Oral History Interview with Judith Clark & Janie Downey

“Stories From the Balcony”

Interviews about the Grand Theatre in Frankfort Kentucky

Interview on Video with Judy Clark and Janie Downey

On Location at the Grand Theatre

Tape 0015JTH_DV

Conducted by Joanna Hay

November 7, 2006

This project has been supported by the Kentucky Oral History Commission

and Save The Grand Theatre, Inc.

LOCATION IS THE DOWNSTAIRS LEVEL AT THE GRAND THEATRE

HAY: Just to get started, starting with you Judy, tell me your name.

CLARK: Judy Clark.

HAY: What is your whole name?

CLARK: Well, it was Judith Ann(e) Harrod Nesselrode Clark.

HAY: And when were you born?

CLARK: July the 3rd, 1945

HAY: And where were you born?

CLARK: Here in Frankfort at Kings Daughters Hospital.

HAY: And then, Janie, your whole name…

DOWNEY: Janie Marie Downey. I was born in Frankfort on May the 16th 1946 at the Kings Daughters Hospital. [interruption, tape stopped]

CLARK: That’s a story in itself, because Kings Daughters Hospital is now apartment.

HAY: Another interesting building with a history.

CLARK: Exactly, with some history.

HAY: Janie, I want you to count to ten for me again.

DOWNEY: [counts to 10]

HAY: And then you, too.

CLARK: [counts to 10]

[interruption]

CLARK: Judy’s right about when you say that no friends… I lived in Thorn Hill in the 50s. And I remember my friends, we would catch a bus, or my aunts brought me mostly to the movies, because they would bring us to horror movies to watch us get scared. And you’d duck behind the seats and everything. And I did have some friends I went to the movies with. So, I’m not sure if I was here, or at the Capital with the friends, because Mother, this was taboo – because of the river rats coming into the theatre, she’d heard of that, and she didn’t want us to get bit or something, and we don’t even know if it’s true. Its just a tale that we heard. But my aunts brought me a lot to see horror movies.

HAY: And it was really, your parents didn’t approve of that? Your Mom didn’t want you.

DOWNEY: Oh, as far as my aunts, that was fine. But she did not want me to come down here alone or with my friends. That was definitely a no-no. And I’m sure we did sneak down here, with friends,

HAY: …as teenagers as you started to adventure out. So, what was the… what was the… we’ll get to that again… but before we go there… Judy, tell me again about the lady in the bathroom.

CLARK: Where do you want me to start?

HAY: Do the whole thing over again.

CLARK: Okay, I never did come to the Grand Theatre with any friends. It was just my sister, who is eighteen months younger than myself. So if something was playing at the Capital Theatre that we had already seen, then we would walk down to the Grand and then we would come in. And it seems like to me, that the Grand was cheaper than the Capital too, in price.

DOWNEY: [nods] I think so.

CLARK: It was probably maybe ten cents or fifteen cents. Where the Capital was either twenty or twenty-five, can’t remember exactly. But anyway, my sister and I would come. And one of the things that I remember most about being in the Grand Theatre was their beautiful big bathroom that they had. As a child, going back in a child’s eyes, it had a mirror that covered one whole side and then it had the bathrooms and the sink over to the right of that. And my sister and I were seated on the floor. I’ll never forget this, as if it were yesterday on this beautiful carpet. Because it was unlike anything we had in our home. And it was real colorful, I remember it being red and something, it could have been red and gold and black, or whatever. But there was this lady who was standing in front of the mirror, this big mirror. And she was referred to in Frankfort as Indian Martha. Now weather she was true Indian or what, but I remember her having long hair and it was graying back then, so she must have been pretty old. And she would always wear dresses, of course, back when I was a child, that’s all women ever did wear. You never saw a lady in a pair of pants, unless you were going on a hayride or something and then they had jeans. But, she was standing in front of this mirror, putting on lipstick. Bright red lipstick. And so my sister and I, I guess we were, being children, we were intrigued and about half afraid of this lady, we were sitting there, just staring at her, and so she quickly turns around and said “What’s wrong with you have you never seen anyone put lipstick on before?” Well, that scared us to do death, because she even said anything to us. So, we got up and ran out, now whether we went on down and finished watching the movie, or whether we went on home, I don’t know. But we probably had to calm ourselves a little bit before we went back home. Because we couldn’t dare tell, this was a big secret, a big secret between the two of us, because we could never tell our mother, because we weren’t supposed to be there anyway. We were supposed to be at the Capital.

HAY: And how old were you?

CLARK: We were, I lived right over here on Lewis Street, so you’re talking about two kids who had the Old Capitol grounds as the play yard. So, I was probably about nine. My sister would have been seven.

HAY: So, you’d be playing around town and you could just walk where you wanted?

CLARK: Oh yes, in those days, we could, children were free to walk to town. And since the only street that we really had to cross was Broadway, and then of course, Main Street. And of course, we had the stoplights and things. Being kids we obeyed that. So, it wasn’t a long walk for us. Just living here on Lewis Street.

HAY: So, your parents would know that you’d gone to the movies.

CLARK: Yes.

HAY: Assuming and instructing you to go to the Capital, but instead, you sneaked into the Grand.

CLARK; Instead, we would sneak down here. And we probably did that as children, probably five, six, seven times. But then, as we became teenagers, it was no big deal, if we wanted to go to the Grand. They knew that we could handle ourselves, then.

HAY: So then you would come with your friends.

CLARK: Right, but I don’t really recall coming to the Grand as a teenager. Mainly because my friends would have gone to the Capital. The… and this is not… I guess it really is kind of labeling people, but there’s just an area of town, when I was a child, that we were referred to the people as craw bats. Now, where that name came from, I don’t know, other than, this particular section was referred to as craw. So, anybody who lived, I guess it’s known now as Wilkinson Boulevard, down where the Capital Plaza, all of that area, the Bottom. It was also referred to as the Bottom. That anybody who lived in that area would have, whether it was due to convenience of going to the Grand or money, I don’t know. Because I can remember as a child, I would walk all over Frankfort paying my aunt’s bills, and get a quarter. So, see that, would allow me to go to the movie and buy me a candy bar! So, I don’t know the reason why it was referred to that. And I guess just being the bottom of Frankfort. You know, if you’re up in an aerial video, then you would see that that particular area it does come down and it does go down and that’s the way that it got its name.

HAY: So, the bottom was the other name you were talking about… is craw and the bottom. And would have visited the….? Would you have ever gone there for anything?

DOWNEY: No. It was racial. We had racial problems back then and although, I was not, my parents didn’t talk about black, white that I remember. I do know they had the bad name for black people that we could not say, and I do know that I could not say, I said crawbat in front of my mother once and I got smacked in the mouth. I was not allowed to talk down on people. We just knew that poor people and black people lived in this area. And it’s like, as you said, it’s probably why the came to the Grand for the prices. We came for the thrill of the horror movies or the 3-D. But, I remember the black kids sat in the balcony. It was just segregated. But it was fun, it was a great place to come, it’s one of our childhood memories a place to go and watch movies. As teenager we did go, I went the Capital, probably more than I came down here, I don’t remember coming down here on dates, dates.

HAY: So, was there a different energy of people here, having fun, I mean was it more raucous, was it more… do you remember anything like that?

CLARK: I remember this being noisier. That’s’ why I’m wondering if, at the Capital, I remember having ushers that actually wore a uniform. The pants, the jacket, maybe with the gold braid and the buttons and a little hat, at the Capital. I cannot remember that about the Grand. And they could have been here, but I may not have remembered that. It seems to me that the Grand was noisier than at the Capital. If you were going to see a movie that you really wanted to see, then you would not want to come to the Grand, because there would be people talking, and you wouldn’t be able to enjoy it like you would at the Capital. I do remember that part. But other than I don’t recall any other memories, other than if you were the very first to be seated in the audience, the Grand had big drapes, velvet drapes that would be closed when you would go in. And the lights would be not at full lighting, but it would be a little dim. And then as the feature would start, then the drapes would start to open up and then this would come on before the cartoons would. And we had fun cartoons, not violent cartoons. They try to make us think they were violent. But I don’t know if we were more realist back then, that what the kids are today, but we knew that the, we never looked at the Road Runner as being violent. But we had one of my very favorite cartoons was Caspar the Friendly Ghost. What was yours? Do you remember?

DOWNEY: I remember, I liked the Road Runner and Popeye cartoons. And they had… there was another I was trying to think of… oh, Woody Woodpecker. Pecking that Woody Woodpecker out. [she gestures pecking]

CLARK: And I liked Sylvester and Tweety Bird. I liked those.

DOWNEY: They were fun cartoons

CLARK: Yeah, they were.

DOWNEY: They had news reels too.

CLARK: Yes, they would let us know what was going on throughout the world.

DOWNEY: With the news reel.

CLARK: And then, before they would show the movies, then, what was it, the one that would, I’m trying to think, was it Universal, that she kind of reminded you of a statue of liberty, this real pretty figure and she was standing holding, like a torch or something.

DOWNEY: I remember something like that.

CLARK: It was real elaborate. I mean, you knew that you needed to start quietening down, because the movie was getting read to start. I’m trying to think, there was one that would have the lights, like at an airport. Lights would be going in different directions, before that particular feature would start. I’m sorry, MGM.

DOWNEY: MGM with the lion, was probably

CLARK: And that, like you said, the lion would growl, but you knew. Either the lady, or the lion or the lights flickering back and forth, you knew that the movie was getting ready to start. So, you needed to get your refreshments if you had the money, to buy refreshments. A lot of times, I would go to Magee’s Bakery and would get one of those sticky buns and would take it into the movie with me. They didn’t seem to mind back then. You would walk in with a sack, well they didn’t know if you’ve been shopping, or what, so I don’t think they ever questioned you back then…

DOWNEY: They didn’t.

CLARK: … about what you were bringing in.

DOWNEY: The popcorn was in little boxes, about eight inches tall, square, two inches, square, just those little boxes, is what I remember.

HAY: Was it just salt? Salted? Did they have that gooey butter?

DOWNEY: And they were all fixed and lined up.

CLARK: it was fixed.

DOWNEY: And you put in your dime, or your nickel, or whatever…

CLARK: …and then they would hand it to you.

DOWNEY; I remember eating popcorn, I don’t remember eating, I don’t remember the candy as much.

CLARK: I would always buy mine.

DOWNEY: Really, we just came for the movie. Mainly. We didn’t come to much…

CLARK: Yeah, that was our entertainment.

HAY: So would you be here from the… when you had the newsreel, you had the cartoon, and then the feature, would you be here for two hours, three hours?

CLARK: Sometimes, if it was a movie that I really liked, I would stay and watch it over again. See, it wouldn’t end, it was a continuous, until the theatre closed that evening at whatever time that was. They played all day long from the time that it started it ran all day long. Nonstop.

HAY: So was this Saturday and Sunday sort of?

CLARK: Saturday and Sunday. Didn’t come a lot on Sunday. Our church did not like us to come the movie, period. But, we did. We did. My mother at that time, was not as involved… she sent us to church, but she did not go. So it wasn’t a big issue with her. So, we could go on Sunday, even though the church didn’t like for us to do that.

HAY: So other families in the church, their kids wouldn’t be allowed to go to movies. At any of the theatres?

CLARK: No,

HAY: Do you remember the same thing?

DOWNEY: Yes, I remember, we went to… Sunday was family day. We went to church, and we went to church in the country, because we had moved into town when I was ten. But I don’t remember ever being able to go to the movies on Sunday. It was not, the thing… it wasn’t the thing to do. We just, because we went to church Sunday morning and Sunday night. So you didn’t really have time to go to the movies.

HAY: And you probably had a big meal in between too.

CLARK: Oh, yes you did. I went to Sunday morning, I went to church Sunday night, and I still went to the movie during the daytime.

DOWNEY: I don’t remember ever going on Sunday growing up.

CLARK: Provided it was not, a lot of times, the features would be the same on Saturday and Sunday. So it wasn’t like we went every Saturday and every Sunday. Because, like I said, sometimes the features didn’t change until like Monday. And then they would maybe play all through the week and then on Friday then it would change again, and then you would have the weekend, So, if we saw it on Saturday, then of course we wouldn’t go back on Sunday.

HAY: And you may have seen it twice on Saturday if you really liked it.

HAY: You had started to bring up this babysitter idea.

DOWNEY: Right, the parents would give them, gosh, if they had the money, fifty cents, maybe. And kids would be here all day long. You didn’t have to worry about your child. Children would just come in and watch movies all day. That would be their…

HAY: it was safe…

DOWNEY: it was safe… but you could not leave… if you were caught out walking, you would get in trouble, I’m sure, but they were pretty safe…. Fun thing to do.

HAY: I guess I’ll ask you first, Judy. Tell me a little about the lore of the Grand, there were rumors about the way it was, people say, oh, you brought up the rats. What is some of the lore of the Grand that’s not necessarily true, but it’s what you were told or what the impressions people had of it. The rats was the one…

CLARK: Well, see that was not a real issue with me because I don’t remember that part. Now, I do recall that I would sit in the chair with my feet up. Now whether that I’m just not remembering that, one of my co-workers remembers that. But, the only thing that I really recall is that it was a pretty place to be on the inside, but the people that went there were kind of shaky. But other than that. I just really do not remember anything else about it. As a matter of fact, I never even ran into the blacks. Well, when I was a child we referred to them as coloreds. I never ever saw a colored, so they must have had their own entrance, their own exit. And that could have been another reason, maybe, why that we weren’t to come here. Because maybe my mother did not have the knowledge maybe thought we were all together. I don’t know what she thought. We never ever discussed this, we were just told we couldn’t go there. And as a child, you know, that part of children has never changed. You tell a child they can’t do something and then that just intrigues them and fascinates them more and so you wanted to do it. But that’s all that I remember. And as a child, I never had any colored friends because, we were segregated and but when I got to high school, then we had some, a few kids that went to Franklin County. I had attended city schools all my life but then we moved into a district where that it threw me into county so for two years I went to Franklin County, in 60 and 61, then we moved back into the city limits and then I went back to the city schools and graduated from Frankfort High in 62 and 63 and I have some wonderful, wonderful black friends.

HAY: So Franklin County was all white?

DOWNEY: There were two or three.

CLARK: I have been told this, that there was a study from what used to be called Rosenwald School and they took a select group of, I’ll refer, do you prefer I use the old terminology or the new terminology?

HAY: You choose.

CLARK: black. There was a group of black kids that were sought out and made to come to Franklin County. And I just heard this, just three weeks ago. A group of my friends that I made at county, we meet once a month. And they were telling me this. And I said, well that is interesting, I did not know that. And we were talking about what nice people that they were. They were educated, like that one group that came, their parents were teachers, professors, one of them, at Kentucky State, it was called Kentucky State College back then, later made into a University. But I did not realize that, but then when I went to Frankfort High. It was different because these kids actually lived in the surrounding areas. And once again, very, very nice people, just loved them to death.

HAY: And this would have been the years of 59, 60, 61, 62.

CLARK: Now, I graduated in 63, I went to County in 60 and 61 and to Frankfort High in 62 and 63. But there was a difference with the black… at county, we just spoke to one another. And when we had our dances, they would come, and they would be in the back. They never interacted. Now, at Frankfort High, we got a little risky. And some of would even dance together. And that was a no-no back then. But there was anyone else attending these dances, it wasn’t like it was open to the public. These were closed dances that we had at Frankfort High that we had like after a ball game. It wasn’t like going to a sock-hop that was county-wide that anybody, that was in a public place, like up at Juniper Hill or maybe at the VFW, where the whole community would come. They would never come. But when it was something involved just the individual school. Then they would come.

HAY: Very interesting. That was such a time of transition.

CLARK: Oh, yes, I can remember riding the bus. My mother, she was a widow at a very young age. My father drowned in the Kentucky River when I was two years old. And my sister was nine months old. So, we did not have a vehicle, so, when we would go to the grocery, we would maybe ride the city bus, and get maybe a taxi cab to bring us home to unload the groceries. Unless it was, she was just buying a few groceries on a particular time and each one of could carry a sack. And then we would take the city transportation. But it was something. I can remember if a black was on the bus, they sat in the very, very back. And you know, this is so cruel, when I watch all of the movies that they have made about this period of time, it just breaks my heart. And I know how frustrated that the young blacks, how they become, because I know how it upsets me. But then we have to stop and think, that this, we do not treat the blacks of today like the blacks when I was a child was treated. And it just bothers me that they get so upset, we all would get upset if we think about where our forefathers have been, and our relatives, but you can’t look back. I mean we have to remember where we have come from, but we have to remember how far we have come and where we are today. And the black friends that I have, I daresay, I could call upon them at any given time and they would be there for me. So, we’ve come a long way. A long way since I was a child.

HAY: Janie, what, along those same lines of high school and where you went and along these same lines, what would you like to talk about.

DOWNEY: As far as the river rats went, I think during the ’37 flood, it flooded… [interruption]

HAY: Tell me what you were starting to say.

DOWNEY: I believe, was it the ’37 flood? Flooded downtown Frankfort, which of course, when it receded, just imagine, there left rats in a lot of these buildings. So, our parents grew up hearing about the rats in downtown Frankfort. And I don’t know if that’s where it came from our not. But, Mother did not want us to come down here because of the rats. It had nothing to do with the black people sitting up in the balcony. They were even, though, which is awfully sad to think back, but that was the only place they could go. And I was never around any black children growing up. There was an instance with my uncle. We were on Broadway, right down from here. And sitting in the car waiting for my mother and a black man went by and he called him the bad name that we were never to use and the black man told him he was going to cut his ears off, and I remember being scared, a little bit, of black people at that point. And I was a very young child at that time. But, when I went to high school, it was the first time that the black children were at the high school. I made friends and they were very nice. And I remember one young man. He cut up a lot and he was the class clown and we all just loved him. That was, and I graduated in1964, Franklin County, I went there my entire high school. But, we were still, the Grand was still taboo as far as coming down here to go to the movies. I was never told why. I never did know, exactly, why. Except that certain families went to the Capital and certain families came here. I don’t even know. We were from middle class families so we weren’t uppity or anything like that, so. I never could figure out the reason. We would come when we wanted to. We have had a lot of fun in both theatres in town and Frankfort was a great place to grow up in. The people were nice and we didn’t have to worry about crime. It’s today, has a lot more things going on, involved, as far as downtown Frankfort than it did when we were children. I do know that the circus came into town and it would go up Broadway. They had the little ice cream cart that they would push along. And we were talking the other day about the ice cream man that drove the little wagon….

CLARK: Tony Poppa

DOWNEY: ice cream for a nickel. A cone of ice cream, the best ice cream in town, you know. But, then I remember standing there watching the circus come through town, and it was, the animals were in the cars. Now, as a child, they might have been on track. It might have been a circus drawn, on the railroad track.

CLARK: On the train.

DOWNEY: On the train, that might be what I’m remembering. Or maybe our class from school came in to see it. Something like that. So, but now, Frankfort does have a lot… we’re getting more involved in keeping the old look. The buildings intact and everything. And I have thought, time and time again, that I wish they had done this with the Capital Theatre and not built, not tore it down and built a new building. But, this is going to be wonderful. I don’t know your future plans. But I imagine you’re going to do movies and open it up as a theatre. So, we look forward to that.

HAY: It’ll be movies, and concerts and plays and shows, whatever everybody wants. It’s for everybody.

DOWNEY: It’ll be wonderful. That’s what we need. We need that.

HAY: Do you remember when you were both younger, Frankfort, Downtown Frankfort was very vibrant with shopping, it had all the shops and everything. Tell me about, we’ll just start with you, Judy, tell me about that transition, what happened with downtown, what changed, because that would have been as you were coming of age and growing up.

CLARK: Of course, the highlight would be to go to Lexington on the bus. Downtown Lexington. But that only took place, like Christmastime. But, it’s funny that you should ask that, because we were talking about this. I recall that, and I don’t know where I was living at this time, but on St. Clair Street there was over on the opposite side from the Grand, down across from Selbert’s jewelers, there was a pool hall. So, with pool, there’s drinking of men and no women that I know of would have ever gone in there. But mother did not want us walking on that side of the street. Because the men would be outside smoking, they had probably been inside drinking. And would call out vulgarities to you. So, there was Horn Drug Store was down where Serafini restaurant is. So, if we happened to be on the other side, then we would cross over and go to Horn Drug and then there was a real small, it was like a shotgun restaurant. It was called Kitty Hawk or Night Hawk or some kind of a restaurant where, once again, it was like, they served just hamburgers, hotdogs, well, women, you couldn’t go in there either. And then right next to that was what was called the Fair Store, and so we would go in there and do some shopping. So if you wanted to get back over there, you couldn’t, or if you wanted to go to Marcus Furniture store or Marcus jewelry store, what else was on there, then you would have to cross over, because you weren’t supposed to walk in front of that pool hall. But, as I got older, we would do that because I would just stay on that side of the street, because there was a men’s clothing store, that once I started dating, that I would go in there and buy my boyfriend a shirt, or a tie. I remember working really hard to buy a shirt that was $5 back then.

HAY: You shopped and shopped.

CLARK: Shopped and shopped. And it was called the Hub. And so in order to get to that. And then I thought, I’m big now, I can do this. Just ignore them. Where as a child, I guess it was very frightening and then my mother didn’t want to listen to it, so we would on the other side of the street. Oh, downtown Frankfort was wonderful. I, like I had told you earlier, I would walk all over, all the utilities back then, you could walk and pay. You had Columbia Gas and you had the telephone company and you had the Frankfort Water Plant Board. Well, I would just walk and pay my aunt’s bills for her and she would give me a quarter and sometimes even fifty cents! I was a hoarder and I would save my money, where my sister was a spendthrift, she would spend it the minute she’d get it. I would go into Woolworths and shop. Go into J.J. Newberry’s and they had candy, they had these big candy counters, that they would just lift the… they were all displayed in kind of a u shape and they would have fresh roasted nuts that you could smell cooking and I would buy, the candy that I loved the, oh, back then, I still like it now, it’s called nut goodies and when you would get that when that was warm, oh my goodness, oh, they were little round caramels, like maple-nut and then they had a caramel top to them. And the were so good and then you had Penney’s and that was a great place to shop. I liked going upstairs. We had a Sears. We had a Belk-Simpsons, which was straight up Main Street, right down from where our State Journal used to be, the local newspaper. And then we had…

DOWNEY: Was there a Lerner shop?

CLARK: What? A Lerner’s. Lehrmanns. If you went straight down St. Clair there was a Miss Brown. There was a Katherine shop. Now, that I never shopped in until I started working. Because the clothing was a little more expensive. But I did shop at like Penney’s and we did shop at Lehrmann’s and at Sears. And then if you went back to the corner of Main Street and St. Clair, then on the right hand side, there was a children’s shop. I cannot remember what was on the very corner, but right up from then wasw Mucci’s restaurant, loved that. I even remember the sit down strike from Kentucky State. But there was, back to the stores, there was a Beans children’s clothing and it had showcase windows out in the front. And out in the front of this, and I why that I’m remember this, I don’t know, but there was a horse. That you could put a nickel in and ride it and the horse would move. Something like some of the horses that you see going into Wal Mart and some of those stores. And across the street from there was Capital Fashion. I bought a lot of clothes there. Sidney Bean owned that. And then right on the corner, where Nitro is now, was Hudson’s. Farmer Hudsons, and that was a great place to shop too. But Farmer Hudson’s was more expensive and the Katherine shop was more expensive too.

DOWNEY: What’s the shoe shop?

CLARK: Adam’s. Adams Shoes and Mayor’s shoes.

DOWNEY: And then Pal’s had a restaurant.

CLARK: Mayor’s I think even still has the sign up on the side of the building. Saying Mayor’s Shoes.

HAY: Was that Main?

CLARK: Yes, that was on Main Street. And years ago, Cecil Powell used to have a restaurant up here besides Scott’s Furniture and I think it even had a bowling alley in that.

DOWNEY: Upstairs

CLARK: He was a boxer.

DOWNEY: We weren’t allowed up there.

CLARK: No, we wouldn’t be.

DOWNEY: My aunt worked, I think for him sometimes.

CLARK: But then, he later, the traffic wasn’t like what it was, I guess, years ago. So, then he moved down, where he, it’s now called Marshalls. And that was Pal’s restaurant. He and his wife, Jenny, ran that for, I guess until they retired or died.

DOWNEY: They were so sweet.

CLARK: I haven’t lived in Frankfort for 33 years, I live in Versailles now. So, this is, I’m really racking my brain to remember all of this. Oh, and I mean, you used to be able to, right down, when I was a child, on Lewis Street, you had Guidi’s and that was G-U-I-D-I and an apostrophe S food market and vegetables. You would go there and get all of your fresh fruits and vegetables. And opposite that corner ws a dry goods store called Lutemyers (sp?) and they had another one up the street, there was, and I cannot remember, there was a restaurant called the Home Restaurant. Pelosi? Or something like that. Do you remember that Pat? I cannot think, but it was something like that?

HAY: Now, Janie, we know that Judy was living downtown and were you living in town or in the county?

DOWNEY: I lived, it was the county, Thorn Hill, which is, what five miles, not even, three miles.

CLARK: Out Holmes Street

DOWNEY: Out Holmes Street

CLARK: Do you know where Holmes Street is?

DOWNEY: You go out Holmes Street and at the end of Holmes Street is Thorn Hill. I lived there.

HAY: So was that like a neighborhood or was it like the country?

DOWNEY: No, a neighborhood, like a big subdivision of white frame houses. The bus came down, we could catch the bus into town any time. We might have to walk to catch it, down to Holmes Street, which was seven blocks. But…

HAY: So, you had access to downtown in a similar way.

DOWNEY: So, I remember all the stores Judy mentioned. I remember Newberry’s. We would, maybe with a girlfriend that lived at the corner, of my street would come with me. I remember, the girls, we would go into Newberry’s. They had a soda fountain and they had a, their merchandise was in a box, wooden cases, and I can remember when Elvis was popular we would come and get the little diaries with Elvis on it and bracelets and different things and necklaces and things inside Newberry’s.

HAY: How old would you have been?

DOWNEY: Ten, eleven, Hound Dog came out when I was ten, so, it was around that time. So, I remember. Another thing we did a lot. I know Judy’s... she’s remembered it, but she forgotten to mention it, was the YMCA.

CLARK: oh yeah.

DOWNEY: On the corner. We went skating. They had. As much as we could go skating, we would go skating over there. They had this one, huge room, I guess the guys in town, the city kids played basketball there too. And but they had pipes, the pipes along the wall and you’d skate and hit one and they were hot. They were, the hot water, I guess the hot water flowed through it, I don’t know.

CLARK: I’m sure it was for the heat, yeah.

DOWNEY: We had a lot of fun at the Y, going skating. The other stores, like I said I remember all that she talked about, Woolworths, and Newberry’s were a lot of fun. They had the trinkets it was like going to, now, Navy, that’s not even like Wal Marts. I don’t know where you find… a dime store is nothing like this. I don’t know where you would find, there’s Woolworth’s still, I think there’s one, there used to be one in Louisville, off US 60. I’m not sure if it’s down there or not. Maybe a dollar store, now. You could go maybe and find some of the things you would find in dime stores.

CLARK: Probably, probably.

DOWNEY: They’re a dollar today.

CLARK: But I remember Woolworth’s had the old, old wooden floors. It was like going back in time for us, as children. That’s the way I can remember it.

DOWNEY: And they were waxed, you could smell that smell.

CLARK: And it even had a, years ago, they didn’t put polyurethane, they used some kind of an oil, that they oiled the floors with. And that’s what I can remember about Woolworths.

DOWNEY: I can remember that too.

CLARK: J.J. Newberry’s was newer than the old Woolworth and it had the wood doors that would kind of swing-like, when you were going in like, and I’m sure they probably latched up at the top or at the bottom to make them stationary, but you could just kind of push on them, they weren’t revolving doors, they were just, there wasn’t a facing that like closed them together.

HAY: They went both ways.

CLARK: Right, so it would go both ways.

HAY: Both doors.

CLARK: Right, both doors, you could be going in this one and someone could be coming out on the other side of you. [laughter]

HAY: Were they all wooden? Solid wood or did they have glass?

CLARK: No, seems like to me they had some glass on them.

DOWNEY: I think they had glass. I remember glass.

CLARK: And then Newberry’s seemed like to me that theirs was like metal. It was more modern.

DOWNEY: The old Sears had the wooden floors and Penney’s did too. Upstairs, the women’s clothing was upstairs at Penney’s. And I can remember going up there to buy a dress or something at Penney’s and they had wooden, the floors were all wooden, that I can remember. Do you remember that upstairs at Penney’s? And all the furniture stores, gosh, they had furniture, I never could figure out how they got it up there, like at Marcus.

CLARK: On those old freight elevators.

DOWNEY: In the back. Well, Sears had one too, the freight elevators. Because you go up these little stairs, that were not very wide

CLARK: Like the one to go up in the balcony.

DOWNEY: To go up to see each floor, the furniture stores. It was interesting.

HAY: What happened to downtown? Why did it change?

CLARK: Shopping centers. It just, that’s what’s happened to every downtown. And we only have two very small shopping centers. But there’s not enough trade. People would rather go into Lexington and because you can get better deals. The small business owner cannot offer you a 50% off, because they have all this overhead. Like you can if you go to Dillards. Because there’s Dillards throughout the United States. So, you can go up there and buy the very same thing, the very same brand, and get a discount.

DOWNEY: Fishell Drugs was downtown, and that’s where we’d go get our record albums. Records and that’s what I remember about it and drugs. And then we had Yagel’s hardward that was up and around the corner. I remember purchasing some glassware there. This was in the 60s, now when I got a little bit out of high school. But I remember K-Mart in Lexington. The first K-Mart. That’s when everything went together in one store. You could buy anything you wanted in one store. So, why would you go to the shoe store and then go from the shoe store to the clothing store and then from the clothing store…. And even now to the drug store… and food.

CLARK: Just growth.

HAY: When you think of a Wal Mart now, it’s really the downtown of a city center of the old days all under a giant roof. And a similar crowd, everybody’s there.

CLARK: And you do not have…. I can recall when I first moved to Versailles, 33 years ago, and one of my most memorable Christmas was when I was shopping on Christmas Eve, there was snow. I love snow, Pat can’t stand it, and the snow was, and I was shopping at Ben Franklin, I had to go and get a layaway out for my kids and it reminded me, because, my very favorite movie, is the Christmas story with… and I’m having a senior moment.

HAY: “It’s a Wonderful Life”

CLARK: That is my favorite. I like that and then I like the one with…

DOWNEY: 34th Street

CLARK: Christopher Reeves, that “Somewhere in Time.” That’s why I love with this Grand… I’m like Janie, I would have more memories at the Capital than I do here at the Grand, but I’m glad that whoever’s doing this has selected the Grand because I love that name. That brings back memory in that movie, “Somewhere in Time.”

DOWNEY: The Grand Hotel.

CLARK: Yes, the Grand Hotel.

DOWNEY: Grand, that’s a good name.

CLARK: So, I can’t think of another thing, sweetheart, and I’ve probably told you more than what you even wanted to know.

HAY: But I have a couple of little questions. One is if you would both tell me what you think the role of arts in a community is. Arts being movies, concerts, community theatre, plays, traveling shows.

CLARK: You know, I think that the sad part about it. The kids of today have more opportunities than we ever had as a child growing up. If you weren’t into sports, then you just weren’t into anything. And there were people, some of my friends, that had been given piano lessons. But they didn’t have opportunities to ever really do anything, maybe the wealthy did. But the average run of the mill person did not have an opportunity to do anything with that. So, I love having an arts center here in Frankfort. In Woodford County, every community needs to have one. Because you’re not going to know in Fayette County what Woodford County has to offer. Unless they were some big movie star or something. But for a young child who has this ability in them, has this gift to paint, to play the piano, to act, anything that comes to the arts. I just think its wonderful and I think the community is doing themselves an injustice by not getting involved and starting one.

HAY: What do you think about the arts and community?

DOWNEY: I’d say “ditto.” It’s true, we need, every community needs a place where children can grow in the arts. The schools do offer drama and different courses where the kids can act on stage and things like that, but a community center where they can come and view old movies. I know they have in Louisville a place where everyone, the artists, painters, come into town and they hang up all their, and they view the artwork of the area. And plays, a play would be great, to have a place where you can enjoy a community play. And have it so a lot of people can get involved. And get the community involved in it. That’s it. Getting the community involved is the key to this. There are a lot of people that don’t like things like this. But there’s a big percentage that do. So, it’s getting the community involved. Or having a raffle, or whatever you plan on doing to get this going. But it’s I think it’s a wonderful idea.

HAY: I was just going to comment, of course, on when you all were growing up you had televisions, but just barely.

CLARK: Just barely. It was a very small and black and white.

HAY: But think about how far that’s come. And now, part of the reason people don’t go out to movies and out to the theatre as much or out to see their friends or dinner parties is because everyone sits at home watching television.

CLARK: And that’s sad.

HAY: And you don’t have the sense of community without that and I think that’s what I felt, doing these interviews here the last couple of weeks, I realize how people felt how they belonged together when they got here. They were with their friends, they were with their family they were with the community and whether it’s here or whether it’s the Capital Theatre….

CLARK: Right, exactly what you’re talking about, yes, you had that feeling of belonging.

DOWNEY: We still have, both Judy and I, friends that we went to high school and we’ve had reunions with and get togethers, lunches and things. So the community is still together, around here, it’s just getting people involved in it. Because there’s a lot of people who would enjoy doing things like that, here.

CLARK: You know the sad part is that we had such a wonderful time to be born in. I mean, we have been able to witness… and I know other people have too. But, I mean, we’ve been able to witness things that we would never be able to do. And as a child, I never had anything. I was probably considered poor. But we were happy. You had a sense, like you were saying, a sense of belonging. We may not have had material things, we dressed as well as any body else. But we had love and we had food and we had shelter. The kids of today, the point I’m trying to make, they don’t know how well they have it. Because they have all of these golden opportunities. I was in… I was great… I’m just going to brag on myself for a moment, but in our senior play at Frankfort High. We had a small… we only had about 76 people in my graduating class. And I played Lady Macbeth, loved that. Absolutely loved it. And I had a quick memory back then, not so quick today. But and I could learn those parts and I loved it. Well, I never had the opportunity to go on and make something of that. And I was a great dancer back then. I could have been a dancer. But I never had the opportunity that kids today have and that’s what really saddens me. Is that they’re exposed to all of this and don’t take advantage of it. Do not take advantage of it. I love the thought that when I grew up as a child, I did not have to sit in front of that TV.

DOWNEY: We weren’t allowed to.

CLARK: That was the least that we would even think about, I didn’t probably even watch any TV until maybe I Love Lucy came on after I’d have my bath and had to go to bed at a certain time. But we would go outside and play kick the can, jump rope or play jacks or whatever… red rover red rover, we dared whoever over. Just, we made up our own games and we were talking about how we would sit in the grass and take clover and make bracelets

DOWNEY: …and necklaces and look for four leaf clovers for hours.

CLARK: Kids don’t have that closeness that what we had in growing up. And it’s really sad.

HAY: Your imaginations are so utilized when you’re playing like that.

CLARK: And we would have funerals. [laughter] If we found a bird we would bury that bird, I mean, nowadays, your parents would say, “oh, you didn’t dare to touch that, it may have that virus… or…

DOWNEY: lice or something.

CLARK: …back then and we probably had a sack lunch and probably after we handled that bird we probably had our peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I mean, honey, we could keep you all day long. We could… [laughter] Now, Pat, you’re talking about somebody, if she would only allow you to interview her.

HAY: We’ll do a little audio, just a little audio.

CLARK: You have to tell her something, please. Come on.

HAY: Are you still hanging in there [talking to Pat Stewart who is sitting off camera]

DOWNEY: Listen, some of the things that her and sisters…

CLARK: And her sister and her father. I mean…. They are a hoot, we still laugh.

DOWNEY; Her father worked on the dome on the New Capitol.

HAY: All right, we’re going to do you next.

DOWNEY: Tell them a few things.

HAY: I know a couple of questions I want to ask you. It’ll be about ten minutes, but I want to finish with these guys first. I have to backtrack to one little thing that you mentioned that went by quickly, and then I want you both to give me kind of your family trees, the names of your families, so we have them for the record. But, the thing that slipped by very quickly, actually I’m going to have to switch tapes, you quickly mentioned that you remembered the KSU sit in at Mucci’s and I don’t know what that is.

CLARK: Well see, Mucci’s, the blacks were not allowed to eat in any of these downtown restaurants. Remember them eating? And so, I think that all of their restaurants were down in this Bottom, that we have referred to. But they could never eat in downtown. Well, they staged a sit-down at Mucci’s and they would not leave. I just… there’s not really any more to it. It’s just that.

HAY: Do you remember seeing them? How old were you?

CLARK: Oh, yeah, I was probably, in high school at that time. Maybe, I may have been at Franklin County at that time. You would have to get the historical dates, I know it was in the 60s.

HAY: How long did it last?

CLARK: Oh, goodness, I don’t know if it was, it was probably an all day event.

HAY: A one…

CLARK: A one day thing. Probably because I’m sure that they were probably hauled out, you know, after they wouldn’t leave and then they were forced to leave and then whenever Martin Luther had his march on the White House, then that’s when everything started integrating, so….

HAY: What do you remember your parents saying or you feeling when that happened.

CLARK: You know, my mother never said a great deal about it. And she never had any problem with us having black friends. So that’s why I’m wondering if she ever even knew that they were at the Grand. I don’t know all of that.

HAY: Do you remember the sit-in?

DOWNEY: I remember around that time, when we went out on dates or went out with a girlfriend, whatever, we would go at the top of East Main, past the Kentucky State College was Frisch’s Restaurant and past that was Jerry’s so we would, that was our thing, we’d go up there and it was outside. The girls came outside and took your order. And at that time, I remember my Dad coming in one night and saying that’s the last time you’re going to go anywhere with a bunch of girls in the car. And I remember asking why and he said because now the black kids are asking the white girls out. Now, where he heard this, I don’t know. He was a mechanic at the distillery for thirty-five years at Stagg Distillery and of course, they all talked, I’m sure. And I remember him coming in and from that point on, I was probably a junior in ’63 and so from ’63 on, I could go out on dates, but I wasn’t allowed to run around with girlfriends.

HAY: In the car, separate, by yourselves, without…

CLARK: See, I don’t remember if this was the same time as the sit-in took place but I remember a building burning up at Kentucky State.

DOWNEY: It could be all around the same time. It’s all this sort of…

CLARK: They could not eat at any of the restaurants and I remember being downtown that day and…. But we always loved, when we had the Christmas parades, you always wanted to stay until Kentucky State performed. Because those girls and that drum major, oh, would they put on a show.

DOWNEY: They were good, I remember that. I remember how good they were.

CLARK: Oh, yes they were. They were wonderful.

1: 1:00END OF TAPE 0015JTH_DV

�PAGE �

�PAGE �5�