Interview with Kenneth Back

ANN COX: This is Ann Cox interviewing Kenneth Back on October 12, 2003.

KENNETH BACK: Do I get the same questions or what?

AC: [laughing] They’re the same, but I won’t ask them in the same way.

BACK: Oh, o.k.

AC: Could you just start out by telling me what year you were born?

BACK: What year I was born?

AC: Yeah.

BACK: May the 10th, 1946.

AC: And where were you born?

BACK: Hazard, Kentucky.

AC: Okay. How far away is Hazard?

BACK: About 35 miles.

AC: Can you describe the 1:00place you grew up in?

BACK The place I grew up in until I was nine years old we lived in the coal camp that was operated by (?) coal company. And we lived in a house that was provided by the company. A little four room (?) house with no indoor plumbing. We did have running water. And so for the first nine years I lived there and then there was a lot of problems with the union and so dad knew that he was going to get, probably the union was going to go on strike and so in preparation for that we moved from Perry County to Breathitt County. And we lived 2:00in a little house that was located on a farm that was owned by my grandfather and so my dad continued to work up there until the mines went on strike and then he quit…I guess when the mines went on strike he came back to Breathitt County and lived there. So from there until I guess the time I left to go to college I lived in Breathitt county.

AC: Where did you go to college?

BACK: Moorhead State.

AC: Is that where you met Blanche, or did you meet before that?

BACK No, we actually met while we were going to high school together and ironically her brother was my eighth grade teacher. So we were high school sweethearts.

AC: So did a lot of members of your family 3:00live in Breathitt county like your aunts and your uncles and your grandparents?

BACK: Most of my family lived in Breathitt County. The ones that hadn’t left to find work in the factories up north. The rest of them lived here.

AC: Did a majority of them move away?

BACK: Probably. Well, all of them, as a matter of fact, except maybe one or two stayed here.

AC: And did they stay here all of their lives? Those who stayed here?

BACK: The ones that remained did, yes. And the ones who moved away pretty much stayed there too, even after they retired. I had one uncle maybe who came back to an adjoining county after he retired.

AC: [long pause] 4:00Why do you think that the people who, those members of your family who have never left, why do you think they stayed in this area?

BACK: Why they never left? Well, I think in one case I had an uncle who never married, he sort of felt obligated to his parents. He stayed with them until they passed away so he was pretty much tied to his family. And the others; I guess the uncertainty of maybe 5:00moving away and being on their own, um, they chose to stay rather than do that. Breaking those family ties I guess was probably the biggest reason that they didn’t move.

AC: Do you think that if you had stayed instead of leaving you lived in, you lived in Virginia and where else did you say?

BACK: Kansas.

AC: Kansas. Did you say Virginia? And Florida. Okay. Did you say Virginia?

BACK: For a brief period of time.

AC: If you had stayed how do you feel, do you feel it would be, your life would be very different?

BACK: If I had stayed as opposed to moving? Oh absolutely.

AC: How would it have been different?

BACK: Uh, well I think those experiences that I would have missed uh, 6:00my life would have been very different, I would have looked at things from a different perspective, much more narrow than I do now. I think moving away at an early age, especially entering the military gave me a, a sense of confidence that I can probably wouldn’t have learned anywhere else. I grew up pretty much on my own, even here, not that I didn’t have family support, but uh, uh, that was, I was kind of a loner, an independent from the start and I couldn’t wait to leave home to try something on my own and there was always that curiosity to try to do better and 7:00do things I hadn’t done so I would have missed out on a lot if I had stayed here.

AC: What made you decide to come back here?

BACK: Well, I think two or three reasons. Of course one is; your heart I guess is always home, and, there’s always that sense of comfort. But also responsibility; my mother of course was getting older, and you know, the cure for her and our family members, the ties we have with our family members was very important to us. And we no longer had the need to go somewhere else to go find employment. And we were pretty much independent, we had a source of doing pretty much what we wanted to. We have gone to travel 8:00and do whatever we want and this is sort of central, this is, we can have our cake and eat it too by living here. It’s only an hour and a half to Lexington so we can drive or fly anywhere in the world. And we’re happy here. As you grow older your friends and your family become more important to you and you lose all those connections from the working world. That no longer is that necessary to you so, and as you grow older I guess your sense of adventure sort of changes. So you look at life from a different perspective. I guess you become more selfish maybe. You no longer have some of those needs that you had before to fulfill that sense of adventure. So this is the best of both worlds as far as I can see it. 9:00AC: Do you feel like the people like you who left, did it more for a sense of adventure or for economic reasons; like they had to?

BACK: Well, I guess it was a combination, I don’t know…it was an obligation to, for me it was as much as fulfilling an obligation to my country, un, because Uncle Sam had called me to go. And if I had gone to Canada, which I probably had that choice, I probably wouldn’t have had to gone, but, uh, that sort of started things going. And in a sense it was good for me, I’m sure Blanche too, because there was that safety net. Even though I was going 10:00to Kansas and a foreign land, I was in the military and as long as I was in the military the military was going to look after me. But the sit, it, and I grew up a lot during that time so it was kind of a two-way street. I’m not so sure it filled that sense of adventure, but also an obligation I wanted to fulfill.

AC: How had this area changed from when before you left when you came back?

BACK: How has it changed. Well, uh, the roads are better, the transportation is better, it’s not a small of a world as it was. Of course the world has changed during that time. We have better communications, 11:00we have the internet now. Before Lexington was 5 hours away, 5 or 6 hours away and now it is an hour and a half. There’s more opportunity now than there was then. Back then it was subsistence living, there was no jobs unless you, uh, maybe worked for the state or was a teacher. Of course that’s pretty much true today, but even a job in Lexington, commuting was out of the question then although it’s a stretch now. There’s more, we didn’t have a McDonald’s then. So, you know, there’s more retail facilities. 12:00The creature comforts are much better. We have city water right here and that’s a plus. The standard of living has, has increased. I’d say the household income has probably tripled. But again I think it’s more up to the individual to take advantage of opportunities than the local situation. But other than that it’s pretty much the same. Some of the same folks that we went to high school with are here. 13:00They’re the same people. I guess I’m more involved in local government activities than I was then and I’m more aware of what’s going on but I doubt that over all it’s changed all that much.

AC: When you left, those people who stayed here, how did they make a living?

BACK: The ones that remained?

AC: Yeah.

BACK: Are you talking about my peers?

AC: Yeah.

BACK: Well, some of them went into business themselves. And of course some of those were from families that had local businesses. They continued those businesses. Others have started businesses on their own. Some have become teachers in the school system. 14:00Some have worked for state government. And some have probably done the same thing that Blanche and I have. They moved away and then retired and moved back. But the ones that remained here pretty much were teachers or worked for the state.

AC: Your mom, Sarah Jane, she stayed here her whole life? Is that right? How did she live when, was it most of her children, moved away up north? Or did most, most of them moved up north, is that right? Or is that not right?

BACK: Well, I have a brother 15:00and I have a sister. My half-sister moved north and has stayed there and retired and continues to live there. My brother has moved back and forth. He lived here for a period of time, especially when the coal business was going good and he was involved in coal related businesses and then when the coal business declined he moved to Lexington. And he’s lived there since.

AC: How did she and your father make a living during the 50s and 60s?

BACK: During the 50s and 60s. My dad farmed, he logged, he was a night watchman for a local 16:00Chevrolet dealer. And then later for a short period of time went to Dayton and was a night watchman for a little factory up there for a while. My mother was a cook at the grade school for a period of time and then about the time I left home she worked for, worked at a dairy bar until my dad was able to get his social security and then they retired.

AC: Do you recall them having any opinions or feelings about people who left? Who didn’t stay?

BACK: The people who left. I guess the biggest thing was that, the ones that left and went north came back with an accent and it was always kind of like the people who left 17:00maybe felt a little better. We thought, you know, that was our perception, that they, they seemed to feel like they had succeeded. And I know it’s been an issue that we’ve often talked about; families that come back that, especially the ones that, the ones where the men would take work in factory jobs, especially with automobile manufacturers: General Motors, Fridgidaire, and they would always come back with a black shirt and tie you know, dress up when they would come back, they always had a new car, you know? So we could say, “well, they’ve done well.” But if the truth was known, they really weren’t living any better than we were, you know? But that’s kind 18:00of a perception.

BLANCHE BACK: My brother said that somebody from up north come down here and lived 30 years and couldn’t speak our dialect and we go up there one weekend and we come back with an accent. [laughter] BACK: But the folks that moved away couldn’t wait to come home and a lot of them came home every weekend. And especially holidays, every body came home and they all spent their vacations back here so it was kind of a family reunion and 19:00a lot of times we would go back and uh, spend some time with them, you know, it was I mean it was great to go spend time with my cousins and my, especially my nephew. And I loved it, you know?

AC: Did you ever go visit any of your relatives who had left when you were a young boy?

BACK: Yeah, we, we’d always go. And depending on our schedules, we’d try to visit at least once or twice a year and then they’d do the same.

AC: What did you think about that when you were little?

BACK: Think about visiting relatives?

AC: Yeah, how was the experience to you going places out of this area?

BACK: Oh it was a treat. Um, I can only remember my parents taking 20:00maybe two vacations and they were short, like a week. I know one especially was the first new bicycle, first bicycle I ever had. We were up visiting my sister and my dad bought us a bicycle while we were up there and I loved to spend time with my sister. She would take us to the Cincinnati Zoo and different places so it was a treat. It was always a pleasant experience.

A:C What did your sister, what did she do in Cincinnati, or, what did her family do?

BACK: My sister? She owned a, a little restaurant in a paper factory. It was a canteen where all the employees ate. 21:00And I guess she started there initially as a cook but then I guess she bought it and ran it for years, was very successful at it. And my brother-in-law worked at general motors, retired from general motors.

AC: What was the name of the paper factory?

BACK: It changed hands, Miamisburg Paper, West Carollton Envelope, but it was in West Carollton, the little town just south of Dayton.

AC: Yeah. Because you read about a lot of people leaving here and going to work at the Champion Paper Company in Hamilton, so, but, I don’t know. How do you think, like every day life changed when people started leaving? Changed here?

BACK: How life changed for the ones that remained? When the others left? 22:00Well, I guess for my grandfather, he had a big family, and he had several boys and, of course, he had inherited and purchased the balance of heirs from my grandmother’s estate. So he had several laborers and he depended on those children to, to farm and when they left, you know, that sort of put a hardship on him. And as a matter of fact, he encouraged his children to stay. And, but as they left, then a lot of times they would run into hard times and bring their grandchildren back. So we ended up, not unlike today, raising somebody’s grandchildren. 23:00But the big change was that he lost his work hands when his family moved. In my family’s case, I don’t think, I think it was more of a relief because there was fewer mouths to feed. From an economic standpoint, it really, it was a plus for my folks. Of course they were getting older so…and that was, that was a relief for them, for me to be out of school and my brother and cut their expenses in half.

AC: When did, I guess, when, why did this change and sustainable agriculture take place? Like for your family, you said people 24:00grow their own things and had their own animals? Did you way that?

BACK: Well, in my grandfather’s case, it was more subsistence farming. He had a tobacco base and he had corn and he raised corn and he had cattle and horses, hogs, and so not only did he farm to put food on the table, but that really was his source of income. His tobacco crop every year was probably, oh, I’m guessing probably 3,000 dollars back in the, back in the 50s, 60s, and that was a substantial income. And so he depended on, on his children to help and when they left, then that meant some of that money that he could spend on his family, he had to go out and hire someone else to take their place. 25:00AC: When did that sort of way of living start changing?

BACK: Pardon?

AC: When did that sort of way of living start changing?

BACK: When did it start changing?

AC: Yeah, the way your grandfather lived?

BACK: Well I guess, probably in, after, probably in the 50s. Probably the late 50s when, the assembly line in some of those factories in the north, the demand for labor, and that was an opportunity and little by little as people migrated from here to up there, and then brought the news back that hey, you could leave and go to Cincinnati and get a job and slowly that transition happened. 26:00And also as those folks, my uncles and aunts, as they became of age, and were looking to make a living themselves, there was no farmland there for them to take.

END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1 BEGINNING OF SIDE B, TAPE 1: BACK: And so they, they in ‘60 were forced to go somewhere else because the farm was already supporting the max. And so in’60 they were forced to go somewhere else to make a living because there were no jobs.

AC: So do you think that people migrating out and coming back in sped up the process of progress in the county?

BACK: I’m not sure I understand your question there.

AC: Do you think since people would leave and experience a sort of different way of life and then they’d come back, do you think that, that 27:00changed the way people lived at all? The way, like the progress of the county or did it, did the county just progress by itself, like the things you were talking about, that changed, like, there’s a McDonald’s now, do you think that would have just happened by itself?

BACK: I think probably for the most part. Maybe the folks that lived away, coming back, obviously had an influence because you could look around and see that, you know? You could drive a new car, you could have running water, you could have carpet on the floors, and how do you go about that? The ones that chose to stay 28:00wanted those same things. They just didn’t want to move. And so I think that change probably would have happened anyway. And we’re all reluctant to change. You know, we’re creatures of habit. And you know, I experience the same thing with the coal boom. My generation. We went through a period where the coal industry here was dying out but there was jobs available with the same corporation in other states. And several employees that were offered jobs would not relocate. 29:00So, you know, I think it probably influenced you, back to your question, I think we were influenced by people that moved away and visited and came back, but also change would have happened anyway because the economy here was improving and there was also an outside influence from the world. I mean, we weren’t living in a vacum, you know? The road made a big difference. That in itself probably was the major factor. Because you can now go to Lexington to shop. It doesn’t take 2 days to go there and back, you know? And so then, as those transportation means got better and the coal industry probably had a big, was a big factor because 30:00there was some jobs created and we began to have some of those same facilities that we went elsewhere for.

AC: Do you think there is any difference between people who left and came back and people who never left? Like, can you see differences today?

BACK: Is there a difference. I think it depends on the individual. There’s, there’s a number of people that we went to high school with that stayed here and were very successful and remain here today and run businesses that are still very successful. I don’t know if they really have changed any more than I have. But then there are others who have stayed here and, 31:00I don’t know if it’s because they stayed here, but, maybe they didn’t want to change, you know?

AC: Do you think part of the reason, like, some of the people that you know who stayed, who are successful, do you think part of the reason they were successful is because so many people left and that opened up more opportunities for them?

BACK: I don’t know that that really was a big factor, I just think that there were demands for goods and services because of the changing economic conditions and they recognized an opportunity and took advantage. 32:00I think that’s the big reason.

AC: Okay. So were most of the, I know I’m repeating some of the questions, but it’s just to get a different, I mean, some of the questions I asked Blanche, but it’s just to get a different voice. How old were most of the people who went north? Were they your age when you went? Like right out of college? How do you remember?

BACK: Are you asking, most of the people we graduated with were those who went North, is that what you’re… AC: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 33:00BLANCHE BACK: For a period of time.

BACK: Yeah, for a period of time. It’s kind of hard to say because you lose track, you know, of people, you know? There was like 175 in our graduating class, and probably maybe half those people you might have had contact with. You know, and we were moving too, so, you know, and it’s kind of like looking back twenty years and saying, you know, where are my peers now, you know? You know, the ones that you were close friends with you keep up with and you kind of know where they are, so, and they were kind of like us, you know, they, they, some of them kind of moved in and out during that, during the past forty years. So it’s kind of hard to say, I don’t know, I would say the majority of them moved, probably moved, how many I don’t know, but I would say the majority, probably over half 34:00I would say moved.

AC: And then did the majority of those people come back?

BACK: I doubt it.

BLANCHE BACK: Well, some.

BACK: Some have, but I doubt the majority of them have.

BLANCHE BACK: I doubt it.

BACK: I doubt it because they’ve established family ties, you know, they’ve relocated and made that transition. If fifty percent moved, probably no more than twenty percent came back. Just a guess.

AC: When you were, can you tell me about the sense of community that you felt growing up here?

BACK: The sense of community I felt?

AC: Yeah.

BACK: Well it was very strong and probably 35:00and even, probably has a big influence today on how I see things. When we laid down at night, we never thought about locking the door. It was a very safe place. We knew everybody and everybody knew us. We were all friends. You never really saw a stranger in the community. And we would often visit back and forth from time to time and there was a sense of really, of closeness and I still sense that even having lived away several years and moved back. This little community even where I grew up. Of course there’s people, that, that, those people have changed but the ones that are still there, I still feel that sense of closeness. 36:00And I notice that especially when we have lived in other communities that uh, you miss that.

AC: How large was the community you were a part of when you were growing up?

BACK: How large, you mean in terms of people or miles or… AC: Both I guess.

BACK: Well, I’d say my community was probably limited to, maybe, ten square miles. Ten mile radius, I guess around where I lived. And I wouldn’t know how to guess how many people.

BLANCHE BACK: A few thousand.

BACK: Yeah, a couple thousand maybe.

AC: O.K. So it wasn’t just your family? 37:00BACK: No, it was beyond my family, yeah.

AC: Do you feel like that’s the same today?

BACK: Is that the same today?

AC: Yeah.

BACK: Oh it’s much bigger than that today for me. Yeah. And because of work because of years of interaction with people and the friends that we’ve made and different connections, it’s much bigger.

AC: When you were 38:00young and people were leaving, how did you keep in touch with either the people who had left or people who were here when you had left?

BACK: Do we still keep in touch?

AC: How did you keep in touch?

BACK: How did we keep in touch. Well we came back fairly often, maybe we were gone, maybe six months at a time maybe…without coming back. And visits and phone calls and we’d write letters, they would visit us.

AC: 39:00Okay. You’ve answered most of these. What do you feel has, I don’t know if I already asked you this in some sort of other question, but what do you feel has stayed the same here in Breathitt County and this Eastern Kentucky region, the region where you grew up, Hazard, has stayed the same since you grew up, what sorts of things have stayed the same do you feel like?

BACK: Things that have stayed the same. The people have stayed the same.

AC: Mm-hmm.

BACK: 40:00And by that I mean there’s a sense of family, a sense of caring here that is unlike anywhere else that I’ve lived. A sense of closeness with people. I can go to Jackson and, of course, very few people walk up and down the street that I don’t know, but there’s a lot I don’t. But even strangers are willing to help you. . . . to lend a helping hand. You know, you have a flat out here on the road, someone’ll stop and help you. You know, and you get into Lexington or somewhere out here and it’s a different situation. 41:00So that, that, that has remained the same and that’s probably the thing that draws us back to the mountains more than anything else. That’s the biggest thing.

AC: So you feel like it’s different here than like, if someone had grew up somewhere else other than here, then maybe they wouldn’t feel as compelled to return, that this place has some that’s different?

BACK: True. It’s true, it’s like, and it probably applies to anybody. You look at your home where you grew up and you wonder if you hadn’t, if you hadn’t been, if you hadn’t lived there most of your life, what reason would you have to go back? You know, who would want to buy that house and live there? 42:00Who wants to live in a hollow in Breathitt County? You know? Obviously people from that area are the only ones interested. It’s localized. Unless you have a reason for a job or employment, besides that, unless you have a personal reason, there’s no reason for you to live there. And then the same thing applies here, you know, we’re no different from any other place.

AC: All right, well, that’s all.

BACK: O.K.

END OF INTERVIEW