Oral History Interview with Mary Washington Part II

“Stories From the Balcony”

Interviews about the Grand Theatre in Frankfort, Kentucky

Interview on Video with

Mary Washington

On Location at The Grand Theatre

Tape 2 – 2007OH02.36b

Conducted by Joanna Hay

October 12st, 2010

This project has been supported by the Kentucky Oral History Commission

And Save The Grand Theatre, Inc.

BEGINNING OF TAPE 2

WASHINGTON: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

HAY: Ok, we’re rolling, so I’m going to introduce the tape. This is…um…it’s still October the 12th, 2010, and we’re now doing the sit down interview with Mary Washington. I’m Joanna Hay. We are inside The Grand Theatre. On the stage of The Grand Theatre looking back up towards the house and the balcony. So, if you don’t mind, could you reiterate your name, when you were born, and where you are from.

WASHINGTON: Mary Washington. I was born right here in Frankfort, Kentucky, Franklin County. I was born right here in Frankfort, and what was the third thing you said?

HAY: Um…what year?

WASHINGTON: Oh…

HAY: You’ve had a blank on that one, didn’t you? You didn’t want to answer that.

WASHINGTON: Really. You know, all women are kind of funny about their age. We’re kind of shy. But I’m happy. I’m happy. My birthday will be in a couple days, and I’ll be seventy years old.

HAY: A big…a big decade.

WASHINGTON: The big 7 – 0. [Chuckle]

HAY: That’s great. Now what part of Frankfort did you grow up in?

0: 1:00 …-1: 2:00WASHINGTON: I grew up…do you know much about Frankfort? Ok. I grew up in the area they called [Cough] called…um…I wonder if many of the other people talked about The Crawl? Ok. I grew up in that area. I really did. It was close…it was a very convenient area, for me anyway. It was close to…uh…The Capitol Theatre, The Grand Theatre, drugstores, the school. The restaurant we used to hang out in called Tiger’s Inn. And it was just really really…the grocery store was in our neighborhood. And we just had lots of places we could go to and not leave our neighborhood. Everything was very convenient. Very convenient. The high school and grade school that we attended. And like I said, the grocery stores. Our church. Corinthian Baptist Church was in that area. The doctor’s office. Doctor Holmes’s office was in that neighborhood. So, we didn’t have to leave that area. Not for much of anything.

HAY: So you would walk everywhere.

WASHINGTON: Walk everywhere. Uh hum.

HAY: And you could walk to The Grand Theatre and St. Clair.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: Yep.

WASHINGTON: Exactly.

HAY: And what…what school did you go to?

WASHINGTON: I went to Mayo Underwood.

HAY: Tell me what going to Mayo Underwood was like.

WASHINGTON: It was great. It was great. I was a cheerleader. We had a wonderful basketball team. And the games were all great. A lot of competition there. You know, going through the close…close schools like Lexington and Dunbar. Schools like that. We were always in competition with them. So, I just thought grade school and high school was really great.

HAY: So you went all the way through high school at Mayo Underwood?

WASHINGTON: No. I went to the eleventh grade.

HAY: Ok.

WASHINGTON: And then integration started in 1957 and I went to Frankfort High School for one year.

HAY: Ok. So was that…I was hearing about that there was a transition time when there was mandatory…where they closed Mayo Underwood and it was mandatory?

WASHINGTON: Mandatory.

HAY: Integration. Was that that year then? When you left?

WASHINGTON: No, I think it was the year before when it started. I think we were the second class to leave Mayo Underwood and go to Frankfort High. So, it was mandatory. I think it was difficult for some people. We had…um…some people that made the transition pretty good. Some didn’t. Some went to Frankfort High. Some went to Lincoln Ridge. Some went to the county school. So we had decisions to make. And I chose to stay here because it was just easier for me, and easier for my family.

HAY: What was the one you mentioned…Lincoln…?

WASHINGTON: Lincoln Ridge.

HAY: What was that?

WASHINGTON: That was a high school.

HAY: Where was that?

WASHINGTON: That’s in…um…I was going to say Lincoln Ridge. [Chuckle]

HAY: Was it here in Franklin County?

WASHINGTON: No. No. It’s about…I would say about thirty or forty miles down the road.

HAY: Ok. Was that a day school?

WASHINGTON: That was a regular high school.

HAY: Ok. For bl…? For…was it…was it segregated?

WASHINGTON: It was segregated.

HAY: Ok.

WASHINGTON: Yes. Uh huh. Integration hadn’t started there yet.

HAY: Ok. Ok. Those were such um…interesting times and I, you know, I just love to hear what…what it felt like. And what about the difference between going from what others, and you…you suggested too…from a very nurturing place such as Mayo Underwood. What was that transition like into other schools? Into Frankfort High? How did you make that transition?

WASHINGTON: I um…like I said, only went there for one year. And some of it was good, and some of it wasn’t. It really wasn’t. We had a lot of people that did not want to accept integration, you know. So when my class went from Mayo Underwood to Frankfort High, some people accepted us, and some didn’t. There was a lack of…for one instance…there was a lack of lockers. So they had to double up with the students…to put your books and things in. And a lot of students didn’t want that either, you know. A lot of unpleasant things were said because of that. And I think after about six months, you know, it got better. I don’t think it got good. It got better. It got better, you know. We had a wonderful principal at Mayo Underwood School. Her name was Alice D. Samuels. And she prepared us. She prepared us. She said, “In case you go to a different school, and you don’t make passing grades, you will have enough credits to graduate on time.” So we went there prepared to graduate on time.

HAY: Good. So you were really prepared academically and…

WASHINGTON: To graduate on time.

HAY: Yep. And then after high school, what did you do?

0: 3:00 …-0: 4:00WASHINGTON: I went to Kentucky State.

HAY: What was that like, and what did you study?

WASHINGTON: Well [Chuckle] Business Administra…Administration and it was great. It was. A lot of immaturity on my side. I finished high school a little early. Seventeen. And a lot of people instructed me to wait a year and then go, but my buddies were going and I wanted to go. And I was very immature. Very immature. So…but I went anyway. I had a good time while I was there, but I didn’t do as well as I could have.

HAY: You think you just weren’t prepared…you just weren’t…

WASHINGTON: I wasn’t prepared. Not for college.

HAY: Right.

WASHINGTON: Not for college.

HAY: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: So I went there two years and then I left there. And went to a cosmetology school in Indianapolis, Indiana because I wanted to make everybody look beautiful. [Chuckle] So I went to Madame CJ Walker in Indianapolis, Indiana. To learn how to do hair.

HAY: Ok.

WASHINGTON: And it was great. It was really really great. I met a lot of interesting people. Had a good time. Met a lot…lot of friends. Made a lot of friends. I wouldn’t trade that year…those two years for nothing in this world.

HAY: So did you come back to Frankfort then and…

WASHINGTON: I came back to Frankfort.

HAY: …do hair?

WASHINGTON: I did it for awhile. I did it for awhile, you know. I did it for a long time before I went to school. [Chuckle] Which was against the law. [Laughter] But it was a good way to make money, you know. Spending change. [Chuckle] So, then I decided to become licensed. I thought, “Well, you have to go to school to do that.” So that’s when I left.

HAY: Right.

WASHINGTON: And went to Indianapolis, Indiana.

HAY: Right.

WASHINGTON: And then, when I left there, I came back here and met my ex-husband and got married.

HAY: Ok. I’ll ask you more about your family, but what was it like going to Indianapolis? Was that a BIG change?

WASHINGTON: That was a big change for me because I had not gone away from home much. I really had not. And I wasn’t driving so…I didn’t learn to drive until I went to Indianapolis, Indiana. It was difficult to get around. I didn’t have a job when I first got there so I had to look for employment. I stayed with my parents…my mother’s sister. I stayed with her and my uncle. They lived up there and had been there for years. And I had some place to stay, but I didn’t have any money so I had to get out and get a job. And I found a job. I found a job. And then I went to school and like I said, I loved it. I just loved it. It was such…such wonderful people there. Good teachers that really took time with you to make sure you learned every detail about everything. I just loved it. I really did.

HAY: So what made you decide to come back to Frankfort?

WASHINGTON: Do I have to answer that honestly? [Chuckle] My ex-husband.

HAY: So had you met him before you left?

WASHINGTON: I had met him before I left. Uh huh.

HAY: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: Yeah. And we corresponded a lot while I was in school. Then, for my birthday, that second year I was up there, he gave me a ring. And one thing led to another so…I came home.

HAY: You came home.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: And then tell me about your kids.

WASHINGTON: I have two girls. Laura is my oldest daughter. She’s forty-seven. And my youngest daughter is Tammy. She is three years younger. She’s forty-three. She has a son. And Laura has two girls. And then her oldest daughter has a son, and that’s my great-grandson. He’s really really adorable. I know that sounds prejudice but…you know how it is when they’re small and they’re young. They’re just precious. You just love everything about them.

HAY: I bet. Gorgeous.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: So, lets go back in time. Tell me about your parents and what growing up…tell me who your parents are and what growing up in Frankfort was like for you. And about your brothers and sisters, and…

0: 5:00 …-0: 6:00WASHINGTON: My mom’s name is Martha Johnson Jones and my father’s name is Samuel Jones. I’m from a family of thirteen, believe it or not. And growing up was sort of difficult, but it was acceptable because just about everybody during that time in the neighborhood where I lived were all in the same class of people, you know. We had homes similar to each other. All the houses were alike, you know. You kind of did the same thing, you know. It wasn’t a big neighborhood, but it was a nice neighborhood. It was close, like I said, close to Mayo Underwood. It was walking distance…one block from my house. My teacher would always tell me, “You don’t have to be late every morning, because you live too close to the school.”

HAY: [Chuckle] She knew exactly where you lived and you…

WASHINGTON: Exactly.

HAY: You should be getting out of bed sooner. [Chuckle]

WASHINGTON: Exactly. But they were good teachers. They were very good teachers. And some of the teachers that taught me, taught my mom. And I thought that was so interesting. I really did.

HAY: So your mom grew up in Frankfort?

WASHINGTON: She grew up in Frankfort. Yes.

HAY: And so she went to Mayo Underwood too?

WASHINGTON: She went to a school called Clinton Street School. That was the first black school. And then Mayo Underwood was built several years later, and that’s the school I went to.

HAY: And some of those teachers…

WASHINGTON: Some of those teachers…

HAY: …had moved?

WASHINGTON: Had moved from Clinton Street to Mayo Underwood.

HAY: And then what about your dad? Was he from Frankfort?

WASHINGTON: My dad was from a little place called Melville, Kentucky. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that, but he was from there. And he went to school for a short while. He had to drop out when he was in the eighth grade because the World War II was going on then. And his brothers went, but by him being the oldest brother, he wasn’t allowed to go to the service. He had to stay there and help his folks on the farm. So he did not go to high school or college.

HAY: And then tell me about your…all of your brothers and sisters. Thirteen of you? And where are you in that order?

WASHINGTON: I am the oldest. [Laughter] Believe it. I’m kind of like the second mom. [Laughter] Five brothers. Six brothers and six…and five sisters and all of them are close by, but they’re kind of scattered, you know. I have two brothers that live in Louisville, and a sister that lives in Des Moines, Iowa. A sister that lives in Dayton, Ohio. And a sister that lives in…it’s funny how we are all scattered. All in the education field though, except for me. I was in the medical field. Worked at the hospital for forty-two years and then retired. So, I have brothers and sisters…Frankfort…quite a few of them here in Frankfort, and some of them are not.

HAY: And what…are they teachers and…?

WASHINGTON: Teachers…Yes, teachers, coaches, basketball coaches, everything you name it. One of the brothers is doing that. [Chuckle] Yep.

HAY: So you were the Jones family, right?

WASHINGTON: Jones family, right.

HAY: And there were a lot of you, obviously.

WASHINGTON: A lot. A lot.

HAY: A lot. I’m just going to pause us for a second and see if that’s…yeah.

0: 7:00 …-0: 8:00 [Interruption]

WASHINGTON: …he was born, and then there’s two brothers born. And then there was another one, but he died at birth. So, then there was a long pause before she had any more children. Then the second set started. [Laughter]

HAY: So your mom actually birthed fourteen…is that what you…or was it a total of thirteen?

WASHINGTON: Total of thirteen.

HAY: Total of thirteen.

WASHINGTON: There’s two…there’s two siblings dead.

HAY: Ok.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. My oldest sister. Her name was Anna Pricilla. She was born first. And she died of pneumonia. At that time, they didn’t have penicillin so she didn’t have any medical help. And then when my brother died, we thought progress was really being made. He needed a blood transfusion and had to be shipped from Frankfort to Lexington for the blood transfusion, but he died in transit on the way because they didn’t do tran…they did not do blood transfusions here in Frankfort on infants. See, he was a newborn.

HAY: And he didn’t make the trip.

WASHINGTON: And he didn’t make the trip. No.

HAY: Gosh. Times change.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: So, tell me…what did you do for fun when you were a kid?

0: 9:00 …-0: 10:00WASHINGTON: I’ll tell you this…I think is hilarious. Because kids always say they don’t have anything to do. And I told my girls I said, “When I was coming up, we had Sock Hops,” and she said, “What’s a Sock Hop?” I said, “It’s where you take your shoes off and you have a house party. Alright? That makes since. That’s why we called it the Sock Hop. You take your shoes off and you have lots of goodies to eat. You know, hot dogs, hamburgers, sandwiches and stuff, and you play records and you dance and you just have a good time.”

HAY: So where did you do it? You did it at…

WASHINGTON: At friend’s houses.

HAY: At friend’s houses.

WASHINGTON: At friend’s houses. Uh huh. Every now and then we’d have a real big one, and it would be held at the school in the gymnasium. But you still had to remove your shoes to go inside to dance.

HAY: And that’s why it was a Sock Hop.

WASHINGTON: A Sock Hop, right.

HAY: Let me just check one thing. Turn it off. Thanks [..]

0: 11:00 …-0: 12:00 [Interruption]

HAY: Ok, so Sock Hops.

WASHINGTON: Yeah.

HAY: So why would you take your shoes off?

WASHINGTON: Well, mainly to not scuff up the floors, you know. Back during that day, we did a lot of hand stuff, you know. You would clean them, polish them, shine them up really good, but then you don’t want to come in with shoes on and scuff them up, so you would remove your shoes, dance and have a good time, and you wouldn’t scuff up anybody’s floors.

HAY: What kind of music were you dancing to?

WASHINGTON: Oh, gosh. Everything. Otis Ray. Do you remember him? I loved him. Fats Domino. Isley Brothers. Do you remember that? Um…you can’t be that old.

HAY: I know all those names though. [Laughter] I wasn’t there. Those were great names.

WASHINGTON: They were who we danced to. Uh huh. I was trying to think of somebody else. Ray Charles, although he’s not…Al Green, you know. I didn’t have a favorite because I just liked to dance. And so…what ever was playing. If anybody would ask me to dance, I would just get up and dance so…I didn’t have a favorite. But a lot of people did. I just thought all music was good.

HAY: Was everybody willing to dance, or were there shy…the shy ones?

WASHINGTON: You know…you know how it starts out? The girls on one side. The guys on another side. After ten or fifteen minutes, they kind of migrate together and they would dance and have a good time. There was a few that were shy, but most of the kids…they would dance. They would dance. Everybody was. And girls…you know…if the guys wouldn’t dance with us, we’d dance with ourselves, you know. It was great. [Chuckle]

HAY: I bet that was fun.

WASHINGTON: We weren’t shy at all.

HAY: So that’s uh…so Sock Hops when you were a teenager. What about when you were younger? Like games you would play with friends or…

WASHINGTON: Like I said before, I started working at a very early age, you know. After school I would always have an afternoon job, you know. Out of necessity because there were things that I would want and my parents couldn’t buy me. Simple things like a watch or your birthstone. Things that some of the other kids had. And you thought, “Well, if I just had a little job, I could get those things.” And so I had one. I had one.

HAY: So what was your job? What was your first job?

WASHINGTON: My first job was a babysitting job when I was twelve years old. Uh huh. I had lots of them.

HAY: Did you?

WASHINGTON: Lots of those. Uh huh.

HAY: All age kids or the babies or…?

WASHINGTON: All ages. All ages. And it’s so funny because a lot of those children are grown now and it’s fun to see them. And I’ll say, “Do you remember when I used to baby-sit you?” [Chuckle]

HAY: So you talked earlier about how you would take that baby-sitting money and you’d come here to The Grand Theatre too.

WASHINGTON: I would. I would. I really would. Especially on Saturdays. That was such a big day because I didn’t have to work. I didn’t have to go to school. And I would wait until about…I think my favorite time to come was between five and seven.

HAY: So going into…into the evening hours.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: And then how long would you stay?

WASHINGTON: Well, you could…oh, depending on the age, you know. I was not allowed to stay out very late. Like I said, I think I really didn’t have a lot of dates until I was about sixteen. Uh huh. That’s when they started. But then you had to be home by ten so I don’t know whether you’d call that a date or not. [Chuckle]

HAY: So who was the…who was the taskmaster in your family? Who was…was it your mom or your dad setting the rules and the curfews and…?

WASHINGTON: My mom. Oh! My dad was kind of the easygoing person and what ever she said went, you know. She would put her foot down and she said, “I want you home at ten.” She meant ten, not five after ten. I can remember coming home from a date and it wouldn’t be quite ten and I would stand on the porch and I would talk to my date. And at ten o’clock the light on the front porch would flick off and on. That meant it’s time to come in. [Chuckle] And you…and you had to go in. I mean you couldn’t stand there and just say I’ll go in in a few minutes because it just didn’t happen. It just did not happen. I hope you cut all this out. [Laughter] My mom was a very strict person. But, she meant ten o’clock. And as I got older, you know, I understood why. Because if you have to take care of that many children, you have to have some type of rule that you have to go by. You couldn’t let them get away with coming in at ten or ten-thirty. You would have no control. So she made her rules, and she set them, and she enforced them.

HAY: It was probably the only way she could keep her sanity.

WASHINGTON: Exactly. Exactly.

HAY: And she couldn’t be too lenient or chaos would ensue, right? Everybody would take advantage of her and she couldn’t have that happen.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. She wasn’t going to have that happen. No. She was not.

HAY: Now, did she work also?

WASHINGTON: She never worked. No. She couldn’t. She couldn’t. It wouldn’t have been worth her while to work. I mean…because…with that many children, you just couldn’t. You couldn’t do that.

HAY: And that was pretty unusual to have…in those…in that era…to have that many children.

WASHINGTON: Well, not really. Not really. There were several families that had a lot of kids. Several families. The Barnett’s had lots of sisters and brothers. The Davis’s. You know…um…as far back as I can remember there were quite a few families that had a lot of children.

HAY: That’s really interesting.

WASHINGTON: A lot. Uh huh. Yeah.

HAY: And were they neighbors of yours? Did they live in the same area?

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Same area. Uh huh. Exactly.

HAY: So what was The Bottom like in those days? Crawl?

WASHINGTON: Well, you know, it was so funny because even though I lived in that area, there was certain areas you couldn’t go because of your age, you know. And I used to say, “When I get eighteen, I’m going to those places.” But, of course, when I got to be eighteen, The Bottom was no longer there. [Chuckle] To me, it was exciting, you know. It was a place that…it wasn’t a lot of…I’m trying to think of a good way to put this, but…it wasn’t a lot of wrong doing going on in that area, you know. I keep moving, I know.

HAY: You’re fine.

WASHINGTON: But, it was just a place that the adults would go to have fun. They really would. They would go to have fun. There was a pool hall there. There was a barber shop there. There was a beauty shop there. There was a laundry mat there. There were quite a few restaurants where you could go to sit down to eat, you know. But it was exciting to me because until you were eighteen, you couldn’t go in those places. And I just thought, “When I get to be eighteen, I am going to all those places that I’m not supposed to go in.” [Chuckle] And, of course, when I got to be eighteen, it was all gone.

HAY: Because that was when Urban Renewal…

WASHINGTON: Exactly.

HAY: Took those sections of The Crawl.

WASHINGTON: Exactly.

HAY: Do you remember when that was happening and what you felt about that?

WASHINGTON: Well, I really felt…I felt sad because there were so few places that blacks could go and sit down and enjoy themselves. And not have any confrontations, you know. I remember adults really dressing up. I mean they would put on their…some would go in their best…to go in these places and have a good time. And I thought, “You know, I want to do that. I want to hang out with my mom and my dad.” But it never happened. By the time I got eighteen, you know, that area had been…The Crawl had been star…well, it hadn’t completely been condemned, but it was on its way. It was on its way. A lot of it had been torn down.

HAY: So had the rest…the restaurants were closed?

WASHINGTON: The restaurants were closed.

HAY: The bars?

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. All that stuff.

HAY: So what took…what took the place of those gatherings spots for that community?

WASHINGTON: Well, you know, a lot of things just kind of died out. Nothing really replaced it. It really…nothing really replaced it. By that time, most of the kids were teenagers. The parents felt like they spent a lot of time keeping up with the teenagers, you know. You wanted to make sure your kids had a good education, so you kind of spent what extra money you had sending them to college if they didn’t have scholarships, you know. A lot of parents were really keen on edu…on going to church. Religion. So they made sure their kids were going to church. Had church activities. Teachers kind of had a community center and we kind of went there on weekends. So, as far as activities replacing what the adults did, I can’t remember. I really cannot remember a lot of stuff that went on. A few dances, maybe.

HAY: Because everything was changing in those years. Wasn’t it? For instance, the restaurants like…well, I know that certain restaurants in parts of Frankfort blacks couldn’t go into.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Exactly.

HAY: So did…when that changed, where then people were allowed to go into those restaurants, is that the same time that…that Crawl was condemned, or…?

WASHINGTON: I think it…I think it was a combination of both. Like I said, because it didn’t all happen at one time. It wasn’t like you woke up one day and it was all gone, you know. It didn’t happen that fast, you know. Like I said, in ’58, I can remember that year because that is the year that I finished high school, and that is the year that The Crawl started closing down. The restaurants started closing, you know. Because places like the laundry mat, the beauty shop, and the barber shop…those are not the places that I’m talking about. Anybody could go there. Anytime. But there were other restaurants there that my age group, you know, had to wait until they were a certain age to go in, you know. And we would go that way to go to The Capitol…to go to The Grand Theatre. Sometimes we would go from my house and we would go up through The Crawl, and then we’d cut over to the…to the old Capitol yard and go uptown through that way. I wanted to get a look to see what everybody else was doing, you know. This is…we thought was so great for our parents, and we just knew it was going to be great for us. But it never materialized.

HAY: It didn’t. That was an era…a by-gone era. By the time you…

WASHINGTON: A by-gone era. Right.

HAY: But still, it seems like there are so many fond memories of the community and the neighborliness of those…of those years.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Yeah. It was. It really was.

HAY: Yeah. So um…so coming to The Grand Theatre. You said the first time you came you thought you were how old?

0: 13:00 …-0: 14:00WASHINGTON: I kind of think I was eleven or twelve. I think I came earlier, but I came supervised. Either with a teacher or an adult, you know. And on certain…certain matinee times, they would have cartoons, you know. When, you know, your folks would say, “Let’s go to the movies.” And you could get…it was right next-door to the five-and-dime store. So, you could stop in there and get buckets of candy. I can remember my grandfather buying me candy and it was in a little red bucket. It was about that big. And it was only twenty-five cents. So he would put some of that candy in your pocket so you wouldn’t have to spend any money once you got into The Grand Theatre. [Chuckle]

HAY: Couldn’t carry your bucket in though could you?

WASHINGTON: Couldn’t carry your bucket in. No. [Laughter] No. I mean, really, those…those days were fun days. They were fun days. But you were supervised with a grandparent or your mom and dad or a schoolteacher.

HAY: So a schoolteacher on the weekend might bring you?

WASHINGTON: Oh, we had a teacher that was just so…she was wonderful. She was just wonderful. But she would make arrangements like through the week, you know. She would say, “You know, so and so is playing. Would you kids like to go? Check with your parents to see if you can go.” If the answer was yes, then she would say, “Ok. Saturday we will get together about twelve noon and we’ll go to the movies and we’ll see it.” Stay to see it two or three times. And when you came out, you know, it was almost dusk dark, so you had a great day. A great day.

HAY: And everybody knew you were supervised…

WASHINGTON: Everybody knew you were su…

HAY: You were safe. Your parents knew where you were.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Exactly. Exactly. Uh huh.

HAY: So what kind of movies did you like the best?

WASHINGTON: Oh, like I said, I am a…a cowboy buff. I love Cowboys and Indians. [Laughter]

HAY: Did you have a favorite cowboy star?

WASHINGTON: Oh, yes. Yes. Roy Rogers was my star. He could sing and he was good looking. [Laughter]

HAY: So did you know all the cowboys and their horses? Like what their horses were and…

WASHINGTON: Roy Rogers and Trigger. [Chuckle] You know, I always forgot about the dog. Because he had a dog. Did you know that?

HAY: I didn’t know about the dog.

WASHINGTON: Oh, Roy Rogers had a dog. The horse was Trigger, but I always forget the dog.

HAY: But, the dog was always in the films too?

WASHINGTON: Always in the films too. Yeah. Uh huh. Bullet. There it is. [Laughter] Yep.

HAY: What was it about the cowboy…cowboy movies that you liked?

WASHINGTON: I just thought they were so macho, you know. And they were always the good guy, you know. They always wore the white hat, you know. You knew who the bad guy was because he wore black, you know. But, the good guy always wore the white hat, you know. It was great.

HAY: It was all very simple and straightforward.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: We’ve got somebody there? Hi Mary. We’ll take a little pause for a second.

WASHINGTON: Ok.

0: 15:00 …-0: 16:00 [Interruption]

HAY: Do you remember ever seeing any live shows here at the theatre?

WASHINGTON: No.

HAY: Alright. Some people do, but most people don’t. What was downtown like in those days?

WASHINGTON: Downtown was um…lets see. Lots and lots of stores. Family owned stores. Shoe stores. Clothing stores. The five-and-dime. Furniture stores. A couple of banks.

HAY: And this is where your family would do their shopping? Would they…

WASHINGTON: Uh hum.

HAY: If you needed furniture, it was all in this area.

WASHINGTON: All in this area.

HAY: Clothing.

WASHINGTON: Everything was kind of in this area. Simon’s Furniture Store was not in the downtown area per say. But most blacks bought their furniture there. And Marker’s Furniture Store was downtown, and a lot of people bought…blacks bought their furniture there. It’s so amazing that Selbert’s is still here. And they’re thriving and doing good business so I understand. I really un…I just think it’s great that somebody can endure everything that’s happened—made that transition—and they’re still here and in business.

HAY: It is amazing.

WASHINGTON: It is, isn’t it?

HAY: To have a service that could still compete with the suburbs. I guess that was the big change, wasn’t it?

WASHINGTON: It was the big change, right. Uh huh.

HAY: Everybody went shopping out.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: Do you remember the crowds and everything in town?

0: 17:00 …-0: 18:00WASHINGTON: Yeah. On weekends it was extremely crowded. I remember growing up that on special occasions like Easter that you would have an Easter parade, and the girls had to make their hats, and it was held in the Old Capitol yard. It was really…and if you had a nice hat, or people liked your hat, you could win a prize. [Chuckle]

HAY: How fun. Did you enter it?

WASHINGTON: Sometimes when I was younger, yes. Yes. Uh huh.

HAY: So would it be the little girls?

WASHINGTON: Three different levels of girls. The tiny ones, the middle aged, and the bigger girls. Uh huh.

HAY: Was that organized by a particular group or church or…?

WASHINGTON: Group, yes. I don’t think it was church. I really don’t. And I can’t remember who really was behind it, but I don’t think it was church. I really don’t.

HAY: That’s neat. That’s neat.

WASHINGTON: It was neat though.

HAY: What about…what about the problems with the places you were allowed to go to and the places you weren’t allowed to go to? What do you remember about that? And what do you remember feeling about that? Like the restaurants you couldn’t go into. What was that like?

WASHINGTON: Well, I think it was kind of intimidating that you couldn’t go certain places, you know. And to tell you the truth…and then when you were allowed to go, I don’t think many went. I think you were so…it was such a…the transition between going and not going, it went a lot smoother than people thought, you know. Some places allowed you to come in and there was no problem, and then other places would not, you know. I remember…do you remember Horn’s Drug Store? Are you from this area? Ok.

HAY: I grew up in Louisville.

WASHINGTON: Ok. That was a place that we were not allowed to go in for a number of years. But, the day after I finished high school, it was opened to blacks. And I thought that was so weird. I don’t know what prompted that, but it happened. Uh huh.

HAY: And then did people go?

WASHINGTON: Some went. Well, I’ll tell you one reason why they did go there. There was a pharmacist there and you needed medication. You needed prescriptions filled. And people would use that drug store to go in there and get your prescriptions filled. Uh huh.

HAY: Before that, was there another drug store that was convenient?

WASHINGTON: Well, you know, I think there were…I hate to use incorrect English…I think it was, but most of the doctors took care of you. If you needed medication, your doctor would get that medicine for you.

HAY: So you were used to getting it from the doctor’s office rather than going out to the pharmacy.

WASHINGTON: Out to the…uh huh.

HAY: How interesting. So as that transition occurred, what were some of the feelings there? Was there animosity? Was there anger? Was there bitterness? What was…?

WASHINGTON: Uh, yes. There was a lot of anger. A lot of bitterness. In 1957, I think it was, and maybe the latter parts of ‘57 – ‘58, crosses were burned here. And they were burned in our neighborhood. In my neighborhood especially. And it was so devastating. It was one weekend that we could not forget. We couldn’t sleep at night because we didn’t know what was going to happen. But I can remember of that particular incident like it was yesterday because it was right next to my grandmother’s house, and she lived right there on the corner of Hill Street and Washington Street. And it wasn’t just one cross. They burned three.

HAY: Was that on one night or over a period of time?

WASHINGTON: On one night.

HAY: I bet you never forget that.

WASHINGTON: You won’t. You really won’t.

HAY: And I guess…so in 1957 and 1958 that’s just as things are…you were really graduating from high school as things were…

WASHINGTON: High school.

HAY: …really changing fast.

WASHINGTON: Exactly. Uh huh.

HAY: Do you remember the March on Frankfort when Doctor Martin Luther King came?

WASHINGTON: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I remember it well. I didn’t get to participate, but I remember it. My pastor—who is now deceased—was part of getting that march together. Reverend K.L. Moore. And, like I said, he’s no longer here. But it was an event that I don’t think anybody in Frankfort will forget. I was standing on the sideline. I remember it well.

0: 19:00 …-0: 20:00HAY: So when you say, “Standing on the sideline,” do you mean you watched the march go by?

WASHINGTON: I watched the march. Uh huh.

HAY: Wow! I bet that was an amazing feeling.

WASHINGTON: Oh, it was. I just wanted to be out there in the midst of everybody else. I really did.

HAY: So why were you standing on the side rather than walking?

WASHINGTON: Be…for some reason or another…and I can’t really remember why. I don’t know if I had been working that day, or that afternoon, or didn’t get to…I didn’t get to participate in the march, but I got to see it, you know. I really wished I could have been walking with everybody else. Uh huh. I really wanted to be a part of that.

HAY: Do you remember what street you were standing on, or where you were standing?

WASHINGTON: I think I was over by the bridge. Uh huh.

HAY: And how many people marched that day?

WASHINGTON: Oh! Gobs and gobs. Buses were from everywhere. It was just wonderful. It just…it was just a sight you just cannot forget.

HAY: So was the crowd all the way from the bridge all the way up?

WASHINGTON: All the way across. All the way up to The Capitol. Uh huh.

HAY: And had the busses come from out-of-state as well as…?

WASHINGTON: As well as I can remember. Uh hum.

HAY: I think they had.

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Uh huh.

HAY: I bet that was amazing. [Chuckle]

WASHINGTON: It was. Oh! It was.

HAY: So that was early ‘60’s, right?

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Yeah.

HAY: When that happened. So you had already gone to Indianapolis and come back at that point.

WASHINGTON: And come back. Right.

HAY: And your youngest…your oldest was already born?

WASHINGTON: Right.

HAY: Yeah?

WASHINGTON: No. No, she was born in ’62.

HAY: Ok. Ok. Alright, so those were interesting times. What…back to those earlier years too…do you remember thinking about the fact that this balcony here was segregated, and that you had to sit in the balcony?

WASHINGTON: Well, I always thought about it. I never understood…never understood segregation. I never understood that to begin with. But, since you…since I was born, it was always a fact there you were not allowed to go in downstairs to sit down. You just couldn’t go. So when we came to the movies, you got your ticket and you knew where you were supposed to go. You just did it. It wasn’t an afterthought. You just did it automatically because that’s the way things had always been. I think there was a lot of bitterness. I think there was a lot of hatred. And I think it was one of the reasons why we threw the popcorn over—and the boxes and stuff, you know. We thought, “Well, if we can’t sit where we want to sit…” So when it was time for us to leave, we should…[Laughter] We would just throw the popcorn. Box and all. [Laughter] But, you know, popcorn won’t hurt anybody. The boxes didn’t hurt anybody, you know. And I think people down here had gotten used to it so…it wasn’t much done. [Laughter]

HAY: And now that you look back on it, you were sort of acting out then. You know, acting out a little bit.

WASHINGTON: Oh, gracious. That’s all it was.

HAY: You know. Adolescent. Teenagers do that kind of thing anyway. And the combination and aggression. But now, to laugh about it when you’re looking back.

WASHINGTON: It’s funny now.

HAY: It’s got…you’ve got tears in your eyes.

WASHINGTON: [Laughter] But, it was something. It was a little aggression we were trying to act out. That’s all it was. All one person had to say was, “It’s your turn to throw the popcorn over.” So…[Laughter]…so, we would just do it. Sometimes we would come out of the movies and sometimes we would run. Anticipating something would happen, you know. We would just run down the street. When we got to The Capitol, we knew we were in safe territory so we would stop running there. [Laughter] Oh! It was part of the youth though.

HAY: It’s just so funny. Did you ever go to The Capitol Theatre later on?

WASHINGTON: Yes. Yes.

HAY: What do you remember about that?

WASHINGTON: I don’t think I went that often, but I did go and most of the time it was a movie that I really wanted to see and I know they didn’t show it here, you know. I would go to The Capitol. We always went in bunches, you know. There were always four or five girls would go together, and then we’d go out to eat afterwards. Go to Frischs or someplace like that and get a bite to eat, but we had no problem there. I didn’t. I really didn’t. We just went to the movie. And when it was over, you just got up and left and that was the end of it.

HAY: Do you remember where you sat?

WASHINGTON: No. I was sitting anyplace then. I mean, you know, where I wanted to sit.

HAY: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Yeah.

HAY: Let’s see what else I wanted to ask you about. Yeah, Mary?

0: 21:00 …-0: 22:00 [Interruption]

WASHINGTON: Ruby Dee was a character. She was so talented that even back during the day, she had a lot of good roles. She did not play the part of the maid. Not ever. Not ever.

HAY: Was she…?

WASHINGTON: But, Ethel Waters, you know, absolutely wonderful singer. A wonderful singer. And her roles were geared around her voice so that she wouldn’t have to play a maid, you know. So as the years passed by, they began to learn to utilize the black female as anything but a maid. So the roles were made around what they were talented in. A lot of it was dancing for the males. Which there were good male roles, singers and dancers. But for the female, it was a difficult thing. Very difficult.

HAY: I didn’t have the camera rolling when you were talking about those films that Mary…the other…that Mary West had brought up. Could you talk about that again? About those…the films and how…how you…how the roles for women were so limited.

WASHINGTON: They were limited. They were. But you know what? When they started utilizing blacks in movies, you know, they were not put in good roles. They were black faced people which are…they’re already black, you know. They were people…[Cough]…they were people that had limited speaking roles, and the roles that they did have were “black voiced” per say. You know, that slang that they have. Black heritage sound like…they’re not literate, you know. They did a lot of that. And that was one reason why I did not watch a lot of those movies, because it made us all sound like we were tongue-tied, or we were from the ghetto, or we couldn’t speak fluently, you know. So I think that turned a lot of people off. Especially black people watching the movies that were made. That were made. And then when they…like I said…they started making movies and giving them roles around their talent—their singing voices…their dancing—you know, the movies got better. They got better. And you would always say, “Oh, God! Sammy Davis is going to sing in this movie.” Or they had him as a boxer. You know, even though he was a little man, they had him as a giant boxer in one movie and I thought, “Man, this is really great.” You know. But, that was one reason why I did not like black movies for a long time. Because we are not illiterate. We don’t talk all with a slang. We don’t all sound like we’re from the south, you know. And that’s the way they characterized us. Which I thought was so difficult. It was so wrong. You know. We are people. Just people. You know, I have a hard time talking right now because I’ve got in dentures. [Laughter]

HAY: You’re talking just fine. [Laughter]

WASHINGTON: We just…I just had…I had a problem with movies. I really did. But as long as I stuck with the cowboys, boy. Hey, that was my thing.

HAY: Isn’t that interesting. But there weren’t any black characters in the cowboy films.

WASHINGTON: Very few. There was one or two. There was one or two.

HAY: One or two.

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MARY WEST: Sidekicks.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. I’ll tell you one that…Blazing Saddles. Have you ever seen that? [Laughter] There was a character there. [Laughter]

MARY WEST: That was the ‘70’s.

HAY: Yeah. That was…that was a new take on the cowboy movie.

WASHINGTON: Right. Right.

HAY: Wasn’t it? What did you think about the character in Gone With The Wind? The maid…Mammy.

WASHINGTON: Mammy? You know, Gone With The Wind was such an excellent movie. It’s hard to be critical of that movie, even though the character in there was not really a good character for um…what was her name? Bert…

HAY: I should know her name. And she won an Academy Award.

WASHINGTON: She won an Academy Award for that movie. Uh huh. Uh huh. And you would have thought with her high-pitched voice, you know, that she wouldn’t have done well. But, she did. She did.

HAY: That people would have forgotten her.

WASHINGTON: And special roles, you know. “I don’t know nothing about birthing no babies,” you know. [Laughter] She just died recently too.

HAY: Oh, really? I hadn’t heard that.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. Yeah.

HAY: None of us have ever forgotten her, but she was playing a maid.

WASHINGTON: She played a maid. Uh hum.

HAY: Yep. So. That’s interesting.

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Eventually, I think I’ll get to the place where…I think a lot of times it’s so painful to watch some of those movies, you know. To Kill A Mockingbird. You know. The Burning Of Mississippi. I still can’t watch that movie. I really cannot. Roots. I can’t watch all of it because it’s so painful. And it’s so true. It is so true. A lot of people don’t believe that, but that…those are true movies.

HAY: It hits you in your…

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. It does.

HAY: …in you gut.

WASHINGTON: It does. Uh hum. Yeah.

MARY WEST: [..] That was hard for me.

WASHINGTON: Color Purple.

HAY: Yep. Yep. Thanks Mary. That was a good question. [Laughter]

0: 23:00 -0: 24:00 [Interruption]

HAY: Ok. Alright. So a couple more things as we wrap up our interview.

WASHINGTON: Ok.

HAY: It’s been so interesting. [Chuckle] Do you feel that in the black community there is still some bitterness towards The Grand Theatre from the memory of the old days, and then even applied to now? Can you explain…help me understand that a little bit?

WASHINGTON: Well, I think there will always be some resentment there. That’s part of life that you cannot erase because it happened. And when it did happen, it was painful. You can’t erase pain, you know. So a lot of people can remember what happened when they were younger. Some of the things that happened to them that wouldn’t have been pleasant. I was fortunate. I didn’t have many incidents that happened to me personally, but a lot of other people did, you know. I never had the doors shut in my face here. Some people did, you know. I never had anybody tell me that I couldn’t come in. That I couldn’t go. But some people did. So I think it depends upon the person, you know. And I think it’s the same way with anything. I think…Frankfort to me is one of the nicest places you could live in. But then, I’ve had a few incidents that have really really hurt me. One time, after my baby was born…my oldest daughter was born…and I was just taking her for a walk around the neighborhood—it was a nice evening—and some guys came by in a car and threw a bottle of urine at me. See. No matter how well Frankfort gets, I will always remember that. And that’s what happens when people have to go through certain things that they shouldn’t have to go through. The indecent things. The things that hurt you the most are the things that you remember. So, until it happens to you, you don’t remember it.

HAY: Right.

WASHINGTON: You don’t remember it, you know. So, it’s just difficult to erase certain things. It really is.

HAY: So can you explain…so were there some people that weren’t…that were barred from the door? From coming here?

WASHINGTON: I think. And I think it was during a time before my time, but when The Grand Theatre first opened, and it was opened to blacks, I think a lot of people had a difficult time getting in when it first opened. Yes. Uh huh.

HAY: For…why? Just random…?

WASHINGTON: Just because for so long blacks weren’t admitted. They weren’t admitted.

HAY: And then when they would try?

WASHINGTON: And then when they would try, they could not get in.

HAY: Even though they were…they were allowed. I mean, supposedly. But they were still turned away at the door?

WASHINGTON: They were still turned away. Uh huh.

HAY: Yeah. That’s hard to stomach…hard to stomach.

WASHINGTON: It is. It really is. Uh huh.

HAY: Yep. Yep. So…and what about the ways you talk about those times and…either with the elders or even with the younger generations…how do you find…how do you find you explain to the younger generations and the kids?

WASHINGTON: You don’t.

HAY: How…?

WASHINGTON: You don’t. It’s just like them not having black history in schools now, you know. How can you…how can you not have part of black history other than February? I mean we’ve been here forever. How can you pick one month and say, “We’re going to take this month just for you all.” [Chuckle] You can’t do that. That’s like they said the Indians weren’t the first ones here, you know. Give me a break, you know. There are certain things that it’s hard for people to understand what somebody else has gone through, you know. I could sit here and talk to you all afternoon, but I don’t think I could make you understand the pain that some people have gone through to get where we are now.

HAY: Yeah. I can’t feel…I can’t feel it.

WASHINGTON: You can’t feel it.

HAY: I can hear it. I can intellectualize it. And I can think about it, but I could never feel it.

WASHINGTON: Exactly. Uh huh.

HAY: Because I wasn’t there.

WASHINGTON: You weren’t there.

HAY: Yeah. And it’s interesting. So when you talk to…to even…like your kids and then your grandkids about…about what it was like for you. And then how…how do you help them come to terms with how things are better now, or how things also perhaps aren’t…aren’t better in some cases let’s say?

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: How do you…how do you…how did you do that when your kids were coming up?

WASHINGTON: It wasn’t such a problem with them, you know. The worst part of integration was over with in certain areas, you know. For my kids, and my grandson, he doesn’t understand what we went through. He’s five now going on six. And he doesn’t understand the language barrier. Things that were said to you for no reason whatsoever, you know. Because your skin is a different color. He doesn’t have to understand that. And my children didn’t understand that because nothing like that happened to them, you know. They had gone to Second Street School here in Frankfort and then Frankfort High. And things like that were happening so seldom, they did not have to visualize, or understand, you know, what racism is because the worst part of it was not…was over with, you know. So, they never saw that. They never got…they never had to go through it. It’s hard for me to say to you, “Gosh, when I was coming up, it was so bitter. It was just…people were just so mean. People were just…” Because I didn’t go through all that. I had a few things happen to me, but I’ve never heard anybody be really really bitter and nasty to me. Never. You know. I was blessed. I really was because I didn’t have to go through all that. These children go through even less. And if you don’t explain to them, or don’t write it down in your history books so that they…that they can learn, they will never know this. They will never know this.

HAY: So it’s important to talk about it.

WASHINGTON: It’s…it’s very important.

HAY: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: Very.

HAY: Well, that’s…that’s why I have really wanted to do these interviews, and kind of try to connect, you know.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: The Grand Theatre being the place where you could come…you could come.

WASHINGTON: You could come. You could come.

HAY: When you were growing up.

WASHINGTON: Uh hum.

0: 25:00 …-0: 26:00HAY: It’s symbol…it has a particular significance in the community.

WASHINGTON: Uh hum. Very much.

HAY: So if you were to summarize, what…what you think the significance of The Grand is in the community of Frankfort or for the black community, what is it? What is it?

WASHINGTON: You know, I think The Grand Theatre was a very, very important part of growing up because it was a place I could go, my friends could go, my parents could go, and see a good movie and have a good time. Like I said, we watched movies over and over. [Chuckle] Sometimes when we left the movie theatre, it was dark outside, you know. But, you went and you had a good time, and it didn’t cost you very much money. And your friends could go with you. And I just thought…I think it played a vital part. I really do. I really do. Except for the separation right here. Right here.

HAY: And that will always linger.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: You will always remember that.

WASHINGTON: Yeah. Uh hum. Yeah.

HAY: And I always think that hurts both communities as much.

WASHINGTON: And there was a lot of friends, I mean black and white, that couldn’t sit next to each other. Couldn’t talk while they were here because of the separation.

HAY: One person I interviewed, he talked about…he was a white boy and he grew up on Lewis Street. And so grew up playing in the Capitol yard.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh.

HAY: Black and white. Everybody playing together. All the kids playing together. And they would all come to the movies at The Grand. They’d walk up St…up from The Capitol together, walk up St. Clair, and at the door they’d have to separate.

WASHINGTON: Separate. Uh hum.

HAY: And none of them understood why. He said, “We wanted to sit upstairs and they wanted to sit downstairs.” [Chuckle]

WASHINGTON: Sometimes you can’t please everybody. [Laughter]

HAY: And then I think there were some rebellious teenagers who…you know…white teenagers who would sneak upstairs and feel like they, you know, were rocking the boat a little bit.

WASHINGTON: And got away with it, huh?

HAY: Got away with it. [Chuckle] But they weren’t barred from the door though either.

WASHINGTON: That’s true. That’s true.

HAY: Whites could sit upstairs.

WASHINGTON: Could sit either way. Either place.

HAY: And sometimes, I think, white kids would come with their housekeepers? Baby-sitters?

WASHINGTON: They might have…I just…

HAY: I heard some of those stories.

WASHINGTON: Well, they might have. I’m not saying they didn’t.

HAY: Yeah.

WASHINGTON: But they might have.

HAY: But it’s a str…it was a strange time.

WASHINGTON: Uh huh. It was. It truly was.

HAY: Well, is there anything else you would like to…that we haven’t touched on that you had wanted to say, or that had crossed your mind at one point?

WASHINGTON: No. I think this is interesting what you are doing. I think once you get it all compiled and you get it fixed up like you want it and people see it, I think they will understand what you’re doing. And I wish you the best of luck. I hope everything turns out well.

HAY: Thank you so much. And thank you for spending all this time with me today. [Chuckle]

WASHINGTON: I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

HAY: Thanks. Ok.

END OF TAPE 2

1: 27:00 …-0: 28:00END OF INTERVIEW

Total time: 1 hour, 21 minutes, 41 seconds