Interview with Peggy Jones

CAROLYN CRABTREE: This is Carolyn Crabtree. I'm in Campbellsville, Kentucky with Peggy Jones. Today is November 13, 2009. We're here to discuss the genealogy of the McDowell/Mitchell/Crawford family that was connected with the McDowell House. Peggy, thanks for meeting with me today to do this. We're just gonna be very informal about this; I would like to just have you just tell me what research you've done and how you've found the relationships of all these families that are connected with Dr. McDowell in some way or another and Jane Todd Crawford. So, let's let you start.

PEGGY JONES: Ok. My name is Peggy Moore Jones, the great granddaughter of Rachel Crawford and Thomas Mitchell. My father was William Reed Moore, son of Elizabeth Crawford Mitchell. She was the daughter of John Addison Mitchell and John 1:00Addison was the son of Rachel and Thomas. Jane Todd Crawford was the wife of my great-grandmother's brother. There are no Todd/Crawford descendants left in Green County that we know of but many Crawford/Mitchell descendants still reside here. The McDowell/Mitchell family connection -- Ephraim McDowell, the great-grandfather of Dr. McDowell came to America in 1729. One of the children that accompanied him was Margaret McDowell; she later married William Mitchell. William was the uncle of Thomas Mitchell who was the brother-in-law of Jane Todd Crawford, and Thomas Mitchell was married to Rachel Crawford, a sister of Thomas Crawford. It is also recorded that the Mitchells and Crawfords were related. Margaret McDowell Mitchell was the grand aunt of Dr. McDowell and the 2:00aunt-in-law of Thomas Mitchell. This leads me to believe that the Mitchells and McDowells would have known each other and also the fact that they all came from Rockbridge County, Virginia. Quoting from the annals of surgery in May 1979, "Jane Todd Crawford was 8 years old when Dr. McDowell was born and both in Rockbridge County, Virginia. There's no proof that these two young people knew each other. However, their parents could scarcely have failed to have some acquaintance, since both families were early settlers and were people of substance and enterprise. During this period when this entire area of a part of Botetourt County, Samuel Todd was the county sheriff. Also in 1779 Liberty Hall Academy, a Presbyterian School was established in the immediate vicinity of the 3:00Timber Ridge Presbyterian Church. The Mitchell family history states that the years of schooling for Thomas Mitchell were 1775-1787 and it is probable that his tutelage outside of the home was at the Liberty Hall Academy, which later became Washington and Lee University." Then I have the Mitchell family history which says that "In the autumn of 1805 the Crawfords and the Mitchells left Rockbridge County, Virginia, traveling the Wilderness Road through the Cumberland Gap and on to their new home in Green County." The deed in their joint purchase of Kentucky land is indexed under Crawford and Mitchell and recorded in the Green County deed book on September 1, 1805. The records show that Thomas Mitchell share included the site of Camp Knox and Skinhouse Branch, 4:00which we know is the site of the Longhunters' Camp. Their journey to Kentucky as stated in some documents is that the two families shared an oversized wagon drawn by two oxen and I have found this in several of my readings. But in the Mitchell history that I have, it states that Thomas Mitchell introduced bloodied horses into the Green River country known as the Wilkes Trotting Stock and that he used two teams of this breed for his wagon rather than the oxen. And the trip to Danville in 1809, records are unclear as to who accompanied Jane Todd Crawford on their three day journey on horseback to Danville on that cold December day with the possibility of all sorts of encounters along the way. I have a copy of the Kentucky Medical Journal which was published in 1942, and it 5:00has the story written by George Madden Martin. And George evidently was a woman--.

CRABTREE: Oh, really?

JONES: Because it goes on to say that she tells of Jane Todd Crawford and the great experiment as it came down through the family of Thomas Howell Crawford. Thomas Howell was the youngest son of Jane Todd Crawford and was the third mayor of Louisville. The story was taken from the family journals and from the memory of stories told to children. So this story verifies to me that her husband Thomas did accompany her on this historic journey, although there's some evidence that he did not, maybe from some of McDowell's writings and whatnot but--.

C: I don't know where they get the idea that he did not come with her.

J: Well, they've said that through some of McDowell's, you know, writings.

C: Is that where?

J: That's where that comes from.

C: Ok.

J: But this medical history is from family memories and it very much has Thomas accompanying her.

C: Now there was a Thomas Crawford that lived in the Perryville area of Mercer County at the time, Boyle now. Is it possible he could've brought his wife here and then stayed, were those family members maybe? Or have you run across anything that shows that they were related?

J: No.

C: Because they married -- Thomas Crawford, I believe, married a Crow who was connected with John Crow that built the fort, or built Crow's Station there in Danville. Of course, he was killed early by a slave, but I've often wondered if the Mitchells and the Crawfords in the Boyle County area are connected with the families here. And I believe they must be, but we haven't been able to find any 7:00connection yet. Have you done any research on that at all?

J: No. Then I have the connections of, you know we've talked about the connections between Jane Todd Crawford and Mary Todd Lincoln, and the information that I have on that and this may be a little confusing, but from published notes taken by my Uncle Thomas Cleland Moore, who was the great grandson of Rachel and Thomas Mitchell. He had letters from a Mrs. Clementine Railey to him concerning the Mitchells and Crawford family history. Jane Todd Crawford and Mary Todd Lincoln were descended from two of the brothers who settled in Pennsylvania, Jane's grandfather Samuel Todd and Mary Todd Lincoln's great grandfather David Todd. And then I've come across this book, Forerunners of Lincoln by Lucien V. Rule, Lucien V. Rule, which I have found really 8:00interesting and it has a lot of information in it about the Todd family. And it states that Reverend John Todd Sr., of Pennsylvania and Virginia, son's name was John Todd, Jr. who was Parson Todd.

C: Is that a name or a title?

J: Well, he was a minister and they called him Parson Todd, and there's a lot of information in -- that's the book there.

C: Forerunners of Lincoln.

J: Forerunners of Lincoln. And Parson Todd, let's see -- "John Jr. was the first cousin of Colonel John Todd, General Robert Todd and General Levi Todd. Levi was the grandfather of Mary Todd Lincoln. Owen Todd and Samuel Todd Jr. were also first cousins of this Parson Todd." Of course, Samuel Todd was the sheriff of Boutetourt, and that's B-o-u-t-e-t-o-u-r-t. Boutetourt. In the Mitchell book 9:00which I feel like is a grammatical, is an error in the spelling.

C: I believe it is.

J: It has it Betatote, but most places I find Boutetourt, Virginia. Anyway, Samuel Todd was sheriff there in 1791-1792 and was born about 1738 and died in 1812. Samuel Todd, Jr., was grandfather of Mary Louise Gibson of Newport, Kentucky. Mrs. Gibson is certain that these Todds were all cousins of Mary Todd Lincoln which is abundantly proven through the fact that Dr. Samuel S. Todd, cousin of her grandfather and author of the Todd family history was a grandson of Owen Todd, a great uncle of Mrs. Lincoln. These facts give the old Todd-Wolford home near Goshen a new historic interest as the years go by and the story in this Forerunners of Lincoln is about beautiful Jane Todd, who was Jane 10:00Todd Crawford's niece and she was the daughter of Major John Todd and who was--

C: Was he the one that was at Bryant's Station and uh was killed at the Battle of Blue Licks or something?

J: I didn't find that in. It's Goshen, Kentucky's around Prospect, isn't it? Yeah. So I would like to sometime go there and see what information, but it says that Jane Todd Crawford's brother bought the old Todd-Wolford home place near Goshen in July 1818. And being the son of Samuel Todd, Jr. of Boutetourt County, Virginia, he was a near cousin of Mrs. Lincoln. Also in this Forerunners in which at the very end of one of the chapters it says that "Mrs. Jane Todd Crawford, the brave and heroic woman upon who Dr. Ephraim McDowell of Danville, 11:00Kentucky, performed the first famous operation, an abdominal surgery, was a sister of Major John Todd who built the old Todd-Wolford home and she was, of course, an aunt of beautiful Jane Todd." It seems that they visited the Todds at Goshen in the early days. And Dr. Schachner of Louisville in his brilliant biography of Dr. McDowell sought diligently to place this Mrs. Crawford in her relationship to the Lincoln Todds and it was to his satisfaction to verify that relationship fully.

C: Ok.

J: So--

C: So the Todds that were at Goshen, Kentucky, they are related to a brother of Mary Todd Lincoln?

J: As I say, that gets very, very confusing you know when you go through all of this.

C: Well, we'll sort it out when we listen to the tapes again.

J: Yeah.

C: Some of the references that you mention, Forerunners of Lincoln, are those books still available in print, or do you know?

J: Well, I checked and it says that Centre College had a copy and I told Stuart about it, because he's a Todd descendant and he wants to do something--

C: Right.

J: And I think in Louisville, the library in Louisville has -- I wish it could be reprinted because it is just -- I've read it, gone through it twice.

C: Do you know if it's in public domain? It would be, wouldn't it?

J: Probably so, it's 19--, 1926 I think. And it is also mentioned in --, I don't know whether you're familiar with this. That was in 1935 when they --

C: The Jane Todd Crawford Memorial.

J: Yeah.

C: Ok. No, I'm not familiar with this but it's in the medical journal.

J: Yeah.

C: Ok.

J: And at the very end.

C: Yes, I am. I think the McDowell House has reprinted this.

J: They probably have.

C: They may have already reprinted this one, too.

J: But I think that in some of my reading, other than this Forerunners, I have run across Lucius Rule name.

C: Oh, really? Who was he now?

J: Well, he was a Presbyterian. Actually, I was talking about the home in Goshen. He talks about -- that's where he grew up, also.

C: Now all these people were Presbyterians when they came here, right?

J: Yeah.

C: Some of the Todds may have been connected with Elijah Craig traveling church, but I'm not sure.

J: You were talking about Father Rice here. Reverend Rice is named in the obituary of Thomas Mitchell. Mary Jane, that's his sister -- "Mary Jane's youngest brother as pastor of the Presbyterians who erected their Ebenezer, the church in Green County of which Thomas and family were members" and of course Father Rice was the one who started the --, and I'm gonna, if you've got time today, I'm gonna take you by Jane Todd Crawford's, where she lived, where the cabin is.

C: I have the whole day; we can do whatever you like.

J: And then we'll come back through and I'll show you Ebenezer.

C: That's fine; I'd like to see it.

J: Ebenezer's my home church so--.

C: Now you also mentioned the history of the Mitchell family. Who wrote that?

J: Well she is Lilly Mitchell; this is it.

C: And when was it written?

J: Back in the '50s, or 1950 or 60.

C: Is that available to people to see or do you know?

J: Well we've made copies of it; it's in the Green County Library and she sent it to -- "the death of Lilly Elmer Mitchell, on March the 6th , 1959, left unfinished her labor of love, in writing the history of the Mitchell family and their allies named."

C: They're never finished.

J: But we owe her so -- we owe her.

C: Well are those available for people to make copies?

J: Well, I have made copies for people, so I mean I could get Hayes Printing to make a copy.

C: I'd like one very much.

J: That's the beautiful Jane Todd.

C: She was pretty. And she was William Mitchell's wife?

J: Yeah, she married William Mitchell and I--

C: Lived here in this area?

J: No, in Goshen.

C: In Goshen.

J: John Jr., who was Thomas Mitchell's -- John, Jr. Mitchell was Thomas Mitchell's father and his brother William Mitchell. The history, Allin's history, gives a story about William Mitchell.

C: Allin's?

J: Allin's History of Kentucky; are you familiar--.?

C: Ok, yes. Ok. I know what you're talking about now.

J: So that William Mitchell went, seems like Garrard County or ...

C: Garrard County?

J: Garrard County. Yeah, I believe. I feel sure that she married a William Mitchell and I'm sure that that was still the Todds marrying the Mitchells.

C: Right.

J: She had another, Samuel Snowden who was so smitten by her and that's in 17:00there. He wrote all this beautiful poetry to beautiful Jane Todd and she didn't marry Samuel and she married William who had been married before and was an older man and whatnot. But anyway that tells the story in there about their relationship. And this Green County map I was -- here's Mt. Gilead and the Skinhouse Branch, and whatnot, and then here we come -- this is the trail that I'm sure she's taken through here. And she came by Ebenezer and then crossed Roachville, it says she crossed Roachville Ford. That was a little blurred.

C: So from her place she's going Northwest, where Ebenezer --.

J: Where Ebenezer is now, at that point it was a log church which is probably about a mile from where it's located now.

C: Oh, really? Is there a cemetery out there?

J: Ebenezer cemetery. Yeah, in the old Ebenezer cemetery is where the old church used to be and it's all grown up, but we're planning --.

C: Are any of these descendants buried there at Ebenezer?

J: Well, I will show you where the Mitchells are buried today; they're buried on the old Mitchell estate. Here's their --

C: Where is the old Mitchell estate?

J: I will come by there today and I'll show you this is -- you'll see this place still is there and then this is the highest point on that farm. You have to go through a cow pasture and whatnot to get to it, but this is Rachel Crawford's stone and this is Thomas Mitchell's stone.

C: Well, for the tape, give me an idea of where this is.

J: Ok, it's up near the Longhunters' Camp.

C: Ok. Alright. Well, that's easy to find.

J: And we are hoping that at some point we can get a grant, you know, to get that cemetery. The stones are broken and this is my niece, who's holding that stone up so we can --, and it's not really accessible, you know you've got to get with the farmer.

C: Who owns the property?

J: Barkley Hancock. We've been up there a couple times. It's been quite a while since we've been but it's a beautiful setting when you drive along that road you look and it's just a little grove of trees on the highest point of that, but that was part of the Mitchell's.

C: Now are there Revolutionary War soldiers or anybody like that buried in there cause if there are the federal government will--

J: Now the old Greensburg, I mean the old Presbyterian, Ebenezer Presbyterian cemetery has a couple of Civil War veterans in it and that is one that we would 20:00like to get. But this one's, the cemetery interred in addition to our great grandparents several of there children and grandchildren and one grandchild and then it lists who's buried in the old Mitchell cemetery. There's--

C: So there is a Thomas Mitchell buried there.

J: Thomas and Rachel are buried there and his son John Addison and his wife Amelia are buried.

C: So most of these died around the 1850s and '60s, these people. So are they still allowing people to be buried in that cemetery or is it just--

J: No.

C: Ok. So in a sense it's abandoned, I guess they call it.

J: Yeah it's one of those things.

C: Well, tell me how you've accomplished your research; what have you been doing 21:00to get this information?

J: Well, I've just, everything that -- I've got this three ring binder on Jane Todd Crawford and every time I come across something just like this was Sam Moore who was a lawyer in Greensburg who died just recently and he's a distant cousin of mine. This was his file, and I brought it up to copy some things and I found this interesting. I didn't realize; this is something that Stuart Sanders wrote back in humanities--.

C: Kentucky Humanities Magazine.

J: In 2003.

C: He's a very good writer.

J: Yeah.

C: He really is. He's written quite a bit on the Civil War.

J: I copied that to put in my book and then I've copied this, which we have a hard time with the -- You know our Arts Council is reprinting or we're in the 22:00process of reprinting this medical journal. And anyway, we're having a hard time getting "Greensburg." In here it was called -- let me see the old copy, Jane Todd Crawford in "Greenville."

C: Oh, really?

J: Then this at this--

C: Was it Greenville back then?

J: No.

C: Or was it always Greensburg?

J: In its early days it was Greensborough.

C: Right.

J: And it was, you know, changed to Greensburg. But in this book he talks about Jane Todd Crawford of "Greentown."

C: And what is that book?

J: That's the one, the Jane Todd Crawford Memorial in 1935. So we're sort of 23:00coming up with this thing "Where in the World is Greensburg, Kentucky?" The history's not getting us straight. But anyway, I've just been fascinated and five years ago is when the Arts Council started doing the Jane Todd Crawford story.

C: Ok, I was going to ask you about that.

J: We do that each year on Jane Todd Crawford Day which is, of course, December the 13th.

C: So it's your Arts Council that does that?

J: It's our Arts Council and you will later be talking to Suzanne Bennett, who is our Jane Todd Crawford.

C: And a very good one. You do that on December 13?

J: December 13th.

C: Every year?

J: Every year. Yeah, or we have for the past -- this'll be our fifth year and four years ago we started the creative writing contest for 5th grade students 24:00and so Suzanne Bennett and Warren Wolfe. Warren accompanies her; he's a classical guitarist and he accompanies her with music from that period and they go to the fifth grade class and she does a monologue of the play, a shorter version for them. And then they can interview, talk to her, and ask questions and whatnot and then they're assigned --. This year we're going to be giving four prizes, the $75 for the first prize and $50, $30, and $20, I think. And so that's been very -- it's grown each year.

C: Is that just for Green County students?

J: Green County students.

C: Or other counties as well?

J: Yeah, Green County. And so this year they're all in the same. We did have Pierce Elementary and Summersville Elementary up until this year and they built a new elementary for that. So they're all at the same place now so they only had 25:00to do one, but they said it was very well received and the teachers seemed to be encouraging the students but they can get on the internet and the library and do research and we feel this way like the first group that we did are now I guess junior high. So every child that comes through the system, if we continue doing this, then every child will know the story of Jane Todd Crawford and maybe we'll have some historians.

C: Right. Do they also go up to the McDowell House during this time or does that have -- that's just a teacher thing.

J: Yeah, they have some teachers --.

C: Whatever they decide to do?

J: Yeah.

C: You mentioned to me before we started the tape that all of these families came from the same part of Ireland.

J: Ireland, yeah.

C: Would you like to talk about that a little bit?

J: I don't unless I can find it in my book. I just knew it. It's in this Mitchell history that the McDowells and the Crawfords and some of the other families were from the same area.

C: Do you know of other family names that are here that are connected with these? Could you just name a few of them off? Or, I mean I know every time someone marries you add a name. But how far back do you know other names that are part of this family? I mean brothers and sisters.

J: I don't really -- like the McClures and most of these families, of course Green County seemed to be that all these families came through Green County and then moved on. And just like I said, the Mitchells, and of course we don't 27:00really think of ourselves as, but we are part Crawfords so the Mitchell/Crawford family are the only ones.

C: It just seems odd to me that you've got the Mitchells and the Crawfords living within four miles of each other in Boyle County in the very beginning, I mean 1700s, early. And then you've got Mitchells and Crawfords living here, early. It's very had for me to believe that those would not be related to each other some way. But there has to be a connection;, there just has to be, but I don't know how you would go about finding. We've tired.

J: Yes, yeah, I'm sure.

C: And the ones there came up, they came up through the gap as well and of course one of them, his wife was killed, she was a Shipley. And the Berries were 28:00connected with this family. Do you have anything in your records that would connect the Berries or the Shipleys or the Thompsons to any of these people?

J: No, I know that Jane Todd Crawford's sisters were already -- they came to Green County before. She had two sisters that came to Green County before they came and that was part of the reason for coming to Green County was because they had relatives already here.

C: Well that's the reason some of these came, because they had relatives here already. Why did they choose Green County do you believe?

J: Well, in Rockbridge County there was the --, I read someplace where there had been a fire. They had a nice brick home that they lived in that was John Jr's 29:00that passed on to Thomas. And then there was a fire and the lack of water was part of it. They knew that Green County was full of springs and water was plentiful and whatnot, and they -- and it says in there at some point that they felt that that was part of the reason that drew them to this part.

C: So it wasn't land grants for military service or anything like that.

J: Well, and it turns out, that the Johnsons, who they sold their property to in Rockbridge County, is who they bought the property from in Green County.

C: So they swapped out essentially.

J: So it was kind of a swap. Yeah.

C: Ok. Well, that makes sense. I've heard of other situations like that, in fact just recently.

J: I was trying to find something. Turn that off and --

C: Say that again.

J: No don't turn that on yet. My, my, I'm getting to the age where I don't always, things don't always come out like I plan for them to, but there was dispute over land there and that they weren't uh--.

C: In Pennsylvania?

J: In Pennsylvania, and that's why they moved on to Virginia.

C: I don't know. Ok, well do you mind reading that again.

J: Ok. "When the Mitchells first came they settled in Pennsylvania but--"

C: In western Pennsylvania?

J: Yeah. "-- but the push for it was to the western counties of Pennsylvania where the Scotch-Irish were offered land at a low cost that the Quakers and the Dutch settlers who were already established in the state. A historian of one of 31:00the southern Pennsylvania counties surmised that the settling of that part of the state as follows, 'The Scotch-Irish were not afraid of anything. They were ready to fight, and did fight the Indians, so the Quakers and the Dutch who were afraid of the Indians were glad to give them land to settle in western Pennsylvania to settle for protection of their farms and interests.' Generally the Scotsmen from -- 'Uth-is it Ulster or Utster?

C: Don't know.

J: "-- were regarded as fearless, adventuresome, creative, and on the move, all of which are pioneering traits. They were ready to conquer American wilderness and did." And then there was some problem with land in Pennsylvania and so that's why land was free or whatever and I guess it was free to the takers in Virginia. They were trying to settle that part?

C: I'm not sure if that's what it was or if they the people who owned the land got so much money for each person that they settled on their land or something like that.

J: Yeah.

C: I believe -- didn't Dr. Ephraim McDowell's grandfather Ephraim McDowell settle on the Beverly Grant?

J: Hmm, I don't know.

C: That was there, I think they were the first ones who settled. They had met this man overnight somewhere on the road and he said if they would come and show him how to get there then they could have a thousand acres. So one of the sons took him up on it and they took him to the Beverly grant and they received land there. If I'm not mistaken, they're the ones who did that.

J: That's the picture of the old Mitchell home in Rockbridge County and it was 33:00the one that said that there was a fire. I mean, it didn't burn, they had to -- it didn't destroy it but it did do some damage to it.

C: Is that home still standing or do you know?

J: I don't know. It was at the time that this was written.

C: Have you been to Virginia yourself to see any of this?

J: No. And they were, John Jr. and John Sr. were -- John Jr., that was Thomas Mitchell's father and grandfather, were buried in Rockbridge County but anyway a site that had overgrown and whatnot. Some of their descendants put a stone up in the Lexington, Virginia Cemetery. That was in here somewhere.

C: Is that the memorial to the McDowell family? No, that's different, isn't it?

J: That's to the Mitchells, this was John Sr. and John Jr. who came over from Ireland.

C: So that is in Lexington, Virginia?

J: Lexington, Virginia. Yeah.

C: I also know there's one to the McDowells over there somewhere that is on four sides has different inscriptions to the different family members. They can't be too far apart from each other. Do you know what church they were associated with there in Virginia?

J: Well, that Timber Lake Presbyterian Church is one that's mentioned. And, it seems like it there was --. Another thing, of course, at the time of John Sr. and John Jr., the Episcopal Church was the church, and they didn't recognize marriages that were performed by Presbyterians and in here they talk about they couldn't find who married some of these people 'cause they were married by 35:00Presbyterians and it wasn't until like the middle 1700s or so was when Presbyterians were allowed to--.

C: So that's why some of the marriage records are missing?

J: Missing, Yeah.

C: That's interesting. I know that a lot of the people that settled in the Boyle County area, Mercer County at the time, were from a little place called Cub Creek up there in Virginia and that's where David Rice actually came from. He had been the pastor there for them and then he went on to some other churches but they invited him to come to Kentucky to be their pastor here. So that's how he happened to get here.

J: Yeah, I think somewhere in here it tells about Father Rice and, anyway he's mentioned you know in the Mitchell history. Here you were talking about Timber 36:00Ridge, "the McClures were neighbors to the Mitchells and the Porters and members of the Timber Ridge Church. Mary's first cousin Jean Porter, the mother of Nell Providence, daughter of William Porter III, brother of great-great grandmother Margaret Porter Mitchell, married a McClure, --"

C: Do you know what his name is?

J: "Who's thought to be the brother of Andrew." And there was a Reverend Andrew McClure --

C: Wow.

J: -- that was a friend of Dr. Rice. They worked together and whatnot.

C: So the McClures are also part of the families in Danville.

J: I don't know, the McClures that are you know, still in, -- there are no McClures left in Green County.

C: Well, there certainly are in Boyle County.

J: Yeah.

C: And I know they've been there very early, since very early times. What about 37:00the Barbee Family that was down here, do you see any connection to them with any of these people?

J: I don't know--.

C: Because the Barbees were also prominent people up in the Boyle County area. In fact, Elias Barbee, who was from Green County, which is now Taylor, part of Taylor County, he was the man who got the school for the deaf started. He had a deaf daughter, and their home is still standing; he built a home for one of his daughters that is still standing here in Taylor County.

J: Hmm.

C: Betty Jane Gorin-Smith took me out there to see this home one time; it's in terrible shape--.

J: Umm.

C: But it was still standing a few years ago when I went. Now, they were here so early and the early Barbee was like an officer, so I'm wondering if there isn't 38:00a connection with them as well.

J: This says the Episcopal Church was the state or established church of Virginia up until January the first, 1777.

C: Ok.

J: All other denominations were called dissenters.

C: Right.

J: So, up until that time their marriages weren't recorded.

C: I know also Dr. McDowell's family they were Presbyterians but then they went over to the Episcopal Church before he died, and helped start the Episcopal Church there in Danville. Or at least his wife did. That's interesting, too, that they were the ones that were dissenters in Virginia.

J: Yeah.

C: And they went over to the other side. Well, is there anything else you'd like to share with me today?

J: Well I'm sure there's lots more. But I can see about getting you a copy of this.

C: I would like one. Ok, well thank you very much.

J. Ok.

C: And maybe we'll think about some other things that we'll have questions about later.

J: Yeah.