Oral History Interview with Johnny Goins

START OF INTERVIEW

Johnny Goins: 1:00My name’s Johnny Goins, Manchester, Kentucky of Pat's Snack Bar.

Sara Wood: And what's your birthday? For the record?

JG: 12/21/ 2:00 62

SW: Almost Christmas!

JG: Almost!

SW: 3:00Johnny, did you grow up here in Manchester?

JG: Yes ma’am. Grew up here all my life.

SW: Can you talk a little bit about what you remember about it growing up. What did people do for work? What was it like?

JG: 4:00Mostly it was coal mines or just state highway jobs, jobs at the school board. Something like that, you know. Sometimes you had fast food, but not a whole lot. It was fun. I mean, it was hard, but it was fun.

SW: Are your parents from here?

JG: Yes ma'am.

SW: What are your parents names?

JG: James Goins and Amy Jewel Goins. They both passed away.

SW: Do you have brothers and sister?

JG: I have one brother and three sisters. Yes ma'am.

SW: 5:00What is the age— are you at the top there?

JG: No, my sister's older than me. She's 55, I'm 53, my brother is 50, my other sister is 47, and my other sister is 42.

SW: Do they all live here in Manchester County?

JG: Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am.

SW: I wonder if you could start by telling me a little bit about— what did you know about Pat's growing up?

JG: 6:00Oh Lord. My grandmother— when I was nine years old, and she and I came in. I started growing up in here. Started playing pool. This used to be a pool room. You know, just an old pool room. I tried playing pool in here and then I got to meet Pat, you know, and Juanita, and all of ‘em that worked here. And Pat's the owner. To me he is still the owner, you know, so I got to know him. So he just let me start working. Kind of working my way through school and making money. We got to be good friends, so I've been here ever since.

SW: I know being nine and being here was a while ago. 7:00But what do you remember about the place at nine? What was it like in here?

JG: The old Pat's? Oh my God, it was— yeah. I mean, to me, it was beautiful. It was just an old run down place, you know, in Clay Clounty, side of a hill. Blasted out the rock with dynamite. Busted windows out all over town. Now, that's what he told me, so I’m going to take his word for it. Now him and his brother built this place, done all the electric, plumbing,everything like that. So, you know, to me this is home. That's what I've done all my life.

SW: So your grandmother brought you here?

JG: 8:00Yes ma'am. When I was nine years old.

SW: Now, I'm curious because I have heard that women really didn't hang out in pool halls.

JG: No. No women was allowed in the pool room when I first started playing pool. You know, coming in here. I used to rack pool for a dime a game. But we made good money back then ‘cause everybody played pool. We had six tables. But no women came through the door. They could come to the door and kind of motion to the men or yell at ‘em or something, which that’s what they about done. 9:00Just a bunch of men, you know. We just play a little pool, we’d drink a few beers. Pat didn't care so long as there were no fighting or nothing. But it was pretty good, though.

SW: 10:00So what was your grandmother doing here?

JG: She just come over and eat three times a day. She would cook everyday at the house but she would still come here and eat three times a day.

SW: So she wouldn't eat her own cooking?

JG: Oh, yes, she’d eat her own cooking, but she, I don't know. Everybody's friends over here, family. She'd just come in three times a day. She walked over here three times a day.

SW: Where did she live?

JG: She lived over in Middletown. Maybe a mile away. She walked across the old swinging bridge.

SW: She walked here three times a day?

JG: 11:00Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am.

SW: That's something I’m really curious about. Because everybody who has talked about Manchester has mentioned Pat's. Can you talk a little bit about what this place means to the people of Manchester.

JG: 12:00Oh my God. I mean, I don't know about the people of Manchester, but to me, I mean, this is home. You know, you can come here Pat would feed anybody even if they didn’t have money. I don't know just a lot of sentimental ties. But everybody that comes to Manchester, they're going to come to Pat's sooner or later. I mean they really are. And now we got the bar and everything, which, I like the old Pat's. I'm stuck in old times, so I just like the old Pat's.

SW: What did you like so much about it?

JG: 13:00Oh just the atmosphere, the people. I mean the old people that passed away, my friends, Pat, Juanita. Everybody I grew up with down here that took care of me. I miss them. I really do.

SW: Do you feel like by being here after all of those folks passed that you’re keeping it going somehow?

JG: I do it for Pat and Juanita, be honest with you, I sure do. That's the only reason I'm here. Other than that...I wouldn’t care, I just, I don’t know. I love ‘em. I do.

SW: And they were like family.

JG: Oh, yes, yes. Absolutely.

SW: Do you remember the first time you met Pat?

JG: 14:00Yeah. Big guy. Oh my God. Scared me to death. I tell you what—one of the sweetest, nicest persons you'll ever met in your life. Now he was, oh my God, six-three? Six-four? Big, I mean a big guy, yes. He was tender, he was nice, he wasn't going to hurt nobody. If you started fighting or something he would come and he would talk to you. He won't jump onto you. Second time, he give you a warning. And the third time, you're out. I mean you're out. You're gone, yeah. But I mean, that's Pat though. But, you know, nobody went hungry. I mean, he’d feed anybody, do anything to work for anybody. But you just couldn't raise cane in this place, you know, ‘cause that's his business. But it was nice, it really was.

SW: I'm curious— did he kick people out himself?

JG: 15:00Oh yes! Absolutely. He'd get ahold of you and put you out the door, yes! If you messed with him too much, I mean, like I said, he's the gentle, nicest guy you ever want to meet. But if you aggravated him, yeah, he would take you to the door now, he would. He sure would. But he done it in a good way, you know. He wouldn't have no hard feelings. Everybody’d always come back. They would. So it was good.

SW: 16:00What can you tell me about Pat? I think someone told me that he played basketball, I heard he’s tall, but what else could you tell me about Pat?

JG: Oh God, he's a heck of a pool player. Oh my God, he could play pool. And to run the business and to get to know people. You know, for the customers or just whoever wanted to come in and talk to him. He’s the kind of many that could sit and talk to you about serious stuff, sit and talk to you about your family, or just talk and cut up with you. He was just that kind of person. Everybody was his friend. I don't know how to explain it. He had old pants on, old galluses on, old black hat, and a black leather jacket. But, he was the sweeting person in the world. He sure was.

SW: 17:00I'm curious— you were talking about what a heck of a pool player he was. Was he selective about who he played?

JG: He would play anybody. I mean, I got pretty good, I mean, I’m not saying nothing wrong, but I did. I got pretty good growing up in there. But there’s no way I could play with him, no. He was good, now, he really was. But I got the old board game, and the old sign that was outside. I got the old grill. And I had a pool table, but I gave it away because I had nowhere to put it. I gave it to one of the workers down there, s to me, I still got Pat's at home, you know. So, if they fire me or whatever, I'm happy. I'm still happy.

SW: I wondering, Johnny, how did you start working here?

JG: 18:00Just going to school, got to know Pat. Well my grandmother, I guess, knew him for years and stuff. I just came in and got to know him and everything, you know, he kind of trusted me— I done what he told me whenever he told me. I used to paint the place. I'd come here play a rack of pool for a dime a game. Oh God, everything in the world, I don’t know, he just got to where he trusted me with everything. And then, nine o'clock in the morning, and I'd get here about eight. Nobody else got here at nine, but he was already here. He'd let me in, just have me lock the door back. And we'd just sit and talk. I mean he was just about like a second daddy, really. I mean he was awful good to me. He really was.

SW: Can you explain for— I didn't know what this was because I didn't grow up knowing pool halls. But what does it mean to rack?

JG: 19:00Oh that's where you put a— if they wanna play, well, there's all kinds of games. You can play six ball, nine ball, eight ball, double check, there's just different ways that you rack the ball. Put the balls in the rack. That’s about the only way I know how to explain it. And then we had this old board game— it was called Amos and Andy, but we just called it the board game down here. And I've still got it at home, so, I don't know. I started with them old guys in there. There was old guys— Preacher Cottrell and then Odie Moore. They started just letting me help them along and everything like that. When they quit, in order to here it up, I just took over. Been here every since.

SW: 20:00Ok, so you started racking pool when you were younger, and then what kind of responsibilities did you get?

JG: I got coming here one day and Juanita Hilbert stood right there, worked for Pat for 42 years. She come in she said, You're cooking tonight. I had never cooked a day in my life! I mean, honestly. I never cooked. She said, well, you’re on the grill. You know, people come in lookin’ ‘Cause everybody knew me, you know, everybody come in, says, What are you doing? I said, I'm cooking. Said, what? Take your choice. That's what I told them. I've been cooking ever since. Cook all night. I work six nights a week.

SW: 21:00Can you talk about the menu here? Like what kind of food is it?

JG: Oh, we got hamburgers, cheeseburgers, ham and cheese, tenderloin, rib-eyes. Oh my God, grilled chicken. I mean, but I'd say the best thing, to me, now, the chili. It's the chili fixed right like Pat and Juanita used to make it. It's awesome. To me, there's none no better. But, there probably is, but to me, there's not.

SW: I heard a lot about this chili. And we don't ask people to give away recipes or anything like that because I know that’s is secret. But do you know how Pat got the recipe for this?

JG: 22:00I don't know how he got it, but I mean, when I work for Juanita down here, she was still working for Pat, so I'd help her at nights. And she taught me how to make the chili. And then Pat, you know, he would kind of just watch me and say whatever, you need to do this and you need to do that. So, I kind of put both together, you know. To me, I make it like that everyday, every time I make it I make it, like that. So, like I said, I am just stuck in the old times.

SW: Well I don't know if it is that. Maybe it is just that, you know, this place...

JG: Just so much respect, I think. I think that's where it is. So, you know, but it's fun. I know everybody that comes in here. I can tell you what ninety percent of the people want coming through the door. They never change.

SW: They always want the same thing?

JG: They never change. They come through the door and I say, You know you want this? You want this grilled, onion, mayonnaise, tomato? But I've been here so long I just, I know everybody and everybody knows me. We get a few strangers every once in a while. You know, people come in that I know. I come act the fool, carry on with ‘em. Some I don't know, I treat with respect, you know, no matter what, man or woman, child, whatever. But when I was a little kid come in here, I’m just like Pat. All the little kids come in here, we give them candy. We buy candy every Halloween. We buy $150 or $200 worth every Halloween. Me and Charles Stivers, do, yes ma'am, and we give candy out, yeah. And then, Thanksgiving and Christmas, whatever they need, we try to take care of. But that's Pat's tradition, so I'm good with it.

SW: 23:00Can you tell me, who is Juanita? I've heard a lot about her.

JG: Juanita Hilbert lived in London, she worked for Pat. I don't know a whole a lot about her. She worked for Pat for forty-two years. I just met her down here, so. I'd come down here and help her. She'd holler at me to do something or do this or do that and I'd go ahead and do it, you know. But, I was good friends and everything. She used to live in London. She passed away. I was good friends and everything. I was a pallbearer at her funeral, I was a pallbearer for Pat’s funeral. You know, it's hard. But it's good.

SW: When did Pat pass away?

JG: 24:00God, I wish you hadn't asked me that. I got his card still at the house.

SW: Has it been more than ten years?

JG: Yeah, it's been right at ten or eleven years. Yes ma'am.

SW: I heard Juanita passed shortly after him?

JG: Pat passed away— no Juanita passed away first. Then, thirteen days later Pat passed away. Yes ma'am.

SW: So, I heard some stories about Juanita. She sound like a total awesome badass.

JG: She is, oh God. I mean, if you come in here and be nice to her, she'll be nice to you. If you're hungry, she'll feel you. If you want gas money or just—depending on the circumstances, she'll help you. I mean it don't matter. But now, if you cross her, oh God, she's heck on wheels, yes.

SW: 25:00I think that maybe it was Jason who told me the story about how somebody had stolen money— like twelve dollars—and for three months, she stayed up with a shotgun.

JG: Oh yeah, well we had a little jar, where if some little kid was in the hospital, we would try and help whoever we can. So we set a jar out and put a little picture and tell them what's happening. Some guy one time, I'm not going to say the name, but we found out he came in and kind of borrowed the money, I'm going to say. She don't go for that. Nobody around here goes for nothing like that. Especially the older people. You know, the older people that come in here have been here a long time. You can leave it out on the counter and they won't touch it. Now the younger generation, you better lock it up. Because it is a different race, it really is.

SW: 26:00I’m curious about, you mentioned at the beginning how Pat blew out with dynamite the rock. Can you talk about how, what this place used to look like? So you said this was the pool hall. Can you kind of walk me through what this place—

JG: This place here now, through this door, this used to be the restaurant. They had a little hole cut somewhere right in here, I believe. And this was the pool, it had six pool tables, had a big fan up here, and had the gas heater in the back where the wall is right now. And if you turned the heater on, it would burn you up right here. But it would freeze you to death back there. No insulation, just an old block building. Yes, you'd order your food, they'd holler at you through that little door right there and just hand it up to you. Then, over here used to be a furniture store. Then upstairs that was Pat's office or whatever, you know. And then, I don't know, we just, I think Charles Stivers kind of took over here four and a half years ago. And I've been here so long that he just kept me on. I mean I’m just about as old as the building, I guess. I mean, we have fun, we do. He changed it around a lot, but it’s still, to me, I’ll never forget the old Pat's. 27:00But now he come in. You know, Pat would come in he’d say, well he used to charge by the game. When he got where he couldn't get nobody younger to help him out, he’d charge it by the hour. So he'd be sitting in his little rocker over there, black leather jacket on, black hat. He’d get up there every hour on the hour. He wouldn't miss it two or three minutes. It's all a little half-dollar, a little fifty cents, you know, everybody would throw it their fifty cents every time he'd put it in his pocket and go on out. The next hour he'd come right back in and do the same thing. But, you know, he liked it, he joked, he cut up. Like I said, if you wanted something to eat or something to drink and you didn't have the money, it didn't matter. He would take care of you. But, you know, sooner or later he may ask you to do something, so you can't turn him down. But I worked my way through school right here. Painting, cleaning, it didn't matter what. Busted all the rocks up behind the building. All that falls off the hill. Busted all them out, carried them out. Yes ma’am.

SW: That doesn't sound like an easy job.

JG: No, no, but back then it didn't matter. 28:00And I’d take you to the house right now and show you all the rocks I put in up there, I mean they’re still up there. You know, that was work that was helping me through school. Didn't know it at the time, but Pat was teaching me. You know, I was young, I didn't care for— you know how boys are. But he was teaching me. I’m beginning to understand now, so. I'm still learning. It's good, though.

SW: So Johnny did you basically— from the time you were nine, you came in here and—?

JG: I've never left. I've never left. I work six days a week. I'm off today. I went four-wheeler riding there with a bunch of my friends, come down here, you know. I got some—two comes from London, come down here and see me. I mean, everywhere. And we come in and we cut ‘em, we act the fool, you know. We'll eat and we may drink a beer. It just depends on what they want to do. But we have a good time.

SW: That's incredible.

JG: 29:00I've been lucky. I really have. I mean I could have done a lot worse than growing up in a pool room, around here anyway. I mean we had a lot going on back then, but the older men kind of took care of me. They might do a little bit, they’d jerk me back in. Hey, I’d say, I'm learning, I'm learning. But they done me good, now, they really did.

SW: I'm curious, you know, you've talked a lot about how Juanita and Pat, they take care of people here. If they didn't have any money, they would feed them.

JG: Yes ma'am.

SW: Could you talk a little bit about Clay County in terms of like— have times been hard for people here? Is it important for people to look out for each other here?

JG: 30:00You know, back then people did look out for each other. But now, everything has changed so much, you got so much going on with the different drugs,different style of people, I’m gonna say. I don't know, the old bunch, they’re gone now. To me, I never thought I would say, but I guess I am the older bunch now, so. Now the friends I grew up with around here, the ones that still living, we still come in, we cut up, we act a fool, they go to their house, they come to mine. I mean, its still like a family. But this younger bunch, I just let them do what they want to do.

SW: 31:00It's crazy.

JG: It's bad. It's getting to be bad now. I don't know how to say it. I’m not no smart person or nothing like that. But you can tell how the people change. And times are changing, whatever. And it's not going to be good, it's really not.

SW: Are people kind of struggling here right now for work?

JG: Oh yes, yes. If you don't have a job with the school board, state highway, the prison, you better have to leave town. Because all of the coal is about gone. That's what everybody used to do. And used to, the young boys, back when I was growing up you could get a job anywhere, you know. You might not like what you was doing, but you could work and make money like I did. But, they don't even do it anymore. Everybody is trying to work or something. I guess it depends on how you was raised I guess. I don't know.

SW: 32:00Now it sounds like you were raised—

JG: I was raised hard. But I had fun, though. I mean got a better life right now. I mean, more than I'd ever thought I'd have. But this is, I don't know, it was more funner back then. I didn't have much, but, oh my God, it was fun.

SW: It was really about the people, right?

JG: Yes. You didn't have to have nothing. If you’re not [inaudible 19:17], then you had it. But now, you know, it's just different. I just don't like changes. Not like this, anyway.

SW: Six days a week. So you come in, you start around five?

JG: 33:00Yes ma'am.

SW: And how late are you here until?

JG: Well sometimes, Well, we close here at eleven, twelve. You know, sometimes on the weekends I get out of here about one maybe. Because I stay here and make sure everybody comes out of the bar and everybody’s good. I took people home, I walk people to their cars. But that goes with it. That's your customers. If you give them good food, you make customers happy, talk to ‘em like, cut up, act the fool. If something’s wrong with them, talk to them or whatever, they’ll come back. That's the main thing. You’ve got to make friends.

[Phone rings]

SW: Do you want to get that?

JG: No, no.

SW: I just have a couple of questions for you, is that okay?

JG: That's fine.

SW: 34:00I want to get back to the chili for a second, because that’s really originally what brought me to Southeastern Kentucky, because everyone was talking about chili buns. What do you know about chili buns here at Pat's? Did people order them a lot when the kitchen was here?

JG: Oh yes, yes. Chili buns, hot dogs. Back then they had chili buns, hot dogs, hamburgers, ham and cheese, and cheeseburgers. That was about it. Pat never did have a phone. He didn't want a phone. Too much. Never did serve french fries or nothing like that. You know, that's all he had. He wanted it simple. But the way times change, you gotta to kind of keep up with the flow. So we added more and we added this, added that. But Pat always said, you know, you can have too much as well as not having enough. And he also said that if money is doing good - which back then, you know, you could raise it a nickel. But if you raise it a quarter, people will pay attention. So that's what I still go by. 35:00You know, so. I had a place in London, maybe, five and a half or six and a half years ago. I left here one day. I said, I'm done. I left. I went to London and opened a place up the next day. Copied him. Which I figured, you know, I probably might have had the right, but really I didn't. Hamburgers, ham and cheese, hot dogs. Whatever they had, I had. I stayed over there for about two years. They talked me into coming back. So I said, well, I miss it anyway. So I did. I shut mine down the next day. When they asked me, I shut mine down the next day. Moved everything out and come back. I said, I'll be back tomorrow. I came back tomorrow, started working, and never left again. And will not leave ‘til I fore die right here. I won't.

SW: 36:00What was the name of the place in London?

JG: That was J & J.

SW: J & J.

JG: Yeah.

SW: And what made you do that? Why did you decide to do that?

JG: I don't know. I just kind of got tired and stuff. And then I said, well, If I can do this for everybody else. Which, I didn't know at the time, I was working my rear end off, but I was being tired at the same time. But I didn't understand that at the time. And I said, well if I can do this for them, make them that money, I can make it for me. Which, I mean, I did make money. But, it's not the same. If you got your heart here and you go somewhere else, it’s not the same. It's not. That's bad, but it is not. I made lot of friends in London. A lot of good people. Had a good time. But this is home. This has always been home right here.

SW: 37:00What do you think Pat's means to the people of Manchester and Clay County?

JG: If there weren't Pat’s? Oh my God. A lot of people would probably go hungry. I mean seriously, they would. Nowhere to go, nothing to do. At least you can come out of the house, you can come in here and you can sit down and talk to people. Visit, whatever. But that’s a whole lot. But now, back years ago, if Pat's were closed up, a lot of people would go hungry. A lot of kids anyway. Yeah, that would have been bad.

SW: 38:00It's not just a bar and a restaurant.

JG: It's a family place. I mean, to me it is. It's good. But, now, his son still owns the building and everything. You know Charles just got his own ways, but you know, that’s good. And he'll never sell the building. It will never be sold. Can't change the name— that's in the paperwork. So it’ll always be Pat's. That’s the main thing.

SW: 39:00Do you think, Johnny, that there is a connection to chili - a specific kind of chili here in Manchester. Is there something unique about the chili here? I feel like everyone talks about the chili.

JG: I mean we’ve got two or three or four people who makes chili now. They put I guess kind of fix how they like or what they expect they chili to be. I am not saying, no it's good. I’ve eat all of ‘em. To me, if you have something for fifty or sixty years, why change it? I mean, if it’s working good, don't change it. So, I think right in here right now, I am the only one that can make the chili close—not the exact same thing, but close to Pat and Juanita. Because they helped me, they trained me, you know. But now, everybody else, they’ll add a little of this or a little of that. Now, I just make mine. I try to make mine the same way that Pat and them does. But not like them, but just close.

SW: 40:00Do you know how Pat and Juanita met?

JG: I have no idea.

SW: Were they just friends or were they like romantic?

JG: No, no. Pat was married to Dorothy House, a school teacher. She retired from the school board, and I don't know. Oh no, Pat and Juanita, they were real good friends. Juanita being here for forty-two years, and how they ever met I have no idea, to be honest with you.

SW: 41:00I was curious about that ‘cause I knew Pat was married but I wasn't sure. I think it is so cool that Juanita was here when there wasn't typically women in.

JG: Oh yeah. You know, to me— everybody. You can ask just about everybody. Everybody thought that Pat and Juanita was married. But no, they wasn't, really. I mean as far as any other kind of relationship, I couldn't say. I wouldn't think so. Because both of them was happily married. And they had good men and good women. So, I am going to say no on that. But two of the best people that you’re ever going to meet. I wish to God they were still alive. I wished you could meet them. I do. Now, Pat was in the hospital one day, now, his wife fell and broke her elbow and her pelvic bone. You know, they took her to Lexington and everything like that. So Pat was answering the phone one time. So Pat went to answer the phone one time—and this is a true story. Nobody’s ever been in his house like that. Pat went to answer the phone one time. He fell and broke his hip. So, Juanita told me about it, so I said, you know, I’m leaving. 42:00I went over, and I always called him old man, you know. I said, Anything you need, old man? I said, is there anything you need all? He said, I’m getting ready to see my mama. I said, is there anything I can do for you? He had his daughter-in-law over there and his son, he said, "Yeah, he told his daughter-in-law, he said, Give me the keys to the house. And she looked at me, she said, What's up, Pat? He said, "Johnny’s going to stay at my house until I get back." I stayed there for thirty-three days. He told me, he said, nobody comes in his house. I said, nobody will be in your house. I stayed there for thirty-three days and took care of his dog. Sure did. And nobody has. As far as I know, now, has ever drove with Pat. And his mama was still in the hospital, her son come down and said, drive mom's car, you know, do whatever you want to do. Just be here at night. So I drive down here, and I’d eat, and I’d go back up there. But that's respect. There is no way that nobody was coming in the house.

SW: 43:00It sounds like you were kind of like a son to Pat.

JG: Oh, God, I loved him to death. Well his son, Morris House, was born December 21, 1952. I was born December 21, 1962. He's ten years older than me to a day. Yes ma'am. I am telling you God's truth.

SW: That's nuts.

JG: That's how I can remember his birthday. It sure is.

SW: The same day ten years apart?

JG: Ten years apart.

SW: That's awesome. Johnny, I don't have too many other questions for you but I wanted to ask you if there is something that you think is important that you want to share about Pat's. That you will think people should know.

JG: 44:00I think the younger people that come to Pat's now. I think they ought to get somebody to tell them the stories and just kind of respect, you know, the people and the place that it used to be. And, you know, the place it is now. But to me, I just want the old place back. That's what I want. But it’ll never happen. But maybe when I leave here, I may open another one up. You never know! So, if I do, it’ll be the old Pat's. It would be the old floors down. 45:00You know, it won't be a bad place, but it won’t be spotless, I’m going to say. It’ll be a family place but it would be a good place.

SW: It would have some character to it?

JG: Oh yes. Yes. And some of the old things I’ve got from the old Pat's, I'll put on the wall. Yes.

SW: Well, Johnny, I really thank you for doing this.

JG: Oh, yes ma'am.

SW: It's been really an honor. Because I know there is so much history.

JG: It's rough, but it’s all right.

SW: I'm glad you're still here.

JG: Thank you, thank you so much.