Oral History Interview with Kathleen Drummond, October 1, 2009

Partial Transcript: Would you please state your name.

Segment Synopsis: Drummond served in the Marines from 1943 to 1948 and earned the rank of First Lieutenant. Drummond was born in 1918 to farmer parents in Clark County, Illinois. Drummond attended a one-room schoolhouse and graduated from high school in nearby Martinsville, Illinois in 1935. Drummond moved with her mother and brother to Terre Haute, so that Drummond and her brother could pay in-state tuition at Indiana State University. Drummond and her brother graduated from Indiana State in 1939, majoring in business and social studies respectively. Since neither of the siblings could find teaching jobs due to the Great Depression, they decided to attend graduate school at the University of Illinois. Drummond states that her parents paid for the siblings' tuition, but money was tight, with her parents driving from Clark County up to Champaign weekly to provide their children with groceries. Drummond taught typing and business classes to students in order to make extra money. Drummond also worked in the WPA National Youth Administration program. Drummond and her brother graduated from the University of Illinois in 1940 and both were able to find teaching jobs, with Drummond relocating to Charleston, Illinois.

Keywords: College; First Lieutenants; Franklin D. Roosevelt; Grades; Master's degree; National Youth Administration; One-room schoolhouses; Social studies; Tuition; WPA

Subjects: Apartments; Brother; Business; Business teachers; Champaign (Ill.); Charleston (Ill.); Childhood; Clark County (Ill.); Commute; Early life; Education; Education, Higher; Family farms; Farmers; Food; French teachers; Great Depression; Groceries; High school; Housing; Illinois; Indiana State University; Martinsville (Ill.); Mother; Nurses; Parents; Roommates; Rural; Siblings; Students; Teachers; Teaching; Terre Haute (Ind.); Typists; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Works Progress Administration; University of Illinois; Women; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: And my brother had suggested that . . . I should join some branch of the service, but not the--uh--WACS (Women's Army Corps).

Segment Synopsis: Drummond wanted to join the military in part due to the encouragement of her brother. Drummond's brother was drafted into the Army in 1943 and Drummond and her roommate initially signed up for the WAVES in 1943. When the Marines began accepting women, Drummond and her roommate decided to switch their applications to the Marines. Drummond wanted to join the Marines because it was a smaller organization than the WAVES, and also thought that her business background would be more useful in the Marines. Drummond and her roommate were both accepted to the Women's Marine Corps and because they both had a master's degree, they were admitted to officer candidate school.

Keywords: Master's degree; Officer candidate school; United States. Women's Army Corps; United States. Women's Naval Reserve; WACS

Subjects: Brother; Christmas; Draft; Education, Higher; Organization; Parents; Patriotism; Roommates; Teachers; Teaching; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Marines; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: And in July, we were notified that--both of us--were accepted for the--uh--OCS, officer's candidate class.

Segment Synopsis: Drummond attended officer candidate school at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. Drummond recalls that the men and women were separated by a barbed wire fence and people had to have special permission to leave their assigned zones. Drummond's training lasted eight weeks and mostly focused on the history of the Marines rather than combat or weapons training. Drummond and the other eighty women lived in one big room with bunk beds. Drummond recalls that Eugenia Lejeune, the daughter Archer Lejeune, the camp's namesake, was in her training group. Several female sports celebrities were also in her training group. Drummond remembers that the barracks had to be kept neat and clean, with officers going through the room with a white gloved hand each morning during inspection.

Keywords: Archer Lejeune; Bunk beds; Demerits; Eugenia Lejeune; Officer candidate school; Second Lieutenants; Sleeping quarters

Subjects: Airplanes; Camp Lejeune (N.C.); Celebrities; Church; Cleanliness; Illinois; Men; New River (N.C.-W. Va.); Shoes; Train; Training; Travel; Uniforms; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Marines; Washington (D.C.); Women; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: So what--what was your assignment specifically after--

Segment Synopsis: Drummond recalls that six women were chosen for PX school out of her officer candidate school class. Drummond underwent training in accounting for four weeks at the U.S. Navy headquarters in Washington, D.C. At the end of her training, Drummond wanted to be placed in San Diego, but got assigned to the Mojave Desert instead. Drummond admits that she did not know that the Mojave was a desert and was glad to be going out west. Drummond went home to Illinois for Christmas and then left for Mojave in late December 1943. The Mojave Marine Corps base was only six months old when Drummond arrived and all the facilities were new and modern. Drummond recalls that there were fifteen female officers at the base, with her commanding officer being very supportive of women serving in the military. Drummond also mentions that former Stanford University football player Hal McCreery was also stationed at Mojave.

Keywords: Assignment locations; Audits; Commanding officer; Female officers; Hall McCreery; Marine Corps Auxiliary Air Station, Mojave; PX officers; PX school

Subjects: Accounting; Alabama; Bookkeeping; California; Christmas; Football; Illinois; Kansas; Men; Military; Mississippi; Mojave (Calif.); Mojave Desert; San Diego (Calif.); Stanford University; Train; Travel; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Marines; Washington (D.C.); Women; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: So were you a--division officer--were you--what was your--um--when you were assigned to the PX--what was your--what was your role?

Segment Synopsis: As a PX (post exchange) officer, Drummond was responsible for the maintenance and calculations associated with cash registers at different establishments on the base, including a barber shop, a beauty shop, a tailor, and a drycleaners. Drummond recalls that the barber was initially opposed to women being in the military, but later changed his stance. Drummond states that the barber was assigned to go to Los Angeles with the beauty shop operator to buy beauty supplies and the barber took offense to being assigned duties with a woman. Drummond says that the beauty shop owner and the barber became friends and later got married. Drummond explains that the Mojave air base was a shipping point for sending troops and supplies overseas. Drummond also mentions that women in the military were not permitted to serve outside of the continental U.S. until 1945. Drummond states that she enjoyed her job, since it utilized the skills she learned in college, including marketing and management skills. Drummond recalls Mojave being a hot climate and somewhat difficult to navigate without air conditioning.

Keywords: Barber shops; Beauty shop equipment; Commanding officers; Drycleaners; Grass; Landscape; Marine Corps Auxiliary Air Station, Mojave; NCO Club; NCOs; Non-combatants; Non-commissioned officers; Post exchanges; PX officers; Troops

Subjects: Barbers; Beauty shops; Business; California; Cash registers; Change; Climate; Discrimination; Dogs; Friendship; Haircutting; Heat; Los Angeles (Calif.); Management; Marketing; Marriage; Men; Mojave (Calif.); Mojave Desert; Money; Naval aviation; Prejudice; Sand; Sexism; Shaving; Tailors; United States; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; Women; Women veterans; Work; World War II

Partial Transcript: There was--I had about sixty employees.

Segment Synopsis: As a PX Officer, Drummond managed sixty men and women. Drummond states that the logistics of her job were complicated, since the number of troops shipping out from Mojave varied, requiring Drummond to order extra supplies frequently. Drummond recalls that the Marines could purchase on the open market unlike other branches of the military, which prompted Army and Navy personnel to ask Drummond to order engagement rings from a jewelry store in Los Angeles, so that they could propose to their girlfriends. Drummond enjoyed the ability to purchase items on the open market, including directly from the manufacturer of military gloves in San Francisco. Each month, Drummond and the other members of the PX team calculated the total amount spent at all of the establishments on the base. Drummond explains that employees were required to work into the night, since they had to perform these calculations by hand. Once the total was calculated and re-checked, the figures were sent back to headquarters in Washington D.C. Despite these challenges, Drummond says she enjoyed her work and liked to use her math skills.

Keywords: Marine Corps Auxiliary Air Station, Mojave; Open market; Post exchanges; PX officers; Troops

Subjects: Business; Calculators; California; Engagement rings; Gloves; Inventories; Jewelry stores; Logistics; Los Angeles (Calif.); Management; Marriage; Mathematics; Men; Mojave (Calif.); Mojave Desert; Money; Purchasing; San Francisco (Calif.); Supplies; Training; United States; United States. Army; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Navy; Washington (D.C.); Women; Women veterans; Work; World War II

Partial Transcript: What about after the war is over and--um--tell me, did you get out of the military or did you stay in the military?

Segment Synopsis: After World War II ended, the Mojave air base was transferred over to the Navy and Drummond was placed on terminal leave and stayed on to assist with selling the PX inventory to the Navy. Drummond stayed at Mojave until February of 1946 and was officially discharged and promoted to captain in 1958. In retrospect, Drummond views World War II to be a time of great patriotism and believed that it was better to be in the military rather than having to work to support the war as a civilian. Drummond was shocked at how quickly the war ended and then wanted to move on from the military since she felt it would not be the same organization during post-war time. After Drummond's work was completed with closing out the Marines' operations at Mojave, she was ready to become a civilian and left the military.

Keywords: Civilians; Discharged; Marine Corps Auxiliary Air Station, Mojave; Mess halls; PX Officers; Rations; Terminal-leave

Subjects: California; Emotions; Inventories; Learning; Military; Mojave (Calif.); Mojave Desert; Patriotism; Rationing; Training; United States; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Navy; Women veterans; Work; World War II

Partial Transcript: And what did you learn from your military experience? What did you take with you?

Segment Synopsis: Drummond learned self-respect and organizational skills from her military service. Drummond worked as a professor at the University of Louisville College of Business for over four decades and says that her military service influenced her teaching style. Drummond used her accounting experience in the military to become a business professor. Prior to joining the military, Drummond was unable to teach high school accounting in Illinois, since many of her male colleagues believed that teaching math-heavy subjects was a man's job. Drummond recalls that while she was in graduate school at Indiana State, women were encouraged to take secretarial science courses instead of disciplines that involved more math. When Drummond returned from the Marines, she decided to look for business professor positions. Drummond was able to find a position teaching business at the University of Louisville, but initially only taught courses in office administration. Drummond says that she was opposed to these limited options for women in business and fought behind the scenes for women's rights. Drummond recalls that many companies such as IBM wanted their female graduates to have a bachelor's degree instead of an associate's degree, which could be limiting for many students.

Keywords: IBM; Job placements; Secretarial science; Typing; Women in business

Subjects: Accounting; Administration; Brother; Business; Business education; Cold War; Dean; Discrimination; Education, Higher; Illinois; Indiana State University; International Business Machines Corporation; Louisville (Ky.); Mathematics; Organization; Prejudice; Professors; Respect; Responsibility; Secretaries; Sexism; Shorthand; Students; Teachers; Teaching; Typists; Undegraduate; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; University of Louisville; Women; Women veterans; Women's rights; Work; World War II

Partial Transcript: Do you think that life is better for women today?

Segment Synopsis: In the late 1950s, Drummond decided to study for her PhD in business education at Northwestern University after she had received tenure. Drummond says that she was the only female faculty member at the University of Louisville College of Business from the early 1950s to the mid-1970s. Initially, Drummond received pushback from one faculty member at the University of Louisville, who informed her that the school did not want women over forty to be PhD candidates and said that women were too emotional to complete a PhD. Drummond says that this was the first instance of discrimination she had experienced. Drummond eventually earned the respect of this professor and was granted permission to take a year in residence at Northwestern. Drummond used her GI Bill money to complete her PhD and says it took her three years to finish her dissertation. Drummond's dissertation topic explored the sexism and discrimination that female secretaries faced when attempting to re-enter the workforce after starting a family. Drummond studied the hiring procedures of companies in Louisville and determined that many CEOs and personnel managers practiced age discrimination against secretaries and did not like to hire female secretaries over thirty-five. Drummond explains that this rampant sexism against female secretaries impacted a woman's job prospects, since they had been trained in business and had few equivalent alternatives to make a living.

Keywords: CEOs; GI Bill; Managers; PhD; Tenure; Women in business

Subjects: Ageism; Beaches; Business; Business education; Children; Courses and lectures; Discrimination; Dissertations, Academic; Education, Higher; Families; Feminism; Louisville (Ky.); Marriage; Motherhood; Northwestern University; Personnel management; Prejudice; Professors; Recitations; Research; Respect; Secretaries; Seminars; Sexism; Teaching; University of Louisville; Women; Women veterans; Women's rights; Working mothers; Writing

Partial Transcript: . . . What was your most memorable experience in the military?

Segment Synopsis: Overall, Drummond enjoyed her military service and recalls that she worked in the NCO club to prepare food often. Drummond says that inspections were performed by the military every day, since every business on the base was run by the Marines. Drummond states that the base was growing rapidly and added a beauty shop and a bowling alley prior to her arrival. Drummond recalls that the base had so many businesses that it was a like a miniature small town Main Street. Drummond explains that some officer candidate school and basic training courses were conducted at Mojave. Drummond adds that there were fifteen female officers on the base and several female nurses who were in the Navy. Drummond remembers that the weather in Mojave was very hot and frequently had strong wind gusts, with one enlisted woman breaking her shoulder because of the wind. Drummond recalls that it got up to 120 degrees in the daytime, but cooled off at night. Drummond believes that women should be allowed to serve in combat if they want to and advises women in the military to work hard.

Keywords: Assistants; Cars; CEOs; Commanding Officers; Injuries; Main Street; Mojave Corps Auxiliary Air Station, Mojave; NCO Club; NCOs; Non-enlisted Officers; Officer candidate school; Officer training; Officers; Post exchanges; PX Officers; Wind; Women's exchange

Subjects: Barracks; Basic training; Beauty shops; Beef; Beer; Bowling alleys; California; Climate; Construction projects; Cooking; Doughnuts; Food; Hamburgers; Heat; Kitchen appliances; Memories; Mojave (Calif.); Mojave Desert; Nurses; Patios; Roommates; Sand; Soda fountains; United States. Marine Corps; United States. Marine Corps Women's Reserve; United States. Navy; Women; Women in combat; Women veterans; World War II