Orlin Corey
1:00This is an unrehearsed interview with Orlin Corey, a Professor of Speech at
Georgetown College, 1952 to 1959 by Glen Taul, archivist. The interview took place in the Ensor Learning Resource Center of Georgetown College on September 9th, 2000. Too, and this is one of those critical issue--critical points in Georgetown's history is the proposal to move the campus from its traditional spot. And what were the, from your knowledge, what were the circumstances surrounding that and how did it come about? Well, Glen, this is September, the--Glen Taul
2:00Ninth.
Orlin Corey
3:00Ninth, 2002, I have some small confusion of overlaying things I now know against
things that I remembered and knew at that time, when that was happening in the 50s. So it's a little--it's difficult for them to respond to fairly to you of the subject. So, I'm going to walk there between then and now. I now know [laughter] that there was great interest among some of the prominent Baptist ministers and some individuals in their churches, but specifically, three or four Baptist ministers in Louisville in the 50s, who agreed amongst themselves, that it was a shame and--many of them spoke out about this. That this was the population center of the state--which had the greatest num--greatest concentration of Baptists, as well as the general public, of any location in the state, but did not have a single Baptist educational institution there, apart from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And at the same time, the Baptists of Jefferson County, I'm now subbing it out, because they were--thinking and saying in different ways, were paying a high percentage of whatever they gave the quality program for education, which always went out of the city and their young people had to go out to benefit from it. So it's a little of that issue, as in secular history between, you know, why should we pay for the school when we don't have anybody going to it?Glen Taul
4:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
5:00Which is short sighted in the secular sense.
Glen Taul
6:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
7:00And maybe in the other sense, too, I don't know. But there was some of that
feeling and some of these people were also on the board at Georgetown College. And some of them, not necessarily the same people. So you see, I'm giving you a very sort of out of focus summary. And I need lots of papers here to be more specific on the names, were also on the State Education Commission, which may not be the right term for the general associations, or Kentucky Baptist Convention, however they style themselves now.Glen Taul
8:00Right.
Orlin Corey
9:00For that committee, which in effect administers the properties, educational
properties that the convention owns, but some of them had dual responsibility. And so it came about that Georgetown was seeking a new president Some of these people on that board--Glen Taul
10:00so this is like in--'54?
Orlin Corey
11:00This would have been 1950. Well could have started the search in '53.
Glen Taul
12:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
13:00Very well because Dr. [Sam] Hill left early in '53, there was an interim, Dr.
(??) Judd (??)Glen Taul
14:00Right.
Orlin Corey
15:00But somewhere in that time, see, I'm not up close on that. A couple of the
ministers who had this feeling about education and low level Baptist education in Louisville were also on that committee. Because they were Georgetown trustees, to search for a president, who would then be also ratified, presumably by the state board. I didn't realize until recently, but apparently there was sort of a dual board, or there's a junior board that had the local responsibility, but they were approved apparently, the board members were approved by the larger committees.Glen Taul
16:00Right.
Orlin Corey
17:00Sort of a dual control, which is interesting, I didn't know that at the time.
Anyway, they were involved in that. Now, it's-- now, their point of view, basically, as I understand it now and as it came to be perceived then gradually, because there was no public announcement of this. These were priv--these were thoughts expressed in sermons and public statements in Louisville to their congregations about their anxiety. There's a basis for saying that about what I'm speaking of. The inefficiency of their giving money to what they didn't get benefit from. But they--basically, their ideal was to consolidate the educational resources of the state. State Baptist is what I mean when I say state, and to re-evaluate these in terms of efficiency and costs and all other criteria that would be appropriate. To the end that there would be a consolidation, so that resources could be brought together and marshaled in a way that would then contribute to the founding of a larger Baptist educational institution in the state.Glen Taul
18:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
19:00And a number of them naturally wanted this to be in Louisville, for the reasons
I already stated.Glen Taul
20:00Right.
Orlin Corey
21:00I think that's a pretty fair summary of their concept. Now, how, what strategies
would be used to get to that goal, that's a different matter. But that was the goal, and probably a rather reasonable concept. Of course, then you'd have to deal with human nature and all of these other institutions who have had their vocal boards, traditions, alumni, faculty, associations, and so forth, which is difficult to weigh the value of these. Now, one of the ministers, because he was a pastor in the city at that time at one of the Baptist churches and at the (??) oratory (??) was also an Old Testament professor at Southern Baptist Seminary. And that was Dr. Henry Leo Eddelman, who styled himself as H. Leo Eddleman. And he was very much of that group, and they were compadres about this. And while the Louisville components of the board did not comprise the whole committee, that was looking for a president, they were a major factor in that by just the coincidence of the way the board had been set up. I understand that, two, and quite possibly three of tha--this is approximate, I think, seven member committee and all this is subject to be corrected by research, that was doing the search. But they were unified in that concept, and ultimately, their view prevailed and Dr. Eddleman was appointed as president.Glen Taul
22:00Okay. So, the presidential search was basically focused, I mean, the way the
political makeup was, when they were searching for a new president, they were looking for somebody to implement their--Orlin Corey
23:00Yeah.
Glen Taul
24:00Designs--
Orlin Corey
25:00Well, not the committee as a whole, but a strong component of the committee.
Definitely--and they appointed a man who was one with them in that view.Glen Taul
26:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
27:00So anyway, now of course, he was chosen to become president of Georgetown
College. And he quite publicly said so and properly sought to be so.Glen Taul
28:00Did he also make someb--but he didn't make it known that on his agenda was to
move the--.Orlin Corey
29:00No, no, no--
Glen Taul
30:00--college to Louisville.
Orlin Corey
31:00No, no, no, there was no stated agenda, except to make Georgetown College, all
the proper things he would say.Glen Taul
32:00Sure.
Orlin Corey
33:00That--the best in the state and the best, so on and so on. And he was a tireless
person, great energy, who worked night and day, drove himself hard. Drove his cars very fast, often got tickets. [laughter]. And so on and so on. The Green Hornet, they called the green Pontiacs. [laughter] And his cars were given to him by a Baptist trustee who had ownership. And so he pretty well--Glen Taul
34:00Mr. Cook.
Orlin Corey
35:00Well, it was one of the Cooks in--in--
Glen Taul
36:00Louisville.
Orlin Corey
37:00Louisville.
Glen Taul
38:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
39:00Pontiacs they were.
Glen Taul
40:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
41:00And [chuckles] there's another Cook brother in Lexington, I believe it is. Sold Chevrolets.
Glen Taul
42:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
43:00Anyway, this is the Louisville side. And there was some associate--there's close
association, there was another friend of Dr. [H. Leo] Eddleman's and this is--and then in the Highbaughs, to name a couple of other families, were very much under--under his influence. And he was well acquainted with them and they thought highly of him. But in any case, he was here for a little over four years, as you know, and was introduced on the campus--in the end of May, or at the time of graduation in 1954 that spring. And was inaugurated that autumn, but began serving from that time forward. But it became, now--now let me leave the general summary to say I was a faculty member and there were others. Now several of us were particularly involved with activities which carried--which extended our work on the campus into the state. Among these being people who did choirs and ensembles, that sang, who had a reputation, and part of the training experience was to move out and to be not only in Kentucky, but beyond.Glen Taul
44:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
45:00A wonderful and appropriate activity. And in my case, the Speech and Drama
Department had evolved--was evolving and had evolved by then, a touring with a disarmament program. This is all distinct from the on campus program. And that would be true with the music people too, they have their on campus dimensions to this too. And these ensembles, plus the debate, people, there were several of these groups, had wide exposure, wide contacts and indirectly served as great ambassadors for the state--for the college.Glen Taul
46:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
47:00While they were also performing their own training, and so on, and therefore
they had reputation. Audiences and friends are in the Greek sense, they had political factor there, of loyalty to them. Therefore, in moving about the state, and appearing at, say, a church for a weekend, doing a performance, be it choir, whatever, several of us, you see, would get feedback from laypeople there who would say, "well, you know, your president was here last month, and he spoke about the necessity of moving Georgetown College to Louisville, or the necessity of moving of--combining all Baptist education into a great university. "That, and he would speak of it being named Georgetown.Glen Taul
48:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
49:00Because he was staying loyal to that dimension, there's no doubt of that. But we
also learned that the language was handled, which is good politics, another sense of politics in different ways in different places. So that if you're in another area, we would learn, one of the choir people told me. That's where they were-- a place where there was a small Baptist institution, they were told that it would be a way to transform that one into a very large center for Baptist education, and so forth. So eventually, one began to get dots on the chart.Glen Taul
50:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
51:00Sometimes we would connect the dots, according to this--with that group.
Glen Taul
52:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
53:00And particularly when other things were transpiring at different levels, a
consensus began to appear. And then, at the end of the first year, he was here that there was another game afoot. And then, in interviews with faculty, and he never talked, faculty salaries, ranks and so forth, were closely held card, if you'll pardon the metaphor.Glen Taul
54:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
55:00To his vest.
Glen Taul
56:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
57:00And he personally administered these and played these in one on interviews.
[clears throat] And it gradually became known that certain people had been talked to about the willingness to, to go to Georgetown in Louisville. And if they were open-minded about this, or were enthusiastic, they were given larger--.Glen Taul
58:00Salaries.
Orlin Corey
59:00--Increases. Not that they were ever very large, but the--at the time, but they
got more than others.Glen Taul
60:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
61:00You know how that would work in the faculty circles, in the coffee club.
Glen Taul
62:00Sure.
Orlin Corey
63:00And so forth. So, by such devious, unreliable, unscientific and quite possibly
fairly accurate [laughter] insights, that you cannot quantify, people became aware of other things being afoot. Now, there came a time, this went on a while. Then there came a time when the state committee I'm shifting focus.Glen Taul
64:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
65:00The state--the Kentucky, whatever they call that overall committee, not the
board of Georgetown, but the overall committee--Glen Taul
66:00It was a specially appointed commission of the Kentucky Baptist Convention to
study the educational system--.Orlin Corey
67:00Well came out of that there, okay, that group, whatever they called you've got,
okay. It was that group.Glen Taul
68:00Okay
Orlin Corey
69:00And I--this was like 25 or 40 people, I think. It was a pretty good size group.
They were persuaded to employ a major research firm, from Chicago, Booz Allen Hamilton, as a matter of fact, to make a study of the system of--for Baptists in the state, and they did so on--and under that authorization, Dr. Eddleman, as president of the senior college. My understanding is pretty well directed that search. He informed them and discussed the parameters and they reported to him. This went on a year. Their report, when he came, you understand, the world at large didn't know this, certainly the Faculty Club didn't know this. But one by one--that these bits came out. They evolved a massive report that I understand is about two inches thick.Glen Taul
70:00Oh.
Orlin Corey
71:00I've not seen it. Very few people ever saw it. And--
Glen Taul
72:00I wonder if it's still around.
Orlin Corey
73:00And--well, it would be possibly in the archives and--in Middletown.
Glen Taul
74:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
75:00Possibly. If it's anyplace, it's there. And this was made for that committee
that you referred to. And in essence, it recommended, we now know that the committee recommend to the association that certain institutions be closed, that others be better built up as regional feeder institutions to serve a new--a new state or Baptist, Kentucky Baptist university in Louisville. And that the logical one to take the lead on that would be Georgetown, in order to preserve the various accreditation. So, it'd be in Georgetown's name, and by that time, they had formed a Georgetown extension in Louisville.Glen Taul
76:00Yeah, I read that in the newspaper.
Orlin Corey
77:00--On the Highbaugh land, that had been, you notice, now certain connections are
here. And that this would grow to a time when it would then become whatever it would become. Possibly Georgetown University or Kentucky, Baptist, but they could not change the name until such time and certain whatever. It was the name and accreditation, we're holding, Georgetown, close to this.Glen Taul
78:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
79:00So that it could be sad. This is an lawyer's sense of language--.
Glen Taul
80:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
81:00--That Georgetown college was being built up, while at the same time, the other
was being developed in their name. Now, I'm telling you, al--I'm interpreting already on top of what--Glen Taul
82:00That's fine.
Orlin Corey
83:00But that went inside that--that report, in essence, was confined to that group.
And they received the report, I understand, accepted it, and then were quite--and then were going to recommend it to the general association, for adoption. And I think they got the report in like the August before the meeting in November.Glen Taul
84:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
85:00And that there was no intention to publicize this at large, other than just
within the general agenda. Note that the committee was recommending the adoption of such and such a report. Now, I do understand from more recent researches, which I did not know then, that the report was being prepared to be sent to ministers, Baptist pastors of--the--I presume the pastor rather than say music minister. That particular minister, probably--. The head of the church. --As head of the local church.Glen Taul
86:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
87:00These were perhaps sent along if so, it must have been in like early October or
so, a scant month before. Because that was in process when sometime in--the report was given in late August. So this is probably October, to quiet (??) all this. Sometime in September or a spade, a reporter at the Louisville Courier Journal concerned with affairs of churches and religion, obtained a copy of this. And that I don't know how that came about. But he was well connected. And it could be that one of the people in the Baptist world who wanted this to happen there, wanted it to be given to them. Who knows. But anyway, I can't imagine any of those people sort of leaving it to--Glen Taul
88:00No!
Orlin Corey
89:00But it became a front page story. Not only once, but several times. It was
thoroughly analyzed and hit the paper--it hit the state, which in turn then led to the fueling of major newspaper releases in Campbellsville, Cumberland wherever there was a Baptist School and of course Lexington and Georgetown, etc. Which was really before the pastors had seen it. Not the best of timing for certain plans.Glen Taul
90:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
91:00Apparently, the concept was this would simply be washed through and adopted,
peaceably without disturbance. Now I'll back off and say I also understand, someone in that time. I was hearing this because of the touring programs and choirs and drama, but especially choirs, they had several groups out.Glen Taul
92:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
93:00But also the drama side. That certain local institution presidents, some of
these institutions had been courted, and encouraged to be involved in the shape of the future and have a part in this and that the positions and the institutional name would be preserved, which legally was essential in terms of endowments. to be sure.Glen Taul
94:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
95:00But presumably, the legalities of each would very likely had to have been
litigated, I'm pretty certain.Glen Taul
96:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
97:00But, can these funds be transferred, whatever, whatever, whatever, from a place?
Or were they given to a name, or to the name in the place? All that would have to be sorted. Obviously, there's complication there. But they weren't involved and were more or less amenable to the idea that there would be more funding and other institutions would prosper. The details were not, it was the kind of a pie in the sky approach. And there was a general warm feeling on--and the Booz Allen Hamilton matter, which was interviewed with each of them, was seen as a part of this and fed a larger hole for greater resources and a brighter future, which was dashed. When the Courier Journal picture--papers appeared. And they got tuned into a larger picture, which related to other institutions than their own. Now, that's probably about half accurate. That's about what I know today, in 2002. After that, it's--it's a local game. And as a history buff, you will very likely know, the observation, I'm going to make of the famous Speaker of the House in Washington, that all politics is local--Glen Taul
98:00Right.
Orlin Corey
99:00Tip O'Neil's (??). And all politics is local. And I can now say that in
Georgetown, where there's a great deal of information available, from that time, from the middle of September on. Front page, even to the point of,. virtually it seemed to me like special edition, or at least that kind of scope of headline, I got a two inch headline.Glen Taul
100:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
101:00Which we've never seen--normally, you'll have each headlines for the major
stories. And you had a cooperation in the town, with the student association. Funds given from the one side, by people in Georgetown, to help pay for postage and printing. And some 600 or 700 students became active volunteers in an ad hoc extension of the organization, which worked out for Anderson Hall.Glen Taul
102:00Oh--
Orlin Corey
103:00And a biology professo, Last name was Shackley (??). Very capable, man. A very,
very capable ma, who was also resident, what would you say Dean, Father, pater--local, local father to the--to the dorm.Glen Taul
104:00Okay. Okay.
Orlin Corey
105:00But he took under his leadership and he had lots of smarts and experience in
organizing and they organized and they wrote and they mimeographed and they posted and they did mailing lists. They reached thousands of people associated with Georgetown, their families, the Alumni Association weighed in. The historical association weighed in. the women's association weighed in, the chamber of commerce and Kiwanis. And all of these groups come were coming into this with funds coming to help pay for this. That was just from here. You can be certain this went on in Campbellsville, it went on--. It was an enormous grassroots stir. So much so, that the state structure was not prepared to handle for the people who are going to show up at Elizabethtown in November. So--Glen Taul
106:00So, the showdown is gonna come at the state convention?
Orlin Corey
107:00State convention, which was---
Glen Taul
108:00--In Elizabethtown--.
Orlin Corey
109:00At Severns Valley Baptist Church.
Glen Taul
110:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
111:00In Elizabethtown, that November. But so, the churches had to limit their
delegates or churches were limited to a certain number--.Glen Taul
112:00Well, every church is given a maximum delegates-.
Orlin Corey
113:00Well--.
Glen Taul
114:00--Depending on the membership.
Orlin Corey
115:00For the first time this became very important--.
Glen Taul
116:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
117:00Because sometimes they don't have --have a little trouble getting to their
maximum, to attend the conference for several days for obvious reasons. It'd be through the week and lay people and--Glen Taul
118:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
119:00And so--but this time, everyone was packed out and they had to turn people who
wanted to be delegates, so then people just went along as observers. And the--the general estimate of attendance based on reading, the Courier Journal, the Western Recorder and other reports is that, where they might draw 800 or 900 people, they drew nearly 2,800 there. I mean, it overflowed on numbers of rooms to only hear over, see the speakers and so on and so forth. That was a measure of excitement that day.Glen Taul
120:00Do you think Campbellsville and Cumberland took advantage of this situation to
push their agenda to become senior colleges?Orlin Corey
121:00There was an interesting--the of answers, yes. But they were beyond the junior
college even then. Because the left hand sometimes does not know what the right foot is doing.Glen Taul
122:00Right.
Orlin Corey
123:00And in the previous year, they--both of those began--moved to be four-year
college by approval of the state.Glen Taul
124:00I see.
Orlin Corey
125:00What you've been, even the year before it was authorized. So then the next year,
they were having a junior class here. And when this came--at this time, the senior class was just started.Glen Taul
126:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
127:00Authorized at--but this concept. So, they had great reason to resist being cutback.
Glen Taul
128:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
129:00It added is always popular, taking away something else.
Glen Taul
130:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
131:00Well, anyway, there's blood then. [laughter] And I am certain that what happened
here, happened in the same places. A massive organization, and telephone wires disintegrated in heat. [laughter] Who knows who knows, whatever. But they were there and were very effective. Now, I understand that the report suggested that both of those be preserved as institutions. But, the report was not up to date with that reality. It was looking on them still as junior colleges. And by implication, in the long run, Georgetown would have remained--would have become a feeder place---Cumberland. And then there's talk in that of one in western Kentucky because of the logic of the map. And that concept would tell you that it's like, in miniature, the State System of California, whatever--.Glen Taul
132:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
133:00--In higher education.
Glen Taul
134:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
135:00So all of that was projected. Well, this was dealt with. Of course, this was
about but a plan. Those who were trying to preserve the concept I was referring to earlier, that there was obviously some logic to this and some merit. But they were trying to keep some of it alive, and lets the whole house be burned down in the reaction, the house was burned down. That's really what happened. But what really, I think really went wrong. For that larger vision to be looked at dispassionately and by others, or myself, too. Is the methods used. The--the secrecy, the years of speaking one thing here and another there. The manipulation, which is contrary to the concept of Baptist practice or American practice.Glen Taul
136:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
137:00Or democratic practice in general. The methods undid the goal. And--.
Glen Taul
138:00Once the truth was revealed.
Orlin Corey
139:00--And the truth and--what was coming out is that it was apparently being hailed
as a close secret to be slipped through. And the--then very likely, it would have slowly evolved, hadn't been adopted, and would have been modified on the way from here to the bank. Time and again, I imagine, that, okay, one can imagine all kinds of possibilities that would be difficult here. But meanwhile, they had already started at the other end, to receive they had land and there were other plans for expansion, and so forth. And now the outcome of that land the future there, we know, that did not turn out well, either.Glen Taul
140:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
141:00Ultimately, but the hope there was that there would have been, and fundamentally
the Georgetown Extension, which operated for a couple of years before it moved to become a different institution. Faculty from here traveled there. And they--that--that was going to transit--it meant to be the beginning. It was bridge building, is what it was, but the bridge didn't go anyplace eventually.Glen Taul
142:00What was the--when the report came out, the Courier Journal report came out,
what was the reaction of the faculty? We already know about Shanklin's (??)Orlin Corey
143:00It was yes, yes. Shackling.
Glen Taul
144:00Shackling.
Orlin Corey
145:00Yeah. Well, it was--it was the usual division into three schools.
Glen Taul
146:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
147:00Those who were outraged for whatever reason, because of the methods, because
they'd loved it here. Because of local associations, so many of the faculty here, have deep community roots from one or more generation. So, you had all of that working. Then you had those who were sort of in between and didn't quite know what to make of it.Glen Taul
148:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
149:00And you had some who were advocates. But the advocate group was clearly much
smaller than the others. And as this was either distorted in the heat of the moment, by passionate or misunderstandings, but fundamentally, people really knew much more about it than the leadership thought they did. [chuckles] Even though they knew some of it--Glen Taul
150:00Because the bits and pieces started filtering in through the--
Orlin Corey
151:00--Yes, they have their own life.
Glen Taul
152:00Yeah
Orlin Corey
153:00Again, there's several years of things grow--. So some were not at all
surprised. But but, aha, that's how this, oh, and so and so.There was, as I remember, one fact--of all the faculty meetings I went to in eight years at Georgetown, and seven years at another institution, later Centenary College of Louisiana, a very fine little liberal arts college. Slightly larger than Georgetown, but in the same tradition, Methodist school. The only faculty member meeting I remember of all of them was this one at Georgetown, which was the faculty meeting, that was just shortly before the meeting in Elizabethtown. And people there who had been on the fence, spoke and spoke. Clearly, they had allies, intelligence had been applied to this because the whole thing had been printed in the Courier Journal.Glen Taul
154:00Pause in tape. I need to get this thing, okay.
Orlin Corey
155:00Anyway, by the time and this faculty meeting in that November, there had been
five or six weeks, exposure just to the media. Have a chance to reflect and to look. And there were people--Dr. Carl Fields, of the history department, for example, who was a man who was very careful about his speech. And he wanted things to work, very positive man. Dr. Fields, rose and made an absolutely objective, quiet analysis of point by point and then clearly delineating those points that will be fantasy. And those that had some basis. And in just recent conversation with someone who was at the same meeting with I, refreshed memories, we both remembered this very clearly. And the--.Glen Taul
156:00Was that Dr. Hambrick?
Orlin Corey
157:00Yes. [laughter] You said it. And, and others too. And a lady the other day at
lunch, and was recalling some aspects of this.Glen Taul
158:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
159:00And the--Dr. Eddleman always handled himself very well with those meetings. But
in this case, he--under the pressure from one gentleman, who kept wanting to say that the language does not say this, the language says, ultimately was rather abrupt and said, "that's all right, old man. That's enough, old man. That's enough, old man. "Glen Taul
160:00Yeah. Dr. Eddleman said that to--.
Orlin Corey
161:00Dr. Jones.
Glen Taul
162:00Dr. Jones.
Orlin Corey
163:00Dr. W.E. Jones.
Glen Taul
164:00Dr. W.E. Jones.
Orlin Corey
165:00That's right. Now, and another lady, you know, amd he said, "don't trust me?" To
the faculty, because he could see there was anything but trust there. And one lady in the faculty said, "but why don't you trust us." And, you know, trust is with children, as with animals, is a matter of intuition. And children and animals are unerring in this [chuckles] and adults are too. Eventually, once we take off all the intellectual layers and rationalizations, we too have that same ability, if we will, but know when it's there, and not discounted it. That was the reality. By then, there was--those who were for, as I re--, there was a faculty vote then. And it was overwhelmingly, and it was a public vote, too. Not a secret vote, which again, one could have arguments both ways about that.Glen Taul
166:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
167:00But, I should imagine private vote, now I think more would have been opposed
than it would have, but people have to stand.Glen Taul
168:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
169:00And they stood. And my recollection is it was two thirds to three quarters
opposed. And there were a few who had the nerve to stand, since the pressure was then on them, very few, and a few others who've even then sat out. But that's the way that particular group. Meanwhile, but then the alumni association had weighed in a couple of weeks before, and issued a statement. And the Georgetown Women's Association had and all of these groups and the student body, by the way, The Georgetonian, which was edited then by a very abled student, Carol Hubbard, whose father was a good friend of the president and was an advocate in Louisville though, as a the minister there. The Georgetonian chose not to not cover the issue at all, for six weeks, which was a very political thing to do. [chuckles]. It was the only real story on campus for years. I mean, real story in the sense of world interest.Glen Taul
170:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
171:00And they totally ignored it, until it was over. Then it was in the Kentucky
Baptist reject, and then duck down into the leaves. It was very interesting to see. [laughter]Glen Taul
172:00Isn't that something.
Orlin Corey
173:00But anyway, it was--.
Glen Taul
174:00And this took place in '58.?
Orlin Corey
175:00This was 1958.
Glen Taul
176:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
177:00This was the fall of '58 into the November time.
Glen Taul
178:00Now, I can't remember the date. Did the board of trustees meet before the--.
Orlin Corey
179:00They had also met before this.
Glen Taul
180:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
181:00And most of them had known nothing of this. This is what I mean about the
methods used. Undid many people who would have been neutral or more objective. But there was a general perception that they had that--that the matters underhand and indirect. And specifically, that was the understanding here. And a few of the people on the state committee, one in Lexington, I think, valiantly made an effort to--defend the public statement. But you could tell he was wavering.Glen Taul
182:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
183:00And when it got to the convention, which I attended as an observer, they didn't
need me as a delegate. They had lots of delegates. [laughter] They had people beating on the door to be delegates. [laughter] But anyway, as I recall, and that was a standing vote. And they counted, as they should have, in that kind of vote. And as I recall, I don't know how many people were authorized to vote, but it was probably 900, 800 or something.Glen Taul
184:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
185:00Were real delegates.
Glen Taul
186:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
187:00Who had to wear certain insignia--.
Glen Taul
188:00Credentials.
Orlin Corey
189:00Otherwise, the visitors would just like, a dignitary. And anyway, some were
dignitaries and others just stood into dignity. [laughter] You know, the Winston Churchill remark, he never knew any man who stood with dignity went anywhere. [laughter] Oh my. Anyway, as I recall, there were only 30 or 35 votes for--adopting that report.Glen Taul
190:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
191:00And I later heard that that less, far less than half of the committee to whom it
(??), voted for it.Glen Taul
192:00I see.
Orlin Corey
193:00So lots of people changed votes for all the reasons people change vote.
Glen Taul
194:00Right.
Orlin Corey
195:00Dissuaded [makes uneasy noise] uneasy--.
Glen Taul
196:00Public pressure of standing up with them--
Orlin Corey
197:00--Public pressure of standing, yeah, whatever, whatever. But it was pretty thin.
And now, it's all the difference between concept, which is one thing on paper. And then the perception of how it was undertaken.Glen Taul
198:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
199:00That's fascinating.
Glen Taul
200:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
201:00And particularly so, it seemed to me then and it does in retrospect. At the
college, because there was an elaborate series of almost a triple game going on, it seemed to me, now in retrospect, and with some things I find, at that time. There was the official, then there was the subterranean, working to build the consensus for this move. And then there was the game of obfuscation, to conceal this or to conceal this. I remember--one young person and her fiance, but she was in one of the productions--stage productions we were doing at the time, and they had been home, which I think happened to be Elizabethtown, in this case, doesn't matter. You know, for the weekend to visit family and went to church, and Dr. Eddleman was the guest minister. And he preached about the need to have the greater university, Georgetown and Louisville the (??) center and all. And they came back reporting this and this is what happened in detail for three years. But I remember, they're saying this, and on that very next day, like the Tuesday they came back and reported this on the Monday from the day before. On the Tuesday the president issued a denial of saying such a thing from another quarter in the state, when challenges, all for Georgetown. It's that kind of.Glen Taul
202:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
203:00That's, that's what fed this here plus the--and then related to this, it's hard
to figure just where it figured into it. But related to this man who was so dedicated and so certain of himself and his mission, was a constant sort of knawing at the campus life. The--the activities, the having Catholic music instead of hymns for the choir and such things as that.Glen Taul
204:00Now, what do you mean by that?
Orlin Corey
205:00Well, it was Bach. He was a Catholic.
Glen Taul
206:00Eddleman?
Orlin Corey
207:00Yes. But, I mean from the presidential side.
Glen Taul
208:00Oh--
Orlin Corey
209:00--This sort of smiling at the event, but then later making or preaching against.
Glen Taul
210:00okay, okay.
Orlin Corey
211:00I mean, it was like people are going to read this.
Glen Taul
212:00Yeah. In other words, he was talking out both sides of his mouth?
Orlin Corey
213:00Oh, or three times.
Glen Taul
214:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
215:00A very hidden--maybe amount here and there, I don't know. But it was very a
interesting. So there wasn't--this is what I meant earlier, when I said, in many cases, the students were miles ahead of what the administration and leadership thought they were in this regard. And some of the faculty were too. Now, the faculty who lived only here, and only atttended here, and only noticed that they heard, would tend to be you know, indifferent, or undeterred. But so--so this sort of thing that went on and moreover, in time, the, the way certain events were renamed. And the BSU [Baptist student union] was particularly encouraged to duplicate and replicate music groups, to have their own in competition where and likewise to do plays in competition with. And it's very interesting.Glen Taul
216:00Oh.
Orlin Corey
217:00That's way out in the outer edges. But--
Glen Taul
218:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
219:00That is where students, particularly know this, that and this, in turn, did not
print well with people who were aware of the college. As for the future of this, the thrust seemed to be very sectarian, and increasingly so, to sum it up.Glen Taul
220:00Did Eddleman speak at the convention?
Orlin Corey
221:00No, he was not seen.
Glen Taul
222:00He was not seen at all?
Orlin Corey
223:00He was there listening in, a room.
Glen Taul
224:00But he wasn't on the floor, though? Oh, no, he was not visible--. Okay.
Orlin Corey
225:00--During the sessions. But he was there.
Glen Taul
226:00Interesting.
Orlin Corey
227:00There was a meeting with some of the committee or the committee the night before
it was reported in the he was in town, but he was there, but not ever to speak for it.Glen Taul
228:00What about the--?
Orlin Corey
229:00--Two people spoke for it, and there must have been, ultimately, they had to
rule it out. Five or six against, in Elizabethtown, you know.Glen Taul
230:00The two people who spoke for it, were ymembers of the Georgetown trustees?
Orlin Corey
231:00No, I don't think so.
Glen Taul
232:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
233:00I don't think so.
Glen Taul
234:00So, the trustees--
Orlin Corey
235:00Because by then, the trustee--the trustees were overwhelmingly opposed to this.
Now, Senator John Sherman Cooper was a trustee.Glen Taul
236:00Right. He knew nothing about it when he arrived. And Mr. Porter, first name, is
it Ira? Ira.Orlin Corey
237:00Ira Porter, right and I rememberd in whose building, with honor we now sit.
Glen Taul
238:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
239:00A banker, very responsible. Long-term association, he knew there was interested
in the label (??) to do something and he knew that Georgetown. You know, they did, they knew the official things, that Georgetown had an extension there.Glen Taul
240:00Right.
Orlin Corey
241:00How could you resist that? Surely that was fine.
Glen Taul
242:00Right.
Orlin Corey
243:00And also took night classes in other places around central Kentucky too. Anyway,
but he had no concept of this, until it hit in the Courier Journal.Glen Taul
244:00Yeah. What about--after the vote in Elizabethtown, of course that put a black
eye in his administration, Eddleman's administration. What--Orlin Corey
245:00Well, he was--he accepted another position in about 48 hours.
Glen Taul
246:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
247:00He had already covered his tracks.
Glen Taul
248:00Okay. He knew what was--.
Orlin Corey
249:00He went back to seminary.
Glen Taul
250:00So that position was--
Orlin Corey
251:00He was elected--he was elected to that presidency, approximately, was he that
meeting? I don't remember the day of the week that the conference was held in Elizabethtown.Glen Taul
252:00It was probably in November. It wasn't No--it was in that month.
Orlin Corey
253:00Yeah.
Glen Taul
254:00But it was like in a--on a Wednesday or a Thursday or maybe a Tuesday. But that
weekend, well, it was the--one of the Georgetown papers, The News, I think it was, maybe both the times it was The News. But, The News would come out one day different. One of them had, "Kentucky Baptists reject," however they did it. The other headline, "Dr. Eddleman offered position." Oh.Orlin Corey
255:00So that was known. Within--that known in a day, in Elizabeth, that he was--he
had another position offered. And by the end of that week, this is where the days of the week may have some relevance. He was elected by the board and the (??) Stayed here through December, a month.Glen Taul
256:00Okay.
Orlin Corey
257:00Started there January 1, in '59.
Glen Taul
258:00Very good.
Orlin Corey
259:00And just a final note, it is also clear that (??) had such certitude about what
he did, and commitment. Would let us say, right, he did lots of personal notes, he was very good with this about people. It was one of his ways of working with people. He would write personal notes constantly to board members. [Phone rings]Glen Taul
260:00Excuse me. I need to start that again.
Orlin Corey
261:00Sure you need to do that.
Glen Taul
262:00Good now, go ahead.
Orlin Corey
263:00Was it running?
Glen Taul
264:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
265:00Well, in in one occasion, and actually several but in one particular occasion,
I'm remembering, the play was given. And the president wrote a note to that lady who was on board, who was a former student of Ms. Calhoun's. And I told her what a lovely play it was and how pleased they were of coruse. This lady knew another, naturally, another board members, since she was on the board. A lady friend of hers, in another part of the state. And happened to be calling on her at about the same time. And asking her if she'd seen the play that had such a lovely note praising it from Dr. Eddleman. It was well--they said, "you did? Well, in the note he wrote to me was that it looked bad," and he wrote a note absolutely condenming it and blasting it to her. That's when, if there was any doubt, certain board members had began to be--and this lady was very inclined to be. They were both inclined to be for Georgetown.Glen Taul
266:00Right.
Orlin Corey
267:00She was very personally loyal too.
Glen Taul
268:00Dr. Eddleman.
Orlin Corey
269:00But, eventually, eventually it was one of those in that. I don't know what the
vote was in the board, but I understand it was overwhelming rejection of it, which of course was a real rejection of him.Glen Taul
270:00Of the proposal to move Georgetown?
Orlin Corey
271:00Yeah. Yeah.
Glen Taul
272:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
273:00Yeah. They immediate--strong statement against that and keeping Georgetown where
it is.Glen Taul
274:00Yeah, I've I've noticed the--I don't remember the number, but I've noticed the
vote in the trustees minutes. We can go right here.Orlin Corey
275:00Okay. Well, that would suggest, if not the detail, it would suggest the outcome.
Glen Taul
276:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
277:00And you would know more about that than I.
Glen Taul
278:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
279:00But, I understand it was overwhelmingly Nos. What--I didn't know what--did
anybody vote for it or do you?Glen Taul
280:00I can't remember right now, I don't think there was hardly any personally?
Orlin Corey
281:00It could hardly--it might have been, but not much.
Glen Taul
282:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
283:00Or it wouldn't have been.
Glen Taul
284:00No, Dr. Hambrick was telling me that when you look into this, you need to pay
attention to a--groupings of where they from. Where the trustees were from.Orlin Corey
285:00That's right.
Glen Taul
286:00About that time.
Orlin Corey
287:00That's right. It was--it was a fragmenting kind of time. But it was--it was
the--it was the methods relationship.Glen Taul
288:00Right.
Orlin Corey
289:00And the way this fed into student life, and the faculty, which was very
interesting. So there was a kind of screening and, I wouldn't go so far as to say it was an inquisition approach, but it had the scent of inquisition about it.Glen Taul
290:00It sounded like it was almost --machiavellian.--
Orlin Corey
291:00That's well said.
Glen Taul
292:00And--it's--.
Orlin Corey
293:00It's that tradition--.
Glen Taul
294:00--Strategy anyway.
Orlin Corey
295:00It is not unknown in the world, it's the Ayatollah (?) complex, we might call it
today. Which is always in the name of God, and high ends. And always well intended. There's no doubt of that. No doubt of that. But it's quite often so tunnel vision. And it's laser and--lasers can burn.Glen Taul
296:00Really it's--and in that way--you're really, from a spiritual standpoint, you're
really excluding God from the whole process.Orlin Corey
297:00Well, you use a great assumption that you--.
Glen Taul
298:00--That you know better.
Orlin Corey
299:00--You are or--he was very fond in many prayers--other people spoke in the chapel
to refute what they had said in his public prayers would often use the phrase, as said earlier this morning.Glen Taul
300:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
301:00We know that you know, so forth and so forth. No, it is--a well-known.
Glen Taul
302:00Yeah.
Orlin Corey
303:00It was still a pleasant place. I still--I'm not embittered about it.
Glen Taul
304:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
305:00About the place. I'm still fascinated by how this could come about. But it undid
itself, even if, possibly it should not have, had been handled in a wiser way, less rushed and less secretiv. More time spent in the persuasion, Chauncey Dailey (??), the editor of The Western Recorder which to me is a good way to conclude my remarks about this.Glen Taul
306:00Yes.
Orlin Corey
307:00Had an observation, which is he--learned early on he said that it takes a year
to say howdy to Kentucky Baptists. [laughter] You can hardly close and or move seven or eight deeply-rooted educational institutions in six weeks. [laughter]Glen Taul
308:00Very true.
Orlin Corey
309:00Well, anyway, I don't know how all of that is---most of that is opinion.
Glen Taul
310:00Yeah but it's--.
311:00