Interview with Jackie Higgins

Partial Transcript: Well, first to start us off, how about you share with me a little bit about yourself, just in general.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins is a native Lexingtonian and currently works at Marshalls in the Hamburg Shopping Center. Higgins graduated from Lexington Catholic High School in 1979 and worked at a variety of now-defunct companies until she had to quit working in her fifties to help care for her grandmother. Higgins returned to the retail sector after being away from it for several decades. Higgins was born at St. Joseph Hospital in 1961. Higgins was raised Catholic and attended St. Peter's Catholic School through the eighth grade. Higgins can recall when Lexington was segregated until the late 1960s. Higgins would visit her aunt (who was the manager) at the Strand Theatre on Main Street. Higgins briefly talks about The Kentucky Theatre and how it was sold during the COVID-19 Pandemic by longtime owner Fred Mills.

Keywords: Lexington Catholic High School; Marshalls (Store); It's The Levi's Place (Store); St. Peter Catholic Church (Lexington, Ky.); Strand Theatre (Lexington, Ky.); Kentucky Theatre (Lexington, Ky.); Fred Mills

Subjects: Early life; Childhood; Lexington (Ky.); Department stores; Careers; Retail trade; Grandmothers--Care; Segregation; Blacks; African Americans; Aunts; Motion picture theater owners; Motion picture theaters; Ownership; COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-2023

Partial Transcript: I discovered The Country, well we called it The Hidden Door . . .

Segment Synopsis: Higgins began going to The Country when she was nineteen, which was known as The Hidden Door by this time in the early 1980s. Higgins recalls going to The Hidden Door for the first time, entering at a storefront that was supposedly a wig store. Higgins recalls being nervous and scared to go since she had never been to a lesbian bar before. Higgins heard about The Hidden Door through friends she played softball with. Higgins was unsure about her sexuality and going to The Hidden Door helped answer some of those questions. Higgins met her first girlfriend at The Hidden Door but says it was a toxic and unhealthy relationship. Higgins adds that there were a lot of underage patrons at The Country, including Higgins. Higgins does not remember police raids but says that underage people who were caught had to be kicked out.

Keywords: The Country; Strip malls; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Sexuality; Relationships

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Softball; Fear; Friendship; Identity; Drinking age; Sexual orientation

Partial Transcript: And then we got other places after that. There was a place called The Bungalow, which was down on the Esplanade.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins went to other LGBTQ-friendly bars once The Hidden Door closed in the mid-1980s. Higgins says that there was a mixture of gay and lesbian patrons at the bars. Higgins remembers The Country being very dark inside and people dancing, including someone who would do a Michael Jackson impression. Higgins says that The Country was known as a place to hookup with women. For Higgins, The Country was a place to drink and socialize. Higgins explains that she stopped going out when she became content with being single. Higgins says she has not been in a relationship for fifteen years and feels happy with herself. Higgins adds that she cannot drink like she used to and it has become more expensive to go to bars. Higgins is also more cautious than when she was younger and would never drink and drive like she used to as a young person. Higgins explains that in her experience, it was more acceptable to do drink and drive in the early 1980s.

Keywords: The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); The Bungalow Bar; Esplanade (Lexington, Ky.); Bradley Picklesimer; The Bar (Lexington, Ky.); Johnny Angels; Club 141; Circus Disco (Lexington, Ky.); Cafe LMNOP; Michael Jackson; Relationships

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Bars (Drinking establishments); Nightlife; Drag shows; Drag performances; Dance; Impersonation; Jackson, Michael; Softball; Social; Satisfaction; COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-2023; Drunk driving

Partial Transcript: You know, like, when the AIDS epidemic hit, even though I'm a lesbian, I worried about--. You know, that slowed--I think that slowed a lot of people's like promiscuousness you know, down as well. Even for the lesbian population, not just the male population, it affected us all.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that she was concerned about the HIV/Aids epidemic in the 1980s. Higgins describes Dr. Anthony Fauci's role at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in helping to find treatments for HIV/AIDS by earning the trust of the gay community. Higgins provides her opinion on President Trump's response to the COVID-19 Pandemic. Higgins thinks that Trump did a lot of damage in calling the COVID-19 virus a "Democratic hoax." Higgins also thinks that Trump's inflammatory statements about minority groups (including the LGBTQ community) has emboldened people to be openly racist and prejudiced against people.

Keywords: AIDS epidemic; Dr. Fauci; National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases; MSNBC; Democrats; Joe Biden; Donald Trump

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; HIV (Viruses); HIV infections; Aids (Disease); Nineteen eighties; Health; Politics; Politicians; COVID-19 Pandemic, 2020-2023; Biden, Joseph R.; Presidents; Trump, Donald, 1946-; Rhetoric; Prejudice; Discrimination; Racism

Partial Transcript: --The gay community hasn't changed that much, we're a very accepting community.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins thinks that the Lexington LGBTQ community has always been accepting and welcoming. According to Higgins, the divide between gay men and lesbian women has lessened over time. Higgins believes that the divide between gay men and lesbian women in part originates from the fact that some gay men present as more feminine than lesbian women. Higgins says that there was a misunderstanding of each other between the two groups, which has been improving since people are more open about who they are today. Higgins adds that being gay is not as taboo as it was when she was young, except for in certain religious circles.

Keywords: The Country; Acceptance; Hypocritical

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Bars (Drinking establishments); Nightlife; Femininity; Identity; Religion; Christianity; Judgment; Sexual orientation

Partial Transcript: I was having doubts about my sexuality back when I was in my twenties and right around thirty, because I grew up Catholic.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that she was kicked out of the house at nineteen by her grandmother for being gay. Higgins returned to her grandmother's house about a year later after being in a toxic relationship. Higgins' grandmother wanted her to talk to their parish priest about her sexuality and identity. Higgins reluctantly agreed to talk to her parish priest after discovering one of the nuns who worked there was gay. Higgins says the priest clarified that she would not go to hell for being gay and that sex before marriage between all kinds of people were equally sinful in the eyes of God. Higgins felt reassured by the priest that her sexual orientation was not as taboo as people were making it out to be.

Keywords: Sexuality; Kicked out; Relationships; Girlfriend; St. Peter Catholic Church (Lexington, Ky.)

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Identity; Gays; Lesbians; Identity; Sexual orientation; Catholics; Grandmothers; Nuns; Priests; Hell; Sin

Partial Transcript: Do you remember other people talking about stuff like that though. Like, butch, femme, you know, that kind of thing.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that she considers herself to be in the middle of the butch and femme spectrum. Higgins prefers wearing men's pants because they fit her better. Higgins says she wears dresses to funerals or other formal occasions. Higgins wears business casual clothes to work and usually wears makeup. In her experience, Higgins says that so-called butch lesbians tend to be more domineering and a "top" when it comes to intimacy. Higgins discusses the different genres of lesbian literature. Higgins has connected with lesbian novelists through Facebook.

Keywords: Lesbian literature; Clothing; Men's pants; Makeup; Lipstick lesbians; Intimacy

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Butch and femme (Lesbian culture); Work; Fashion; Identity; Social media; Authors; Reading; Mystery in literature

Partial Transcript: Yeah, so, do you remember ever seeing any men at The Country. Gay men, straight men, you know, whatever kind of man at The Country or The Hidden Door?

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that only gay men went to The Country, in part because it was supposed to be a safe space for the LGBTQ community. Higgins began to discover her sexuality and identity while living in the Phi Beta Phi sorority house at the University of Kentucky. Higgins recalls being attracted to other women in the sorority. Initially, Higgins thought she might just be looking to fulfill a fantasy of being with a woman. Higgins soon realized that she was sexually attracted to women when she was unable to get enough sleep thinking about being attracted to her roommate. Higgins withdrew from UK after a year due to contracting mono and missing so many classes. Higgins began going to The Hidden Door after withdrawing from UK. Higgins was curious about the LGBTQ lifestyle and a friend who she had a crush on from softball suggested she go to The Hidden Door. Higgins met her first girlfriend at the hidden door.

Keywords: The Country; Sexuality; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Pi Beta Phi; Sorority rush; Girlfriend

Subjects: Men; Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); University of Kentucky; Identity; Greek letter societies; College sorority members; Roommates; Mononucleosis; Softball

Partial Transcript: Do you have any sort of favorite stories or memories or feelings, recollections about The Country?

Segment Synopsis: One of Higgins' fondest memories of The Country was hooking up with someone and spontaneously going to Red River Gorge the night they met. Higgins describes the night as magical, looking at the stars, camping and making a fire. For Higgins, a typical night at The Country consisted of drinking and socializing. Higgins considered The Country to be a place to meet women to hookup with. Higgins felt that she was still a bit naïve during this time and the hookup scene was all new to her. Higgins had more self-confidence when she was younger and says she does not feel as confident today. Higgins looks back on her time at The Country as a time when she came into her identity as a lesbian. Higgins says that The Country was the only lesbian bar in Lexington and consequentially was the best place to hookup with women. Higgins says that the drag shows at The Bar brought together the Lexington LGBTQ community.

Keywords: The Country; Hooking up; Fun; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); The Bar (Lexington, Ky.)

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Red River Gorge (Ky.); Wood; Fire; Camping; Stars; Dance; Social; Coming out (Sexual orientation); Confidence; Drag performances; Drag queens; Drag shows

Partial Transcript: I know that gay women have always kind of--um--watched drag. You know--you know from the Stonewall, you know what I'm saying? Back in the Stonewall days and everything.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins recalls that during the 1960s, gay men tended to be labeled as either "flamboyant" or as "queens." Higgins says there was a strong culture of fear and men being outed as gay. Higgins says that gay men and lesbian women suffered from police violence just for going to LGBTQ-friendly bars, citing the Stonewall Riots as an example. Higgins says that butch lesbians like Stormé DeLarverie played a major role in defending gay men from the police.

Keywords: Stormé DeLarverie

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Drag performances; Drag shows; Butch and femme (Lesbian culture); Stonewall Riots, New York, N.Y., 1969; Fear; DeLarverié, Stormé, 1920-2014; Police brutality; New York (N.Y.); Nineteen sixties; Drag queens

Partial Transcript: We were persecuted, anybody different was persecuted.

Segment Synopsis: According to Higgins, President Trump has brought back some of the hateful rhetoric towards minority groups that was prevalent during the 1960s. Higgins was motivated by President Trump's statements to become politically active again. Higgins says that she sees a lot of similarities between the political violence and racism of the 1960s and today. Higgins shares that she was named after Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. Higgins says that the LGBTQ community is one of the groups that have been targeted with political violence and hateful rhetoric. Higgins briefly provides her opinion on the January 6 United States Capitol attack in 2021. Higgins thinks that neither Trump or the organizers of the attack will be held accountable for their actions. Higgins believes that Senator Mitch McConnell is an enabler of Trump. Higgins says that she felt safe at The Country and with police, but had heard that some gay men have been harassed by the police.

Keywords: Donald Trump; JFK assassination. [1963-11-23]; John F. Kennedy; Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis; Accountability; January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol; Mitch McConnell; Republicans; The Country

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Prejudice; Discrimination; Politics; Trump, Donald, 1946-; Racism; Childhood; Catholics; Parents; Nineteen sixties; Kennedy, John F. (John Fitzgerald), 1917-1963; Onassis, Jacqueline Kennedy, 1929-1994; Washington (D.C.); McConnell, Mitch; Harassment; Lexington (Ky.); Violence; Police; Safety

Partial Transcript: --Um--so, obviously, The Country was the only women's you know, lesbian--solely lesbian focus kind of bar. --Um--were there any other spaces, whether it was, you know, softball, people's houses, house parties. Were there any other spaces where you could go and hangout with all women?

Segment Synopsis: In terms of other lesbian spaces in Lexington, Higgins says that the owners of The Country would have parties at their house in the Eastland neighborhood. Higgins says that she stayed in contact with some of the people she met at The Country, but does not go out anymore. Higgins' hairdresser was a friend from The Country. Higgins recalls when her hairdresser intervened in a confrontation she was having with someone. Higgins says she found out about this oral history project through her hairdresser.

Keywords: The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Eastland (Lexington, Ky.); Hairdressers

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Friendship; Parties; Social; Social media

Partial Transcript: And I don't know if the young people today that go out, if they do the same thing that--you know what I'm saying? --That are--like that are going out at that same age in this day and age. It'd be interesting to find out what their habits and their---why they go out.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins and the interviewer discuss the social lives of LGBTQ young people today. The interviewer says that it is more difficult for underage LGBTQ youth to go out to bars than when Higgins was young because there are more stringent ID checks and requirements to verify that people are over twenty-one. Higgins says that most of the people at The Country were sixteen or seventeen and she was the outlier at nineteen. The interviewer also remarks on how there are no bars geared towards lesbians only anymore and that is part of the appeal of The Country, it being sort of a space lost to time.

Keywords: Driver's license; The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.)

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Drinking age; Identification; Teenagers; High school

Partial Transcript: . . . And you learn that there's someone doing some kind of project about The Country. --Um--what did you think of that? Like were you--were you not surprised, were you surprised? What did you think of just like learning about the existence of like this kind of project?

Segment Synopsis: The interviewer describes how this oral history project came about. There was very little scholarly documentation about The Country, only a passing mention in the list of LGBTQ bars in Lexington in a 2001 dissertation at UK by Jeff Jones called "Hidden histories, proud communities : multiple narratives in the queer geographies of Lexington, Kentucky, 1930-1999." Higgins says that famous drag artist Bradley Picklesimer has returned to Kentucky. Higgins explains that she learns about news in the Lexington LGBTQ community through LGBTQ customers at Marshalls. Higgins discusses Crossings Lexington, a well-known LGBTQ bar on Limestone in Lexington. Higgins says that Crossings had a reputation as a "leather bar," but Higgins found it very welcoming when she visited during the Lexington pride celebrations one year. Higgins adds that there is a lot of intermingling between LGBTQ and non-LGBTQ groups near Crossings because there are several bars nearby. Higgins also mentions that Crossings is now owned by a lesbian couple.

Keywords: The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Faulkner Morgan Archive; Marshalls (Store); Crossings Lexington; Limestone Street (Lexington, Ky.)

Subjects: Gays; Lesbians; Lexington (Ky.); Nightlife; Bars (Drinking establishments); Interviews; Work; Department stores; Gay pride celebrations; Women-owned business enterprises; Dissertations

Partial Transcript: And during Pride, there's all kinds of people . . .

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that the LGBTQ community is more accepted by wider society due to people being more open-minded. Fundamentally, Higgins thinks that society as a whole is starting to realize that love is the same regardless of the gender of the couple. Higgins says that education is key to combatting stereotypes that people have of the LGBTQ community. Higgins adds that people who have someone in their lives who identifies as LGBTQ will help to combat harmful stereotypes. Higgins says that people are more aware of when they are talking to a person who identifies as LGBTQ because people are not as afraid to be who they are compared to the stigma associated with being different when Higgins was young. Higgins believes that religious groups shaming people for being LGBTQ are harmful and people cannot change who they are.

Keywords: Acceptance

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Gay pride celebrations; Education; Stereotypes (Social psychology); Love; Gender; Identity; Religion; Christianity; Conversion therapy

Partial Transcript: How do you feel when you look back on The Country?

Segment Synopsis: Higgins says that her experiences at The Country helped shape her identity today. Higgins has some regrets about the number of people she slept with because she says she got a bad reputation. Higgins felt it was unfair that she was being judged in this way when other women who were doing the same thing did not get a bad reputation. Higgins feels that she is a different person than she was back then, especially since she has not been in a relationship for fifteen years. Higgins felt that she needed to have these experiences to help find her identity.

Keywords: The Country; The Hidden Door (Lexington, Ky.); Relationships

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Bars (Drinking establishments); Music; Dance; Identity; Youth; Reputation; Regret

Partial Transcript: I did almost have a nervous breakdown and it was because of the first relationship that I had, that failed.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins almost had a mental health crisis in the aftermath of her breakup with her first girlfriend. Higgins says that she was in an abusive relationship with her first girlfriend and this dynamic took a toll on Higgins. Higgins lost 90 pounds and did not know who she was anymore. Prior to starting this relationship, Higgins was working at McAlpin's (a department store that was a precursor to Dillard's) and modeled at back to school fashion shows. Higgins was mocked by her peers in high school for dressing up in nice clothes every day. Higgins says that it was a culture shock to come from her straight-laced, conventional, Catholic upbringing to the counterculture of The Country. Up until Higgins was kicked out of her grandmother's house at nineteen for being gay, she had a bit of a self-described "sheltered" upbringing. Higgins says her grandmother was strict and would not allow her to go to sleepovers. Higgins was adopted by her maternal grandparents as a baby following her parents' divorce. Higgins grew up in the house she lives in now with her grandmother and great-aunt. Higgins cared for her great-aunt when she went into hospice after developing colon cancer. Higgins was very close to her great-aunt and says she was the relative who understood her the most. Higgins recalls going to see "The Sound of Music" at the movie theatre where her great-aunt worked and singing along to the songs. Higgins' great-aunt retired from managing the Strand Theatre and worked as a switchboard operator at McAlpin's and got Higgins a job there. Higgins' great-aunt had two friends in the shipping department that were gay and knew Higgins' girlfriend and warned against getting involved with her. Higgins blames herself for getting involved with her first girlfriend and not listening to her great aunt's friends. Higgins is also concerned about the positive reputation of this person and how people would react to her perception of the relationship.

Keywords: Relationships; Girlfriend; Breakup; Abusive relationships; McAlpin Co. (Cincinnati, Ohio); School shows; Great aunts; Colon cancer; Strand Theatre (Lexington, Ky.); "The Sound of Music" (Movie); Switchboard operators

Subjects: Lexington (Ky.); Gays; Lesbians; Partners; Mental health; Weight loss; Identity; Modeling; Department stores; Culture shock; Grandparents; Parents; Grandmothers; Adoption; Divorce; Aunts; Cancer; Hospice care; Motion picture theater managers; Musicals

Partial Transcript: Don't ever let anybody ever do that to you, where you lose yourself in a relationship, okay? Always be true to yourself.

Segment Synopsis: Higgins provides some relationship advice, including not losing sight of yourself in a relationship. Higgins says that people who try to change their partner do not truly love them. Higgins thinks that she was looking for love from other people instead of loving herself when she got into her abusive relationship. Higgins adds that people need to learn to love themselves before getting into a relationship. Higgins shares some final thoughts about learning from mistakes as people grow older and passing on that wisdom to young LGBTQ individuals.

Keywords: Relationships; Abusive relationships; Advice; Manipulation

Subjects: Identity; Gays; Lesbians; Love; Partners