Oral History Interview with Clarence Metcalf Part I

“Stories From the Balcony”

Interviews about the Grand Theatre in Frankfort, Kentucky

Interview on Video with

Clarence Metcalf

On Location at The Grand Theatre

Tape 1 – 2007OH02.38.a

And

Tape 2 – 2007OH02.38b

Conducted by Joanna Hay

October 10, 2010

This project has been supported by the Kentucky Oral History Commission

And Save The Grand Theatre, Inc.

Interview with Clarence Metcalf begins with him seated in the balcony area of The Grand Theatre. A stairwell is behind him painted with blue and salmon coloring, trimmed in maroon.

HAY: So we’ll just have a conversation, and I’ll sit here and you can ignore the camera. METCALF: OK

HAY: And I’ll just have to every now and then glance at the screen to make sure…

METCALF: OK. I don’t have to be looking into the camera? OK.

HAY: No, just talk to me. Ignore the camera.

METCALF: OK

HAY: And if I glance over here, it’s just…[video portion of interview begins]…rolling for a second here. Rolling, and I’ll just make sure we have a signal. Hello, we are rolling and today is October the 10th, 2010. Ten-ten-ten.

METCALF: Um hum. Ten-ten-ten, yeah.

HAY: It’s ten-ten-ten today.

METCALF: Yeah, I didn’t think about that. Yeah, it is ten-ten-ten, yeah. It’s better than thirteen-thirteen-thirteen. [Laughter]

HAY: That’s better. My name is Joanna Hay and I’m here with Clarence Metcalf, and we are in the balcony area of The Grand Theatre in Frankfort, Kentucky. This is the oral history project, “Stories from the Balcony”, which we are doing for archiving at the Kentucky Historical Society.

METCALF: Um hum

HAY: Now I understand you have a nickname. [Laughter]

METCALF: I’ve got so many nicknames because no one hardly ever usually called me Clarence. I always would know when folks would say Clarence, it would be coming for my job or somebody that didn’t know me much. But, yeah, my uh…I’ve got a nickname. My one is Buzz, or Buzzy, or some say, you know, Calf, or Metcalf, or I’ve got all kinds, you know, but…yes I do.

HAY: Buzzy is the most common one, right?

METCALF: Yeah, probably so.

HAY: Buzz or Buzzy

METCALF: Uh huh. Yes.

HAY: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview, even though I hear the camera caught you by surprise. You didn’t know we were going to put a…have a video camera at this time. [Chuckle]

METCALF: Right. Oral would have been tough enough. [Laughter] When I begin to stutter and all that, you know.

HAY: So, let’s just start with some of the basics. Tell…even though we’ve covered…we’ve covered what your name is, and what my name is, can you just tell me what your name is, when you were born, and where you are from.

METCALF: Ok. My name is Clarence Edward Metcalf and I was born here in Frankfort, Kentucky in March of…March 26th, 1944.

HAY: And what were your parent’s names?

METCALF: My mother…my mother’s name was Jenny, and her maiden name was King. Jenny Elizabeth King. ‘Course then she married a Metcalf. My dad’s name was Edward Metcalf. They called him Edgar…his middle name…but my parents are both…but, Mom was from Louisville. Dad from here in Frankfort.

HAY: So, she moved to Frankfort then after they…after they met, right?

METCALF: I guess. “Cause as I figure…get started trying to figure, putting things together…she must have been close to maybe forty-four years old when I was born. Something like that. Thirty-nine…forty. So I’m talking about between thirty-nine and forty-four, you know. So…

HAY: Because you have older sisters you were telling me.

METCALF: I’ve got…right. I’ve got two older sisters. The oldest of which was…her name was Barbara Beatrice, and my younger sister’s name was Dolly May Graham. Metcalf, but then Graham. But, Dolly, the youngest one, was fourteen years older than myself. Right.

HAY: You were the baby.

METCALF: I was the baby. In fact, that was my nickname. That’s one of the big nicknames that I still carry around with the older people in Frankfort. That’s “Baby Brother” because that’s what they called me. So, I didn’t tell you that one. That was a nickname. But, certainly, that was a big one. [Chuckle]

HAY: That’s another big one. So, what neighborhood did you live in, and where did you go to school?

METCALF: I lived on the south side on Murray Street. On both the upper end and lower ends of Murray Street. And, in fact, the last place where I lived, you know, prior to school and the like, was where the …where the Dolly Graham Park is. That park is named after my sister. And that was the homestead until, I think it was the ’87 flood, and I think that that caused them to have to move from there. And, of course, you know, all of that’s history now because that was turned into a park; a nice park now.

HAY: So would um…so would that house…that would flood regularly when you were growing up?

METCALF: I really cannot remember it ever flooding while I was there. While I was living there. After I moved, I said ’87, I guess that was…must have been ’77, I guess…because at the time, I was living at that time in Detroit. I had already, you know, moved away and was living in Detroit. But, that was still there. And that’s the only time I can remember…I never remember us moving out, you know. Though certainly we had floods in Frankfort, but the floods that were there were prior to us moving down to that area until, you know, that one in…I’m thinking that I’m right, around ’77.

HAY: Ok. So, what do you remember doing for fun when you were a kid?

METCALF: Oh [Chuckle] all kind of things, but uh…one thing I say now all the time when I’m talking to younger people is that…how they need the computers and that type of a thing…but how we could take a bag of marbles and a stick horse and, you know, and have all the fun in the world. But we did…we certainly were crazy about playing ball, and hide-and-go-seek, and all kind of things. Can…what we would call Can, which is like a version of hide-and-go-seek, and…But we’d, of course, would swim. We’d swim, of course, in the Kentucky River, and we had a little area that the older guys had carved out called The Beach, and that was, you know, a ball for us. But, I guess, you know, all types…just all types of things, and certainly we were… You know, we’d wait for some neighbors in that area to leave and go to work so that we could use their yards and things to play football in, and that type of a thing. But, all those kind of things we would do.

HAY: So were there a lot of kids in the neighborhood that you played with?

METCALF: A lot of kids in the neighborhood. And, of course, we…I lived on the south side as I said, but we went to school over on the north side. Near the area that they used to call The Bottom. So naturally, not only would we play on the south side, but sometimes, you know, on the north side too with some of the kids and things over there so we felt like [..] got to play in.

HAY: So you went to Mayo Underwood?

METCALF: Mayo Underwood, yes.

HAY: So tell me about like the walk…would you walk to school in the mornings?

METCALF: Oh, yeah.

HAY: So tell me about the walk to school, and then walking back from school. What was that like? And who was with you?

METCALF: Well, of course, you know, not having…not knowing any other way of going because there wasn’t any school buses or that type of thing that I can remember now. Sometimes there would be members in the community that would give us a ride, or something like that, but most of the time we would walk to school, and I can just remember us…several of us in general would gather in the morning and maybe go to somebody’s house and maybe watch a little TV and then take off walking. It would be four or five of us, maybe, together and crossing the bridges and the like and…or we would be playing tag and all kind of things, you know, on our way to school and all. And it was…never can I remember it being such a terribly long walk or anything like that because we were so used to playing and running around, and I’m sure in pretty good shape. And those walks were really not that long. They were fun walks.

HAY: And school would let out at about what time? Like three?

METCALF: I guess around three o’clock. Around three o’clock.

HAY: Three o’clock or so. So then what would you do? After school?

METCALF: [Laughter] One thing we would do…we would for some reason the town of us kids were divided into three sections: the north side, the south side, and the hill. And the kids on the north side…so much of the time…it wasn’t really gang action, but it would still be similar because the kids on the north side…when they could catch us by ourselves and things like that, a lot of times they would try to beat us up and things, so sometimes we were figuring out a way how do we get home. [Chuckle] We’d try to catch a crowd going home so that we wouldn’t be left out. And we would try our best to be good in school because if the teacher kept you late, then you knew you had a battle trying to get back home, because you had to pass by all these guys that…these other kids on the roadside that would really want to beat you up and things of that sort. But, they still were fun times because all of us were…we really were crazy about one another. As we got older, that remained the same whether it be the kids on the north side, or on the hill, or in the south side we all were really close and have remained that way.

HAY: Were…the kids…the kids who lived on the hill…hang on a second. I forgot to put this on. I’m going to put a pause real quick.

0: 1:00 …-0: 2:00HAY: Ok, we’re rolling again. So what about…now the kids that lived on the hill, did they also go to Mayo Underwood?

METCALF: Some did. Some did. Of course. But, there’s a Rosenwald School up there, which is a preparatory school for the college. And many…most of them went there. Of course some of the kids from downtown went up there because, for some parents, they felt as though the kids there might get even a better education. So, it would depend. It really would depend. And, of course, something I’m sure, depended upon parents and how they worked. For example, if parents were working…had to work late…they had facilities and things at Rosenwald to kind of baby-sit…to keep the kids later and things of that sort. But, those were the options. Either Mayo Underwood or Rosenwald.

HAY: And were both of them…were both of them public schools? I know that Rosenwald…there was a lot…there were a lot of the Rosenwald schools around the state.

METCALF: Uh hmm.

HAY: But they were all…they were just all part of public education.

METCALF: I believe…I’m sure…I would imagine with Kentucky State being a [..] college, ok, that they were…that was really a school, I believe, that was basically set up to prepare the young teachers that were coming out of Kentucky State, and was giving them a chance to, of course, do their student teaching and that type of a thing. And of course, naturally, they also had real good teachers there that would prepare them, and work with them, and things of that sort. But, that was, I think, the reason for that.

HAY: But, Mayo Underwood was the bigger school? Were they the bigger school?

METCALF: Yeah, Mayo Underwood, I would say, that probably…I’m thinking Mayo Underwood was probably twice as big. Mayo Underwood at that time…Mayo Underwood went from the kindergarten to twelfth grade. Where Rosenwald…I don’t think Rosenwald ever went above the eighth grade.

HAY: And what about the teachers at Mayo Underwood? What were they like?

METCALF: Fantastic! Fantastic teachers. Of course, at that time, sometimes we thought that some of them were mean and difficult, but preparing us…the thing about them was that…Well, we knew from our parents that we were to respect them, and that they were like our parents, but even the teachers themselves, they really had our interests at heart. It was vitally important to them that we would learn things such as manners, and our work, and that type of thing. They worked closely, of course, very, very closely with our parents. You know, we hear now about some of these kids as they argue with and fight with teachers and things of that sort…very little of that would go on because we knew that our parents really supported the teachers, and if the teacher decided that there was a reason to whip you, or to punish you, we knew our parents were going to stand behind them.

HAY: Interesting. So then for high school, I understand you were the first…your freshman year in high school you went to Frankfort High.

METCALF: Frankfort High. Exactly.

HAY: So how was…tell…tell me about that. You were telling me earlier, but tell me again about…

METCALF: Well, our freshman class which was the Class of 1961. I graduated the Class of 1961, which I believe, I guess we started at Frankfort High in 1957. And it was the very first freshman class of forced integration. There were two or three classes before our class where the kids had a choice as to where they went to school. Whether they’d go, you know, [..] kids and black kids, whether they would go to Mayo Underwood or Frankfort High. But, when we became…when we finished eight grade, there was no choice of going to the ninth grade at Mayo Underwood. It had to be, you know, Frankfort High or somewhere else. Many of the kids left and went to Lincoln Institute. You know, I’m sure, some of them went to school in Louisville and things of that sort. But, basically we all funneled to Frankfort High.

HAY: And what was that like? Going to Frankfort High as compared to Mayo Underwood?

METCALF: You know, it’s…uh…I’m sure that there was some anxieties and things for some of us. But, most of us, we probably saw opportunity because by the time…uh…several years before Frankfort High, they began to start integrating such things as athletics at Mayo Underwood because, you know, as they started letting kids go to Frankfort High and other places, there was more and more shortage of kids to compete, and so, you know, we start…we didn’t have a football team there. It was years before I got to high school that they had a football team at Mayo Underwood, but even their basketball and the like was pretty much ended. So going to Frankfort High, for many of us, you know, seemed to be an opportunity because they had all those types of things. Sports and all. I’m sure the girls…I don’t remember a lot about volleyball and some of the other things, but particularly the major sports and all were there. Also, I guess, it was looked as an opportunity to be able to compete with some of the kids that we saw write-ups and things about, you know, in the newspapers and all. Where we wouldn’t get in to some of them. And so we thought, you know, opportunities to compete. And we also knew, naturally, with Martin Luther King and all those things going on that the world was changing. We were needing to…via our parents getting us prepared…that we were needing to be ready to adapt and to move into a new situation. While, certainly, we had our arguments and a few little fights and things of that sort, it really wasn’t that much of it as I can remember. Our world was expanding.

HAY: What did you…how were the teachers at Frankfort High compared to the teachers at Mayo Underwood?

METCALF: Awfully good teachers at Frankfort High, but naturally, it did take some adjustment. It took, certainly, us, in many cases, to really feel as though that they really cared like the teachers at Mayo Underwood. Our exposures to whites, certainly we had exposures to whites even before we went there, but the kind of intense support…and uh…working with, you know, we hadn’t had that…we hadn’t had quite that. But, as I can remember, there were excellent teachers both places. We didn’t realize it until later on that our poor teachers at Mayo Underwood, wanting so much to make sure that we had the very best, they gave up their jobs. Were never even arguing. Never arguing or anything else. Just went out…many times they went out and, you know, worked as maids and things of that sort. Just to make sure that we got a chance to go to these other schools. There wasn’t a lot of hurrah about it, or talk about them loosing their jobs and all. Really, to be honest with you, I guess it was ten to twenty years later sometimes that we found out that boy, our teachers really didn’t get…they were really the ones that really hurt because of it. I can remember a teacher such as Mrs. Samuels was the principal at Mayo Underwood with all kinds of degrees and all. I believe she may have been the only one that got a job, initially, at Frankfort High, and I’m thinking that her’s was an assistant to the principal, or a librarian or something like that. So many of them…Mr. And Mrs. Handly. Mrs. Handly still lives around here…still lives here, and her husband was really…he was really influential in getting the boys from Mayo Underwood…getting them over there to the football program. He was a heck of a football player, himself, at Kentucky State, and came on to Mayo Underwood to coach and direct athletics. And he, working with Ollie Leathers over there at Frankfort High, and Mr. Bickers, got many of our boys into playing sports over there. In fact, he helped to do some coaching. But as I found out later on that he and his wife had to go to Chicago later to find employment. So, you know, as we got older, of course, naturally, we were, I guess, you know, selfish because we never thought about, many times, about what all happened to our teachers. But later on, I think, we began to find out that really, while things changed for us, it was really difficult for the people that had worked with us, and taught us, and brought us all the way up, you know, into being able to go to Frankfort High and trying to compete, whether it be in the classroom or on the ball field.

HAY: You’re right. That’s sort of an interesting…sort of unseen side-story of where those teachers went, and what kind of opportunities they had.

METCALF: Uh hmm

HAY: And interesting that you felt that they really wanted you all to move on into new opportunities.

METCALF: Yeah. And, no doubt, as easily as they could. As easily, you know, to make it just as hassle free as they possibly could. And, like I said, many years later where some of us would be able to say, “Gee, thank you. We never really understood that was what was happening.”

0: 3:00 -0: 4:00HAY: Well, one of the things you mentioned earlier was the sense of…all the mother…you said something about, “We had mothers all over the community…” or something.

METCALF: Oh, my goodness! Yeah.

HAY: What did you mean by that?

METCALF: I guess Hilary Clinton has been given the…authorship of saying “It takes a village…”

HAY: Yeah

METCALF: “…to raise a child.” Certainly, our parents back then…and I’m not saying only our parents…the white parents too…knew then that it took a village, and that we had to respect that. We had to respect all older people. All adults. And all the adults felt as though that they, in ways, were a part of your parenting. Certainly, if someone…our mother’s would instruct us, and instruct other adults, that if they saw us doing anything, they were to act with us just as the parents themselves would have done. And so we really learned. And they did. They really would watch us as we were in the community and various things, whether we would be cursing or anything like that, to guide us and to make sure our parents knew when we acted up and that type of a thing. While going through those times, we probably didn’t appreciate it. Later on, we really appreciated it because we felt as though so many people were a part of us succeeding. And so many people wanted us to succeed. So many people had a hand in it. We certainly were thankful for that. We particularly see that now when it’s changed so much. We hear so much about now these teachers have to…they’re not allowed to strike a kid. They’re not allowed to argue with a kid. They’re not allowed to, you know, the parents don’t support many of the teachers and all. And we can really see where in our upbringing…that we had more than just our parents to look up to. To respect and to guide us.

HAY: Tell me about how old you think you were when you first came to The Grand Theatre.

METCALF: I would probably say…probably four or five, I would say. Certainly, I can remember that those ages, probably, I was being brought by my parents or some other adult. And I have a much more of a vivid imagination of it as I was nearing my teenage years because being able to walk over by myself or with a buddy or so. But, I’m sure as early as four or five.

HAY: Do you remember what you saw when you came here?

METCALF: All kind of different ones. I guess the ones that really stand out: the cowboy movies and things like that. And as I was telling you earlier, I can remember there being a serial. Some type of a serial, something like maybe the soap operas that are on now where there was a continuation. It seems like we would come over either on Tuesday or Wednesday, and this particular serial would be playing. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but that was a really fun time because you’d have to try to keep up with what all went on last week so you’d carry it on through the week in which you were watching it. I remember, certainly, The Grand having…not many times, but I can remember them having actors and like down on stage. The one I particularly remember is Tom Mix. The cowboy, Tom Mix, or…I’m trying to think of the other guy’s name…just earlier I was able to say that…Lane. Allan Lane. The cowboys. And they would perform on the stage, you know, some with their two guns, and their chaps, and their big hats and all. I can vividly remember one of them…one time there was a shootout supposedly with the gangsters or something like that. There were one or two other actors on stage and they would shoot their guns, and how it scared me to hear that. How loud and all that was. I’m sure after that we went out and really played cowboys. [Laughter]

HAY: You took it home. You took it home and you then…

METCALF: Oh, I’m sure. You know I grew up in an era when…I was born in ’44 and we really didn’t have much television until I was around the ages of nine or ten. So a lot of our heroes and all were in comic books and things of that sort, and our coming to the theatre and seeing the movies and all. The cowboys…as I said…the cowboys was sort of like the astronauts of the day. They were really the heroes. And, we would know just by the color of the horse that they would ride, or the way in which they would sing their songs to their girls or whatever. You would know how important…the bad guys would always be doing such things as chewing tobacco and that type of a thing. In fact, I can remember so much when we would see…a lot of times, of course, we would have…the cowboys would be fighting against the Indians, or against the Mexicans, or whatever. And we would want to know what a Mexican was, and now it’s so great now to be able to see the Spanish influence coming in. And we would be able to see that they are exactly like we are, you know, exactly like we are. And they…not all of them wore sombreros or whatever, but…you know…and not all the Indians were necessarily so bad…people…this, that, and the other. But, the theatre was…The Grand Theatre was really a big part of our growing up.

HAY: So what was it like during your teenage years when you would come to The Grand Theatre, and obviously, you would sit in the balcony for those earlier years, right?

METCALF: Exactly.

HAY: Because of segregation, right?

METCALF: Exactly. Exactly.

HAY: So first of all, who would be here and what would you all…what would it be like?

METCALF: Well, I’m sure initially…initially we didn’t know anything about there being…we knew there was a balcony, and I guess we could remember people…see people sitting down below us, but I don’t think we gave it a lot of thought, initially. But, we would, certainly…coming to The Grand Theatre, I can remember Mrs. Wilson and again I think you had told me…I couldn’t remember her first name. Dorothy…was it Dorothy?

HAY: Roberta.

METCALF: Roberta Wilson…

HAY: Roberta Wilson, yeah.

METCALF: Right…being here. And, of course, she was the…she was over…if not ticket sales, maybe ticket collections. But, particularly on the concession stands and the like. She was always a very, very well dressed lady. She was tall, and always had jewelry and things on. And she was really a…she was really a person that would make you mind. She would be in and out…in and out of that theatre, back and forth…out here in the concession area and back in there, and making sure that we weren’t things such as cutting up, fighting, throwing things, that type of a thing. But, the theatre was a place where…it was kind of an organized form of fun for us. We didn’t have a lot of other things that were organized and elegant, and it was always, of course, a place that was elegant with carpet and things of that sort. And while sometimes, we would ourselves even cut holes and things like that in the seats and all, they were really…it was really a nice place and we always felt as though that we were really somebody when we came to The Grand.

HAY: That’s really nice. That’s really nice.

METCALF: Uh hum.

HAY: So you would see your friends? You would see your family? You would see your neighbors?

METCALF: Oh, goodness, yes! I’m sorry, yes, you asked me that. Naturally, of course, we would see our schoolmates. Particularly those that maybe didn’t live on the south side with us, but maybe we went to school with here on the north side, or some of the kids from East Main. The ones we would call “Hill-toppers” and all. They would all, of course, be here. It really was a gathering place, and a place to eat the great, hot popcorn, and all those types of things.

0: 5:00 -0: 6:00HAY: So when you would come up those stairs, it would look a little smaller than you remember.

METCALF: Right. Our eyes would be really big and we would be almost running to get in there and to see the images on that big screen inside. In those days, a movies maybe cost fifteen cents, maybe a quarter, I don’t know. Popcorn, maybe a dime or so. But, I can remember that the…particularly the Bun candies, the round Bun candy…chocolate candy with some nuts in it, and the Jujy Fruits that you still see out there today. They were a little more expensive. They may have been thirty-five cents, or whatever, and whenever we were able to get that kind of money, we really thought we were on top of the world. [Chuckle] The case…the concession stand…the case would be all lit up, and it was a big deal for us.

HAY: That’s great. And you think Miss Wilson would be up here when you arrived? Would you see her when you…

METCALF: No doubt. She would be generally standing there looking down at us, and be watching us coming up, and make sure that we’d “Sshhh!” and being quiet and not, you know, running over top of each other and all. And letting us know that we were being supervised. We weren’t going to be up here just acting as heathens, or whatever. But, I can remember her vividly, you know, here. And, of course, when we’d see her on the street, you know, we’d remember, “That’s that theatre lady, and we can’t let her seeing us doing anything wrong, because she may be up to us when we get over to the theatre next time.” She was great.

HAY: That’s interesting. When you saw her out of context, you still sort of straightened up and…

METCALF: Right. I guess, I’m sure that we viewed her much like we did our teachers at school, because there they were in charge, and here she was in charge. And we knew it, and so she certainly had that kind of respect from us.

HAY: You talked about this place being sort of an organized activity for you…for you all to go to. Were there any other places that you gathered?

METCALF: Well, certainly, things such as…at that time there would be basketball teams and things of that sort. The schools were there. Of course, we were kind of used to going there. Going to school there, and so when we’d go to a night game or something there, it was…yeah, it was certainly organized and all that, but it was…we would be used to that. This was kind of a special activity. A little different, you know, one of those kind of things maybe that we would kind of look at ourselves as some folks do now…they talk about the Red Carpet and all. [Chuckle] So it was really special.

HAY: And how often would you come?

METCALF: Probably…probably, once…once or twice a week, maybe. So that’s something else that would make it so special because it wasn’t just right next door to us. We would have to come all the way across the bridge and all. I’m sure there were some weeks when we were in here two or three times, but generally speaking we would come to the movies, generally, on a Saturday. And during the summer, as I said, it was that serial running. And it seems to me that that serial that they would run in here was free, and we could come in here…Tuesday or Wednesday probably…I guess that day when the theatre would be a slow day generally. We would get into the theatre twice a week. [..]

HAY: So you mentioned something…that it was free to come in? Was it a free…?

METCALF: Yeah, it seems like to me that that particular thing…that particular time that it was either much cheaper or free. And I’m thinking it was a free…that Tuesdays or Wednesdays were free, and that’s what they would have. I liked to find out myself what the name of the serial and all was because I…it was normal…it would seem like to me, we would be in and out, chasing that serial for the entire summer while we were out of school.

HAY: I wonder if they’ve preserved any of those serials on DVD or have them…you know…because they weren’t like the big release movies, but you’d probably have a really…

METCALF: No, they were not, and I can remember also, you know, one of the things too that generally before the movies would start, they would have a big deal on the talking…bring us up on the news and things about the world and all. And that was always interesting because they would talk to us…tell us about…if there was a war or something going on, something like that going on in the world, and you would sit and watch that. And of course, as they began the previews, and getting you ready, you would really start getting hyped up because, Boy! It was about ready to start. It was about ready to get into something that we didn’t see everyday. And, Boy! the smell of the popcorn and all…it was great. It was much like, I guess, as I feel the football games and things that I go to now. It was just really hyped up.

HAY: It was kind of difficult.

METCLAF: Yes.

HAY: Would you come with a date sometimes? Would you come with a friend? With groups of friends? And also, would the different generations come as well?

0: 7:00 …-0: 8:00METCALF: Well, yeah. Certainly dates and things of that sort. Of course, about the time that I believe The Grand…The Grand began to…that integration came, and the like, when you’d go to The Capitol and all, and I was probably more and more into that age in which maybe thinking about dating and things of that sort, but certainly you would. Certainly you would come with, you know, with younger…it wasn’t the girls so much. It was your buddies. They were going to be the ones you would have to compete with, and challenge them as to how much that you had seen here, and the various shows that you had seen that hopefully they hadn’t seen that you could tell them something about and things of that sort. All those types of things. And certainly, I’m sure there were many times when even the school would bring us to various things that were happening here. Whether it would be a particular movie or a particular training film, or something like that.

HAY: And what about The Capitol? How old were you when you first went to The Capitol do you think?

METCALF: I would guess…I would say maybe…probably fifteen or sixteen. Sixteen or seventeen. Something like that. Uh huh. I would think that…again I was born in ’44 and I guess that…you know what? I guess I must have been older because I think that…I believe that march on Frankfort was like in 1963 or 1964, so I must have been twenty…close to twenty at that time. So maybe I was that old. Maybe I was that old. Maybe not in my teens when I was given the opportunity to go down there.

HAY: And when that changed, you could sit wherever you wanted at The Capitol? Is that right?

METCALF: As I remember, yes. I never remember being…I don’t know whether we…I think we probably really wanted to go there when we couldn’t go there because it was a “no no”, but after they opened, I don’t think we…I think we…when we had a choice…we probably still came here, you know. I don’t remember. Though I do know they closed The Grand…actually closed while The Capitol was still running. And of course, you couldn’t go to The Grand, but I can’t remember really going to The Capitol very, very many times. Though, you know, I did, but some of those times were after, you know, into my twenties.

HAY: What do you remember about the march on Frankfort?

METCALF: It was a BIG day. The biggest day I can remember any one thing happening in Frankfort, because a lot of the people that we heard so much about and all were here. The Julian Barnes and Martin Luther King. And then so many others that came. Maybe Rabbis, and priests, and things of that sort that came in to kind of lead that march and go along with us. I can remember Peter, Paul & Mary singing at The Capitol steps on that day. It was really a big thing, and it was something that went on…of course, there was preparation for it for a long time. And, I don’t know whether we ever believed that we’d be seeing something like that happening here in Frankfort, but it was very, very…as I can remember it…extremely peaceful. It was really a chance to really rub elbows with folks that you normally wouldn’t get a chance to. And maybe, you know, being able to do such things as having a crowd of us being able to walk down the middle of the street and feeling that, “Hey!” You know…that things were going to be different, you know, even though we…I don’t’ know…I’d say felt ourselves that things weren’t so terribly bad. I can remember those things, and I can, of course, remember hearing about it more so than maybe participating. But the kids at the school beginning to picket and things, and to sit in…some of the sit-ins and things that were allowed here. Although, being not nearly as bad as some places. In fact, I guess the worst of all that I can remember happening was when they began to riot and do some things at the college, and they ended up burning down the field house. That was really a…you know…did different things.

HAY: When did that happen?

METCALF: I’m thinking…I believe it was nineteen…seems like to me 1960, I believe. 1960. Somewhere between 1960 and 1962.

HAY: Now the march…the march on Frankfort was 1963.

METCALF: 1963, yes.

HAY: So you would have been nineteen years old or so.

METCALF: Uh hum.

HAY: Finished with high school.

METCALF: Yeah. As I can remember that. Yeah. Uh huh. For some reason though, it seems to me…and I finished school when I was seventeen. But, I can’t remember my being in college at the time, but maybe I was at Kentucky State at the time.

HAY: So the field house…the burning of the field house was a few years before that.

METCALF: A few years before, yeah. Because some of the things that led up to some of the things and all. There was determination to try to change things and the burning of the field house, and I think a lot of the riots and things happened around in the areas, not necessarily Frankfort, but just grew out of the frustration of things not moving as fast as some would like to see them move.

HAY: So after high school then, you…hang on. Let me pause for a second here. We just took a pause there, and we were talking about that time that you were…you graduated from high school when you were seventeen? So is that when you went to Kentucky State? Did you go straight?

METCALF: Uh hum. Straight on. Yeah. Right.

HAY: And then what did you study at Kentucky State?

0: 9:00 …-0: 10:00METCALF: Social Sciences is what my degree was in. I think initially I started out as Physical Education, but I changed majors, and so I finished up in Social Science.

HAY: So that would have been nineteen six…what year did you graduate from high school?

METCALF: 1966…Uh…’61!

HAY: ’61, ok.

METCALF: From high school, yes.

HAY: So you remember vividly, of course, the story of the field house, and the tensions that were going on in that…

METCALF: Right. I, of course, was in…at that time, I was, of course, was in high school when that happened, but I can, yes, vividly…some of the things.

HAY: And it was just a time when everything was really…the pressures for change were strong.

METCALF: Were strong, yes. Uh huh.

HAY: So I bet it was an interesting time to be at Kentucky State too.

METCALF: Yeah. After…yeah. Again, when the field house was done, I wasn’t at Kentucky State, but at the time that I was there, yes, it was a very interesting time to be at Kentucky State.

HAY: What was it like? What was it like there?

0: 11:00 …-0: 12:00METCALF: I think as much as the interest of the average kid going to college…of course, you know I was going to my hometown…but it was a chance to intermingle with people from all around the U.S. At that time, there was no restrictions on just being, you know, basically Kentucky students. And so we had a lot of kids from California and New York and the like. Really a chance to exchange and to get to hear about all the other cultures, and how little, and not a big deal, Frankfort was because, you know, the kids would come from these Detroit’s and L.A.’s and New York’s and all. They were…you know…Frankfort was so small and wasn’t much. Later, as you branched out and you moved to some of those places, you found out that those same kids, they weren’t doing very much in those other places either because they were afraid sometimes to even go outside. And so, we were…you know…even knew more…even knew better that we were very, very lucky to grow up in a place like Frankfort, Kentucky. But certainly, many influences came or was coming from around the country.

HAY: Yeah. So when you graduated, did you move away right away for a job, or…?

METCALF: No, I was here. I graduated in ’66 and I went on down to Western. I worked with the state of Kentucky, and they sent me to Western. I got into counseling…employment counseling and the like. The state sent me to Western to work on it; to get my Masters. I didn’t leave until 1970, I think it was. I believe it was 1970 that I moved and went to Detroit, and later to Cleveland and some of those places. I was around here, you know, several years after I finished school.

HAY: So you went…you went to bigger cities around the U.S., and how long were you away from Frankfort?

METCALF: I was away from Frankfort from ’70-’71 until…actually until ’94, I guess it was. ’93…’94. I was back…came back into Kentucky in, I think it was 1982, I think. ’82 or ’83. But, you know, jobs and the like took me into other areas. I was in Eastern Kentucky, you know, South Central Kentucky, you know, after coming back.

HAY: Did you always yearn to come back to Frankfort?

METCALF: You know, I think I really did. I really did. I guess I really always sort of liked the south. And I really found that out as I got into some of the northern areas that were a lot colder, both climate-wise, but also, I think, in personal relationships and the like. I find that the south is a lot more honest, and you know, with that, you can deal with that a little bit more than, you know, places and people that are not quite as…

HAY: That’s very interesting.

METCALF: But, I wouldn’t trade, I don’t think, any of it.

HAY: Yeah. Great experience to have been out in the world. Now tell me about your family. You’ve married. Have a couple…have kids.

METCALF: I’ve got two kids. I’m divorced. I’ve been divorced longer than when I was married. I was married about nineteen years, and we’ve been divorced since 1984, I think. But, I’ve got two boys; two knuckleheads. One just turned forty-five, and the other one is thirty-three…will turn thirty-four in January. One grandson. And, of course, a host of family around here, and I guess that’s one of the things that’s been so attractive to come back. I’ve got, you know, nephews and nieces and cousins and all here, and you know, all of which I’m…we’ve got a great family.

HAY: Are your sons here then? And your grandson?

METCALF: No. Well, one son is here. His name is Duan. Duan Metcalf. He works with the state. Economic Development. And he is the oldest one. And then the youngest one lives in Phoenix, Arizona.

HAY: Where’s your grandchild?

METCALF: The grandson is, of course, Phoenix.

HAY: Ok. Do you go out and visit sometimes or do they come here?

METCALF: Yes. I haven’t been out there…it’s been almost two years now. I’m a big L.A. Dodger fan, and the Dodgers have a training facility out there. And so I’ve gone out there to spring training there, and I’m planning on going back out there this…in February or March again for their spring training; to visit that son that’s out there.

HAY: And then, we all know your nephew Derrick Graham.

METCALF: Derrick Graham. Right. I’m really proud of him.

HAY: And his role here. A significant role here in the community here.

METCALF: Right. I’m really, really, really proud of him. I think Derrick picked up the mantle that my mom wanted me to pick up. [Chuckle] But he really is a…really a community man. Really service oriented. And Derrick is just full of energy. He’s much like…of course, my sisters…his mom and my mom…they really, really service oriented. And my oldest sister too. Barbara Beatrice…we called her BB. She was just so full of wanting to do for everybody else. She would put herself way back in the back. And Derrick is like that. He’s just as…I really just cannot believe, you know, with him…how…well his teaching actually. But also his work with the House of Congress here in Frankfort. It’s just really such a part of him. And he just really loves it; never tires of it. And the calls and all. And the pressures and things that the people put on him, he just seems to glow with that. I really salute him like I say. I didn’t have that in me. But, you know, he does.

HAY: Well, he probably always looked up to you though as his uncle. He went out and…into the rest of the country, and he watched some of what you did too. I’m sure it made a difference to him.

METCALF: Well, I’ll tell you…but, you know, he and his sisters…and his sister Tonya and, of course, her kids. This is Lindsey. She worked here with the city government, I think, for a little while. And her two brothers. They are…one’s an architect and the other’s a lawyer. They just really are…I’m just so very, very proud of them. And then, of course, Derrick’s oldest daughter is down in Western now in school where I went and did my graduate work. And the youngest one is at Frankfort High. Both Derrick and my oldest nephew, Greg, they married great girls, and they are doing so well.

HAY: Did I read somewhere that Derrick is one…maybe of the only, or maybe one of a couple of African Americans who are in the state legislature from a district that is majority white? Is that…I believe he’s one of the…very few.

METCALF: I would…probably so. Probably so. Because I think there are two of them in the House that I believe that are [..] in larger areas, one in Lexington and one in Louisville. But, I think, probably more of their base is in more black communities and the like.

HAY: Yeah.

METCALF: And so, I’m sure that’s the case.

HAY: Well, we’re lucky to have him, and Frankfort is such an interesting dynamic, you know. Frankfort is different than other small Kentucky towns, isn’t it?

0: 13:00 …-0: 14:00METCALF: I think it really is. Frankfort…of course, I think Kentucky is great. I think it’s like we have from one end to the other. We have just everything, I think. You say the dynamics really are different, and yet you take Frankfort for example. And while it is small, it is so close to nice metropolitan…other metropolitan areas, and the influences of things such as this, such as The Grand Theatre. Coming back to The Grand. The art and the like that’s in the area and the like, it’s so great. Out here so many times folks will say, “What do you got there to do?” Well, you know, really I found that I’ve been back after I retired in ’06, 2006, and I really found that what I want to do is here, if all I’ve got to do is search for it, and I’ll find it. Whether it be here in Frankfort, or going up to Lexington, and of course, Cincinnati is so very close. Indianapolis is close. Louisville certainly. Gosh, and you’re real close to the Interstate. They can get off to Cleveland, Detroit and those types of areas and all. Down to Atlanta. I think it really is an interesting and lovely place to live. And certainly a great one to retire in, I think.

HAY: That’s true.

METCALF: Especially if you don’t have much money, it’s a great one. [Laughter]

HAY: Yeah, you’re right. We can get to anything from here, can’t we? Do you like to go to…do you still go to movies? Do you go to concerts? Do you…what do you like to do?

METCALF: Yeah. Yeah. I’m a sports nut, so I…you know, football and basketball games, things of that sort. Baseball. But, occasionally I do. I did miss the Temptation show here a few weeks ago. But, the only reason is because I had just seen them perform over at Elk Creek, I think it is, a few months ago. I’m going down…have already got a ticket to go to the Norton Center the end of this month to catch an Al Green performance. I go over to the library over in Lexington the second Thursday of each month. They have a jazz thing that goes on over there that’s very nice. So, I hear people talk about being bored, and I really don’t quite know what boredom is. I really don’t.

HAY: I’m like that. [Camera pans in closer] I’m like you. [Chuckle] Well, I remember seeing you here on Opening Night, for The Grand Theatre, when The Platters and The Coasters. Opening Night for the renovated Grand Theatre. What did that feel like for you? Coming back here?

METCALF: Oh Gosh! Boy, just to come back here into The Grand. And, of course, I had been here once or twice while they were working on trying to bring The Grand back and some things. Some promotional things. But, to really see it coming to it’s fruition was just fantastic. And, of course, both groups were just great, and of course, the house was sold out. I really couldn’t believe it because it was just so nice. And the way in which I think that you all have gone about making it an attraction is so great. I told you earlier how impressed I was in seeing the old holes in the walls and all which was really…I thought it was a nice gesture; a nice taste of the old times. But, it’s really nice, and I really enjoyed myself that night. And it’s a shame because I knew I’d be back all the time and I haven’t gotten back yet. But, certainly I will.

HAY: You’ve come for some other stuff. I know you will. I’m just going to switch tapes. I’ve got a couple more questions, but this…

1: 15:00 …-0: 16:00END OF TAPE 1