Oral History Interview with Benjamin Mapp

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“Stories From the Balcony”

Interviews about the Grand Theatre in Frankfort, Kentucky

Interview on Video with

Benjamin Mapp

On Location at The Grand Theatre

Tape 1 – 2007OH02.38

Conducted by Joanna Hay

November 4th, 2010

This project has been supported by the Kentucky Oral History Commission

And Save The Grand Theatre, Inc.

Interview begins with Benjamin Mapp seated in The Grand Theatre with the balcony and theatre seats behind him.

HAY: Wonderful. Thank you very much. Ok. Can you count to five for me just so I can hear your microphone?

MAPP: One. Two. Three. Four. Five.

HAY: Great. Good. Ok. So, I’m going to introduce the tape. This is um…we did a walk-around as we were touring the theatre on a previous tape, but today is November the 4th, 2010, and we are in Frankfort, Kentucky. We are inside The Grand Theatre after its renovation. My name is Joanna Hay. And we are interviewing Benjamin Mapp, or Bennie Mapp as everybody here in Frankfort knows him as. So, we already met earlier as we walked around, but I just thought I would ask a few questions about your childhood, and we’ll maybe reiterate some of the things you talked about as we were touring around the theatre. So first of all, tell me where were you were born and what neighborhood did you grow up in?

MAPP: Ok. I was born on Clinton Street. 111 East Clinton, in a house there. Actually, I’m number two child. And, actually, I have a brother that’s younger than me who was also born there, and we all grew up together and we are all eighteen months apart. Three of us, eighteen months apart. Then after…I think uh…my sister is eleven years younger than my brother next to me. And, then I have another brother that’s I think about six or seven years younger than my sister.

HAY: So you are the oldest?

MAPP: No, I’m next to the oldest.

HAY: You’re next to the oldest.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Ok. Your older brother and then you.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Did you stay on Clinton Street?

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Did you stay there?

MAPP: Yes. We lived in a small house. Actually, the house was three rooms. Ok? Living room, bedroom and kitchen. And a bathroom. And, of course, my mother…she worked right around the corner from where we lived in a bakery. So, we spent our childhood days right there. And, of course, my mother…when we were young…she had someone to sit with us while she worked. Of course, my father worked also. And he worked, actually, in this building next to The Grand Theatre called the McClure Building. I spent most of my childhood days right there in the neighborhood of Clinton Street, which is right in front of the State Office Building. And, that’s where I played at. In that area.

HAY: Is your house still there?

MAPP: No, it’s gone. They tore it down forty years ago. Something like that I would say. Yes. But, that’s the area that I grew up in.

HAY: So where did you go to school?

MAPP: Well, I went to uh…elementary school I went to Mayo Underwood, which was at that particular time was called Mayo Underwood High School. And it was an all black school. It was about…from where we lived it was about eight or nine blocks from our house.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: We walked to school everyday.

HAY: I’m going to pause for a second.

MAPP: Sure.

[Interruption]

HAY: Ok. We just stopped the tape for a second. So, tell me more about Mayo Underwood. You said it was about eight or nine blocks from your house?

MAPP: Yes. Actually, Mayo Underwood was sitting on Mero and Center Street. On the corner of Mero, Center and Wilkinson Boulevard. It was about a fifteen minute…twenty minute walk from our house.

HAY: You’d have to go all the way down.

MAPP: Actually, the route that we took was we would go to Clinton to High Street and then turn left on Mero Street and go straight down Mero.

HAY: Ok. So there’s not much left of the old neighborhood.

MAPP: No, there’s not. No, there’s not. They do have a monument over there where the school set. But, the neighborhood is gone.

HAY: Do you remember when they were…when they were demolishing, I guess, demolishing the neighborhood, right?

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Do you remember when that was happening and what you felt about it at the time?

MAPP: Yes, I do remember that in fact. My father and my brothers and I…we used a lot of the material out of those homes that were down there to build a home for us in another neighborhood. Right up there in the College Park area across from the Kentucky State University on Langford Avenue.

HAY: Sure.

MAPP: So we…the old bricks and stuff that they…my father bought them from some of the houses that were torn down to build us a home.

HAY: So you sort of took the neighborhood with you somewhat.

MAPP: Yeah. Yeah. Of course, we had to do that. We were young. We were teenagers.

HAY: So, you were still in high school then when…when you lost your house. When Urban Renewal occurred.

MAPP: Well, actually, see where I lived at…that wasn’t part of that Urban Renewal.

HAY: Ok. What’s the story? How did that…? What happened?

MAPP: Well, see right there in front of the State Office Building there were some homes there that were there for a long time after the houses down in the Mayo Underwood High School area were torn down.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: So, it was a while before they took those homes…my old home. And, because…what they replaced that with was a state…um, I think it’s a…I’m not really…a credit bureau. That’s what it was. A State Credit Bureau.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: So, actually, that area is right in front of the State Office Building. Right in the front of the State Office Building. The Old State Office Building.

HAY: The Old State Office Building.

MAPP: Right. It’s right there on the corner of Clinton and High Street.

HAY: Uh hum. Right at the other end.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: I visualize it now. So that was a big change.

MAPP: Yes, it was. It was a big change. And, you know, seeing all those homes leave, and of course, relocating and all that. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big change.

HAY: Were there a lot of…were there a lot of other houses in that area?

MAPP: Where I lived?

HAY: Where you lived?

MAPP: It was…actually, it was about five or six houses there.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: In that area. That was all. That was in that particular block.

HAY: So, not as densely populated as more towards the school?

MAPP: Oh no. No. Actually, we lived in a ‘shotgun house’ is what they called it. And then there was a…and beside us was duplexes on each side of us. And, then there was another two-story house and then the person that owned these houses lived on that corner. It was a family known as Pennington’s. In fact, they owned the bakery that was right beside there too.

HAY: And, that’s where your mom worked?

MAPP: Yes, she worked there. Yeah.

HAY: Ok. So where did you play after school?

MAPP: Oh, we played in different places like right there in front of the State Office Building. All around the State Office Building. Of course, the State Office Building used to be a prison, so the walls there were really prison walls. They still stand there. Right now. Today. That’s where they used to have the guard shacks on the pillars and stuff like that. That’s where we played at.

HAY: That’s pretty interesting.

MAPP: Yeah.

0: 1:00 …-0: 2:00HAY: So, what was a typical school day like for you?

MAPP: A typical school day…well, during my early age?

HAY: Yeah. Let’s start when you were young.

MAPP: [Chuckle]

HAY: Like before your teenage years. Your elementary and your middle school years.

MAPP: It was kind of scary at first. I mean going to school and all that, you know. Of course, I adjusted to it. It was interesting being there because, actually, a lot of the kids that I went to school with, I didn’t meet them until I started school because we lived in one part of town, and they lived in another part of town.

HAY: So, was your neighborhood considered part of The Bottom, or Craw?

MAPP: No, it wasn’t.

HAY: You were really outside…well outside that.

MAPP: Yes. It wasn’t really considered that.

HAY: Did it have a name?

MAPP: No, it didn’t. No, it didn’t.

HAY: Because people talk about South Frankfort and they talk about The Bottom.

MAPP: North Frankfort.

HAY: North Frankfort or The Bottom.

MAPP: Of course, I was just a part of North Frankfort.

HAY: You were just part of North Frankfort.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Right.

MAPP: Everything that was on this side of the river was North Frankfort.

HAY: But, you wouldn’t consider it The Bottom, or Craw?

MAPP: No, you didn’t consider it.

HAY: But, Mayo Underwood…

MAPP: And, of course, the people that lived in our neighborhood were all elderly people, you know. We were the only kids in our neighborhood. And, so they considered that area on the lower end of Clinton Street as The Bottom, or The Craw Bottom is what they called it.

HAY: Towards the river.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Yeah. So, Mayo Underwood, of course, was right at the north end of Clinton.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: At that end of Clinton.

MAPP: Right. It was…well actually, it was on…

HAY: West?

MAPP: Well, that was considered the north side of town.

HAY: Uh hum.

MAPP: Yeah. But, going like west…I guess you would say.

HAY: Uh hum. So, would you walk to school in the morning?

MAPP: No, actually it’s going east.

HAY: Going east?

MAPP: Because west would be going like on out towards Louisville.

HAY: You’re right. Right.

MAPP: Yeah. It would be more east.

HAY: So, would you walk to school?

MAPP: Yeah, we’d walk to school. Everyday. Everyday.

HAY: Were there a lot of other kids walking?

MAPP: Well, actually not from that area.

HAY: Not from where you…

MAPP: We used to meet up with them.

HAY: Meet up with them.

MAPP: You know. On down Mero. There was a family that lived on over on High Street, The Brown’s, and we used to sort of meet up with them. Yeah.

HAY: So, by the time you got to school there was probably a lot of kids.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: Together.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: But, you started out on your own.

MAPP: If you wasn’t late. [Chuckle]

HAY: Were you ever late?

MAPP: Oh yeah. We were late a lot. [Chuckle] But, I hated to be late though.

HAY: Really?

MAPP: Yeah.

HAY: So, what were the teachers like at Mayo Underwood?

MAPP: The teachers were very strict. They were no-nonsense teachers. I do remember that. One of the things that kind of stands out in my mind about the school was that The Red Cross would come and give shots. And, then there were a lot of kids that were afraid of shots that really uh…performed. My brother was one. [Laughter] My younger brother was one. He would really perform. And, of course, when The Red Cross would come, they would call my mother and have her come to school to help control my younger brother because once he would see the nurses, he would take off running and then they would have to catch him. So, that’s one thing that kind of sticks out.

HAY: That’s a good memory.

MAPP: Yeah. It was. I remember when I was…he was like…I think I was…I was in second grade and he was in the first grade. I was sitting in the classroom and it was on a shot day. And the way that you knew that there was a shot day: you could smell the alcohol. It was that strong. So, if you smelled alcohol, you knew that was a shot day. So, I was sitting in this classroom and I smelled alcohol. “Oh, it’s a shot day.” Of course, and then different classes on different days would take shots. And then there were some days that like the whole school would take a shot. But, they would take…they would come in and they would give shots, you know. Different shots, which were…I don’t know exactly what all shots they were giving me at that particular time, but I was sitting in this classroom and I saw my brother go by the window. And then I saw the principal and the nurse and my mother trying to catch my brother. [Chuckle] They finally caught him though. They all had to hold him down to give him the shot, but they made sure that he got a shot.

HAY: For the record, you have to tell me which brother.

MAPP: That’s my younger brother.

HAY: Your younger brother.

MAPP: Yeah. My younger brother…next to me. He’s eighteen months younger than I.

HAY: Ok. That’s a good memory.

0: 3:00 …-0: 4:00HAY: So, did you go…did you stay at Mayo Underwood all the way through school, or…?

MAPP: Oh, no. I stayed at Mayo Underwood until the eighth grade, and then after the eighth grade I went to Frankfort High.

HAY: Ok. So, what year did you go to Frankfort High?

MAPP: What year was that? It was…I think it was…’62, I believe it was. Because my brother…I was there a year and then my brother graduated. My older brother graduated. Yeah. He graduated in 1963.

HAY: When did Frankfort High integrate? What was the…?

MAPP: Oh, you know, I think it was in the fifties.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: That they integrated. It was something like…maybe about ’56, ’57 something like that, I believe. I’m not really sure about that.

HAY: But, it was already…

MAPP: I remember talking with someone that told me that they were one of the first classes that left Mayo Underwood to go to Frankfort High. And, I think they told me it was in 1957.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: I think.

HAY: So, a little before you and your brother…a little before your older brother started.

MAPP: Oh yeah.

HAY: Yeah. Few years before.

MAPP: Yeah. A few years, yes.

HAY: Yeah. So did Mayo Underwood…at that point it only went to the eighth grade. Is that right?

MAPP: Right.

HAY: Ok. So you went to Frankfort High.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: And, then what did you do after that?

MAPP: After I graduated from high school, I went to Kentucky State. [Cough] Excuse me. Kentucky State University.

HAY: What did you study there?

MAPP: Actually, they didn’t have anything on the curriculum that really interested me so I just took general. At that particular time, the Vietnam War was going on, and when I was a senior in high school, I had to go and take a physical. So, they were trying to draft people during that time. So, I made sure that I was in school to keep from getting drafted.

HAY: Yeah. Yep. I bet. So, lets go back to your younger years of childhood, and I asked you when we were upstairs in the balcony what age you thought you were when you first came to The Grand. Can you tell me again? How old were you when you first came here?

MAPP: Oh, we might have been at least four or five years old. We didn’t come that often. It was mostly on the weekends that we came. My mother, she worked different shifts. She worked. But, that was one of her favorite past-times was to go to the movies.

HAY: So, she looked forward to it as much as you guys.

MAPP: Yes, she did. Yes, she did.

HAY: So, when you would come with her then. That’s when…you would come with your mother?

MAPP: Right. Yeah. Myself and my two brothers.

HAY: And, what early movies do you remember seeing here?

0: 5:00 …-0: 6:00MAPP: Oh, wow! Let me tell you. I remember seeing Gene Autry. Also the Cisco Kid. Roy Rogers. Now, those…they kind of stand out, you know. More than anything, those westerns were the things that really stand out in my mind. Those things were popular back when we were kids. Roy Rogers, yeah. And, what was that guy’s name? Cisco and Jingles? Or whatever. I remember those. Mostly Roy Rogers and um…I said his name and now I’ve forgotten it.

HAY: Can’t remember?

MAPP: No, I don’t remember. Gene Autry.

HAY: Gene Autry.

MAPP: Yeah. Gene Autry. They were the stars back then.

HAY: You were talking about the free movie…the free…what did you call them?

MAPP: They used to have free movies in the summer. During the summer vacation. As far as the school vacation. They would have free movies here. And, the way that you would get a free ticket would be that your parents would have to go to the grocery store, or somebody’s store, and they would request for tickets…for however many tickets as far as kids that you had, or whatever. And, you know, there were…And, my father used to get tickets also because he worked here…not too far from here…and he used to go shop at the market house there, which is right across the street from here.

HAY: So, the merchants were getting foot traffic into their stores in order to give the tickets out, so there must have been some kind of an arrangement between the theatre and the stores.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Sounds like a fun thing to do though.

MAPP: Right. We kind of looked forward to that because it would be like maybe a couple hours of just cartoons and stuff like that. So, that was…anything for the kids.

HAY: So what would show?

MAPP: It kept the kids off the streets too.

HAY: That’s true too. What would show? There’d be a cartoon. Would there be some…did you get those newsreels ever? Or would you get a cartoon, or just the feature movie? Do you remember?

MAPP: They had a feature movie, and then they just played cartoons after cartoons. It would just…they would just have a lot of cartoons. Which was exciting for a little kid anyway. So, what cartoons were playing in those days?

MAPP: Mostly Tom and Jerry. I forget…who was the mouse that flew around?

HAY: Mighty Mouse?

MAPP: Yeah. Mighty Mouse. That’s who it was. Those were popular. Popeye. Those type. It’s kind of hard to remember all those different cartoons.

HAY: So, that’s when you probably loved the cartoons when you were a little younger, and then when you were a teenager, what do you remember about coming to the theatre?

MAPP: Oh, ok. Well, this was a hangout really for teenagers back then as far as entertainment. And dating. This was a form of dating. Taking a young lady to the movies. I think I was twelve years old; the first time I escorted a young lady to the movie here.

HAY: Do you remember who it was?

MAPP: Yeah. Shirley. Shirley.

HAY: You going to tell us?

MAPP: Oh, yeah. Her name was Shirley Walker.

HAY: So, that was a first date at twelve years old.

MAPP: I was twelve and she was thirteen.

HAY: And, would you come on your own, or as a group, or…?

MAPP: We came as a group. Yeah. We came as a group. And, all of us were in the same age bracket. And, we all came as couples. I would say about four or five couples. This is the place where we would meet. Especially on Sundays after church. But, there were certain things that had to be done before you would get that luxury of going to a movie on Sunday. You had to make sure everything was done. Your parents would make sure that everything was done during the week, and you know, that was your treat.

HAY: So, if you hadn’t done your chores during the week, or you hadn’t kept up with…?

MAPP: You weren’t going to be going to the movies. [Chuckle]

HAY: Do you remember any occasions where you had not done your work or your chores, and you were banned from coming to the theatre?

MAPP: I can’t recall, but I’m pretty sure it probably happened. [Chuckle]

HAY: But, it was a good incentive too.

MAPP: A very good incentive. Very good.

HAY: Because as you were talking about when we were walking around, there weren’t many other places you could go hangout.

MAPP: There wasn’t. I mean, not for a teenager. No.

HAY: Was there anywhere else?

MAPP: Well, you know, there were some places that teenagers went, but they weren’t supposed to be there because they sold beer.

HAY: Sort of sneaking in…under age?

MAPP: But, then there was…then, later during the teenage years, there were some places out Frankfort where some guy opened up a business for just teenagers. And, that was really nice, but I forget the name of it. It didn’t stay open very long though. That was over there on Murray Street.

HAY: Ok. So, obviously, The Grand was segregated, so…

MAPP: Right.

HAY: …you had to come upstairs to the balcony.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: Do you remember what you felt about that in your teenage years?

0: 7:00 …-0: 8:00MAPP: I thought that was very odd, you know, because I always wanted to see this area, and look at the movie from this area. But, I couldn’t, you know. So, I thought that was odd that, you know, we could all walk on the same street, but we couldn’t sit in the same movie. [Chuckle]

HAY: And, did you think there was anything you could…I mean, in those years were things starting to…people starting to speak up and try to make changes, or what do you remember?

MAPP: Oh, I remember Newberry’s, which was a five and dime store, which was right next-door. And then, the Woolworth’s. I remember those particular businesses having diners and they had [..] for us during that time when I was a teenager.

HAY: Uh hum. So, things were starting to change, or at least…

MAPP: Yeah, but I always wondered why it was, you know, like it was because we used to go to this hamburger restaurant. It was right on Main Street. And, of course, being a kid, you go in and try to sit down and your parents would say you couldn’t sit down. And, of course, you could get served, but you couldn’t sit down. So, I always thought that was very odd. And that was at an early age.

HAY: And, you were in that transition era where your parents would probably say, “Well, this is the way it is.”

MAPP: Right.

HAY: But, you were questioning it.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: What about that? I mean, what do you remember? Do you remember talking to your parents about these things? How did everybody feel about it?

MAPP: Well, they thought it was bad, you know. And, they always commented about it, you know. And felt like that it was wrong. And told us that it was wrong for it to happen. And, of course, then the Martin Luther King Movement came about. They supported that. But, we didn’t go out and do any marching or anything like that, but only when Martin Luther King came here in…I think it was in ’65…the March on the Capitol.

HAY: Do you remember that day?

0: 9:00 …-0: 10:00MAPP: Yeah, I do remember that day. I was in high school.

HAY: What was it like?

MAPP: It was a very different day. There were a lot of people in the city, and a lot of media was here. I didn’t get to go. Well, a lot of kids skipped school for the March, but I didn’t because I would have had trouble if I had.

HAY: Was that because of the school’s rules, or was it because of your family’s rules?

MAPP: Both. It was actually…it would have been an unexcused absence.

HAY: Yeah. But, some kids skipped and…

MAPP: Yes, some kids did do that.

HAY: And went.

MAPP: Yeah.

HAY: That was a huge day for Frankfort. Really a significant…

MAPP: It was.

HAY: I mean, a lot of states didn’t have those sorts of…

MAPP: Demonstrations.

HAY: Demonstrations and…yeah. Yeah.

MAPP: When I look back on that, I wish I had skipped school. Yeah. I wish I had. But…

HAY: Sounds like you were an attentive…were you an attentive student? Were you a good student?

MAPP: No, I wasn’t a very good student. I’m not going to lie and say I was. It was…I mean, you know…I made a passing grade and that was about it.

HAY: But, it sounds like you were a rule follower, I guess. Somewhat.

MAPP: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wanted to get out of school. I didn’t want to stay behind, so…if you didn’t do your work, you would stay behind.

HAY: You were looking at some more time in school, so…[Chuckle]

MAPP: Yeah. Right.

HAY: That was a judgment call. So, what do you miss most about growing up in Frankfort? When you think back on what was your fondest memories of growing up in Frankfort?

MAPP: I guess what I miss most is family that has passed away. That’s the biggest thing that I miss.

HAY: Yeah.

MAPP: My mother. My father. Grandparents. Aunts and Uncles. They’re all gone. So, I only have a few relatives here. And, of course, I live in Louisville, so I spend most of my time in Louisville so I don’t come home. Only on special occasions. Things like that.

HAY: Like today, right?

MAPP: Right. Like today.

HAY: How do you see the community different in, I guess, the way you grew up in Frankfort verses maybe a similar time in a bigger city? Like what Louisville might have been like. I guess that’s a hard…that’s a difficult question to answer. But, how is the community of Frankfort, I guess, different from the community of Louisville?

MAPP: Well, it’s different based on the fact that, you know, there were…it was more wide open. More opportunities there in Louisville than in Frankfort. And, I guess, being in a small community you can get away with a lot…a lot of stuff. I felt like if I had grown up in Louisville, I would probably have done things a little differently than what I did. Being opposed to a small county opposed to a big city like Louisville, I think it’s really good to experience a big city, you know. And that like. And what it has to offer you opposed to a small town. Now, as far as me growing up in Frankfort, there wasn’t that much to do, and the opportunities were different here than it was—and it is—in Louisville. I went to Louisville for a career advancement.

HAY: So, what did you do in your career?

MAPP: Well, I moved to Louisville and I got a job working at a metropolitan school district. So, I worked there for twenty-three years, and of course, I worked for State before I left Frankfort and about seven years of time there, so all of that together was about twenty-three years that I worked in Louisville.

HAY: Nice. Nice. And, then your kids and grandkids? Tell me about your kids and grandkids.

MAPP: Yeah, I have four kids. I have four grandkids too. My oldest grandchild is sixteen. Sixteen, thirteen, five and three.

HAY: And, then who did you say…we’re, of course, in a theatre at the moment. But, someone in your…is it your son or your grandson that’s in the theatre?

MAPP: Oh, my son. My youngest son.

HAY: Your son.

MAPP: He’s twenty-five years old.

HAY: And, tell me about what he’s doing in New York.

MAPP: Oh, right now…he took a job working for River Dance. But, he didn’t like it because it wasn’t Union. He decided to turn it down, so right now he’s just auditioning right now. And, tomorrow he leaves to go to San Francisco to see his girlfriend. She’s in a show there.

HAY: Were you someone who went to concerts and the theatre or movies while your kids were growing up? Did you sort of encourage that, or where did he get that?

MAPP: No. He got that from looking at TV. Him and his sister. He always wanted to be an entertainer from a little bitty, young man, you know. And, he stuck to that. So, he started out in the neighborhood…there was a neighborhood place where we used to live. They used to have theatre there, and he got into that there. He was just a little bitty kid, I’d say about eight. Seven or eight years old. He’s always been into the movies and the bands, and all that so he’s…that’s what he wants to do and that’s what he’s doing.

HAY: Where did he go to high school?

MAPP: He went to high school at [..]. And he graduated in 2001, I believe it was.

HAY: So, he really followed the arts.

MAPP: Yes. Then, he got a scholarship to Point Park University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He graduated from there and he’s been in New York ever since.

HAY: That’s great. That’s great. Well, I love the theatre so I always like hearing those stories. Let me just look at my list to see about…make sure I haven’t missed any questions here. We talked about what the theatre used to look like. What do you think The Grand Theatre represents for the black community of Frankfort?

0: 11:00 …-0: 12:00MAPP: Right now?

HAY: Sure. Right now.

MAPP: Well, it gives them a place to go, I mean, for the arts. I don’t think I’ve…other than, you know, going to Kentucky State and getting into some of their arts programs was the only arts I ever experienced while I was living here in Frankfort. So, now that this is open, it gives them another avenue.

HAY: And, what do you think it meant to that community in…like your teenage years? What did it…how would you summarize what it meant to the community?

MAPP: Well, I feel like it gave us, as teenagers, some place to go and something to do. I don’t know. And, of course, this wasn’t the only place to go. They did have a community center at Mayo Underwood School. I forgot to tell you about that. Yeah. They had a community center there that was open certain nights of the week, and also it was open during the vacation…summer vacation.

HAY: What kind of activities would you…?

MAPP: Oh, there were all kinds of…well, there was…they had like softball teams and basketball teams. There were arts and crafts. One of the teachers had sort of an activity where she would…I guess she was a part of this church which was Corinthian Church back then, I believe. She used to make candy and in order to be a part of this candy party that she would have, she would have you just bring her a cup of sugar, I believe it was. And, then you would go to her candy party. She would have the candy in a big, old pot, and what she would do…you would bring a plate from your home. Or sometimes if you didn’t bring one from your home, she would have a plate there for you. And you would butter it, and then she would pour the candy on the plate. And then, you would wait until it cooled off enough for you to take your hands and pick it up. It was called a ‘Pull-candy Party.” And, you would pull it until…it would be yellow, and after you’d get through pulling it, it would turn white. So, that was one of the things that kept kids from getting into trouble. So, that was another avenue that we had that we took advantage of.

HAY: That sounds great.

MAPP: As kids. As teenagers.

HAY: That sounds great. So, what did you eat when you came to The Grand Theatre?

0: 13:00 …-0: 14:00MAPP: I always enjoyed their popcorn. That was a big treat. Yeah. Back then. I always enjoyed their popcorn.

HAY: Did you get anything else?

MAPP: Popcorn was my favorite. That was my favorite.

HAY: And, there’s probably nothing that tastes quite like it from like your memory…like it was probably had a special taste to it is what I’m thinking.

MAPP: Yeah, it did. Popcorn at home…we always burned it and stuff. [Chuckle] Back then, we popped popcorn in a skillet, you know. And, if you left it on the stove for too long…if it was too hot…it would burn. So, it was always a good…popcorn was really good at The Grand Theatre.

HAY: So, when you arrived at the theatre, and you bought your ticket and you’d climb the stairs, who would you see at the top of the stairs?

MAPP: I always saw Miss Wilson. She was always there.

HAY: What was she like?

MAPP: She was a very disciplined lady. She was no-nonsense, you know. She would put you out of the theatre if you acted up. My brothers and I, we came from a good family, and we knew not to do those types of things because we would have got in trouble there and at home too. So, we always acted good.

HAY: So, she was sort of up there making sure everybody was minding their…doing right.

MAPP: Yeah. She had to. She had to be on her P’s and Q’s because, you know, kids will be kids. [Chuckle] She was pretty tough.

HAY: What did she look like?

MAPP: She was a sort of medium build lady. It’s hard to remember what she wore. I’m trying to remember if she wore glasses. I think she did wear glasses. It’s kind of hard to remember what she really looked like.

HAY: Sort of remember the feeling of her, don’t you, more than the…?

MAPP: I think she was medium built lady and I remember she wore glasses, and she was very stern when she talked.

HAY: So, she would not only take the tickets, but she would also do the concessions, is that right?

MAPP: Right. Yeah. She would also take the tickets, and she would sell what they were selling at the concession stand.

HAY: And then, she would walk around. I mean, she was busy wasn’t she?

MAPP: She would walk around. Yes, she was. She had a big job, really. She had to make sure that everything was running ok as far as nobody disturbing anyone, and she had to make sure everybody was acting appropriately.

HAY: She was really doing three jobs like in a really concentrated amount of time.

MAPP: Yes, she was. It was a big job. She might not have liked her job. [Laughter] I don’t know if she did or not. Dealing with all those kids. You know how kids are. [Laughter] Sometimes you have to do what you gotta do.

HAY: And, she did it for so long.

MAPP: She did work for a long time.

HAY: It’s like generations remember her.

MAPP: Yeah. Yeah.

HAY: Like three generations, almost, remember her.

MAPP: Three generations?

HAY: Well, I mean, that’s an exaggeration, but from the forties. From the forties right until the…through the sixties…well, three decades, I guess.

MAPP: Ok.

HAY: I mean, it sounds…I don’t know the exact dates, but it sounds like from the stories that…

MAPP: She was there.

HAY: Forties. Fifties. Sixties. That’s a lot of years. And, to make an impression on everybody that went up those stairs.

MAPP: Right. Right. Yeah. Sort of like…it was her movie theatre. [Chuckle]

HAY: Do you ever remember seeing her outside the movie theatre?

MAPP: I can’t remember, really. I can’t remember. I’ve always been a member of The First Baptist Church, and I can’t remember if she was a member there or not.

HAY: We’re…Sheila and I are on a mission to find pictures of Miss Wilson, but we…

MAPP: Oh, really. Ok.

HAY: So, if you know of anybody who you think might have a picture…but it’s sort of, you know, people didn’t really take pictures in those days like they do now.

MAPP: Right.

HAY: But, if you have a little brainstorm and think of someone who might have a picture of Miss Wilson, let us know.

MAPP: Ok.

HAY: So, what was downtown like in those days? What was it like downtown?

MAPP: Are you talking about downtown like in the St. Clair area?

HAY: Is that…would that be called downtown? Is that right?

MAPP: Yeah. Well, they called it downtown.

HAY: Ok. So, St. Clair.

MAPP: Right out here in the front here?

HAY: Uh hum.

MAPP: Well, back in those days they had a…this side of the street was always business as far as stores and stuff like that. But, always on the other side of the street there was always some type of a beer joint over there. And, all up and down…going down Ann Street. Was it Ann Street?

HAY: Ann Street or Broadway?

MAPP: Is that Broadway?

HAY: Broadway is where the railroad tracks are so two junctions in…

MAPP: Ok, yeah. Broadway. Yeah. Right up and down Broadway. Right in that area there have always been beer joints.

HAY: Oh, really?

MAPP: Yeah because see…well, first of all see in order for us—as in my family—coming to the movies, we would most of the time walk straight up Clinton and then cut between The Capitol, the Old Capitol there, and come on St. Clair to the movies.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: And, we really used that route basically because we didn’t want to go up Broadway because of the beer joints there. There were always people there that were always cutting up and doing things that none of us…

HAY: So kids…yeah. Kids didn’t need to be walking up and down that…

MAPP: No. No.

HAY: Yeah.

MAPP: And, we’d never walk on the other side of the street. It was always on this side of the street.

HAY: Here on St. Clair.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: So, this side with Newberry’s and Woolworth’s and The Grand Theatre…

MAPP: Yeah.

HAY: And the other side…

MAPP: Never walk on the other side.

HAY: What were the crowds like? Were there a lot of people in town?

MAPP: Yeah. It was always a lot of people in town…on the weekends.

HAY: And, tell me about the Old Capitol yard. People talk about playing in the Old Capitol yard.

MAPP: Yeah, we used to…as I got older, as far as being a teenager, we used to go up there. They used to have football games there in the yards.

HAY: Ok. Ok.

MAPP: And then, of course, they used to have Easter…they used to have an Easter egg hunt there every year.

HAY: Ok. I bet that was fun. Let’s see…

MAPP: They also used to have Easter egg contests, you know. Egg breaking contests where they would give prizes and stuff like that.

HAY: So, how would those…how would that work? What’s an egg breaking contest?

MAPP: Well, you would bring your egg, and then they would line you up and you would hold your egg and somebody would hit it. And, if your egg broke, then you were out of the contest. And, if your egg didn’t break, that meant you were still in the game. And, you would go on until you broke everyone’s egg and you won the contest.

HAY: You had the toughest eggs. [Chuckle] So, who would organize those sorts of things?

MAPP: I think the…if I’m not mistaken…I don’t know if the Salvation Army had anything to do with that or not.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: It’s kind of hard to remember who ran that.

HAY: Yeah. Well, you don’t think about that when you’re a kid either.

MAPP: No, you don’t.

HAY: No. It’s just there for you.

MAPP: Right. Yeah. Especially for the kids.

HAY: Let’s see. Just checking my questions here. You remembered…um…did you remember Callie Weathers at all? Callie Weathers. Who, I think every now and then she would sit in for Miss Wilson.

MAPP: Yes, I remember her.

HAY: Any memories of her particularly?

MAPP: No. I remember her being there though because I think she’s related to Pat Hunter, I believe.

HAY: Ok. And, I’m just going to throw out some other names. Mr. Parsons?

MAPP: Parsons…?

HAY: Gene Lutes?

MAPP: Gene who?

HAY: Gene Lutes?

MAPP: No.

HAY: Allie Combs?

MAPP: Allie Combs? Now, I know the Combs family, but I don’t know everyone in that family.

HAY: Ok. Jim Aderberry?

MAPP: Jim Aderberry? I’ve heard that name.

HAY: These were people with various…and I don’t know a lot of detail either, but just had various roles with the theatre at various times.

MAPP: Oh, really. Ok.

HAY: Yeah. That’s why I had just thrown out those names. Every now and then somebody goes, “Oh!” and they have some info about them. Ok. I think I’ve asked you most of the questions I wanted to ask. Now, your kids all grew up in Louisville, is that right?

MAPP: Well, my last two kids grew up in Louisville.

HAY: Ok. So, nobody grew up in Frankfort? None of them were here in Frankfort?

MAPP: Well, let’s see. My oldest son. He went to school here up until high school, and then he went to Lexington.

HAY: Ok.

MAPP: And, then my son next to him, he went to school here all the way up until something like…I think he was eight years old when he left and he moved to Louisville with his mother.

HAY: Ok. So, your kids…so two of your kids did have experience growing up here in Frankfort.

MAPP: Yes.

HAY: Yeah.

MAPP: A little bit, yeah.

HAY: When you talked with them…did you ever talk with them about what it was like growing up in Frankfort…is that anything you were…what would you tell them about your experience growing up in Frankfort?

MAPP: Oh, ok. Well, as far as, you know, growing up, you know…being as there wasn’t any kids in our neighborhood, we had to play with each other. Then there were some kids that would come to our neighborhood. They had this game that they would play in the State yard, which was a game where they would hide and then we would have to catch them and count one, two, three, and then go back…and beat them back to this place. And, that was something that we used to do. Of course, we rode bikes and stuff like that around the neighborhood. I used to tell them about all those things.

HAY: Yep. I bet. And then, your two younger kids, they didn’t really have much connection with Frankfort, or did you keep…

MAPP: No. No. They don’t know anything about Frankfort. Other than that I used to…this was my home. Other than that.

HAY: So, what would you tell them about Frankfort?

MAPP: Well, actually I used to…actually my son was home about three months ago, and we came to Frankfort, and actually I gave him a picture of my old childhood as far as driving around and telling him where I lived at for how ever many years, and how I traveled back and forth to school. And, where I went to summer school, and that I had to walk to summer school and how far of a distance it was and all that. And, just basically my whole childhood days. Because he’d never…he didn’t know it. So, I sort of just rolled around and showed him, you know, where I spent my time. So that was interesting reliving that and explaining it to him. That was very interesting. And, you know, I had a lot of flashbacks of my childhood days too.

HAY: As you were showing him.

MAPP: Yes. Yes. Yes, because I was showing him as far as the routes that I took, as far as walking. I didn’t drive until I was eighteen years old, so I walked up until I was eighteen, or else I had to ride with someone else. [Chuckle]

HAY: So, you showed him not only the Clinton Street and the North Frankfort, but also the house where you all moved up at…

MAPP: Oh, yeah. Right.

HAY: What did you say? Capitol…? What did you call it? Capitol…?

MAPP: Well, we lived up on Langford Avenue.

HAY: Langford Avenue.

MAPP: As far as living there before I moved to Louisville.

HAY: Ok. So, he saw the difference between the hill and…

MAPP: Right. And, also I used to walk from Clinton Street all the way out to Franklin County to summer school. [Laughter]

HAY: That’s a long walk.

MAPP: That’s a long walk. Yes.

HAY: That’s a long walk.

MAPP: It is. It is a long walk.

HAY: You would do it everyday?

MAPP: Yeah.

HAY: During those summer weeks?

MAPP: I think the summer school lasted something like about six weeks. Something like that.

HAY: Yep. Well, this is great. Did he have any impressions? Did he have any comments about what…about what you showed him? When you…after you…?

MAPP: Oh, yeah. He was commenting on how…of course, living in that area that we lived in, of course, and the places where we played. Because we played on the walls right there at the State Office Building and also there was another place over behind the State Office Building, which was the State Stadium where they used to have like tournaments like donkey softball tournaments and that kind of thing. You know, we used to go there to…and they used to have softball tournaments also there. Big national softball tournaments when I was a kid. So, that was entertainment too for us as kids.

HAY: I bet he thought everything was so small.

MAPP: Yeah. [Laughter]

HAY: Well, that’s all I have as far as questions unless there’s something…any other thoughts about The Grand Theatre or growing up in Frankfort that I haven’t asked you about? Or any last comments about it?

MAPP: No.

HAY: What it was like for you when you were younger? Or memories of your dates up in the balcony?

MAPP: Ha. No, I don’t have any memories about that. [Chuckle] It’s kind of nice to look back on it and see what it used to be, and now what it is now. It’s a beautiful place, you know. I’m looking forward to coming down and witness some of the entertainment.

HAY: Come for a show.

MAPP: Yeah.

HAY: Well, thank you so much for driving all the way from Louisville first of all.

MAPP: Ok. Ok.

HAY: And sitting with me and tolerating my questions and giving me one…

END OF INTERVIEW

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