Oral History Interview with Shirley Manns

ANN COX:. . . Not very good with the technology. Okay [laughter]. This is Ann Cox interviewing Shirley Mann on, Manns? Shirley Manns on March 31st, 2004. You can just start out by telling me a little bit about yourself.

SHIRLEY MANNS: Okay. I’m not sure what you want to know, but, okay, let’s see, what would you like to know about me? I’m fifty-one years old and actually I was born here in Jackson and moved to Ohio and grew up there and came back here when I was seventeen and went my senior year to high school here and also to Lees College. And I’ve, I worked for three years after college at Campton, and then, at a factory down there, and then I 1:00came back here and I’ve been with the state for twenty-seven years. Hopefully can retire really soon. I am divorced, I live alone, I have two wonderful children and four very special grandsons. So I guess that’s pretty much the things that are the most important to me so that’s kind of a little bit about me, I guess if that’s, that’s sufficient or whatever you needed.

AC: What do your children do?

MANNS: Okay, I have a son and a daughter, my daughter against my advice quit school when she got married and was almost through nursing school, but now she’s been working at a hospital for about four years and decided to go back to nursing school, so she actually works full time and goes to school full time and has a two year old and a three year old and so she’s a pretty busy little gal. She lives in LeGrange, which is kind of close to Louisville. And my son Richard, works for the Lee County 2:00Adjustment Center over in Beatyville. He’s a, a security guard at the prison there. So that’s kind of where they are in their lives and he’s almost twenty-four and she’s almost twenty-six.

AC: The, can you tell me a little bit about your father?

MANNS: Okay, a little bit about my dad, okay. My dad was Auburn Hatton or A.B. Hatton, his nickname was Slick, funny little story about that, if you want to know how he got that name, when he was a very small child he developed some kind of a rash on his little body and he turned kind of red on his skin, I think it was a, he had a very high fever and so his skin kind of peeled, almost like he was sunburned so his grandfather said, “Well look at little Slick.” 3:00So that went with him until actually in his obituary, it had his name in parenthesis as Slick, so that was, that was how dad got his nickname, and most people didn’t know his name, they called him Slick. But anyway, he was born October 17, 1925. He was born here in Breathitt County and grew up on the farm over there at, up on Strong Fork, Keck, up through there. Told us lots of stories about farm life and having to walk from the house there about four miles through the creek to get down to the main road to go to school in high school. They had a small school there that he went to in grade school, but in high school he had a long, long walk. And he just stayed on the farm there after, after he was out of school and I think when he was about in his early twenties, 4:00he was called to the army and went to the army and was gone for about four years. I think he was in several different places, but spent most of the time in the Phillipine Islands, and that was during World War Two. And that was one of the most, most important things in the world to him was that he had been a veteran, that he had served our country, he was very proud of that. Had a lot of souvenirs from, you know, from his days in the army and some pictures that he hung on the wall until, you know, when he passed away they were still on the wall, he was just so very proud of that and said, you know, that he just thought our country was worth risking your life for. So he was really proud of that and the fact that, you know, when he came home he, he still wanted to stay on the farm and work there but jobs were, you know, farm life was very difficult 5:00work, didn’t pay very much, so he ended up getting married and then just two or three months after I was born, which was in 1952, we moved to Dayton, Ohio, where he started working for General Motors, and he worked there for almost twenty years and then became disabled, well, it’s probably I guess about seventeen, because I was seventeen when we moved down here. So we moved back and he still tried to, you know, keep the farm kind of going, you know, keep a garden and all that, but really wasn’t able to do a lot of farm work after that. So he lived there on the farm until just before he died and it was you know, always his dream to come back here and live, even when we were far away, you know at other places and stuff, he wanted to come back here because that was where his roots were and he just, you know, this was always home to him and no place ever was, you know, 6:00where he wanted to be so, anyway, that’s kind of his life in a nutshell, I guess.

AC: What about your mother?

MANNS: Okay mom. Mom was born November 9, 1933 and she was also born here in Kentucky. It was strange, they were born very close together, years apart I guess, I think dad was like eight years older than mom, but they were born probably a couple miles apart. And, and of course my dad moved to, grew up on a farm, and mom moved to Indiana during her very young years and they lived up there for a while and of course dad was here and grew up on a farm and then he went to the army and then came back and it’s kind of like they went far, far away but when they came back they kind of, they met and, you know, just grew together and fell in love and got married and that was 1951 7:00I guess, when they got married and so as I said, we lived in Dayton and mom worked up there for a lot of years at a factory and then, I think she worked there for probably about ten years and then my brother came along, that was in, I guess he was born in 1967 so mama worked for a little while after he was born and then we moved back down here and mom worked for a while at the factory in Campton, at the computer factory down there. And then after that she worked at Wal-Mart for about seven or eight years and she developed lung cancer and about six months later, it was terminal, and about six months after we found out that she had it, she passed away. So, she’s been gone almost four years. 8:00So, she died in 2000, so, and dad died back about eighteen months before mom, in ‘99, whatever part of ‘99. He had a lot of heart problems, and he had open heart surgery, he had six bypasses and he died from complications of that, so mom and dad were both gone within just a little over a year so, I sadly miss them a lot.

AC: Your brother was quite a bit younger than you.

MANNS: Yes. My brother’s fifteen years younger than me, but don’t tell anybody [laughing]. He likes to tease me about that. But yeah.

AC: What was your mother’s name?

MANNS: My mother’s name, actually her name was Mary Annis. Spencer was her maiden name. But everybody, most called her Ann. So 9:00that’s kind of the story of her life, I guess.

AC: So, did you have a lot of contact with your grandparents when you were growing up?

MANNS: Yeah, a lot of contact with them. Again, both my grandparents, my mom’s parents and my dad’s parents lived on the same little, in the same little neighborhood over there on Strong Fork or Keck and all during the summers when I was growing up, I’d come down here and spend the whole summer. As soon as school was out, you know, I’d come down and spend two- or three-months vacation time down here with them so there was a lot of time that I can remember. One thing that amazes me now, and even my children think it’s strange, is that I can remember when the mail was carried on horseback by a man that lived, 10:00well he lived actually on Hunting Creek which is the very, as far as you can go up on our little creek over there and then go over the hill and it goes into, to Hunting Creek. And so he would ride his horse across that hill from his house, across the hill and down the creek to my grandfather’s house and put his horse in my grandfather’s barn and then he’d drive a vehicle, he kept, left his vehicle there and he would drive his vehicle to town and, you know, pick up mail on the way over and take it over there and then, then he’d come back, and anybody who wanted anything, if they’d leave a note in their mailbox and some money for it, he’d pick up anything they needed, whether it was a, you know, just a few groceries, you know, he didn’t do a whole lot of things but if they just needed one or two items, like a stovepipe, I remember my grandpa used to say, “Well I need something like the pipe for my stove,” and the mailman’s name was Daily Rowark and he said, “I’ll 11:00just leave some money in the mailbox and tell Daily what I want and he’ll bring it.” and so, he did, he picked up the money on his way over there and the note, what he wanted, bring it back, you know, if he had change or if he needed a little bit more, you know, he’d leave a little note, “you owe me two more dollars, or here’s three dollars change,” or whatever. so, my, my very, very fun thing was, was riding the old mule that we had and pretending to be Daily Rowark, the mailman.

AC: [LAUGHING] Manns: So, that was, that was so neat though because it was just, if you ride the horse across the hill, come down to our house and put the horse in the barn, get in his vehicle, drive to town, pick up everything, you know, get the mail, deliver it, bring it back home, leave his vehicle in the barn, get his horse, ride on home. So it was, that was neat and that’s been, well, it was in the fifties because, you know, I was just a, a real small child but it seems strange now when you see the mail process and how it goes on, you know, to think that even in my lifetime I can remember these big saddle bags that he had across the horses back, you know, and the mail was in that so 12:00that was kind of neat, I thought. But I spent a lot of time with my grandparents, and I can remember when they put electric in their house. They didn’t have any electric in their house, all they had was just the lamps, they had just the oil and they would light the wick and have the globe on it. You didn’t do much at night, there was no T.V. or radio or anything like that, you just, a lot of times I can remember granny sitting around telling us scary stories and you know, we just had a lot of a lot of fun. I can remember sitting in her lap in the old rocking chair and she would tell us things about when she was little, when she was growing up or scary stories, she used to tell us about granny green eyes and all these, these old scary people that lived around there and if you were bad granny green eyes would get you, you know. She’d tell us things like that and just. . . and I can remember her having to go 13:00to the creek and get water and put it in a big old tub and build a fire under it to wash clothes and she made this old lye soap and washed the clothes with that. And she’d have a big old stick and she’d just punch those clothes down and that water would boil, and you’d always have to have another tub of water to rinse, and you know, you used the same water, you know, you did the white clothes first. So, put them out to rinse, and then the dark clothes, the old jeans or things that were, you know, were very worst, you waited until last to wash them and of course she always hung them out on the line to dry and they were always stiff and you know, no fresh smell except what the air or the wind might do with them. But granny always had, we always had everything fresh, you know, if we had a chicken for supper she’d go out and gather eggs and get a chicken and kill the chicken and pick the feathers and cut it up and, you know, cook it fresh and she always had a garden and lots of canned 14:00stuff and always during the summer you’d get it fresh out of the garden and she’d can all kinds of things and put it up for the winter. she had a cellar in the back, it was kind of like, there was a little hill that goes up behind the house and there was just a, a dugout room, I guess you could say, was back out there that had like, a walk like around the sides and the back and over the top and she put apples in there and they always had to be separated to where they wouldn’t touch, but she’d keep them for several months, you know, and like during the winter time, you know, you could go out there and get an apple. and she didn’t put preservatives or anything on them, I don’t know how they kept, but if they were certain, at a certain stage when she’d pick them and be careful not to bruise them and all that, you know, she could keep some for several months during the winter and that’s the only time that you had like fresh fruit or something, you know, you’d just happen to have it there. And she canned everything and, and my grandfather would kill hogs. We ate a lot of pork, 15:00he’d kill hogs and we had a smoke house out there and it’s still up there and he would kill the hogs and salt the meat down, you know, to preserve it, and hang it up in the, you know, from the rafters in the smoke house. It was really special at Christmas or something, you know, he’d go out there and cut down the ham. and I can remember him salting all that outside of it, you know, cutting it off and slicing the ham and we had things like that. Granny even canned chickens. She would kill them and cut them up and fry them and then put them in a mason jar and turn them upside down with the lids on it and the hot grease would cause it to seal and then she would, she would can it like that and that would, so you could have, all you could do was just take it out and heat it up.

She didn’t have microwaves and all that [laughing]. But it, it was just really easy to prepare and ( ) and things like that she would, she’d go ahead and fry them ready to eat and them put it in those, put it in jars, 16:00you know while it was really hot and turn them upside down and then it would seal. So, there’s a lot of things I remember about things being so different. and we didn’t have refrigerator, like milk, to keep it cold, or anything to drink, they’d put it in a mason jar and tie the lid, you know, tighten the lid really tight and put it down in the well. Of course, the well was underneath the ground, and it was cooler down there and that’s as cold as you ever got anything because we didn’t have, I guess a lot of people had a box, an ice box where you could buy a block of ice, but we didn’t have that. We didn’t have electricity and we didn’t have anything like that. To keep it cold, you put it down in the well. So neat old things like that, that people don’t have any idea that, you know, go on, or but, my grandfather, he always worked and raised the tobacco crop and he had a mule that, you know, that he used for everything to plow the, the ground and, you know to, to plow the garden, 17:00you know, just kind of keep everything under control as much as you could with cutting down weeds and all that.

And you know, he would do that with just an old hoe or maybe a, just a, I guess just a sharp blade on like a, a handle that was just made out of wood. And just kind of go through and just chop down. There wasn’t a lot of tools and of course nothing like chainsaws, or ( ), or lawnmowers or anything like that. A lot of times they would have some goats that would keep things down, you know, so they kept them for just that purpose a lot and they used to have a lot of sheep and sheep is something that you don’t see a lot anymore. Not around here especially but there was always lots of animals around and you know, life was just so different because you, you pretty much were self-sufficient, I mean, you would buy, he only got paid 18:00like once a year when he sold the crops, so he couldn’t buy things a lot and pay cash for them. It was like you always had credit and of course your credit was your word, it wasn’t like a credit card, or you know, you’d just go buy something and sign your name for it, and then the first thing he’d do when he would sell his crops was go pay off the grocery store or the general store or wherever he owed. but that was kind of how they did things. A lot of times they would trade things like fresh eggs for something that they needed from the store. And there used to be a store there my great grandmother actually died before I was born, but I can remember the building being up there and she had a, a general store where they had catalogues where you could order shoes and a lot of people, when they would come to town, they would come to that store up there and she had all kinds of things like 19:00sugar and flower and my grandfather said she had like a big old barrel that had pickles in it and something kind of like you see on T.V., I guess. But, but you just didn’t, you didn’t go into town, you just kind of went out to this little store that had all kinds of things and if you ordered something, you could order shoes or material from the, just people made their clothes, and you could order things like that and it would take maybe a month for it to come in, but then they’d expected you to come in and get it and it was the same way when my great grandmother had that store up there. A lot of people would, would buy things and would, you know, buy them on credit and then they’d come in when their crops were sold and pay their bills and they did that pretty much all year long because they didn’t have any money coming in, you know, all through the year. Just at the end. So, so a lot of good times that I can remember, my grandfather was Lawton Hatton, 20:00my dad’s dad and he was only sixty-two when he was killed and then granny came to live with us up in Ohio, so my memories of my grandparents were, were back when I was much younger. I mean, you know, my grandfather was gone when I was only ten and then, I didn’t come back down here anymore that much because my granny lived with us. So, but there’s a lot of good memories and times have certainly changed from what they were back then. To think that there was no electricity even though rainwater, you had to go out to the well and drag the water. My grandparents didn’t even have, like, some people had a pump in the house, you know, just a hand pump that you could pump and then water would come through, but we didn’t have that, we just had our way out there to the well, and there was a bucket tied to, you know, to the top of the chain and we’d just let the bucket down in there, drag the water out like that. So, 21:00[we] didn’t have a lot of conveniences, but it was good times though.

AC: Did your grandmother, was it hard for her to. . .

Manns: Yeah, I think it was very hard because granny was almost seventy, she was in her late sixties when, when my grandfather was killed and she came to live with us and we, we only had two bedrooms, of course mom and dad had a bedroom and I had one and this was long before my brother was ever born, so granny and I had to share a bedroom. So, can you imagine a ten-year-old child and a seventy-year-old woman! And we had this little imaginary line drawn down the center of the room and one half was granny’s, and one half was mine. So granny had half the bed and she had a chest of drawers over here and I had ( ) here, and half the closet, you know, we had this little measuring, she had half the closet, I had half the closet so, we got along really good because I can remember still 22:00going up there when I was really small to her house when she used to hold me in her lap and tell me all these stories and stuff and I could ask her about that, “granny, is that really true about old granny green eyes that will get you if you’re mean?” And she’d just kind of look at me and grin, she’d say, “well I don’t know, what do you think?” But it was just a real adjustment for her because she had always lived in that Breathitt County, in this area from the time she was born, and to, you know, live in a setting like that and then have to move in, you know, to a home at almost age seventy, even though she knew that, that we loved her and all that, but it was very difficult for her to, you know, to make that adjustment.

Because we lived in an apartment upstairs and then she was used to being out in the country and you know, having barns and horses and the chickens and, you know, just farm life is just so much different and a big house that’s spacious 23:00and all that, so it was very difficult for her but she, she adjusted fairly well. She was, she stayed with us for probably four to five years after that and then she ended up getting married again, a man that lived here in Breathitt County. I’m not sure how she actually met him, but anyways, she ended up getting married to him and they both experienced some poor health not very long after that and then they ended up, well he had to go to a nursing home and then granny came and lived with me. I was married at the time, and she came and lived with me for a couple of years and then she ended up going to the nursing home and it was, she stayed there for probably two years because she had to have skilled nursing care and we couldn’t provide that at home. so, then she lived to be ninety-two. She was, well actually, it was about a couple months before 24:00she would have been ninety-two, she was ninety-one, but she passed away in February, I think it was 1988, but she was almost ninety-two, so she lived a long life and was the person that always kept us in line [laughter]. She just kind of, you know, when she said something, it was like, you know, you better listen! But she was, she was a really special person and she was really good to all of us and took care of everybody and she was just a typical grandmother I guess, but she had a lot of hard times and I know she said there were times when she used to go to the neighbor’s house and work all day long. She’d start before daylight and go to the neighbor’s house and work all day long doing whatever, washing clothes or working in the garden or in the fields or whatever needed to be done. She’d work all day long just to get a 25:00chicken for supper or, or some milk and eggs or whatever, before they had their own place, you know, when they just lived on the farm up there with several other people and families, you know. And it was really difficult, you know, to work long hours like that just for enough for one meal for you and your children. And my grandfather worked away a lot and so she had a really hard time, but she was, she was a special person, she had a lot of, I don’t know, just a lot, she had a really good sense of humor, and she was just always happy and so she’s, you know, she’s left a lot of good memories for us all.

AC: Was her name, what was her name?

Manns: Her name was Dora, Gillum was her maiden name and then she was, she’d have a middle name, but it was Dora Gillum, and she was married to my grandfather, so she was a Hatton. 26:00Married to, grandfather’s name was actually general Lawton Hatton and until I was probably, maybe even after he was gone, I thought because his name was General, that he had some kind of military background, that he was like something in the military, Army, Navy, whatever, but he wasn’t, that was just his first name was General and it was general Lawton Hatton.

AC: Neat.

Manns: Yeah, I always thought that was so neat because I had a grandfather that was a general but found out later that he wasn’t ever in the military! But his name was still General so that was kind of neat, I thought. I never heard anybody have that first name, but he did so. . .

AC: So, the whole time that you lived in Dayton did you live in that apartment?

Manns: We lived; I think three different places while we were in Dayton, but it was in the same area. Yeah, we lived in three different apartment houses, and 27:00it was just, you know, just a small apartment and in fact, the first one that I can remember was just two rooms. We had like a kitchen and then the other room was just like a, there was a bed there. It was like a bedroom and a living room all together and we had the bathroom, but it was a pretty small place and then the second one was upstairs and that really small, we did have two bedrooms, so it was a little bit bigger. That’s where, when my granny lived with us, and then after that we moved into a house that was quite a bit bigger, it was like a two-story house, and we lived in half of it. But I was pretty lucky I only went to one grade school, for eight years I went to the same school and then the high school for three years until we moved down here, and 28:00I went my senior year so. . .

AC: And what was the year that you moved down here?

Manns: We moved down here in 1969 and then I went the next year to Breathitt High School and graduated in 1970.

AC: So, what was that like for you? [laughing] Manns: Culture shock--major! it was completely, totally different. In Ohio, the area that you live in is just so much smaller geographically, I guess you could say. It’s just, you know, there was [were] all kinds of kids just really close and just kind of everybody got together all the time and you did things all the time and then when we moved down here, we lived, we lived about ten or twelve miles from town. And my senior year when we moved down here, we didn’t have any heat 29:00in the house except fireplaces. . .

End of side one, tape one Beginning of side two, tape one Manns:. . . Electric heat or gas heat or anything like that and each room had a fireplace in it, but we pretty much stayed in one room because it was kind of hard to heat and all that, but you know, anyway when we moved back down here, we didn’t have running water. We didn’t have a bathroom in the house, we just had the heat from the fireplace, and we had electric blankets because I think we probably would have frozen to death because it got so cold. But my senior year we did not have school for six weeks. Six whole weeks because of the bad weather. The hills were so bad and the buses, you know, had to go across those curvy, windy roads, so we didn’t have, we didn’t have school for six weeks, but I can remember staying in that house and not going anyplace or doing anything for six whole weeks that we didn’t, you know, we didn’t go anywhere or do anything. It was so cold, and you really couldn’t go out and do anything, we didn’t have a T.V., we didn’t have a radio, so 30:00it was, it was an experience. But it was just, you know, I didn’t go any place or do anything, I didn’t have any friends that I really knew that well and so mom and dad were always hesitant to go anyplace or do anything with somebody I didn’t know even though I was seventeen years old it was still just really different and it was just hard to adjust after living in a city all those years and then your senior year and you go into the school and nobody knows you and it’s like, they had freshman initiation and they thought I was a freshman, they were trying to initiate me.

AC: oh no!

Manns: Because they hadn’t seen me before and it was like, “how do we know you’re telling us the truth; how do we know that you’re really a senior this year?” But it was, it was a lot different. And of course I had, I guess everybody has a best friend and I had one I was really close to and I had gone to school with for eleven years and 31:00leaving her was probably the hardest thing and we’d write each other a letter every day and that was difficult but it was just something that we did because you know, dad was sick and unable to work anymore and he always wanted to come back down her so that’s what they decided to do. We just had to deal with it I guess, but it really made you appreciate the finer things of life, and I don’t know if you can say the finer things of life are heat and running water and a bathroom, but, but it’s difficult to live without them. You take them for granted if you have them and have never done without them, but it was, it was [a] major culture shock difference. But it probably wasn’t the worst thing that ever happened in my life, but it was different, to say the least.

AC: How long was your house like that?

Manns: Well, the house, I can remember my grandfather 32:00saying that the house was built in 1912 so we got electric. Actually, right now the house still doesn’t have, it’s in bad, bad, bad need of repair. I need to repair it now, but still, they never put a bathroom in the house or anything so it’s, you know it’s a very old house. It was built very well but it had a tin roof on it, and it started to leak so it’s getting, you know, to where it really needs a lot of work done or else it’s going be, you know, it’s going to be beyond repair, but it’s been like that, and they finally did connect some pipes to the well. They never drilled the well, so the well was a dug well that had just rocks laid around it and there’s this frame that runs into it, but it doesn’t get very deep and it runs back in and out as quickly as you take it out, but still, it’s not very deep and it doesn’t take very much to run it, you know, completely out. So, they did finally put in just water in the kitchen so that it could have water to cook with and do dishes, but you had to be really careful and sometimes to out and check the well to make sure there was enough water in it to run, you know, water 33:00enough to do dishes and all of that so you still had to be very careful. But I guess it’s almost unheard of anymore to, to have a home and not have running water or a bathroom. But that’s still the way the house is up there so. . . it’s been like that all the time.

AC: and it’s up on Strong Fork?

Manns: Mm-hmm. The last house up there.

AC: my mother, she was born up there.

Manns: really? Well, how about that.

AC: aAd some of her cousins still live up there actually.

Manns: oh! Well.

AC: Did you 34:00eventually make friends at your high school?

Manns: Yes, I did. Couple people that, well, I guess one friend actually. I was always involved in church and had a, somewhat of a religious upbringing I guess and the one girl that I guess I made friends with, first of all, her dad was a minister and there was kind of strange, we spent a lot of time together. We had a lot of classes together and we spent time together, we could go up into town at lunch, we got like a half an hour break so we could go up there and get some kind of snacks or some kind of drink or something like that and you kind of, you know attach yourself to one or two people, or most of the time that’s the best way it is. And she didn’t really have a, a I guess a best friend, and of course I didn’t know anybody, so we somehow got together, 35:00I don’t know. But her, her parents would let her come and spend the night with me a few times and then they finally said, “well, you know, you need to come spend the night with her.” And mom and dad were kind of hesitant to do that but they finally, after they found out a little more about her family and all that they finally decided I could go spend the night with her so that was, I guess she was my salvation in a way because she was just more--. Well there was like a little bible club that we had that some children, or the students were involved with and she was in that so I guess that might have been where we first initially got to together. But we just kind of had a lot of, of pretty much the same beliefs and concepts on life and our morals and principals and all that, you know, were pretty much the same so, yeah, then after that there were several people that, you know, I got to be friends with, it’s just that, 36:00I think by the time you’re a senior most people have their own little group that they deal with, and you know, they spend time with them and go places with them and we had a lot of bad weather and down here. You know, if it’s bad weather, you know, you don’t have any school so, you know, school’s closed and then the ball games and all that, you know, it’s, unless you have transportation to get there, you know, it’s just different. So, I just didn’t do a whole lot my senior year, but I did meet, you know, some people and have remained friends with them actually all these years since we got out of high school, so, or I mean kind of kept in contact, you know, so. . . It’s a different world though. [laughing] It’s a lot different than, you know, in a pretty good-sized city, you know, Dayton is, it’s not the biggest but it’s pretty good sized and then to move back here when there’s, you know, probably nobody for a mile or two, you know, houses are a mile apart, you know. 37:00So, it’s a, it is a big difference, but it was a good experience though really, all the way around and I don’t regret it.

AC: Do you keep in touch with your friends from Dayton?

Manns: From Ohio? I have one friend that I do keep in touch with, the one that I had eleven years with. It, it’s kind of strange, it seems like those years have gone by, we still, we still keep in contact, and we always send a Christmas card or something like that, but we don’t, of course we don’t write everyday like we used to when I first moved away, and it was kind of like we were joined at the hip. You know, and each one of us was just really sad that the other one was gone, but I do keep in contact with her. She sends, we send Christmas cards or whatever, usually when something happens. When she had her children, you know, she let me know that she had a baby and of course she was in my wedding when I got married. 38:00She came down and she was my maid of honor and then I wasn’t in her wedding but I went to it and so we’ve kept in touch, you know, during the years. You know, at the high school I went to up there they have a reunion at five-year intervals and so usually when there’s like five, ten, fifteen-year reunion. She always finds out when it’s going to be because she’s kept in contact with some of the people up there and she’ll let me know and so we’ll try to get together then so, but we graduated in ‘70 so, you know, each five years we try to get together and try reunions and all that. So, we do still keep in contact somewhat. so that’s good.

AC: What did you do after you graduated from high school?

Manns: Okay, after I graduated from high school, I was determined that, you know, I needed to find a job and make my mark on the world I guess, but I worked at a little restaurant in town and 39:00I worked six days a week, six hours a day and made one dollar per hour. So, for thirty-six hours I got thirty-six dollars and by the time they took taxes out of it, I think I cleared thirty-two and so I finally decided that it was not going to happen or work with me. So, I decided to go back to school. I stayed out a year and then I went to Lees College and graduated from there and then I, I worked in Campton. I had a couple little part-time jobs and, you know, two- or three-month jobs but I worked in Campton. Actually, I worked in the nursing home for several months while I was going to school, nursing home here in Jackson and then I worked at the factory in Campton for three years and then started with the state and that’s been twenty-seven years ago, because I’ve been there twenty-seven years. so that’s kind of the way my employment went. So. . .

AC: What was it like going to Lees College? 40:00Manns: Well, the first year I stayed home and just drove back and forth and it was, was a really different experience, I guess it was, it was a Christian college, but yet back in the, in the seventies there was a lot of, well there were several teachers that we had that, I don’t know how to describe it. They were self-sustaining, self-sufficient, they grew all their own food, they tried to prove a point that, that you didn’t have to have money, that you could survive without money. And there was a big influence on a lot of people around here with that, it was, it was just a totally different idea and of course there was a lot of, I hate to admit it, but there was a lot of drugs 41:00that, you know, even at a Christian school. Of course I didn’t get involved with much of it, I mean, not that I didn’t do drugs, I didn’t, but I was staying at home, and I’d just mostly go to classes and then tried to study or whatever and then go back home, and then the second year I stayed in the dorm and the first semester. And then after that I got married and so then, you know, I had, I had my own home then and I really didn’t get involved a lot with a lot of the students. There’s a lot of students there from surrounding states and there was just a lot of different influences and teachers from a lot of foreign countries and all that and it was, it was totally different obviously, well, from high school. It was just another major shock when I think of, 42:00you know, going to a Christian school and yet it was like, you know, the kids would say, “oh, well, if you want, you know, if you want some good pot all you got to do is ask so and so,” and it was like, wait a minute! This is not the way it is supposed to be, but you’d probably shoot me for saying this. But it was true you know, it was kind of like saying, I don’t know, you think about back in the seventies the flower power and the, so ( ) and that was kind of the way it was, but, you know, it was a good experience all and all. There was, it was a requirement to graduate from it being a Christian school, that you had to take so many bible related classes and all that. So, you know, you did get some of that, but on the other hand you got ( ) too, but, but it was, you know I really think it was a good school. I mean, I think they had some really good professors and teachers and all there so, but I, I knew that I had to go back to school 43:00or do something different because I didn’t think, you know, washing dishes and working in a restaurant was going to be what I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. So. . . I think going back to college was one of the smartest things I ever did. so, I’m, I’m glad that I did make that decision so. . .

AC: What was the restaurant that you worked in?

Manns: The restaurant that I worked at was the corner lunch. And it was, it was just a little kind of hole in the wall thing, but they had customers galore. I mean, there were always, almost always people standing, waiting to get a table and it was, it was a really neat little restaurant. They all made homemade food, homemade pies and homemade everything. They had special dinners every day and all that. It was really, really busy, but my job you know, was supposed to be like a waitress, but my job was mostly doing dishes. No dishwasher, two hands, a bottle of Clorox, and you know, one table right after another, you know. Actually, I did dishes probably 44:00for most of my six hours because there was just a constant movement of people and so somebody would leave. Somebody else would come in, so, so that was what made me decide that I didn’t want to work in a restaurant the rest of my life. So, that was an experience.

AC: Mm-hmm. It’s still there, right?

Manns: It’s still there. Yeah, it’s changed owners several times since then, but it’s still there. A lot of memories there.

AC: So, when you were living in Dayton did you see your Aunt Lou a lot?

Manns: Yeah, I did. She’s probably been the biggest influence in my life. She and my dad were very close and we always--all 45:00the holidays and all of that, we’d always spend together, and I can remember, most of the time on Saturday nights, I’d go spend the night with her. Because they always went to church on Sunday morning and then my parents didn’t go to church, you know like, regularly like she did. And so, she’d always call and see if I wanted to spend the night with her and go to church with her and so I spent a lot of time with her and especially, well, before her children were born. Because I can’t remember exactly how old I was, probably eight or ten years older than her oldest daughter, but she was always I guess just always there for me. I mean she was always there to guide me in the right direction or give me good advice and it was like she was always; she always had my best interest in her heart and she, she’s just, 46:00she’s just a wonderful person. She’s had a lot of a lot of tragedies in her life but she’s always, she’s always remained true to her faith, and she’s just been a really, really strong influence in my life and I always, you know her faith never wavered no matter what she went through. It was like, well, I didn’t know this was part of God’s plan, but somehow, you know, he’ll help me get through it and you know, she’s just always been, you know that, that strong pillar that you know you can always lean on, and she’s just done so many things. I mean not only, I mean it’s one thing to, to say something, but it’s another thing to live it and no matter what the situation is, and that’s the type of person that she is.

And there’s been so many times that, that I thought, 47:00you know, there’s nobody in the whole world that cared what happens to me and she, and then all the sudden she shows up. It’s like, you know, kind of I don’t know what the deal is but I--I had surgery one time, I was in the hospital by myself, and I was just walking down the hall. I was supposed to have surgery the next morning and I thought, “nobody’s here, you know, nobody really cares about what happens to me,” and I was just crying. And I went down by the elevator and when the doors opened, she popped out, you know, she goes, “hi there, what are you doing?” You know and she always, she’s always been there for me to keep me going. I know that after we moved down here it was very difficult financially, we didn’t have, we didn’t have a lot of money and when I started to school at Lees, my parents were not working and, you know, they weren’t able to help me financially. And so, it was really hard, and I didn’t have clothes--for anything like that and I remember she came down here that first year when school started, and she had a whole trunk of clothes. Her-- whole trunk of her car was full of clothes 48:00that she bought for me. So, it was just she went out and bought a coat and I don’t know what all, shoes, and just outfits to wear to school and you know it was just, things like that you never forget. She was just, she was just very considerate. She’s a, she’s a special person. I think you probably know that if you’ve already met her, talked to her, but she’s a fine person. She really is, she’s been a very good influence in my life, I think. I admire her and what she stands for.

AC: I feel, I felt sort of sad when I had to leave because she was all alone up there, even though her daughters, or her daughter lives there, I still felt bad.

Manns: I know it. She loves it if you come to see her. Monday, yeah Monday the 29th was her birthday and I called her, and 49:00I said, “what are you doing today?” I said, “have you had any company or anything?” She goes, “no.” See, her one daughter lives in North Carolina i guess, and then the other one lives two houses down, but her day starts at five in the morning, you know, she’s just a go, go, go and she has two teenage sons and all that so it’s hard. But she said Karen, her daughter that lives in North Carolina was coming up the next day or so. She said she hadn’t had any, any visitors or anything. It’s just been really hard for her because she and her husband had both retired and just did everything together, I mean, they spent twenty-four/seven together, pretty much. And then, you know, he had leukemia and passed away and she’s just been very lonely since then. Because, you know, the children have, they have lives and responsibilities that they have to do. You know, take care of their families and all that so. . . but anyway, I know it’s difficult for her to, you know, be alone, and that’s why I’m glad when she comes down to visit, 50:00down here, you know. Because we can spend time together. we went to Tennessee last year for, I think it was about for three or four days we went down there, we both enjoyed that. Of course, we both like to shop and do the same things, we like to do scrapbooks and stuff like that, so we have a lot of fun together. yeah, I really enjoy spending time with her. She’s a, she’s a lot of fun.

AC: I’d like to go back and visit her.

Manns: Yeah, you’ll have to, I’m sure she’d appreciate that. She’d love it.

AC: What did most of the people you graduated with go on to do from Breathitt, do you know?

Manns: From Breathitt High School?

AC: Mm-hmm. Or where did they go after they graduated?

Manns: Several people are teachers. They had some kind of a, a program where the teachers came here from Morehead 51:00and they had, I think they probably had like fifteen or twenty people that started out to get a degree in teaching. So, several of them completed that so there’s several people that I graduated with that are actually teaching in the school system here and then some in surrounding counties and all that. My best friend that I told you I finally got to spend the night with my senior year, she actually never did work. She, she married a guy that was a principal in a school, I think in Perry County or something. So, she just went, was a housewife and a mother, you know, after her children were born. There’s two or three, one actually works in my office in the social work field, lots of different things. One guy that I graduated with works at Toyota in Georgetown. 52:00A lot of them went other places because there’s not a lot of jobs here. Several of them live in and around the Lexington area. I know one of them is a dentist. Just different, you know, lots of different things, but I know the majority of them moved away because there’s just not, there’s not that many jobs available here. Either you teach or you work for the state, you know, if you want to have any kind of benefits or anything. Since the coal industry is gone, the booming coal trucks and strip mine jobs and all that are gone now and there’s just not, there’s just not a lot to do. It’s fast-food restaurants, minimum wage jobs pretty much and if you have any benefits or anything like that, you know it’s, 53:00it’s mostly just state jobs or teaching or something like that. It’s just not, not that much to do around here so . . . We’ve had a couple little factories that have come and gone, but I know it’s not anything stable that you really can raise a family on or anything like that so a lot of people, the majority of them I’d say, say at least fifty percent of them left here. And a lot of them, you know, there’s all kinds of things around Lexington, Georgetown, that area, and then some of them have gone to Michigan and Ohio and Tennessee. You know, just lots of other places to try to find a living wage and employment that they can survive on.

AC: Do the kids that graduate now, do they do that too?

Manns: I think most of them do. I think, you know, it’s just kind of, I think a lot of them, of course now the lees college here is now a part of 54:00UK [University of Kentucky] and the Hazard Community College has something to do, I’m not sure exactly how. I know it goes through UK, but there is a four-year program there. There’s two or three different areas and the nursing program is still there, but the lot of the majority of the students go to Morehead or to eastern or UK, and once they get out like that and, you know, get exposure to the different areas and stuff. You know, they end up moving that direction because there’s just, there’s just not, there’s not much available around here and, you know, it’s kind of like it’s almost, I don’t know how to describe it. You know, we have Wal-Mart and a couple grocery stores and that’s about it. Everybody pretty much goes to Lexington or to another area to shop unless it’s just for something, you know, that you need. You know at Wal-Mart or something because there’s just not that much available. You don’t have that much of a selection. 55:00There’s a couple of clothing stores and just a couple of grocery stores, Wal-Mart, and that’s about it. So, it’s, you’re very limited on selection and we don’t even have a car lot here anymore. we used to have two or three. we had like a Chevrolet dealer, a General Motors and then a ford dealer and those are all gone now, so there’s just not, not a whole lot available.

AC: When did those leave?

Manns: It’s been, well, the General Motors one has been gone about four years, but the Ford, the Ford one has been gone for about ten years or so and it’s just. You know, you have to go to another county to buy a vehicle. There’s a couple little used car lots, but not, you know, not actually a dealer to where, you know, you can buy a new vehicle. There’s some in Perry County and some in Wolfe County, but not here. 56:00So, it’s just kind of, when the coal industry left a lot went with it.

AC: What do you think the biggest changes have been in Jackson since you moved here?

Manns: Well, it’s come and gone, but the coal industry was the big thing here for so long. It’s just the whole economy, you know, when people are making fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year and several hundred people employed by that, it makes a big difference on the whole economy. You know, if there’s just been a whole lot of things that have came [come] in and left, you know, as the coal industry came and left, it just, there was just so much more money poured into the area and you know that’s, that’s completely and totally gone now. And I know that’s probably the biggest change. 57:00Several things that have come in in this area, besides that there, there’s trust, Joyce, McMillan, or whatever it is the, in Perry County. Places to find jobs if you want to travel like that, but it’s just, there’s just not a lot to do period so I think, I think a lot of it just evolves around. You know the economy is just very low and I know, I work with family support office which deals with food stamps and medical assistance and KTAP (Kentucky Transitional Assistance Program), which is just a money payment for children in the home with either one or both parents not there. There’s a money payment for it and the goal is to get these people to try to become self-sufficient through training, education, or whatever, job experience, and 58:00it’s so hard because we just don’t have much to train them on or to give them experience. You can’t start out with experience, a lot of places require, you know, experience or some type of knowledge of what you’re going into and it’s just very difficult. I think the educational system here. . .

End of tape one, side two Beginning of tape two, side one Manns:. . . Not as good as it should be even though a lot of people won’t admit it, the county was run political, you know, by politics for years. It was just, a few people had a lot of authority, and you know, it was just like, you know, you do this, or you’ll lose your job, or if you want a job you have to go to this person. And so, but you know, that’s, that’s kind of gone by the wayside. It’s not as nearly as much as it used to be but I can remember, 59:00used to be if you wanted a state job, you know, you went to the family and--. You know, they had a hotline to the governor’s office in Frankfort and it was just kind of you know that was the people that kind of ruled the goings on in the county. But that’s one thing that has changed and that’s definitely for the better you know. Now it’s not so much who you know, but what you know. I mean a lot of times now I think you get a job on your merit or your capabilities rather than what influence you might have through somebody else, so that’s good, but now that was a big hinderance to a lot of people. I think, you know, some years back but that has changed and that’s definitely a positive thing. I think there’s a lot more emphasis being placed on education and a lot of programs have come through here, this habitat for humanity 60:00and there’s a lot of people that live in substandard housing, it’s just, they really need home improvements and I think there’s been a lot of programs that have helped people to know that they can make a better life for themselves and I think that’s helped some. But there’s been, you know, a lot of changes in just people’s lifestyles, I think. of course there’s still some that haven’t changed, but that’s just life, I guess.

AC: What sorts of things did you do for fun when you were growing up, 61:00I guess in Dayton?

Manns: Things I did for fun. well, I was in Girl scouts. Of course we did all kinds of things then. seems like now all you think about in Girl Scouts is things like selling cookies and things like that, but we did, we did lots of fun things. I guess they still do that to earn badges and all that, but we did things that I thought were, were a good influence or made you realize that a lot of people might not have been as lucky as you were or as blessed as you were. We did a lot of things with low-income people or elderly people, or handicapped people and you know, of course we did, we did a lot of things 62:00that was just kind of enriching your life, i think, or making you feel good by doing something for somebody that was you know, not as fortunate as you were. But then we had a lot of fun things like camping trips, and we had, we would sew things, make things, cook things, just all kinds of things like that. and I was involved in a lot of things with my church youth group, and we did things too. We always raised money for a good cause for crippled children or Easter Seals or missionaries, you know, things like that. So, there was a lot of things with the church, you know, we’d go on a lot of trips, and you know, sing, and just do a lot of things like that that were, things that elderly people would enjoy or, you know, things like that. So, i don’t know, there was a lot of things that I was involved in at school too. I was a cheerleader, believe it or not so 63:00[laughing] we, yeah, we’d go to football games and, I don’t know, there was just a lot of things there that these groups of kids that would just go. When we lived in town there was little restaurants all around, you know. We had kind of our little hang out from the high school that you could, you know, go over there, and get burgers and fries and the jukebox was going and--. You know, people were dancing and all kinds of stuff like that and there was just, it seemed like there was a lot of things to do up there that--. Then we came down here, you know, with it being so spread out, you know, it’s just not, just not something you could do. You know like you can in a town or something but, there were a lot of fun things to do, and I spent so much time with my one friend, and it was a big change when she was no longer in my life.

AC: It’s 64:00good you guys still keep in touch.

Manns: It is, yes. Yeah, I would miss that if we didn’t.

AC: Did you ever have to do any farming or gardening or any of that stuff when you moved back here?

Manns: We raised our garden because as I said, we didn’t have a lot of income. Dad had a little bit of income from where he retired from General Motors, but it was, it was just like a part of a--. You know, he hadn’t worked there that many years to get full benefits so we had to do a lot of our gardening and all that to grow things to can and preserve, you know, to carry us through the winter and all that. So, actually we didn’t do any farming or anything like that, but we did raise a garden, you know, with vegetables 65:00and all that and of course we had, we did have chickens and you know, meat. We somehow ended up getting a freezer and we would, after mom started working and after a little while after we moved down here and we were able to, to do a little more and we got, you know we, we’d have a hog killed or buy half of a beef or something like that, you know, and put in the freezer. So, but we, like our vegetables and all that, we grew those and canned them and preserved them and whatever for the wintertime, so that’s about as much farming as I ever got involved in. Never really did do much of it. It’s hard work, I’ll tell you that. It is, yep, it’s kind of a year-round job, almost for the people who grow tobacco because they have to, in the springtime--. Used to be they did it a lot differently 66:00than now, but used to be they would actually light a fire and burn off the grass and everything that was, you know, growing on top of the ground and then make a place for a tobacco bed that they, where they actually would plant the seeds and throw the plants that--. They would actually pull up and transplant then, but then they’d have to make sure that it’s plowed, that it’s leveled off and then that the rows are made and that it’s planted and then you gotta always go through and weed it. And after it got so big, you had to top it, you know, take the top off so the bottom leaves would grow bigger and what not.

AC: Wow.

Manns: So, there’s a lot to it, and then you have to cut it, and then you have to hang it in the barn, let it dry, and then you have to take it down. Take the leaves off and then, you know, get it ready to take to market so it, it takes a lot of months out of the year to, to do the whole crop. And it’s, you know, it’s very hard physical labor. 67:00And it’s the same thing with growing corn or whatever, you know. It’s a, it takes a long time to get the fields ready and then to plant it and you have to go and fertilize it and hoe it, get the weeds out and plow it and you know, gather it and after it gets dried out put it in the barn or whatever, so it is hard work. A lot of people don’t realize how much it takes, you know, to grow things like that, but. . . it’s something I don’t think I’d ever want to be a farmer [laughing]. it’s too hard work.

AC: do people around here still do that?

Manns: Uh-huh.

AC: Still grow tobacco and stuff?

Manns: Yeah, they do. There’s all this big thing about tobacco and smoking and all that and I’m not sure how it’s going to turn out. They’ve talked about possibly doing away with tobacco, like there’s a quota or there’s 68:00an allotment you can, depending on how much land that you have and how big your acreage is and all that, about a maximum amount that you can grow. And they’ve talked about trying to buy out a lot of farmers and all that, you know, just like a lump sum and then they wouldn’t be allowed to grow it anymore. So, I don’t know how that’s going to go, but I know there’s just so much talk and concern with cancer and you know, all the things that are a result of the tobacco. And for years and years tobacco was the major crop around here and they still do grow quite a bit of it but not, I don’t think as much as they used to. People just don’t deal with it anymore, but it was the major crop here for years and years.

AC: 69:00So, when you moved back to Jackson, was your family your only relatives around here? I mean, is that where your grand, I mean, your grandmother was here right?

Manns: Yeah, actually when we moved down here my grandmother moved back here, but then she got married again and she lived probably ten or twelve miles away from us, but mom’s parents lived up here. But I was never as close to mom’s parents as I was to dad’s parents. And then it wasn’t too long after we moved down here that both mom’s parents died so I didn’t really, you know, spend that much time around them, but that was about the only ones. Most of the others are scattered around away from here. most of them in Kentucky or in Ohio, but they’re away from here, so we didn’t have a lot of relatives or anything 70:00around here. [coughs] AC: So, you never really got to know any families that lived near you because no families really lived near you? [laughing] Manns: Not really--didn’t have, actually I guess the one, one family member that, that we were closest to was my dad’s great-aunt that was my grandfather Lawton Hatton’s sister. She lived in Wolfe County. She’d come and see us quite often, but we really didn’t have any other relatives other than her. But of course, she grew up on the farm up there, you know at the homeplace that was my grandfather’s homeplace. So, she you know, was quite familiar with, 71:00you know, everything up there but she’s about the only one that we had down here. It’s kind of a small family. Mom’s got a large family, but they all lived away. So, we didn’t really have a lot of contact with them. as I said, my mom’s parents both died from, soon after we moved out here so. . . [coughs] AC: Were you ever aware of any real poverty in the county when you were young here?

Manns: when we first moved here [coughs]?

AC: Yeah.

Manns: Excuse me. [coughs}

AC: We can take a break if you need to.

Manns: let me get just a cough drop.

AC: okay.

Manns: sorry [coughs]. 72:00I think this will help. When we first moved down here, I guess I thought it was so different because we were, I was used to having as I said heat. We had gas heat, we had you know, water in the house. We had a bathroom and all that and it was, it was just a different lifestyle totally. We had a car, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t in real good shape. And even then, when gas prices were nothing like 73:00they are right now, we didn’t have a lot of money to buy gasoline and we always had to have insurance on a vehicle and all that. So, I can remember the one thing that, that I always thought, because we had to spend all this time in the house and in one room and we couldn’t go any place or do anything and I can remember thinking, “we’re so poor.” I know the house was not in good repair at that time either and in the night when it would snow, and the wind would blow. It would blow the snow in around the windows and on, on the top of our covers, you know, you could shake them in the morning and shake the snow off.

AC: Oh my gosh.

Manns: It was really cold, and I can remember thinking then, it was just so different, and I thought. I mean, just the change from going from having a lot of comforts and, 74:00just, I mean not--. We didn’t live a lavish lifestyle in Ohio, but we did have a few more things than we had down here, and I know that a lot of people around this area just don’t, a lot of them don’t work, or they don’t hold down a public job. Some of them will, will farm or do some kind of logging in the woods or, something that’s just like a part-time job or something and they, they do raise a lot of their own food with gardens and a lot of them raise their pork or their beef or whatever for their meat and it’s just really, really different. You know, to move down here and live in an area like this. There is a lot of poverty here. There are a lot of houses that, that just, well I give through work, a lot of times 75:00I give home visit[s] and some of the houses that, you know, some of those people live in, they lived in them, you know twenty or thirty years ago, and they just aren’t insolated and some of them aren’t insolated at all. They have a lot of either heating stoves or kerosene heaters or something like that and a lot of those are given through programs, federal aid, and all that. You know, and it’s just, it’s just a very poverty-stricken area, you know, it’s kind of like there’s a stigma that goes with living in Appalachia and that’s kind of where we are. It really gives you a reality check to see some of the homes in this area. And a lot of children in school, 76:00there’s just a lot of problems with, even though a lot of people get food stamps and all that, they still, children are, they’ll eat a lot of junk food or, you know, not nutritious meals and I’m not sure if the parents don’t really know it if—. I know a lot of them are eligible for food stamps and all that they, they just spend so much money on not, not you know well balanced meals and nutritious things. There’s just a lot of money spent on snacks and sweets and soft drinks and things like that rather than meats and vegetables and salads and fruits and milk and juices and all that. So, it’s, there’s a lot of problems here that I think education could help but poverty is very high 77:00here. There’s a lot, a big majority of the people in one county are on public assistance. So, that’s a real problem, I think.

AC: Do you think there’s anything that could be done to change that?

Manns: Well. . .

AC: Or is that too big of a question? I don’t know.

Manns: No, I think with welfare reform and things that have happened lately, and again, this is just a lot of things that, that I work with and that I can see changing. There have been time limits placed on the receipt of [receiving] benefits and I think, I think it’s a good idea for welfare or, or money payments or any type of help 78:00from the government to be a steppingstone, not as a way of life. to learn that this is not a way of life that can continue. So, the state of Kentucky opted to, to allow people to receive five years or sixteen months in the lifetime of an adult receiving for a child and I think obviously if you are illiterate, in five years you can’t be a brain surgeon, but if you start at whatever level you’re on and try to improve. I think it’s good to note that here is this thing that can help me, but I can’t except that as a way of life for, you know, ongoing infinite amount of time. I think that I think education and limited benefits, 79:00you know, are a good place to start. Because I just think, actually if you look at a person that is receiving benefits there is no initiative, there’s no, there’s nothing that would make them. Well, they’re better off to stay on the system is what I guess I’m trying to say. Because they can get food stamps, they can get medical assistance, they can get money payment, they can get help with their rent, they can get help with their heating cost. So many things and you know, just like with the medical costs, it’s a better than a lot of, than most insurance policies. It covers a lot more than the insurance that I pay for, and you know, that’s free.

So, you know I just, I think that a whole lot of these government programs are very good, but then on the other hand I think it’s a good idea for people to realize that, 80:00you know, you’ve got five years, you’ve got to do something better. You know, you’ve got to prepare yourself to become self-sufficient. So, I know there’s been a lot of programs that have come about and things that have changed and I think we’ve helped a lot of people, but on the other hand there, it’s kind of sad to say, but I think there are a lot of people that are kind of stuck in a rut and they’re happy there. Or they don’t really care whether they make a better life for themselves. And if they don’t have the motivation, there’s not a whole lot you can do. So, I guess what we say is we’re going to give you your chance and here it is, you know, you’ve got five years, do what you can with this then we’ll go from there. So, I really don’t, you don’t have a lot of answers as to how do you go about doing that other than, I just think through education and 81:00just showing people that there is a better way to live. And I think a lot of it, we deal with a lot of programs with the children at schools and, you know, we go in and say, “how much do you think it’s going to cost to live for a month?” You know, and it’s, “oh, you know, 300 dollars or something.” Some of them say a thousand dollars but then you add up, you pay rent, you pay, you know, whatever, your gas, your food, and you know, they’re surprised at how much it will cost for a family of whatever. You know, you go ahead and give them a number and figures like that, you know, how much money would you have to make to feel like you can get what you need, and you know, if you have children [coughs], to take care of them and their education and all that. It’s kind of like sometimes they will catch on and like, “man! that’s unreal!” and I don’t think they really, they really realize, you know. Because a lot of times their parents, 82:00it’s a generation-to-generation cycle of welfare and used to be we’d have cases that were thirty or forty years old that would go through three or four generations of people. Because, you know, you could get benefits from the time a child was born until they were eighteen. So, if it’s more beneficial to stay on the system then why would you want to do better? So, I think that sometimes it’s more of a hinderance than a help after a certain period of time. I think there could be changes, things like that, that could help. Of course there’s always lack of employment in an area, a rural area like this. It’s, it’s very difficult because if you go to work at McDonald’s they want to give you maybe two or three hours a day, four or five days a week and if you live out in the county, you know, thirty miles one way, 83:00with gasoline prices the way they are it’s not, it’s not to your benefit to, to work like that so. . . It’s a difficult problem.

AC: I hate to end you on a bad note, but I’m always worried that the tape’s going to run out soon [laughing].

Manns: Okay, okay.

AC: But thank you.

end of interview