Transcript
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Dr. Blythe 00:01
This oral history is part of a summer undergraduate research project, African
American families and their Heritage in Garrard County, Kentucky. The project is sponsored by Berea College and the Oral History Commission of the Kentucky Historical Society. This is an unrehearsed audio recorded interview with the pastor of First Baptist Church in Lancaster, Reverend David McPherson. The interview is being conducted in the sanctuary of the First Baptist Church. Today's date is Friday, July 23rd, 2010, and the time is 6:30pm. This interview is being conducted by Dr Janice Burdette Blythe, professor at Berea College, and student researchers, Stacey Roberts, and Allyse Taylor.Allyse Taylor 00:51
Could you please tell us your full name.
David McPherson 00:53
David McPherson.
Allyse Taylor 00:57
And when and where were you born in Garrard County?
David McPherson 01:00
Lancaster, Kentucky, August 14, 1960.
Allyse Taylor 01:07
Will you tell us about your family? For example, your parents, grandparents, any
brothers, and sisters?David McPherson 01:14
Father's name is Robert Wilkinson. Mother is Mary Louise McPherson Bradshaw. Got
four brother--three brothers, excuse me. Gary is the oldest, Michael, Ricky, myself and then my father has a daughter, Roberta and a son, Sheldon Burnside. Roberta Wilkinson, Sheldon Burnside.Allyse Taylor 01:48
Would you talk to us about your childhood? What was it like growing up in
Garrard County?David McPherson 01:53
Well, it was pretty fun. Growing up here some--some things, we played baseball
and basketball. We had a--we had like a dirt--behind the house I lived, and it was a dirt, kind of worn out, no grass. And we had a basketball goal that was made of a bicycle rim, with a wooden backboard, and that's where they played basketball. In the lot to the right outside the church here there's--we called that the lot, and we played football and baseball. And the lot across the street, to the right of the lot, there was a lady named Edo (??) Anderson, and it was an automatic out, if you hit the ball toward Edo's direction, because if the ball rolled into her yard, you didn't get the ball back. [laughter] So, it was an automatic out playing baseball to hit the ball that way. And basically, bicycles and there were some apple orchards--some fruit orchards around, and we kind of got in fruit orchards and raided. I guess the bad part, we kind of rated tomato patches every now and then. [laughter] and basically, Garrard County was---we didn't have a lot of parks or anything like that. So, it was pretty much open country. We hunted, fished, worked in tobacco.Stacey Roberts 03:30
Where did you hunt and where did you fish?
David McPherson 03:34
Usually fished down in Boone's Creek, a place called 'the Blue Hole,' and then
down around Mr. Otis Williams' places, which is where we went. My uncle was the son of Otis Williams, and so every weekend we used to go to his dad's house---whom we called 'Pappy Old,' and because he was pretty old back then, and we'd go down there--(??) for minnows and play. And most of the time, the older guys, the uncles, they got us the (??) the minnows, and then when we got the minnows, (??) they left us in the water playing. And they went off fishing, so. Some places we had fun, they'd lower us down off the bridge into the water the (??) the minnows. Hunted kind of around--locally, around behind the house, squirrels, rabbits. It was quite a bit more open and a lot more greenery around, back when I was growing up.David McPherson 04:35
So, I mean, it wasn't uncommon to see a rabbit run across the backyard or
[laughs] squirrels, we hunted squirrels. [sighs] What else, basically, that's about--.Dr. Blythe 04:49
--Did you play with your brothers; were you guys close?
David McPherson 04:53
Yes, yeah, well, growing up, yeah, I guess we were close. We did what siblings
do, especially me and my brother next to me, Michael. Who right now lives straight across in front of the church. Me and Mike used to--I guess we wrestled or fought all the time, because we were the youngest, but my older brother, Gary, we--you know, we were pretty close. Rick--I guess we all were pretty close, and I grew up with also three other cousins. My mom raised three of my cousins. Would be--people still get us mixed up for brothers and sisters, and that would be Paul, Beatrice, and Jimmy, and we all kind of grew up there. So, it was four of us, but it was actually seven of us that my mom--my mom and my grandma raised.David McPherson 05:40
My grandmother was, I may have mentioned, was a big part of my childhood.
Because it I guess---I'm not sure, since about eighteen months old and a burning house on the corner of Bunker's Lane and Buford Street. I was let in a burning house, and I need to get your name and give it to you, but there was a mailman. I don't want to call his name right now, don't wanna misquote it, but he's the one that came in and rescued me. The fire department basically wouldn't come in and from--I was kind of scared of lightning when I was growing up but go to Granny's house and get in the rocking chair and rock and I would sleep till the storm was over. [chuckles] but you know, pretty much in my brothers, we--in high school, we, as we grew, I guess we got closer, the fighting and the wrestling stuff. But we grew up with my mother, grew up in a single-family house, and my mom used to bake us all a pie. My brother Mike, across the street, would get up at night and eat some of everybody else's pie [laughter]. The next morning, he'd be the only one to have pie. [laughter] but you know, basically, we were a close--close family, and you know, my mom worked, and we finally---we purchased the house right down the street. And by the way, we are in my childhood neighborhood. I grew up right here on Buford Street.David McPherson 05:40
Who was your grandmother?
David McPherson 07:08
Elizabeth McPherson, and William McPherson. William, we called him 'Pop Bugs.'
He was a racehorse man, he spent most of his time in Ocala Florida. And my grandmother was here, and she kind of--she was a domestic worker. She cooked for everybody, all the--the attorneys and quite a few big people, and catered weddings. And, down on Maple Street, she cooked at Dunn's Milk Bar for quite a long time, and she cooked at the White Barn and at the Lancaster elementary school, a little bit also.Dr. Blythe 07:49
Now, the White Barn restaurant was out by the stockyard--.
David McPherson 07:54
--Stockyard, right.
Dr. Blythe 07:54
Owned by the Teeter (??) brothers.
David McPherson 07:55
Right, by the Teeters and Dunn's Milk Bar, I think, was owned by, I can't
remember his first name, Mr. Peel. I think it was Peel, or I might be wrong on that, we'll check that later.Dr. Blythe 08:07
They were white owners.
David McPherson 08:08
Yeah, but at the milk mart--at the Milk Bar, my mom worked there too. When we
went, we had to go around the back--around to the back door to see them. There was also a theater around here, and I never really got to go. My brothers--my older brothers went but, [laughs] but the theater, the Blacks sat in the balcony, and the whites sat in the bottom, and Blacks had to cross the street to Dunn's Milk Bar to use the restroom and to buy concessions. They were not allowed to buy concessions at--at the counter. Only thing they were allowed to get in front was a ticket, and they would go to the balcony, and which had an outside entrance, I'm not mistaken. And rain, snow, whatever, you had to come across the street to Dunn's Milk Bar, if you wanted a concession, or you wanted to use the restroom, you had to go across the street, to the Milk Bar.David McPherson 09:01
I guess I remember as a child, my years in the first---going to school up here.
I mean, I never went to school at Mason. So, my first years were--were two years after segregations, in '66, when I started school. So, it was kind of--kind of new and different, because I'd never really been around a lot of whites before, other than, I mean, I saw a lot of whites, but never had to play with--with any. Because it was kind of--when I was growing up I guess kind of, I might be ahead of myself, but things were different because. Like the judge, executive, today, I very rarely see on Buford Street. The judge then, I saw just about every day on Buford Street [chuckles] you know. All the--anybody in politics, you know, we kind of saw in the--in the community. Now it's kind of changed, you very rarely see anybody in the communities, but it was a--quite an experience. I remember Judge Wilson, not be confused with Judge Wilson now, but way back in the days, he used to fly a helicopter. And he used to land at the school, and they'll--made sure everybody could see the helicopter. One of those little bubble trainer---kind of helicopter, so.Dr. Blythe 10:22
And the school you're referring to is Lancaster Elementary?
David McPherson 10:25
Yes, Lancaster Elementary School, yeah--Lancaster Elementary-Junior High, I
should say. But that was the first school I started at, and that was one through eight, first through eighth grade, at Lancaster Elementary. They didn't call it junior high back--they just called it Lancaster Elementary, but it was actually a junior high school too. And I played basketball there, the Lancaster Green Devils. Played football, which was a youth league, mainly by Philip Stump, coached and kind of got everything together. So, I played six years of football and four years of basketball. I wasn't all that great at basketball, and I kind of realized that my freshman year. And I remember telling Coach Upchurch, I remember thinking about how I was going to tell him I didn't want to play anymore because he preached so much back quitting. [laughter]David McPherson 11:21
So, I approached him and---coach was Wade Upchurch. And I said, "Coach
Upchurch." And he said, "yeah, Dave?" And I said, "you know, I ain't gonna play basketball this year." And he said, "well, that's fine." And he says, "why not?" I said, "I ain't all that good at basketball." He said, "Well, Dave, basically, I'll tell you now. I kept you on the team because all your friends were on the team, and it didn't hurt me to have you on the team." He said, "I figured if you wasn't on team, you'd go somewhere and get in trouble, so we just kept you--[chuckles]--I just kept you with the rest of us." And then he told me that I was welcome to ride the bus. I was still a part of the team. I was with them riding the bus anywhere the basketball team went. So, I just concentrated on football--after my freshman year and played for Garrard County for four years. Coach Sam Burke started my junior and senior year as an offensive guard, which is odd for my size, but I did. And we had probably, looking at the football team today, just watching them practice, I'd say they get about 30 or 40 players. We had--my senior year, we had nineteen players and seventeen seniors [laughs] So, and we had an eight and two season that year. And probably because, reason why we didn't win more is because everybody was broke[n] up and beat up at the end of season. And now, a pretty famous case, I don't know if you guys have heard of it or not, Wilbur Dunn. The case of Wilbur Dunn, Jr, should I say.Dr. Blythe 12:49
He's Cecil Dunn's--.
David McPherson 12:51
--Cecil Dunn’s grandson is in a case about playing. He transferred from Danville
to Boyle County, he's an excellent quarterback, and it's kind of ironic that his dad was the quarterback. Wilbur Dunn, Senior was quarterback of the eight and two team, my senior year. And those were kind of childhood friends Wilbur Dunn, Steve Warren, Simon Norris, Jimmy Lee Anderson, Freddie Anderson. I kind of broke away from my brothers when I got in high school and played football. They might kill me for saying this, but most of--all of my brothers dropped out of high school, but they all have-- all but one, have gotten their GED now. And I actually didn't graduate from high school. because I had joined the Army when I was a junior.David McPherson 13:42
And when I joined the Army, the Army didn't care whether you graduated or not.
[laughs] You know, end of your senior year, you were gone. So, I finished high school at Fort Lewis High School, Fort Lewis, Washington, high school, and went on to take some college and nine years military. I served in, first duty station was Fort Dix, New Jersey. I enlisted for laser repair, and I went to Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland to take laser repair, and then I switched MOSs [Military Occupational Specialty] and became a 13 Bravo, which is field artillery, the big guns, cannons. And stayed with field artillery the rest of my career and achieved the rank of Staff Sergeant in a promotable status.David McPherson 14:33
Decided not to stay in the Army. I got out in 1987 and moved to Illinois and
worked for copy products for two and a half years and decided that the city was not for me. [laughter] The walls and the fences of the military posts can fool you into thinking that you love the big city. And so, after two years, I moved back to Lancaster. I worked for Electrolux as a service--service there, cleaning equipment. And then American Greeting, then from American Greeting to Garrard County High School, and from Garrard County High School to Berea College for six years. Seabury Center, I worked with ---the late coach, Weir Willie (??), which was a great friend of mine, and then from Berea College, back to Garrard County High School. And---.Dr. Blythe 15:29
--Did you work with Mary Beth?
David McPherson 15:31
I worked with--.
Dr. Blythe 15:32
--At Berea College--?
David McPherson 15:32
--Jack Rutherford and--.
Dr. Blythe 15:32
--Jack Rutherford.
David McPherson 15:33
And Mary Beth. When I first got there, it was Jack Rutherford, then Jack left,
and it was Mary Beth. And I've been pastoring here, I started pastoring here in 1991, when I was still at Berea.Dr. Blythe 15:51
Wow, that long.
David McPherson 15:53
Yeah.
Dr. Blythe 15:53
I'd forgotten it's ten years.
David McPherson 15:56
Yeah, I just celebrated nine years.
David McPherson 15:59
Yeah. Actually, been here eleven years. So, I was here, the previous pastor, a
Reverend J.J. Evans, was pastoring. He got sick, and in a---kind of a skip kind of way, I don't want to go through [chuckles] some details, but [coughs] he asked me to come and help him. And I was here for a year helping him, and just one Sunday, I drove up and they said that he had--he passed. And so, the year---I stayed for a year after that, and then during the screening process--or during the interviewing process for a pastor, they asked me one Sunday if I was going to submit a resume, which I did not do. Because I thought it to be a conflict of interest since I was overseeing everything. And so, they asked me for one, and I gave them one, and about six months later, they called me the pastor. And I've kind of been here, and it's--this church was---my grandmother was a Missionary Baptist. I grew up Predestinarian Baptist.Dr. Blythe 15:59
Nine?
Dr. Blythe 17:06
Could you explain any differences, in terms of teaching or.
David McPherson 17:10
Yeah, well.
Dr. Blythe 17:12
Practices.
David McPherson 17:13
The Missionary Baptist, it's kind of changed now. Missionary Baptists, in the
old school, I would go back to the--kind of the beginning of the--of the division, it was Baptist. And the missionaries stressed missions and the predestinarian, a Primitive Baptist, they stressed predestination, and they also believed in foot washing. So, the Predestinarian Baptists have three ordinances. The Missionary Baptists have two, which is baptism, the Lord's supper. And primitives and Predestinarian Baptists have three, which is baptism, the Lord's supper, and foot washing.David McPherson 17:58
And they also--missionaries have kind of opened up to this now, the
primitives--so the predestinarians, they believed in open communion. The missionaries believe in closed communion, what is--closed communion is only the membership of that church participates. Open communion is where anybody of the Christian faith can participate in the Lord's supper within the church, and missionaries kind of go into that now, so some things are kind of changing. But I grew up Predestinarian Baptist, and I was actually Predestinarian Baptist when I was here presiding over Missionary Baptist. [chuckles] And some Missionary Baptists had a great problem with that. [laughter] It even came out at pastor Evans' funeral, a guy that--and I won't use names.Dr. Blythe 18:51
Any other comments, Stacey, about education?
David McPherson 18:51
A fellow that was previously called in to fill in, things kind of went sour, and
he came back to visit, and kind of--he kind of made it known to other Missionary Baptists who would've--and, in other words, they would've never known I was Predestinarian Baptist, that I was Predestinarian Baptist. And so, it--and coming to this church from Predestinarian Baptist to Missionary Baptist was kind of a process. You know, it was kind of some, some--not here, but within the Missionary Baptist rank, there was kind of, you know, kind of a little shake up. Never had--not that it hadn't been done before, because the previous pastor of Somerset---Pastor, James Barlson (??), also came from Predestinarian Baptist which came, he came from the same association I did, he came from Stony Point, but they kind of get a little shaky. And I find--I do too when people come in from outside, because you never know what the beliefs are and what the differences is. So, it's understandable, but I had to go through baptism and licensing and ordination all again. And which I was willing to do, because if I was coming to the church, then the first thing is agree with their doctrine. So, I had no problem with doing it. I do---I don't want to jump y'all into--I don't want to go so fast.Stacey Roberts 20:24
Oh, I was just wanted to ask, are there any teachers that you remember from the
high school?David McPherson 20:30
Yes, quite a few of them, just from the high school or--.
Stacey Roberts 20:35
--From Lancaster Elementary as well.
David McPherson 20:36
From Lancaster all the way. I remember not--I remember Miss Marie Francis. She
was the Black teacher there, and Miss --briefly, Miss Sarah Evans. Yeah Sarah Evans, she's---this lady had one, one arm, uh, uh. Miss Francis mostly had kind of influenced, my third-grade teacher, and she would---Miss Francis had a way about us. [chuckles] She would--when she gave you a spanking, she would stick her finger, index finger in the loop of the boys' belt and she'd twist the pants and the girls, she would grab their dresses and twist it real tight. And she had a little red paddle, like one of those little ball pedals, and she called it hot tea. [laughter]David McPherson 21:30
But she was--she was, I thought she was mean in the younger years, but the older
I got, I realized that it wouldn't meanness, it was just sternness. Because there was concerned, I guess the dropout rate after the segregate--after segregation became kind of high, and I think she was just zealous and concerned. You know that you--that you stayed with it and stayed in and stuck with everything. But Miss--Miss Marie Francis was--would be the most memorable Black teacher.David McPherson 22:01
I guess Kenny Hurt was another one, he was my first basketball coach, at the
Green Devils. He coached one year, the sixth grade, but he taught history, and he always got me, and my brother Mike mixed up. And my mom--my mom was kind of stern, if we did something wrong, and she had to come up to the office we got it, but they did something wrong and--and she had to go up there, they got it. And one particular time, Kenny Hurt thought that I was Mike, so he--he gave me about three swats with the paddle. Back then, paddling was perfectly legal, wish there wasn't (??) [chuckles] but so I went and told my mom. I said, "he whipped me for nothing." So, mom went up and saw him, and he come back. And he came back, and he said, "Dave." He said, "I'm sorry, I thought you was Mike." And he said, "next time you get in trouble, I'll get Mike." [laughter]David McPherson 22:57
But no, he taught history, he was basketball coach, and also, then later on in
high school, he was the football coach. I actually thought I was getting rid of him after sixth, seventh and eighth grade and--and the year I graduated from eighth grade, I learned that he was transferring to the high school to teach freshman history. So, I ran into him again for freshman history. But he had a lot of sayings you know, he's the one who had all the sayings that--quite a few sayings, I kind of picked up and carried to the military. Because he was military, actually he was National Guard. I'm not sure if any other principal, Mr. Dyehouse (??) I kind of remember him when I first went. And then later on, Delma Warrant (??) he was quite memorable. Because Delma, would--we get caught shooting dice in the locker room, in the eighth grade, not for money [laughs]----. ---We were shooting dice and so, we got caught, and went to the office, and Delma was kind of a straight up man.David McPherson 23:56
And he, said, "well, we'll just settle this real quick what you shoot, you--what
you roll is what you get." So, we had to shake the dice and roll them our---you know, whatever we rolled is how many licks we got with the paddle. So, we had some--quite a---it was quite, quite good. I remember, let's see if I can think anybody else. Miss Ella B. Williams, better known as 'Sis.' She was also a teaching assistant at the school. She was a Black lady, and she would straighten us out when we needed to be straightened out. Miss Merritt, in high school, I never had Miss Merritt, but I won't tell you why. Because it's highly--kind of downgraded these days, not like it was when I was in school, but Miss Merritt caught me doing something coming up the steps one time. And she never said a word. We got up to the top of the steps, and she said, "Mr. McPherson, can I see you in my room, please?"David McPherson 24:55
And I went down, and she said, "Mary Louise, wouldn't approve of what I've seen
you do." And she said, "stick your--hold your hand out," and she would bend your hand, take your fingers, and she would bend them back till your palms were up. And she had a ruler that she would spank your hands with. And I begged her--I said, "Miss Merritt, please spank me on my rear." And she said, "nope, you know, I don't do it like that." [laughter] And she beat my right--it was actually my right hand. She'd beat my writing hand, and I had a test [chuckles] next--the class I was going to--had a test in. So, I got--got to class, and I couldn't--barely could write, you know, do the test, because she had--but I was wrong, so. I won't say what I was guilty of, but I was guilty.David McPherson 25:38
But Miss Merritt was---she got on anybody in the hallway, and she always told
you when you did good. If she saw you do something good, she would tell you, and she would tell you when she--do--when she saw you do something bad. I don't remember from Mason; I remember being young that Mason. I mentioned me and my cousin Beatrice, we never went to Mason, but we scold--we used to cut through the fence. Mason was kind of behind my grandmother's house, and we would cut through the fence when they opened up the little concession stand. And we'd go get us popsicle, you know, because that's all we could do when we'd eat our popsicles and wish we could go to school, but we were, you know, we were too young to go to school, but that was one thing that we--. And we'd go up and work our way through all the older people at recess, and we'd feel big for a while, and get us a popsicle and head back to the yard on other side of the fence, and we'd watch--watch them play, and wish we could go. Because that's where everybody was at but us, it seemed like. But any other teachers--I don't really remember. I don't want to call too many names. Because if somebody hears this interview and I left them out. You know, I might be in trouble. [laughter]Stacey Roberts 26:47
You mentioned earlier that you had a teacher in your third-grade class that was
very stern towards--I'm guessing the Black students, because she was afraid of dropout rates.David McPherson 26:58
Well, after--after., I guess segregation, dropout rates kind of---kind of went
up. You know, I've mentioned that, you know, three of my brothers dropped out, and I wouldn't--I graduated---I ain't actually want to--want to leave school, but the Army said, 'you know, come on.' I failed--didn't get my English [chuckles] and they used to come on it (??) But that was a lot--mean, I remember from my early years in Lancaster Elementary up to high school, that the drop--not just among Blacks, but even among the rural---rural whites, the dropout rate was kind of high. I could--there's a lot of people would drop out.David McPherson 27:35
And I guess that from Mason, and Miss Marie Francis had taught at Mason. Miss
Marie---actually, she'd come up a long way through the early education, and she'd worked hard to--to see that Blacks had an education. So, I guess it's kind of when you make that transformation, and we'll talk more about that, I'm trying to keep from going into segregation. I've-- read the--read the [chuckles] thing, but I guess after you make that transformation and you start to see that maybe it's not working out, and your people are the one that's kind of losing out or dropping out. I guess it kind of makes you more stern on the ones who are there and make--trying to make sure that they don't drop out. And it's not really--she wouldn't really--I took it as meanness, but it was encouragement. It was, you know, trying to get you to go on when--when you felt like giving up. And it was--I didn't really understand what was going on when I went to school. Never really had been to school. So, it wasn't new to me, as it was a lot of us, but you could--a lot of other kids that had been to Mason. But you could see, you know, being the younger group, you could kind of see that there was something going on.David McPherson 28:41
Because there was always--the big guys always fighting and was always between,
you know, sometimes between white and Black, and there was you know, kind of a tension there. So, you could kind of see that, even though you didn't really understand that. You didn't really know what was going on, but you knew it wasn't right, I'll put it that way. And then, the more we got into it, into school then you, you kind of knew. And I'm not saying that it was terrible, but there was tension there. And I mean, honestly, it's even mentioning that and with the way of education, I think education was a lot better then for Blacks than it is now. I mentioned Kenny Hurt and playing basketball for him, and even after--when he wasn't the coach of basketball, not just Black students, but all basketball players, had a contract for an A. And if your homework and your test scores didn't add up, then you had to write reports and read books and give book reports to get points to bring your grade up to A. And if your grade was below a B, you didn't play until it was back up to a B, until you had done enough extra work to bring it back up to a B. And he didn't care how good you were, you wouldn't have played. Because he--that's one, one thing I remembered him, he--he was the same way to all students, whether Black or --or white.David McPherson 30:05
And we actually went to his house on Hill-N-Dale [Drive] when it wasn't cool to
go for him--for us to be on Hill-N-Dale. And he didn't care, I mean, that's--we went to his house and shot basketball in the yard and shot pool in this house and--and got corrected sometimes about how things were. You know, sometimes we took it as, that's old Mr. Hurts, but, you know, you forget about that test you didn't do too good on. [laughs] And when you got there, I mean, you played basketball and shot pool, but it was into the house and, you know, [chuckles] kind of a handshake. So, I kind of, he's---he's remembered--it was. I think it was a challenge--it was a bigger challenge than--given now--than it is now. I mean, I've seen, and I may--went in the way of education, since I've been back in Garrard County. And I've seen excellent athletes, and--but they're not athletes now at the next level because of low challenges, what I think of school. It's not just school, it's also parents, but I'm of this kind of persuasion.David McPherson 31:15
I hear it a lot, I work as a custodian, by the way, which--and all the same.
Like most great men in black history, Carter G. Woodson was--started off as custodian. Worked his way through [chuckles] school, but just throwing that in. But I mean, now when I'm there, as a custodian at the school, I also see, I've seen a lot of African--Black athletes that graduated who are not now doing anything. And I can probably call some names, since you were an '09 graduate and you probably know a lot of them. They're not doing anything because they were never challenged, but they played football. And I try to tell, especially Black athletes. I tell all young athletes, young, you know, whether Black or white, I don't want--but I do get more on the Black athletes that stats don't mean anything anymore. You know, when I was growing up, believe me, when I was growing up, grades were given on the football field [laughs]. Believe me, when you run a touchdown--I won't call any names of any coaches, but---I don't wanna do that.David McPherson 32:16
But I know a lot of guys that got grades on the football field. And basically,
it's, I know what the idea was, but it was kind of crippling. The same coaches that would give somebody a grade on the football field would wring my neck if I got a low grade. Some guys had come through the system, and they were at the point of seniors, and, I mean, they were gonna---they were only way out of school, and they just basically tried to give them a grade to make it look good. They knew they weren't going to the next level, because--because of--they had been passed through the system so much, but then at the same time, and I don't know. I don't know why they did it, but I guess you're caught in the middle at the same time. Like myself [me] and Wilbur Dunn, the same guy that would give one guy a grade, would say, you know, if you come up with a low grade, they say, "listen, you gotta bring it up if you wanna keep playing." So, I don't know, I guess they were cau--I don't wanna say they were bad people for doing it, but I guess they were caught in a situation. The guys--of seniors is, he's not going to stay in school anymore, more than likely, he's not going to go to college. I'm not saying that's why it was, but I'm not trying to explain it, but it happened. I don't always understand it, because, like, I say, if I made a low grade, it was, you know, neck ringing and running around the football field [laughs]. So, I guess there was, I guess they were kind of caught in a straight of, you know, here we got a generation that's--that's coming up that we can't let slip through the cracks but here it goes. You know, these guys were juniors and seniors when I was a freshman. But here goes a group that's kind gonna come through before we get here and started coaching. And they're good kids, they just not getting it done academically.David McPherson 34:02
They're not only way to college because their GPA is too low. I don't know, I
can't explain it, but it happened, but I can't call them bad people. Because, like, again, they--they were heavy disciplinarians on the--on the freshmen and the sophomores that were coming through, about grades and about a lot of other things. So, I guess we'd never understand everything. But I guess it's--Coach Burke, let me mention Coach Sam Burke, who was the football coach. Who was another memorable teacher, but I don't always remember him as a teacher, because I never had him as a teacher. He was--the football coaches was always coach Burke, and he was--he was another kind of like--. Between--Caach Hurt-- was Coach Hurt was kind of stern, Coach Burke was kind of laid back, and he was the head coach. Now don't get me wrong he--he would get you, but he was kind of the guy that made wise cracks and [chuckles] but he kept the team running. He--I mean, he was a motivator.David McPherson 35:09
He would tell us, you know, all the time we were--sophomore year, when we
started understanding football and getting to play a little bit, we were like, four and six, and he'd always give the talk. He told us, what was--the story at Lincoln County, in which the game we won about the soldiers on the battlefield, and you know, they run out of bullets. And so, the guy comes, he said, "listen, guys, you know, you got to have faith and just point at them and go, bang, bang. Believe they'll fall dead, and they'll fall dead." And so, he was telling us a story said, "you get to the end of the story--this one guy, you know, he pulls his trigger, and this one guy's coming over the hill, and he pulls his trigger," and he says, "bang, bang, the guy doesn't fall dead." And he says, "oh, I shot you. You got to fall dead." And the guy says, [makes a firing noise] "boom, I'm a tank." [laughs] So he was, you know, he's saying, you know, if you have faith, it takes you a long way, but you're always going to run into roadblocks. And that game we won, he'd always tell us, you know, "guys, if you can't get it ten yards, take it five. If you can't get it five, take it two. If you can't get two, take it one. If you're not getting one, just keep hitting the line and something will open up."David McPherson 36:19
And those things, even though they were on the football field, I found them to
be relevant in life, because sometimes you're hitting a brick wall and you can't find a door open, but if you stop hitting it, it's not going to open up. And all the time you're not going to get it ten yards at a shop. It's good when you do, but all the time you're not. And then one more fellow, Marshall Norton. He was assistant principal. I worked in the summertime with--with Coach Hurt and Mr. Norton at school. That's where I got my start, in custodial work, at school in the summertime.David McPherson 36:54
Mr. Norton, I came to like more in my later years, after working there toward
junior and senior year. And I'll always remember the sign he had in his office. It said, 'don't worry about the steps you miss on the way up, you will surely catch them on your way down.' I learned that lesson also [laughs] too many times. Don't--don't skip steps [laughs], go ahead, and add them going up and that way, you'll know they're there when you're coming down. You might grab one and hold on to it and stop the fall. I guess, in the way of education, that's about it. Anything else?Stacey Roberts 37:28
After graduating high school or obtaining a GED, did you or any of your family
members continue their education?David McPherson 37:36
Yes, me. [laughs] I took some courses at Berea College. Took some courses in the
Army, it wasn't--. In the field I was in--in the military, combat arms, field artillery. We spent a lot of time in the field. I did manage to take three or four courses. We stayed deployed a lot, so it's a little bit of a myth, about you can get it by. I did have an education fund saved up and Elijah--my middle child, I didn't tell you about my boys. My middle child was two pounds, two ounces at birth, and he was two and a half months premature. So, my education fund, I took an emergency to kind of help pay for me not working and pay some of the bills for him. So, I went to Kentucky Tech, BCTCS [Bluegrass Community and Technical College System], I think it is now. And I also took religion, I studied religion at Berea, as a student employee. And I'm getting ready to go back--trying to go back now, had some money saved, and my twenty-two-year-old who wasn't going to college, who, in the midst of not going to college. And I'd saved money to go to college, called me one time, and "daddy, I'm in school." Okay, "but, but I need x number of dollars to stay in." I said, " Okay, all right, well you got it." [laughter]David McPherson 39:08
And so, his--his name is Johnte (??), he's twenty-two. And while we're at it,
I'll mention the other two. Elijah, I've already mentioned and Ezekiel, Elijah's sixten. Ezekiel is twelve, and they all December babies. Johnte will be twenty-three December the 30th. Elijah will be seventeen December the 12th, and Ezekiel will be thirteen, December the 16th.Dr. Blythe 39:30
So, you have three children.
David McPherson 39:31
I have three children.
Dr. Blythe 39:32
And your wife's name--.
David McPherson 39:32
--My wife's name is Denise.
Dr. Blythe 39:34
Denise.
David McPherson 39:35
Yes.
Dr. Blythe 39:35
Okay. Is she a native of Garrard County?
David McPherson 39:37
She's a native of Madison County.
Dr. Blythe 39:39
Madison County.
David McPherson 39:40
Yeah. Now, John Tay is by a previous wife, and that kind of ended when I started
preaching. She didn't want to be married to a preacher. So, he is originally from--she's originally from Peoria, Illinois. He attends Brown's College at Minnesota, studying video game design.Stacey Roberts 40:01
Oh, wow.
David McPherson 40:03
His mother's name is Teresa, and I met her in the military. [chuckles] So I will
throw that in, but yeah, I have three, and I stress education heavily. Ezekiel will be home schooled this year. He didn't like the middle school--said he didn't like the middle school. He's quiet, he's reserved. He says, "I just didn't like it." And I was concerned, "did anybody mess with you inappropriately." "No, daddy, nothing happened like that, I just don't like it." [laughs] And so, but I think he does have some issues with some people there. Because I can mention some names, and it kind of gets with him and one name in particular. I won't call it, but the guy has got a reputation for being, I don't know, he's a male teacher, and he talks at the top of his lungs all the time, and--.Dr. Blythe 41:00
--Does that mean loud?
David McPherson 41:01
Yeah, loudly, and, you know. They do some kind of--he had one teacher that told
him they--they, at the middle school, they like do this team stuff. And a teacher told him that one of his partners wouldn't work, and so he wouldn't, no matter how hard he worked, he'd get an F. And, I mean, I went, I went about that one, but I mean that kind of stuff, and it's like, I tell him, you know, a sixth grader, you can't tell a sixth grader that. He didn't do the project, that was his first, actually, his first F in school, because he didn't do the project. Because no matter what I told him or convinced him, or what I talked to--told him we had talked to the teacher, he's just demotivated. So, I didn't push him to do it. I mean, I hated for him to get an F, but that was his first F. He just didn't--he said, "well, I'm gonna get one anyway. They already said it they--." And so, he didn't, and--but he used to love school, and then he--middle School, he just, "I don't like it."Dr. Blythe 41:58
---So, he'll be homeschooled?
David McPherson 42:00
Be homeschooled this year, be a seventh grader.
Allyse Taylor 42:02
[chuckles] Well, Reverend McPherson, will you describe your family's involvement
in church and the place of religion in your childhood?David McPherson 42:14
My family's involvement has kind of always been no choice. You're getting up
[laughs]--you live in this house, you were getting up and you're going to Sunday school, you're going to church, and you're going to Bible study. And I grew up, like I say, I grew up in church. I sung in the choir, don't ask me to sing, because now I really--when you get older, you realize things you know. [laughter] You can be convinced of anything when you're young, but when you get older, you kind of realize things.Dr. Blythe 42:43
They always invited me out of the choir, so. [laughter]
David McPherson 42:47
But I sung in the choir at church and---and I traveled with church. We went
quite a few places. Reverend J.T. Blue was actually the fellow that baptized--from the pastor there. He's the late Reverend J.T. Blue, may I say. And I remember when we, oh, they used to wait till Mother's Day and baptized. And we went to a place called Lake Lorraine, and this particular point, you know, Mother's Day had got--had passed and it was December. And I remember the women saying, "--Reverend Blue--Pastor Blue, you gonna kill them children out there." And Reverend Blue said, "if they got anything, they'll be alright." [laughter] But we--he baptized twelve of us in Lake Lorraine it was--it was about--it was snowing.Dr. Blythe 43:33
Is this at Madison County?
David McPherson 43:35
No, it's in Garrard County. You remember Lake Lorraine, it's out toward Crab
Orchard, on [Highway] 39. Turn off of--.Dr. Blythe 43:41
--I had forgotten that.--
David McPherson 43:42
--39. Lake Lorraine, yeah, but we baptized there, and we actually, Reverend Blue
was all right. I guess we all had something, because nobody even got the flu, you know, after we was baptized, nobody but him and Deacon Leavell-- (??) Taylor Leavell, the Taylor Leavell. Deacon Taylor Leavell, he was kind of his point man. He'd go out in the middle with his big stick and find a good shallow spot. And he would do that. And previously--to Taylor, long before Taylor. When I was young, I hadn't converted yet, but I was in church. Like I say, we didn't really have a choice, whether we had made the confession or not, you were going.David McPherson 44:24
Mr.--Deacon Oscar Jackson. And Deacon Jackson was amazing because he--we would
leave from St. Paul, and we marched to a pond on Totten Avenue. Lucian (??) Dunn's Pond is what we called it. And Deacon Jackson, he was always first out, and Deacon Jackson were getting from the church. And he'd have this big limb in his hand, and he'd start singing--he'd start singing, "Take me to the Water." And he would walk to the pond by hisself, [himself] while everybody else was getting ready. And he would sing that song, and he would sing it loud. Standing in the middle of that pond until the whole congregation filed from Saint Paul and the candidates for baptism were there. And when Reverend Blue--when J.T. Blue, got in the water and started his spiel on baptism, that's when Deacon Jackson stopped singing. And when the baptism was over, Deacon Jackson was the first one to leave, and he would leave singing, "I know I've been changed." And he would sing that--and he would sing that in front of the church until all the congregation filed back up to the church.Dr. Blythe 45:32
So, this was at St Paul Predestinarian--.
David McPherson 45:34
St. Paul Predestinarian Baptist Church--.
Dr. Blythe 45:36
---On South Campbell.
David McPherson 45:37
On South Campbell.
Dr. Blythe 45:38
And you would walk down Totten Avenue to the pond at Mr. Lucian Dunn's property.
David McPherson 45:44
Right, and we baptized in the muddy pond. And I think a sinkhole, or something
came up in it and that's why we started at Lake Lorraine, Lowering Daniels (??) as we called it. It was a swimming--it's a concrete bottom lake, and that's where the--where everybody swam. I didn't swim so, I went there, but I didn't swim. Still can't swim, believe it or not, but I jumped out of a helicopter into quite a bit of water and got out. [laughter]Stacey Roberts 46:14
How old were you when you were baptized?
David McPherson 46:16
Six--it's 1966. I was baptized December, I can't remember the exact date in
December, but December of 1966, I was baptized.Dr. Blythe 46:27
Who were some of the other pastors at St. Paul Predestinarian? You mentioned--.
David McPherson 46:32
--Reverend--.
Dr. Blythe 46:32
--Reverend Blue.
David McPherson 46:33
William Covington. And then--
Dr. Blythe 46:35
And he was the husband of Mrs. Susie Letcher Covington.
David McPherson 46:38
Covington.
Dr. Blythe 46:39
The teacher.
David McPherson 46:40
Right, right. Now, see you remember all that. Reverend William Covington, when I
was young, he was the pastor there. I was real young [chuckles] and then after Reverend Covington, I think he got ill because Reverend Covington asked, if I may mention pastor, he was a circuit preacher. If y'all know what a circuit preacher was.Allyse Taylor 47:02
Could you tell us what it is?
David McPherson 47:04
Yes, he pastored more than one church. He went from---he pastored Saint Paul
Predestinarian Baptist Church, Richmond Predestinarian Baptist Church. And I don't wannna say--the third one was either Pleasant Green or Concord. I think Pleasant Green, up in Waco, Kentucky.Dr. Blythe 47:23
So, two churches in Madison County and one church in Garrard.
David McPherson 47:27
Right, and he went Sunday to Sunday, preaching at these churches. The old
circuit preachers, as they called them, but they traveled around. They had really not one church, but they traveled around, so we called him pastor at Saint Paul. They called him pastor at Richmond Predestinarian Baptist, and they called him pastor at I think, Pleasant Green Waco. I'll check that out--when I find out--if I find out I'm wrong, I will let you know on the transcript. But he was in---and his funeral--his funeral was held at Richmond Predestinarian Baptist Church, and it--three congregations that day, met at that church. And Reverend J.T. Ballou (??) the late Reverend J.T. Ballou, came after Reverend Covington, and he baptized---I'm not sure how long he was there, it was quite a while.David McPherson 48:18
And then Reverend Isaiah Kennedy, came from Flatwoods, and he pastored there,
and that's the fellow that I started--I preached my initial sermon on under. Reverend Isaiah Kennedy at Saint Paul. I actually acknowledged it under my brother at Elizabeth Predestinarian, it was then, it was Elizabeth Predestinarian Baptist, now it's Elizabeth Baptist, that they had converted to missionary. My brother was the pastor there, Michael, who lives across the street, and pastors at Sweet Leaf--the Primitive Baptist Church in Louisville now. And that's all the pastors that I remember, and right now Reverend--presently Pastor Barry W. Bowman has passed away.David McPherson 49:11
My grandmother belonged here, and I think I mentioned that she was a missionary.
We were---she come from Crab Orchard. Initially, my grandmother come from Crab Orchard, Kentucky, or Lincoln County. So, she actually belonged up there, which it was a Missionary Baptist Church that they belonged to. My aunt, if I may mention also, Aunt Laverne is a Missionary Baptist. My late aunt Rebecca--I say--oh, no, what is her name--Bessie Francis was also a Missionary Baptist.Dr. Blythe 49:41
Did they all belong to Crab Orchard, in Lincoln County---?
David McPherson 49:43
Yes, yes, they all belonged. And then later, my mom, who was of the younger
group, they grew up at St. Paul, after they moved from Lincoln County to Garrard County.Dr. Blythe 49:55
Okay.
David McPherson 49:55
So, it's kind of [a] divided thing. Miss Merritt used to have a thing, and I
tell the congregation she kind of cursed me. Because after I started--went into the ministry, after I started preaching Miss Merritt used say all the time, she said, "I just don't understand. Ms.--McPherson was a Missionary Baptist and all the preachers of that predestinarian Baptist Church," and I ended up pastor of a [chuckles] Missionary Baptist Church. Her--mission--in fact, our home church. This is her home church. This church pretty much housed quite a bit, I think this one and the Methodist Church. Most of the educators in the county--in the community, Miss Marie Francis, Miss Merritt. I'm not sure where Miss Evans from, Miss Lily B. Mason was from Saint Andrews AME Church, uh, Reverend William Covington. No, his--his wife was Predestinarian Baptist. So, I guess it was kind of--kind of scattered.Dr. Blythe 50:55
Between the two--.
David McPherson 50:55
But yeah, between so it was--[whispers] (??).
David McPherson 51:05
--Religion was, was, I guess, a big part of life. And I went to the Army, I've
mentioned I went to the Army, and I got away from church when I left home. I got out on my own in the Army and didn't really go to church in the Army too much. But when I came back--came back home, I think--I was living in the state of Illinois, I think when I got my first initial inkling of calling of something---something going on in life, you know? And then I got back home--when I came back home, started to really happen. And then one, one morning, I met my brother, Michael. I tell you (??)--we're close, well, we see each other--we--I work at night. He works at night, I'm on day shift, now because school is out, but I'll say about Mike. He gets off at 11. I get off at 12, and we meet every night for coffee, and then we meet every morning for coffee and breakfast. [chuckles]David McPherson 52:06
So, we kind of keep it kind of close. All of us are close, my older brother Gary
gets mad, if we don't come to his house for coffee [laughter], when he catches us, you know. But one--the morning that the calling, or I accepted or acknowledged that God was doing something. My brother Mike, you can't wake him up in the morning, and I went to the store, we had a grocery store here, then [laughs] reminiscing. And I went to the grocery store to get sausage, and I walked to get sausage, and Mike was buying sausage. I thought 'strange, he's usually home in bed, by now.' Now, this was when he worked a different shift. And so, I went home, and I started cooking sausage. And the next thing I know, I was in his kitchen, and I was telling him, I said, "I don't know what's going on." And he said, I told him what happened, and he said, "well, I mean, all you can do is accept it." So, kind of been in the ministry ever since. That was in 1992, it's been almost eighteen years now.Allyse Taylor 53:17
You've been in the ministry for eighteen years.
David McPherson 53:19
Yes.
Allyse Taylor 53:21
How many churches have you pastored?
David McPherson 53:23
Two--.
Allyse Taylor 53:25
And what were those names (??)>
David McPherson 53:26
I pastored, yeah, I pastored, Pleasant Green Predestinarian Baptist Church.
Virtually, I was there for about a year, and I --I now pastor First Baptist Church in Lancaster.Dr. Blythe 53:40
Now, where's Pleasant Green?
David McPherson 53:42
Waco, Kentucky.
Dr. Blythe 53:46
In Madison County.
David McPherson 53:47
Yes, I never really sought to pastor, and it kind of happened both times, you
know [chuckles]. One time, it kind of didn't work out. The second time yes, I've been---nine years now and I'm not--not looking to go anywhere, but I leave--in the religion, I kind of leave that up to God. A lot of, I know a lot of people move, they get a better offer and more money. I don't really feel that way. I feel that whether the money is enough or not, believe me, I can use more money [chuckles]. But I think God has a specific work for specific people in specific places. And right now, I kind of feel that this one's it for me. Because I've also rewritten the history. I researched and rewritten the history, which I hope you guys come, September the 11th. We [are] gonna do a historical dedication---historical marker dedication. And--Dr. Blythe 54:47
Is that a Saturday or Sunday?
David McPherson 54:49
That's a Saturday.
Dr. Blythe 54:49
Saturday.
David McPherson 54:50
--At one o'clock right now, at one o'clock, and Pastor Robert Bly (??) will be
delivering the address. And. Mr. Keith Bullock, who y'all know, I think. Y'all know Keith Bullock.Dr. Blythe 55:03
At Berea College?
David McPherson 55:04
Yes, at Berea College. A real good friend of mine is--should be singing a song.
He better be singing a song. I'm gonna be killing a friend figuratively, no, I wouldn't kill him [laughs]. Really, I love him too much to kill him, but I will figuratively kill him if he don't show up. In religion, Mr. Bullock is---he's been here one time, and that was when I was installed, and he's been coming back for the last nine years on my anniversary to sing a song, which I just celebrated last Sunday. And guess who wouldn't here, Mr. Bullock? But, and I just kind of believe that I'm where God wants me to be. Because, no, it's--money's tight but believe me, I learned when I come to Elijah that I think about that all the time.David McPherson 55:49
You know, sometimes money gets tight and gets on our mind, and I just kind of
think back, boy, we didn't have nothing. You still had everything you needed, where did it come from? You didn't have money. So, you know, I kind of remind myself, too, as a pastor. We get kind of kind of down sometimes when things are not going great. I just had an air conditioner break down, and my son turned sixteen, and I bought him a used car. [chuckles] So, you know, but and--I think about it and--I'm blessed to be able to do it brother [laughs] and not really be hurting. So, religion means a lot in my life, not necessarily religion, but Christianity means a lot. And it always has of---my two favorite subjects are theology and history. So, it's been a big part of life.David McPherson 56:47
I also--I mention this--there are three--there are four preachers in the family.
Just on this side, there were two. It's one on my father's side, my Uncle Fred was a preacher and pastored at Mount Salem. My brother Michael, whom I mentioned earlier, pastored Elizabeth Predestinarian Baptist Church, and now presently is at Sweet Leaf Primitive Baptist Church. And he's a very dedicated fellow, I mentioned he lives across the street, but he pastors in Louisville. And he's in Louisville two three to time--two to three days a week. And he's also like me, is a---a tent maker. He works another job. So, I look at him and I wouldn't do it, but I always keep him in prayer. [laughs] James McPherson, who pastors-- [coughs] who's a cousin, [clears throat] and he pastors Stony Point Predestinarian Baptist Church, over in Boyle County. And he also was the previous pastor of Concord Predestinarian Baptist Church up in Richmond, Kentucky. I'll say Madison County, it's not actually in Richmond. There are two deacons, Paul, and Ricky, my--Paul's cousin, and Ricky's my brother. My mom was a long time cook in the church and the cook still pretty much is her and my Aunt Kathy, who's Paul---Paul's mother. And they're, they're known for hot water cornbread. Berea's known for spoon bread, but these McPherson women are known for hot water cornbread. [laughter]Dr. Blythe 58:29
It's very good--it's very tasty.
David McPherson 58:33
And let's see what else, but church has always been, you know, a big part of
growing up and--and family life. And I guess, growing up in a single parent home, and it's been a big part of---my mom always said. "The Lord will make a way." You know, being--things didn't work out. I remember, and maybe, no, I'm not going to tell that on there. [laughs]Dr. Blythe 58:56
What is [are] some of your accomplishments here at the church.
David McPherson 59:01
This is a hard one for me. Because I don't like talk about those. I--what I
think is an accomplishment. [laughs]Dr. Blythe 59:07
It's okay, if you're comfortable sharing with us, just--just anything then?
David McPherson 59:12
I think one of the things is, is the building. The building, it's coming in a
distance with the building the way it, the way it was, and the way it is. We kind of done quite a bit of work on the building since I've been here. I'm not--I'm not--I have, I think, eight--baptized eight since I've been here. I'm not so much worried when I'm not getting a lot of people coming and joining the church, a lot of pastors are. Especially when, be careful, now. When the mindset and the knowledge of what you have is the way, it is [chuckles] no growth number one is, to me, it's neither desired.David McPherson 1:00:11
I mean and I'm saying, now growth, don't get me wrong when I say, I do desire
for the church to grow. Believe me, maybe I should say numbers. Because--and I tell them this all the time, and I've told them this, you know, they basically, when I came here, they asked me, well, you know, 'are you willing to give up being a Predestinarian Baptist and become a Missionary Baptist?' And I kind of remind them of this quite often, and I did---I was rebaptized, relicensed, but when I got here, you know what I found out, I thought I was only the Missionary Baptist here. [laughter] You know what I mean, the doctrine. They were ignorant of the doctrine. They were ignorant of the bylaws. And when I started to lead as a Missionary Baptist, the church flew to pieces. And everybody said, "well, he's, you know, he's--." and I'm thinking, 'what am I doing wrong? I thought these people said they were Missionary Baptist.'David McPherson 1:01:11
So, I mean, it's--in the beginning was--it was rough waters because, you
know---. Maybe some because of new leadership and clash. I'm military, I'm blunt, I tell people like it is [laughs]. I lost quite a few members or did. Some whom I love dearly, one whom I loved dearly, I won't call names because I don't want to do that, it causes trouble, but the younger generation. I don't know what you guy's view on it, but I guess you guys are interviewing me. [laughs] I'm not so much with the rap and the danc---and I'm not that I'm against it. If we want to have if---we want to do Chris--I'd rather hear Christian rap, then what I call crap [laughs] that's the other stuff.David McPherson 1:02:05
I'm not even talking about rap, when I was growing up, the rap when I was
growing up, I wasn't really big on it, but I could listen to it, you know, with the--. And I've gone back to my childhood, but with Run DMC and Curtis Blow and Sugar Hill Gang. And it was rhyme, and it was--but it was clean, but the stuff now, but I'd rather hear, you know, young people rap Christian rap, and I don't care about the--I'm not gonna say I don't care, the new thing of dancing. And I get---maybe it's not dancing, it's, it's--some of the places I've seen it at, I have--it bothers me in church when I see young women who are very nice looking, young women in jeans. And you're doing what they call interpretive dance, or you know, motion.David McPherson 1:02:29
And I'm not against it, believe me, if this church--when the kids wanted to rap,
believe me, I would say, "listen, get them something to wrap with. Do it in the basement." And I believe the sanctuary is a sanctuary. I believe that church is changing because we're bringing too much in the name of winning--winning souls. I'm old fashioned, as people say. I believe the Bible gives us the method of winning souls in this foolishness of preaching. That's what---that's what the Bible says. I'm---I'm just Bible. And I think when you get in any other way, and I--the scripture, Jesus says, you know, "I am the door, and he that comes through the father comes---has to come by me. And if any climbs up any other way,---same as a thief and a robber." So, if I bring in members because I have rap and because I do interpretive dance, and they're not coming for the gospel, to me, they're climbing up another way.David McPherson 1:04:01
And by the same token, I've seen churches who had rap, and they've had the
dance, and they were humongous, and then the pastor dies, or he gets another church, and the next guy comes in, doesn't like it, and next thing you know, there's--the church is torn apart. And they said, "well, it's because of the pastor?" Well, is it because of the pastor, or is it because the people that were there were there for the wrong reason? If the pastor's preaching the same gospel that saved them why leave because you get new pastor?" So, I'm very--and not that I'm against it. I'm worried about the church because of the things that we're doing in the name of building memberships rather than--. And it's a---it's a thing, and maybe I'm old fashioned. I love history, but we'll get into---when we talk about, I think we're talking about segregation a little bit later, but--. And I'm afraid of it, because I think that that people are coming in and claiming to be saved. And as a pastor, I've experienced it, and then I asked them, "how do you believe salvation is obtained?" And they can't tell me you know--how can you be saved? If you don't know how to get saved, you know it, it's basic.Dr. Blythe 1:05:21
---What's your vision for the church--for this church?
David McPherson 1:05:24
My vision for this church is to become a light in this community and--and a
better light of--you know, a light in the--- African--in the African American community. Because, you know, when I studied history---when I studied the history, and I kind of brought that, oh there's my glasses. And this is just a[n] outline of what I found that when I--when I did the history of the church was.Dr. Blythe 1:05:59
Can you hold it just one second--.
David McPherson 1:06:00
Yes.
Dr. Blythe 1:06:00
Let me make sure we've got enough time. Do we need to switch.
Allyse Taylor 1:06:06
The track, so let's continue.
Dr. Blythe 1:06:08
I just didn't want us to run over and miss some of this.
David McPherson 1:06:10
Okay, but what I found out when I researched the history of the church.
This--the original history says the church was founded in 1858. What I found that the church was actually organized in 1851, in March of 1851. At the--when the Lancaster Baptist Church moved on a petition from the Black members to have a Black pastor to conduct their service. Now, some people argue with me and say, "well, it's---they didn't have a constitution, not a church. But what constitutes a church is a pastor and a congregation, which I think this clearly states, to conduct their services. The petition was granted without a constitution.David McPherson 1:06:56
The Black congregation was organized under pastor---under Pastor Bob Irvin (??)
who was given permission to preach and baptize Blacks. That constitutes a congregation, right. In 1854, the group petitioned for separate services, and in October 1854, they were granted the right to separate service which was--which were held on Sunday evenings. In 1866, Washington and Edmund Lusk, Alfred Simpson, Jess Barlow, Milton Brown, Jerry Gill, and Louisa Barlow petitioned for their own church and to be constituted under Washington Lusk. The petition was granted, and the first meeting place was near the intersection of North Campbell and Buckeye Road. And I'll mention that's the location of the Lancaster Baptist Church's Family Life Center.Dr. Blythe 1:07:48
Okay.
David McPherson 1:07:51
By 1870, all Black members had petitioned and petitioned for and received their
letters of dismissal from the Lancaster Baptist Church. In 1871, a lot was purchased on South Paulding Street and Duncan---in the Duncan town settlement, and the present edifice was erected in 1959, and the building was nearly destroyed by fire, but its members later labored to restore it. That's kind of000but I mean, the history was quite a bit different. Lancaster Baptist Church, you saw it when you came in. You came in from [Highway] 52. The first lights you come to the big church on the right--right hand side, that's Lancaster Baptist.David McPherson 1:08:31
And--this is where the church came from. And I think in 1851, that was twelve
years before emancipation. Am I right, 1863, '51. Y'all help me out, my math ain't all that, but I think it was a few--let me say it's pre-emancipation, and for them in 1851 to petition [chuckles] for--. I mean, to even think about saying, 'listen, we want our own separate services.' That was a bold move. And it was a---it was a courageous move. You know, 1851 and then in 1854, to petition again and then---and again and to keep pushing. And I think there was a radio show I listened to; I don't know if you know, but it's the Alan Hunt Show. And they were talking one time about the greatest day in Black history, in the history of Black people. And I was listening to everybody say everything, and I sent an email, and I said, "the greatest day in Black history was the day of resistance." The day we started to resist slavery, was the greatest day in our history. Because then we start to move forward.David McPherson 1:09:44
If you don't resist oppression, then it pushes you further back. When you resist
it, you start to move forward. And I think that this resistance to be anything less than to have their own, was great. And I think--kind of think we lost it that. I really do. I think I really---I think I preached the sermon on this at a church anniversary, and it was called pretty much like the sermons of the eulogy, but it was theology and history. And I think that---that Black people---Israel---downfall was they remember their history and they forgot the theology. They forgot their theology, but I think Black people have lost their history, and that's the reason why they have also lost their theology. When you don't know who you are, you don't know whose you are. If you recall, when Israel came out of Egypt, and they got so far, the big multitudes started to murmur, and they said, you know, "give us meat." And then, then the Israelites started saying, "yeah, we remember the fish and the leeks and all the stuff we had in Egypt." And they rebelled against God. They rejected the gift of God. They rejected the manna, you know, "we don't want this old manna, you know we--." And you remember your history, they remember their history and forgot their theology. But Black people have lost their theology because they have forgotten their history.Dr. Blythe 1:11:20
Interesting.
David McPherson 1:11:21
I mean, you---you think---I went to up----the peace walks around here. Asked the
young people, "who are you doing this for?" "Because my mama told me to come up here." [laughs] It's sad, and I think, I really think that rejecting the history of slavery is a downfall. Because to reject that portion of history is to reject theology. History is what we've accomplished, what---theology is what God has accomplished through us and what we do--. You know, Israel was---was commanded to remember that you were strangers in a strange land, you were slaves in Egypt. And that's the history, but God says, "and I brought you out," that's theology. And when you don't know your history, when you forget that you were a slave, and you really believe that Abe Lincoln signed it on his own. I think it was divine intervention. I think it was God. I think God sat on his Mighty Throne and said, "it's time for slavery to end."Dr. Blythe 1:12:30
Do you think one of the reasons that individuals are reluctant to remember and
so forth, to some degree, pain or embarrassment or anger. But do you think those kind[s] of emotional things contribute?David McPherson 1:12:46
I think they do. I think they do, but I think when you---when you come to know
your history and who you are and what other---what pains other people have been through. You know it's just--it's Christianity, we remember when we are going through our suffering and pains, to look at the cross. And I think as Blacks, we think that it's painful to look back, let's remember how painful it was for those who made that history. Much more painful than it is to look back, for those who made that history.David McPherson 1:13:18
A young couple talked to me, and they were confused as to why their mother
accepted mixed relationships, but their grandmother didn't. I said, "sweetheart. They come from two different times. Grandmother come from the time when mixing was forced. Mom came from a time when mixing is the choice now." And she said, "I never looked at it like that." And I said, "well, when you get--when you get in the times, you know, when you get into history, you start to understand why the older generation--. You know, I mean, back in the days, it was terrible for---and I know you grew up around here, you know, all the, all the, all of the unrest about some---some mixing thing [chuckles] going wrong, but now it's--- when I was in school, it was uncommon. You--you don't---don't play that game. Even though we did it, we did it behind closed doors, but now it's wide open at Garrard County High School. You can date who you want to and it's not a big problem, but when I was in school, it was--and may I mention, I went to the prom with a white, and she caught it. [chuckles] Not from the school, but she caught it at home, and from some other people in the community. But you know, again, it's--and everything is painful. You know, no pain, no gain. Anything that you get easy, there's something wrong with it.Dr. Blythe 1:14:42
What kind of advice would you give to young people based on your life
experiences, both within the church and before you entered the ministry? What kind of advice would you give to younger generations and hopefully to future generations?David McPherson 1:14:59
Oh without (??)--I have to say first is know yourself. You know, know who you
are. Because if you don't know who you are, I mean, you're lost, basically--. You know, think of a person with amnesia they're--where are they? They're in a state of limbo trying to figure out who they are. But know who you are, and then once you know who you are, be yourself.David McPherson 1:15:26
Don't try to impress anybody--do things for you. I used to say at Berea College
all the time when I was up there with coach and people'd get mad, "I ain't playing for coach no more." I mean, that's the biggest mistake young people make. Now, play for yourself, don't play for the coach. So, when the coach makes you mad, or, you know, when you go to school, go for yourself. And I know mom wanted me to go to college, no, you got to do it for yourself. If you do it for somebody else, pretty soon it becomes insignificant. Achieve for yourself and not for anybody else, you'll go a lot further. People make you mad, you want to get back at them, you--what do you do, drop out of college? [chuckles] Who does it hurt down, the long way--it hurts you. So, I mean, do it for yourself, so if you get mad at mom, then you were never doing it for mom. So, it doesn't cross your mind.David McPherson 1:16:14
But you know, know who you are and be who you are and what you do, do it for
you. And if you do it--for yourself and to your standards, guess what, people will be a lot more satisfied than if you're trying to do it for them. Because believe it or not, you're never going to satisfy the person that you're trying to satisfy. They always got places they want you to go when you achieve one rank, they want you to reach for the next one and reach for the next one, but you gotta do it--do it for yourself. You know and--I--church is, know who you are and know what you believe. Know who's you are, and know what you believe, don't, don't say I'm a Missionary Baptist. And I mean, you don't even know what Missionary Baptists believe. And then you know, don't be a Missionary Baptist and reject Missionary Baptist doctrine. And if that's what you are, then be that.David McPherson 1:17:05
The greatest thing is to know who you are in Christ. You know, we did an
exercise here, and I wrote on a piece---I had two pieces of blank paper, and one of them asked---I had one paper. "Now, who are you, write everything you know about yourself. And write everything you know about yourself." And then, second paper says, "tell me who you are in Christ." Guess which one was the longest? Yeah, but we know about ourself [ourselves] and Apostle Paul, you remember what he says when--he gives his little biography there, I think it's in Philippians, he says, "I'm a Hebrew of Hebrews. Circumcised the eighth day of the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee, touching the law, blameless." And then under that, he says, "but I count all these things as but done, that I might win the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ."David McPherson 1:18:02
So, the first part, when I was talking about out of religion, you know--know
yourself, but in religion, know that who you are is because of God and your degree and how much money you got and where you live. It doesn't mean anything. You're just like everybody else. Just like the poor man, you're a sinner, saved by grace and what you got. Another thing, Apostle Paul says, "I am what I am, by the grace of God." You know, it's really, it's not because, you know, we go through that and some guy says, "well, I got my house because I got a job." And I said, "okay, who gave you health and strength so you could have a job?" [laughs] and he thinks, "Dave, you're messing with me." "No, I'm not messing with you. You're messing with yourself because you denied that you are what you are by the grace of God. And when you do that, you mess with yourself," you know. But--Dr. Blythe 1:18:51
So, how would you describe, just kind of summarize the important values and
beliefs that you have carried through your life?David McPherson 1:19:01
They have guided me--I've found out that when I have accomplished---you know,
things. And when I went to the military, I was---I believed in being on time, I believed in study, I believed in---and so, I progressed from a private to sergeant in two years. I made Staff Sergeant, in five years, I was promoted all the time. In the secondary zone, which means I had to have a waiver one way or the other. And then the way I treated people, the way I got along with my soldiers. And now some--some people would tell you they weren't always good. I wasn't very well liked when, when new people came to my section. And likewise, I expressed that in the church, when I enter in, to me, it's truth. And I think that some beliefs I learned, I learned---they were reinforced in the military, and then later on in ministry, like military leadership.Stacey Roberts 1:20:04
I'll just pause this (??).
David McPherson 1:20:05
Okay.
Dr. Blythe 1:20:07
Just go ahead. And so, in any summary comments about important values and
beliefs. You talked about how the military has influenced your Christianity, any other particular values or beliefs that you'd like to highlight?David McPherson 1:20:24
Truth and [chuckles] honesty and integrity. Those--those three, I think, are
very important. If you're not true, then you're not who you say are.Dr. Blythe 1:20:47
Is there anything else you'd like to share with us about your your life in
general, or in Garrard County, or things that pertain to the church or?David McPherson 1:20:56
[My] Life was changed in the military, I'll say my view on life was changed in
the military in Central America. In 1982, I spent three months in Central America during the---in Honduras, Puerto Castillo, Honduras. Where children, younger than, I was twenty--I went down at twenty-one, came back twenty-two years old. I thought I was young, but the soldiers there were fourteen, fifteen, years old. And it just had--just the war-stricken country, it just had. In fact, that ended my military career. That's when I decided that I was getting out of the military. And central Honduras, just war torn. They used to recruit--we'd go to a soccer game, or you go to a nightclub. Well, the nightclub was a concrete block structure with no roof and no windows, but I mean, it was a nightclub, we had good times. But soldiers would surround the--either the soccer field or the nightclub, and every male that came up was now in the military.David McPherson 1:22:11
And I was just about to---and just the things I saw there, and I knew I didn't
want to be a soldier anymore. I knew that I wasn't a career soldier, and even though I did--still did three years, completed a three-year tour in Germany before I got out after that, but I was determined that I was not doing twenty years in the military. And traveling, meeting different people, you know, and traveling through the world. Germany, I spent five years in Germany, just meeting different people, and I traveled all over Europe, I traveled to--to England, the Netherlands, Austria, Italy, and just seeing all different kind of people.David McPherson 1:22:55
And Germany was my first experience in being the only Black in a place and not
feeling uncomfortable. And I walked into kind of a bar/restaurant, and nobody turned around looked, you know. [laughs] And I'm thinking, 'what's wrong.] [laughs] And, I mean, it really felt good to--to be in a place, and everybody was, you know, of course, nice, nice, and talked to you and gave you direction[s], and made a lot of friends in a lot of different countries and throughout--throughout--the world. Been to a lot of states in the United States, but I've only seen the backwoods because--on field exercises.David McPherson 1:23:36
Fort Campbell was probably, the most memorable of the two was Fort Campbell,
Kentucky, because we never stayed at Fort Campbell, we were always gone. It was a great place; we did a lot of humanitarian stuff at Fort Campbell. Fort Lewis, Washington, Fort Campbell 101st Airborne Division and my first--second station before Fort Campbell was [the] Ninth Infantry Division, in Fort Lewis Washington. And my very first duty station was [the] Third Infantry Division in Germany. My first actual permanent duty station was Sennelager--not Sennelager but Kitzingen, Germany. And my last duty station was 59th Ordinance Brigade, 22nd United States Field Artillery Detachment, center, Sennelager, Germany. And that's where ETS [Expiration of Term of Service] from. I was--received the rank of staff sergeant. I served as a howitzer gun--Chief Field Artillery Gun Chief. Team Chief Atomic Projectile Assembly team. I served as a senior custodial agent, which was in charge of a storage site for classified materials.David McPherson 1:24:55
I served with the fifth---British--Fifth British Corps. In that I---a storage
monitoring drug and alcohol. Other things that I might have done. A very influential fellow on my life in the military was a young man from--he was a first sergeant from Arkansas. First-First Sergeant, Johnny L. Carey (??). And he had a bunch of little sayings. He'd say---he'd get us out, and he'd say, "you don't want to, don't want to mess with John L. Carey, because I'm, like, a Tootsie Roll, I last a long time." [laughter] And--just---but he was--he was stirring it. That's--I remember when I made--first made E-5 [sergeant] and I didn't really want to leave the unit, didn't want to leave a Battery Second or the Fourth. And he said, you know "you--you moved up." He said, "you put those stripes on, and you got to break away from the guys you hung out with, because now you're NCO [non-commissioned officer], and I'll never forget that.Dr. Blythe 1:25:55
Oh, thank you, Reverend McPherson, is that it? --We want to thank you for
sharing so much with us, a good balance of conversation, good transition, and we just want to thank you for your time and your willingness to help us with our project. And we'll be talking more with you to find out more about the history and the kinds of things that you are attempting to do here in Lancaster.David McPherson 1:26:26
Thank you.
Dr. Blythe 1:26:26
Thank you.
Stacey Roberts 1:26:27
Thank you. [End of interview]
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