A. Taylor: Would you please tell us your full name, including your maiden name.
M. Garr: Margaret Lee Dismeaux Garr.
J. Blythe: And Dismeaux is spelled?
M. Garr: DISMEAUX. It’s,
1:00uh, most people pronounce it as Dismeaux (Dis-mo); it’s French.A. Taylor: And when and where were you born in Garrard County?
M. Garr: Uh, it’s a little settlement called St. James.
A. Taylor: And could you tell us your birthdate?
M. Garr: March 22, 1931.
A. Taylor: Would you tell us about your family, for example your parents, your
grandparents, your brothers, and sisters?M. Garr: . . . My father’s name was Eugene Dismeaux. My mother’s name was Mattie
Hawkins Dismeaux. 2:00J. Blythe: Would you spell that for us please?M. Garr: Hawkins? HAWKINS.
J. Blythe: Thank you.
A. Taylor: Can you describe things your family did, activities?
M. Garr: Ah, well, my mother was a cook when I was growing up. She cooked at
restaurants. And then in her later years, she became a companion to a lady by the name of Mrs. W.P. Scott. And she lived with her for 35 years before she {her mother] passed.A. Taylor: And your father?
M. Garr: My father was,
3:00ah, in his early years, he was a farmer. And in his later years he was a guide on Herrington Lake.A. Taylor: And did you have brothers and sisters?
M. Garr: I had, uh, let me see, three brothers and one sister. I had to stop and
think (she laughs).J. Blythe: There were six of you all?
M. Garr: Five.
J. Blythe: Oh, that’s right five, sorry.
A. Taylor: So how did you interact with your brothers and sisters?
M. Garr: We all got along good because we had stern parents.
4:00J. Blythe: If you all aren’t familiar with that word “stern”, it means strict.M. Garr: What you was told to do, you did it and you didn’t back-talk, like the
younger generation, the majority of them. If we was told to get up and go out and do something, we said “yes ma’am”, and we got up and went out and did it. And that was it! And we weren’t allowed to fight amongst ourselves (silence). 5:00I don’t know whether you want to hear this or not, but I’ll say if you don’t you can cut it out. When we was growing up, it wasn’t “time-out” or you can’t go this place, or you can’t go that place, you got spanked. And that was the bottom line. I think you can contribute to that can’t you (pointing to J. Blythe:)?J. Blythe: I know a little bit to that. There wasn’t “time-out”. . . .and you
didn’t talk back. And I did get grounded a few. when I was older.M. Garr: Yeah, we got grounded back then, but uh, and we was always taught to
say, “yes ma’am” and “no ma’am”, not yes and no, or yea or nay.J. Blythe: And we called anyone older than us, “Miss”, Mister, or Aunt. That was
our tradition.M. Garr: Uncle. .
S. Roberts: Mrs. Garr, can tell us about more about your childhood like
6:00specific memories about Christmas, maybe Easter?M. Garr: Yes, uh, my parents. . .we celebrated our birthdays like most children.
We didn’t have as much, but we always had cookies or either a cake, a birthday cake. And we always had the neighbor kids to come in and there wasn’t that many gifts or anything. But we just did that. And for Easter, we had a gentleman who had never been married that lived in the neighborhood. And he always dyed eyes and hid ‘em and always had little figurines of rabbits and things that he gave to each one of the kids. And sometimes there would be 25 or 30 kids in the neighborhood. And candy, you know, egg candy and stuff. And ah, that’s the way we celebrated Easter. And then for Christmas, we always, 7:00up until I guess I was 9 years old, we always looked forward for Santa Clause to come. And ah, Mother and Daddy would always go out on Christmas Eve. And ah, we would stay at home. I always liked to play tricks on everybody. So, our cousin, uh, he lived with us (I’ll show you a picture of him), anyhow, he played Santa Clause. And ah, we always wondered how Santa Clause got in the house because we had a stove to heat by and we had no fireplaces and they always. . ., the tradition was to bring Santa Clause come down the chimney. So, Mother and them left and he went upstairs and went to bed and I locked the front door, so Santa Clause didn’t get in (she chuckles). And the next morning I got up and I didn’t have anything under the Christmas tree. So that’s 8:00when I found out that there was no Santa Clause. But otherwise, we always celebrated the tradition, dinner. We’d always go to one of our grandparents’ for dinner and all our cousins and things would be there and everything. We would get a toy and some clothes and that would, you know, be it. It’s not like the Christmas’ now where everything is so commercial.J. Blythe: Miss Margaret uh, you mentioned your grandparents, who were your grandparents?
M. Garr: Uh, Lillie McMurtry. And (she spelled it –McMURTRY).
9:00. .Abraham McMurtry, was her husband, but that was our step-grandfather and I’ll tell you about our grandfather.J. Blythe: Was her name spelled “Lilly or Lillie?” And Mr. Abraham was your step-grandfather.
M. Garr: “--ie”. And my grandfather was George Dismeaux. And he was uh, French,
Cajun. He was from Louisiana.J. Blythe: Did you ever go there?
M. Garr: I’ve been to Louisiana, and I have been in the Cajun part of it, but I
was grown. Because he got killed when my father was little and that’s how come Papa, Mama remarried because she had two or three children.J. Blythe: So, you went to Louisiana as an adult? Ok, great.
10:00M. Garr: I guess it was back in the ‘60s and I did go to the Cajun part of, you know, of Louisiana and we went to New Orleans, but we went over into the Cajun, you know, part of it and toured it and it was very interesting.J. Blythe: Thank you for sharing that.
S. Roberts: You mentioned that your grandparents would cook dinner on Christmas,
what kind of food would they make?M. Garr: Well, we had just about what we have now. We had turkey, dressing,
country ham. They killed, they raised all their animals, you know, the meat that we ate from the animals, hogs, 11:00cows, you know beef, and then we raised chickens, ducks, and geese. And all the vegetables, we had gardens. And our parents canned the food. The only thing I can remember when I was growing up until I was a teenager, everything was raised on the farm and our parents prepared it, preserved it, so that we could have it (food) during the winter and summer. Mother would can anywhere from to 500 to 1000 jars of food. They even cold-packed their meat before we got refrigerators and deep freezers. 12:00And then they kept chickens and ducks and turkeys and things out on the farm. And they would just go out there and pick ‘em up, put ‘em up and clean ‘em out, what I mean, they would eat anything, and they would just put ‘em in a pin and then only feed them just corn. Then, they would kill ‘em and pick ‘em (remove the feathers).S. Roberts: So, did you help your mom in the kitchen or your father on the farm?
M. Garr: Well, when I came along, my father wasn’t farming. He was working on
the Lake as a guide for fishermen. People would come from everywhere, New York, Virginia, West Virginia, California, and he would fish with them on the lake (Herrington). He fished here in Kentucky, during eleven months out of the year. And the month of May, they used to close the Lake here and then he would go to Tennessee and work the month of May. Because they would let the fish spawn to make. , you know, to let them lay eggs to keep the Lake stocked. But now-a-days, they don’t close it. But now-a-days, they just come in and stock the Lake when they get low on fish.S. Roberts: Can you remember anything specific about your mom,
13:00how she dressed?M. Garr: Yeah, well, ‘cause I’m the baby of the family and when I came along,
she dressed normal like we dress, you know, she didn’t wear clothes down to her ankles or anything. She wore clothes down around the knee, 3 or 4 inches below the knee, just ordinary clothes.J. Blythe: Did she sew or make her own clothes?
M. Garr: No, she sewed, but she didn’t make our clothes. My grandmother had a
lady that uh, 14:00her mother had a neighbor, and she made all our little dresses and things for summer. They called them bloomers that they wore under, . . . .little penne-folds and things and little pants. . . .little outfits, they were sleeveless. I ‘ve got a picture I’ll show it to you when I was little. They come down to here and they were called cullocks, but they were all made in one little outfit. Grandma, uh, they used to buy chicken feed and flour and stuff in cloth sacks, 50# and 100# bags, and ah, she (her Grandma) would bleach those and save ‘em until, and then later on in the years, they had ones that had designs in ‘em, and she would wash those, and put ‘em up, and take them to this lady and she would go to the 5 and dime store 15:00and buy rick-rack, and lace, and stuff. And she would put all of that on them. And that’s what we wore. Our little bloomers had ruffles around the bottom of them and everything. . . .And then . . .in the wintertime, we wore long underwear with cotton stockings. You (pointing to J. Blythe:) had, I don’t think you had them (bloomers). . .J. Blythe:We had leggings.
M. Garr: Yes, Leggings or snuggies. Uh huh. Well, we wore the long underwear in
the wintertime with the cotton stockings, the brown cotton stockings, and brown shoes, I mean shoes, they come up to the ankles and laced up. We didn’t wear little sandals and all of that stuff. And 16:00then on Sundays, Mother, we would have white stockings and white shoes. And then, . . .she would dress us to take us to church and out-of-state and places, and ah, we had black satin bloomers that we wore under our clothes.S. Roberts: You mentioned earlier that you were born in 1931, do you recall
anything about the Depression?M. Garr: No, ‘cause I guess, I was about. . . and I think the Depression was in
the late 30’s, wasn’t it?J. Blythe: It was during the late twenties and thirties; kind of moving through
the decade of the ‘30s.M. Garr: The only thing that I remember when they had the bad flood in
Louisville, ah, that was in 1937 or 1938. . .; it 17:00was one of those years. And my father being a guide on the Lake, the man that he worked for, Ed Lane was his name, they took boats and motors down there and run the lake, the flood waters, to get the people out of the flood waters. And the only communication we had with him was, they didn’t have a lot of telephones back then, was through the radio. They would tell how they were doing and everything, and they would put it on the radio, and you would listen to that station, and you would get the news. We didn’t talk to him, or Mother didn’t 18:00have any, you know, communication with him. But we’d always sit, I think it (the radio news) came on at 8 o’clock at night, and we would hear, the man, the newscaster would come on and say, they’d call ‘em by names and say everybody was, you know, doing ok and had no tragedies or nothing. {Mrs. Garr is referring to the flooded areas of Louisville}.S. Roberts: You mentioned that your dad would travel to Louisville and Tennessee
for work, and . . .M. Garr: Well, he just went down to Louisville during the bad flood during the
‘30s. But he went to Tennessee, to LaFollette, TN, and fished on the lake down there for a man that he had known and who moved down there and opened up a boat dock. He went down there and fished for the month of May as a guide.S. Roberts: You also said that you went to Louisiana in the ‘60s, do you recall
any other family members leaving Garrard County?M. Garr: Well, my brothers was all in the service. Uh, my sister married and
moved to Michigan in ’50, no, it was in the late ‘40s. And then my baby brother moved to Michigan in ‘40, the ‘40s. 19:00And then my two older brothers they lived; they stayed in Kentucky.S. Roberts: Were your brothers that were in the service drafted?
M. Garr: Uh, two of, the older two was drafted and the baby boy, he just
volunteered and went in. And I have pictures of them in their uniforms and things. And then in the 40s before the War ended, I went to ah, Boston, Massachusetts, and went to school for a couple of years. 20:00S. Roberts: Do you remember the name of that school?M. Garr: Oh Lord, no, no, no. All I know is that it was in Roxbury,
Massachusetts. And I cannot remember the name of that school for the love of money.J. Blythe: What did you study?
M. Garr: I was in the, I think the eighth grade while I was up there, no, maybe,
it was the seventh and eighth grade and then when I came back, I went into high school at Mason or the Lancaster Colored High School because it hadn’t been changed to Mason then.J. Blythe: So, you went to the Lancaster Colored School. And when did you
graduate from there?M. Garr:’49 or ’48. Well,
21:00wait a minute. I did not graduate with my class ‘cause I got married. And then I went back to school and got my GED in Danville at the Danville High School. That’s where I studied at because I left in my 11th year. I thought I was a woman and I wanted to get married.S. Roberts: Do you remember what year you got married?
M. Garr: Um hum, 40?. . . .wait a minute, ’48, November 10, 1948.
J. Blythe: How long were you married before Mr. Monroe died?
M. Garr: 29 ½ years.
J. Blythe: And how many children?
M. Garr: Four.
J. Blythe: Now, uh, you were talking about your brothers
22:00in the military. Were they all in the Army?M. Garr: Um hum.
J. Blythe: And where did they serve, uh, in Europe, here in the U.S.?
M. Garr: Gillis served in, he went overseas, he was in France and W.C. was in
Japan. And he was in the Vietnam War and the Korean War. He was in there for nine years, W.C., William.J. Blythe: Vietnam and Korea?
M. Garr: Or maybe it was the Korean War because the Vietnam
23:00War was--came later. Yes, it was World War II and Korea. Because he was in there for nine years. Gillis was in there for two or four years. And then my baby brother James, he was only in there for, volunteered for two years. And he got hurt. He was inducted in the military in Michigan and then they transferred him back to Kentucky, which was very odd. And he stayed in Ft. Knox. And they was out playing ball one day and he got hit in the back, and one of his lungs collapsed. 24:00So, they kept him in the military until his time was up, but he never left Ft. Knox.S. Roberts: You said earlier that you went to school in Boston, Massachusetts
for the seventh and eighth grades, before that do you remember what elementary school that you went to?M. Garr: White Oak. I went there from the first grade to the third grade. And
then I went to Lancaster until I quit school.S. Roberts: Obviously you were very young whenever you went to White Oak, do you
remember anything about that school?M. Garr: Well, it was a little one-room school, and we lived four miles from the
school. And the older kids walked to school, my older brothers and things walked to school. And the man that taught us, he had a car, and he took the back seat out of it, and he . .they didn’t have busses and things, and he would pile up all the little kids in there to get to the school. And then my grandmother would come and pick us up in the afternoon. And when the weather was bad, we didn’t have school. 25:00And we only went to school seven months a year.J. Blythe: And who was the teacher, do you remember?
M. Garr: William Smith. Everybody called him Bill Smith. And he was one of the
principals there at Mason, no, it wasn’t Mason then, it was just the Lancaster Colored School because that school (Mason) was built in what 1939…?J. Blythe: About ’38 or ’39 something like that.
M. Garr: And I think Carl Burnside was the first principals and then he left and
went to Monticello and 26:00became the principal down there.J. Blythe: And Mr. Burnside was the principal at. . .?
M. Garr: When they built the stone school up there in Mason Estates, Mason
School. And I have a picture of him somewhere.J. Blythe: And Mr. Burnside and his family lived in Bryantsville?
M. Garr: Yes, Um hum.
J. Blythe: I thought I remembered that. . .I vaguely remember him.
M. Garr: See uh, his mother’s name was Mahalia, and his sister was Mattie Mae
and remember she married Mr. Lest Peters, Billy Peters’ mother?J. Blythe: Yes, yes.
M. Garr: And they were distant cousins of my grandmother, grandparents.
J. Blythe: In our research, uh, we have found the name
27:00of a school, and it would have been an elementary school, by the name of Coomer. Do you know anything about the school?M. Garr: I had to have been in White Oak because several Coomers lived in that
area. I know Coomers, several Coomers. But I have talked to the Coomers and with several of the Coomer offspring, but none of them can’t remember it. I talked with several of them, and they couldn’t remember. . . .Unless the little school that I went to was called that, but when I was there, we just called it was the White Oak Elementary.J. Blythe: But it might have been associated with White Oak? Ok. Well, thank you
for at least trying to help us do a little of extra research for us. 28:00S. Roberts: There is a school, a little building that is still standing down there, is that the one-school?M. Garr: No, Mr. Ison, Bill Ison bought the school and made a dwelling out of it
and then it finally burned down.J. Blythe: So, there’s nothing standing there?
M. Garr: No, there’s nothing standing there now.
J. Blythe: Was there ever any other type of facilities in St. James or White Oak
or Bryantsville, like lodge buildings or a church?M. Garr: Ok, in White Oak there was a Methodist Church and a Baptist church.
J. Blythe: Do you know the names of the churches?
M. Garr: Galilee Baptist Church and the Methodist Church was A.M.E.
29:00(African Methodist Episcopal) Methodist. And a Benevolent Lodge, White Oak Benevolent Lodge.J. Blythe: Now which of the churches did George Tarrence and his people belong to?
M. Garr: The Baptist.
J. Blythe: The Baptist, because I remember visiting the church, and it sat
right. . .M. Garr: The church sat right by the side of the road and the Lodge Building sat
over. . .it was right across the road from the church.J. Blythe: That’s the building, I’ve been trying to remember. . ..it wasn’t a
church, it was a lodge.M. Garr: Yes, it was a lodge, but they used it for a dining room for the church
whenever they had rally days and things.J. Blythe: That clears it up for me. . . .As a child we came down there a lot..
30:00. .M. Garr: Yeah, your mother and daddy and grandmother and granddaddy. .
J. Blythe: I remember coming there, . . . . but I couldn’t remember what the
building was. Thank you.J. Blythe: Miss Margaret, could you tell us a little bit about experiencing
segregation, uh, at home and you were in Boston for a while and then describe how you felt a--we transitioned into integration? Could you talk a little bit about that?M. Garr: Ok, down where I lived at was a little settlement called St. James and
we had a Methodist church down there called St. James A.M.E. Church.J. Blythe: And is that the church you attended?
31:00M. Garr: Yes, I joined there when I was nine years old under the pastorate of Rev. Stevenson.J. Blythe: And so, talk a little bit about segregation in your life and then integration?
M. Garr: Ok, well now where we lived at, there was, well, let’s back up. That
area was all black. It belonged to the McMurtry’s and . . . . .the Carrs. Now they owned all down there around the Lake (Herrington) and then as time went on, they sold it off.J. Blythe: And can you estimate about how much land they owned?
M. Garr:
32:00From the top of the hill on the right-hand side coming down, do you know (directed to J. Blythe:) know where the Smiths’ lived? from there and all around to the bridge.J. Blythe: That was a considerable amount of property.
M. Garr: Yes, because my grandfather owned 28 and my parents owned 10 acres,
right there, you know. And there was more. . .It was a large amount.J. Blythe: That was about 30 acres or more.
33:00. .M. Garr: Where the church stood, it was about an acre and something .
J. Blythe: So that area was mostly black and so interaction on the Lake.. . .
M. Garr: Yes, and my mother had a little stand, a sandwich stand, not a
restaurant down there and they served sandwiches and fishing worms and minas and things for the fishermen. And I guess they operated the stand until Jay was a baby until they closed that up.J. Blythe: So, they operated a stand that sold fishing supplies and sandwiches?
M. Garr: Um hum.
J. Blythe: I have heard that your brother was an excellent diver.
M. Garr: Which one?
J. Blythe: W. C.
M. Garr: Yeah, he’s
34:00My father drowned in ’45 in Herrington Lake and W.C. went down and found his body in about 100, about 50 feet of water.J. Blythe: I remember my father talking about him being an excellent swimmer and diver.
M. Garr: All three of my brothers were good swimmers. Unfortunately, my sister
and I never did learn to swim.J. Blythe: So, any particular comments about your thoughts on segregation what
it was like, and then moving into integration? Any comments or thoughts?M. Garr: Well, when I was growing up
35:00in that area , we didn’t know what segregation was; because the people that my father associated was mostly white people, and we were in their house, and they were in our house. But we knew that there was segregation, places we didn’t go, and when we left that little area. . . . we knew our boundary. . separate everything.J. Blythe: . . .separate schools, churches, and so forth? That’s pretty typical
in rural areas . . .they were mixed. . .M. Garr: Yeah, and when I was in Boston, even though the blacks and whites went
to the same schools, but there were places that Blacks could not go, like the big hotels and fancy restaurants and things down in Boston, 36:00but I lived out in a little place called Rocksbury, Massachusetts. But you could go to the beaches and to the theaters and you could sit anywhere in the theater, they weren’t segregated. But like I said, the big hotels and restaurants , the only way that you got in there was that you were an employee.J. Blythe: But they did employ blacks?
M. Garr: Yes, and like the drug stores and soda shops, ice cream shops, the kids
could go there, mixed kids and have, you know, sundaes and milkshakes and things.J. Blythe: That was quite a contrast upon returning to Kentucky. I can imagine
that there was quite a contrast when you returned home.M. Garr: Yes, and the churches were mixed, integrated there in Boston, they had
black churches, and all the churches except the Catholic Church.M. Garr: But you was allowed to attend anything like the government buildings
and all that stuff. 37:00You could go there and not have any problems.J. Blythe: Could you tell us a little about your activities you were involved in
growing up and what you did while in Boston and when you did at White Oak, the usual school activities?M. Garr: The only recreation we had a White Oak was playing baseball. And the
girls always had a place out on the grounds, and we had a playhouse, and we would make mud pies and. . . you remember that don’t you (question directed to J. Blythe:)?J. Blythe: Yes, I do.
M. Garr: And then when we went to Lancaster, you know, things changed.
J. Blythe: And do you recall what you actually did while you were in the seventh
and eighth grades in Boston, what kind of activities were you involved in?M. Garr: We played basketball, nothing
38:00big I mean. They had swimming classes, indoor swimming. Well, twice a week we were compelled that we went to attend a religious class but that wasn’t on campus, you had to leave the school, but you were required to go to a church of your denomination. That was some of the classes that we had to take that was required in the school.J. Blythe: What kind of classes did you take?
M. Garr: Latin, history, just regular classes. French. . .
J. Blythe: What was it like being in a one-room school? Can you tell us a little
bit about the one-room school? 39:00M. Garr: Well, we was put in rows, that the first grade and then it went up to the eighth grade. And we were taught first and then it went all the way up to the eighth grade. . .and when the weather was pretty, when they got through our classes, we had all our classes at one time, we had one teacher that taught all eight the classes, you know, eight grades, when we had completed all our classes, we would go outside for recess. As you got through with your class, we got to go outside to play. . .J. Blythe: Was that recess?
M. Garr: Yes, recess, and we had a pot-bellied stove to keep you warm.
J. Blythe: Was that stove wood-burning, coal-burning?
M. Garr: Wood and coal-burning. The boys would cut
40:00wood in the spring and fall and cut wood and kindling to build the fire with every morning. Then I guess the school board would send the coal you know on the grounds, and we’d have that to burn.J. Blythe: And what about food?
M. Garr: You carried your lunch; the parents would prepare your lunch. And
sometimes the other kids would eat your lunch and you had no lunch. And we was great on swapping.J. Blythe: Trading? I remember that.
M. Garr: Yes.
J. Blythe: And what kind of activities occurred at the school? Were there
activities that involved the parents ?M. Garr: Yeah, some of the parents that could drive and had transportation,
could get to the school. Like on Halloween and 41:00on birthdays, they would bring cupcakes and things and celebrate. And from the elementary to the twelfth grade were included in all the things. And we had the Christmas program.J. Blythe: We were talking with other members in the county who attended
one-room schools and they talked about the teachers would prepare meals, like chili or vegetable soup, meals, just different kinds of activities. Did anything like that happen at White Oak?M. Garr: No, because most of the parents were busy working. We didn’t have
anything like that. If they had transportation, the mothers would bring things if 42:00they had transportation. . . but we never had any meals, just mostly desserts, my mother making cupcakes because she would make about 40 or 50 cupcakes and bring ‘em to the school.S. Roberts: So that was about how many children attended White Oak? 40 or 50?
M. Garr: Oh, no, it wasn’t that many. Because it was just the people in that
area. It was the Smiths, the Williams, McMurtry, and the Dismeauxs. That’s all the kids that was in that neighborhood.J. Blythe: So, you’re talking about less than 30 children?
M. Garr: About 25
43:00children or less, because see the White Oak kids, the Kennedys, the Coomers, the Segars, the Tarrences, they all went there. And every year there was a class going out. . .and then they went into town.J. Blythe: Up into town ?. . .Kennedy’s, Coomers, Tarrence. . .
S. Roberts: After graduating from high school, did any other members of your
family or you continue their education?M. Garr: Ah, no, cause my brothers
44:00when they got of high school, they went into the military; my sister married. And I guess that was it.S. Roberts: Did any of your children go to a college, trade school, or university?
M. Garr: My oldest son, after he graduated from high school, he went to brick
masonry; he took up brick mason.J. Blythe: Now he has been worked in construction work for many years?
M. Garr: Yes, until he hurt his arm and he had to come out of it. And ah, my
daughter went to Eastern with Dr. Blythe. They were classmates, from 45:00. . cause ya’ll went to first grade together.J. Blythe: We went all the way from first grade to college with. . . Jackie and
she is a teacher? . .M. Garr: No. . .Jackie’s not a teacher. She got married and she went to work for
Kroger, and she retired last year. She worked thirty-some, thirty-four years at Kroger. And my, uh, 46:00my middle son, William, he worked at ah. . . Irvine Air Chute, and uh, then he worked for Hoover in Nicolasville. And then he went out on his own as a painter, interior, exterior, and ah, remodeling. And he’s still in that. And now he works for Fayette County Government in Lexington and he’s about to retire from there….and he’s been a minister for 47:0017 years.J. Blythe: And what is his church?
M. Garr: Well, . .when he first went into the ministry, he went to a little
church in Georgetown, a Christian Church at Germantown and stayed there for a year, and then he went to a Christian Church at Seventh Street in Paris and he’s been there ( she is reviewing her notes, items in an envelope). And he’s been there (she’s looking at some of her notes and records). . . .I know he’s been there; this is his 16th or 17th year.J. Blythe:
48:00I’ll ask Allyse to pursue a little more on the church side.A. Taylor: I know you mentioned that you attended the A.M.E. Church and joined
church when you were nine years old, could you describe for us your involvement with your family and you and the place of religion in your family?M. Garr: Well, it was a Methodist Church. And I ah, as I grew older, I became
superintendent of the Sunday School, and taught Sunday School, and I was clerk because it was a small church. And in later years I became the secretary of the church. 49:00A. Taylor: May I ask who the pastor was at that time?M. Garr: Uh, it was Rev. Price Mitchell I think at that time; he’s deceased now.
J. Blythe: And when did St. James Church close? You’ve got your records.
M. Garr: I’m a person that loves history and I love history and all that stuff,
so.. . . Well, it had to be in the ‘50s, no, later than that, because Billy and Tony went to Sunday School, and I taught Sunday School there and Billy and Tony went to Sunday School there.J. Blythe: In the ‘60s?
M. Garr: Yeah, uh huh,
50:00in the ‘60s. Where we had to bring a suit against the church because some people took the property and sold the property and everything. . .this was in court twice, so I can tell you exactly what year. 1979, is the last time, I think, we took it to court. . . .A. Taylor: Could you just explain why you took it to court and give us some background?
M. Garr: In the late 50s was the first time and
51:00the early ‘60s was the first time we took it to court, then again in 1979. . . .Ah, I don’t know whether you all know this or not, but the Methodist church, churches, a group of people out of Washington, controlled them. And then, and they had people called. . I don’t know what you called them . .Presiding Elders. . . appointed for different areas and different states. And any churches in the Methodist . . . .denomination, they thought they owned the property. So 52:00in this thing here (referring to the newspaper articles), this last suit that we had, the property was gave to the (she is searching her papers and notes). . ., I know Levi Dismeaux, and I can’t think of the other lady was, she was a McMurtry, and they were the ones who gave the property to the church and. . .and it was only to be used as a church and 53:00I think that they had a school there at one time. And there was not to be a cemetery there, only the school. So, when the Methodist took it over, they considered that they owned the property. But if the property was ever disbanded, not used for a church or a school, then it went back to the heirs, the Dismeaux and the McMurtrys. But I’m trying to think of what this lady’s name was, this McMurty’s woman. There’s the boundary and the property line. It shows more than one acre of property. 54:00J. Blythe: .. . .I’ll make copies of . . .I’ll make sure that you get everything back. . . .this is very helpful. . . . .M. Garr: And it tells who sold it , and who the suit was brought against. . .ok,
it was Thelma McMurtry. . .and she reads from the document details. . Oct. 3rd, 1885. . . recorded in . . Deed Book 18, page 95 at the Garrard County Courthouse. 55:00J. Blythe: So that goes back really far.M. Garr: And because the McMurtry, they thought they were all dead. . . and they
could sell it, but that wasn’t in the deed. And this was the first suit, and this was the second suit here. .J. Blythe:And we’ll make . . . . (trying to transition back) J. Blythe: What
other kinds of other activities, uh, you’ve talked about resolving that 56:00in a legal situation, what other kinds of things at the church do you recall going on church, activities for youth, conventions, special days?M. Garr: We sent the young folks to different conventions. We had what they call
rally day, basket meeting, once a year and it was held in September and the people come from everywhere, the offsprings who moved out of state came back.A. Taylor: And what took place, food, games, . . .?
M. Garr: Ah, food and we, the kids would go all around the lake and things and
then they would hold church all day long.J. Blythe: Morning service, afternoon service?
M. Garr: Um hum.
57:00J. Blythe: What were some of the church dinners like?M. Garr: Everybody bought what they call a--baskets of food. And they had
everything, from the meat to the dessert! And every family that belonged to that church, just like down at Boones, they brought food would, and to keep the church going, they would sell the dinners, maybe for 50 cents, seventy-five cents, and when they stopped, I think they were selling for about $3.00 a plate. . .and that included your drinks, your meal, desserts, everything.. . .They even had homemade ice cream.J. Blythe: Was there country ham,
58:00corn pudding, fish, . . .?M. Garr: Oh, yes, country ham, fried chicken, baked chicken. Yeah, we had fish
fries to make money and keep the church going. And the church never did have lights, electric, but we had lamps, light, but we still had night meetings.J. Blythe: No electricity?
M. Garr: Right, no electricity. And we had outdoor toilet facilities and things.
J. Blythe: What type of heat did they have?
M. Garr: Wood heat. Each family would provide coal and wood for one month out of
the winter months. And when they baptized, I remember my mother saying when my father was baptized there at the church, and they. 59:00. ., you young ladies wouldn’t know anything about this, but you would (J. Blythe:), in a hog box, where they scalded hogs, to prepared it for baptism, that’s where he was baptized. And then after that, they took them down the old road to where the Lake (Herrington) in the shallow part and baptized them down there. But the Methodist mostly would sprinkle, and they would put a white towel around your shoulder and the pastor would say the baptism thing and they would sprinkle water on your head. Because I was sprinkled until I was, I guess in my 50s before I was really baptized, you immersed, and then I was really baptized.J. Blythe: And where was that done?
M. Garr: In Nicholasville at the Christian Church.
60:00A. Taylor: And you have mentioned families, can you recall specific names of families at the church that attended church regularly?M. Garr: Um hum, the Smiths, the McMurtrys, the Dismeaux, the Burnsides, . .
.and I guess that’s all that I can remember. . . .A. Taylor: And did your parents take you to church?
M. Garr: When I was little, they did, but after I got big enough, when I got
older, they didn’t because we weren’t that far from the church because we weren’t that far from the church, I guess it was like. . . (some estimations and exchange with J. Blythe:). . but it wasn’t that far. 61:00But we had to walk on the highway, but it wasn’t that dangerous as it is now. And everybody looked after everybody’s children. I can remember when we were growing up, if we did something, like if I was like at Janet’s house, if we did something, her parents would correct us, spank us, and then send us home and then tell our parents and then we would get another one.J. Blythe: I remember as a teenager, we would, my parents would take me to Mrs.
Garr’s house to parties. And my parents would visit with other parents . . . . and so, it was really good interrelations with families.M. Garr: I know
62:00you kids won’t remember this, but you remember the Smith family (the comment directed to J. Blythe:), J. Blythe: Yes, ma’am I do.M. Garr: Myrtle, Steve, Mary Jasper, . . .Cora Helen. . . now you may not
remember the older ones. . .J. Blythe: Yes ma’am, I remember Cora Helen. . .
M. Garr: But anyhow, mother had a Halloween party for us and she (her mother)
invited all the kids and thing. And my younger brother was a cut-up. And my mother had long hair, and she had cut her hair off and she had these braids, and my brother, W.C., you know who I’m talking about (talking to J. Blythe:), and he took these braids and pinned them in his hair and dressed up like a, put mother’s dress and hat and everything, and come through the house, And these kids 63:00were very scary; anything would scare ‘em. And he , they run and jumped up and ran and nearly tore the house up. And my mother served sandwiches, punch, and ice cream for the Halloween party, and we grew up eating a lot of olives, loved olives.J. Blythe: Why olives?
M. Garr: I don’t know, when mother would go to the store, she’d buy, the ones
with the pimientos in the center, and then mother did a lot of entertaining with her friends and daddy, in the type of business he was in, he had a lot of people that would come to the house, and she would have to fix, you know, for them, so we had olives. And when these kids came, and naturally when mother put the olives on the plates and when they left, 64:00we was cleaning up and we found all the olives under the chair (she chuckles).J. Blythe: They didn’t eat them.
M. Garr: They didn’t know what they were (she laughs). They said they thought it
was something poison. Anyhow that was a big laugh.A. Taylor: I know we’ve talked about church gatherings; can you remember any
community gatherings at White Oak, Bryantsville, Herrington Lake, anything that brought the community together?M. Garr: No, White Oak had a . . the Baptist Church had a homecoming in
September, and then another church would have another Sunday. You see, there was White Oak, Davistown, and Boones Creek had their rally on the same Sunday. . .J. Blythe: They still do.
M. Garr: And then there was
65:00Saint James and White Oak they was two different Sundays so that they could all congregate together, you know , each church could come to attend the basket meeting.A. Taylor: For people who don’t understand what or. . ..how would you describe
basket meetings or rallies so that they can understand?M. Garr: They would have service, in the morning, and then after morning
service, they would have their dinner, and then . . .they would have the afternoon service. The little ones didn’t have to go inside, . . . ..they would stay outside and play 66:00and uh, at White Oak, they would, you remember the creek down behind the church (question directed to J. Blythe:)? The older kids would go down there and play in the creek, get dirty and wet. And they when they come out their parents were ready to beat ‘em to death. . .(she chuckles) J. Blythe: But they never did (she laughs).M. Garr: No, but you know what I mean. And then as I said, down where we lived
at, our church was up on a hill overlooking the Lake. And our children could stand up there and look at the boats, speedboats, and things. And they could go out and walk across the bridge to get from Garrard County to Mercer County, and that was just about it.A. Taylor: So, you don’t recall any other community gatherings?
M. Garr: They would have fish fries and
67:00the older people would play cards. The parents from White Oak and Burgin would come and the parents would play cards. They’d bring their kids, and the kids would get to ah, play together. And if the kids got sleepy, they’d take ‘em into a room and. . . and they’d sleep until the parents got ready to break their party up and leave.J. Blythe: There wasn’t in our neighborhood, there wasn’t baby-sitting. . . .you
grew up around children your own age, but also with older persons, grandparents, aunts, uncles, . . .it’s what we call inter-generational. 68:00M. Garr: Um hum. And when my kids was growing up, I don’t never remember, well, yeah, when I worked in the summer, the Smith kids would come and baby-sit for me for two or three hours or so. I remember, and then my mother came and stayed with them or my sister-in-law that lived next door would keep ‘em, or they would go and visit their grandparents. My mother’s mother. . .they didn’t like their daddy’s mother. . .they had a good grandparent. . . and one was mean. . .so the one who lived next door, . ..but the grandma Ophelia Bowman that lived in Nicholasville. . .. .they liked to go there, but the grandmother who lived next door, they had to work . . .but 69:00at Grandma Ophelia, they could go out and play. . .But over next door they had to work. . . that’s the reason they called her the bad, the mean grandmother. . . (paraphrased a bit).J. Blythe: You mentioned work, what kind of work, outside of the home, besides
raising your kids, have you done?M. Garr: Well, when my kids were small, I used to take care of,
70:00to clean a hotel; I used to work at the camps. And I worked for this particular family, and I used to take care of when the people would move out, leave the camp, then I would go in and clean them. That wasn’t the whole day, just for a few hours a day.J. Blythe: Just a few hours a day.
M. Garr: And then I, after that, when I was after 65, I went into Lancaster and
worked for an attorney, David K. Layton, and worked for him as a receptionist. I worked four or five years. And then in-between that, I was a companion to Mrs. W.P. Scott there in Lancaster. 71:00That’s the lady my mother worked for thirty-five years, and I stayed with her for ten years.J. Blythe: That was on Danville Street?
M. Garr: Um hum.
J. Blythe: Now I also remember that uh, your husband, Mr. Monroe, worked in the
insurance business, and he did other things. Can you describe a little bit about his work?M. Garr: When we first married, he had just gotten out. . .he went to, ah,
mortician school in Louisville, Kentucky. He stayed there during the week and came home on weekends. And 72:00he got his embalming and funeral directing license in the ‘50s. He went to school in ’49 and graduated in ’50. And he worked in Danville with Smith-Jackson Funeral Home in Danville and did his apprenticeship there. And he did that. And then we moved to Petersburg, Virginia and he worked for a Mr. Jackson there in his funeral home. And that was in the ‘50s. Then we moved back to Kentucky in the late 50s and then he went to work for the Brandenburg’s as 73:00a waiter. And then he worked at the restaurants down at Herrington Lake as a waiter. Then he went to Avon Depot and worked there for two years. Then he left there and went., and then he went to the . . .oh, there in Lexington, the Veterans’ Hospital, and he worked there, he went back to school, and became a male nurse. And he got sick, he got diabetes and everything, 74:00so he had to go off the floor; he couldn’t work a full shift because he worked a swing shift. Then he went back to school, the V.A. sent him back, and he became an EKG Technician and that’s what he was doing when he retired there at the Veteran’s Hospital; he worked out on Leestown and there on Cooper Drive in Lexington.J. Blythe: Did he work part-time ever with insurance. . .with Mammoth?
M. Garr: Oh, yes, he worked full-time for Mammoth Insurance, with your Daddy. .
.don’t you remember we used to go on them picnics?J. Blythe: Yes. . ..I couldn’t remember how long. . .
M. Garr: He worked 18 years there
75:00with Mammoth. He worked the night shift at the V. A. Hospital and then he worked at the Mammoth Insurance in the day with insurance. Well, they had debits, and he worked his debit in two days. He went to Maysville, Mayslick; he had part of Lexington, Nicholasville, part of Wilmore. . .J. Blythe: I couldn’t remember his debit, but I knew he worked with Daddy.
M. Garr: Um hum. He had the part of Prall Town in Lexington. Now all that’s been
tore down and UK owns it.J. Blythe: UK and Rupp Arena.
76:00M. Garr: Um hum.A. Taylor: What are some of the things that your family owned that consider of value?
M. Garr: Well, they owned property and I’m still living there.
J. Blythe: And I believe you say you mow your lawn?
M. Garr: She laughs, “ Yeah. It’s ten acres and I mow four acres every week.” J.
Blythe: Every week.M. Garr: Um hum. I mow on Wednesdays and Thursdays if the weather is
permissible. Because I go the beauty shop on Fridays, and I do not--do not cut any grass on Fridays or Mondays.J. Blythe: What other kinds of things do you value?
M. Garr: I babysit,
77:00go help with the great-grandchildren. And then after my husband passed, I stayed with my daughter for five years and baby-sat the kids , their children, which was my grandchildren for five years. My husband passed when I was 45 and I stayed with my daughter and baby-sat the grandchildren for five years, and that was foreign back then. And I told then when I got 50 that I was going home, back to the Lake and live and travel and that’s what I did.J. Blythe: And where have you traveled?
M. Garr: Well, in the United States, I ‘ve been in every state except seven.
78:00I haven’t been to Seattle, North Dakota, South Dakota, Ioway, Idaho, Wyoming, and what was the other one and . .?J. Blythe: Oregon?
M. Garr: Oregon, now those are the seven I’ve not been to, but I’ve been in all
the others.J. Blythe: How about outside the United States?
M. Garr: Well, Canada, I’ve been to Canada; to Jamaica. I’ve been to Cozumel and
Belize, and I guess that’s it.J. Blythe: And I know you’ve been involved in volunteer work. Could you tell us
a little about your volunteer work, 79:00not just in Garrard County, but in Nicholasville and Lexington, and other places?M. Garr: Um hum. I ah, I’m still involved with organization called the “Special
Event”. There are about eight of us that belong to that. That’s in Jessamine County and we do things there. And I help with Habitat there in Garrard County. And I was in, belonged to the Homemakers. I’ve been involved at the local/club level, the county level, and the state level, I’ve been an officer.J. Blythe: An officer? What was the name of the Homemaker Club?
80:00M. Garr: Boones Creek in Garrard County and the Town and Country in Jessamine County.J. Blythe: Boones Creek and Town and Country.
M. Garr: Um hum Boones Creek was in Garrard County and Town and Country was in
Jessamine County.J. Blythe: Do you know when the Boones Creek Club disbanded? Was it in the 50s
or 60s. . . I don’t remember. . .M. Garr:. . .The early part of ’80. . . .And how I got involved in Nicholasville
in the homemakers was my cousin, I buried her yesterday, she and I just. . Sally Mae. . .her husband had told her, her eyesight was not good, and he didn’t 81:00want her driving at night. So, she and I went to church together and she said ’Mag’, they call me Mag, ‘ can come and take me and Mrs. Case to homemakers.’ And I said sure when I’m not busy, and she said would you like to join, and I said no because I don’t want to get back into the homemakers. So, they paid my dues for a year, and I had to go every month. So, we went to Jabez to Craft Camp, and we went to Carlisle to Craft Camp once a year; that was before they built Jabez.J. Blythe: Now you do lots of different crafts, tell us about the types of
crafts that you do.M. Garr: Well, you name it and I do it.
J. Blythe: Tell us what types of crafts.
M. Garr: I crochet, I knit, I, ah,
82:00I paint, I do ceramics and I sketch paintings and watercolors. I’d love to get into oil, but I haven’t had time to do that. And I will do a little woodwork.J. Blythe: What do you remember from the Boones Creek Homemakers? What were some
of the activities and who were some of the people in it?M. Garr: Mrs. , ah, Dunn, what was Arthur’s mothers name?
J. Blythe: Annie Kay.
M. Garr: Um hum. And your mother, Margaret, Anna Margaret Burdette. Uh,
83:00Miss Fannie Burdette, Miss Lettie Mae Peters, Mary Dunn; ah, Miss Odessa, your grandmother; your Aunt Willa Mae Ball. Let’s see, Emma Eird, Ida Eird. .J. Blythe: They were from what was the community.
M. Garr: Moreland. . . . Belle Kaufman, J. Blythe: She was from Moreland also,
and that is in what county?M. Garr: Lincoln County.
J. Blythe: Lincoln County. . . .
M. Garr: And uh, . . .the Jackson lady, Rosetta
84:00Turner, . . .J. Blythe: She was from Danville?
M. Garr: No, she was from Garrard County, she was married to Oscar Jackson from Lancaster.
J. Blythe: . . .there was another lady from Danville. . .besides Aunt Mae M.
Garr: Ah, . . .Marzie Durr, and ah, Jessie Frye.J. Blythe: They were all out of Danville.
M. Garr: Um hum. Now is there anybody else?
J. Blythe: What kinds of things do you recall from the homemakers?
M. Garr: We did canning, we made metal trays, etching on the metal, and we did
that at your mother’s house.J. Blythe: I still have the trays.
M. Garr: I still have mine, too. Then we did
85:00just all kinds of , well, quilted, we made quilts, we’d piece quilts, and we’d go from house to house and do that. And we taught, we had a lesson from the University of Kentucky so we could teach canning, arts, family living. . .I was just looking at this envelope. This is from the University of Kentucky from the Nicholasville , when I was in the Homemakers at Nicholasville.J. Blythe: You mentioned that you were an officer, what offices did you hold in
the Homemakers?M. Garr: I was president, secretary of the local club, the Boones Creek Club.
Then I went to the county, I was 86:00president, vice-president, and secretary. And on the state level, I was clothing and textile.J. Blythe: I remember that Jackie sewed very very well. I remember that she
sewed even in college. Does she still sew?M. Garr: After she married and the girls come along, you know at that age,
everything had to be Designers or store-bought stuff. Now when Lisa was little, and Derrick, I don’t know if you remember Derrick, Monroe’s boy, I remember I made all their little things. I did tailoring work too. I made my husband’s clothes, too because he was 5’2 87:00and he weighed two-hundred and fifteen pounds. He wasn’t fat, but he was just muscle, and he couldn’t go into a store and buy clothes. You had to go to a tailor for fitting and at that time with four kids you didn’t have the money to buy tailoring. So, I went to school and took tailoring and I made his clothes. And I would take the material off of his clothes and make clothes, and he and his granddaddy dressed alike. If I made a sports coat and a pair of slacks for his granddaddy, they dressed alike, then he (Derrick) had a sports coat and a pair of slacks or a suit to match like his granddaddy’s. . .Then I sewed for my daughter until she got in high school, and she taken up home economics and 88:00learned how to sew.J. Blythe: How many grandchildren do you have?
M. Garr: Don’t, don’t ask me that question! It’s about 20 or 30. Well Monroe has
nine, Jackie has. . . (she 89:00is counting names the children), . . . .. . . . . . .then .. .no wait a minute. . ..let’s go back, I’m confused. I have 8 grandchildren and biological great-grandchildren, I have about 26, and then I’ve got some step grandchildren, and all together it’s around 30, I’d say. 90:00J. Blythe: Based on all life experiences, what kind of advice would you offer to younger generations and to future generations?M. Garr: Number one is, go to school and get an education. Number two, become a,
if you’re not a Christian, become a Christian. Number three, carry yourself as a lady or a gentleman in the community. And with those three things you should know who to 91:00associate with and who not to associate with. And I think that would make a gentleman or a lady out of anyone.J. Blythe: What kinds of values, just listening to you, education, you recognize
that being a Christian is important, and how you carry yourself in the community is important. Can you elaborate on how those values came to be? Obviously, some of those values came from home.M. Garr: Yeah, that’s the way we was brought up; that was instilled in us. If we
did something wrong , we were punished for it. And like kids now getting into dope and killing and all of that kind of stuff. When I was growing up, you didn’t hear about all that kind of stuff, about getting into dope, getting killed 92:00or killing somebody. I mean, you heard of it some, but not much in the later years when I was coming up, but. . .the parents knew where their kids were at and what they were doing. For instance, . . . . .now ya’ll (student researchers) don’t know anything about this, but Janet (J. Blythe:) can relate to this. They went to Harrodsburg or Danville or something like that, if we went there, we’d better go, and we stayed. If we told our parents we were going to Nicholasville, then that’s where we better be. If somebody else saw us someplace other than where we were supposed to be, then if we was seen in Lexington and . . then we were punished for it. 93:00But now-a-days, they tell you what they are going to do and not do. Now-a-days, to me, kids are raising their selves, not all kids, but the majority of kids are raising their selves. That’s not in my vocabulary---I’m the mother, the grandparent and you do as I say do. And as long as you live in my household, you’re going to. Now that’s the bottom line.J. Blythe: Is there anything. . . do we have any other questions?
M. Garr: Now I have . . .my oldest son is 62, no 63 years old and , my daughter
will be 60 in September, J. Blythe: the 23rd. 94:00M. Garr: Yes, and yours (J. Blythe:) will be in November, . . . the 18th, J. Blythe: No, the 3rd. ..M. Garr: The 3rd. Yeah, that’s right, and I have a son that’s a minister and
he’s 57 and then the other boy, the baby boy got killed at 19 in an automobile accident. . .J. Blythe: Wayman. . .
M. Garr: Uh, huh. Tony. . . But, ah, as I said, my oldest son is 62 years old
and, in my household, you don’t say yes and no, and you don’t say yea and nay, and you don’t talk back. Somebody said to me that somebody’s child was talking back. I just sat and heard the child talking back and I said, ‘I can’t believe that it, the child, just said what 95:00it did and the parent , one of the parents say, ‘what do you mean’. And I said, “they better not talk back to me. . .I bought you here and I’ll take you out of here. And as I said, I used to have a habit of locking my keys in my car. And my youngest son, he worked in Lexington. And I’d call him and ask him to go to the dealership where I bought my car and get me a set of keys and bring them to me. So, I was at this friend’s house; we were doing crafts. And she said to me, ‘you called your son in Lexington to bring you a set of keys?’ And I said, “ Yes I sure did.” And she said ‘ Well, I know he appreciated that!’ 96:00And he told me he was busy, but as soon as he could he would bring them to me he would . I told him where I was at, I was up on 27.J. Blythe: Can we just do a brief closing here and express our appreciation to
you for the interview?A. Taylor: We just want to thank you for your time and how you have helped us
with our project, and we just thank you.M. Garr: I’m glad to be of service to some young person and I will share these
pictures with you. 97:00