Oral History Interview with William Marshall Part II

Glen Taul

Tape two of two, Marshall interview.

William Marshall: Because the grace of God.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

So I--go ahead.

Glen Taul

We were--well you were talking about--

William Marshall

Dorothy Melzer?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Anyway, she--was very affirming and worked closely with me because I was the editor and enabled me to learn some technical things about a newspaper that I would not have learned, had it to not been for her and for her connections. She was one that I hated to say goodbye to. She was probably 40 years old at the time I was there. I remember her pride (??) too. It was a very interesting relationship. It was not a weird relationship.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Or anything like that.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

There was a kind of affection. I understand she didn't stay long. I tried to--I tried to find her.

Glen Taul

Oh, you have?

William Marshall

Yeah. And understand. the last time I tried that some people seemed to think she was alive somewhere. Ralph Curry would have been one to see, but he died. Well, that took that informatio, out I'm not sure Gwen (??) really knows.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

I would always have liked to go back--I'm seventy now and--she's possibly--probably not alive. So, she would have been 15 to 20 years older than I.

Glen Taul

Wow.

William Marshall

So those are the four.

Glen Taul

Now--if you were--did you have classes under Brad Jones?

William Marshall

No.

Glen Taul

Okay. Did--so you had classes under these other three? What--how did their teaching styles differ or were they similar?

William Marshall

George Redding was more dramatic.

Glen Taul

Can you give me an example?

William Marshall

Well, for example, we had pretty well prepared for it because we had a--he had a reputation for doing this. When we got to the part--the life, we had Life of Christ and the life of Paul, he taught both of those and we took those. In those days, religion classes, were--I think twelve hours, at least. He would come in on the occassion that we would have had Jesus in the temple, purging the temple. And he'd walk in and a lot of students hadn't heard what he might do. And he would walk in and very quietly look at the class. And then he would take on this angry look and then he'd turn his table over, which is where he taught from, and acted out. You know, he was a very expressive, he liked students. Probably spent a lot of time with them personally--I'd say he spent a lot of time with students personally. So, I'd say his style was more dramatic, more visual. Whereas, Dr. Coleman Arnold was--he would sit behind his desk and he--I took other courses of course. But under him, I took the Romantics, he would sit behind his desk. And tell us a little bit about the author or the writer. He was able to dig out the personal parts and in a rather brief way describe what might have been the--the inside of a man during the writing and the circumstances. Whether it was a broken heart or whatever. And you--you had a feel that you were gonna, that even if you had read what was written such as Byron or maybe Wordsworth, that you had this feeling that you were going to--to enjoy it in a way you didn't when you read it. And he-- but he would sit there and very gently read. He didn't try to dramatize it. Sometimes he would stand up. But he--he helped you see the humanity and the similarity of life experiences of the poets, but also that they were unusual people. And I think I began to realize a little bit that I was too.

Glen Taul

Now, was he a demanding, as far as homework?

William Marshall

Yes.

Glen Taul

Exacting (??).

William Marshall

Yes. He was--he was a person, though, who would give you an opportunity to do something if you failed to do it. To make it up.

Glen Taul

Now, what about Dorothy Mezler?

William Marshall

In her teaching, I had the feeling she was uneasy. Some of these, you see, have to be judgments, after the fact. You feel differently when you're experiencing it. But looking back on it, you maybe think at least, you understand what was going on. I think she was a new faculty member, and when she was into text, I don't know that she was really easy with it, in journalism. How do you teach journalism?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Other than the give, you know, give assignments that help you to--.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

--Write she--she wouldn't have us write and things like that. I don't remember, as far as her teaching goes, I don't think I was impressed with that. I was impressed because I happened to be in a position as editor, which I later sought, where it thrust us together and I could--I could learn more from her practical side. And the encouragement she gave me to write but.

Glen Taul

Had she had any experience in newspaper writing.

William Marshall

Yes. I don't know how much, I don't even remember that. It's a totally different kind of subject. I don't--basically, I don't remember the details of the journalism class she taught.

Glen Taul

Huh, that's interesting.

William Marshall

They kind of bleed over, the Romantic and the journalism for me, kind of bleed over into each other. [laughter] There was another faculty member I didn't mention, but he taught restoration drama. His name was Albert Johnson. This was after--he influenced me somewhat. Actually Johnston--I think he had some personal problems in his life, and I lost touch with him after I left school and--I think he's dead.

Glen Taul

And did you ever get to know Dr. Hill very well, Sam Hill.

William Marshall

Sam Hill. He knew--only in the sense socially. I mean, Janie was on campus. Sam had just graduated, his son. Sam became a professor--.

Glen Taul

I've met him.

William Marshall

Okay. Only in that way. He knew I was--

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

Called my name and all of that. Again, some of those were the wild days. And I'm sure Janie knew that and was after all president's daughter. [laughter] I don't know whether Janie even went Greek or not. I don't remember.

Glen Taul

Yes, she did.

William Marshall

Did she go Sigma or Del--or KD, those two were the only ones on the campus. It had to be one of the two if she go--went Greek.

Glen Taul

I think she went Sigma [Kappa].

William Marshall

I mean--I was--

Glen Taul

I've interviewed her.

William Marshall

I would see her there at Sigma. So, the president had an open house, I think each year, at graduation, maybe. That's when I think I first got into the president's home and really impressed with that.

Glen Taul

Now that's, you know, what kind of--that house no longer stands. What do you remember about that house?

William Marshall

The great hall. Walking into, it was a large space. And I hope my memory of that is not bleeding over into what it looks like today, because I realized today, there is this great hall and--.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

We moved to the right or to the left to dining and so on. I was just impressed, it was a beautiful home, it was well furnished again, I wouldn't have been able to judge you know, whether it was 15th century or--.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

--Whatever. But I remember being impressed with the beauty of the home and the friendliness of Mr. and--Dr. and Mrs. Hill. She was a very friendly person.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And he was friendly.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

I even got to know him more, I got to know Evelyn a lot better.

Glen Taul

Okay. Now, this quonset hut that you're talking about, was that considered the student center?

William Marshall

Yes.

Glen Taul

And that's where--what was located there?

William Marshall

Do you mean what was in it?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

It was a grill.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And their mail--the mail was deposited there.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

We had (??). I don't remember any tables there at all. So, it was all stand up and take out, or it--that's what I remember about that. And that's all there was. Now, whether--it wasn't considered a place where students would gather as a group. But there were, I think they did call it--I think they called it the student center. I can't think of any other place on campus that was.

Glen Taul

Where did you get your books and supplies?

William Marshall

I want to think it was there too. The food--walk into all that (??). I think it might have been there too, very small. Again, I don't think there was any other place for it to be. There was only four or five buildings there when I was there.

Glen Taul

Now, did you ever have classes in Giddings [Hall]?

William Marshall

Yes, I had astronomy under Dr. Mulligan (??). And I had household physics [laughter] under Mulligan. They were required, you get to choose, you know, in this field [laughter]. I picked the two easiest. Because that wasn't my thing. Anyway, that's what I took there. Of course the Maskrafters productions were there.

Glen Taul

Or they had moved there by that time?

William Marshall

Yes.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

Yes, they were there. And George Redding, by the way--was one of the few professors who ever performed and he was-- he did a couple of Shakesperians and did really well. I'm remember being impressed seeing him do that.

Glen Taul

So you knew where his interest came from in the classroom?

William Marshall

Yes. There's no question about that. [laughter] He was an actor. But, a gentleman, and an authentic one.

Glen Taul

Did you ever run into a bad professor at Georgetown?

William Marshall

In what sense?

Glen Taul

Were they, just absolutely bored you or they really didn't live up to the ability to convey the knowledge?

William Marshall

Probably Dr. Jones--

Glen Taul

W.E. Jones?

William Marshall

But, he taught English.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And I took--the Origins of English Language or something like that. Chaucher, you know Chaucer was in this and I was bored to death. I remember that. That didn't make him a bad teacher.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

The same way with Dr. Weldon (??), who was the psychology teacher.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

He basically--he just got there--he'd give you a C no matter what. All the guys took that course. Sometimes--in the spring, when it was warm again, some of the guys would--and he would doing something on the blackboard [chuckles], they would slip out by window. It was funny. [laughter] He'd never missed them. [laughter] And he would say--he was a gentle, gentle guy. He would say, "now if you miss a class, just bring me a note and tell me why--and I'll excuse you." [laughter] He really said that (??). That's true.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Janie would know. I told Janie just the other day, Dr. Weldon was there. I'd say those--those two, neither one of which was, at that time in my life other than-I admit the proper gentleman's English class subject, particularly when he taught that, really was very boring.

Glen Taul

Yeah, interesting.

William Marshall

Otherwise, a---all my professors were really--Mulligan was very interesting, he was--an astronomer.

Glen Taul

So you were out--you went to Georgetown and you were in the Marines for two years? Okay and then you came back and then graduated in '57? What [was] would your graduation ceremony like? Just describe the whole scene if you can, and what it meant to you.

William Marshall

The only person who was in the chapel, the same chapel, same chairs we have--seats that we have today actually.

Glen Taul

They'll be gone pretty soon.

William Marshall

I know [laughter]. It's it's--time. Alice and I had been engaged about four--five or six months--five months and we were-- we knew that after graduation, we were going to Israel, had our tickets.

Glen Taul

Oh my gosh!

William Marshall

Not right after graduation, at the end of summer, in August we went. So that was all headed--I mean, I was thinking that. I remember being sad that it was coming to an end. I remember being very glad that I had come to this place. I was--remember being sorry that my mother was dead and couldn't come. She had died the year before, with cancer of at 48, and my father, whi by that time to have detached retinas and he considered himself an invalid. He did get to our wedding, but he was not there for graduation. I think--my brother and sister were there. I remember having that reflection and thinking, by my golly, I've made it and see, my younger brother, graduated [from] UK and was already in law school before I actually as a senior--I'm his elder.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Graduated from college with a--a BS. That really--it all runs together, I remember bittersweet and excitement. The trip coming and marriage.

Glen Taul

Was the chapel filled?

William Marshall

Yes, you know--a lot of--not with students I mean, 300, like we have this year would be a huge graduating class

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

But there--there were a lot of people there. I remember the balconies were full, you know, it was comfortably full, it wasn't fully--it wasn't completely full.

Glen Taul

Was there a whole week of activities or?

William Marshall

I don't remember, now I remember--

Glen Taul

Well, was there just baccalaureate--and the graduation?

William Marshall

I don't even--pardon? Go ahead.

Glen Taul

Was it just baccalaureate--and the graduation ceremony?

William Marshall

Yes, and I don't remember the baccalaureate. I'm sure we had it, but I don't remember it, nor do I remember the graduation. [laughter]

Glen Taul

Do you remember your commencement speaker?

William Marshall

No I don't. [laughter]

Glen Taul

I didn't think you did.

William Marshall

I've done that a couple of--three times at different places and I've--grown old enough and wise enough to know that hey, nobody can remember who did it and not be very--anybody that would remember what was said. So no, I don't remember.

Glen Taul

[laughs]--I remember man. Unfortunately, I couldn't hear anything and I wanted to hear him.

William Marshall

Who was it?

Glen Taul

John Sherman Cooper.

William Marshall

Oh my goodness, I would love to heard him, I only met him once in my life.

Glen Taul

His sister graduated from Georgetown and she was having--her class was having one of their anniversaries that year. And so Dr. [Robert L.] Mills?? was able to get him to come and speak. And this is the first time we had commencement outdoors in front of Giddings.

William Marshall

What year was that?

Glen Taul

'73. And he got up there and his voice is soft anyway and there was a wind blowing across the microphone. And he sort of was--that plus him fiddling with his notes. I Just couldn't listen to--hear a word he was saying.

William Marshall

At least you have an impression of--.

Glen Taul

I--yeah.

William Marshall

--Who spoke. I'm going through our family stuff. And I'm putting it all together, I'm sure that we will have--I will have a commencement bulletin--.

Glen Taul

Program.

William Marshall

Yeah, so I--that will tell me and maybe that'll bring something back. But I don't have any recollection of that at all. With Paul Eddleman standing there. And we'd gotten to really know him because of this connection with Israel he had--.

Glen Taul

Oh yeah.

William Marshall

--Had made and--

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Cause we were gonna be the first to go. So, that I remember that, but nothing else.

Glen Taul

Was there--I mean, what was the drill? Was there--you all were called up one at a time and--.

William Marshall

One at a time to receive our diplomas, especially rolled up at the time.

Glen Taul

They were rolled up okay. Were they paper or sheets then?

William Marshall

Gosh, I don't remember. I've got it.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

But I don't remember it. I'm sure it was a high-quality paper, because--it seems to me. And I could be wrong, they may not have been rolled back. I sort of visualize this pile of--

Glen Taul

Roled.

William Marshall

Rolled ones. --I can't be sure about that.

Glen Taul

Was it--wasas it based on a religious worship service or was it--another format?

William Marshall

It was--it was--I'm sure. Without remembering, I'm sure that the person would have been a non-controversial person. But, again, I don't having anything there. Nothing comes back.

Glen Taul

Yeah. Let me see if there's anything we haven't heard that you did the first time. You mind helping me--saying anything about your dating wife and meeting her?

William Marshall

Yeah. This lady who was my house mother and Adams House, her name was Mama Ashby (??). And we had corresponded. She had by then moved over to a girl's house, I've forgotten which one, and became a house mother there, Adams, I think closed up, and she's--she knew about our exchanges. She knew I was getting ready to come back on campus. So, she cut out a picture out of something. It might have been an old previous years Belle--

Glen Taul

Belle of the Blue.

William Marshall

Belle of the Blue, and then she cut out Alice's picture and said, "I want you to know this girl." She didn't tell Alice that. [laughter] So that would be the first--.

Glen Taul

Introduction.

William Marshall

Introduction, though I didn't know what Alice, hadn't seen her--she'd--two years, so she was a junior by the time I got back.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

So she was--the first two years I got out of the Marine Corps, and I wouldn't have known her from Adam. [coughs] Though, when I came back on campus, it was a fun time because I felt--it was really funny, not something you could really print, but I felt--I could tell that having been in the Marine Corps and being older, that there was a new. I was kind of like a new person. And I could tell that--that people respected that. And most of the ones who knew me as Moose, had already graduated, or would be graduating. So in a sense, it was like a new start. I had been with--a couple of girls I was dating in Frankfort. One of them married. The only one I would have been serious about, she--let's not get into it. [laughter] I dated several girls.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And then I had seen Alice, and I had been sensitive to that because of Mama Ashby, which Alice didn't know.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

About that. And a roommate, a man who had been a roommate of mine, at Adams House. A football player, E.B. Smith was dating a girl whom he married, who was a sigma, and she was a friend of Alice. So--and you gotta remember that, in the fall, before any of this happened with Alice, is when I felt for the first time in my life, I really was a Christian, when I received Christ and was rebaptised. So that was--at the church, but that was in the early fall. And by then, I mean, I was from then on, I was going to church a lot. Wednesdays nights as well, a lot of students went to the Wednesday night service. He invited me to go on a blind date, I knew who it would be.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And Silvia had arranged for Alice to go with me. So, we first met, I mean, with any--she knew me and I knew her by that time.

Glen Taul

Right.

William Marshall

Or we knew about each other.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And we went to church that night, and went afterward to the campus cottage.

Glen Taul

Oh.

William Marshall

In one of the booths, and we had sodas.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And whatever. So, that was my first day with Alice. It was--I don't know whether I'm saying too much on this.

Glen Taul

No, you're not. It sort of gives us an idea of what the dating--.

Unkown

Can I just come in here to get something?

William Marshall

That first date would have been in the late fall, after I made my decision. My call to preach as well as my conversion. I was still dating a girl on Frankfort. So, I really hadn't gotten my weight down on Alice at that point. At that point, I'm sure I wasn't really thinking about marriage.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

So our relationship matured. I started dating her more often. I was going home on the weekends to work, actually at Kroger. I had a car by then and I had the GI Bill from the Marine Corps. So, I was financially better off than I was in those other years, and I was more independent. And I dated--I said, I continued dating a girl in Frankfort and I dated a girl from Georgetown, who I liked a lot. Her name is Janet Clayton. She is Warren Nash's mother.

Glen Taul

Oh.

William Marshall

And I knew her--I met his father too, they were Georgetown. But, I began to settle in with Alice. And it was--I don't remember--it would have been, certainly by Christmas, I was dating her alone and had begun to--to see her as a partner. It was them--it was not an up and down relationship. From my point of view, it might have been from hers. I'm sure I'm--takes a while to settle into the idea of dating someone and only someone.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

We didn't really--we all in the Greek--we didn't go through the pinning service or anything.

Glen Taul

Was she a sorority?

William Marshall

She was, yeah, she became president of Sigma Kappa the last year she was--.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And--so, I got involved with some of the Sigma stuff and got to know the girls and her friends in particular. There's not much to tell other than--.

Glen Taul

What kind of obstacles did rules or did they present any obstacles for you all for dating, the college?

William Marshall

Other than the time of being in, I think--I forgot what the weekly, whether it was 181:00 , 182:00, or 183:00And I think the weekend was or Saturday, maybe midnight. But there, you know, you had to be in. Many, times we just walked on campus.

Glen Taul

Even though you had--you had the ability to go off-campus.

William Marshall

We did some, yeah. Usually with another couple, a friend of mine named Joe Mason, and a girl who, who he was dating whom he married and we would drive over to Lexington. And we'd go--we'd drive usually on the back road, that went up where the dam is on Elkhorn Creek, about six or seven miles from campus where the fraternity boy was drowned. And--and that became something fun, we'd--go, just drive.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And then.