2007OH02.34b
Interview with Teresa Graham, May 18, 2010
BEGINNING OF TAPE 2
HAY: Alright. This is tape number two on May the 18th, 2010 at the home of Miss
Katherine Graham, with Joanna Hay doing part of the interview and Sheila Mason Burton doing part of the interview, with Teresa Graham also sitting with us. So go ahead Sheila.BURTON: Miss Katherine, I want to ask you about what you all did for fun. Dances
and entertainment. Was there live music? Now, this is…well, when you were a teenager and also when you and Mr. Graham were a married couple with kids.KATHERINE: Well, mine didn’t start until I was married, and that’s when we used
to go to the dances and things down at the Stagg Distillery. And then, we’d go to Lexington to dances a lot of times. We had friends up there in Lexington and that’s where we’d have good times going up there. But, after you get kids, you know, you don’t go like you used to, so we didn’t go like we used to when we were younger.BURTON: What I remember as a kid though, my parents getting excited about…all of
you all were going on a boat. What was this?KATHERINE: Not me! I never got on a boat. I am scared to death of the water so I
never got on the boat. Never learned how to swim. Don’t get nowhere near the water. When I take my bath, that’s all over with me and the water. [Laughter]BURTON: Well, I’m glad I asked the question just for that story. [Laughter]
KATHERINE: Don’t go nowhere near the water. We went out to Juniper Hill one day.
I took the kids out to Juniper Hill. They’d die to go to Juniper Hill. I said, “Ok. I’m going to take you all today.” They kept worrying me. Kept worrying me. So I took them out to Juniper Hill. Well, I’m sitting out there and I keep hearing this whistle. Well, I kept hearing the whistle. I didn’t know what the whistle was for, and I sat there. I didn’t worry about it. So, finally this lady was sitting down from me and I said, “Can I ask you something?” And she said, “Yeah.” I said, “I want to know why do every now and then…about every hour or so, they blow that whistle?” And she said, “Honey, did you notice that they all get out of the water?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “Well, they do that because they are trying to see if anybody’s laying on the bottom…drowned.” “RESA! TOM! PAULA! LET’S GO! LET’S GO RIGHT NOW!” And they said, “Mama, what’s…?” “LET’S GO!” Girl, that was the day…and Jimmy said, “You don’t want to make the kids scared of the water because you’re scared of the water.” But that day, I was out there hollering. I was embarrassed. “LET’S GO!” Sheila, I tell you…if you’re scared of something, you’re just scared of something. If ever I saw somebody drown, I don’t know. I would have a fit. I would just pass out. I’d probably jump in the water I’d be so scared.BURTON: Miss Katherine, there’s a wonderful picture of you down at the
Historical Society with Tom sitting in back of [..] Graham’s barber chair. Tom looks like he may be two years old. Do you remember that picture? I don’t know where we got it.KATHERINE: No.
BURTON: But there’s a picture of you sitting there…this is down in the old Odds
Fella’s Building at The Bottom, and you remember Mr. Graham had a barber shop down there. And there’s a picture of you standing there with your young son…KATHERINE: Now, I remember John Davis cutting his hair, but I…
BURTON: It may be John Davis cutting his hair.
KATHERINE: I don’t remember…
BURTON: Because Mr. Davis was [..].
KATHERINE: Well see, another thing. I had a picture of Tom…I’ve got a picture of
Tom…What happened was, when we lived on Blanton Street, see we didn’t have a tub. A regular bathtub like what we’ve got now. Ok. I had this big, aluminum thing. Ok. So, I put the cleanest one in there first. I put the cleanest one in there first. And then, I’d heat some water on the stove and then I’d add a little more water when the second one got ready to get in there. And then the third one…the dirtiest one…got ready to get in there, I’d add a little more water and put that in there. I’m going to show you. You won’t believe this. Ok. This is the same tub. I can’t tell you how old that tub is. That’s Tom. He was the first one in there.HAY: I have to get it to focus. Hold on.
KATHERINE: Want me to take it out?
BURTON: He was the first one?
KATHERINE: He was the first one.
BURTON: So he was the cleanest?
KATEHRINE: He was the cleanest.
HAY: That’s a good picture.
BURTON: That is a good picture.
KATHERINE: And let me tell you what Teresa always said, they didn’t get to get
dirty. They didn’t get dirty. When you got dirty, you had to come in. You had to come in. [Chuckle] They wouldn’t play in the dirt. They wouldn’t get in the dirt.0:
1:00 …-0: 2:00BURTON: I’m amazed at how difficult housework and being a mother was then.KATHERINE: Then. Yeah. These kids don’t know nothing about this. They don’t know
nothing about this.BURTON: When you did your washing, did you have one of those old ring boards?
KATHERINE: Yeah. Hung the clothes out in the yard on the line. Yeah. But, that
tub. I’d have to fill that tub up, then I’d have to empty it, you know. Add a little more hot water.BURTON: And I’m looking at this old stroller.
KATHERINE: Uh huh. Uh huh.
BURTON: This stroller here in the background.
KATHERINE: Yeah.
HAY: Yeah, I got that. And is this…?
BURTON: This is Mr. Graham.
KATHERINE: Yeah.
HAY: Yeah. And Katherine?
BURTON: Uh huh. This is a good picture.
KATHERINE: Now, turn it and you’ll see a picture of Teresa and Paula Ann.
BURTON: Turn it this way?
KATHERINE: I don’t know. You see two little girls?
BURTON: Oh, yeah.
HAY: Oh, let’s get those.
BURTON: Is this Paula right here?
KATHERINE: Uh huh. And look at Teresa. That’s Teresa over there by her.
HAY: Ok, so on the right, who is this?
BURTON: That’s Teresa.
HAY: And who is this?
BURTON: That’s Paula.
HAY: And then, what about this picture?
BURTON: Who is this?
KATHERINE: Now, that’s me and Teresa and Paula Ann. That was when I was skinny.
BURTON: My goodness, look at this.
KATHERINE: That was when she was little.
HAY: So, describe who it is again.
BURTON: This is Miss Katherine Graham with her two daughters, Teresa and Paula.
HAY: So what year would that have been about? Gosh, you guys were about two and
three…three and four?BURTON: This would have been around 1951 or so. Paula looks like she’s about three.
TERESA: I was born in ’51.
BURTON: You were?
TERESA: Uh huh.
BURTON: You were older than [..]. This would have been maybe about ’53 or so.
HAY: And where are they standing?
KATHERINE: They’re standing in front of Katie Lee’s house.
BURTON: Katie Lee Jones?
KATHERINE: Uh huh.
BURTON: Where did she live?
KATHERINE: Right down the street from us on Washington Street.
BURTON: On Washington Street.
HAY: That’s great. Ok.
BURTON: And you know, Teresa, if you put a little hair up on your head, you look
just like [..].TERESA: That’s a scary thought. [Laughter]
KATHERINE: But I think that picture of Tom in that tub…because I tell him all
the time about putting that water in there. I say I just put a little more hot water in there and put everyone in one at a time. They don’t realize. These kids now a days don’t realize, you know, all the conveniences they have. They don’t realize that.HAY: And that picture really shows what you had to do just to keep yourselves
clean and fed, and everything was hard work. Now, of course, I’m very interested in the arts and theatre as you probably can tell. And you have a very famous relative named George Wolfe.KATHERINE: Uh huh.
HAY: And George is your nephew, is that correct?
KATHERINE: My nephew, uh huh.
HAY: Can you tell me about George and how life in Frankfort perhaps encouraged,
or maybe discouraged his…?KATHERINE: Yeah. George had a lot of help at the school. Miss…what was that lady
he was so crazy about that died?BURTON: Miss Shenaw?
KATHERINE: Miss Shenaw. Yeah.
BURTON: Miss John Shenaw.
KATHERINE: Yeah. Uh huh. He was crazy about her, and she was a lot of help to
him. Uh huh. Yeah. She was a lot of help to him. And let me see. I’m trying to think. He was always interested in…I told you, he was always interested in the theatre, you know. He was just in to that. And then, when he got the chance to leave Frankfort and go, he went on, you know. He went on. And, when George first got to New York, you know, he would stay at rich, white people’s houses and baby-sit the house. That’s the way he made his money. You know, when they’d go out of town. You know how people will break in your…he would stay. He’d make money staying in their houses and that’s how he started off. And then he finally got to the place where he worked his self up. I don’t know. I guess he met the right people at the right time, you know. We are real proud of him. Real proud. Him and Steve are just…I’m telling you…something else.BURTON: They’ve stuck together.
KATHERINE: Uh huh. They stuck together. Yeah. They sure did.
HAY: Who is Steve?
BURTON: My brother.
KATHERINE: Her brother.
HAY: Your brother. Steve Mason.
KATHERINE: Uh hum. They’re crazy about each other.
BURTON: Do you remember, Miss Katherine, those big productions…end of the year
productions that Mayo Underwood would put on? Big musicals? And Rosenwald would do the same thing, you know. And all the school would be involved. I remember one year, Paula was in it. They did South Pacific. Do you remember Miss Sanders? We talked about her earlier. How she made us learn that [..]. How she made us learn to…?KATHERINE: Uh huh. But, Sheila, a lot of that I have forgotten. I really have
forgotten a lot of that. Now, I’ll tell you who used to entertain: Jack Robb.BURTON: Ok. I was going to ask you about Jack today.
KATHERINE: Ok. He would have people to come to town and they would…now, I
believe…I thought at one time they said Lena Horne was at his house. I believe she was at his house at one time. He would have people there that nobody else in Frankfort would ever think of being in Frankfort, you know, and they would entertain. So, anyway, I remember that Mother told me…and see when my mother told me something, she didn’t ask you something. She told you something. And she told me…she said, “You’re going up to Jack Robb’s tonight.” And I said, “For what?” She said, “You’re going to sing that little song that you’ve been singing.” I don’t think I’ve ever told Resa this. She said, “You’re going to sing that little song.” And I said, “What little song?” She said, “He’s having company from out of town and I’ve already talked to him. All you’ve got to do is go up there and sing that little song.” So, she kept on talking about this little song. I didn’t even know what song it was. The name of the song…I know you all won’t remember this song. I know because it’s been too long ago. A-Tisket, A-Tasket, I Lost My Yellow Basket. Honey, I went up there! I never will forget it. I was scared to death. And Mother said, “And you’re going to sing that little song.” She didn’t ask me could I sing the little song? She told me, “You’re going to sing that little song.” So, I was scared to death, but I went up there, Honey, and I sang that little song. I don’t know. I said, “A-Tisket, A-Tasket…I lost…”BURTON: My green and yellow basket.
KATHERINE: Yes. Green and yellow basket. Sheila, I can’t believe that you
remember that song. [Chuckle] Anyway, I never will forget. So anyway, I sang that song, and then I remember when I got through singing, I saw him hand Mother some…he must have handed her some money, you know. I don’t know whether I was worth a dollar, or five dollars, or I don’t know how much she got. [Laughter] I don’t know. They all applauded, you know, and everything. They thought that was something cute. A little girl singing that. So, I don’t know how much he gave her because I didn’t see none of it, you know, but I remember doing that. And see, he would have all these entertainers to come to town, and people…you know…he’d have his company there. He’d invite other people from Frankfort. And I remember Jimmy, my husband, and Sis Marshall…they used to go around and dance for people. When they had these parties…when people had big parties at the house, they would dance.BURTON: So entertainment was in George’s blood. He got it from his [..]. [Chuckle]
KATHERINE: I never could carry a tune. I never could carry a tune.
HAY: Do you have other questions?
BURTON: Do you have anything you want to say to close this out?
KATHERINE: No, I’m just so glad you all came. And I’m so glad to meet you.
HAY: It’s a delight to have met you.
KATHERINE: And you’re working with a wonderful person. You couldn’t pick a
better mate. You couldn’t pick a better person.HAY: I know.
KATHERINE: Yeah. Just wonderful. You all make a good team.
TERESA: You should recite the little poem that you tell me every morning.
KATHERINE: Every morning I say this little poem for Teresa. She wants me to say
this. And then, when I say it to her, she gets mad because I keep saying it. I’m trying to teach it to her. I have to wait now. I might not get it right the first time.Somebody said it couldn’t be done
But he was a troubled reply
That maybe couldn’t
But he would be one
Who wouldn’t say so ‘til he tried.
So he buckled right in
With a bit of a grin
On his face.
If he weren’t, he hid it.
He started to sing
As he tackled a thing
That couldn’t be done.
And he did it!
KATHERINE: Sheila, you’ve heard that.
BURTON: I remember that!
KATHERINE: You remember that poem?
BURTON: Uh hum.
KATHERINE: I told Resa. I said, “Resa, that’s my favorite little poem.”
BURTON: Miss Samuels made you learn that. Years ago. Almost seventy years ago.
KATHERINE: And then when I was…when I went to college, this woman that was
teaching typing…you know, I love to type. That’s why I don’t know nothing about computers. I know all about typewriters though. Typewriters are going out of style. So anyway, listen, I remember this one day I was standing at her desk talking to her and I looked down and I saw this little paper she had under her glass on the desk and it said:I really think that God above
Created you for me to love.
And picked you out from all the rest
Because He knew I loved you best.
KATHERINE: I thought that was the most beautiful thing I have ever…and I came in
here and told Jimmy that one day, and, Honey, I thought he was going to faint. He said, “Where did you get that from? That was the most beautiful thing I’ve ever heard.” I’ve tried to teach her that one. She’s not very good at it. [Laughter] That was beautiful. I saw that.BURTON: You know, that’s one of the advantages, I think, we had at Mayo
Underwood because in the…Teresa went to Second Street, she said, in the sixth grade. And that was sixth, seventh, and eighth grades that they started making us appreciate poetry.KATHERINE: Yeah. Uh huh. Uh huh.
BURTON: So she missed out on that.
KATEHRINE: Uh huh.
BURTON: So that’s why I’m relating to this poem.
KATHERINE: To these poems. Yep. And she don’t know that. I used to know…oh, I
used to know more poems! But see, now I have forgotten them, you know. But every now and then! But that one…I woke up one morning…I had that poem up…and I went back in real quick to tell her while it was fresh on my mind. And she said, “Oh, Lord! Not the poem again.” [Laughter]HAY: Well, that’s wonderful. Alright, so if you don’t have anything…other
stories that you’d like to tell about The Grand and downtown Frankfort?KATHERINE: No. No other good stories.
HAY: Oh! She just let on that there might be some stories that she hasn’t told us.
BURTON: We’d better end this now. [Laughter]
HAY: Now that you tell us you got some more.
KATHERINE: No. No. No. I’m through. I think you all did a beautiful job.
BURTON: I think you did a beautiful job.
KATHERINE: No, I did the best I could. I did the best I could.
HAY: Well, you gave us some wonderful insights on what growing up in those days
was like for you. And hearing about your family and I really…I really appreciate it. So, what I thought we’d do is put the camera on hold, and then Teresa agreed that she would do an audio interview with a few questions. Obviously, she’s been an important part of this interview from the corner over there.KATHERINE: Have you got time before you go to work?
HAY: So, we’ll put it on pause. Thank you.
KATHERINE: She works at Foam Design.
[Camera pauses and comes back on to focus on Miss Teresa Graham, sitting in her
mother’s home in Frankfort, Kentucky.]0:
3:00 …-0: 4:00HAY: So let’s see. Teresa has very kindly agreed to an interview. And this is Teresa Graham. But then she wants the rest of it audio. Are you sure you don’t want me to keep it on?GRAHAM: I want it audio.
HAY: Ok.
KATHERINE: Resa, it might work better if they can see you.
GRAHAM: No. No. No.
KATHERINE: They can’t come back and get you. Most of [..].
[Camera moves to point toward the floor. Microphones continue to provide audio sound.]
HAY: [Chuckle] So, count to twenty for me Teresa so we can get the sound.
GRAHAM: One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven.
Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty.HAY: Perfect. Alright. Well, we’re continuing this interview. Same cast of
characters except Teresa now has the microphone attached to her. And the first question I have is would you mind repeating…telling that story again of the March on Frankfort with Dr. Martin Luther King, Junior came to town?0:
5:00 …-0: 6:00GRAHAM: Ok. I was a seventh grader at Second Street School. And, I had heard from my grandmother…and everybody…that Martin Luther King was coming to town and having a March on Frankfort. And, I idolized Martin Luther King. And so, there was no way that I was going to miss that march. So, I decided I was going to go to the march. Well, Mr. Ball at the school heard that people were…that we were talking about going to the March on Frankfort and he said, “I’ll tell you that if you go to the March on Frankfort, I will expel you from the school.” And I said, “I really didn’t care. I’m going to the March on Frankfort. I wouldn’t miss it for the world.” So, early that morning I go up to the Capitol, and here’s cars and tons and tons of people from all over town coming to the March on Frankfort. And so, I go to the front of the podium and work my way through the crowd because I’m small, and I get right to the front of the podium. And then, they announce Dr. Martin Luther King. And then, he walks out to the podium and he just stands there, and he holds his hand up over the crowd and everything, and everybody cheers. And then, he starts to speak. He probably had one of the most powerful voices and things that he would say than any other man I had ever listened to. And I was just overwhelmed with this. And, I noticed beside me, there were these men in black coats and everything, and they were bodyguards for Martin Luther King. And so, I turned to my friend and I said, “Well, this was definitely worth getting expelled from school for. Just to hear this man talk.” And, so the guard said, “What did you say?” And I said, “Well, the principal of our elementary school, he’s going to expel us from school tomorrow when we go back because we came to the March on Frankfort.” He said, “I want you to stay right here where you are, and when all this is over, we’re going to go talk to Dr. King.” I looked at him and I said, “Yeah. Right. We’re going talk to Dr. King.” So, everything. We listened to the speech. We listened to other people talk. We listened to people sing and everything. And then it was all over. Then, they walked me to the back of the stage and we were standing there for a while. And standing for a while. And, finally Dr. King walks back there. And he says, “Well, who are these little angels?” [Chuckle] And so, we kind of blushed a little bit and I told him what my name was. And so, the bodyguard told him…said, “These children are going to get expelled from school for coming to listen to your speech today. Now wasn’t that very noble of them?” And he said, “Where do you attend school?” And I said, “We go to Second Street School.” He said, “How far is that from here?” And, I said, “Not very far. Like two blocks down the street from the Capitol.” So he said, “Come on. I’m going to take you to school.” So, we walked with him…[Chuckle]…and we got in the back of this great big, black car (looked like an old Lincoln or something). We got in the back of the car and we ride back to the school. School is letting out then. Everything is over, and they are getting ready to get out of school. So, he says, “Where’s the principal’s office?” So we walk straight to the principal’s office, and the little secretary…she had her little glasses down on her face like this…and so, I came into the office and she looked up, she looked back down and she looked back up again. And, he said, “Could I please speak to the principal of the school. I here his name is Mr. Leo Ball.” And she said, “Just a minute.” She got on the big mic they had there at the desk. She said, “Mr. Leo Ball, please come to the principal’s office. Please come to the principal’s office right now.” [Chuckle] And so, we were standing there. So, Mr. Ball and his little short, round self comes bouncing in, and um…Dr. Martin Luther King put his hand out and he said, “Hello. My name is Dr. Martin Luther King.” And he said…he didn’t put his hand out…he said, “I know who you are.” And he said, “I hear these children are going to be…get expelled from school for coming to the March on Frankfort.” He said, “That’s exactly what I told them.” And Dr. King said, “Well, can I talk to you for a minute?” So they went back to the office. They closed the door. They were in there about ten/fifteen minutes. They came back out. Mr. Ball said, “I’ll see you in class tomorrow.” So, Dr. Martin Luther King gave me a big hug and everything. And I told him that I loved him. And then, he left. And this…you know…that’s something that has stayed with me all my life. It’s stayed with me all my life. A very powerful man. And, I’ll always remember when I was in high school in 1968 when he got assassinated. I had a teacher friend of mine that came to the class that I was in that day, and she said, “Teresa, I’ve got bad news.” And I said, “What?” And she said, “Come on. I want you to go with me.” Because she knew exactly how I felt about him. And so, I went to the auditorium at the high school and they had a TV turned on in there. And so she said, “Sit down. I want you to see something.” And then, I saw where he had been assassinated. And I cried and I cried. And, I couldn’t stop crying. I just couldn’t stop crying. I was overwhelmed. Overwhelmed. I just couldn’t believe it.0:
7:00 …-0: 8:00GRAHAM: But, when I went to the school in the seventh grade, to all the blacks it was just devastating. It was really devastating to make that change. We didn’t feel welcomed to the school, you know. They had the black teachers that went to the school. We had Miss Holmes, Miss Samuels, Miss Wilson…were the only teachers that I can remember that went to Second Street. And I remember that I was in the upper…when I went to Mayo Underwood, I was like a straight A student. And so they put me in the upper class when I went to Second Street School with the smart kids and all. And we were sitting in the class. And Miss Holmes was having this history class. So I go in the class…and I always loved Miss Holmes, you know. She was always a strong teacher. We called her “Big Cheese” because she could make everybody mind. And we were in her class and here comes these smart kids all in her class…real sediti-like kids. Kind of stuck up and all and acting kind of like whatever. And Miss Holmes didn’t seem like she was acting right. She was acting a little bit strange. And so, I knew about Miss Holmes. I knew she never acted that way. She was like sitting there at the desk, and like…she was going like this…and her eyes were rolling back in her head. Well, the kids…the white kids started laughing at her. And they went up there and put chewing gum in her hair. And stuck chewing gum in her hair. She had took her glasses off and she had put them back on and turned her glasses upside down. So I said, “Something is wrong with Miss Holmes.” So I go up there and asked, “Miss Holmes, are you alright?” And the white kids were laughing. They said, “She’s come to class drunk! We’ve got a drunk teacher.” I said, “She’s not a drunk. Miss Holmes never would drink. Never.” So I got scared and I ran to the office. And I went down there and found Miss Samuels. I said, “Miss Samuels, you’ve got to come to class. Something is wrong with Miss Holmes.” So she goes in there and she looks at Miss Holmes and all that, and so they called the hospital and everything. They took her to the hospital. She had a massive stroke. They said later they figured…all this change and everything on her, was a strain. It was a strain on her and she’d had a massive stroke. And then I think she had a heart attack or something after that. But, that was the end of Miss Holmes. You know. And it was tough. And in high school, it was even tougher. When I went into high school, particularly my senior year, in my senior year someone came to me and…a white friend of mine…said, “Teresa, I want to tell you something.” This was in my senior year. She was over the yearbook for that year. She said, “Well, Teresa, you know how we vote on different things in the yearbook? Best dance or best this or best that…?” She said, “I just wanted to tell you that you were voted the most athletic senior girl, but you know they couldn’t let that happen.” I said, “What do you mean they couldn’t let that happen?” She said, “Well, you know, the people on the committee and all that, they can’t allow you, you know, being black to be in the yearbook as a most athletic senior.” And she also told me, she said, “Bobby Reading was named the best dancer.” She said, “So, I’m telling you this because they took the ballots and they just tore them up, and then they sat and voted and made whoever they wanted to make it.” So this really upset me. This upset me. So, I went to Derrick Graham’s mother, Dolly, and I told her about what happened. I said, “Dolly, I’m so upset with things that are going on in our high school. We have to do something about it, if not for my class, for the classes that come behind me. It is about time that this school realizes that we are here. And we’re going to be here. And we need to be a part of this school.” So, Dolly helped me to write this letter. And we wrote this letter to all the teachers at Frankfort High School, and to the principal, telling them how we felt as blacks about how we were being treated. We didn’t want to just be an athlete. We wanted to be anything else we wanted to be. On the National Honor Society. We wanted to be on the newspaper. We wanted to be in any part of anything for the school. So, we typed all these letters up and put them in envelopes. I gave these letters to every teacher at the high school. Every teacher when they came into the class that day, they had this letter. Now I remember when I was in some classes, some teachers opened them up and they read them, they looked at them, they folded them up, and then they laid them back down. I remember one teacher in particular, Mr. Ollie Leathers, opened his up in his class and he read it, and he stood there and he tore it into a thousand pieces and threw it in the trashcan. And he said, “I’ll not have any of that nonsense in this school.” So then the principal read his letter. Ok. He decides…he comes to the conclusion that I’m the ringleader, and I’m the cause of all these problems going on in the high school. So, he brings me to the office. He said. “I know how to stop all of these problems right now. I’m going to take care of you.” So that afternoon we went out to lunch and I told everybody what happened. Well, we had a walkout. The blacks didn’t go back in the school after lunch. So the principal came out and said, “You all have five minutes to get back in this school or I’m going to expel every one of you.” We stood out there on the steps at school and we all talked about it. I said, “What are we going to do?” They said, “Well, let’s go back into the school, and then let’s go back and have a meeting at the church and let’s talk about it.” So we go back in the school. He comes and gets me out of the class and takes me back to the principal’s office. He said, “You’re going to stay after school every day until further notice until I decide what I’m going to do about you because you’re a trouble maker.” I said, “I’m not a trouble maker. I just want to be treated right. That’s all I want is to be treated right.” So after school everyday, the kids would get out of school, I’d go to the little study hall and stay after school. I had to stay until like four o’clock everyday. Everyday. And I’d get out of school and I’d walk home. Well, one day I came home from school and Daddy said, “Why are you late coming home from school every day?” I said, “Daddy, the principal thinks I’m the trouble maker at the school.” And I went on to explain what had happened and what was going on at the school. He said, “Why did he pick you out?” I said, “Because he said I’m the ringleader.” So, my daddy had never in my entire life had ever gone to school for anything concerning me, but that day he said, “I’m coming to your high school and I’m going to talk to this principal.” So, he goes into the school…and everybody…you know how people buzz up and down the hall? Everybody said, “Your daddy is down in the principal’s office.” I said, “He is.” They said, “Yeah, he went in the principal’s office.” So, I saw him go in and he talked to the principal. And so, he came out. He waved at me and he went on home. So, I was like…when I got home that night I said, “Daddy, what did you talk about?” Well, he had told Mother, he said, “I am so angry. You won’t believe what that principal told me in that office.” And Mama said, “What Jimmy? What did he tell you?” He said, “He told me I should be lucky that we even have any blacks in the school at all because where he came from, they didn’t even let blacks attend school.” And then Daddy said, “He went so far as to call me a name and tell me to get out of his office.” So I said, “Well, what did you do, Daddy?” He said, “I told him that I would be over there at three o’clock tomorrow and I will be picking my daughter up from school, and she will no longer be staying after school. And that I was going to the Board of Education and see if I can’t get him removed from that school.” So the next afternoon, I was in my last class. It wasn’t even three o’clock. I think it might have been twenty minutes to three. The principal knocked on my last class window and told me to come here. I said, “Uh oh. What’s wrong now?” He said, “I want you to go outside and sit on those steps and wait on your dad.” [Chuckle] So obviously he was a little afraid of my daddy. He said, “You go sit on the steps and wait on your daddy because I don’t want any trouble in this school.” So my daddy did. He went to the Board of Education and he told them about what had been going on. We also gave them a copy of the letter and told them. I brought the young lady that had approached me and told me what happened with the voting for the thing. She spoke to the school board and told them everything that happened and all. And they removed him as principal of the school that year. They removed him.KATHERINE: That’s when we started having meetings at the church.
GRAHAM: Yeah. We had meetings at the church.
BURTON: What church did you meet at?
GRAHAM: First Baptist. Now, the following year after my class of ’69…that’s why
I call that the changing of everything at Frankfort High School. The very next year, we had the first black on the National Honor Society. We had the first black…George became the editor of the newspaper. Everything changed after that year. After what happened with the class on ’69. And that’s what it was all about. It was all about helping the people that came behind me and that came behind my class. It was well worth it. I’d do it all over again.HAY: Was that your cousin George who you are referring to?
GRAHAM: It was my cousin George, right. Everything changed. I said, “Oh wow, we
have somebody on…” You know, because we had people like Clara Green that was straight A students and all, that was never on the National Honor Society and things like this. It just wouldn’t happen. But after that year, the next year I was so proud. I was so proud that now they were a part of the high school. Now they were part of the high school for real.HAY: That’s a wonderful story.
BURTON: That is a great story.
KATHERINE: You did a beautiful job.
GRAHAM: Thank you. You did a beautiful job too.
KATHERINE: My baby.
HAY: What was the name of the friend who was with you at the March?
GRAHAM: Don Marshall.
HAY: Wow!
GRAHAM: Romania’s son, Don Marshall. We called him Junior. Now, he doesn’t like
to be called Junior because he’s a professional. A professional. But, it was Don Marshall.BURTON: His sister, Donna, was in high school and I remember she was one of the
ones that defied the principal.GRAHAM: Yes, she was. Yes, she was.
HAY: There was another story you told earlier before we started the interview
with your mother about the time that you and your cousin George and your grandmother went to The Capitol Theatre. Can you retell that story?0:
9:00 …-0: 10:00GRAHAM: Yes, George loved the movies and everything. And the new movie that came out was the 101 Dalmatians. So George was really excited. He was just a little…a small child. Curly. Little curly, black hair. But, that’s all he wanted to do was go see the 101 Dalmatians. And so, Granny decided well, “If you want to go, I’m going to take you and you’re going to see that movie.” So, my grandmother had me get dressed, and I got ready. And George got dressed. And, we were skipping going up the street…St. Clair Street…to go to The Capitol Theatre. Well, we got to the window and all this. And the lady looked up and she looked at us, and looked straight across us just like this…and she said, “Can I help you?” And Granny said, “Yes, I would like to have three tickets to see the movie.” She said, “Ma’am, now you know I can’t sell you any tickets.” Granny said, “My child…my grandchild wants to see the 101 Dalmatians, and he wants to see them today.” She said, “I’ll have to get the manager, but you’re not getting in this theatre. You will have to wait until it comes to another movie if you want to see it.” So, George started to cry. He cried and he boo-hooed. And, it really hurt his feelings and everything. And, my grandmother was very upset, but we didn’t get to see the 101 Dalmations.HAY: How old were you and George when that happened?
GRAHAM: Oh, I’d say George probably was…maybe…seven or eight years old.
HAY: And then, what about you? How old were you?
GRAHAM: I think I might have been eleven or twelve.
HAY: So what year would that have been? About 1960…?
GRAHAM: It was way before they…
HAY: ’63? ’64?
GRAHAM: Sixty something. Yeah, right around in there.
HAY: Early sixties.
GRAHAM: Yeah. About sixty something. George just…he just didn’t understand. He
didn’t understand at all.HAY: What were your feelings when that happened?
GRAHAM: My feelings were hurt too, you know. I just couldn’t understand, because
we were raised in a church, and we were all created by God. The same God. And, I couldn’t understand why anybody would feel like that they were any better…any greater than I was. And, I just couldn’t understand it. I couldn’t understand that separation. I remember going to the train station. The train station in Frankfort had bathrooms that said, “Whites Only.” “Whites Only,” you know. I just couldn’t…it was just hard to fathom.0:
11:00 …-0: 12:00GRAHAM: But, like I said, when I played professional ball with an all-white team, and I went on that trip…this was in 1971…Civil Rights was already passed. This was in Chattanooga, Tennessee. And, the first place we stopped when we got into town was at Crystal’s Hamburger Place. And so, we were all sitting around. Big ball team sitting around waiting to get served and everything. And, they waited on everybody and went on past me, and whatever…and then, I said, “You didn’t take my order.” And, she said, “I didn’t take it. And I won’t take it. I can’t take it.” And so, you know, in Frankfort things had changed, you know. It wasn’t like that anymore. But in Chattanooga, they hadn’t made any changes it didn’t look like at all. And so, she wouldn’t serve me, so everybody else got up and said, “Well, if she can’t eat, none of us are going to eat.” So we all got up and we left. So, I thought that was just going to be one isolated incident until we got to the Holiday Inn. We got to the Holiday Inn…plenty of black maids. Maids worked there. Matter of fact, it was a maid that brought my food to the room all the time for me. She was sneaking to bring me cheeseburgers, french fries…feeding me breakfast and everything. But, for me to get to stay in that hotel, I had to enter through the back door. They went in and got a laundry basket that the maid gave me. Put the sheet over it to cover it up, and took me to the room. I stayed in the room and watched TV. When we had a ball game, I had to ride out in the little laundry basket and get in the car and to go to the game. It was just unbelievable. I felt a little uncomfortable because I…you know…I was young, and Mama and them was here in Frankfort and I was just with a ball team. I didn’t know if any harm was going to come to me or not, you know. I just wasn’t used to that. But, I felt safe with the ball team because they always protected me, you know. I don’t know if you remember Susan Beamston? Used to be with the Parks and Recreation. She was…she was the person that drove me along everywhere, and always looked out for me.HAY: What was the name of the ball team?
GRAHAM: It was called the Lexington Mavericks.
HAY: And this was a Lexington…?
GRAHAM: Lexington team.
HAY: Professional…?
GRAHAM: Professional softball team.
HAY: Softball. Women’s softball.
GRAHAM: Um hum.
HAY: And, all…mostly white players.
GRAHAM: Mostly. I played on an all-white team. And, when we got to Chattanooga,
there were all-black teams from Detroit…from Detroit, Michigan and Cleveland, Ohio had an all-black team. But, I was the only black on the team that I was playing on.HAY: So, you’d be playing those other teams.
GRAHAM: Yeah. I’d be playing against those other teams.
HAY: The league was…
GRAHAM: Yeah. Well, it was the Nationals. We went to the Nationals.
HAY: And, how did you do?
GRAHAM: There were forty-eight states. We came in eighth out of forty-eight
states. So, that was an accomplishment for us. Yeah. That was a big accomplishment.0:
13:00 …-0: 14:00HAY: You mentioned a Miss Wilson as a teacher at Second Street. Was that the same Miss Wilson or a different Miss Wilson?GRAHAM: No. That was a different Miss Wilson that went to Second Street School.
I only remember Miss Samuels, Miss Wilson, and Miss Holmes that went when they integrated the schools.BURTON: And Miss Wilson ended up at Frankfort High.
GRAHAM: Right. Miss Wilson ended up at Frankfort High School as a librarian.
HAY: And what do you remember about going to the movies at The Grand Theatre?
GRAHAM: Well, I remember the ‘free show’. We had the ‘free show’ and everybody
could go to the show. But then I went other days to the movies. Mama and Daddy would give me a little allowance and we would go to The Grand Theatre. And like Mama said, it wasn’t really anything different. The upstairs was known for having it’s rats, and if you heard somebody scream, you knew what it was. And so, everybody would turn around and look, raise your feet up, and scream and all that. But what my mother didn’t say or remember, we had the little candy counter and the popcorn and all that. Now, the candy that we had came from the downstairs when it got old. When it got old, and the candy wasn’t any good, then they brought that upstairs and the man would deliver the new candy – the fresh candy – downstairs. Now, Miss Wilson…if they had leftover hot dogs, that was a treat for us to get a hot dog. I think a hot dog was a dime. And she would go down and they would have fifteen hot dogs leftover. And so, she would bring them upstairs and anybody that wanted…that had a dime could buy these hot dogs. These hot dogs could be greenish looking [Chuckle] or some other kind of color.KATHERINE: They weren’t even hot. [Laughter]
GRAHAM: Yeah! They were old hot dogs, but to us it was exciting because you
could get a hot dog at the movie. So we got a hot dog. But everything that we got there was brought from downstairs. It was brought from downstairs.HAY: What do you remember about Miss Wilson? Miss Roberta Wilson?
GRAHAM: She was a nice woman. She was a nice woman, and she knew no matter how
many kids went to the movies, she knew who your parents were. So you’d better not get in that movie and you’d better not show off because she would get on that telephone and make a call. And we were pretty quiet at the movies. You’d have some that might get a little rowdy. And she’d always come up there with that little flashlight and she’d shine it right in your face. And she’d say, “Do you want to leave this movie? Do you want to leave this movie?” [Chuckle] And they would just straighten right up. A very nice lady. A very nice lady. But as my mother said, when we lived in The Craw, which I remember very well. We called it The Craw. Everybody raised everybody, you know. No matter who you were. If I would go up the street…and I was fighter. My mother will tell…I know she will tell you. I would fight all the time. And if I went up the street and I fell out with somebody and I would fight, they would get a switch and they would give a whipping, and then they would call my mother and say, “Teresa is down the street fighting.” And Mama would say, “Thank you very much.” And when I got home, I was going to get another whipping because she would tell on me again. But that’s what you did. My grandmother…we had families…we had some families that had a lot of kids. They had seventeen/eighteen kids. And my grandmother would send me to the bakery or to the store, and she would say, “Get me three loaves of bread…” I mean “Get me five loaves and stop them around to Miss Mary Clay’s and drop them off, because she has seventeen/eighteen kids.” She would buy bread and give to them. If she would get a big ham or any kind of meat, she would cut it up. She’d send so much around there. If somebody was sick, people would come to your house and bring you soup. They’d bring you whatever you needed if you were sick. They’d come and check on you. Everybody took care of everybody. Everybody protected everybody.HAY: Did you miss that when those days were over?
GRAHAM: I really did. I really did. All of our friends were all close together.
We were all close knit. And like my mother said, when things changed, people parted and went all different directions. And some of your friends you lost contact with. You didn’t see and all that. But, I really missed that. I had been with these kids since I was a child, you know. Since I was a little kid…running around with them. I missed it a lot. I missed it a lot. But I had two wonderful parents. I had two wonderful parents. If I could have picked them out myself, I couldn’t have picked two greater parents. My mother and my father. I tell everybody. I had the greatest parents in the whole world. We always came first. The children came first. We always came first. Couldn’t have had better parents.BURTON: And you were fortunate enough to have your parents stay married.
GRAHAM: Stay married. Exactly. Because I had friends of mine that their parents
split up and parted, and it would be devastating on a young child or a young person, you know. They didn’t understand that, and that would make us just even closer, you know. It did. But they stayed together. My grandmother always…that’s one thing I will say my grandmother was always wrong about. When my mother and father got married, my grandmother said, “It’s never going to last.” When Mama’s sister, Anna Mary and Costello, got married, my grandmother said that would never last. Well, I quote her to be wrong because Anna Mary and Costello stayed married until death do they part. And my mother and father stayed together until death do they part. For fifty-three years. And that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. And believe me, to stay with my mother for fifty-three years, my father had to be a very, strong man. [Laughter]HAY: Do you have any other stories you’d like to tell about downtown
Frankfort…going to The Grand Theatre…anything that comes to mind having talked about old times today?GRAHAM: No, not really. Not in particular.
KATHERINE: You’re not going to have a job.
HAY: Oh, I’m sorry!
GRAHAM: No. No. [Laughter] Don’t worry. Don’t worry about that.
HAY: Are you sure?
BURTON: She’s going to have a story next week. [Laughter]
HAY: I think we’re holding her up from getting to work.
KATHERINE: She came home…she came down here last week…
GRAHAM: Yeah and turned it off.
KATHERINE: Was all down. I mean down…down. They had it all mixed up.
GRAHAM: I had one for seven years and one for three years.
KATHERINE: Honey, they are the working-est people…
GRAHAM: They’re like family.
KATHERINE: …On the planet. They work.
GRAHAM: They were like family.
KATHERINE: The rest of them sitting down or going for a smoke every few minutes.
Those Mexicans work.GRAHAM: They love them. You know, at the end…they told…I knew on Monday. See we
had to do…we had government contracts. We do all the military packaging for all military weapons. That’s what we do at my plant. We do all the packaging for military weapons. Government contracts. So every twenty-five years, you have to do this picture ID and social security card. Only every twenty-five years. So we did that, and then things started to buzz off that they were illegal, so I knew that Monday that I was going to loose them. I cried all that week.KATHERINE: She cried all week.
GRAHAM: I cried all that week. I called Mama and cried, you know. One was
twenty-three and the other was like thirty-seven, and they told me what their real names were, you know, because they had this other name with some social security number. They told me what their real names were. I heard about how hard it was for them to come to the United States. I heard them talking about sleeping with magazines underneath their pillow and looking at the places…what it looks like in the United States…with the ocean and the beaches and the sand. And that’s where they wanted to go. Yeah, their dreams. And one of them…their uncle had brought them over here and they talked about the danger that they had leaving home to get over here. And it just tore me up. It just tore me up that I was going to loose them, you know. They gave me a hug. They told me they loved me. One of them told me…he said, “You’re the best boss I ever had. You taught me so much.” I said, “Well, you’re going to have a hard time finding a job. Just don’t let them hire you. Go work somewhere, but just don’t let them hire you.” [Chuckle] But they were. They were good workers.HAY: What plant do you work at? Where’s…?
GRAHAM: Foam Design Packaging Company in Lexington.
HAY: Well Sheila, do you have any others questions? I know that we’ve taken a
wonderful chunk of their day here, which has been great.BURTON: And I appreciate it. You know, Miss Katherine, I meant to ask you…and
this doesn’t have to be on camera. We can come back and talk to you. Do you remember anything about the old library that your sister ran? The black library?KATHERINE: Yeah, I ran it after her.
GRAHAM: Yeah, she ran that library too.
BURTON: Did you? I’ll come back and talk to you about that. Because, you know,
any information.GRAHAM: About the library?
BURTON: About the library.
KATHERINE: You know what’s wrong with me is I have forgotten so much stuff. I’ve
forgotten so much stuff. I can’t remember now like I used to.BURTON: Well, people remember bits and pieces, you know. I know we’ve got…
GRAHAM: Mama kind of remembers back…
BURTON: Some comments from me about…that’s when we had Brownies, you know.
GRAHAM: Uh hum. Brownies and Girl Scouts.
BURTON: Brownies, you know. Now I can remember Mary Clay has given us some
information about what her memories are, so you just kind of come back…KATHERINE: Now, it’s interesting who was there before me was Miss Jensen. Miss
Patterson’s sister, Alice.BURTON: She seceded your sister?
KATHERINE: Huh?
BURTON: She came after your sister as librarian?
KATHERINE: No. I came after her.
BURTON: Ok. And where did Miss Anna Mary fit in?
KATHERINE: Anna Mary must have been…
[Door bell rings]
BURTON: Before you or after you?
KATHERINE: Resa?
GRAHAM: That’s Lois.
KATHERINE: Tell her that I’m busy.
END OF TAPE 2
0:
15:00 …-0: 16:00END OF INTERVIEWTotal time: 1 hour, 53minutes, 59seconds (for both tapes)
17:00