Hellard:Yeah.
Secretary:Okay.
:Fifteen, I mean.
Hellard:It’s all right. This is tape number twenty, Edward F. Prichard
interviews, October 26th, 1983, side one. Mr. Prichard, give me your views on the governor’s race, 1983.:Well—
Hellard:First, you all—you were a h—a big supporter of Harvey Sloane.
:Well, I was a—I was a long-time supporter of Harvey Sloane. I’ve known Harvey
Sloane ever since he came to . I expect that Barry Bingham and I were the first two friends that he made when he moved here in early 1960s, I can’t remember just the year, but it was—oh, ’64, perhaps, when he came to work in eastern Kentucky on that survey of children’s health conditions up in, I believe, Martin County. But he had an apartment in and sort of commuted between , where he was assigned to the state health department, and the field in . And he had been a friend of a woman I knew in Washington named Kay Halley, who came from Cleveland where her family owned a large department store, and she was the sister-in-law of Dr. Cryle of Cleveland—head of the Cleveland Clinic. And she was sort of a hostess and a close friend of Randolph Churchill’s over many years and—and sort of a figure. And so when came to , she either wrote or called me or perhaps both and told us—Lucy and me—about him. And used to come over and spend weekends at out place in . We had an old h—riding horse over there then and he used to go ride a while and he’s play softball with out children and we became very close friends. And so I have always been a supporter of ’s. I probably was a less enthusiastic supporter in some ways this year than I was four years ago, not because I like him any less but because I felt that there was something a little—a little different about him. Four years ago, he—he was the white knight; this time, he—he seemed to lack the coherence and cohesiveness that his campaign had before. That didn’t make me any—any less willing to be for him but I didn’t feel the sort of lift that I got four years ago. And I thought he made some strategic and tactical mistakes, which I’ve commented on elsewhere, but certainly I was a supporter and think I would be again. I was tempted by [Grady] Stumbo. I got to know Grady when he first came to . I had heard of him before, I never had really met him, but I’d heard of him before and people like David Hawp and Mark Landey and other people that I knew who had connections in eastern and in admired him very much. And I’d heard these good things about his work up there and his clinic and I was one of those that urged Governor [John Y.] Brown [Jr.] to appoint him as secretary of human resources and I worked with him during his tenure there. We consulted very frequently. He appointed me on a governor’s task force on the containment of health care costs and I admired him very much and when he came to me to talk about the governor’s race, I told him—I said, “If I were God and could pick a governor, I’d have a hard time choosing between you and Harvey.” But I said, “I have a long-time commitment to and I’m not going to break that commitment and I’m not going change,” and—and we ended that conversation on a very friendly note. And my two children, my two sons, both supported Grady in this race. My son Louis was extremely active for him, really was—had a rather prominent part in his campaign, but I stuck by Harvey and I attended meetings nearly every Sunday at his home where we had little strategy sessions, Governor [Bert T.] Combs and Bill Wester and Joe Terry, Jim King. We would discuss various issues and—and yet I had an ominous feeling about his candidacy somehow. My feeling was that he ought to win the race but that somehow it was going to be a very tight fit because I thought the—the—the—with the two candidates running, that Martha Layne Collins, with the contacts she’d built up in the small communities particularly and her personal acquaintance with so many people, cultivated so carefully over so many years, would have a base that would be hard to erode and that with two opponents—with one opponent, I think she would have been very easy to beat, with two opponents, hard to beat. But even with all of those adverse factors, I think could have won and won despite some mistakes he made in his campaign had not the governor entered the picture in the very last of the thing and had not this infusion of money come at the last phase of the campaign. And I think that moved Grady up enough to make it a tight three-way split and Martha Layne simply held the base that she had at the start. I think all of our polls showed that she probably got anywhere from two to three percent less of the total vote than she started out with the—a year before, which—it was enough to win.Hellard:Just for the record here, let me say that we have yet to talk
about—well, to talk completely about the [Wendell] Ford administration, the [Julian] Carroll administration, and the Brown administration—:That’s right.
Hellard:—but because this is current and on our minds, I want to talk about this
campaign today. How did you call—what was your strategy to handle the “woman” question? Or did you have a strategy for it?:Well, I think there was some differences of opinion. My strategy on handling
the woman question was to leave it alone, because it was my feeling that—you know, anybody that was going to vote against Martha Layne because she was a woman was going to do it anyhow. And I didn’t think it was either becoming or appropriate for Harvey Sloane to raise the sexist—to take the sexist side and I was outraged when his media consultant ran a commercial in which it showed Harvey on a firing range at the state police barracks in what was obviously a macho sort of episode. And it was the same thing, I knew, which this same consultant had used against the woman who was defeated by Governor Winter in Mississippi three years before and I didn’t like at all and I think the truth is that the woman issue—insofar as it affected the primary—hurt Harvey because that particular thing turned women off, but his stand on the abortion issue, I’m convinced, was enough alone to lose him the three thousand votes that was the difference between him and Martha Layne. And it was the stupidest political ploy that anybody ever did. He got the right-to-life endorsement and lost big in the counties where the right-to-life people were supposed to be strong and it lost him—well, it lost him votes and it lost him enthusiasm from among the—the women who are really what I call movement women, highly conscious of the women’s issue. Now Martha Layne’s strength among women wa—was not among the militant, activist, politically motivated type of women, but more the quiet women who liked attention, maybe some of the B and PW types who—who just looked on her as—as a woman that was comfortable and they were comfortable with her. And there wasn’t much you could do with them. As to the people who wouldn’t vote for a woman, I think that was really an exaggerated proposition, I doubt if there were that many and if there were, Harvey had nothing to gain by trying to make it an issue or even subliminally make it an issue.Hellard:Do you think Stumbo attempted to make it an issue or did he simply run
against Harvey Sloane?:I think he ran mostly against Harvey Sloane. I saw of no—in a sense, both
candidates tried to make leadership and issue and experience an issue and—and the records of themselves as an issue. And in that sense, you might call it a sort of secret woman’s issue. You know, was Martha Layne weak in leadership because she was a woman or weak in leadership because she’s just weak? Was she weak in leadership—was she lacking in experience because she didn’t have the guts to do anything in public life or was she lacking in experience because she was a woman and timid? Those are questions that, you know, I would answer in a different way. Some people might call that a sort of secret woman’s issue, I think it just related to her as a person. No, I think Grady shot primarily at , because they were shooting for the same constituency, Vic.Hellard:How do you account for Martha Layne’s poor showing in western , first
district? Obviously Carroll Hubbard can’t transfer his own popularity there ( ):Well, I’m not sure he’s got that much popularity to transfer [Hellard laughs].
I—I think—I—I think her weakness in the first district was really Stumbo’s strength. First place, there is a cons—much more a labor-oriented vote in the first district than many people realize. You take counties like Hopkins and Muhlenberg, McCracken, Christian, Logan—there—there’s some—there’s some labor votes scattered all around there and highly concentrated in some of those places. And in the counties that are generally accounted rural counties down in the far west, there a great many commuters. Then there’s and think of the people that commute from counties like Lyon and Livingston and Fulton and Hickman that can commute to Union Carbide in , commute to , and I think labor had a lot to do with it. But the second thing I think that helped Grady in the first district was his populism. The first district is sort of conservative, in some ways, on social questions, but it is also—got a whole—a lot of strain of populism. If you look to history of—of populism in Kentucky when you really had populism—the Populist Party—the biggest vote that the Populists got in Kentucky was the first and second districts—the second district then being a lot of what’s in the first now. So I think the combination of his populism, his anti-establishmentarianism and his ties with labor helped him a lot in the first district.Hellard:Well, do you see the—the first district now enthusiastically supporting Collins?
:Well, I don’t know how enthusiastically any district going to support anybody
in this race. I—I think she’ll carry the first district, but I should be surprised if she carried it by the kind of majority that Julian Carroll did or the kind of majority that—that it gives in a banner year, but I don’t think it’s going to be dramatically close.Hellard:Is Harvey Sloane actively supporting her and to what extent?
Prichard:We—we—well, he’s—he’s doing—he’s doing what a—what a good party man is
supposed to do—he’s made some speeches, he spoke somewhere in Louisville the other day, he’s attended various functions. I don’t think that he’s tearing his heart out for her.Hellard:How effective will it be in or the city of ?
:Well, I think less effective that it would be if he really was putting
everything he had into it. I don’t think he’s trying to cut her up, I don’t think he’s trying to beat her, I don’t think he’s trying to, you know, organize a secret vote, I just think he’s doing his duty and no more. And I—people in Jefferson County tell me they think the results are going to be close there and I know some Democrats—Sylvia Watson told me the other day she thinks [Jim] Bunning’ll carry it by a small majority. Now, I’d be surprised. I—I think the Republican part is pretty weak in Jefferson County as an organization and the Democrats, with all their jackassery in Jefferson County, still probably have some kind of a party organization and a party hold and if I had to make a guess, I would guess it’s be a fairly close result but that—but that Martha Layne m—might carry it a little bit, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he carried it a little bit.Hellard:Will the merger question interfere with the governor’s race?
:It might bring out a bigger vote and that ought to help the Democrats. The
anti-merger people are mostly Democrats. You know, the strength of the anti-merger people is in—in the south and southwest part of the county and in the west end among the blacks. Now, if they pour out, that’s—that’s going to be a labor-type vote and a black-type vote and that’ll help the—Hellard:Let me—let me light that for you.
:—and that’ll he—that ought to help the Democrats, oughtn’t it?
Hellard:Well, one would think so. How do you view her running in northern ?
:I think she’ll run better in northern than you might think. I think she’s got a
pretty good organization up there. I think Bunning’ll carry it just through local pride, you know, the Lord knows the—if there were ever was a group of people that is peculiarly conscious of locality and region, it’s northern . But I think she—she had unusual strength there in the primary—Hellard:Well, how would you—
:—but I think Bunning would carry it. Now, you know, all these things could be
just a little different. If Bunning really sweat northern , if he carried by a moderate majority, if he could run will in , if the first district fell off, it could be a much closer race than people think. But I don’t think the fifth district is going to come to give what it has to give. I think the fifth district is a very strange political animal. Despite the fact that they have eaten and been clothed and shod and fed by the Democratic party for fifty years, they are still Republicans and yet there’s an increasing tendency under the surface in state and local politics for the Democrats to make gains there. The traditional regional alliances are weaker then they used to be—the Democrats are weaker in the first, the Republicans in the fifth, in the sense that people will stray.Hellard:How would you describe Martha Layne Collins?
:I’m awful glad I have these restrictions [Hellard laughs]. I think she’s a
bland, petulant, narrow, small minded, timid eager beaver.Hellard:( )
:I think she—you know, perfectly nice, moral person.
Hellard:But somewhat of a shrew.
:Well, I think when you stick her she can be a shrew, yes. And I think she’s
shown that since the time I said it, I think she showed it in the debate with Bunning. I think when she’s pushed in a controversial or a tight situation, she tends to be a bit shrewish.Hellard:Given the times and say, the economy, what kind of governor will she make?
:Well, given any kind of times, I think she’d make a weak governor, you know. We
need a—we need a strong governor in good times, we need a strong governor in bad times. I think in—in bad times she will be a particularly weak governor because a governor in bad times has to make more unpopular decisions. A governor in good times is perplexed by how to cut the pie up, how to distribute the benefits of prosperity and of a burgeoning revenue. A governor in bad times is perplexed by the problem of who’s to suffer the misery. And I think that she’s going to have very hard time making decisive choices. Let’s take the question of education—with all the—the talk about, you know, not throwing money problems. There is no way that the quality of education can be dramatically improved in without massive infusions of new money and I cannot see her courageously facing up to that. And contrary to what some people think, I’m not sure that the legislature, at the proper time and in the final shove and push, might not be more willing to do it than she’d be. But without her leadership, they’ll never do it by themselves.Hellard:What kind of governor would Jim Bunning make?
:Oh, just a typical hard-headed Republican. You know, I think he’s be
conservative, fiscally prudent, not have many—not have many new ideas. You know, except for the fact that he’s kind of more abrasive on the surface than she is, I think he’d be just like she is only more so.Hellard:What about some of the other candidates on the ticket? What are you—what
are your thoughts on Steve Beshear?:Well, the Democratic ticket has much higher quality down the line that it has
at the top. I think Steve Beshear is a very brilliant fellow.Hellard:Would you describe him as a visionary?
:Not any more. I used to think so. I think he’s become, if anything, a little
too practical. Steve Beshear in the legislature was a hero of mine. I thought he was almost right on—was right on almost every issue. He was articulate, well educated and is bright. I think he’s extremely energetic, he’s a good organizer. I think he has a fine intellect, I think ambition, sometimes, has eaten away at principle as he’s been attorney general, not always. He’s done some—you know, his opinion on the Ten Commandments—well, it was the only thing he could do but it was—it was right, he—he’s been right on abortion. I felt in some of his things, particularly in the area of consumer protection and few opinions he wrote for the governor, that he—he fudged some but, you know, nobody can be perfect. I have a high opinion of Steve Beshear.Hellard:What about Al—Alice McDonald?
:Above average, highly political, pretty intelligent, allied with forces in the
Department of Education that are good and that have a good vision—people like Laurel True and Don Hunter. She’ll be above average. She is highly political and highly ambitious.Hellard:Dave Armstrong?
:Well, I think Dave is a good—a good man, well qualified to be attorney general,
pretty strong law-and-order man, but I don’t think an extremist. Think he’s intelligent, well-organized. In this primary, we had three first-class candidates for attorney general.Hellard:Yes, I agree with that.
Prichard:I just wish to hell that we had had that many good candidates for some
other offices because I—you know, I don’t think anybody could have made a mistake picking any one of those three boys that ran for attorney general—Bill Weinberg, Larry Greathouse is a first-class fellow, Bill Weinberg’s a good man. I voted for and supported Bill on account of Lois and Judge Combs and—and you know, been a friend of his, but Larry Greathouse is a—has been a good close friend of mine and I’ve admired him and during the Ford administration, I had a very close relationship with Larry Greathouse and—and I’ve known David Armstrong for years. I begged him to run against Mitch McConnell for county judge and he was scared, didn’t think he could win, I told him he could. And I think everybody that looks back on it knows now that if he’d run, he’d beat Mitch to death.Hellard:What about Frances Jones Mills?
:A sleazy idiot, a disgrace to public office and a fool and a jackass to boot.
Hellard:Well, how do we ever beat her?
:I don’t know. I think if you got a strong person who had a lot of name
recognition and wasn’t the type of person that would ordinarily run for treasurer, maybe some outstanding business person or something who had some money, I think you could beat her easily. But it’s just a question of—of the fact that she’s known everywhere. She isn’t beloved, people just know her and she’s got a lot of little—you know, in a way, except she’s much more offensive, she’s got a lot in common with Martha Layne Collins in that she’s got all these small town connections with all these small fry people and they all come out and vote for her. But—but really, if you had a candidate of caliber and name recognition who could—and ability to raise some money, you could beat her.Hellard:How about Drex Davis?
:Oh, Drex is kind of a Howdy Doody. I mean, you know, he isn’t as offensive as
she is, but he’s just a banker’s stooge like she is. And you know, he’s gone around—what was he—belongs to one of these Kiwanis or one of these luncheon clubs and he’s been a district governor—is it the Kiwanis?Hellard:No, Lions.
:Lions. Well, you know, he’s played that game. And again, if you’re going to
beat a person like that, you got to beat them with somebody. And it’s hard to get somebody to run for an office like that because it isn’t worth it.Hellard:( ) about Mary Ann Tobin?
:Oh, I think she’s a cut above what we’re talking about. I’ve known Mary Ann
since she was Breathitt’s—Breathitt’s chairman at the University of Kentucky in 1963, when she was a student and you know, I think she’s been a pretty good representative, I think she’ll probably make a pretty good auditor. I don’t know whether she can strike for anything, you know, a whole lot higher, that remains to be seen, but I don’t think Mary Ann’s a dis—discredit to the ticket.Hellard:Ed, what kind of relationship do you think Martha Layne will have with
the legislature?:Well, Vic, you ought to know that better than I do because you—I don’t know
anyone that’s in closer though with the legislature than you are, much more so than I am. I have assumed that she would use the traditional tools of patronage.[end of tape one, side one]
I assume that she would, in some ways, be inclined to let them call the turn and
that the leadership, you know, the people that she’s closest to—it seems to me, outside of people that couldn’t amount to anything—are—are people in the legislative branch like Joe Prather, Ed Ford and people like that and I would assume that in some ways, they’ll call the shots. Now, I may be wrong and, you know, you—you can say better about that than I do. I can’t see her dominating the legislature, but I can see her getting along with them by doing nothing and they—a lot of them don’t want to do anything either—and when I say doing nothing I mean taking no bold initiatives.Hellard:Yeah.
:I—I don’t know. I—I don’t know how she and Bobby’ll get along. Obviously,
Bobby’s relationship with her’s not at the best or he never would have come out for abolishing the office just as soon she was nominated for governor, but on the other hand, I don’t know how much whip hand Bobby’s got in the House, particularly with her as governor, you know. He had—had a little rebellion on his hands anyhow, didn’t he?Hellard:Yes, yes.
:And I’d say—you know, I don’t know how good a schemer she is politically. I
don’t know how much she’s got a hand at really taking a bold grip on the—on the throttle. If she did, she could get in a lot of trouble in the house, Vic.Hellard:I think they’ll reach an accommodation.
:I would guess that’s right. I think that Bobby—I don’t look on Bobby as a
fellow that, you know, likes to carry on feuds and she’s probably better off with getting along with him and he’s better off getting along with her and people usually do what makes them better off. I—I—I can’t see her having a whole—what do you think? I can’t see her having whole lot of trouble with the legislature.Hellard:Well, she has—she has control of the Senate as it is—
:Why, sure.
Hellard:—Prather and [Joseph] Wright and she’s got a—
:Now, talking about Wright. I sat next to Wright at this meeting of this task
force the Chamber of Commerce has got on education and Joe Wright is a little different—a little different cut than some of these people. Joe told me that he was very much disturbed by the commitments he thought she’d made, by the inferior people that she seemed to by relying on and that he had grave apprehensions. Now, does that surprise you?Hellard:No, but I—I think he’ll—he’ll be one of her key supporters in the Senate.
:Yeah. Oh, he was for her in this race.
Hellard:I think Joe’s a—is a cut above. I think he’s a very objective fellow. I
think he means well.:And all these things he said were said very quietly, very, you know, thoughtfully.
Hellard:Joe—Joe should be a—if there is a mover and a shaker for education—
:Right.
Hellard:—Joe Wright would certainly be chief among them—
:We—
Hellard:—in my judgment.
:—well, Joe was worried about the lack of leadership, worried about the inferior
quality of some of the people and above all, about some of the commitments he thought she’d made for appointments in her administration which he regarded as—as very, very dubious.Hellard:Well, I think basically—
:In particular, he mentioned people like Floyd Poore and Melvin Wilson.
Hellard:Well, I think Joe Wright is an honorable person—
:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—and I think he expressed those concerns even—even to be legitimate
concerns of his.Prichard:Oh, what wor—what—what somewhat surprised me was the openness which he
discussed it and he didn’t talk bitterly, he did—he talked like a person that was worried and—Hellard:One of our assessme—that’s been a concern of a lot of people in , even
people who supported her—:Oh, yeah.
Hellard:—was who—who’s going to actually run the state government.
Prichard:Well, and the people she’s talking about, the people that—you know, I
heard them long ago and then Ed Ryan’s had them in the paper and everybody’s had them in the paper and I’ve been hearing it ever since before the primary, so had you. It’s unthinkable to me that Floyd Poore would be secretary of transportation. You know, it’s—it’s—it’s like Caligula making his horse a consul [Hellard laughs] and Melvin Wilson is just a cheap, shady character and—and this fellow down west Kentucky that they say is going in the finance department—I forget his name now—Mac Thompson, isn’t that him?Hellard:I believe that name—yes, yes.
:I’ve heard Gordon Duke’s name mentioned. I don’t think Gordon’s a giant,
but—but—but you know, Gordon does—you know, he does sort of know how thing—you know, how the thing works, you know. He’s never been in what I think’s a very strong person and he let Julian spend the state into bankruptcy, not that he could have stopped him, but he didn’t try. I’d feel less uncomfortable [laughing] with Gordon Duke than I would somebody like a Mac Thompson, though.Hellard:Yes, yes.
:Now, I don’t—I haven’t heard any others. Have you heard anybody about revenue?
Hellard:No, no, Larry Hayes is the only one I’ve heard.
:Well, she could—isn’t he one of the better ones?
Hellard:I think Larry’s a very competent young man—
:Yeah.
Hellard:—and broad experiences ( ) director. ( )
:I don’t think he’s a heavyweight, but he’s a—he’s a good lightweight or a good
middleweight. Larry Hayes is one of the—one of the less fearsome ones. I don’t know him real well. Is he pretty much under Joe’s shadow?Hellard:Yes, yes, he’s—he’s very much Joe’s man.
:Well, what’s Joe aiming for?
Hellard:I don’t know. I think J—my personal opinion is that Joe will stay in the
legislature, will stay on as president pro tem. He enjoys it, he doesn’t need a job in administration ( ):Oh, I don’t think he’d go in administration. Do you think he’s—
Hellard:I think he might want to run for governor again some day or run—run for
governor some day and I think he will keep his options open but not necessarily—I don’t think Joe’ll get too closely associated with this administration—:Well, Joe has a—
Hellard:— ( )
:—in his own district and in the legislature, Joe has a status that’s not
dependent on Martha Layne—Hellard:Absolutely right.
:—and—and in some ways, he would weaken himself by too close and alliance. I
mean, if I were Joe—and I’m not a confidante of his, fact, I don’t think he likes me—I was pretty strong for Bill Cox. I’ve never had any clashes with him about anything in particular, but I have a notion he doesn’t care much for me. But Joe’s—if I were Joe, I’d want to be on good terms with her but retain my independent status.Hellard:I think that would be good advice.
:Because Joe has a strength and a base of his own that’s not dependent on her.
It is notable that of her strong supporters—supposed strong men, hardly one of them carried his county for her. She ran third in Daviess County, she lost Hardin County, she lost Graves County—may have run third there—she ran third in Pike County where Melvin Wilson came from and lost Bill Collins’—Bill Collins’ native county to Harvey. In other words, she was a better horse than her horses.Hellard:Well, it’s going to be an interesting four years.
:I’m not sure it is.
Hellard:Oh, I think it will be, politically—politically. I’m not sure what—how
the state’s going to end up after ( ):I’ve felt almost that I’d like to be Rip Van Winkle and go to sleep [Hellard
laughs] for four years. I just—Hellard:Well, and—course, one—one thing is pretty certain is that Ed Ford will
be the—be the secretary of natural resources.:Why does he want it?
Hellard:Well, I don’t know. I really don’t know, but I’m told he’s really very,
very interested.:Well, I’ll say this, I’d rather see him have it than the others that were
mentioned for it, except David Short. But Frank Harsher just—you know, chills ran up and down my spine when I saw that and I couldn’t believe it.Hellard:No.
:What does she have to gain by putting Frank Harsher—
Hellard:Not a—
:—in?
Hellard:—thing, not a thing.
:That’s something Harsher just promoted.
Hellard:But if Ed Ford—interesting thing about Ed Ford—if he takes that job,
then we’ve got a Senate race in our—in our district.:That’s right. Why don’t you run for it?
Hellard:Well, I’m—I’m happy where I am.
:Well, if that’s the case, don’t run for it.
Hellard:Happy where I am.
:Who do you think might run for it?
Hellard:Well, I think Joe Barrows is interested in it.
:You don’t think John Swinford will make a run?
Hellard:Well, I—I think John might well do it.
:Well, I’d hate to see race between Joe Barrows and John Swinford.
Hellard:Well, I’m not sure if—if John now—
:Reason I’d hate to see it is I’d like to vote for both of them.
Hellard:I’m not sure Joe would run if John were to announce.
:You know, I—I’m crazy about Joe Barrows, think he’s a fine legislator and a
fine person and I’ve just—you know, I’ve loved John Swinford all his life and—Hellard:Well, there’s no want to good men in that district to run.
:No what?
Hellard:No want of good men.
:Who was—
Hellard:I think—I think you can have—I think you can have lots of people in the
district who would make—make good senators. I think Jim LeMaster would make a good senator, I don’t think he’d give his position up in the House to run.:Jim has disappointed me a little bit—he is not as much of a leader as I hoped
he would be. I’m not talking about floor leader but just a leader.Hellard:I—you know, strange enough, I think the ability is there but he—
:I always thought it was there.
Hellard:—but he—but he just has not chosen to exercise it—
:That’s right. I agree with that.
Hellard:—and—
:He’s played it too damn safe. Jim is certainly, you know, my opinion, a very
decent, honorable, good person and I think above average intelligence. I’m not faulting him, but I just—Hellard:Oh, I—I know exactly what you mean. What do—
:I had more expectations of him than I have realized. Who else is in the
picture, possibly?Hellard:Well, your friend Jim Alexander might run.
:Oh, well [laughing], that’s—
Hellard:No, I’m just merely jesting then.
:I was—I—
Hellard:I think Mark Farrell would be probably be interested in running. Now, I
don’t know what—:Hmm.
Hellard:—what—how ( )
:How well would he run in a district-wide race?
Hellard:Well, I think he’s run off ( ) .
:Who’s going to—who’s going to win the circuit judge’s race?
Hellard:Well, I—I don’t know. I would have said [David] Knox was going to win it
a month ago, but I think Henry’s [Prewitt] showing very strong last month.:Henry’s—he—he’s working hard—
Hellard:He’s working very hard.
:—and he’s turned a few ( ) in .
Hellard:If he would just organize himself a blitz of the—of the city and—and the
major precincts the last week or so—:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—I think he might pull it off. And now—you know, his kids and—
:What’s Mark doing?
Hellard:Laying low, laying very low. But I don’t know what—
:If I was Henry, I’d believe I’d get me a different commissioner if I won the election.
Hellard:I can’t see that Mark’s doing anything at all for it or maybe he is—
:Why, you know he’s not.
Hellard:—but I can’t—
:Mark is the best fellow I ever saw at making both sides pay him to be neutral
[Hellard laughs].Hellard:I haven’t talked to Judge [Tony] Wilhoit.
:I haven’t talked to Tony lately. I need to talk to him about a young lady that
I’m going to recommend to him for a law clerk if he hasn’t already picked one, that’s in law school—brilliant girl, friend of Nathan’s [Prichard]. I’ve known her all her life. I haven’t talked to Tony about it, either. Is Tony for Knox?Hellard:I think so, I think so.
:I just kind of had that—
Hellard:And the reason I think that—Jim Owen had a fish try a month or two ago
and I’m not sure, but I think David came down with Tony, David Knox, which would indicate, of course, that—:Is Jim Owen for Knox?
Hellard:Haven’t talked to anyone specifically, but my guess is he is. ( )
:Well, I expect a lot of those people have seen him when he was district judge
and got to know him.Hellard:Well, I think that and I think the fact, too, is that most of them don’t
give a damn.:Why, of course.
Hellard:You know, they don’t give a damn.
:Well, I don’t—I—
Hellard:They don’t want—they don’t want another Bobby Hall Smith.
:—I don’t give a damn, in a sense. I mean, either—as far as I’m concerned,
either one of them would be all right. I’m—I’m going to vote for Henry because I’ve known Henry all his life and I have strong family ties with the Prewitts and the Cawood and I—I—I recommended it to Brown that he appoint him. I’m like you—he better get in those big town precincts in and get somebody hustling.Hellard:Well, that’d be—that—you know, I think that would almost cinch it for
him because I don’t see that Knox has got much of an organization, he’s got a lot of people for him, but they’re—:Hen—Henry—
Hellard:—not going to do a hell of a lot.
:—Henry ought to hire a bunch of young—young boys.
Hellard:Well, he’s got a son up here in school that’d do—that could organize
some of his friends.:Uh-huh. And just go house-to-house and then, election day, see that everybody
got there. Hell, I’ll never forget that—Hellard:Well, they’re not going to worry—in , they’re not going to have to worry
about people coming out to vote in this election.:On account of Martha Layne?
Hellard:That’s right. And Corinne, and Corinne. So, it’s just a matter of
getting his name out to the most people but most people don’t know ( ):Oh, Corinne win big?
Hellard:Corinne’s going to win awful big. I’d like—
:( )
Hellard:—I’d like to see her run ahead of Martha Layne, but I don’t think that’s—
Prichard:Well, we’ve all—I’ll say this, she electioneers, she came by our house
in the primary, came by again in the regular, left a card, I think Lucy was there one time and we—we vote—we, of course, were very much for her. She’s a—she’s all right.Hellard:Sh—she’ll run an efficient office. The—the new girl has made lots of friends.
:Oh, I don’t say that there’s anything wrong with her. They tell me she’s all right—
Hellard:Yeah.
:—as a person. I just don’t want to see a Republican [Hellard laughs] and—
Hellard:Well, let me ask about a—
:Let me ask you something. Was there any political feedback, or whatever you
want to call it, from the trial of Hargis Sexton?Hellard:Not that I heard.
Prichard:Hank Graddy was so bitter against Judge Prewitt about it, but Judge
Prewitt told me—Henry told me that Hank messed the thing up and that Hank insisted on having a night session of the court and then at two o’clock in the morning talked to the jury for two hours and a quarter.Hellard:Great God. I hadn’t heard that.
:And he says, “That’s one reason that Hargis was cleared. They just got wore out
with Hank.” Well, you know Hargis was guilty as hell. [Hellard laughs]Hellard:( ) about it.
Prichard:Why, hell, he’s a native [Hellard laughs]—he’s been a crook all life
and his only defense was he’s stolen so much he was rich and didn’t have to steal anymore [Hellard laughs].Hellard:Well, I’ll never understand why—why Gentry appointed Hank Graddy as his
assistant. That’s just never—never will I understand it, not even if he explains it to me.:Hank—as Lucy says about Hank—he just loves the sound of his own voice. Hank
can’t stand to stay quiet. He belongs on some of these environmental things with Lucy and she says “He just talks all the time.” Is—Lucy’s friend Mike Green said something funny about Mike—about Hank—Lucy says, “I think Hank has political ambitions.” Mike says, “Too short.” [laughter]Hellard:Mike’s a good man.
:I like Mike.
Hellard:Yeah.
:He’s a decent fellow. But anyway—Lucy just loves him—but anyway, this—I think
there’ll be some votes against David Knox in . I think John Haggin Cooper’s against him, I don’t know why.Hellard:Well, John Hagg—I don’t know whether John Haggin still has—I would
assume he still has some strength over there.:Oh, he wouldn’t be dominant, but I’m not—David will carry the county, but I
think there may be a—more votes against him over there than some people think.Hellard:Well, I—I just have imagined that it was going to be won in , because
the vote’s going to be so heavy and I figured David would carry Scott and Henry would carry—:Bourbon.
Hellard:—Bourbon, but the big vote—the actual big vote’s going to be in .
:How big was the vote in the primary? About four thousand?
Hellard:No, no, it was more than that, like about—I want to say around six
thousand because she had nineteen hundred against her—:Uh-huh.
Hellard:—and I think she—I think she had—she had about thirty-nine hundred.
:Now that may be right, but you know, it’s amazing she had nineteen hundred
against her.Hellard:Well, that was Bill Collins.
:Well, of course. Course.
Hellard:Well, let me ask you about a Republican since this is a—been a hell of a
week for us. What about [Ronald] Reagan and his foreign policy?Prichard:Well, I think he’s—I think foreign policy may be the same sort of a
millstone around his neck that it turned out to be for [Jimmy] Carter. I think that the—the situation may well be his hostage crisis. I think his Central American policy is questionable; I think there’s a lot of opposition to that. I—you know, he has not resolved any foreign policy question in a way that—that brings a president into an extremely favorable light, such as [Richard M.] Nixon’s détente—I mean, not arguing now the rightness or wrongness of Nixon’s policies, but Nixon’s move to Ch—with China and his détente with [Leonid] Brezhnev were unquestionably big political assets for him. I don’t see anything with Reagan. We’re almost back to the Cold War, his arms control policy is highly controversial, he—he’s—he’s tried a couple of time to move in a direction that would bring about a bipartisan foreign policy in Europe on arms control and he’s never quite made it. I think his Central American policy is not popular; I think was kind of an effort of Reagan’s to fight a war that he couldn’t lose and take attention away from . If he makes a big play for next spring, he’s going to get the lobby mad at him again, his own right flank. I don’t know. Foreign policy may be the De—end up being the Democrat’s secret weapon if they don’t get so far implicated in Reagan’s maneuvers that they’re in no position to take advantage of it. And I’m rather disturbed by Tip O’Neill’s patriotic adherence to his posture in . I think the best things Reagan has done in foreign policy—I don’t know that they’re most popular—I think his original effort to do something on the Palestinian issue was pretty good. His proposal for a sort of federation with of the , that was the best thing he’s done in foreign policy. I think that [George C.] Schultz is one of the best men in his cabinet, but Schultz is always having his heels nipped at by these nuts and the extremists. I think—I think the—the issue of the missiles in is going to continue to be a troublesome one. I don’t think it’s going to die. I think the missiles will probably be deployed and I fear some very dangerous reactions by the . I don’t know what they’ll be.Hellard:What had done to our moral posture, if anything?
:Well, i—if anything, it’s hurt it. The question is how significant it is. In
some ways, the American people don’t worry as much about our moral posture as they do about, you know, how much trouble we’re in and how many Americans get killed and how much we’re in danger and in trouble. I think there’s a—there will be a moral—a reaction about Grenada that it was a sort of a—our Afghanistan, but how—the difference is that the Soviet Union is bogged down in Afghanistan as we were in Vietnam and we’re not going to be bogged down in Grenada. It’s a lot like kicking a cripple, but I think to the extent there is a reaction, it’ll be—and—and it’s notable that our allies are all against us on it, you know, except for the little Caribbean governments, but Mexico and all the South American governments are outraged, Mrs. [Margaret] Thatcher’s critical. I don’t know. I—I don’t think—I don’t think ’s really helped him. I think it—I think is much more serious, though. First place, there’ve been many more lives lost in , there’s just been few lives lost in —what was it?—two or three Americans killed?Hellard:Let me switch this right quick, Prich.
[end of tape one, side two]
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