Interview with Sally Simonton

Partial Transcript: And to start us off, how about you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Segment Synopsis: Simonton was born and raised in Harlan, Kentucky and graduated from the University of Kentucky in 1974. Simonton worked in the publishing industry after college, starting out at the thoroughbred publication "BloodHorse Magazine". Simonton also worked for "USA Today" in Washington, D.C. for nine years before moving back to Kentucky in 1994 and got a job a radio station in Lexington called WVLK. Up until 2016, Simonton was working for the state government as an unemployment investigator. Simonton currently works part-time at the Kentucky Career Center to handle the massive increase in unemployment claims resulting from the COVID-19 Pandemic. Simonton says that the Kentucky Career Center (which is the state government office that processes Kentucky unemployment claims) went from receiving an average of about 2,000 claims to 90,000 in one week during March 2020. Simonton felt very safe in Harlan when she was growing up and says that everyone looked out for each other. Simonton says her childhood home was built by her grandfather and was at the top of a mountain slope.

Keywords: Magazines; Small towns; Thoroughbreds; WVLK (Radio Station); Unemployment claims; Kentucky Career Center

Subjects: Early life; Careers; Publications; Newspapers; University of Kentucky; Harlan (Ky.); Washington (D.C.); USA Today (Firm); State governments; Frankfort (Ky.); Lexington (Ky.); Radio; Radio stations; Unemployment; COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-2023; Childhood; Safety; Protection; Grandfather; Neighborhoods; Unemployment insurance

Partial Transcript: I was playing sports as soon as I kn--could throw a ball.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton would play tackle football and basketball with the boys in her neighborhood. Simonton lived in a close-knit neighborhood where the parents and children would socialize together frequently. Simonton played golf throughout her childhood and participated in statewide tournaments in high school. Simonton's mother was friends with several founding members of the LPGA and had her daughter involved in the sport at an early age. Through these connections, Simonton's mother was able to secure a place for her daughter at a newly-formed LPGA school. Simonton immediately thought about the financial hardship it would place on her family if she went to the school. Simonton came from a middle class family, her mother worked at a coal tipple and her father was a coal miner and later became a probation officer. Simonton says her father would occasionally receive threats of violence due to the nature of his work. Once Simonton graduated from high school, she had to make a choice between attending the LPGA school or the University of Kentucky. Simonton had always wanted to go to UK since it was her father's alma mater. Simonton would also be the second UK graduate in the family because her older sister did not finish her degree at UK and her brother attended college elsewhere. Ultimately, Simonton chose to attend UK because it would not cost as much as the LPGA school. Many decades later, Simonton found out that around fifty of her parents' friends volunteered to pay a portion of her tuition for the LPGA school. Simonton was angry at her mother for not telling her about the offer from her parents' friends and wonders how different her life might have been if she went to the LPGA school. Simonton later realized that going to the LPGA school was a dream fulfilled for her mother, not something that Simonton really wanted for herself. Simonton adds that her boyfriend at the time was attending UK, which also influenced her decision. In retrospect, Simonton thinks that her family was not poor but had the impression they were because her parents would frequently say they did not have the money to buy toys when Simonton asked for something.

Keywords: Community; Babe Didrikson Zaharias; Ladies Professional Golf Association; LPGA; Louise Suggs; LPGA Tours; Boyfriend

Subjects: Sports; Childhood; Harlan (Ky.); Neighborhoods; Boys; Basketball; Football; Social; Zaharias, Babe Didrikson, 1911-1956; Golf; Mother; High school; Suggs, Louise; Money; Working class; Father; Coal miners; State governments; Probation officers; Sheriffs; Police; Threats; University of Kentucky; Dating; Toys

Partial Transcript: . . . Did you all ever go to church, and if so--.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says that her father was more religious than her mother. Simonton's father would take Simonton and her brother and sister to the Presbyterian church without her mother. Simonton was involved in the church choir and plays during Easter and Christmas. Overall, Simonton says she enjoyed school and had a lot of friends. Simonton did not like math and struggled with algebra during high school. In her junior year, Simonton had enough course credits to have additional PE time and began training with the boys' basketball team. Simonton wanted to play basketball when she went to UK despite not having a background in the sport. Simonton's PE teacher, who also happened to be the basketball coach, helped her to develop the fundamentals for basketball. The next year, Simonton tried out for the boys' basketball team (since there was no girls team at her high school at the time). Simonton's parents would not let her play on the boys' basketball team but allowed her to continue practicing with the team.

Keywords: Church plays; PE; Tennis shoes; Basketball drills

Subjects: Childhood; Early life; Harlan (Ky.); Church; Religion; Christianity; Choirs (Music); Christmas; Easter; Presbyterian Church; Father; Mother; Brothers; Sisters; Education; Friendship; Mathematics; High school; Algebra; Social; Sports; Physical education and training; Basketball; Boys; Sneakers; Coaches

Partial Transcript: . . . Cause it sounds like you have--you had a lot of different people in your life who were very supportive of this--.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton was encouraged by two of her high school coaches to play other sports besides golf. Simonton says she only had boys in her neighborhood to play with and watched basketball and football with them. Simonton adds that the first two songs that she memorized the lyrics to were the UK fight song and the Woman's College of the University of North Carolina ( known as UNC Greensboro today) fight song, the alma maters of her father and mother, respectively.

Keywords: Woman's College of the University of North Carolina

Subjects: Sports; High school; Coaches (Athletics); Basketball; Harlan (Ky.); Boys; Girls; Early life; Adolescence; Teenagers; Fight songs; University of Kentucky; Sisters; Golf; Football

Partial Transcript: I mean, I had girls--I was friends with a lot of girls too.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton had some friends that were girls, but preferred being with boys. Simonton recalls her friends asking her to talk to a boy they liked. Simonton felt that she was not in the right body when she hit puberty and thought she was "not good" at stereotypically female activities such as putting on makeup or playing with dolls. Simonton wore hand-me-downs from her older brother, but her school did not allow girls to wear pants. Simonton was threatened with being suspended if she did not stop wearing pants to school. Simonton feels more comfortable in pants, but usually wore a skirt and heels to work as an adult. Simonton always felt that she was different from her peers but did not have the words to describe it. Simonton had only heard terms like "queer" used as an insult and at first did not want to acknowledge her attraction towards women. Simonton remembers telling herself she just thought that a movie actress was pretty rather than feeling an attraction towards her. Simonton felt different from other girls when she would go with her friends to see a movie and once it was over, all the other girls would discuss how attractive a male actor was when Simonton was focused on the actresses. Simonton would conceal her true feelings and identity when she was a teenager to protect herself from being treated like an outcast. Simonton did not always encounter positive reactions to her participation in activities supposedly for boys. One of Simonton's neighbors confronted her father when she took the place of her son when he was absent and started the game and outperformed him. Simonton's father had to stop her from playing with the boys after this incident and Simonton was upset about not being able to participate anymore.

Keywords: Hand-me-downs; Different; Attraction

Subjects: Childhood; Early life; Harlan (Ky.); Friendship; Boys; Girls; Gender; Puberty; Pants; Dresses; High school; Pants; Clothing; Brothers; Dress codes; Work; Skirts; Dating; Adolescence; Teenagers; Outcasts; Baseball; Father; Brothers; Neighbors; Little League baseball

Partial Transcript: --Um--what was your awareness of anything like lesbian, gay, LGBT growing up--

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says there was very little awareness of the LGBTQ community when she was growing up. Simonton remembers joining in with her classmates to bully a boy who had been labeled as gay. Simonton regrets engaging in this behavior and did it in order to protect herself from being bullied. Simonton apologized to him many years later. Simonton does not remember the word "lesbian" being used during her childhood. Simonton heard the word "lesbian" being used for the first time when she was in the seventh or eighth grade. A lesbian couple in the Harlan County community of Loyall had their house intentionally burned down. Simonton could not believe that someone would burn another person's house down for being a lesbian. Simonton realized that women could be gay when this incident came to light. Simonton felt isolated and that no one else had the same thoughts or feelings as her. Many years later, Simonton connected with friends from her hometown on social media and several of them were lesbian. Simonton finds comfort in the fact that she was not alone in feeling this way during her teenage years.

Keywords: Feelings; Attraction

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Harlan (Ky.); Childhood; Early life; Protection; Bullying; Loyall (Ky.); Fire; Arson; Mother; Boys; Girls; Social media; Facebook (Firm); Adolescence; Teenagers

Partial Transcript: And when was the first girlfriend, you mentioned the first girlfriend earlier.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton's first relationship with a woman was during college. Simonton's girlfriend was from California and commented on Simonton's accent the first time they met. Simonton felt very happy in her relationship but did not speak about it publicly due to fear over the consequences she might face for being in a lesbian relationship. Simonton explains that people who were found to be in a lesbian relationship during the 1970s faced having their children taken away or being fired from their jobs. Simonton's relationship with her first girlfriend lasted throughout college and ended when her partner moved back to California. In high school and in her early college days, Simonton had a boyfriend. Simonton did not understand what all the hype was about when she had sex with her boyfriend for the first time. Simonton thought that less than ideal intimacy was another societal expectation that women had to put up with, including having children. Simonton liked children but did not want to be married to a man. Simonton broke up with her boyfriend once she started seeing her girlfriend. By this time, Simonton's boyfriend had graduated from college and moved to Ashland, Kentucky. Simonton remembers going to Ashland to breakup with him and finding him in bed with another woman. Simonton was reassured that she had made the right decision when she discovered her boyfriend's infidelity. Simonton's mother maintained for many years after the fact that Simonton had become a lesbian because her first boyfriend had hurt her so much, which Simonton dismisses with a laugh.

Keywords: Relationships; Boyfriend; Girlfriends; Accent; Attraction; Consequences; Sexuality; Breakups

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Harlan (Ky.); Lexington (Ky.); University of Kentucky; Nineteen seventies; Prejudices; Discrimination; High school; Prom; Sexual orientation; Sex; Marriage; Children; Ashland (Ky.); Mother

Partial Transcript: And so, I guess that means at some point, your mother or maybe even both your parents found out about you know, your sexuality--your sexual identity then, right?

Segment Synopsis: Simonton came out to her mother during the early 1980s. Simonton was watching an episode of the soap opera "Dynasty" with her mother during which one of the main male characters is revealed to be gay by his sister. Simonton's mother asked if she was "like that." Simonton responded by instructing her mother to ask her again and she would tell the truth. Once Simonton told her mother she was gay, her mother's response was to keep it a secret from Simonton's father. About a decade later, Simonton was home from Washington D.C. visiting her father. At the time, Simonton was living with her partner and remembers her father asking her point blank if she was in a relationship with her roommate. Simonton felt that she could not lie to her father and said they were a couple. Simonton's father asked why she did not tell him before and Simonton explained that her mother had instructed her to keep it a secret from her father. Simonton's father said all that mattered to him was that she was happy. Simonton's mother made it clear that her partner was not welcome in their home. Simonton refused to come home during this period, but would call her father occasionally. Simonton's father convinced her to come home and try to reconcile with her mother. Simonton's mother offered her an apology, but Simonton is unsure whether it was sincere because her mother was heavily intoxicated at the time. Simonton first came out to her sister and her initial reaction was to dismiss it as a phase. Simonton was afraid to tell her friends because of the repercussions she could face for being open about her sexual orientation. Simonton only revealed that she was in a relationship to one of her close friends after she broke up with her girlfriend.

Keywords: Dynasty (1981 TV series); Girlfriends; Drunk

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Mother; Father; Harlan (Ky.); Identity; Sexual orientation; Coming out (Sexual orientation); Television soap operas; Washington (D.C.); Teenagers; Young adults; Partners; Happiness; Alcoholics; Sisters; Secrets

Partial Transcript: So, you mentioned your first girlfriend's name was Kathy . . .

Segment Synopsis: When Simonton first enrolled at UK, she lived in a sorority house on campus. Simonton later got an apartment near campus with her partner. Simonton never talked about being in a relationship with a woman unless she was sure that everyone already knew about it.

Keywords: Girlfriends; Relationships

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); University of Kentucky; Apartments; College sorority members; Partners

Partial Transcript: So, wait, how old were you when you started going to The Country then?

Segment Synopsis: Simonton began going to The Country when she was twenty-one, primarily because fake IDs did not exist when she was young. Simonton went to The Country regularly from the late 1970s until 1981 when she moved to Washington D.C. Simonton heard about The Country from a friend, who encouraged her to go in the aftermath of her breakup with her first girlfriend. Simonton instantly felt comfortable and safe at The Country. Simonton ran into several friends when she went to The Country for the first time. Simonton felt comfortable to be herself at The Country without having to worry about judgment from others. Simonton recalls that J.C. Conley, a co-owner of The Country, would allow underage patrons to enter since they were looking for a safe place to be themselves. Simonton explains that Conley did not serve alcohol to underage patrons and made sure they were safe while at The Country. Eventually, there were so many underage patrons trying to get into The Country that Conley decided to have a bouncer at the front door to check IDs. Simonton also remembers watching sports at The Country and frequent special theme nights and parties.

Keywords: The Country; Driver's license; Drunk; Girlfriends; Sexuality; J.C. Conley; Fun

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Alcohol; Dance; Dance floors; Safety; Ownership; Women-owned business enterprises; Identity; Bouncers; Liquor laws; License system; Parties; Themes; Sports; Television

Partial Transcript: . . . Where was The Country located?

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says that The Country was located in a strip mall off of Lane Allen Road in Lexington. Simonton recalls there was plenty of parking and people would frequently go out to the parking lot to smoke. Simonton describes the layout of The Country. Upon entering, there was a door to the left and a glass window and a concrete wall to the right of the main entrance. There was also a room with a dance floor and a separate room where the bar and the pool table were located. Simonton remembers The Country being a noisy and crowded place most of the time.

Keywords: The Country; Parking

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Bars (Drinking establishments); Nightlife; Smoking; Dance floors; Pool (Game); Noise; Crowds

Partial Transcript: . . . There were seldom any men in there.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says there were rarely any men at The Country. Simonton adds that some gay men or drag performers would come occasionally. Simonton felt safe enough at The Country to be herself since most of the patrons were also lesbian women. Simonton explains that it felt liberating to be at The Country because she did not have to hide who she was and could be comfortable to express her identity. Simonton says most of the patrons were in their 20s, 30s and 40s. Simonton remembers The Country being open on Tuesday through Saturday but not on Sundays.

Keywords: The Country

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Men; Women; Identity; Drag performances; Safety

Partial Transcript: What days did you usually go or what nights did you usually go?

Segment Synopsis: Simonton would usually go out during the week, especially since it was one of the only places in Lexington at the time where lesbians could go have a beer together. Simonton remembers a sense of community amongst The Country patrons. For example, patrons warned each other about police roadblocks or DUI checkpoints and suggested alternative routes. Simonton recalls an instance in which the police showed up at The Country. Simonton was afraid that the police would find at least one person there breaking the law and arrest someone. The police ended up playing a game of pool, which eased Simonton's concerns. Simonton thinks the police were not trying to be a threatening presence but wanted to send a message that they were aware of The Country. Simonton says it was rare to take pictures at The Country because it was uncommon for people to have cameras with them. Simonton recalls people turning their heads away when they saw the flash of a camera due to concerns over facing repercussions in their personal or professional lives for being lesbian.

Keywords: The Country

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Bars (Drinking establishments); Nightlife; Police; Warnings; Roadblocks (Police methods); Safety; Protection; Beer; Pool (Game); Parties; Dance floors; Laws and regulations; Identity; Privacy

Partial Transcript: And when it comes to the clientele that was there, were they--were there some people that were into the whole like butch femme . . .

Segment Synopsis: Simonton remembers there were people considered to be "butch" and "femme" at The Country, but everyone socialized together. Simonton never felt uncomfortable about the fashion or aesthetic choices of The Country patrons. Simonton says there were some Black patrons at The Country, but adds that the lesbian softball league was more diverse.

Keywords: The Country

Subjects: Butch and femme (Lesbian culture); Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Bars (Drinking establishments); Nightlife; Race; Blacks; African Americans; Social; Human skin color; Softball

Partial Transcript: --Um--was there ever any regulation of who could come inside. Like, for example, like did anyone ever try and come in inside that was like seen--you know, aggressive or rowdy or instigating in some--.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton does not remember witnessing violent behavior at The Country on a regular basis, but does recall one instance in which two women were thrown out for fighting. Simonton describes when The Country began having a membership system. Simonton says the membership was ten dollars and there was no cover charge for members. Simonton remembers when The Country went under new ownership and changed its name to The Hidden Door. Simonton discusses the origin of the new name. The Country was down a hallway in a somewhat obscure location, prompting people to refer to it as the hidden door since it was difficult to find the entrance.

Keywords: The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Name change; Fights; Cover charge

Subjects: Membership; Membership cards; Bouncers; Nightlife; Gays; Lesbians; Bars (Drinking establishments); Ownership; Women-owned business enterprises

Partial Transcript: And were most people who went there regulars or--.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says that most patrons of The Country were regulars, but there were more newcomers when UK was in session. Simonton went to The Country from 1979 to 1981 and it became a major part of her day-to-day life. Simonton stopped going to The Country because she was moving to Washington D.C. for work. Simonton says she lost touch with some of the people she met at The Country when she moved. Simonton did not realize that The Country had closed until she was told by a friend while visiting Lexington.

Keywords: The Country; Job offer; BloodHorse Magazine

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Lexington (Ky.); Bars (Drinking establishments); University of Kentucky; Washington (D.C.); Work; Careers; USA Today (Firm); Newspapers; Publishing; Women-owned business enterprises; Ownership

Partial Transcript: Yeah, and then there was--they said there was another one that we went to that weekend that I was in, that was downtown and I cannot remember the name of it.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton remembers going to another lesbian bar in the 1980s when she was visiting Lexington for the weekend. Simonton does not remember the name of the bar, but it was downtown and did not have the same tight-knit vibe as The Country because there were not regular patrons. Simonton thinks that having men in lesbian bars made women uncomfortable and she also sensed a bit of tension between drag performers and women they considered to be prettier than themselves. Simonton would also go to Johnny Angels, a gay bar downtown, but did not like the techno music they played. Simonton preferred the disco music that J.C. Conley (co-owner of The Country) played at The Country. Simonton did not feel welcome at Johnny Angels, explaining that the bartenders tended to ignore women in favor of flirting with men. Simonton's friend later became a bartender at Johnny Angels and had a better time when she was working there. Simonton says Johnny Angels and The Bar were staples of the Lexington LGBTQ bar scene during the 1970s and 1980s.

Keywords: The Country; Beauty; Johnny Angels (Bar); The Bar (Lexington, Ky.)

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Men; Women; Drag performances; Music; Techno music; Disco music; Disco musicians; Bartenders; Beer

Partial Transcript: --Um--you mentioned a few times that you all would get up to some crazy, sort of fun night. So, can you paint me a picture of like what would be a really good night at The Country.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton describes a typical night at The Country as a fun time with friends. Simonton would usually get drunk and take quaaludes. Simonton felt safe at The Country because she knew all of the regular patrons and frequently ran into her friends there. The bar closed at 1 AM and Simonton remembers frequently going to afterparties at people's homes. Simonton describes the unique last call procedure at The Country. J.C. Conley (co-owner of The Country) would flash the lights and play "Last Dance" by Donna Summer. Simonton felt safe and was glad to find a place where she could be herself for the first time. Simonton says that both people who were single and in a relationship went to The Country. Simonton did not stay in contact with most of the people she met at The Country. Simonton met up with a couple of people at a lake several years ago.

Keywords: The Country; Drinking; Fun; Quaaludes; J.C. Conley; Donna Summer; Communication; Last Dance (Song); Relationships

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Friendship; Drugs; Disco music; Dance; Dance floors; Methaqualone; Safety; Happiness; Marijuana; Parties; Summer, Donna; Songs; Identity; Partners; Social

Partial Transcript: And you mentioned softball a couple times.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton played with a softball team based out of Shillito Park on the south side of Lexington. Simonton also played softball for UK at what is now the location of the Haggin Hall dorm. Simonton says the mascot for one team was the stars. Simonton adds that the vast majority of the softball players were lesbian and would frequently go to The Country after games. Simonton does not remember having any issues with the straight players on the team, except for one woman who asked if she was going to be hit on.

Keywords: Shillito Park (Lexington, Ky.); Haggin Hall (University of Kentucky); The Country

Subjects: Softball; Softball teams; Softball players; Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Friendship; Social; University of Kentucky; Softball fields; Mascots; Women; Stereotypes (Social psychology); Discrimination; Prejudice

Partial Transcript: And so, obviously, you're in Washington for a number of years and eventually, you make your way back to Kentucky--.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton decided to move back to Kentucky in 1994 after experiencing a bad breakup and in order to be closer to her father who had cancer. Simonton found a job in Knoxville doing what she describes as "color stripping" for magazines and newspapers. After her father passed away, Simonton took a job in Lexington in the printing division of a communications company. Simonton remembers observing how much Lexington had changed since she moved away in 1981. Simonton has had some recent health challenges, including COPD. Simonton plans to move to Lexington from Frankfort in order to be closer to her doctors at UK Healthcare.

Keywords: Moving; Girlfriend; Breakups; Dudley's (Lexington, Ky.); Richmond Road (Lexington, Ky.); COPD (Disease); Healthcare

Subjects: Kentucky; Health; Lexington (Ky.); Frankfort (Ky.); Work; Careers; Father; Harlan (Ky.); Caregiving; Partners; Cancer; Death; Color; Publishing; USA Today (Firm); Change; Health; COVID-19 (Disease); COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-2023; Social distancing (Public health); Lungs--Diseases, Obstructive; University of Kentucky; Physicians

Partial Transcript: . . . Tell me more about the unemployment work stuff that you've been asked to kind of come back and do.

Segment Synopsis: Simonton explains her work as an unemployment investigator for the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Simonton is responsible for verifying that individuals are eligible for unemployment payments when their former employer claims that they were not actually laid off. Simonton must make a decision about an individual's eligibility for unemployment based on what the applicant and the employer say. Simonton says that one of the biggest changes to Lexington since moving back in the 1990s has been the growth and urban development of the city. Today, Simonton feels that she can be herself in Lexington without any issues and that people who do not share the same beliefs leave her alone, which was not the case during the 1970s and 1980s.

Keywords: Unemployment claims; Unemployment insurance; Kentucky Career Center; Employers; Decisions

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); State governments; Frankfort (Ky.); Unemployment; Layoff systems; Investigations; Truth; Nature; Urban development; Housing

Partial Transcript: How did you feel when you heard about this project . . .

Segment Synopsis: Simonton says that The Country had a major impact on her life. Going to The Country allowed Simonton to be herself for the first time in public without having to worry about her safety. Simonton explains that going to The Country gave her the self-confidence to not care what people thought about her and to be comfortable with her identity.

Keywords: The Country

Subjects: Oral history; Interviews; Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Safety; Identity; Judgment; Identity; Confidence