Shurtz: It is June 11th, at about…10:50, my name is Clinton Shurtz, and I’m in
Hickman County, in the town of Clinton, interviewing…World War II veteran Bud Schwartz.Schwartz: Right.
Shurtz: And…thanks Bud for, for talking to me today.
Schwartz: Well, no problem.
Shurtz: And…first you got to tell me about—you just, you just told me that you
grew up in Centralia, but tell me about growing up in Centralia.Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Centralia, Illinois.
Schwartz: Yeah it just…I was a farm boy and…other than that, nothing unusual, I
just…grew up like any other kid.Shurtz: When did you…move to…Clinton?
Schwartz: We moved here after World War II.
Shurtz: Okay.
Schwartz: I don’t know exactly what year, but we’ve been here since ’46, I think.
Shurtz: And so tell me about your
1:00military experience. Did you go in whenever you were eighteen, or…right out of high school, or… Schwartz: I think I was, I think I was eighteen. Time gets away and…I, I have an unusual way of forgetting things [Chuckling] but…we, we love it down here, we, we really like it.Shurtz: So you, you…tell me about your military background.
Schwartz: I was, I guess fortunate, I was a navy test pilot and I flew the, you
know, you forget but I think I flew twenty different kind of planes.Shurtz: Whoa!
Schwartz: And…I was fortunate I didn’t have any problem with any of them we, we
2:00all got along together pretty good [Chuckling].Shurtz: What are some kin…kind of planes that you flew?
Schwartz: Well, we’ve, I flew…I guess everything that the navy had, far as I
know. You, you tend to forget a lot of things that you did really, but…and the planes, really…the guys that took care of the upkeep of them did an excellent job. I, I flew I think, probably twenty different kind of planes and I didn’t…I didn’t have any trouble with any of them, we, we all got along pretty good together. 3:00Shurtz: Mm-mm. So during the, the Second World War, where were you stationed?Schwartz: I was, you know, I, I was stationed diffe…different places…most of the
time I was, I never wa…was in any battle or anything, I was all, always just a test pilot.Shurtz: Was just a test pilot?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: But did you go to other different countries, or did you stay in the
United States?Schwartz: I stayed in the united s…United States.
Shurtz: Yeah.
Schwartz: Yeah, I didn’t, I didn’t, didn’t never leave this country. I was real
fortunate, I, I guess as far as planes was concerned I, I got along real, real good with all of them. I…I 4:00wasn’t one of these guys that tried to do some things that a plane wasn’t designed to do, I, I…I was real fortunate in that, I…did what the plane was supposed to do and nothing more or less. This is when I, when I was a cadet. I was also cadet and this is that, that plane there is a PV-1 I think is a, what that was, that was a twin engine plane, it was the fastest twin engine until the P-38 came out and it, it…had two, two thousand horse motors on it.Shurtz: Oh!
Schwartz: That’s pretty fast.
5:00Shurtz: What kind of a plane is that?Schwartz: Ha! That’s a…you know, I, I don’t really know but it’s a, just
a…that’s a goof-off plane [Laughter – Shurtz and Schwartz], goof-off picture there.Third Party: (Whispers) Okay.
Schwartz: That, that’s a PV-1 there, that’s…they call a diamond formation. This
is a lead plane, course this is, that’s actual a combat formation… Shurtz: Hum!Schwartz: …at that, they call that, I think they call
6:00it a diamond formation, I believe, I’m not real sure. It…but that, that biplane was a PV-1 that was...Shurtz: This picture says PV-1 in Lockhead Hudson?
Schwartz: Lockheed, yeah Shurtz: Lockheed Hudson and…it starts… Third Party:
Traverse City.Shurtz: Traverse City, Michigan, third flying these at Eagle Mountain Lake, 1943
to 1944.Third Party: That.
Schwartz: Yeah, that’s, that’s a PV-1 now that’s, that was a real fast twin
engine until the P-38 came out and it was a little faster. This was the fastest bomber, that’s the actual, actual bomber there that’s not a, not a fighter plane.Shurtz: When
7:00you tested planes, did you test out bombs as well, did you ever drop test bombs?Schwartz: Oh yeah, we… Shurtz: Yeah?
Schwartz: …we dropped some but not…not any…any amount I don’t think.
Shurtz: Yeah. Where would you do that? Out, maybe out in the desert, or…
Schwartz: Yeah we, we, we were in a, well it wasn’t in an area that was very much population… Shurtz: Yeah.Schwartz: …around it. We, we [Chuckling] we always liked to get out, we, one,
once in a while we catch a fox or something out in the, we’d throw, had little old test bombs they were about that long but they made a lot of noise and catch one of them out in the open area and drop one behind him, he’d, he’d get with it. Of course you always had some, had to have a little fun along.Shurtz: Mm-mm.
8:00So, as part of the testing, did you…did, did you usually fly with other people during the testing?Schwartz: Huh… Shurtz: Did you fly in formations and it, was that part of the
testing? Or… Schwartz: Sometimes, most of the time it was…it was not, you’re, u…usually you were just…by, by yourself and I mean there wasn’t any other planes involved.Shurtz: Did you ever have any…scary experiences, as far as plane malfunctions or
anything like that?Schwartz: Well, really…a, a plane was designed and you didn’t have any problem
unless you got a little silly [Chuckling], every once in a while you might do something different, but not too often. 9:00I always respected the plane, I didn’t, I didn’t figure they were designed to goof off.Shurtz: By, by goof off you mean like doing flips and tricks and things…
Schwartz: Yeah… Shurtz: …like that?Schwartz: Yeah. I, I did my share but I didn’t…I didn’t ask more of that plane
than it was designed to do, because you could, you could get in a lot of trouble in a hurry if you goof off too much.Shurtz: Did you learn to fly in the military, or did you… Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: …learn ( )?
Schwartz: Yeah, I learned to fly in the military, I had no other ex, experience
other than just, I think I was up one time before I got in a military plane.Shurtz: How long does it take, how, how long did it take you to…in training
before they let you fly by yourself?Schwartz: Before your solo, usually it took, I would say
10:00at least six, seven months, something like that, because you…they didn’t…they didn’t want to lose pilots, and they didn’t want to lose planes either because they were, they were sh…kind of short of planes. You…if they…every once in a while, a youngster get out and he’d show off a little bit, they get his number, they’d, they’d…usually ground him or that would be the end of his flying, one or the other. But I never did, I never did ask more of a plane than they were designed to do.Shurtz: So during the war, you, you were just testing out planes. Was there ever
a chance that you might go to war, or did, 11:00or was that never… Schwartz: Well that, it was always a possibility, but…usually what, they were, what I did, I just…tested planes, but…not very often did you want to stick your neck out. I ne…I never was, I never was one of these that asked more of a plane than they were designed to do, because they, they get you in trouble in a hurry if you mistreat them, but…most of, most of the time, I was, I would say, on the careful side, I never did ask more of a plane than they were designed to do.Shurtz: So, you know, do you remember how many years you were in the military?
12:00Schwartz: I was in about three and a half years.Shurtz: Three and a half years?
Schwartz: Yeah, mm-mm.
Shurtz: And then…you got out and you moved here?
Schwartz: Yeah, I moved here in ’46 I think it was, that was, I guess the war
was, was about over then, anyway. We, we really like it down here, my brother-in-law had a lot of land down here, it’s the reason we moved down here, to be. We really like it down here.Shurtz: So, tell me about your, your family.
Schwartz: There is a picture of my children.
Shurtz: Oh, I see. Four children?
Schwartz: Mm-mm. The boy on the right, he died fairly young. He, he was a…really,
13:00he could take a little old radio that nobody else could get to work and he, he’d fool around with it and he’d get it to work, and he was, he had a good mind. Then he died fairly young. The, the girl on the bottom, she’s got a CPA business in Clinton now. The older girl works out of Martin, Tennessee, and the boy on the left, he’s a, he lives right up the road from me, he’s, he’s a farmer.Shurtz: Hum. So, is that what you did? Did you farm?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah, what kind, what, what did you farm?
Schwartz: Well I, I did…just
14:00general farm, nothing, nothing unusual.Shurtz: Any, any livestock or… Schwartz: Yeah, I always had, and I still got
about fifty cows.Shurtz: Yeah.
Schwartz: Yeah I, I always, I always like to fool with cattle.
Shurtz: And then…wheat and corn?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: That yeah.
Schwartz: Yeah it…general, I guess you’d call it general farming.
Shurtz: Just like in southern Illinois farming. That’s what we do there too.
Schwartz: Yeah [Chuckling]. Are you from southern Illinois?
Shurtz: Yes, we are from Tamaroa.
Schwartz: ( ).
Shurtz: About thirty miles from Centralia.
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah. I know, I know Centralia because we…we would take a…there’s a lab
up there I believe, to take animals 15:00get tested or something, I, I recall… Schwartz: Oh yeah.Shurtz: …I went up there as a kid taking certain animals to Centralia.
Third Party: We had a nephew was there too I think. Don’t you have some nephews
there, Mr. Bud? They have apples and then they’re in the oil? Yeah, the oil ( ).Schwartz: Yeah, I worked in the oil field part of the time when I was growing up.
Shurtz: In Centralia?
Schwartz: Yeah, in that area, yeah. They had quite a bit of oil around that
area. They always…they paid good money in the oil field. Part of the time I drove a team 16:00and moving dirt this, a lot of time moving pipe around here and there.Shurtz: Did you…continue to fly after?
Schwartz: No, I don’t think I, I may, might have gone up one time since I got
out of there. I wasn’t, I guess you’d say, all that crazy about them.Shurtz: And your wife is she, is she still living?
Schwartz: Huh, no, my wife has passed away. She is, now she’s, she’s been gone,
I don’t know just how many years, but several.Shurtz: Were you married before or after the war?
17:00Schwartz: I was married in, I guess during the war.Shurtz: Oh!
Schwartz: Yeah I… Shurtz: Where did you meet her at?
Schwartz: Huh, they started a, a junior college up there. I was in the same high
school she was but I never, never did know her until I got in junior college. That’s where I met her.Shurtz: I’m trying to think of the name, do you know the name of that college?
Schwartz: Centralia Junior College.
Shurtz: Oh Centra…Centralia Junior Colllege?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: So during the war do you…do you remember the rationing, that sort of
thing that, that, that affect you much?Schwartz: No really, really didn’t.
18:00I was aware of it, and if you had a uniform on, you could just about get anything you needed [Laughing].Shurtz: I see. Where did you, do your basic training at?
Schwartz: I think just in that general area there in… Shurtz: Oh, around Centralia?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah you didn’t… Schwartz: I di…I wasn’t…shipped out very far from home.
Shurtz: Do you have many other friends that were in the war, people you knew?
Schwartz: Yeah I had, we had several…there was, I guess, probably three of us
that sort of bummed around together. We…we all three wound up being navy pilots… 19:00Shurtz: Oh!Schwartz: …which is kind of unusual. This one of my…friends that was a navy
pilot, he is in California now.Shurtz: Oh!
Schwartz: Time gets away. He is, he is a Oklahoma farm boy.
Shurtz: Yeah? So you said during your, your, your testing planes you were in
different areas of the country, where, do you remember some of the places you were at, some places you went to?Schwartz: Well the…most of the time is just in the…in the general area of, I
guess St. Louis probably.Shurtz: Okay. Was…Scott Air Force Base around then?
20:00Schwartz: Yeah.Shurtz: Was that still…okay.
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: And what this is a picture of?
Schwartz: That’s the picture of a bunch of officers.
Shurtz: Okay. This picture is from January 1945.
Schwartz: I don’t know if I can even find myself on there. I think it’s right
there, I believe, the second one there, I think.Shurtz: Oh, I see. And what is, what is…after Lieutenant JG, what does that mean?
Schwartz: Lieutenant JG is the same as first lieutenant in the… Shurtz: Okay.
Schwartz: …in the army.
Shurtz: So it says, ‘Lieutenant JG L. A. Schwartz.’ Schwartz: Yeah.
21:00Shurtz: ‘USNH, Seven-seventeen Hickory Street, Centralia, Illinois.’ Schwartz: That was my wife’s address I… Shurtz: Yeah.Schwartz: I used it because I didn’t, my parents were both dead.
Shurtz: So after, after the war then, you, you moved here and started farming.
Have you ever been involved in anything else?Schwartz: Not really, I pretty well…farming is a full time job… Shurtz: Mm-mm.
Schwartz: …[Chuckling] if you do it, do it right, and if you don’t do it right,
you ain’t going to be there very long.Third Party: You’ve been on the board
22:00at the bank for several years, at First Community?Schwartz: I didn’t, I can’t hear you.
Third Party: Oh, I say (Clears throat) he asked if you had done anything else, I
said you’ve been on the board at the bank for several years.Schwartz: Oh yeah, I… Shurtz: What, what bank is that?
Schwartz: First National Bank at Clinton.
Shurtz: Yeah, what you, what…what kind of duties do you have being on the board?
Schwartz: Well not (Clears throat) just, you set policy as, actually what you
do, you don’t…get too involved in personal accounts or anything like that but you just set policy at…I…my youngest daughter I, I got off the board so she could 23:00get, there’s, I think there’s three women on the bank board, and that’s kind of unusual to have that many women on the board.Shurtz: Have you been involved in any veteran groups?
Schwartz: Not really.
Shurtz: No, no American Legion or VFW or any… Schwartz: No, nothing that…that,
that would involve any time.Shurtz: Mm-mm. So then, tell me about your farming as far as a, what was the,
the first tractor you bought?Schwartz: I think it was a, a AC I believe, Allis-Chalmers, and…and this
[Chuckling] fellow in Missouri said he, you start out in the morning, you hit a bump and it bounces the rest of the day [Chuckling], that AC was 24:00a, was, was not a big tractor but you tried to do big things with it… Fourth Party: Please, do not, do not hit the door with that.Schwartz: …that get you in trouble.
Shurtz: And I guess throughout the years you probably got bigger equipment as
the farming…did you expand your farming? Did you at certain point start farming more land or… Schwartz: Yeah we, you know it’s like everything else, you, you try to, ke…keep building bigger and bigger, yeah. It’s been, I’d say it’s been pretty good to us, we, we…we, we tried to grow with it, because if you don’t, you, you know if you don’t keep expanding a little bit 25:00the first thing you know you’re, you’re gone.Shurtz: How many acres did you farm?
Schwartz: Huh…I think…our most farming probably was…oh my gosh, I don’t know, it
was, maybe five or six hundred acres, something ( ). I’m not, I’m not real sure.Shurtz: Does your son now, does he farm more than that?
Schwartz: Yeah, yeah, he… Shurtz: Do you remember many times around here there
were either bad droughts or heavy flooding or anything? Did you ever lose a crop, or… Schwartz: Yeah we…we had just like everybody else, we had ups and downs, and we…I don’t know of anything that we had, you 26:00know, was just real serious, but…like everybody else we, we had ups and downs, we had good years and bad years.Shurtz: Your farm, you had, what you have cows, any, any pigs, or chickens or
anything ( )?Schwartz: Yeah, we, we had a lot of, a lot of hogs over the years. We had a
fellow that, he’s pretty good at buying pigs and we…we’d have a sort of a partnership with him and we…he’d buy little young pigs and we’d get them all together and feed them out. We did real go…real good on that deal. 27:00Shurtz: So you bought feeder pigs?Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah.
Schwartz: Yeah they’d be, maybe I don’t whether you…did you ever fool with hogs [Chuckling]?
Shurtz: Oh, my parents were, had a, had a big farm, a big pig operation.
Schwartz: Did they?
Shurtz: Yeah so, I know about the pigs [Chuckles – Shurtz] Schwartz: Yeah they,
yeah it’s hard to, hard to fool with the hogs and not, not get involved in buying and selling. But…we… Shurtz: And then there’s all the vaccinating and… Schwartz: Yeah.Shurtz: You just had to give them shots and castrating and all that deal.
Schwartz: But hogs generally were a good operation, and they’d, they just
generally made you money.Shurtz: Mm-mm.
Schwartz: Of course you had to take care of them but you have to take care of
anything if you do any g…good 28:00at it.Shurtz: When you were farming all the time, what time did you get up in the morning?
Schwartz: Oh I ne…I never was a real early riser.
Shurtz: No-no.
Schwartz: No I, I never did have to milk cows… Shurtz: I see.
Schwartz: …or anything like that. I grew up milking cows and I decided I didn’t
want to follow that.Shurtz: What about strawberries, I hear you went into, into strawberries.
Schwartz: Yeah, we had a lot of strawberries, we had, gosh…I guess we had up to
twenty-five, thirty acres of strawberries.Shurtz: Whoa!
Schwartz: And that, that took a lot of, a lot of labor. We, we housed, we had
housing for I think twenty-five, thirty families… Shurtz: Whoa!Schwartz: …that…
29:00Shurtz: Twenty-five or thirty families lived here to pick strawberries?Schwartz: Huh, well they, they…yeah we had housing back here for, we had…I think
we probably housed twenty-five families, maybe.Shurtz: Hum! Were these like migrant workers?
Schwartz: yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah.
Schwartz: Mm-mm.
Shurtz: Were they…were they from the United States or were they from Mexico, or…
Schwartz: Most of them the United States.Shurtz: The Unites States? Yeah. And so I guess they had children and… Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: …and did they go to school here then?
Schwartz: Yeah, they had…they had a school bus that run every, every day, and…it
was, they, they did, they did 30:00pretty good in, in getting involved in the school.Shurtz: Mm-mm. And…what did you do with the strawberries? Did you just sell the
strawberries whole, or did you make jams and jellies and stuff like… Schwartz: Oh no, we just sold them whole, yeah… Shurtz: Yeah?Schwartz: …yeah, they…we…I know one, one day, we loaded a, a big trailer truck,
and that’s a lot of strawberries, but…it, I don’t know I, I would guess that at one time we had several people that we housed here on the farm.Shurtz: Would
31:00they stay just for the summer?Schwartz: Yeah… Shurtz: Yeah?
Schwartz: …yeah, yeah, yeah they, they s…they picked here and then they went
to…Centralia, Illinois, and then they went on up into Michigan and they just sort of followed the harvest.Shurtz: Did you…do much gardening? Did you grow a garden?
Schwartz: No.
Shurtz: No?
Schwartz: Never did anything like that. I laughed at, my wife had, of course she
is a, she wasn’t a farm girl, but she had, I think three tomato plants and she chopped one down and stepped [Laughing] on another one, and she, she didn’t have too much success [Laughter – Shurtz and Schwartz].Shurtz: Well Bud,
32:00I thank you for, for talking to me.Schwartz: Well I… Shurtz: And, about all this and, it’s good to know and it, it,
it will good for future generations to, you know, to know about testing planes and also about farming life here in, in western Kentucky, so.Schwartz: Yeah we, we love it down here; we’re real fortunate that we wound up
down here.Shurtz: Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you, what…were there, were there grain
elevators and, and things like that around this area, did you ever take your corn, and wheat and things like that to other towns or… Schwartz: Well there was always available markets around here.Shurtz: And also for livestock too?
Schwartz: Yeah.
Shurtz: Yeah?
Schwartz: Yeah, there was always people who’d buy your hogs or cattle. It was
always available markets, yeah we…we’d pretty well trade with all local people. 33:00Shurtz: Mm-mm. So do you, do you get to know a lot of the other farmers?Schwartz: Yeah, yeah.
Shurtz: Well Bud, thank you, I’ll turn off the recorder and will be done with that.
“END OF INTERVIEW”
34:00