Oral History Interview with Katherine & Teresa Graham Part I

“Stories From the Balcony”

Interviews about the Grand Theatre in Frankfort, Kentucky

Interview on Video with

Katherine Graham

Tape 1 – 2007OH02.34a

Conducted by Joanna Hay & Sheila Mason Burton

May 18th, 2010

This project has been supported by the Kentucky Oral History Commission

And Save The Grand Theatre, Inc.

Interview with Katherine Graham begins with her seated in her home; side table with a lamp, picture, and a little, stuffed panda beside her.

HAY: Today’s the 18th? 18th. Ok. This is May the 18th, 2010. My name is Joanna Hay and we are at the home of Miss Katherine Graham in Frankfort, Kentucky. We’re going to talk about The Grand Theatre and memories of those times. And also with me is Sheila Mason Burton who will also be asking some questions. And in the corner over there, who we may or may not hear from, is Teresa Graham. First of all, thank you so much for agreeing to do this interview, and to talk about memories of The Grand Theatre. What is your first memory of going to The Grand Theatre?

KATHERINE: My first memory would be I was glad I finally got old enough to go. My mother was kind of tight on us, so we didn’t get to go very many places. So that was one of the highlights of my life: when I got to go to The Grand Theatre. I thought that was something real big. And when I first went, I was younger so I went with my mother and my sister. But later on, after I got married, every time I’d go I’d have my husband with me.

HAY: So how old were you when you started to go? How old was old enough?

KATHERINE: I’d say I probably was about fifteen.

HAY: Do you remember what movies you saw?

KATHERINE: Oh, no! Oh, no! But I was always crazy about Shirley Temple and her curls. That’s why I love curls right today, on account of Shirley Temple.

HAY: So you remember seeing Shirley Temple movies?

KATHERINE: Yeah.

HAY: And what other kinds of movies played?

KATHERINE: I can’t think of the name of the other girl. Jane Withers? I think that was her name. Uh huh. Yeah. And, of course, then, we were crazy about cowboy movies.

HAY: So tell me what year were you born so I can get…

KATHERINE: 1927.

HAY: Alright. So when you were fifteen, that would have been in the late thirties…early forties. And, I guess, a lot of cowboy movies coming out in those days. Right? So you went with your mother and your brother…

KATHERINE: No, my mother and my sister.

HAY: Your mother and your sister. That’s right because it’s the two sisters. Tell me the name of your sister.

KATHERINE: Her name is Anna Mary Wolfe.

HAY: Ok. And, who else went to The Grand Theatre? Did you see other people you knew?

KATHERINE: Oh, yes! Uh huh. A lot of my friends. I was telling somebody that my girlfriend was a preacher’s daughter, and she couldn’t go to the theatre on Sunday. Because back then, the preacher’s daughter didn’t go to the movies. Not on Sunday. So, I would miss her on Sunday. But she’d have to wait and go later on in the week with me.

HAY: So, did you go on any…did you go mostly on the weekends? Did you also go during the week?

KATHERINE: Well, after I got married, we’d go every time the movie changed. I can’t remember what two days it played. It played two days and then it would play…I don’t know. Next time it would play three days. I can’t remember that…about how many days it played. But every time it would change, we’d go. During the week. If we had the money.

HAY: How much did it…?

KATHERINE: A lot of times we didn’t go because we didn’t have the money. I can’t think whether it was a quarter then…I can’t remember. I thought it was a quarter. I’m not sure, but I think it was a quarter. But sometimes we didn’t have the quarters to go.

HAY: So, your poor friend who couldn’t go on Sundays, she had to wait til…she’d go on Saturdays with you, or go during the week?

KATHERINE: Yes. Uh huh. Yeah.

HAY: So was it a gathering place for a lot of family and friends? What was The Grand Theatre like? Was it a…?

KATHERINE: No, it was quiet, because if anybody was talking in the theatres like they do now, somebody would holler, “Shut up!” [Laughter] Didn’t make no noise in the movies because too many people were trying to hear the movie, so no. Somebody would be hollering at you, “Shut up!” You know how they go now and make all that noise in the movies? Didn’t have that.

HAY: Did you know Miss Roberta Wilson?

KATHERINE: Yes, uh huh.

HAY: Can you tell me about her?

KATHERINE: She was a real nice person. And so, she worked there. I can’t remember how many years she worked there. She was there for many a year. And while the movie was going on, sometimes she’d come in and walk…you know, walk around inside there to make sure everybody was quiet and make sure everything was going alright. Never did see…I never saw a fight. Never saw anybody do anything wrong in the movies. She kept the peace. [Chuckle]

HAY: What years did she work there, do you think?

KATHERINE: I can’t remember that. I can’t remember. But she was there a long, long time.

HAY: Do you think she started working there in the forties? Right through?

BURTON: Was she there when you were…?

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: When you went with your mother and…?

KATHERINE: Uh huh. Yeah. She was there then.

HAY: So she was there from the time you were a teenager right through the time you were a teenager, Sheila.

KATHERINE: Was she there when it closed? I believe she was there when it closed.

BURTON: I think she was, yes.

HAY: So, two to three generations knew Miss Wilson up in the balcony at The Grand.

KATHERINE: Uh huh. I don’t think she ever worked anywhere else.

BURTON: Can you remember anyone else that worked there? I heard of Miss Callie Weathers.

KATHERINE: I think I remember Miss Callie being there when Miss Wilson had to go somewhere. She would work there. Uh huh. Yeah. She would work there in her place. Just as a fill-in. Yes.

HAY: And what else did she do as part of that job? Either Roberta Wilson or Miss Weathers?

KATHERINE: That was all they did was just collect tickets when you’d get up to the top of the steps.

HAY: And then, who did the…What about the popcorn? Who sold the popcorn and the…?

KATHERINE: I can’t remember. I don’t remember the popcorn. I’m trying to think. She had a candy stand out there, and I guess she must have had popcorn too. Yeah. Out in the hall before you’d go in, you’d stop by there and buy your candy. But we were lucky to have the money to go to the show, so we didn’t worry about no candy. [Laughter]

HAY: So, through your teenage years, how often did you go to the show?

KATHERINE: Well, when I was younger, we went probably once a week. But after I got older, we would go every time the movie…every time it changed from one movie to another.

HAY: So that might be more than once a week.

KATHERINE: Yeah. Uh huh.

HAY: So later on, you went with your husband.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: And then, did you take your kids?

KATHERINE: I can’t remember. Resa, did you all go to the movies with us? No. No. I don’t remember taking the kids.

HAY: So was it date night for you and your husband when you went out to the movies?

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: That was nice. Can you describe the entrance to the theatre, and the ticket booth and the entrance, and how you got into the theatre?

0: 1:00 …-0: 2:00KATHERINE: Ok. You’d stop downstairs and buy your ticket, and then you’d go up all those steps. And that Miss Wilson would be sitting right up at the top of those steps, and she’d be waiting there to take your ticket. And then you’d go on in.

HAY: And the…did you have the…do I understand correctly that there was the main movie that you went to, and then was there news or serials or…can you tell me what else you saw?

KATHERINE: They had a lot of commercials. A lot of commercials. And then they had a cartoon. A cartoon. Before every movie, they had a cartoon.

HAY: What kind of cartoon?

KATHERINE: Oh, Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. All the kind like that.

HAY: So you would want to be on time probably to see all of that before the movie started.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: Did you have a particular place you sat?

KATHERINE: Yeah. We would sit down kind of…when I say kind of low, there were two landings. There were two landings, and we would sit on the bottom landing. Because I finally heard that…you know, I used to hear paper on the floor rattling. And when you hear paper on the floor rattling, you know, you would wonder what it was, you know. And then finally we found out what it was. It was rats. They had rats. And so I would put my feet up on the seat because I didn’t want the rats crawling across my…you know, you could put your feet up on the arms of the seat in front of you where nobody was sitting in that seat? And that’s why we sat in this particular place. We found out that they were not as bad down on that landing as they were up on the other part. Now, how they got up that high, I don’t know. I don’t know how they got up that high to be in that theatre, but it seemed to me like they didn’t anybody do anything about it. They just got used to it.

HAY: What other things did you do in town when you…either before or after you went to the movies? Did you…?

KATHERINE: We’d stop in the dime store. In the dime store. It was right next to the theatre. We would stop in there. And they had a drug store down on the corner. We’d either stop in the drug store or stop in the dime store and walk around in there until it was time for the movie to start.

HAY: And then, where did you live?

KATHERINE: I lived on Blanton Street. All of that is torn down now. That’s down there where the Plaza is.

HAY: So you would walk…in…you would walk?

KATHERINE: Yeah. Uh huh.

HAY: To the theatre? To the dime store?

KATHERINE: Uh huh. Yes. It was in walking distance. Yeah.

HAY: And did you live there when you were growing up as well as after you were married? In the same area?

KATHERINE: Yes. Uh huh. That’s what we called The Craw.

HAY: So what was that like in those days?

0: 3:00 …-0: 4:00KATHERINE: Oh, it was wonderful! That was wonderful.

HAY: Tell me about it.

KATHERINE: That’s where everybody looked after everybody. You didn’t want for nothing. Everybody looked after everybody. That’s why…we would have the floods, and I was working on campus…not then, but later on…and the kids would ask me when I got to working up there…the would say, “What did you all do when the water came up?” I said, “We’d wash the mud off. Wash the mud off the furniture.” And they said, “Then what did you do?” I said, “We’d move right back in.” And they said, “You’d move right back in where the water had been?” I said, “We didn’t have no other choice. We didn’t have no where else to go.” So when they came and started the work on the Plaza, they promised everybody that they were going to build so many houses for the people that owned their homes. That’s what they promised. Ok. So, those houses still haven’t been built. That’s been…I don’t know how many years ago. We are still waiting on the houses to be built. But, most of the people they promised that to are dead now.

HAY: So where did everybody go?

KATHERINE: You did the best you could. You tried to find something somewhere else. Somewhere out. If you could buy, you tried to find something somewhere else.

HAY: But some people that…some people that wasn’t feasible to buy another house comparable to the one they owned before, so…

KATHERINE: My mother…she lived on Blanton Street too. Now, she bought a house out on Holmes Street. But before she bought the house, her house caught on fire. And, anybody that didn’t sell their house right away, sometimes – mysteriously like – their house would catch on fire. I remember that. Their house would catch on fire. Mysteriously like. And a lot of people moved out in…a lot of people moved over to South Frankfort. And a lot of people…I’m trying to think where…I don’t know where the rest of the people went. They just scattered around. That’s the first time anything like that has happened where people just got scattered. Before that, everybody was all together and looked after everybody. But now, everybody is scattered around. I’ve gone years with people I haven’t seen since I moved out here.

HAY: So the neighborhood was truly a support system, and…

KATHERINE: Yes, it was. It really was.

HAY: Neighbors took care of neighbors.

KATHERINE: Yes. That’s right. That’s right.

HAY: What year did that happen? What year was…or over which years did the Plaza get built and those houses get torn down?

KATHERINE: I’m trying to think what year that was.

BURTON: It would have been the sixties. Late sixties.

KATHERINE: It would have been in the fifties?

BURTON: Mid to late sixties.

KATHERINE: Ok. Alright.

HAY: So is that when you…is that about when you left?

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: That area?

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: And did you move…where did you move after that?

KATHERINE: We moved on High Street across from where the post off…where the old post office used to be. Uh huh. We moved on High Street. And then from High Street, we moved out here on Ivy.

HAY: So things change.

KATHERINE: Yes. A lot. A lot.

HAY: When you think back on those days, tell me about…tell me about your most positive memories of Craw, and the neighborhood, and the friendships. What are your positive memories?

KATHERINE: Oh, we had some good times. We had some real good times, and we had some real good friends. And like I said, everybody looked after everybody. You didn’t have to worry about nothing. You didn’t have to worry about nothing because whatever was wrong, they’d fix it. If it was broke, they’d fix it.

HAY: And that was just neighbors and friends?

KATHERINE: Yeah. Neighbors and friends.

HAY: Families?

KATHERINE: Families and everybody.

HAY: And then what about…what about memories that were not so…that you’re glad are no more? What about some of those sort of harder memories? Those harder times from that part of…?

KATHERINE: Well, my mother…my mother used to take in boarders, and she…what happened was when the…that’s when The Capitol Hotel was down there and The Southern Hotel. And when they would have chauffeurs…they would come to town…they couldn’t stay in the hotels so what they would do if they had a black chauffeur, my mother would keep them. She would take them as boarders. In other words, they had a little deal with her where if they brought a black chauffeur, she would keep them all night. They would pay her to keep them all night because they couldn’t stay in the hotel. And I’m glad to see that all that has changed. You don’t have to worry about that now. You can stay anywhere you want to stay, and if you don’t, it’s taken care of.

HAY: And of course, The Grand Theatre was also segregated.

KATHERINE: Yeah!

HAY: Along like you’re talking about at the hotel.

KATHERINE: We sat up in that roost forever. We sat up in there…we called it The Roost. That’s what we called it: The Roost. It was called The Roost. And it was a roost. Now you sit anywhere you want to.

0: 5:00 …-0: 6:00HAY: So what did you feel about having to go up to the balcony to sit in The Roost? How did you feel about that at the time?

KATHERINE: Well, at the time, I really didn’t care. I’d been raised, you know, where I realized what was going on and so I really didn’t care. I was the kind that didn’t nobody bother me. Especially if my mother was with me, I wasn’t worried about nothing. Because my mother was something else. And as long as she was with me, I wasn’t worried about a thing. It didn’t bother me at all. I didn’t have no problems.

HAY: And now, when you look back, what do you feel about it?

KATHERINE: I say, “I remember when…” That’s all I say. “I remember when…”

HAY: How do you talk to your children and your grandchildren about those times and what that was like?

KATHERINE: Oh, I tell them about what happened. I want them to remember this. And a lot of it…they saw some of it. They realized it. They saw some of it. And when their father was living, he would tell them a lot of things what happened when he was in service, you know. So they know a lot about all that.

HAY: What was your mother’s name?

KATHERINE: Adie President.

HAY: President?

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: What a great name!

KATHERINE: P – R – E – S – I – D – E – N – T.

HAY: Wow! And tell me about your mother.

KATHERINE: My mother was something else! Nobody bothered my mother. They made one of her and they threw away the key. She was something else. Nobody bothered me or my sister because they knew my mother.

HAY: Now where did she come from? Was she from here?

KATHERINE: Yes. She was from Frankfort. She sure was. She was from Frankfort.

HAY: And then what about your father?

KATHERINE: My father…I had a father and then I had a stepfather. My stepfather made seven dollars a week. Can you believe it? He made seven dollars a week. That’s what he made where he worked. Seven dollars a week.

HAY: What did he do?

KATHERINE: And my mother took in washing and ironing. She never went out to work. She never went out to work. She stayed at home.

HAY: So she took in washing and ironing and boarders, like we talked about.

KATHERINE: Ironing…uh huh…and boarders. And we had something to eat every night. And we had clothes to wear to school. We didn’t want for nothing because she sewed.

HAY: Did you have to help at all around the house?

KATHERINE: Yes. That’s why my kids talk about it now. About me ironing. I ironed everything! I ironed everything. I know how to iron everything, whatever it is. They say, “You did all that ironing when you were young, why are you still doing all this ironing?” They couldn’t understand that.

HAY: Do you like to iron?

KATHERINE: Love to iron. But we never got to cook. I never did learn how to cook. My sister learned, but I never did learn how to cook. And that’s why when I married, I didn’t know how to cook. Because Mother wouldn’t let us go in the kitchen because she took in boarders, and she did all the cooking.

HAY: And then tell me about your sister. What’s her name?

KATHERINE: Anna Wolfe. Anna Mary Wolfe.

HAY: And did she stay in Frankfort? Living in Frankfort?

KATHERINE: No, she finally moved to Texas. But she didn’t move until way late. She went to Kentucky State, and then later on, she was a principal at Rosenwald School. She was the smart one in the family.

HAY: And did you go to Mayo Underwood?

KATHERINE: Yes. I went to Mayo Underwood. And I went to Kentucky State for…I think it was two semesters…something like that. But, I didn’t like school. I never did like school.

HAY: Well, you know I recently talked with your friend, Romania Marshall.

KATHERINE: Yes, uh huh.

HAY: And she said you two were the best of friends.

KATHERINE: We are.

HAY: Lifelong friends.

KATHERINE: Yeah, been friends for years.

HAY: And did you go to school together?

KATHERINE: Yes, but we weren’t in the same class. I was in class with her sister, Dorothy. Uh huh. I was in class with her sister. Romania was a class ahead of me. Uh huh.

BURTON: Can you tell us a little bit about going to school at Mayo Underwood?

KATHERINE: Oh, yes.

BURTON: What do you remember about Mayo Underwood?

0: 7:00 …-0: 8:00KATHERINE: I remember it well. We had some good teachers. Had some good teachers. They were wonderful. Like Miss Holmes and Miss Samuels. Miss Case. All those teachers. And that was a sad day. That was a real sad day when they tore the school down and got rid of the teachers. That was a sad day in Frankfort. Wasn’t nothing nobody could do about it. Everybody thought they could do something, but wasn’t nothing they could do. They just came in and closed the school, and got rid of the teachers. I think they replaced maybe two or three. They did two or three. The rest of them, that was it. They just didn’t have any jobs at all.

HAY: When did that happen?

KATHERINE: I don’t know. I can’t remember what year that was. I’m not good on remembering years. I can’t remember what year that was.

BURTON: That was about the mid-sixties.

KATHERINE: Mid-sixties. Uh huh.

HAY: Was it a sudden decision? Was it a sudden change? Did it…or was it…?

KATHERINE: Well, that’s when they integrated the schools. When they finally did it at the schools. When they did integrate. Now my husband…if he was here…if he was still living, he could tell you about when they integrated the schools because he had a lot of…he had a lot of problems when they integrated the schools. With going over to complain about different things. With his children.

BURTON: Miss Katherine, you went to Mayo Underwood when it was a high school so you went to the high school there.

KATHERINE: Yeah.

BURTON: How was that?

KATHERINE: That was fine because all the teachers were still there then. Uh huh.

BURTON: Well, I mean were there sports? Or did they have dances?

KATHERINE: Yes, basketball. Yeah. Dances and basketball, and they had a leading team and everything. Uh huh. Yeah.

BURTON: So where did you meet Mr. James?

KATHERINE: Well, see this is his home too. But we weren’t courting when he was in school. This was later on. Uh huh. After we got out of school, that you know, we started courting then. And of course, he lived in Frankfort all his life, except when he went to the Navy.

BURTON: What year did you all marry?

KATHERINE: Let’s see. I was married fifty-three years. I’m trying to think what year we got married. I’d have to figure that up. Because he’s been dead ten years.

HAY: Fifties? Late forties?

KATHERINE: Must have been.

BURTON: So, after you were married, you were a young married couple. Did you plan to have kids or did it just happen, or did you have kids?

KATHERINE: It just happened. It just happened. And it’s lucky I didn’t have but three. I wouldn’t take a dime for none of them. They are all wonderful.

HAY: What are the names of your children?

KATHERINE: Their names are: James Thomas Graham, Jr. Teresa Kay Graham. And Paula Ann Townsend.

HAY: And where do they all live?

KATHERINE: Teresa lives in Lexington, and Paula Ann and Tom live in Frankfort. And they are all wonderful children. They are wonderful to me. I don’t know what I’d do without them. They are wonderful. I’m hoping they’re going to bring me something today. Something real nice. [Chuckle]

HAY: So that you can tell whoever brings you something that they’re your favorite?

KATHERINE: They’re my favorite. Yeah. [Laughter]

BURTON: What did you think…you know, you had been to The Grand Theatre and sat in the balcony, and by the time Paula and Teresa and Tom were old enough to go, things had started changing. You know. White folks were dissatisfied. But yet we still had to go to The Grand and sit in the balcony. What did you think about your kids having to go sit…?

KATHERINE: Sit…uh huh. I just thought it was terrible…but there wasn’t nothing…nobody tried to do anything about it then. I don’t know when…I don’t know when we finally got to go to the other theatre. I can’t even remember what year that was.

BURTON: Did you ever go to The Capitol after…?

0: 9:00 …-0: 10:00KATHERINE: I can’t remember. I can’t remember what…I think I did. Yeah. I think I did. But I can’t remember. My memory is not as good as it used to be.

HAY: She keeps saying that. But even…tell me if my perception of this is correct. But even after The Capitol…black folks were allowed to go to The Capitol and you could sit wherever you wanted in The Grand, there was still a separation there. Am I correct about that?

KATHERINE: Were they both open at the same time?

BURTON: There was a brief period when they were both open at the same time.

KATHERINE: Ok. Alright.

BURTON: When we were allowed to go to them.

HAY: Was there a time when you could go downstairs at The Grand, or did that never happen either…?

KATHERINE: No, I don’t ever remember sitting downstairs at The Grand.

HAY: So you think…so it actually closed before that integration could ever happen.

KATHERINE: I don’t remember ever sitting downstairs at The Grand.

HAY: See what I’m wondering…and it would be interesting to research this a little further…is even after it was “allowed”, everyone kept the old habits. Is that…do you think that might be possible?

BURTON: That could be. I remember going to The Capitol and sitting in the balcony.

KATHERINE: You did?

BURTON: I didn’t have to. I don’t think I had to.

KATHERINE: But you did?

BURTON: It was by choice.

KATHERINE: Did you ever sit downstairs?

BURTON: Not in The Grand.

KATHERINE: No, in The Capitol, did you?

BURTON: In The Capitol? I just don’t remember ever sitting downstairs. I may have, but I don’t remember. I don’t have as vivid a memory of The Capitol as I do at The Grand.

KATHERINE: I just can’t remember going to The Capitol. I probably didn’t have the money to go. It cost more, didn’t it?

BURTON: I’m sure it did. [Laughter]

KATHERINE: I think it cost more.

BURTON: Miss Katherine, do you remember when Paula and I were kids, and Teresa and Tom…during the summer, there used to be something called the ‘free show’.

KATHERINE: The what?

BURTON: ‘Free show’. And The Capitol and The Grand both opened their doors one day a week for kids.

KATHERINE: Yeah. I barely remember that. Uh huh.

BURTON: It was on Wednesday. And you would have to…so our parents would have to get tickets at various merchants and you had to have a ticket to go to the ‘free show’.

KATHERINE: Uh huh. I don’t know who sponsored that.

BURTON: I think it was sponsored by the businesses…the various businesses in Frankfort.

KATHERINE: Ok.

HAY: So you have a pleasant memory about that. That stuck in your mind, about the ‘free show’.

BURTON: It was something to do during the summer. One day a week you could go to the movies.

KATHERINE: Yeah. Free.

BURTON: Free.

HAY: Was it mostly the kids going?

BURTON: It was all kids.

HAY: It was all kids. Yeah.

BURTON: Parents were working.

HAY: Do you remember if there were any ever…if there were ever any live shows at The Grand Theatre? Live performances?

KATHERINE: No, I don’t remember that.

HAY: What was downtown Frankfort like in those days?

KATHERINE: Oh, it was wonderful! The people in the country came to town and they stayed all day Saturday. All day Saturday they stood in front of the stores, and stood inside the stores. It was like a holiday to them. They’d come every Saturday. And you know what? I’ve often wondered, they would go buy their groceries first. All the country people would go buy their groceries first. And it would be so hot you couldn’t get your breath. Ok. And then, they’d have all these groceries in the truck with the milk and stuff. That milk didn’t sour. That’s what I never could understand. They stayed there all day talking, you know, and you wondered, “What are they going to do about that milk that’s sitting in the truck?” [Laughter] But they’d stay all day. You remember that, Sheila?

BURTON: Yes, ma’am.

KATHERINE: They’d stay all day.

HAY: And then, some people must have come on a bus or on a train with their…to shop. What did they do with all their bags?

KATHERINE: Well, they had old cars and trucks and things.

BURTON: When you say from the country, you mean like from Hickman Hill and from Farmdale? Evergreen? All those outlying areas?

KATHERINE: Yeah. Yeah.

BURTON: Of Frankfort.

KATHERINE: Uh huh. They all had some trucks and things. But there wasn’t that many black people that were farming then. If they had any, I didn’t see them.

BURTON: There were a few. Their names escape me.

KATHERINE: Uh huh. But I don’t remember them coming and staying all day, and standing in front of the stores. You remember? You know? I don’t remember that.

HAY: It brings up…I did an interview last week with Miss Mary Tillman, and she grew up right here. And she kept talking about Prince…

KATHERINE: Prince Hall.

HAY: Prince Hall. And I think her grandparents were farmers.

BURTON: Yeah, she grew up in Greenhill.

KATHERINE: In Greenhill.

BURTON: Before Prince Hall was built.

KATHERINE: Uh huh. That was Greenhill.

HAY: Ok.

KATHERINE: Now see, I…Sheila…I never…I don’t remember ever going to Greenhill that much. In other words, we didn’t go to…Mother didn’t let us go to other sections of town. I didn’t get to go to South Frankfort that much. If you lived on one side of town, you…some kids…well, my mother was real protective. We didn’t get to go. We didn’t get to go with…like the other kids did, you know, to other parts of town. And I don’t know why. Because nothing was going on then, you know. [Chuckle] Nothing was going on. Do you see how dark it’s getting?

BURTON: Might be a storm brewing.

KATHERINE: Oh.

HAY: When people around Frankfort started talking about bringing back The Grand Theatre and turning it into an arts center and having performances there, what were your thoughts about that when you heard about that idea?

KATHERINE: I said, “My legs are hurting me so bad, I’ll never make it.” [Chuckle] I’ll never make it. Steps or no steps, I’ll never make it.

HAY: We’ll have to get her down there.

KATHERINE: My arthritis is so bad; I’ll never make it. [Laughter] I hope you all have a good time.

HAY: There’s an elevator up to the balcony now. [Laughter] And you can sit wherever you want.

KATHERINE: [Laughter] Wherever you want. Ok. Reserve me a seat.

BURTON: If mobility was not a problem…if it was easy to get there, would you be excited about going to The Grand and seeing…?

KATHERINE: Yes, I sure would. I sure would. I’d say, “I remember when…”

BURTON: Well, we might get you down there to see The Temptations.

KATHERINE: Oh, yes! Uh huh.

BURTON: You would have enjoyed The Platters and The Coasters.

KATHERINE: They were really good, I bet.

HAY: What did your husband do for a living?

KATHERINE: He worked…for years, he worked at Stagg Distillery. And then after that, he worked at the state. He was a state worker. I’m trying to think where else he worked. He worked at the VFW. He was a Commander at the VFW. Then he had this…he had a bad heart. He had several heart attacks before it happened to him.

BURTON: Your husband was a veteran.

KATHERINE: Yes.

BURTON: Which war?

KATHERINE: Navy. Yes. I don’t remember which war that was.

BURTON: Probably World War II. Were you all married while he was in the service?

KATHERINE: No.

HAY: Did he go overseas?

KATHERINE: Yes, uh huh.

HAY: Do you know where he went?

KATHERINE: No, I don’t. But he got a purple heart, I know.

HAY: That’s quite an honor.

KATHERINE: Uh hum.

HAY: Did he talk about his experiences overseas?

KATHERINE: Yes.

HAY: What that was like? What did he tell you?

KATHERINE: Yes, he did. He told me that they went somewhere…when he was in service, they went…I’ve forgot where they were…I have forgotten where they were, but they went to some…they were on a train, he said. And he said, when all the soldiers got off, everybody went to the restroom. And they had this great big sign up there saying, “White Only”. And this is what…I can’t remember what part of the world he was in then, but anyway he said they had a sign up there saying, “White Only”. And he said then when the white soldiers got through using, these other soldiers got off with their guns and stood there so that the black soldiers could use the same facilities. And I never forgot that. When he told me about that, I couldn’t imagine being in the service and having to go through that. I couldn’t imagine.

HAY: But then his own…the servicemen in his own company then made sure that they were able to use the…

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

HAY: The white servicemen stepped up…

KATHERINE: Uh huh. After. Because he said someone stood out there with guns to…in other words protecting them from whatever they were afraid might happen.

HAY: What other stories did he tell you about his experiences overseas?

KATHERINE: That’s the only one that…I’ve kept that one in my…I can’t think. He told me a lot of them, but I can’t remember them right now. But that one stuck with me for a long time. I just couldn’t imagine. And he said nobody would believe, you know, what goes on, you know. They just wouldn’t believe it. Now, my daughter…she went through the same thing when she started playing ball. She played…my daughter, Teresa, she played ball with…oh, I don’t know how many teams that she belonged to. Because she was real good. A real good player, so everybody wanted her on their team. So, they were playing ball somewhere out of town. I can’t think of where they were. Chattanooga, Tennessee. That’s where they were. And, they had to sneak her in the hotel. They had to sneak her in the hotel so that she could play ball. She could play. And they’d sneak her in, and then when it would come time to play, here she’d come out. The only black girl on the team. Here she’d come out. Of course, that was the highlight of the day, you know, when she came out. [Laughter] That was the highlight of the day when she came out. And they’d wonder how she got in there. They couldn’t figure out how she got in there. But she was there to play, and she played. They wasn’t going to do nothing then after she got out on the field.

BURTON: Was this high school?

0: 11:00 …-0: 12:00TERESA: No, this was in 1970. 1970. Chattanooga, Tennessee.

HAY: 1970. Chattanooga, Tennessee.

TERESA: They wouldn’t serve me food. They had to bring my meals and slip them into the room.

KATHERINE: They’d slip them in the room.

TERESA: And to get me to the room, they put me in a laundry basket and rolled me to the room. We played in the Nationals in Chattanooga. Came in eighth out of forty-eight states. We came in eighth.

BURTON: Your son is a veteran also.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: And he went overseas, right?

KATHERINE: Yeah. Tom went overseas and they went to Germany. How many times? I don’t know how many times Pam went…his wife…and them went to Germany, but Tom…Now this last time, Tom was going to…where was he going? Iraq? Tom…Teresa? Korea? Ok, he was going to Korea. Well, when he got over there…this is why he’s still in service…when he got over there, and they saw his leg…you’ve got to see his leg. It happened while he was in service. His leg is horrible looking. He had a blood clot in his leg. And when they got over there…when he got over there and the doctors looked at his leg, they said, “Oh, we don’t have any doctors over here that know how to treat that.” They put him back on a plane and sent him right back home. Of course, we were all happy because he got to come back, you know. They sent him right back home. Said, “We don’t have any doctors over here that know how to treat nothing like that.” And his leg does look awful. And so they let him come back home. By then, it was time for him to get out of the service.

BURTON: He was following the footsteps of his dad.

KATHERINE: Yeah.

BURTON: Serving the country.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: Does that make you proud?

KATHERINE: Yes. It does. It does. I didn’t get to his graduation, but his wife went. And she said, “When that man pinned…” She said, “That’s the first time I’ve ever seen a man stand there and cry like that.” When he pinned that…something…whatever that they pinned on him…to give him…and pinned that on him, she said, “The man had tears coming down his face.” And they presented him with…well, he brought it home. Everything that he got was real nice. The things that he got. And so when he came home, I was teasing him. And I said, “Tom, they said the man was crying when he pinned that on you.” He said, “Well, Mama, you’ve got to realize now that I’m the cook and that man knew…he knew that I was leaving.” [Chuckle] “He was worried about that food he wasn’t going to get anymore!” I said, “No, that wasn’t what it was!” [Laughter]

HAY: She turns everything into a good story, doesn’t she? Tell me about your days and your friendship with Romania. She talked about how you two would take your kids out and…

KATHERINE: Yeah. We’d take them everyday. We’d take them out everyday. We’d take them uptown. And we’d get them all dressed up, and if they were little, we put them in the stroller. And if they could walk, they walked along beside the stroller. So this particular day, we were taking them uptown. Because all we did was walk in the stores and look around at the things, you know, show the kids the toys and everything, Well, one of them fell down running. Well, we were so busy getting them dressed to go uptown, when she fell down, she didn’t have any panties on. [Laughter] We were getting them dressed and she never did tell her mother…I can’t remember if it was one of Romania’s or one of mine. They never did tell us that they didn’t have any panties on. [Laughter] So here we had to go back home and get some panties, and go back again. I’m telling you, but we had some good times. We’d take them everyday. And the people knew us in the store, you know. Everybody knew everybody.

HAY: So what do you mean by uptown?

KATHERINE: When I say uptown, that means up on St. Clair Street. That was St. Clair Street. Is that the street the post office is on? Is that St. Clair?

BURTON: No, the post office was on High. The Grand Theatre was on St. Clair. And Woolworths…

KATHERINE: Ok. Well, that’s where we were. On St. Clair. Uh huh. Yeah. Where Selbert’s Jewelry Store is? Yeah. They are still there, aren’t they?

BURTON: They are.

KATHERINE: They’ve been there…that’s where my husband got my wedding rings. At Selbert’s.

HAY: Hold up your hand. Let me get your ring.

KATHERINE: At Selbert’s. That’s where he got those. And he finally got through paying for them. [Laughter]

HAY: Thanks.

0: 13:00 …-0: 14:00HAY: Am I right in that Romania lived in South Frankfort?

KATHERINE: Yes. She lived in South Frankfort. Now, I lived on the north side, but she lived on the south side. We went to Kentucky State together, and we lived on the same street together before they moved to Dayton.

HAY: Romania talked about how her daughter, Angela, was in the first class to integrate Murray Street School. Do you remember that time?

KATHERINE: Ok. Yeah.

HAY: Do you remember? What do you remember about that time?

KATHERINE: No, I don’t remember what happened, but I do remember that she was the first.

HAY: And Romania also talked about the March when Martin Luther King came to town.

KATHERINE: Yes. Uh huh.

HAY: Do you remember that?

KATHERINE: Yes.

HAY: Were you there?

KATHERINE: No, I wasn’t there, but my mother was there and my daughter was there. My daughter is the one that probably can tell you something about that day because they all…they wouldn’t let them leave school, but they left school anyway. And she got in trouble. She got in trouble because she left school. She told the principal…I think it was the principal…can she talk?

HAY: I hope we get you afterwards.

0: 15:00 …-0: 16:00KATHERINE: She can tell you what happened.

HAY: This is Teresa?

KATHERINE: This is Teresa.

HAY: Who this happened to?

TERESA: In elementary school. She wants to tell you about when Martin Luther King took me back to school.

KATHERINE: He took her back to school.

HAY: Tell that story. Tell that whole story.

KATHERINE: But see, I don’t know it by…

HAY: Well, then we’ll get her to tell it. You to tell it. I want both of you to tell it. We’ll get your version and then Miss Katherine.

KATHERINE: Ok. Well see, all I remember of what she told me…you tell me briefly so I can say it. She wanted to see Martin Luther King so she left school…

TERESA: Mr. Leo Ball said he was going to expel us from school.

KATHERINE: I can’t hear you.

TERESA: Mr. Leo Ball said he was going to expel us from school if we went to see [..]

KATHERINE: He was going to expel them from school if they went to see Martin Luther King, but she went anyway. And so, when she got there…how did you get to talk to Martin Luther King?

TERESA: Two of his body guards. I was on the front of the stage and two of his bodyguards heard us say we were going to get expelled from school, but we didn’t care. We just wanted to see Dr. Martin Luther King. And so he said, “What did you just say?” I said, “We’re going to get expelled from school because we came to see Dr. Martin Luther King.” He said, “Well, I want you kids to stand right here until after this is over.” So we said, “Ok.” So we stood there. And so when it was over, he said, “Come on with me.” And we went to [..] over at The Capitol and he called Dr. Martin Luther King over, and I was like…my mouth was just wide open, I mean, because I just idolized him anyway. And he said…and the security man was telling him that we were kids that had left the school, and that the principal of the school was going to expel us from school. And he said, “No, you children aren’t going to get expelled. This is the greatest day in history right here! You’re not going to get expelled from school.” So we rode in his car and he took us back to the school. School was just about letting out. And he went straight to the principal’s office and took me to class. And the secretary at Second Street School paged Mr. Leo Ball. That was his name: Leo Ball. And said, “Someone’s in the office here that wants to see you.” And she just kept looking at him because she couldn’t believe who it was. So Mr. Leo Ball walked in and Dr. Martin Luther King introduced himself. He said, “I know who you are.” And he said, “I have an understanding that these children are going to get expelled from school for coming to The March on Frankfort today.” And he said, “That’s what I told them, and that’s what I’m going to do.” And so they went back into the office and they talked for about fifteen or twenty minutes, and they came back out and Mr. Ball said, “I’ll see you in school tomorrow. Both of you. Now, get out of here!” And that was it.

BURTON: That’s a great story.

TERESA: And that was it.

KATHERINE: See I couldn’t tell all of it.

TERESA: See, Mama didn’t know it all.

KATHERINE: No.

TERESA: They called Mama and were telling her, and Mama said, “Do I understand this right?” [Laughter] “Of all the people…you know how many people was at The March on Frankfort? Of all the people, how were you involved in this?” But it was a memorable day. It was a memorable day. He was such a great man. Just to listen to him talk, you know.

BURTON: I remember that the principal at Frankfort High also told us that we would be expelled if we went, but he had to back off of that because the governor’s daughter went.

HAY: Mary Fran Breathitt, right?

TERESA: Mary Fran Breathitt, right. That’s exactly right.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: And she stayed. He couldn’t expel us unless he expelled her, so he backed off.

KATHERINE: But you all had a hard time when you first got over there, didn’t you?

BURTON: It was tough. It was tough adjusting.

TERESA: It was tough. I started in the seventh grade. That was the roughest year going to school.

KATHERINE: But I tried to think…we had one teacher…there was one teacher that was over to the schools…I thought it was the Second Street School…that she said…that she always swore, that she would never teach a black child. That was one of her things that she had said all her life. And she quit. But I can’t…right now, I couldn’t tell you who she was. But she quit. And that’s what they should have done. If you don’t want to teach a child…you don’t want to teach a black child, you don’t need to be there. You don’t need to be there at all. You wouldn’t want her teaching your children, you know. She didn’t need to be there at all.

BURTON: You went through two transitions. You saw Paula leave Mayo Underwood and go to Frankfort High.

KATHERINE: Uh hum.

BURTON: Which was integrated.

KATHERINE: Uh hum.

BURTON: So that was an adjustment for her.

KATHERINE: Uh huh.

BURTON: Because that was the first time that she went to school with white kids. And then you saw Teresa and Tom leave Mayo Underwood and go to Second Street.

KATHERINE: No, they didn’t go to Second Street.

TERESA: Yes, we did. Seventh and eight grade at Second Street.

KATHERINE: Did you? I don’t remember you all going to Second Street.

TERESA: That’s where it all began.

KATHERINE: Ok.

BURTON: I mean, how was that for you as a parent? To see your kids go through those kinds of transitions?

KATHERINE: Well…

BURTON: Was it tough? Was it tough back at night at the dinner table?

KATHERINE: Yeah. Uh huh. But, Jimmy handled all that. He handled that. He would go. He said I didn’t know how to talk without cussing, so he said he better go, you know. [Chuckle] He thought that he was better, you know. He knew how to talk without, but I didn’t know how to do that. [Chuckle]

HAY: That’s really interesting. Yep. I’m not sure how to ask this, but in Mayo Underwood seemed to be such a home for so many students who went to school there. And that there’s a wistfulness in many of the stories I hear, even though there were opportunities after the other schools were integrated. What did you feel the loss was when Mayo Underwood closed?

KATHERINE: I’m trying to think if I remember exactly when they closed. I didn’t have any children in school then. Did I? I don’t think.

TERESA: Yes, you did too.

KATHERINE: When they closed? Who was there?

TERESA: We were still in school. I went from Mayo Underwood School from the fifth grade until the sixth grade then Second Street. I finished [..].

BURTON: That was in ’63. ’62. ’63.

TERESA: Right. In the seventh and eight grades I attended Second Street School.

KATHERINE: I just can’t remember that part. I can’t remember.

TERESA: Yeah. They closed when I was in sixth grade.

HAY: But your personal experience at Mayo Underwood was positive?

KATHERINE: Yes. Yes. Yes. Very positive.

HAY: Was it the teachers? Was it the students? Was it the neighborhood? The sense of belonging? Tell me what it was.

KATHERINE: Well, it was the teachers and the neighborhood. Yeah. We all got along just fine.

HAY: Do you feel you missed anything in your education at Mayo Underwood, when you look back?

KATHERINE: No, I don’t think I did. I didn’t get to go to the games. And I didn’t get to go to the dances like the rest of the kids because my mother was real strict. I would liked to have gone to some more games and some dances and things. That’s all I missed. And, I didn’t have to stay home because I was bad. We just couldn’t go because that was our mother’s rule. My mother’s rule, you know. We weren’t old enough to go. Some kids went to everything, you know. Everything that went on. But we didn’t. And you all didn’t get to. You all didn’t get to go.

BURTON: No, we didn’t. We didn’t. Our parents were strict too.

KATHERINE: Yeah.

HAY: Were you as strict with your kids when they were coming up?

KATHERINE: Yeah. They tell me all the time, they were the first kids that had to go to bed before it got dark, so they didn’t see the moon until they were seventeen years old. [Laughter]

TERESA: Didn’t know what it was.

KATHERINE: Didn’t know what the moon was. [Laughter] Sheila, they had been up early all day and I made them go to bed early at night. They said they were the only kids on the block. They’d say, “You’ve got to go in?” They’d say, “Yeah, Mama’s calling.” They’d say, “It’s not even dark.” “That’s alright. We’ve got to go in.”

0: 17:00 …-0: 18:00BURTON: You remember the carnivals and…?

KATHERINE: Oh, that was the good times! That was the good times. When the carnival would come to town…or the circus…now when the circus would come to town, we would get to go. Early in the morning, you’d get up. You’d go to bed that night real early, and you’d get up early in the morning to go see them unload the elephants and the lions and…oh, that was the biggest day in Frankfort! When they’d unload…you’d get to go out there and see them unload, you know. It would be five-thirty, six o’clock in the morning and you’d be out there seeing them unload.

BURTON: Where were they held? Where were those carnivals?

KATHERINE: Out there where…I think the Dollar Store’s out there now, isn’t it Resa? Out on Holmes Street. And then, when the carnival was coming to town, oh that was a big…that was a big thing. A big thing. But, now when you’d go to the carnivals and they had all the dances…they had all the dances…the black men couldn’t go in there. They couldn’t go in.

HAY: What about the black women?

KATHERINE: They could go in. But they didn’t want to go in there to see the women dance if their husband’s couldn’t go in there with them, you know.

HAY: So the black men weren’t allowed, but the black women were allowed?

KATHERINE: The black men couldn’t go in to watch the white women dance. See, they didn’t have nothing but white women dancing. They’d have on these little skirts and doing the belly thing…the Shimmy. What ever they call it now…the Shimmy. Honey, they’d be doing the Shimmy, and they couldn’t go in. You could go in there and get your fortune told and things like that, you know, and go in where you’d shot down the things and all that, but you couldn’t go in there.

HAY: But the white men were allowed to go in?

KATHERINE: Yeah. But, then…later on down, they have a black show with nothing but black dancers and singers. And that’s where all the black people would go in there. There’d also be white people in there too. They would be in there too. They’d go in there to see the dancing going on, you know.

HAY: And this was all part of the traveling circus?

KATHERINE: That’s all part…that’s all part. And everybody knew that. Everybody knew it. Didn’t nobody have to tell you, “You don’t go in there.” Everybody knew, you know. Now, with the circus, it didn’t matter because everybody was up under the big tent, you know. Everybody goes in. But with the carnival, it was different because everything was a different show. Each tent was something different.

HAY: So these were two…the circus was one thing at one time, and the carnival was a different thing at a different time?

KATHERINE: Uh huh. The circus was one thing. They didn’t even have the same names. Ringling Brothers Circus, you know. And then, I can’t think of the name of the carnivals, you know. But they were two different things.

HAY: And would they happen in that same place on Holmes Street?

KATHERINE: Yes, everybody used the same ground. Everybody used the same ground. That’s the biggest ground we had in Frankfort.

HAY: And, would everybody walk to get there? Would you walk?

KATHERINE: No, you’d drive. If you had a car, you’d drive.

HAY: Because it was out far enough. I don’t know how far that is in miles.

KATHERINE: Now, when we were young…when we were young and we lived on Blanton Street, one man on the street had a car. One man on the street had a car. One house had a telephone. Everybody would go to that one house to use the phone. Miss Blanton was the one that had a phone. And if you wanted to call somebody, you’d go to ask them, “Can I used your phone?” And this one man, he had a car. I never will forget that. He lived next door to us. He’s the only man on that street. Now, you…everybody’s got a car on this street. Everybody on this street has got a car. [Chuckle]

BURTON: Do you remember the name of the man who had the car on the street? Your neighbor? Your next door neighbor?

KATHERINE: He was Helen’s…he was kin to Helen Haze. You remember Helen?

BURTON: I do.

KATHERINE: You know? Uh huh. It was her stepfather. He lived next door to us. He was married to her mother. Well, she wasn’t her mother, but she raised Helen. She raised Helen. Yeah. Had one car. Can you imagine?

BURTON: Was there much live entertainment?

HAY: I’m going to switch tapes.

END OF TAPE 1

1: 19:00 …-0: