

And every step you took, pulled every hair in your body. And I had to get into a warm tub to get rid of all that with my clothes on. [laughter] Because there was the only way I could have got it, no, I couldn't take my clothes off. Had get in the tub to take the clothes off.

Glen Taul

Oh my.

Horace Hambrick

That's one story. This other one if you wanna--.

Glen Taul

No, that's a good story.

Horace Hambrick

--Eliminate this next one's that's alright, since you've talked about Dean Hinton and. Dean Hinton--when--when I was in church, of course, in the older days, normally people set in a certain row. My family sat in the second row and in the alcove and Dean Hinton would sit on the front row. And so I always almost sit behind him. So I knew Dean Hinton as a-- as a kid. I mean, so---when I went to Georgetown, I knew Dean Hinton [laughter]. But I'll never forget a story told and Don will appreciate this. If that goes off, that's all right. It was in the period of when Maribeth and I were in college, when we were having trouble with the fraternities. That--they were classified by some of the ministers as un-Christian, and they were trying to kick us off the campus and so forth. And I remember one night, we had a meeting in Giddings Hall And some of the fraternity people were there and some of the ministers were there. And Dean Hinton sort of tried to quiet it down and so forth. But I'll never forget, as we came out of the meeting, in the hall, some of the ministers and I'll leave names unrecorded, were there and I was standing in the hall and they got into a rather discuss--heated discussion over it with Dean Hinton, and finally then solved it. He said, "now I'll tell you what, you boys, you all go on back to home, too your rooms. I'm running this damn college." [laughter] That ended it. That end--that ended that discussion right--the little story and end of it right there. Then I got a third story. And this part of this has been added to me, just in the last two weeks. It's a little more of a story about my grandmother that I didn't know, that when she was still living, a Janie Hill wrote about my grandmother. You know, she's just spoken recently to the Woman's Association and told about her Georgetown experience. And she'd been out home a lot. I'd heard part of this story from my grandmother, but Janie filled in some holes, details. My grandmother graduated in 1884. And Janie said, and I had forgotten that my grandmother was in the first co-educational class. Now, that wasn't when we had a co-educational school, because that came in the 90s. But this was in 1884. And she told Janie, that that first class they went to, they came from the old Sam, marched up to school. And they put the girls on the left hand side of the room, and the boys on the right hand side, and they couldn't commingle, even in the classroom. And in those days, they didn't have any dates. And in fact, according to Jane's story, again, only once in the year, in early June, one afternoon that was designated months in advance, from two to four o'clock, a boy could come by and see a girl in the afternoon, once a year. [laughter]

Glen Taul

Oh, my goodness.

Horace Hambrick

But, I had heard my grandmother telling me that my grandfather, who lived in Georgetown and she came from Lawrenceburg. They often communicated by hiding notes in the hedge near the seminary. And Janie told me another story, that my grandmother was a piano major, and she was on the third floor. Climbed this tall locust tree and worked out on the branches, so he could signal and talk to my grandmother.

Glen Taul

What'd he do, throw a pillow or something

Don Cawthorne

Oh, that reminded me--him telling that story about that. We used--the girls in Rucker Hall would drop a string down, and we would get food and tie it on there and they'd pull it up to their room at night. That's the way--that's the way we got them their snacks.

Glen Taul

The girls in Rucker?

Don Cawthorne

The girls, they'd drop--they'd drop a string down, a heavy string down, from the third floor. And you'd be down there, it was planned, pre-planned. You'd be down there with some sandwiches or some candy or something and tied it on there and they'd pull it back up to their room. That's the way they got their snacks, at night. [laughter]

Horace Hambrick

Let me finish part of that story.

Don Cawthorne

I'm sorry, I thought you were through.

Horace Hambrick

That's alright. And that's the way they communicated. And apparently they must have done that a lot. And to show you how adventuresome so my grandfather must have been in those early days. My Grandfather's father was professor at the college for 42 years starting in 1839. And he was so concerned about my grandfather, when he was young, that he saw to it that the farmland was entailed to my mother and my aunt. Because they were afraid that he was so rowdy that he might misappropriate the farmland. But my grandfather did change, [laughter] and later he was on the trustees and later was chairman of the board of trustees. And was chairman of the board of trustees when the doctor--the President that went on to Puerto Rico.

Glen Taul

Oh, Yager.

Horace Hambrick

Yager. Arthur Yager was president, they were very close friends. He was chairman of the board when when Yage was--president, so he turned out all right. [laughter] But he had--in those days, they did that, because he was about 19 when my great-grandfather died and my great-grandfather must have been concerned about that. Well, that's the end ofthose stories.

Don Cawthorne

well, I've enjoyed the lunch. Thank you very much.

Horace Hambrick

Well, and we appreciate your time, Don. We really do and--