Oral History Interview with Johnny Greene Part 1

Partial Transcript: Let me just . . . start just by asking for a little biographical information, just about you, where you're from, where you were born?

Segment Synopsis: Greene was born and raised in Sandy Hook, Kentucky, in Elliott County. Greene attended Morehead State University and served in the U.S. Navy. Greene then returned to Sandy Hook and owned and managed a movie theatre building. Greene also mentions that he was personal friends with Kentucky Highway Commissioner and Combs' close associate John A. Keck in Sandy Hook. Greene recalls when he first met Combs at Keck's home in 1957. Keck encouraged Combs to run for governor after his unsuccessful campaign in 1955. Keck wrote a speech for Combs to deliver at the Sandy Hook Kiwanis Club. Greene served in the Kentucky General Assembly House of Representatives from 1956 to 1958, stepping down from the legislature to work in the Combs administration.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Earle Clements; Commissioner of Highways; John A. Keck; 1955 gubernatorial campaign; Movie theatres; Sandy Hook Kiwanis Club; 1959 gubernatorial campaign

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Sandy Hook (Ky.); Elliott County (Ky.); Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Morehead State University; Politicians; United States. Navy; World War II; State governments; Lawrence County (Ky.); Clements, Earle C. (Earle Chester), 1896-1985; Friendship; Kentucky. Department of Highways; Kentucky. General Assembly; World War II; Veterans; Speeches; Education

Partial Transcript: And then of course, I went into his office. --Uh--I guess they call them an administrative assistant . . .

Segment Synopsis: Greene worked as an administrative assistant to Combs during the 1959 gubernatorial campaign. Greene traveled to every county in Kentucky during the eighteen month campaign. Greene is unsure how he was selected for the job, but he received a phone call from Combs offering him the position. Greene was able to work full-time on the campaign in place of Barclay Sturgill, a Louisville attorney who did not have as much time to devote to campaign work. Upon arriving at Combs' campaign headquarters in Louisville, Greene was surprised that the office was very small and did not have working telephones. Greene says that about a week after he started, John Keck arrived and paid for office telephones to be installed, since the Combs campaign was lacking in funds at the time.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Campagining; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; John A. Keck; Barclay Sturgill; Campaign office; Telephones; Campaign finance

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Governors; Work; Administrative assistants; Lawyers; Travel; Counties; Telephone; Louisville (Ky.); Kentucky. General Assembly; Budget; Money

Partial Transcript: First of all, you say it was out of the clear, did you ever figure out why he called you?

Segment Synopsis: Greene thinks that a friend of his in the Kentucky General Assembly may have recommended him to Combs for the position of administrative assistant, especially since the two men were in the anti-Chandler wing of the Kentucky Democratic Party. Greene also attributes his relative youth (he was forty) and likeable personality as reasons for why he was picked by Combs to be his administrative assistant.

Keywords: Bert Combs; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Happy Chandler; Factions

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Governors; Kentucky. General Assembly; Administrative assistants; Legislators; Chandler, Happy, 1898-1991; Personality

Partial Transcript: Why did you go with him?

Segment Synopsis: Greene joined Combs' 1959 gubernatorial campaign in part because of his mother's strong anti-Chandler stance. When Greene was sixteen his father died and left behind a general store with many debts. Greene says that the county owed the family around $30,000 in unpaid bills since his father often picked up the tab for struggling customers. Greene's mother became a strong supporter of Governor Ruby Laffoon when he introduced a state sales tax and the family began receiving payments from the county. When Governor Chandler repealed the state sales tax in 1936, it hurt Greene's family financially. Greene's mother also supported Tom Ray in the 1935 gubernatorial primary because he was for keeping the statewide sales tax. Greene did not know Combs personally before joining the gubernatorial campaign staff and needed to make more contacts throughout the state. Greene explains that John A. Keck was the more seasoned staffer when it came to making inroads with county leaders and politicians. This dynamic caused Keck to have a more stationary job function, fielding telephone calls at campaign headquarters in Louisville from his many contacts statewide, while Greene traveled extensively throughout the Commonwealth building professional and social networks for Combs.

Keywords: Happy Chandler; Bert Combs; Factions; Democrats; Ruby Laffoon; Tom Ray; Barclay Sturgill; Connections; John A. Keck; Commissioner of Highways

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Governors; Kentucky. General Assembly; Childhood; Father; Death; Chandler, Happy, 1898-1991; Mother; Sandy Hook (Ky.); Elliott County (Ky.); Sales tax; Laffoon, Ruby, 1869-1941; Stores; Debt; Local government; Counties; Ray, Thomas; Leadership; Politicians; State governments

Partial Transcript: When you first went to work for him . . . basically barely being paid I would guess.

Segment Synopsis: When Greene initially joined Combs' 1959 gubernatorial campaign, he was an unpaid administrative assistant. Greene says that Combs paid for his meals and hotel accommodations during this period. Greene recalls the early days of the campaign as being very hectic and encountering difficulties with staying on schedule. Greene remembers one instance in which John Keck was campaigning in Maysville while Combs and Greene went to the Fleming County Fair to hand out campaign literature. Keck showed up unexpectedly at the fair very intoxicated. Greene, being a relatively new employee, wanted to make a good impression on Combs and tried to prevent his friend Keck from interacting with Combs while he was so inebriated. As the three of them drove back to campaign headquarters in Louisville together, Combs warned Keck that he would no longer be permitted to be out in public intoxicated and had to modify his behavior until the democratic gubernatorial primary had occurred. Greene does not think that Keck was able to control his vices for the entire campaign season of around a year and a half. Greene also recalls when he had reached the financial limit to being an unpaid administrative assistant to Combs. The pair were making campaign stops using Greene's car without any reimbursements for gas and maintenance and he was accumulating debt on his grocery bills. In response to Greene's complaints, Combs took him to the Frankfort Country Club and an associate of Combs offered to pay him a salary of around $400 per month, which helped to begin resolving Greene's financial issues.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Expenses; Schedule; Speeding tickets; John A. Keck; Fleming County Fair; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Drunk; Expectations; Cars; Grocery bills; Frankfort Country Club (Frankfort, Ky.)

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Work; Administrative assistants; Staff; Travel; Money; Income; Food; Hotels; Crowds; Speeches; Mason County (Ky.); Flemingsburg (Ky.); Fleming County (Ky.); Fairs; Alcohol; Sandy Hook (Ky.); Intelligence; Elliott County (Ky.); Lawyers; Reputation; Louisville (Ky.); Maysville (Ky.); Mayors; Stress; Behavior; Telephone; Frankfort (Ky.); Budget; Credit cards; Salaries

Partial Transcript: See, we'd pull into these counties and towns . . .

Segment Synopsis: On a typical day of campaigning, Combs would give a speech to local leaders in the county and Greene would provide entertainment and food (without being reimbursed for this expense). During the eighteen month campaign, Greene says that they would travel for six or seven days a week working twelve hour days, running on about five hours of sleep. Greene observed that Combs was much more motivated and engaging in the 1959 gubernatorial campaign compared to his unsuccessful bid for governor in 1955. Greene remembers that Combs would frequently make unscheduled stops along the way to campaign events and talk with Kentuckians to get their perspectives.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Campaigns; Routines; Entertainment; Schedule; Driving; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Unscheduled stops

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Travel; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Local government; Speeches; Counties; Leadership; Money; Travel; Hotels; Telephone; Sleep; Motivation (Psychology); Determination (Personality trait)

Partial Transcript: So y'all really--uh--it was hard work for eighteen months.

Segment Synopsis: Greene says that the relentless pace of the 1959 gubernatorial campaign took a toll on him. Greene and Combs traversed the state and visited all of Kentucky's 120 counties. One particularly difficult situation was when Combs and Greene were planning to travel from Pikeville to Paducah. Combs and Greene met another staffer at the Pikeville airport and Combs suggested that he and the other staffer take the plane, while Greene drove the car. Combs did not take into consideration that Greene had already been driving for around twelve hours that day. Greene says that it took him about ten hours to drive to Paducah, since this was before the interstate highway system was constructed. Combs' wife has also pointed out that Combs is apt to overlook small details such as taking into consideration that Greene had been driving for so long that day when making the decision as to which staff member would drive the car out to Paducah.

Keywords: Campaigns; Campaigning; Bert Combs; Exhaustion; Cars; Driving; Sara Combs; 1959 gubernatorial campaign

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Travel; Counties; Local government; Pikeville (Ky.); Paducah (Ky.); Airplanes; Personality

Partial Transcript: But he started out a little stiff, and as time went on . . . while he could do it, he seemed limber enough . . . [it was] getting easier to [for] him.

Segment Synopsis: Greene thinks that Combs initially did not enjoy campaigning in 1959, but became more relaxed and accustomed to it as time went on. Greene views Combs as a political candidate with values and integrity, with Combs rarely resorting to personal attacks against his opponents. Greene recalls one instance when Combs made a lighthearted comparison of Happy Chandler to Fidel Castro following Chandler's decision to take two percent of all state employees' wages and create a surplus fund. Greene believes that Combs decided to reference Castro because he made the comment around the time that the Cuban Revolution was unfolding. Greene is unsure whether the state government employees ever got their money back, but expresses a dislike for Chandler, which was also shared by Combs.

Keywords: 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Campaigns; Campaigning; State government employees; Fidel Castro; Kentucky Democratic Party; Happy Chandler; Bert Combs

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Relaxation; Money; Integrity; Chandler, Happy, 1898-1991; State governments; Salaries; Castro, Fidel, 1926-; Taxes; Speeches

Partial Transcript: When you were driving, would he spent a whole lot of time just catching up on his rest or was he talkative then?

Segment Synopsis: On the campaign trail, Greene always drove while Combs used this time to rest and relax before the next stop on the tour. Greene says that Combs was similar to Alben Barkley in that both politicians did not use downtime on the campaign trail to prepare for events. Greene explains that Combs had already prepared for events the night before. Combs would listen to the advice of others, but Greene says that he would not follow advice he was uncomfortable with.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Driving; Cars; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Alben Barkley; Advice

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Travel; Counties; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Sleep; Relaxation; Speeches; Barkley, Alben William, 1877-1956; Administrative assistants

Partial Transcript: I--my sense would be that he was better--would have been better with small crowds than larger crowds, was that true?

Segment Synopsis: Green believes that Combs was a more effective campaigner when speaking to smaller crowds. A successful speech to people gathered around a country store in rural Hardin County solidified to the Combs campaign that he thrived in speaking to smaller crowds, since he had the opportunity to be more personable with the audience. Greene adds that Combs' personality allowed him to be comfortable talking with potential voters from diverse backgrounds and social classes. According to Greene, Combs was very analytical and had the ability to extract key information from other people without revealing information he wanted to keep private. Greene says that he only knows of one other person who has this uncanny ability to covertly analyze people.

Keywords: Bert Combs; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Campaigns; Campaigning; Country stores

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Administrative assistants; Staff; Intelligence; Crowds; Rural; Counties; Hardin County (Ky.); Cities; Personality; Speeches

Partial Transcript: Did you have any conflicts?

Segment Synopsis: Greene says that he did not have any major conflicts with Combs while working under him. Greene does recall one instance where Combs was angry with him. While Combs and Greene were driving back from a campaign stop in Bowling Green, their car ran out of gas. Greene accidentally forgot to fill up the car with gas before they had left Bowling Green. Combs was angry with Greene that he had made such a silly mistake. Later, Greene says that Combs learned an important lesson when they ran out of gas in Lexington on the way to meet a friend for lunch. Combs had also neglected to fill up the car with gas and realized that Greene had made an honest mistake back in Bowling Green when he had done the same thing.

Keywords: Bert Combs; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; Cars; Driving; Lunch

Subjects: Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Staff; Administrative assistants; Gas; Bowling Green (Ky.); Lexington (Ky.); Country clubs; Lawyers

Partial Transcript: . . . Did you ever do this with him again for example when he . . . ran against [Wendell] Ford?

Segment Synopsis: Greene was not involved in Combs' 1971 gubernatorial campaign against Wendell Ford. Combs lost the democratic primary to Wendell Ford. Early in the campaign, Greene remembers being in West Liberty for a funeral and was surprised at the small crowd that Combs drew at a campaign speech nearby. Greene thinks that Combs became a bit overconfident about his chances of winning the race and was concentrating too heavily on winning the approval of younger voters. Greene adds that there was poor communication between campaign headquarters in Louisville and potential campaign allies out in the field. Greene said that Combs continued to be an effective speaker, but the campaign was lacking in enthusiasm. Greene thinks that Combs should have focused more on local issues in each region of the Commonwealth and needed to re-establish connections with contacts he had made as governor back in the early 1960s. In Greene's view, Combs' personal life at the time may have contributed to him losing the race and not putting forth as much effort to win like he did in his successful gubernatorial campaign in 1959.

Keywords: United States. House of Representatives; Bert Combs; Congress; Wendell Ford; Barclay Sturgill; Appalachia; Eastern Kentucky; Image; Voters; Kentucky Women's Democratic Convention; Local issues; 1959 gubernatorial campaign; 1971 gubernatorial campaign

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Ford, Wendell H., 1924-; Politicians; Funerals; Hazard (Ky.); West Liberty (Ky.); Crowds; Speeches; Confidence; Appalachian Mountains; Young adults; Voting; Aging; Louisville (Ky.); Hotels; Communication; Marriage; Divorce

Partial Transcript: I know this would be conjecture on your part, but do you think maybe his personal life was--?

Segment Synopsis: Greene thinks that some of the advice given by Combs' ex-wife, Helen Rechtin, may have contributed to Combs losing the democratic nomination for governor in 1971. Greene says that she encouraged Combs to go after the young adult vote and to focus on voters in urban areas. According to Greene, Combs was angered by these suggestions, especially the notion that he was incapable of running a successful campaign in his native Appalachian region. Greene recalls that Rechtin was a bit abrasive with Combs, physically dragging him away from people he was talking with after a campaign dinner in Louisville.

Keywords: 1971 gubernatorial campaign; Bert Combs; Eastern Kentucky; Appalachia; Ex-wife; Helen Rechtin ​; Dinner; Young voters

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; Governors; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Speeches; Appalachian Mountains; Staff; Marriage; Divorce; Rural; Counties; Anger; Louisville (Ky.); Speeches; Young adults; Voting

Partial Transcript: Mabel was never happy as a--as a governor's wife, she just wasn't cut out for it.

Segment Synopsis: Greene believes that Combs' first wife, Mabel Hall, did not enjoy being a first lady. According to Greene, she did not like crowds or parties and preferred to keep to herself. Greene also thinks that Combs may have had a problem with her drinking alcohol. Greene went with Hall to pick out a dress for Governor Combs' inauguration and he remembers that she was very frugal and had a difficult time picking out a dress.

Keywords: Mabel Hall; Daughter; Lois Combs Weinberg; Governor's inauguration; Kentucky Governor's Mansion; Frugal

Subjects: Wives; Marriage; Divorce; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Interpersonal relations; Governors; Kentucky; Kentuckians; First ladies; State governments; Parties; Personality; Social; Dresses; Cincinnati (Ohio); Shopping; Louisville (Ky.); Fashion; Money; Alcohol

Partial Transcript: Did you--did you maintain a real close relationship when he--obviously you did, all throughout his gubernatorial years, right?

Segment Synopsis: While working for the Combs administration, Greene's office was next to Combs. Greene would accidentally overhear Combs' conversations frequently since he left his office door open. Greene describes himself as the staff troubleshooter who specialized in conflict resolution. Greene recalls a situation when a sheriff who did not want to support a local democratic candidate endorsed by Combs threatened Combs' staff with a knife. Greene's first experience with troubleshooting occurred in Calloway County. When trying to find a new party chairman for the county, the old party chairman began antagonizing his replacement. Please note that the tape cuts off in the middle of this segment.

Keywords: Bert Combs; Combs administration; John A. Keck; Campaign manager; Democrats; Kentucky Democratic Party; Factions; Harry Lee Waterfield

Subjects: Kentucky; Kentuckians; State governments; Combs, Bert T., 1911-1991; Frankfort (Ky.); Kentucky State Capitol (Frankfort, Ky.); Administrative assistants; Offices; Sheriffs; Elections; Loyalty; Threats; Violence; Knives; Meetings; Work; Calloway County (Ky.)