:Well—
Hellard:Side two—side two, tape twenty-one.
:—you know I was worried for a while and I’m still worried that the economic
issue was not going to hurt Reagan as much as it could have or should have. In a sense, a lot of Americans are—are inured to recessions because we have, thanks to the policies of the Democrats, enough built-in stabilizers so that even Reagan hasn’t been able to kick the props from under them and therefore we don’t have the same misery and suffering in recessions and depressions that we once had—unemployment compensation, we still have some food stamps and welfare, he’s hurt them and chipped them away and deprived a lot of people but they’re the most impotent part of the population politically—vote the least, are most turned off from the whole political process and now that we have a recovery, there’re a least fraction of the people—there is at least a fraction of the people who say, “Well, Reagan’s giving us a recovery,” and not forget—not remembering that he also gave us the recession and the Democrats have a hard time making a sufficiently convincing issue out of the question “Was this trip necessary?” The—but I—as I say, I was wondering—I was, you know, beginning to think that the economic recovery might just barely save Rea—Reagan’s bacon. I don’t believe he’s going to be a big winner this time, but I had about concluded that the chances favored a marginal victory for him. I’m not sure that the foreign policy issue isn’t going to complicate things enough to make it much more doubtful. If we’ve got American lives still being lost in Lebanon and the multiplicity of the commitments that he’s got us in of a military nature—Central America, Grenada, which is a little of the same thing, the Middle East, the European missiles—when you add them all up, it’s a—he’s risking what [Lyndon B.] Johnson—American leaders in the past risked—over-commitment—commitment of the resources of the country beyond what the people are willing to sustain and that’s both emotional as well as financial and military. But the Democrats are still far from putting their best foot forward. Almost everybody agrees—even conservatives, liberals, Democrats, Republicans—that the problem of the out-year deficits, continuing deficits, will ultimately bring about a grave danger of aborting this recovery and either bringing about a revival of inflation or a new recession and yet the Democrats have no united front on what to do about it. The Democrats passed a budget that called for seventy-two billion dollars in new t—additional taxes and revenues over the next three years and now they’re down to eight billion. They were calling for—I’ve forgotten—twelve or fifteen billion in def—in expenditure cuts, now they’re down to four or five billion. I think it would be bad for the country and certainly bad for the Democratic Party t—to put off facing that issue until after the 1984 election and yet I don’t see—the Democrat who came nearest to facing some of those questions has absolutely no chance and there are things that I would—reservations I’d have about him and that [Ernest] Hollings. He’s got a way—a plan to deal with the budget that—and the fiscal crisis that is pretty bold, but the rest of them are just nibbling around the edges and consequently, there are a lot of people that think Reagan made a lot of mistakes, that he’s brought us through a lot of troubled times and a lot of unnecessary suffering but we’re beginning to improve economically and they—they don’t see the Democrats having a clear-headed vision of any solution.Hellard:Well, do we even have a candidate? You know—
:Well—
Hellard:—a—a—a candidate that appeals to a majority of the party?
:—oh, I think—I think [Walter] Mondale probably could appeal to a majority of
the party. Your question is will he appeal to a majority of the country. [laughs] You know, I think Mondale represents—more than any of the candidates, represents the center of gravity in the party, but you know, that—that’s not—a candidate, to win, has to be fairly close to the central—center line of the country and there may be a feeling by enough people who are not partisans that—that Mondale is too much old-hat and that he has not any new answers, any new solutions. I don’t say he can’t win, but he’ll have a hard time winning and yet I think it’s going to be awfully hard to defeat him for the nomination. Think he’s got a terrific impetus going, well-organized, reasonably well-financed. I—I just—you know, I doubt whether [John] Glenn is going to be able to stand up under the rigors of a campaign for which he’s, in some ways, not suited. Now, if Glenn were the nominee, he’d be pretty strong, although he’s also vulnerable in some ways. Truth is that there are a lot of issues Glenn doesn’t know much about, he’s been somewhat confused, he voted for most of Reagan’s programs in the first congress. I don’t know, I may be a little bit like my friend Joe Rowan. I said, “Whom are you for, Joe?” He said, “Well, if we had a deadlock convention, we might draft [Edward] Kennedy.”Hellard:Well, you know, Paul Harvey accused—accused Kennedy of that ploy some
time ago, to be very coy and stay in the background and—and work for a deadlock convention.:He would be stronger if he came out as a draftee in a deadlock convention than
he would be running, but again, that would be such a bitter campaign—I don’t know. It may be some of the bitterness has—has assuaged, but I—I—I don’t know. Kennedy would be both a very strong candidate and a very weak candidate if I may—if I can make myself understood.Hellard:Uh-huh.
:He would mobilize forces that nobody else could mobilize. He would engender a
lot of love and a lot of hate. I think, on the whole, he’s had a bum rap. I think Kennedy is really a better man than he sometimes gets credit for being. I think he has his weaknesses but I think—I think he’d make a strong, good president, but I—I think an awful lot of people that hate his guts and of course he does have moral flaws and weaknesses, which I think may have very little to do with the man’s qualities of statesmanship. I’m not sure that great men are very often good men, but on the other hand, if the issue is Reagan and he’s on the defensive, it may mean that a candidate that doesn’t appear to be strongest in the world could beat him and—and I don’t think he’s a cinch. I’d say the odd slightly favor him, but it’s going to be a close race. I—I’m not sure that a candidacy by Jesse Jackson wouldn’t help the Democrats. If Jesse Jackson—it all depends on how his candidacy terminate. You know, he knows he can’t win and everybody else knows he can’t win, but he could mobilize voters and get them registered and to the polls that would make a critical difference, because if black people and poor people and Hispanic people voted in the same proportion as middle-class white people, we wouldn’t have had a Republican president in the last forty years. Now, Jesse Jackson could do a lot to mobilize what he calls his rainbow coalition, but only if he ends his candidacy with what he now says he wants—but which I’m not sure he does want—which is the—what he calls a contract between the poor and the blacks and the Democratic Party, but I think he could register millions of new voters. He could bring about a—a revival of interest in the political process. But if he ends on a sour note, it could have a very adverse effect and I’m just not clear because there’s so much about him that I don’t quite trust that I just don’t know. But I can see a situation in which he could make the difference and his candidacy could make the difference between a Democratic and Republican victory. Who would Martha Layne—whom would she support for the presidency?Hellard:Just a guess—and that would be Glenn.
:Well, they’re kind of alike.
Hellard:I—think he would—I think she would feel that he would fly better here in
than Mondale.:And he probably would.
Hellard:Would you see Carter playing any significant role or does he have any
significant role left to play?:Not much. He’s for Mondale, but I don’t think—you know, they had a meeting in ,
I got an invitation and couldn’t go, last week, to introduce Mondale to a lot of southerners and it was sponsored by Bert Lance and Jimmy Carter and the former governor of and Jim Neal of and I’ve forgotten who else. It is interesting that in the convention, when they took the vote, you know, that’s not a binding convention, that Mondale ran [Reuben] Askew a very close second and ran well ahead of Glenn. Now, ’s not a typical southern state, but I—I don’t know. I think how Mondale would run in the south will depend a lot on Jesse Jackson, that’s what I’m talking about. If you look at the southern states that Carter lost to Nix—to Reagan, practically every one of them the margin of victory was small enough so that a big black registration and a big black vote would have turned the tide. Now, I don’t know. Is Mike Moloney active in Mondale’s campaign?Hellard:Uh-uh, not that I know of.
:I understood Donna [Moloney] was doing some work for Mondale.
Hellard:Well, you know, they’re—they’re supposed to be getting a divorce.
:Really?
Hellard:Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I—that is street talk, I have no personal knowledge
of it, but I—I know Mike’s lost about forty pounds and slimmed down and—:Does that mean he’s got a girlfriend?
Hellard:Well, that’s what I’m told.
:When they slim down [laughing], they’ve usually got a girlfriend [laughing].
Hellard:That’s what I’m told.
:Who is it?
Hellard:I don’t know. I don’t know.
:Well, I heard some talk about his having a girlfriend; I didn’t realize it was
a divorce and I’m trying to think who I heard. I heard the name. Wouldn’t she probably leave here?Hellard:Donna?
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:I would think so.
:You know, she has no ties here except him.
Hellard:But I’ll say this for Mike—he—he has been happier and more open and more
friendly and just generally more congenial the last three or four times I’ve seen him than all the time I’ve known him.:I saw him at meeting of this Chamber of Commerce task force on education and he
was absolutely like a charged man.Hellard:So, whatever’s happened, I’m—I’m glad for him because he seems like
he’s—he seems like right now he’s a happy person.:I’m trying to think whose name I heard—it was somebody. You know he’s had kind
of a charmed life politically.Hellard:Well, he’s never had any real opposition, has he?
:That’s my point [laughs]. Isn’t that a charmed life?
Hellard:That’s a charm [laughs].
:That’s the best charmed life I can think of a—no Republican opposition, no
Democratic opposition.Hellard:How much of that is—is a carryover from his daddy?
:His daddy always had bitter opposition.
Hellard:But he always win, didn’t he?
:Yeah, but just barely. Not always just barely, but—hell, he won the—his first
race for the Senate he beat Rod Keenan in the primary by twenty votes and he won in the general election by a hundred and then he—trying to think who ran—John Y. Brown [Sr.] ran against him one time and that was fairly close, but not too close. Then he had a close race in the fall. About the only race Dick ever won—races he ever won easily were his races for his house district. But Dick had—you know, Dick—Dick had enemies in h—in Fayette County; Dick was not—and after all, Mike’s been running—you know, hell, Dick’s been dead nearly twenty years. But—and you know, both Mary Mangione and Dicky, who died, had much more of Dick’s personality than Mike has. But I think—don’t you—that, on the whole, he’s made a right good Senator?Hellard:I think one of the best.
:I think one of the best.
Hellard:I think he—I think he—most of the time, I’m in agreement with him. I
don’t know whether that makes him one [laughs]—one of the best or not—:Well, that’s the only way, you know, to judge.
Hellard:—but I—I’ve never—his—the only thing I’ve ever heard Mike really
criticized for is his gruffness or personality.:That’s it, just rough tongue—
Hellard:—and—
:—sourpuss. He’s never been that way to me.
Hellard:He’s always been—he’s always treated me nicely since I went to work there.
:He’s always been nice to me and he’s helped me in the legis—if I had anything I
was interested in, he always tried to help me and I’ve always—do you think his divorce will hurt him politically?Hellard:No, sir.
:Never does anymore.
Hellard:No, I—you know.
:Very seldom does any ( ) [Hellard coughs].
Hellard:And especially not in an urban district.
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:Now, look—you can look at Matt Blackerd, divorced, what, four times—
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—and that certainly wasn’t his downfall.
:And it—yeah. Oh, no. Hell, as a matter of fact, what was his downfall was just
doing it too long and getting drunk and in wrecks, things like that. And you know, don’t you think Mack—Matt just basically just wore himself out?Hellard: He did—he did, but I’m told that he hasn’t had a drink now for almost a year.
:Oh, for god’s sake, I hope he doesn’t run again though.
Hellard:Well—
:because it’d be bad if he lost and bad if he won.
Hellard:I’m—I’m hoping we can bring some unity to the primary, I’m not sure we
can do it.:Well, what—what would be your idea?
Hellard:I’d like to see Denny run. I’d like to see Denny run unopposed or at
least by nobody—:Do you really think he’d make a strong executive though?
Hellard:Oh, there are people around who’d make—do a better job, but—
:You know, I like Denny fine, but I just, I don’t know, he—he—he—plays it so safe.
Hellard:He can win.
:Yeah, but then what’s going to happen in that fiscal court? You know, the
county government’s become a pretty important thing now.Hellard:Oh, it is—it is.
Prichard:It’s not like it used to be when the magistrates just sat around and
fooled with a little road money and things like that and the county government is a damned important thing now and it needs—what kind of a mayor do you think Paul’s made?Hellard:Oh, I haven’t paid that much attention, but I hear—I don’t hear too many complaints.
:No and I don’t believe he’s been as much under Buzzy’s thumb as some people
thought he would be. I don’t know. Isn’t he kin to Buzzy?Hellard:Seems to me there is a—there’s a—a distant kin there, but I don’t think
it’s close. I think if Denny wants to be a good judge he’d be a good judge. He’s going to need some help.Prichard:Well, if he’s going to be a good judge he’s got to get a little iron in
his veins, that’s what I’m thinking of and, hell, and the problem with a judge is to manage the fiscal court without being managed by it and—and in Jenny’s case it’s been just antagonism and hostility which doesn’t get her anywhere, but you know really, if you’re going to have Denny for county judge executive—and I like him, I’m sure I would probably be for him—but I wish to Christ somebody would—would—would get to work and try to get some better magistrates because you know they aren’t all that good.Hellard:I kind—trying to think who—I’m trying to who’s on—on the fiscal court.
:Oh, what is it? C. D. Wilson.
Hellard:I don’t know. I know Harold Carmichael is my man.
:Well, Harold’s Republican.
Hellard:But, I mean he represents my district.
:He’s not the worst fellow on there is he?
Hellard:Oh no.
:Pretty high class fellow.
Hellard:No, Harold was—Harold’s not the smartest man around, but he—I think he,
you know, would try to do the right thing.:Pretty honorable, isn’t he?
Hellard:Yes sir.
:And—
Hellard:The only Republican, I guess, on there.
:Yeah, I don’t know—I don’t know that much about it. C. D. Wilson—
Hellard:Well, I— C. D.’s kind like a Frances Jones Mills—how in the hell do you
get rid of him?:That’s right.
Hellard:You know?
:And let’s see, who else is on there? Oh, Buzzy’s brother-in-law—
Hellard:Dick ( )
:Yeah.
Hellard:If he would—if Dick just exercised his own mind and think a little bit
he—he wouldn’t be bad.:Yeah, but Buzzy votes him.
Hellard:And then there’s Midway.
:Oh, you know, kind to the Parrish’s.
Hellard:Rouse.
:Which—yes, one of the Rouses—Ike Rouse.
Hellard:Ike Rouse, right.
Prichard:Well, Ike’s all right, but he’s—he’s like all the Parrishes—kind of
hard headed—but he—he’s all right and—Hellard:I don’t know how you make people, well, it is an educational process ( )
:Oh yeah, and you’ve got Matthews.
Hellard:—to make people realize how important the fiscal court is.
:You’ve got Matthews from out at the big subdivision.
Hellard:Well now, he may—he may well warm up to judge.
:Well, I’d a whole lot rather have Denny than him.
Hellard:I would too.
:I a whole lot rather—I—it isn’t that I don’t like Denny—I do like him—
Hellard:I understand.
:—I’ve always liked him ever since I’ve known him when he was a boy and I like
him fine. I think he’s an honest fellow and a good fellow, but Denny, you know, doesn’t like to take stands too hard and I was a little disappointed in Mills’ campaign that he never really tried to get the party to do anything—didn’t differentiate him from a whole lot of other people, but—I’m trying to think who some of the other magistrates are—hell, there’s eight of them.Hellard:Well, I think—I think that’s all of them.
:Well—
Hellard:You got Rouse and you got, who’s from—
:Is Turner still on?
Hellard:Turner’s still on from ( ) then who’s from ?
:Mmm.
Hellard:Harlan Whitley.
:Harlan Whittaker.
Hellard:Whittaker.
:Well, he’s not a bad fellow is he?
Hellard:No—no.
:He’s a pretty decent man.
Hellard:And then you’ve got , C. D. Wilson, Matthews.
:There’s somebody else.
Hellard:Buffin.
:Buffin, yeah.
Hellard:That’s seven of them.
:Yeah, you counted Rouse?
Hellard:Counted Rouse.
:There’s one other one and I’m trying to think where—who’s from Nonesuch?
Hellard:That’s C. D.
:That’s C. D. Who’s from Mortonsville?
Hellard:That’s .
: yeah. Must be another one from around the vicinity of town.
Hellard:Oh, Alcoe.
:Yeah.
Hellard:Alcoe.
:Clusey.
Hellard:( ) Well, you think that’s enough for the day?
:Well, unle—whatever you say. What—what do you think of, you know, we’ve gotten
a lot of stuff in this tape. I—getting back to Martha Layne and her governorship—you know, just what direction do you see her taking, Vic? That’s wh—I—I don’t—that’s the thing that’s most, you know—Hellard:Well—
:—disturbed me about her is there’s no sense of direction at all.
Hellard:There—she has no overall program.
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:She’ issued all these papers—
:And they all sound like some kid had written them had written them in a backroom.
Hellard:Yeah, they don’t—there’s no centralized direction.
:God, I’ve been in enough campaigns over the last forty years to know how these
papers are gotten out and the difference is—crucial difference is—does the candidate know what’s in them or care what’s in them? You know, everybody has these position papers and—and they—they mean just as little as the paper they’re written on unless the candidate really knows and cares.Hellard:Yeah. I think the main this that she has absolutely no commitment—
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—to—to any, you know, program or—or—
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—plan. There was a—David Jones, of the Herald, called me last week
wanting some background information on her—:Has he run that piece yet?
Hellard:No, I think it’s Sunday and he said—said I don’t think she’s a visionary.
:Don’t think she’s a visionary.
Hellard:Yeah, and I said well, I don’t know whether it’s a prerequisite for
being governor of , but—you know, obviously she’s not a visionary.:Well—
Hellard:That’s why ( )
Prichard:Visionary is a little bit a word of a probit—when you say somebody is
visionary one usually means they—they have big dreams and little capacity to carry them out. I would prefer to say she has no vision—which is different, you know. I think a governor ought to have a vision. I don’t say all of them do. I think Brown has one, but it’s kind of a fuzzy vision. I don’t think Julian [Carroll] had much vision. I think Julian just played it by ear, although I think Julian, had he not been corrupt and had he not been so taken up with his ego and—and expediency, I think Julian has as much to make an outstanding governor as anybody, don’t you?Hellard:I would agree with that.
:I think Julian was well trained for the office.
Hellard:I think that was one of the great disappointments people suffered.
:That’s right.
Hellard:( )
:Julian went in with everything in his favor. He’d had long experience, he had a
good reputation in the legislature, he had—handled himself pretty well as a lieutenant-governor.Hellard:What do you want, a match?
:Yeah. He had a—he had a—he knew the budget, he knew state government. Got it?
Hellard:Yeah.
:But he just—he became totally corrupt and totally egocentric. I think that—
Hellard:I—I guess—
:I don’t think Ford had any vision exactly, but Ford had a great skill to adapt
himself to a situation.Hellard:He—he always impressed me as being willing to listen.
:That’s right.
Hellard:And had—had good people around, I think—
:And Ford knew that he didn’t know and when he knew that he didn’t know, he was
willing to listen for somebody that did know. Now, Ford also had these same moral flaws, but was a little slicker about it. I mean, Ford was about as corrupt as Julian, but—but he—he had—he had an aggrecore of people around him. You know, you take fellows like Don Bradshaw, Jim King, Billy Weston, Tommy Preston, Larry Greathouse, they were, you know, they—they—they—they were not perfect, but they were capable—and Jim Fleming—and they knew the score.Hellard:Now, there’s a—Jim Fleming’s name keeps popping up as—coming back to be
in the Collins administration.:Well, I’d rather see him than a lot of them, Vic.
Hellard:I’m just—I would you be interested to see if you knew that.
:Well, I imagine it’s just a question of wanting to come back home to his
family. You know, Jim’s bound to be kind of unhappy up there in . Jim’s basically a fellow. first, northern second, you know, he was raised up in northern —Hellard:Uh-huh.
:—married in , lived in all these years, family have ties in . I guess of all
that crew, Jim was one of the closest personally to me and, you know, he was—treated me with a good deal of kindness when Ford was in and so did Larry Greathouse, so did Billy Weston, but Ford—Ford is so highly political—he’s very skilled at it—but it’s seldom that you’ll ever see Ford taking an unpopular stand or crusading for some cause that—that a governor’s leadership might put across with—over great difficulties. Ford usually took the line, now when—in the political side he was very bold, I mean, he held the reins tight politically. He was very skilled at holding the party together and holding his organization together, keeping his constituencies in line or keeping himself in line with them. I don’t believe Ford will ever make another race for the Senate.Hellard:Interesting. Why?
:Don’t think he wants to face the issue of his financial peculations. I have
even heard a dream or a rumor, which I dismissed out of hand, but which is not wholly foolish, that Ford would resign at the appropriate time, let Beshear put Martha Layne in the senate—let her resign. I do not believe—Ford’s made a lot of money, he could unquestionably if he wanted to get him a big position with some trade association or lobbying group. He’s accumulated a lot of money in public life. You know when he—just take his insurance business—when he made his last financial disclosure as governor—he’s made twenty some thousand a year out it. Last year his financial disclosure showed a quarter of a million out of it—Hellard:Hmm.
Prichard:—and I don’t have any doubt that everybody that wants legislative
favors gets insurance from that agency and I don’t mean just in Kentucky, but Ford is not a fool and he—he—he keeps his ear to the ground, he keeps in close touch with his constituents. One thing we haven’t talked about is, do you think Brown is going to run against Huddleston?Hellard:I think that’s an option he’s looking at very closely.
:I believe Huddleston will beat him.
Hellard:I think is probably one of the best senators we’ve ever had—
:Not only that, but he’s pretty strong. Every poll shows him rating high. I
don’t believe Brown can buy this race and I don’t, you know, I probably like Brown better than you do. I have such mixed feelings about him. In some ways I have just absolute [laughing] contempt for him and in other ways I find him kind of likable. She may make him look like a better governor than he was.Hellard:She—Martha Layne or Phyllis?
:Martha Layne. Oh no, Phyllis never make him look any better than he was. Martha
Layne—she makes him look—may make him look better than he was. You know, he’s been such a mixture of good and bad and of a kind of unorthodox silly political skill and total childish political stupidity at the same time. I don’t know, he’s just different from anybody I ever saw or anybody else ever saw.Hellard:People in would agree with you.
:Uh-huh and yet, you know, I can’t be just bitter because he’s been pretty nice
to me in a lot of ways. I think he’s just as shallow as he can be, but you know, if he doesn’t run for some office what’s he got to do?Hellard:Be chairman of the national party.
:Well, he couldn’t ru—he—that’d be a disaster. That would be a disaster because
he has no sense of political organization. All he’d want to do is put on a telethon every month and the last one he put on was big bust.Hellard:Did they ever say how much they made?
:I think they made six or seven hundred thousand dollars.
Hellard:Good lord.
Prichard:He—he, you know, it—it’s, you know, he can be an asset for some party
chairman—like a Bob Strauss—who needs a promoter to go put on an event and even that he may have worn out, but he has no sense of party organization or how to hold the party together. You know, he has none of the talents of a Bob Strauss or a Larry O’Brien.Hellard:Well then, his—his only option may be to run for the senate, but then is
the grand jury investigation really over with yet?:Oh no, but that ain’t going to affect him. I—my opinion is there’s just so much
less there than meets the eye it’s going to be a pitiful joke. I think—what’s his name?Hellard:[James] Lambert.
:Lambert’s going to maybe get indicted for some small offense and I think the
rest of it’s just going to be pissing in the wind.Hellard:Well, it that’s the case, that—that would be the only thing I can think
of that would hold him back from running against .:I don’t think that grand jury is going to have a damn bit of affect. My guess
is—it’s just going to be a much—it’s a media hype. I—I think that boy from the New York Times came here and got on some kind of journalistic cocaine and wrote that story and created something out of thin air, pretty much. You know, I don’t have any doubt that Lambert may have sniffed a little cocaine, but I don’t think he’s a big dealer and I’m sure he’s screwed a lot of young girls, but you know, that’s all small potatoes by the stuff they’ve been putting in the paper and by the way, Bob Garrett agrees with me and Bob’s pretty hard-nosed.Hellard:You—he—he is, but he’s very fair.
:Uh-huh. I think he’s fair. Oh, I’m crazy about him, Vic. I—I’m wild about him.
I think he’s the best writer they’ve got on the paper, but they—Hellard:He and I—he and I sat through the Frances Jones Mills debate together
over at KET [Kentucky Educational Television].:Well, Bob’s very fond of you.
Hellard:Well, I’m very fond of him.
:He’s very fond of you, I know that.
Hellard:We had—we had a good time. I just had to go see that debate live.
:I couldn’t—I wo—Lucy and I watched it on the television and it just made us
sick to our stomach.Hellard:Well, it was—it was wonderful, Prich, to sit there and—and watch her
swell up like Jabba the Hut whenever the camera was off her—:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—and as soon as that camera back on that smile would come flashing back,
but she—Pat Shafer really stung her every time she said something about that $80,000 deficit, why—:Pat got to her, didn’t she?
Hellard:— would go clutching.
Prichard:Well, hell, but jus—you know, they stung her on everything, they stung
her on the letter to the bankers [laughing], they stung her on the deficit, stung her on the automobile and you know, the strange thing about it, she’s not attractive, there’s nothing glamorous about her.Hellard:Well, I—I’ve concluded about the only way we’re ever going to beat her
is get Dolly Parton to come and run. That might—that might do it.:Run Phyllis against her.
Hellard:Uh-huh, [laughing] lord.
:But—but, you know, the, you know, Drex is just as bad as she is except he’s not
as dumb. He isn’t very smart, but—Hellard:Well, Drex has that—that country boy air about him.
:That’s right.
Hellard:You know, and—
:Kind of a Mortimer Snerd.
Hellard:All the time she was attacking him why, she—he was just kind of dragging
his foot and saying, you know, saying, “Aw shucks, ma.”:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—and—
:Oh, he came off a lot less badly than she did, because Drex basically just
didn’t answer. He just went on and talked about how I’ve been here a long time and worked hard and I’m a good ole boy and—and he just didn’t answer his—his opponent. I thought Ann did pretty well, but she never really got to him the way that Shafer got to .Hellard:No, Shafer’s a cool customer.
:I never knew her before.
Hellard:I didn’t either—I didn’t either. She—she impressed me and after the
thing was over I introduced myself and she was very down to earth. She said, “I’m glad this thing is over with, you reckon I can go have a drink now?” And I said well, that’s my kind of candidate I guess.:She impressed me as a pretty sensible, levelheaded person—
Hellard:( )
:—with more than average sense, didn’t you think so?
Hellard:My impression exactly.
:And—she hasn’t got a chance, but hell, I wish she’d got a good vote.
Hellard:Well, it’s like Livingston said though, all the—all the adverse
publicity that gets seems to improve her vote.:What do you think—what do you think is going to be the situation? We haven’t
talked about this—with Grady as a possible candidate, almost a certain candidate and Steve Beshear. That’s going to be kind of like the attorney general’s race, isn’t it?Hellard:Yes sir and I know—I wouldn’t be too surprised to see Julian come back.
:I don’t believe he’ll ever do it. I think he’ll talk about it. If Julian
wan—really wanted to get back into politics he’s run against Hubbard. He could beat Hubbard. He could out Bible him and—and you know, all the practical people would go with him and he’d be a better congressman than Hubbard, but I—I will make this tentative prediction—that if Brown hasn’t found a political niche by that time he might run for governor again.Hellard:Well, I think that’s conceivable.
:And he’d run a better race for governor than he’d run for something else. I—I
think he’d have much harder time winning again.Hellard:What do you—what do you think about Bobby’s suggestion to—
:Abolish the office?
Hellard:Yes, sir.
:I’m in favor of it. I don’t see what’s the use of spending all that money just
to help somebody run for governor. —Hellard:That is—that is the only function it serves.
: hasn’t—I don’t think they’ve ever had a lieutenant-governor and—
Hellard:Well, what about superintendent?
:Oh, I think it ought to be appointed by a state board. I think all of those
appointive—legis—elective offices ought to be either abolished or made appoin—we don’t need a state treasurer. You know, what is it a state treasurer does that the finance department couldn’t do? You don’t need a state treasurer. Commissioner of agriculture ought to be an appointive office just like the secretary of natural resources or commerce. The—I think you can make a good argument to elect the attorney general.Hellard:Auditor.
:Hmm?
Hellard:Auditor.
:Yeah. Well, really, I’d have the auditor chosen like comptroller general of the
—elected by the leg—we had that in the constitution of ’66—elected by the legislature for a ten-year term.Hellard:Well, I’d be for that.
:I—I think that would make sense. You’d have independence. You’d certainly have
a better shot at some competence if the legislature and the governor either elected by the legislature or elected by the legislature from a list nominated by the governor or something like that and a long term. I don’t think an elected auditor gives you much guarantee of real independence. You get a Jim Graham one time and a George Atkins again and I’m not sure either one of is what you want. I—I think you need for an auditor to act sort of like a general accounting office in the federal government. I see—I see no objection to electing the attorney general, but I don’t see why you need—you don’t need secretary of state. Hell, you—that could be appointive. There’s no—no possible justification for electing the secretary of state and we’d have a lot better agricultural program if you had the governor name the commissioner of agriculture or secretary of agriculture, whatever you want to call him, just better year in and year out and then, I guess that’s all of them and the damn Railroad Commission, that’s a farce. Henry Spaulding is—what do you think Joe Barrow’s got in mind for this next session? Has he got any particular legislative kicks he’s on?Hellard:No, I think he’s—he’s terribly concerned about the budget and of course
he’s an education man too.:Why sure, his wife’s a teacher. I think we’re going to have to go—to a
substantial tax program if we’re going to do the things we’ve got to do in this state, particularly education and I don’t think we ought to go off on these gimmick taxes and these particular little taxes I think we ought to go right to the broad base taxes and the things that I would do are to enact Brown’s flat tax, but make the rate just a little bit higher—enough to raise some more money—and then I would go through and comb a lot of these special privileges out of the sales tax.Hellard:That’s been one of the biggest mistakes we’ve made.
:What?
Hellard:Is giving all the exemptions from sales tax.
:Why it’s just—it’s just shot through with them, isn’t it? And they serve no
purpose. You could raise—you could raise a very substantial amount of money by just taking these special exemptions out of the sales tax and having an income tax like Brown’s flat tax with about a five percent rate or something like that because you’ve got to go to but—the people have to pay taxes in the end and a broad base tax is the best kind and we’ve certainly got to end this corporate thing of Reagan’s in the state corporate income tax. The weakest phase of our tax system in now is the business end. Business is paying far less than its share. Ron Geary has got figures on that and—Hellard:Now, he’s a sharp young man.
:He’s one of Brown’s better people, isn’t he?
Hellard:Yes, I like Ron.
:Bron—Ron Geary, first place, he’s a good Christian boy that doesn’t wear it on
his sleeve. He’s a man of very high morals and very religious and yet he doesn’t go around parading it. He’s an intelligent fellow. He’s a serious fellow and don’t you think that people over in Revenue—the good career people over there’d respect him?Hellard:Yes, indeed.
:And he respects them and I—I’ve been—I’ve been an admirer of Ron’s since he
first came in state government.Hellard:Has he—has he given up the notion of running for mayor?
:Not totally. He’d be a good mayor, be better than you’re apt to get. I don’t
know. I think the, you know, Brown with, you know, that’s why he’s such a mixed bag. He had some good people and some terrible people, but I think Ron Geary is one of his better people. On the other hand, [laughing] Bob Offutt was—was awful. He—I think Bob Warren’s a first rate fellow, don’t you?Hellard:Yes, sir. Bob tells me he’s not going to stay though.
:I hear he’s going to work for W. T. Young.
Hellard:Well, I hope he does.
Prichard:One of the regents at Morehead [State University] asked me, within the
past week, what I thought of Bob as the president of Morehead and I think he’s be good.Hellard:Absolutely.
:One of the regents asked me that and I think that he’s brought—Bob Warren is a
good man, I think Grady Stum—Hellard:Now, he didn’t really bring Bob Warren though.
:No, George Atkins brought him, but he made him, put him in his cabinet, you got
to give him credit. I got a question mark about Fisher. Fisher isn’t all bad, but he’s an awful hard headed—Hellard:He’s a very officious man.
:That’s right. Wants to run everybody’s business. He hasn’t been totally bad,
but he—he—he’s not my style. Gene Smith’s terrible. Bruce Lunsford’s questionable. I think Grady Stumbo was a good appointment. I think—Hellard:What about Jackie?
:A total disaster—a total disaster. Greatest disappointment, I begged him to
appoint her, I was one of her chief hoots, she and Lucy have been friends for years, worked together in these causes and I’d rather had a coal operator. I’d rather had a good, responsible coal operator. I—I’m just absolutely—and the morale of that department is just wretched.Hellard:Oh, yes.
:Don’t you think the sort of good career people over there are just absolutely distressed?
Hellard:Oh, they’re leaving, trying their best to get out.
:Uh-huh.
[end of interview]
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