Oral History Interview with Donna Nelson Scrivener

Partial Transcript: --Um--Donna, why don't you state your name, your branch of service, length of service, and your area of specialty?

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener served in the Navy for eighteen years, working as a surface warfare officer and an engineering duty officer. Scrivener was born into a military family, with her father serving in the Navy for twenty-seven years, including tours of duty during World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. Scrivener was motivated to join the Navy in part by her background as the daughter of a Naval officer, and her father instilled in her a sense of obligation to give back to her country. Scrivener was offered an appointment to the U.S. Naval Academy as one of first female classes, but turned it down in favor of attending SUNY Cortland to study anthropology and psychology. Scrivener recalls that her father was very emotional about her decision to join the Navy, and wanted to ensure that his daughter was making the decision to join of her own accord.

Keywords: Engineering Duty Officers; Naval officers; Officer candidate school; Temporary Early Retirement Authority (TERA); TERA; Warfare Service Officer

Subjects: Anthropology; Education, Higher; Engineering; Father; High school; Korean War, 1950-1953; Military; Military families; Newport (R.I.); Psychology; Siblings; State University of New York. College at Cortland; United States Naval Academy; United States. Navy; Veterans; Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: I went to officer candidate school . . .

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener entered officer candidate school in 1982, with the intention of becoming a Protocol Officer. Scrivener became interested in a competitive program called Women at Sea, which allowed female Navy officers to gain practical experience at sea. Scrivener and one other OCS enlisted signaler were selected for the program. Scrivener finished in the top five of her class at the OCS, and was sent to Newport for the seventeen week program. Scrivener faced discrimination and harassment from her male colleagues, who often shoved her in the hallways and verbally abused her. Despite the adversity she faced, Scrivener finished at the top of her class in the program. Scrivener recalls that women were not allowed to spend the night on battle ships, but one instructor allowed her to have this experience. Through Women at Sea, Scrivener learned how to perform administrative duties on the ship and had lessons on ship handling.

Keywords: Battle ships; Class rankings; Instructors; Officer candidate school; Officers; Ports; Protocol officers; Ships; Submarines; Surface Warfare Officers; USS Proteous (Ship); Verbal abuse; Women at Sea Program

Subjects: Anthropology; Coronado (Calif.); Discrimination; Guam; Harassment; Men; Newport (R.I.); Prejudice; Psychology; Repair ships; Rockets; Safety; Sexism; United States Naval Academy; United States. Navy; Violence; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: So, you go off to your next assignment--

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener's first assignment was as an Administrative Officer aboard the USS Proteous, which had Guam as its home port. Initially, Scrivener's boss was incredulous at the idea of a woman being an officer, but once she proved herself, she gained his respect. After a month and a half of serving as an Administrative Officer, Scrivener's boss determined that she was overqualified for the position and was promoted to Repair Division Officer in the Engineering Department. Scrivener found the job challenging, since the USS Proteous was a World War II-era ship. Scrivener was originally scheduled to serve on the ship for 18 months, but enjoyed it so much that she extended her service period to 42 months (from 1982 to 1985). Scrivener states that female Navy personnel on the ship did not have their own bathrooms, and had to put up a sign to indicate that a woman was in the restroom. Scrivener adds that the women on the ship shared state rooms together, and there was a mix of different officers on the ship, including supply officers and medical officers. Scrivener says that women were not allowed in combat in the Navy during this time.

Keywords: Administrative officers; Auxiliaries Officers; Female Naval officers; Repair Division Officers; State rooms; Supply officers; USS Proteous (Ship)

Subjects: Administration; Bathrooms; Discrimination; Engineering; Guam; International travel; Men; Nineteen eighties; Ocean; Repair ships; Sexism; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans; World War II

Partial Transcript: What was your--after that, where did you go?

Segment Synopsis: After finishing her assignment on the USS Proteous, Scrivener worked as a Ship Ward Management Instructor at Naval Base Coronado. In this role, Scrivener mainly instructed ensigns through ship driving simulations. Scrivener initially encountered some sexism and discrimination from her ensigns, but soon overcame these difficulties by earning their respect.

Keywords: Ensigns; Instructors; Ship Wards; Ships; Simulations

Subjects: Coronado (Calif.); Discrimination; Education; Men; Naval Base Coronado (Calif.); Prejudice; Respect; San Diego (Calif.); Sexism; Training; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: Then they decided finally that we could be Department Heads.

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener trained to become a Department Head at Newport, Rhode Island in engineering. Scrivener became one of the first female chief engineers in the Navy. Scrivener's training lasted for about six months and she became certified as a Tactical Officer. Scrivener recalls feeling frustrated at being forced to memorize Soviet weapons and radars, even though women were not allowed to be in combat. Scrivener received the highest score in her class for submarine warfare training. Scrivener also mentions that she met her husband while they were both serving on the USS Proteous. The couple got married and lived apart during their newlywed days, with Scrivener being stationed in Newport for department head school, and her husband attending submarine head school in San Diego. Scrivener experienced discrimination from her classmates in department head school, and was shoved, tripped, and teased by male students. Scrivener did not report these incidents to her husband or higher-ups because she was focused on completing her stressful curriculum while her husband grappled with his own educational challenges out in San Diego.

Keywords: Chief engineers; Combat training; Department heads; Husband; Submarine Head School; Submarines; Surface Warfare Officers; Tactical Action Officer; USS Proteous (Ship)

Subjects: Abuse; Certification; Cold War; Competition; Correspondence; Courses and lectures; Discrimination; Education; Engineering; Engineers; Frustration; Harassment; Indian Ocean; Marriage; Newport (R.I.); Prejudice; San Diego (Calif.); Sexism; Soviets; Stress; Students; Submarine warfare; Teachers; Teaching; Teasing; United States. Navy; Violence; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: So, you finished Department Head School.

Segment Synopsis: Following specialized training in firefighting and engineering at the Great Lakes, Scrivener was assigned to be the Chief Engineer on the USS Jason, a World War II--era repair ship. Scrivener worked on the USS Jason for two years and recalls that there were approximately 200 enlisted women out of 1800 Navy personnel on the ship. Scrivener recalls that fraternization amongst young enlisted men and women on the ship was an issue, with many unplanned pregnancies occurring. Many of the enlisted men were hoisting the problems associated with the young women on to Scrivener since she was a woman. Scrivener resented this, and called on the enlisted men to teach one another about birth control and safe sex practices. Scrivener also states that many men took advantage of their higher ranking to have relationships with enlisted women. Scrivener found serving on the USS Jason to be challenging professionally, since many male officers and enlisted men had difficulties in separating their personal lives from their professional lives. Scrivener observed that female officers were more focused and had their priorities in order. Additionally, Scrivener's predecessors in her position struggled to run the ship effectively, since the Chief Engineer was assigned the blame when things went wrong on the ship. Scrivener says that she was able to manage the ship more effectively than her predecessors.

Keywords: Advanced training; Chief engineers; Dcotors; Department Heads; Enlisted men; Enlisted women; Female officers; Firefighting; Husband; Junior officers; USS Jason (Ship)

Subjects: Administration; Behavior; Birth control; Blame; Dentists; Engineering; Fraternization; Lawyers; Marriage; Men; Mentoring; Repair ships; Responsibility; Safety; San Diego (Calif.); San Francisco (Calif.); Sex education; Stress; Training; United States. Navy; Unplanned pregnancy; Women; Women veterans; Work-life balance; World War II; Young; Youth

Partial Transcript: Okay. So, once you finished that assignment . . .

Segment Synopsis: After her two-year stint on the USS Jason, Scrivener was approached about becoming an Executive Officer, which would require her to be deployed. Scrivener turned down the offer because she wanted to start a family and did not want to run the risk of being deployed away from her children. Scrivener then decided to switch her career trajectory towards non-combatant positions, which did not require deployment. Scrivener then attended the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterrey, initially studying mechanical engineering with the intention of going into non-combatant shipbuilding. Scrivener struggled with the difficult curriculum, since she had a baby and was pregnant with her second child. Scrivener then switched over to computer science. Scrivener completed her Master's in Computer Science in about 2 and a half years, and enjoyed having more time with her family.

Keywords: Ammunition ships; Amphibious ships; Baby; Curriculum; Deployment; Engineering Duty Officers; Executive Officers; Family; Husband; Master's degree; Non-combatants; Ships; Support ships

Subjects: Anthropology; Careers; Children; Computer science; Construction projects; Database design; Education; Engineering; Engineers; Maintenance; Mechanical engineering; Monterrey (Calif.); Naval Postgraduate School (U.S.); Pregnancy; Psychology; San Diego (Calif.); Shipbuilding; Shipyards; Transfer; United States. Navy; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: And then when I got my d--got a master's degree in Database Design they--um--sent me to the . . . Defense Information Systems Agency, DISA, which was a joint command out of Washington, D.C.

Segment Synopsis: After finishing her Master's Degree in computer science, she was assigned to work at the U.S. Defense Information Agency (DISA) in the Greater Washington D.C. Area. Scrivener was based out of Sterling, Virginia, and her primary job responsibilities were to maintain the Global Command and Control System and to install new systems and upgrade software. Scrivener says that she worked with many Bosnians and that the federal government was adding new Global Command and Control sites in eastern Europe. Scrivener did not like working at DISA, in part because her superiors were not Navy commanders and also since she was unaccustomed to working with civilians. Scrivener observed that the Amy commander who served as her boss was very controlling and micromanaged employees. In contrast, Scrivener had more positive experiences with Air Force personnel, who all tended to be more laid-back and had a hands-off approach to managing their subordinates. Scrivener liked the unforgiving sense of responsibility and accountability given by Naval personnel, but also enjoyed the freedom and the flexibility offered by the Navy at the same time.

Keywords: Balkans; Civilians; DISA; Eastern Europe; Global command & control sites; Global Command & Control System; Officers

Subjects: Authority; Bosnia and Herzegovina; Bosnians; Computer science; Culture shock; Database design; Federal government; Freedom; Government contractors; Leaders; Leadership; Men; Military; Pentagon (Va.); Responsibility; Sailors; Software architecture; Sterling (Va.); United States; United States. Air Force; United States. Army; United States. Defense Information Systems Agency; United States. Navy; Washington (D.C.); Women veterans

Partial Transcript: That's when I chose to take the early retirement.

Segment Synopsis: After working her way up the Naval hierarchy, Scrivener was offered the chance to be a commander or to retire early from the Navy. Ultimately, Scrivener chose to retire from the Navy, since there was no guarantee that she would get to command in the Navy even if she obtained the rank of Commander. Scrivener also wanted to have more time with her children, who were then in nursery school. Scrivener ended up retiring to Kentucky with her family. Scrivener says that her tour of duty on the USS Proteous was her favorite, since she was young and had no other commitments but work. Scrivener enjoyed working with the men in the repair office to learn how to fix submarines, especially since the men treated her with respect and would often test her knowledge. Scrivener also has fond memories of looking out at the stars while aboard the USS Proteous as it sailed along the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. Scrivener also enjoyed the opportunity to share her experiences of being in the Navy with her father for the first time (who also served in the Navy), which brought them closer than ever before.

Keywords: Lieutenant Commanders; Nursery school; Staterooms; Submarines; Temporary Early Retirement Authority; TERA; USS Proteous (Ship)

Subjects: Children; Early retirement; Enthusiasm; Father; Indian Ocean; Learning; Maintenance; Men; Nature; Pacific Ocean; Repair ships; Retirement; Satisfaction; Stars; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: Which assignment was your most difficult, and why?

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener says that her work as the Chief Engineer on the USS Jason was her most difficult job assignment in the Navy. Scrivener had to overcome challenges associated with the condition of the ship, which were in part caused by mismanagement from her predecessors, and pressure from colleagues to make the ship better organized. Scrivener recalls that the USS Jason had not passed an inspection in ten years. Scrivener rose to the challenge by requiring that her subordinates organize and complete all paperwork. Initially, Scrivener's male subordinates resented taking orders from a woman, but Scrivener won their trust by improving working conditions. For instance, Scrivener when observed that the Naval personnel coming off from their night watch shifts did not have enough rations to eat, she went up the chain of command to the Supply Officer, who allowed the personnel to have steak for their rations the next night. Scrivener states that she asked questions frequently to show her interest in the problems and procedures on the USS Jason.

Keywords: Chief engineers; Commanding officers; Food service officers; Paperwork; Rations; Repairs; Shifts; Ship inspections; Supply officers; USS Jason (Ship)

Subjects: Confidence; Discipline; Discrimination; Engineering; Engineers; Food; Leaders; Leadership; Maintenance; Organization; Pressure; Racism; Repair ships; San Diego (Calif.); Sexism; Standards; Steak; Success; Trust; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: Did you--uh--ever feel at--uh--in any danger at all during your service?

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener states that she felt like she was under attack by her fellow students at times while attending department head school, since she suffered verbal abuse from her classmates. Scrivener recalls a dangerous situation in which fuel had flooded into a ship's switchboard operating room by accident. Scrivener says that the switchboard operator was afraid to turn the ship's electricity off without authorization from a higher-up. Fortunately, Scrivener got the situation under control and no one was hurt. Scrivener learned from her military service how to speak up for herself and how to exert authority over subordinates. Scrivener also developed her leadership skills while in the military.

Keywords: Department head school; Electrical equipment; Switchboard operators; Switchboard rooms

Subjects: Authority; Classmates; Danger; Discrimination; Electricity; Engineering; Engineers; Floods; Fuel; Harassment; Leaders; Leadership; Men; Prejudice; Safety; Sexism; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: --Um--what advice would you give young women today who serve in the military? Or who are interested in serving in the military?

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener advises women who are interested in joining the military to be prepared to make a choice between being in the military or being a young mother. Scrivener believes that women who have children in their twenties are shortchanging their children and their careers at the same time, since being on active duty during a child's early years is very difficult on families. Scrivener suggests that women who go into the military must be prepared to delay having children until they have their careers established, typically in their thirties. Scrivener had her own children when she was 33 and 35, respectively, which allowed her to be with her children for most of their childhood. Scrivener also states that women in the military today still have to be better than men in equivalent positions and that women need to be determined in order to succeed in the military. One disappointment in Scrivener's Naval career is her lack of experience working on ammunition ships, since an opportunity to work on one was denied to her because she was a woman.

Keywords: Active duty; Ammunition ships; Battleships; Chief engineers; Department head school; Gas turbines; Non-combatant ships; Sacrifices; Ships; Tradeoffs

Subjects: Careers; Children; Design; Disappointment; Discrimination; Engineering; Engineers; Families; Family planning; Men; Pregnancy; Prejudice; Sexism; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans

Partial Transcript: . . . You majored in anthropology and psychology? And yet, you went into very technical fields in the Navy. --Um--how did you get that interest and that passion for these technical fields . . .

Segment Synopsis: Scrivener explains that she was initially reluctant to be placed in technological fields by the Navy, since her background was in the humanities. Scrivener thought that she would not like learning about STEM, but she enjoyed naval engineering. Scrivener recalls that she constantly asked questions and analyzed the explanations of different colleagues in order to understand naval engineering better. At officer candidate school, Scrivener was not afraid to ask Junior Officers questions and was a flexible learner. Scrivener and her female colleagues observed that the Navy was not maintaining a consistent record of the accomplishments of women in their branch of service, which prompted the female officers to create a newsletter highlighting women breaking barriers in the Navy. Scrivener was thrilled when her colleagues could no longer publish the newsletter, since so many women were breaking barriers all it once, it was impossible to consolidate all of these achievements into one newsletter.

Keywords: Administrative officers; Commissioned officers; Junior officers; Officer candidate school

Subjects: Communication; Computer science; Engineering; Engineers; Explanation; Interpersonal relations; Listening; Men; Newsletters; Repair ships; Technology; Undergraduate; United States. Navy; Women; Women veterans