Oral History Interview with Susan Goldstein and Mary Reed, August 16, 2007

Goldstein: How many times did you get rejected?

Reed: Only a couple. ( )

Goldstein: And when you got rejected you said that. Of course, everyone says that. You have to, that's how you boost yourself back up.

Willihnganz: So, you were rejected several times?

Goldstein: Yes, I was rejected 3.

Willihnganz: You were rejected three times. Wow.

Reed: We had one past president that was rejected 9 times?

Goldstein: Yea, we tend to take over, we’re rejects. We said we're going to get them no matter what.Take over the board.

Willihnganz: And you've been the president how many years? Just one? Two? Three years.

Goldstein: And then three years I was director of their exhibit program. The only really active exhibit program that they've had, where I . . . I want to say I curated, probably 2 to 5 exhibits a year. At least 6 to 8 of those were large independent exhibits shown at art centers at different parts of the state. When I say independent I mean there was no traveling exhibit. Each one was completely different. I did that for about three years.

Willihnganz: And how about you, Mary?

Reed: I served on the Guild board for 7 years. I spent three as secretary and three as vice president and currently I'm on the advisory board.

Willihnganz: Okay. What's the difference between the advisory board and the board?

Reed: The board is an elected position. The advisory is an appointed position and you act as an advisory to the board because you have so much history with the past.

Goldstein: You get to talk, but you don't get to vote.

Reed: That's a good way to put it.

Goldstein: And the regulations that apply to board members, do not apply to us. In other words, it might be mandatory to attend a certain number of meetings and do certain other things that doesn't apply to us.

Willihnganz: So tell me, what do you think of the health of this organization right now?

Reed: Are we being recorded right now?

Willihnganz: Yea. There's a little red dot somewhere.

Goldstein: Well, I think we have a fairly new and active president. She's dedicated and working around the clock to reestablish the organization. There's a new board. New blood is always very important to any organization. And I think they are pushing forward. Trying to meet the challenges of defining the organization, so that it can be active, productive and successful in the 21st century. And that's a challenge for all art organizations, especially the older ones that were established with goals that no longer pertain from 40 or 50 years ago. The overall mission of the organization is still the same, but things have changed.

Willihnganz: It occurs to me that all I'm using is the mics right there. If we really want to get good sound, I should have actually hook up our microphones, our remotes. If we're going to use this for promotional purposes or whatever. Maybe I should go do that real quick.

Goldstein: Okay.

Willihnganz: Start us up again. Sorry about that. Okay. So what do you want to accomplish with this documentary we're talking about doing?

Goldstein: We can discuss the purpose of it and our background with the guild that led us to balance this interest in promoting the organization and by doing so promoting the arts in Kentucky.

Reed: I believe our concern is that the founders of the Kentucky Guild of Artists and Craftsmen are passing on because of their age. That was in 1961 and we feel that it's very important to document that history while there are still a few of them around to tell us what that is. And the purpose and the meaning and how it all became so important to the artists and craftsmen in Kentucky.

Willihnganz: The impression I've gotten from talking to just the four folks I've interviewed so far, is that this was the seminal and really the first important crafts artists organization in the state and that other organizations really sprang from this. A lot of the side things. Would you agree with that?

Goldstein: Yes I would. There were other organizations such as the Lexington Art League that was founded just a few years before. But this organized and opened up channels for communication between the artists and it also provided a partnership between art educators and artists and state. And that was something new.

Willihnganz: And it seems to me like the two primary activities, the train and the fairs, started very close together almost at the same time and they gave this organization a pretty unique visibility which other organizations did not have and which sort of raised the whole level of awareness of these types of things. Would you think that's true?

Goldstein: Oh, absolutely. That's why I feel that the guild really was the organization that brought art awareness to Kentucky.

Reed: The train enabled the arts to go to the people in the rural areas, whereas they didn't have access to it otherwise. So the arts went to them. It was arts education.

Willihnganz: Do you think this organization functioned as a primary channel for artists to find other artists and to basically get into the company of other craftspeople?

Reed: Enormously. The networking.

Goldstein: Yea, I think that was one of the key benefits of an artist becoming a member of the organization. It gave you the opportunity to develop friendships, to develop support, to learn from other artists. Whatever you needed as an artist, your fellow artisans were there to provide that to direct you in terms of the development of your artistic education and marketing. I think in every aspect you found a place where you had support, you know, readily available.

Willihnganz: A couple people talked about this being a family, did you sort of have that feeling when you were at this at various points involved with this organization?

Reed: I have a craft family. These are people I know strictly through the crafts, through doing shows. If I have questions regarding arts or crafts, these are the people I call upon. You spend many, many hours in a both next to another person at a fair or show, you get to know them quite well, very intimately. A lot of times they may still not know their last name, but you know everything about them and they become your craft family and you have something in common with them because you're both trying to do the same thing and that is to express yourself as an artist and be able to live off of that. Make that your livelihood, as your income.

Willihnganz: Dan said something kind of interesting, he said "I've called a lot of members of the Guild and learned an enormous amount from them," he said, "I've never spoken to one of them, who wasn't willing to talk to me. I call up anybody, they're never too busy." And that's part of the reason he feels so much a part of the organization.

Reed: It's a family. It's a bonding.

Willihnganz: What do you think we should show in this documentary? What should we try to focus on? Should we focus on just the activities that they've done? The train, the fairs and education? Or should we look at the individual artist who've been involved with it?

Goldstein: I think everything. I really do. All of that. I think although the focus is on the history of the organization, by adding in information about the artists and showing, you know, work, it really motivates others to become an artist and gives them the realization that there are people out there who do succeed through their artwork and providing a living and sustenance for themselves. Subsistence? For themselves.

Willihnganz: Yea, it was interesting to me that as much success as Dan has had, he's still working as an upholsterer and plans to keep working until he gets his house paid for.

Goldstein: Which is not that far away. And he was a full time upholsterer and had very good income from that, so he is gradually shifting over. The frightening thing to do, because one is very insecure in terms of approaching that, not knowing how successful they're going to be. What they're giving up, but every time he takes a step in that direction, I think he finds himself much more successful than he expected. It's just amazing, the more he does, the more artists he meets, the more clients he develops and I believe that this sales of his work, the public knowledge and appreciation of it just increased tremendously.

Willihnganz: Yea, it looks to me like that is something that the Guild has been able to provide its members, just a sort of awareness that there is a transition that you make and the steps that you go through are logical and other people have done that. I think for a lot of people, getting into actually producing artwork as a means of living is like jumping off a cliff and they're very hesitant . . . I would be very hesitant to try and make my way as a furniture maker and I've made a fair amount of furniture, but that would be an enormous leap for me.

Goldstein: Yea. One of the things I've found is by becoming part of an organization and having the opportunity to sell your work, exhibit you work. As Mary had mentioned, even prior to her being a member, she was a guest artist. It really firmly plants you psychologically into developing an identity as an artist. It really allows for that, otherwise one may think of what you're doing as a hobby and just not be able to develop the courage to proceed in establishing yourself with the intent of doing it professionally.

Willihnganz: What do you think a good, well-made documentary could potentially do for the state of Kentucky? What would it add?

Goldstein: It would add . . . Well, first of all, well there are two things. I think without it we wouldn't have any history or our development and without the history of the early stages of the Guild you really lose the foundation of the reasons for being pertaining to the current organizations that do serve purposes that fit our times and are very successful. So it gives us the history, how we started off and what that development was based on. It also allows us to go out and stimulate interest in the art. I think it really plants a seed and potentially motivates the art and craft market and education in the arts for the future, by exposing school children, the public, university art students to this history. I just think it really boosts the arts, gives it some prestige and weight.

Reed: It gives credibility to an organization that's been around for 46 years. Quality. It's a stamp of approval, it's a strenuous jury process to be accepted into the organization so when you say you're a member of the Kentucky Guild of Artists and Craftsmen and people know that you are of high quality, that anything they purchase from you is going to be some of the best that the state has to offer. A documentary like this is good for future development, resources and securing that to further finance new programs into the 21st century.

Willihnganz: Does Kentucky have unique art forms of crafts work that is unique to our particular area?

Reed: I think area, each state is unique within itself and if you travel around and do a lot of fairs in other states that you notice they're different. We have a lot of Appalachian tradition . . . TAPE CUTS OUT . . . In Kentucky we have a lot of traditional crafts with the Appalachian region that is so prominent. It goes back to the pioneers and the settlers and how they used the raw materials around them. They created things for survival, such as quilts were made of their old worn out clothing and that was for warmth and they made baskets from the branches and bark on the trees to carry their produce in from the gardens. They used bark to weave chair bottoms to sit on. Their toys were made out of wood, carved or corn shucks were turned into dolls. They even used corn shuck flowers in their graveyards and that's how they decorated their headstones. So there's a lot of tradition there. Anyways, I think that you see a lot of these traditional crafts around Kentucky, especially in the rural areas and then in your larger cities, you see a lot more contemporary things and the trends go that way, but every state, every region, kind of has their own characteristics and you see that as you travel around.

Willihnganz: What role do you think that the Kentucky Guild can play in the culture of Kentucky in our future growth?

Goldstein: Well, it can certainly, I would say, go in different directions by continuing its tradition of exposing people to art through fairs and exhibits, it can promote the arts. It can continue to provide the opportunity for artists to work together and network and to support each other in getting out to the public, it can also focus on getting into the school systems and providing children with an education in the arts, both artistic appreciation and technical information.

Reed: Which then is our next generation of purchasers. Give them appreciation of the arts and they become consumers or artists themselves.

Willihnganz: If you had your power to restart the Kentucky Art Train, would you do it?

Goldstein: I would certainly take the time to do a study and find out if there still are communities where the children do not have access to museums and art exhibits. I think it would be very interesting to do that study. I'm not sure what the situation is in the more rural areas of Kentucky. Mary might know.

Reed: We don't have the train depots anymore that we had in the '60s. They shut them all down.

Goldstein: Right. We've have to rebuild the tracks, yes. If that existed, I'm not sure the need, would you say there is a need still to bring art into those specific communities . . .

Reed: Absolutely. Absolutely. Budget cuts, the first things that go are your arts and humanities, even though it is now part of the core curriculum and they're also testing it, but it has been proven that those children who are exposed to arts and humanities in the schools score higher on their ACT and SAT tests. They become problem solvers, critical thinkers, by being exposed to the arts and it's a way to express themselves even in math. There are a lot of programs in the schools if the system . . . if they are a little bit more progressive, there are grants that bring artists in residence into the schools. The Guild can help with that and programs developing those educational programs. I would almost think that a semi-trailer would be a better means of getting art into the rural areas today. We have good road systems and not as many rail systems and also the semi would be a lot more portable and could go directly to the schools as opposed to being parked in a railroad yard or a train depot and then having to bus children to them. It would make it even more effective.

Goldstein: My concern then is the fact that it's needed. That we still need to get those arts there. It's not adequately being done. That's a concern.

Willihnganz: With the Kentucky Guild I just don't know this right off hand, have they ever done anything with KET in terms of classes? They've put a lot of classes for different things on the air.

Goldstein: I'm not directly in partnerships. KET does, you know, frequently interview artists and documentaries of showing the artist and their techniques, but we haven't worked with them, as I said, a partnership one on one in any formally structured setup. It's an idea.

Willihnganz: Has your new president sketched out any new direction that she wants to take the organization?

Goldstein: I believe one of the new directions that I'm understanding she's going in is motivating the involvement of younger people. Developing programs for younger . . . Bring in younger members. Almost a junior league of guild members and that's very important, because one of the things we've noticed being part of the baby boomer generation is that at any given fair over the last few years, you're looking at people who are older and older every year. All of a sudden it's gone from a group of people who were in their 30s and 40s to people in their 50s and 60s, the majority of individuals participating. So it's important that they find younger and new blood to replace us.

Willihnganz: Is your president aware that you're working on this project?

Goldstein: Yes, she is. She is, because I am sending the donations to her. We have a handful of patrons who are Guild members and in addition, one or two individuals who greatly support the arts who feel that it's very important, very meaningful to have a record of the individuals that you met today. People who historically and currently the movers and shakers in the development of the guild and the what I would label the arts movement of Kentucky.

Reed: And we did seek board approval for the project.

Willihnganz: Well, that's good to hear because in my release I did say that basically this is the property of the Guild. I would never use it without your consent or whatever. However I do have use of it and if we ever finish the documentary on it, one of the things I will want to be able to do is show it to people and say, "This is what I did".

Reed: Show the quality of your own work.

Goldstein: You're going to make sure we finish it right?

Willihnganz: Oh, yea.

Goldstein: I wanted to say that this has been a dream of mine for years to do this and I just had a sense although really based on very practical knowledge, having been president and seen there was just no history, no recorded history at certain stages there were, but as with any organization the pendulum swings according to the board leadership and who is available to do what so there were a lot of years with no record and that was becoming more so as time went on. So I felt it was really essential and we're very late in the game in doing this because we've already lost so many key members. Many of them founders and individuals like Homer Ledford. People who guided the younger artists who were now in their 60s, who were so important. So, I feel we're on the tail end, but we're doing it and so what we've done today was just so very important because I feel it was now or never. That we're just going to lose the opportunity.

Reed: When we were reviewing the New Hampshire video, they had music playing in the background, and the thought came up it would be nice to have Homer Ledford's music in the background. Wouldn't that be nice?

Willihnganz: What a wonderful idea. The question is what do you have to do to get the rights to use his music.

Reed: To use it? Well, we could certainly find out.

Willihnganz: Yep, you could. It's not that difficult.

Reed: And he was a charter member and it would be a neat thing to do.

Willihnganz: I use a variety of sources of music for the Mitchum Hall program. For the main theme that opens, I actually paid $400 to use two and half minutes out of that, which will put your back, but that's what you have to do. Other pieces I got contributed from a composer at U of L and some other pieces I paid for online. Stockmusic.net sells you . . . for $30 you can buy a six minute song.

Goldstein: I wouldn't hesitate to ask them to donate to use them . . .

Reed: As long as it's credited.

Goldstein: I mean he was such a key figure in the Guild and it's honoring him and in fact we had originally planned on interviewing him.

Willihnganz: Yea, it's too bad we didn't.

Goldstein: He was on the list, but we didn't get to it a year or so ago.

Willihnganz: Are there other interviews with Homer that are around that have been done? I can't believe he wasn't . . .

Goldstein: Sure. I would think that there would have been many . . . I didn't watch but, but I caught glimpses of things that were on TV about him, but I would think that there are.

Reed: Right now there is an exhibit at the Artisan Center in Berea and Homer is kind of the focus of it. The theme is luthiers, which are people who make stringed instruments and that is also one of the main things of the Kentucky Folk Life Festival, which will be in Frankfort in September . . . I think it's the third weekend in September. And so that exhibit will move from Berea to Frankfort just for that purpose and I'm real sure that there are interviews with Homer in the archives at the Kentucky History Center already and he would have signed a release on those when those were done. That would have been through the Kentucky Folklife Program. I could check on that and see.

Willihnganz: When we get further along with it I'll look up some resources and see what else we can find.

Reed: They have this silhouette of Homer that's a life-size cutout when you walk into the artisan center and its like, "Homer!" And then you realize it's cardboard. It's so lifelike.

Willihnganz: Interesting. Anything else you think we should talk about?

Goldstein: No. I mean, I don't know off the top of my head. I originally had contacted Mary regarding this project because of her connection with the Kentucky Arts Council and she offered to give me advice . . .

Reed: Anytime.

Goldstein: And now, fortunately she's my other half. Truly a partner in this. Les Pross probably did more work than anyone believe it or not. He did the research to find out who was alive and who was dead and gosh, it took a lot of work. And where we could find images. He did a lot of work just getting all the information together. A lot of research.

Reed: What type of time schedule do you see this as a completion?

Willihnganz: Basically we need to finish this phase of it and see what we've got.

Goldstein: Can we assume that will be at the end of September?

Willihnganz: Yea, we can. And then we need to look at funding it for a full production. Then we need to think in terms of how long it's going to take and realistically speaking it's going to be close to a year.

Goldstein: I would be delighted if we could do it that quickly.

Reed: I know the editing was tremendous.

Willihnganz: It's going to be many, many hours and it's going to be a lot of research.

Goldstein: Oh, you were saying a year in terms of editing and working, or in terms of getting the funding.

Willihnganz: Well, the funding is another issue altogether, I'm thinking a year from the time we get the funding.

Goldstein: Oh, that's why I said I'd be thrilled if we have $30,000 in hand in a year.

Willihnganz: You know, the nice thing about having these is you can keep it for 10 years if it takes you that long to get the funding and still get this done. ( ) But you may get some of these will carry the project forward.

Goldstein: Do you think that it's realistic to think we could get the funding within a year? And then after a year goes . . .

Willihnganz: I do. And I think you know, it's possible you could get it in 6 months. It depends a certain amount on luck and a certain amount on energy. How much you're willing to devote to it. How much time do you put into actually researching the number of funding sources there are and approaching them. And frankly, how aggressive you are. The more you're willing to pick up that phone and start talking to people and find out what you need to know and recruit them, the sooner you're going to raise the money. That's the bottom line. I mean, I think it's a good cause, I think a lot of people will want to support this cause for a lot of good reasons.

Goldstein: And if I can recall, you have a list of organizations to recommend to call?

Willihnganz: I have a partial list. It's not an exceptionally good list. A professional fundraiser would be a better person to talk to or somebody who is . . . I'm thinking I have a good friend who works for a foundation, who would be good people to talk to in terms of where I could get more of that information. There is a directory of Kentucky foundations, but it costs a bunch of money. A couple hundred dollars to get your hands on it and I think you can actually find some of this online. I expect if you have a good librarian, they can look up some of this. Frankly, I went downtown and talked with the research people at the research desk at the Louisville Public Library and I was not terribly impressed. The information sources they were able to point me toward were not that good. A lot of old information.

Goldstein: Would someone at the Kentucky Arts Council possibly LexArts be good at providing advice on . . . Or being a good resource beyond the arts council.

Reed: Marie had some ideas on fund sources. When you look at the back of that New Hampshire you see who has helped sponsor that production. I was very impressed. So she had a few ideas that she came up with so it might be that even Arturo, you know, people, have an online discussion with them and see who's got who up their sleeves and want to ask them. Putting together a proposal first. Which you've sort of done.

Goldstein: Thank you. I'm not sure what I've done. I mean I don't know . . .

Reed: The report that you wrote to the board.

Willihnganz: Have I seen this report that you're speaking of to the board?

Reed: I don't know. It's kind of a statement, a summary of the project.

Willihnganz: Maybe you did send that to me.

Goldstein: I probably did. I sent it to every single artist so they could better understand what we were doing.

Willihnganz: Yea, I think you might have sent me this, at this point I have a file of emails and I was kind of shocked to realized it's thirty pages long. And it's growing daily, which isn't bad necessarily. I think we're done recording.