Oral History Interview with William Marshall Part I

Glen Taul

This is an unrehearsed interview with William W. Marshall, class of 1957 by Glenn Taul, Archivist of Georgetown College. The interview took place in the Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives in Frankfort, Kentucky on June 13th-- 2002. It is funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Oral History Commission. This is the first of two tapes. From the point of--how did you get to Georgetown?

William Marshall: I graduated from Frankfort [coughs] Frankfort High School in 1949. And attended Eastern Kentucky University on a football scholarship. But I was not mature enough yet really to have started college. And that year at Eastern was a total waste in terms of academics. I attended only enough classes to--to be counted as still a student. I can jokingly say it now, but the only transferable credits in that year was all ROTC. [laughter] And Georgetown College did not even have that. So--

Glen Taul

Oh my goodness.

William Marshall

I basically began Georgetown, from scratch--from scratch. [coughs] Because of that disappointing year, my father said that he simply couldn't justify supporting me to the extent that he did, to go to college. So he advised me to get a job and he made an arrangement with the Bell Telephone Company, he had a number of connections there. And in those days, and I got the job. In those days with Bell Telephone, you started at the ground level, everybody. And so, you start as a line man, a l-i-n-e m-a-n. And the linemen generally have been just the men--women don't do that kind of work. Essentially, climbing a telephone poles, stringing wire, over the cross arms and putting up crossing arms, sometimes replacing the--the pole itself. I'm spending a little time on this because this was a major turning point.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

About whether or not I would go back to college. I was getting good at going up the polls, there was only one person on the team that could beat me. There were about 10 people I finally got to be next to the best, the best happened to be the--the I would call him the Gunny sergeant (??) of the group. [laughter] And he was good, he was also a very strong man. So, one day I was showing off [coughs] and trying to get down the pole like a good climber can when he wants to. Essentially, it means jumping out from the pole, even though you still have your strap on and letting yourself fall maybe eight or ten feet before you--stick your hooks in the pole. Well, I did that and I missed. And consequently--like I had to hug that pole like a bear once I--my feet slipped out--there--in order to keep me from falling all the way down the pole. I had to catch it--catch myself. And in the process, I got a number of big splinters in my arms and body, but one really large one in my left arm, which went in between the tendons and about the size of a pencil, went in very deep. They took me of course to the emergency, they didn't have emergency like we do now. But, to a doctor's office and he--he removed it. This was toward the end of summer and school was not more than--college was not more than a couple of weeks, three weeks away.

Glen Taul

What year was this?

William Marshall

This would have been 1950--. The summer of 1950. And lying on that table. I--seriously said, "do I really want to do this for the rest of my life?" And I concluded I didn't. I also realized that I would be giving up football. I really knew very little about Georgetown College, other than the 1945 Frankfort High School football team was the state championship--was the state--were the state champions in 1945. And when those seniors graduated, Georgetown College called the coach of Frankfort, whose name was Red Herndon (??) and several of the players, particularly the quarterback, and several of the backs, went to Georgetown. And so as a football fan, and even on the JVs, at that time, I would have been a freshman, I was impressed by that, and that's really the only impression I had of Georgetown at all. And because of that, that day on the table, I began to think, what--what can I do? And I decided to literally hitchhike. I didn't have to work for several days, because of the wound. I hitchhiked over to Georgetown, and looked around to find the football field, which I didn't even know where it was in those days.

Glen Taul

Okay. Was it hard to find?

William Marshall

No, I asked somebody and they told me where it was. and, anyway, but the guys were back in the early fall season in prep for the opening game. And I asked, I just walked up to the coach, and I asked him if I could--if I could trial for the team. And he said, "yes." And I said, "well, you know, I can't do it today. But I will come back." And he said, "that's fine." He didn't have any idea who I was or what, you know, what my abilities were.

Glen Taul

So you didn't know him at Frankfort?

William Marshall

It was a--it was a new coach by then.

Glen Taul

Oh, okay.

William Marshall

Harden (??) didn't stay long.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

His name was Hewlett (??) Andy Hewlett was the first coach I had at Georgetown. I had four because they had such a turnover. But and of course--in fact, I don't think any of the Frankfort High men who went to Georgetown ever graduated from Georgetown,. I think they just played a couple of years. And maybe Red Herndon (??) was called, you know, got a job somewhere else. I don't, I don't really know what happened to him.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

But anyway, several days later, I don't know exactly how many days--I went up there, I think on a Wednesday or a Thursday, and went back up on a Monday, after I had talked to the coach and my arm essentially had been sown up and not anything--I hadn't cut any big vessels or anything, just a sore arm that still needed healing so, we wrapped that and I went out for the team. And in those days, Georgetown would take anybody that was warm-blooded. And you didn't have to be a great player. But, that is the beginning, and that's how I went to Georgetown. There were no religious connections at all. No one suggested I go to Georgetown who was a Baptist or somebody else. This was strictly the, I guess you'd say the expression of what was going on with me about football. So, it was that that drew me there.

Glen Taul

So your father, what was his occupation?

William Marshall

My father was a rural, rural mail carrier from which he retired.

Glen Taul

Okay, and you said he was a Baptist?

William Marshall

Yes, they were members, all of the family at that time were members of First Baptist Church of Frankfort.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

I was baptized at 10. But, as you'll hear later and probably remember in my earlier conversation, that as time went on, I realized I--that was a child's decision that to me, was not authentic.

Glen Taul

You went into some detail about becoming a Christian, the last time. And you went to California?

William Marshall

Yes.

Glen Taul

Aand there was a time--and so you went to Georgetown and you stayed for a short time.

William Marshall

Three years.

Glen Taul

For three years. Okay.

William Marshall

Think of it in terms of it took me six years. Not counting the Marine Corps to--to graduate to get my college degree.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

It took me actually, five years of Georgetown.

Glen Taul

So, you spent actually five years at Georgetown? In '57.

William Marshall

'50-51, '52-53, then the Marine Corps in '53-54,' 55. Back to Georgetown in '55. '55 and '56, '56-57. Graduated in-- '57.

Glen Taul

Was football the most important part of your life at Georgetown?

William Marshall

it certainly was, the first two years at Georgetown and I had become---by then, I was a starter. And so I got to play a lot of ball, ando so it was very enjoyable to me. My attachment to Georgetown, in terms of--in a personal way, that might be related to the spiritual side of my life. Where the friends I made, some on the football team and others not on the football team, who were practicing Christians whose-who were--especially the football players, who were able to, to to be a good athlete and at the same time, reflect Christian morality. I was impressed by that. Even though it didn't really change my life, I still as we say at Georgetown, I went out the road a lot with the guys or some vets there that I fell in with before I was (??). You know, I did a lot of drinking and still not a serious student academically. I passed and that third year, however --'52-53, I had begun to do some writing. And I was--actually when--when Cranford then, she's the daughter of Dr. Cranford, who taught at the college.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

She's been (??). She was in Sigma Tau Delta, which is not a very English fraternity. And because of a couple of poems I wrote, a couple of them were published in The Georgetonian, I began to feel not only some giftedness in that area. Because I was--as I look back, I was a very contemplative kind of individual, did a lot of walking, sitting and listening to nature. We lived by the river, I often spend time by the riverbank just sitting. So that--that part of me, it didn't really begin to express itself in some creative way until Georgetown College with Dr. Coleman Arnold was one of the--

Glen Taul

Oh, yeah.

William Marshall

--Prime movers, I especially became impressed with the Romantic period of English literature. And I would say that, along with the continued pleasure of football and the meeting of some Christian friends, some of whom are--our friends today enabled me to leave the campus, when I did and '53, with a strong sense of well being in that college. I knew everybody, they knew me. I had a nickname by them that was given to me. The name of Bull Moose and a lot of people today who don't know about my career, but who remember me in college, would remember me as Bull Moose. Some people still do that, so there was an affection about--there was an affection that I began to have at Georgetown College that, while it didn't culminate in a Christian experience or dedication. When the time came--when I left the Marine Corps. I served my time and got out, I had no other desire, none, than to go back to Georgetown, other than say hello to my family and spend a couple of days there I was, because it was just before fall. When I left college and part of the reason I left college, was they discontinued football. The '53 football season, which is in the fall, would not have had a team, so that I'm sure shaped that. I don't know how far you want me to go into this. I left-- No, go into it. Well.

Glen Taul

And if you feel like going into it, yeah.

William Marshall

I--this wanderlust and this unsettledness, certainly continued in '53. Because I--through my--through my grandfather's relationship to--actually through my grandmother's relationship to a sister of hers, who was married and lived in Santa Maria, California. And decided I wanted just to go out there and work. And my family of course, by that time, I was what twenty-one, didn't stop me from doing that. Well, I spent about two months in Santa Maria living with my--she would have been a Great-Aunt and her husband. And I worked in a potato bagging company, fifty pound bags of potatoes. And that's what I did for an income and found that there was a semi-pro football team there, the Santa Maria Redskins. [laughter] And I played for them--it was--I became the punter for the team and played--I was too small to be a tackle, these guys were you know, semi-pro big guys, you know, I couldn't fight well.

Glen Taul

They were still even large back then.

William Marshall

Yes. [laughter] I mean, like, you know, 240 was slower and (??), and certainly my best weight was 205. But anyway, that's what I was doing. And then my father sent the notice I had gotten in the mail to be drafted. Because I had dropped out of school.

Glen Taul

Oh, okay. This is when the Korean conflict was going on.

William Marshall

That's right. So I had to report--of course, report in Kentucky, to the draft office. The draft board. I still don't==you know, I don't know exactly why, but I'm attributing my decision rather than to go into the army. Which, to which in which I would have been drafted. I don't know whether it's because I didn't want to--I could--I can remember a few things like this, but these are pieces of it. I didn't want to go to Fort Knox, it was not far from home. It didn't seem romantic to me.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

I had an uncle. He was still living at the time, who had been a Marine in World War Two, and I was always impressed with him. My mother said I looked more like him more than anyone in our family. And he was and I just, you know, I had maybe some admiration for him. And then my cousin, who was my best friend for a number of years, he was a year, a year ahead of me in high school. And he was killed in the Korean War.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And I don't know a sense of obligation. You don't know what goes on in a young man's mind. And so, I joined the Marines.

Glen Taul

So, you had the opportunity to join any branch of the service you wanted to despite the fact that you got a draft notice.

William Marshall

I could have joined any branch with, but the Coast Guard.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

Particularly, they were looking for Marines and they would have probably made an exception, even if that weren't true.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

So--

Glen Taul

That sort of explains when my dad got his draft notice after graduating from Mars Hill and he joined--he joined the army but he still joined rather than being just drafted.

William Marshall

Well, that's that's essentially what happens.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Once you--you choose the branch of service that if you're entitled to--to go there. So anyway, I was--I became a Marine. Trained in South Carolina, all these details I'm not sure-- at Parris Island.

Glen Taul

Yeah. Right.

William Marshall

The thing I'd like to say about the Marine Corps, two things. One is--it was in the Marine Corps that I began to be a man. To take responsibility, to be aware of--of team-ship. I wouldn't have called it that or anything like--. [laughter] But, but the obligation you have to others to save your life. And the requirements that all military people have. Make your own bed, shine your own shoes, all of that. All of that--I don't mind this going into the thing--into the tape, but I was still pretty much a rebel. And I had several fights, mainly because I didn't do what the sergeant wanted us to do. So I am, I was still pretty feisty. I think having those fights though, helped me to grow up more. And it got stuff out of me and helped me realize what you know--what am I doing? The war--the war--

Glen Taul

Okay. Did you ever have that problem with your football coach?

William Marshall

I only had a--yeah, there's a story to tell before. Back in this period, I was at Georgetown, the first time. We had lost a game to Chattanooga, Tennessee, and we got slaughtered. And the coach didn't think, even though we were slaughtered and outmanned. You know, there were a couple of All-Americans on their team, big guys, and we were a small team. He was still kind of taking it out on us a little bit, didn't think we had been putting out as much. You know, I think he felt we were let down once we realized how good they were and how they were gonna walk all over us. Anyway, he was giving us a hard time on Monday. Normally that was a no pads day, and things like that. And I remember--Coach was George Claiborne (??). Jerry Claiborne's brother.

Glen Taul

Oh, is that right?

William Marshall

Yes. [coughs] His older brother. And he was making the team run wind--this was after, after we had done all of the head knocking and stuff like that. He was making us do 10 yard wind sprints. Get down on the line, run as fast as you can for 10 yards and stop. He continued to do that, and I don't know whether I really wasn't putting out or but, he said, "Moose, if you don't put out 10 laps you're on the field" (??). And he singled me out. And I thought I was putting out when I ran that time and he said, "Okay Moose, 10 laps." And I got really mad and I said some words to the coach I shouldn't have said and I walked off the field and hung up my uniform. I was gonna punish him, I'm sure that's what I was thinking I was gonna do, by quitting the team.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And I did. And those were, oh gosh, that was a very, very low time in my life. Because here was this sport I love so much and it's so much a part of me after about 24 hours afted I'd quit, I realized what I had done.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

I didn't want to tell my father. To make the story short, I mean, the next game was against Union University and we should have really walked over them. We didn't have many substitutes, and I was a good defensive player and they beat us 7 to 6. And I always got the blame for that. I was sitting up in the stands, and I really was cheering for our team.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

But, I had a terrible, terrible, terrible feeling. It's probably the most depressing time I've ever had in my life. But, to make it short, unawares--unaware of the coach, excuse me, the one---a couple of guys on the team. One of them had been my roommate at the KA house, his name was Bill Sparks. They went to the coach--well, let me back up. I went to the coach, the very--about two days after I had quit. And he was not married, lived over in a shotgun house there just behind Hinton (??) Field.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And I don't think that house is there anymore.

Glen Taul

Probably not.

William Marshall

But he was--he was there. And I knocked on the door and he said, "Come in." And I said, "I'm really sorry, and I apologize." Everything I knew how to do. He said, "I'm sorry, Moose, I can't do that, not after what you did in front of the team." And so I really kind of thought it was over, really I did. But I learned that a couple of the football guys had gone to the coach and said, "coach, we really would like for you know, to consider letting Moose come back." I learned this--I mean, I wasn't present. It was what they call a skull session in the classroom talking about what your plays are and working on that. And so anyway, the coach had been talked to by a couple of these guys, and what he apparently worked out in terms of his own ability to--to keep his integrity about this. He said, "alright, if the team will vote--we'll have a vote. If the team wants him back--we'll take him." It's up to the team. They had the vote never, and there were a number that voted against me. They really didn't like what I did. [laughter] Anyway, they they voted for me to come back and I have a hard time-- I guess--hard time telling this.

Glen Taul

Right. Was this near the end of the last year before you went into the Marines or went out to California?

William Marshall

Yes. Anyway, when I went down--they then called cage to pick up my uniform. It was still on--they hung them on hooks and turned them in?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

It was still there and I got it back and walking into that dressing room that day. When you get to be an old man, you can't tell the stories as easily as you used to.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Anyway, a number of them came up to me and said, "welcome back." And that may have been the most humiliating experience I've ever had in my life. And it was the most vivid gift of forgiveness that--that I've ever known--even since then. So I think I played, you know, I went back on the team, I guess for the next game. I really don't remember having-- I could easily see because if I looked at the schedule, I could see when we played Chattanooga and then Union and I don't remember any more games. Anyway but, I came back and played and they announced the season was gonna be over. George Klaver (??) left, he became the Superintendent of Daviess County High School. He and I remained good friends for years. [Coughs]

Glen Taul

Why did Georgetown--do you know why Georgetown discontinued football?

William Marshall

My understanding, it was a financial factor. And of course then, I had no concept of the administration, what was going on. There was no discussion among the students, but my understanding was that they simply couldn't afford to do it.

Glen Taul

[H. Leo] Eddleman had assumed the presidency by that time.

William Marshall

Yes, he had. He was not the President when I left in '53 As I recall, it was still Sam Hill.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And then I think Eddleman came--he was certainly there when I came back.

Glen Taul

Right.

William Marshall

So, which of those two years, whether it was '52 or '53 that he became president.

Glen Taul

So this must--I'm trying to think back in my--just what little knowledge I know of athletics at Georgetown, this must be the first or second time we discontinued football, I'd say since football has been at Georgetown

William Marshall

you know, that could have been also what happened to that '45 team. I don't know--they had football, before the-- Dr. [Robert] Mills tried to discontinue it for a while, there in the early 70s. The trustees voted him down. Um-hmm. I didn't know that.

Glen Taul

Basically for the same reasons, for financial (??)

William Marshall

Of course, that's a characteristic of a--big or small college. It's a drain rather than an asset.

Glen Taul

Unless you're a Notre Dame or one of the powerhouses. I can't see anything but-- Yes.

William Marshall

Going down the-- Not much.

Glen Taul

So where did you live when you came to Georgetown?

William Marshall

The first time?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

The first time-- [tape cuts out]

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

I lived at the KA house the first year, I pledged the first year. And to be truth--you know, my mind is fuzzy whether I stayed the second of the three years I was at Georgetown the first time or whether I transferred out since I didn't--I didn't go all the way and becom a KA. Either the second year I was there or the third, I lived--

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

For two years, I lived at a place called Adam's House, which was--

Glen Taul

I'm trying to think of--.

William Marshall

--On Main Street. If you remember where the Lambda Ki (??) house was, or the Pike house. I know you remember that. You turn to your left, where Main Street, it's in the last block of Main Street on the right, before you make the turn to go down to the underpass and that. It was either the second or third house. There were about 16 or 18 guys that lived there. Had a house mother, her name was Momma Ashby (??) she was influential. She tried her best to help me you know, begin---she was a very strong Christian, but she was not pushy.

Glen Taul

Okay. Yeah.

William Marshall

She always left her door open, if anybody wanted to talk, up until 10 o'clock. And she took a liking to me--and we became friends. So I actually corresponded with her during the Marine Corps. See, this--this part was there too. I'm glad you're asking about where I lived because that lady impressed me as being a really fine or what a Chris--what I thought a Christian ought to be. And she liked music, and I liked music. So sometimes I'd go over there and just sit with her and listen to music and we'd talk.

Glen Taul

Well, living in the--was the housing for men really limited at that time, on campus?

William Marshall

Yes. Yeah, there really only was Pawling Hall. That was the only actual dorm that there was for men and cross--across that was Rooker Hall (??), which was huge.

Glen Taul

Right.

William Marshall

And that's where the girls were, plus the dining area. You know--the dining room.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

But that was it. The girls also--the sororities had houses they you know, didn't have the complex they have now.

Glen Taul

What was it like living in the KA House?

William Marshall

Well, for me it was.--it was fun. But, I lived up on the top floor. I don't remember having many impressions--because again, I was not a serious student. And some of the guys there were and they tended to pair guys with their interests or whatever, and I was paired with a football player. And I know that I wasn't really drawn to be--I knew that, that I wasn't really drawn to be a part of a fraternity, even though I was a pledge. And I had a lot of guy friends, football players and friends who were Phi Kaps and I had some, you know, it was--I was ambivalent or about fraternities in general, in general, but not because I had any religious. I mean, I wouldn't have judged them--I would be--I was a party boy, still.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

You know, and so--I don't know--

Glen Taul

There was a time--it's been said, oh I wonder if Ken Freeman (??) was there--that there was a lot of antagonism through--toward fraternities from the ministerial students.

William Marshall

Yeah, there was. I wasn't part of that ministerial group--I don't remember them being like people said they were, you know, Holy Joes and all. I don't really remember that. I didn't feel that way. There certainly were a lot more young men and women who probably weren't thinking of the pastoral ministry. There were a lot more men at that time, planning for the ministry. And a good many of my friends there became pastors and or missionaries. A bunch of that group that I was with became missionaries. So it was a--it was a climate where--there were a lot of reasons for that, I think.

Glen Taul

Yeah. So did you live in the Adams House for the rest of--

William Marshall

Yes, until I went in the Marine Corps.

Glen Taul

And that was basically an independent men's that--it didn't belong to a club or an organization.

William Marshall

Right. But, they didn't call them independents you know, they didn't--

Glen Taul

You know, I'm not aware of that. Yeah.

William Marshall

--Have that independence, fraternity or sorority? I don't know what they call it, now they have a name for it. They've given it Greek letters, but basically saying to folks who don't want to be a Greek. Okay, well, that's what this was, there was a time when they havd the--they were independents and the word---the word on the campus would have been, he's a Greek, he's a KA, she's an independent. So that's the terminology that I remember.

Glen Taul

Was there a certain camaraderie among of Adam's House residents?

William Marshall

Yeah it--

Glen Taul

Similar to the Greeks maybe or?

William Marshall

Yeah, because there were three of us in one room, and all three of us played on the football team. So certainly, in the rooms assigned, there was camaraderie. And certainly, we knew each other's names, but I don't remember having Adams House meetings unless there was-- mean, we didn't have monthly meetings like a fraternity would or sponsor things other than a float in the parade--

Glen Taul

Did you all have teams and intramural sports?

William Marshall

Actually, they--I'm vague on that, I played intramural basketball. And I played, I don't remember whether it was independent, what they call an independent team orwhether we were Adams House. I can't really remember. But, the Greek for course did have individual Greek teams. Did y'all have social occasions? No.

Glen Taul

Okay. So what was the social life like? What kind of things did you do?

William Marshall

At Georgetown?

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Obviously very different from today. [laughter] There were very few--proportionately there were very few students who had a car. Consequently to Lexington and all the traveling--there were more on campus people than there were commuters. That's why we got them--I think that's why we got to know people on campus easier. The social life would have been, of course, again, the Greeks had their, their social lives, formals and all of that. And there was interchange there. Certainly, they had annual Christmas occasions. They had Campus Sing, where groups of the sorority or fraternity sang. There was stunt night, where you--you know, put on something silly or whatever. But social you know, there were no dances, other than the foot--and, of course, not everybody was that crazy about football. But the football and basketball, were a draw to students, and many of them did stay because they didn't have any place to go. and no way to get there. There were very few options of social activity when we were there. Whereas today, all kinds of extra curricular, it's a huge extra curricular.

Glen Taul

Well, it's kind of ironic today, students have the mobility, to go out off campus and do things. So and this is sort of a problem when I went to school. But--so the Food and (??) Services will do all these activities to keep them interested in staying on campus. In your day, you had the problem of no cars and people were basically trapped on campus. And there wasn't that much thought given to extracurricular activities.

William Marshall

That's true.

Glen Taul

Aside from the literary--debates or--what other clubs that you could belong to.

William Marshall

There were a number of clubs.

Glen Taul

Yeah, did you belong to any of the clubs?

William Marshall

Sigma Tau Delta was the honorary English (??) fraternity. When I came back in '55 and '56, I was the editor of The Georgetonian. Continued doing a variety. Played one more year of football, then I was no longer eligible. Gosh, I sang in the choir early, the men's chorale, I mean the chorale. You know, all of those things people could do. You gotta remember that--I don't have the exact enrollment in mind except Chapel was required and they took roll. If you missed so many, that's it. And the chapel was always--very rarely was it not something religious. And there was planning and most--there were events on campus that were primarily religious, such as focus weeks. And I can remember being impressed by these professionals. Howard Butt (??) George Schwizer (??) not Schweitzer (??). Just a number of very bright, congenial people. Kerney Keegan (??) was a great pianist, he'd come in and did the piano stuff. I mean, that was that was good for us in those days. Now you know, you got to have River Dance [laughter] to--to get people to come. So anyway [laughter].

Glen Taul

Boy, that was changed--since then.

William Marshall

You know, I was never bored.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

On campus.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

You know, I went to church occasionally.

Glen Taul

Well, what did y'all did--since you didn't have--there wasn't a college sponsored--social activities, what did you do just with your friends or whenever for extracurricular activities, recreation.

William Marshall

First time around, before I came back from the Marine Corps, at which time I would have a car then. Basically--I don't know that we did anything socially other than what was planned by the college and if we were invited by say, a Sigma girl to go to one of their formals, we did. I mean, so there was interchange not everybody, but during--when the Greeks would do their things, often their partner would be the--somebody from home or somebody on campus who wasn't a Greek. There was that kind of interchange. I just can't think--I can't think of any, any real--I mean, we you know, basically sat around and talked.

Glen Taul

Because you didn't have television.

William Marshall

No.

Glen Taul

You didn't have--did you have radio that you listened to?

William Marshall

Yeah, Moon River was very popular in those days. It came on either at 10 or 11, but it was music to go to sleep by, out of Louisville. I always listened to that--that one. That was a popular station.

Glen Taul

So, where--where did you eat? I mean, what were the eating--did you eat at Adams House or did you eat at Rucker?

William Marshall

We did--we didn't eat at Adams House. We could cook, I mean, you could have light things, like you could eat a sandwich or a soft drink or something. Mostly I ate at Rucker, which is where the general cafeteria was. There wasn't another--there was another place, and I think one one or two pieces of the foundation still exist, between the chapel and Getting's (??) there was what we call the Quonset Hut, he called it the (??) and there you could get sandwiches and cokes and french fries. And that was also where the mail was distributed in those days. So that was it. And then there was Favas (??) downtown, which still exists and a lot of us, at the weekend, that was a big deal. [laughter] And so you would go down there for Sunday lunch. The White Star was there then and that was another place where--where we went for hamburgers or whatever. Campus Cottage, have you ever heard of Campus Cottage? You walked down directly in front of the new art center, going towards town. The next block--it's right across the street from the parking lot of the First Baptist Church.

Glen Taul

Oh, I know where you're talking about.

William Marshall

It's a--probably a 1800s building. It's one storey.

Glen Taul

--It's a long building.

William Marshall

Yeah. Right now, it had its yellow doors on it. And I worked there washing dishes a couple of months just--

Glen Taul

Now, I understood students ran--operated that.

William Marshall

No they he--used them for him--they may have at some time. But the years I was there, his name was Soup Bean. We called him Soup Bean. I can't think of his last name, he was an adult.

Glen Taul

But he was an independent businessman?

William Marshall

Yes. He owned the--

Glen Taul

He wasn't employed by the college and that wasn't a college thing.

William Marshall

No, it was just a--

Glen Taul

A businesses that was operating.

William Marshall

I'm sure most of his clientele was--were students.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

Wish I could think of his last name. Many people my age would know him. But yeah, that was the other place that was close. Nothing else, had to walk all the way downtown, which is not far.

Glen Taul

No.

William Marshall

The people that had cars as I said they went to Lexington. There was one big movie house over there then, on Main Street. A place called The Green Dome, out Lexington Road on [U.S.] 27, going toward Lexington on past, just before you get to the overpass. The structure stayed a long time, I think it's gone now. But, that was the place where the sororities and fraternities rented for the dances and it was basically a dance hall and people go there. It was too far to walk so you had to have a car.

Glen Taul

Yeah. So did you go as groups when you went eat or?

William Marshall

Two or three, you know, yeah you--nobody ate alone or anything.

Glen Taul

What were the hours for eating at Rucker?

William Marshall

They would have been probably, I'm guessing--they weren't unusual hours, but they strictly were for the meal. They weren't 24 hours.

Glen Taul

Right.

William Marshall

I don't even remember whether they serve breakfast or not, I think they did. But if--you know think of it is 11 to 1 or something like that for the meals five to seven for dinners and I think--I'm not sure they were even open in the summers. If they were, I think they only had one meal, probably lunch. So, social life, I guess you'd say it thrust some people together more closely, in smaller groups, other than the Greeks. And the size of the student body made it possible for anyone who wasn't a recluse to, to really get to know names, I probably knew everybody. By 1953, I probably knew everybody on campus.

Glen Taul

What were--you had you--had any sense of what direction you wanted to go as far as a vocation? It sounds like if you didn't, in your first period at Georgetown. Did you have any idea what you of wanted to major in or you were just feeling yourself out? As far as--

William Marshall

Well that's where, it would have been my third year is where English and write--English literature and writing came into an awareness and why basically majored when I came back in literature and I kept a minor in Phys. Ed. I didn't really know what I wanted to be, you know, I was good for the other guys who wanted to be a coach, I was an athlete, I was going to be prepared to do that. I didn't have any sense of call to it. Tell me if you will follow up on this, but there's an aside here that--that's important to me.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

But has nothing whatever to do with Georgetown. My hometown is Frankfort.

Glen Taul

Is that right right? Do you still have a manuscript for that? Right.

William Marshall

Born and raised and had a close friend who was--became a graduate of Davidson and was an attorney. And maybe the County--[sighs]--county-- he certainly was either the county attorney until his death, and he's been dead several years. But his name was Billy Brooks. And Billy and I--again, these were the drinking days. We'd go out and get a couple of beers together. And he was--he was a poet type as well. And we didn't really have a close relationship until he was in law school at UK. And he and I spent a lot of time together, making up songs. And one of them was good. And one of them, we actually had the band perform at multiple cotillion dances. It's called The Bachelors Club in Frankfort. [laughter] And they had an annual Christmas dance and that was a fun time. And so he and I did--did the duet with the band playing our number.

Glen Taul

No--I could come up with the--the tune and some of the--- Fill in the words (??)

William Marshall

Yeah, I'd have to--but I could. [laughter] I'd have to reach back. [laughter] But anyway, that--even though that was a I guess you would say an aside, but our friendship was very strong. And I'd really rather--always when we were home, or I'd go over to UK law school, to stay with him. He was in kind of a--he'd already gotten out of a fraternity in his (??) graduate school.

Glen Taul

Oh, okay.

William Marshall

So he was Kappa Sig.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

But, anyway, I stayed with him. And we would you know, basically go out and get a couple of beers and, and start--

Glen Taul

My goodness!

William Marshall

--Harmonizing and writing and he really had--he was bright. And he really was a bright--he won honors, I think he graduated either summa or magna from Davidson, good basketball player, started there for a number of years. Anyway, that friendship is the only friendship I had where--and when I look back on it, where we fed each other because we had this common poetic streak and the beer I think, probably more than we even realized, loosen us up to you know, to just emote. And I'm getting away off [laughter] But it is part--

Glen Taul

I know!

William Marshall

It is part of what ultimately became the drive that brought me back to Georgetown when I got out of the Marine Corps. Because I was already a member of Sigma Tau Delta.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

And now, by that time, I had begun to think of myself maybe the editor of [a] local paper or a writer.

Glen Taul

Who is your most memorable professor?

William Marshall

You stop me when I'm recording too much--

Glen Taul

No, that's fine.

William Marshall

--On any subject, okay? Because you're trying to bear down on Georgetown, aren't you? It's hard to I will, I won't order them, okay.

Glen Taul

Right.

William Marshall

But there were three or four that--four really that. The first one was Brad Jones, who was the athletic director. And I really admired that man and he took a liking to the boys. They never had a child. You know, he's always willing though, to do that. And he, he, I guess the affection of a man. Sometimes, I had a job in the gym when I--that last year, because that's how I paid my way at Georgetown, along with a very modest football scholarship. He would--I was oversleeping. By that time, I was living in Fisher House. And that's where it was KAs, Adams House one year, Fisher House.

Glen Taul

Fisher House. For a year.

William Marshall

And that was very close to campus. And he would come over and shake me and say, [laughter] "you've got to get over there Moose." If I didn't, I mean, he didn't have to do that.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

He could have fired me or he could have done whatever. But he, several times came over--and got me to go do my job. So he--his--his personal relationship was meaningful to me. And he taught me to do the shotput and I was on the KIAC tournament a couple of years and it was because of him. I never had thought of shotput, I didn't even know what the thing was.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

The second one would have been George Redding, who was a Bible teacher, of course.

Glen Taul

Yeah.

William Marshall

And I really got to know him best when I came back--'56-57. So he married Alice and me, at our request, when we married in August of '57, after we graduated.

Glen Taul

Okay.

William Marshall

He helped me to learn to begin to enjoy and like the bible. I probably hadn't, even though I was--went to church and all that stuff. I--he helped me to appreciate the value of the bible. It was more--it was more than intellectual awareness, it was visceral. Because I still--there are things about that that still reside here. The third one would have been Dr. Coleman Arnold but he---in his area, he'd still be number one.

Glen Taul

Yeah. Yeah.

William Marshall

He was such a patient man. And he could make the poet's, like, especially the Romantics, he really, apparently, of course to me--he knew at all and he may not have been a great student, I don't know about his background, but I know that he made the Romantics come alive. That's when I really got turned on with literature, particularly the Romantic period and I ended up as I said, a majored in literature. His influence--he was---chaperone--not a chaperone. He was a faculty representative of Sigma Tau Delta, and we always met at his home. He hosted--his wife and he--he had a son, Jack Arnold, who was in school with me. Oh, Jack is dead. I believe Jack died, there's another, younger Arnold, whose---name he was younger than I-- apologize--I can't think of his name. But their home was open, and he again, there were two or three of us that he was obviously looking back was nurturing. I was one of them, I think Gwen (??) was another. A woman, a girl whose name was Martha Banta then. B-a-n-ta. She became the editor, associate editor of The Georgetonian the year I left and I graduated. And she--she worked--she worked for the career as a writer, for a number of years until her divorce from Phil. And they moved--married a man who--they live in Maryland. I keep up with her. The fourth person anyway--Coleman Arnold, in that side of my life. The fourth person would have been Dorothy Melzer, M-e-l-z-e-r. She had not been on campus earl--the early years but she had come there apparently in the gap. So---

Glen Taul 1:

Martha Banta So, she's in the second half?

William Marshall 1:

Yes.

Glen Taul 1:

Of this

William Marshall 1:

Yes. She was the--she taught journalism, and she was the faculty sponsor for--for Georgtonian and the yearbook. I took journalism, I don't remember one or two, one and two. I took all the journalism they offered under her. And again, and she lined it--she helped [me] get to know [coughs] a fellow by the name of John Sutterfield (??), who was then the owner and editor of the Georgetown D She made an arrangement for us to---that's where The Georgetonian then was printed.

Glen Taul 1:

Okay.

William Marshall 1:

And so we spent, I spent a good bit of time, every week in the shop, watching the old monotypist whose name was Tiny, he weighed about 400 pounds.

Glen Taul 1:

Yeah.

William Marshall 1:

And then taking their type. You don't need to hear all this, but it's--all done--it was all done with molten lead.

Glen Taul 1:

Yeah.

William Marshall 1:

That was the name of it. So we had to do the proofs and learned how to use the markings, you know, the editorial markings?

Glen Taul 1:

Yeah.

William Marshall 1:

Omit and you know, and that was kind of fun. And then after the publication, we would take it to the various houses on campus. And then there was a small number, somewhere in the general location. But she, she and she affirmed, very affirming of my writing. By that time, Gwen's husband was on campus teaching English. And he was maybe the--I'm not sure what his role was, but he's.