Oral History Interview with Elmer Carrell

“START OF TAPE 1. SIDE 1” Carrell: The data, I followed my dad at Fort Sill, my mother, brother and I, and he finished at Fort Sill in December seventeen and…from there he proceeded to cam…he spent Christmas week in New Orleans, and then proceeded to Camp Shelby.

Interviewer: Why did he go to Camp Shelby?

Carrell: Because the hun…his outfit was stationed in Shelby, he was, he was on detached service to he artillery school. He was in the first class of the, of the artillery school ever held in Fort Sill.

Interviewer: And they (allowed?) families to come along?

Carrell: We lived in Lawton. How yeah, you, they follow you.

Interviewer: Okay.

Carrell: We stayed in Lawton when they ( ) some school 1:00out there, and then, and then we ( ) which was about five miles from the coast.

Interviewer: So your father was in the national guardsman down there.

Carrell: Mm-mm. He had been in the national guard since 1890 and 1895 I think somewhere down there, ( ) ’96, he was in, he was in the Spanish-American War.

Interviewer: Who was his ( ) Carrell: It was lieutenant by Dan (M?) ( ) Interviewer: Was he also in the Mexican boarder War?

Carrell: Mexican War, yeah, it wasn’t a war.

Interviewer: I mean, the campaign ( ).

Carrell: Mexican war, yeah, he was in the Mexican War, and he, he was in the Spanish-American War, the Mexican War and World War I. And (strike thee?) to ( ) that family ( ) all the time.

Interviewer: For what strike ( )?

Carrell: The coal mines up there, and he was, he commanded in Harlan County, and he came up here in nineteen, 2:00no not seventy ( ) it was. The governor called him one day in nineteen-twenty…( ) no, nineteen twenty-five or twenty-six, I, I can’t pinpoint the year right now, but dad told me they would have to send troops to Harlan County and they wanted him to get his staff together and he talked, he talked about, and they, they came up, they assembled in the, somewhere ( ), and then he took the train into Harlan (town?). He had his staff and he had about six hundred men up there. And…he, he went up there, and he, and my, my mother, my mother lived in a hotel with Dad, he was up there four months I guess. Yeah. 3:00And I went back to Harlan again in ’39.

Interviewer: Can you ( ) when the U. S. ( ) to war with Germany?

Carrell: Yeah, ( ) and… Interviewer: What do you know about that time?

Carrell: He went in World War I, in ’92--wait a minute. Let’s see, World War I started in 1914. The U. S. came--got into it…in 1917, that was about the middle of the month. I can’t… Interviewer: I think it was April.

Carrell: Yeah, April the 9th, ( ) I remember that, it was April and we finished up on April 17th, we finished up November 4:0011th at eleven o’clock in the morning, November 18th… Interviewer: Can you tell me what you remember about the time and how people reacted when the U. S. first went to war?

Carrell: Well, patriotism always… Interviewer: Sad, or… Carrell: …come first. If the country gets very patriotic in a war, they believed in it and they read and this, and this has gone ( ) kid I remember, but…but patriotism make ( ) people are very, most people are very, of course, the funny thing was, here in Louisville had a lot of German people, and they, they ( ) locked up a lot of these people. They were German sympathizers, and I remember they, there was a and they changed names, like Green Street was changed to Liberty Street and all the names that were set in German were all changed. A lot of things happened. 5:00Interviewer: And what regiment was your father in? Do you remember that?

Carrell: Oh when, when they went to the Mexican border, I mean the first Kentucky infantry and they came back from the Mexican border…and about that time, that’s when he went in the World War I, they were converted from the First Kentucky Infantry to the (Harland County?) 138th. And anyway, then they went to Camp Shelby, They went to ( ) Camp Shelby, he took ( ) my dad went to--they sent him to school, Artillery school why they…they trained the, then they ch…( ) training, and I don’t know when they got to going to tell you the truth, ( ) they trained with broomsticks it sounded to me like, 6:00hey [Laughter – Interviewer]. They did, they improvised guns and stuff, but I know that in World War II he ( ) passing the trenches that they had dug in World War I down at Camp Shelby. And…they…see in those days they allowed a, they had, they had what they called Squalors’ Row. They allowed officers to have building streets on the edge of camp for the families. We lived in the street in a shack. It cost three-hundred dollars to build in those days, we had, a room across the front, we had a porch across the front, screened in porch, and then a living room and they had a bedroom and a kitchen. They had water, 7:00running water that, that run pipes across the ground and, and in the summer then you had hot water and in the winter you had cold water [Chuckling] and…but…we didn’t have a--it had outside plumbing, but otherwise, but you lived on the edge of ca…and the quartermaster truck used to come by about ( ) he would take the orders for groceries and then deliver them the next day, and then a mile or two before they change ( ) took the orders ( ), and that’s where we lived. It was known as Squalors Row. And that, because I remember they had boxing matches about one day a week, and ( ) came and then, they have band concerts (and all that?). I had, my brother and I used to walk about, we were about a mile from the, from the regiment, we’d walk over there 8:00every morning, and get there, and, and we’d spend the day with the troops. They had the supply, was a supply sergeant from headquarter ( ) he got killed in a railroad wreck over in France, but he told me, we had to ha…we had campaign hats and red hat (scarves?), and the artillery wore red head scarves in those days, and we ( )… Interviewer: Did they have ( )?

Carrell: Yeah, red (tarp?) they wore ( ) camping and everything, see. You know, ( ) started February ’49 or something.

Interviewer: Yeah.

Carrell: You’ve never seen those hats?

Interviewer: ( ) yes.

Carrell: Well it’s a, it’s a, ( ) I’m sure you got a picture of (the campaign?) out in here. Yeah, here they are ( ), the infantry wore blue head scarves of that, artillery wore red and cavalry wore yellow head scarves. Each, each ( ) had a different color hat, and artillery had red head scarves, the ( ) lay around hat and then the ( ) coming 9:00out to the tucked fine ( ) around the rim, and you got a head scarves and you wore a hat, campaign hats, and so, let’s see, oh yeah, you had to pitch that one more, ( ) in Kentucky I still got a scar and for seventy years on my lip, with a BB shot.

Interviewer: So you played war?

Carrell: We didn’t play well, we had war at that time. [Laughter – Interviewer] and we had war at that point. No, there was a battle at Camp Shelby, boy everybody around all the horses ( ) my teeth, see, (The battle of Camp Shelby?) but my lip was a mess. I know that. I was lucky he didn’t hit me in the eye or something. We got to be good friends afterwards. A lot of those kids, like who were in World War II seemed that way, and then the ( ).

Interviewer: What types of training did you see there? 10:00Were they digging trenches, and ( )… Carrell: Well yes we did, we did, because artillery didn’t ( ) they, they dug their own places and stuff, I don’t see too much in, too much ( ) I didn’t go out in the range then very often, ( ). It, it, the, the thing that has, things they did in World War I were basically what they did in World War II except in World War II…( ) I was sick.

Interviewer: So when you were at Camp Shelby, you would see anything goes on as far as the training.

Carrell: Well I, I didn’t get, we didn’t go out to the range, you see, ( ) with the kid ( ) no, and then ( ) those kids were ( ).

Interviewer: So most of the training was done outside the camp.

Carrell: Well, at the camp yeah, the training areas. (Sugar loaf Field?) and I can’t remember the name of some 11:00of the places where they trained on, and of course Camp Shelby covered quite a bit of ground. It’s like Fort Knox, you go out to Fort Knox, and when you can be at Fort Knox for years and never the see the training. And I was, as far as the ranges are concerned, ( ) around, the closest ( ) but nobody took you back to the tank or anything ( ) you wouldn’t know what ( ) except you’d hear it.

Interviewer: Did your father ever say anything about the camp…when he came home at night and… Carrell: No, he didn’t.

Interviewer: …and say that he did something ( )?

Carrell: No, he didn’t, no-no, he didn’t talk about it. But he, he, it was a whole lot different than what we did in World War II. It wasn’t as advanced, the stuff wasn’t invented since World War II. They…they…they 12:00didn’t, I know in World War II we took road marches…out to Camp Shelby did, I don’t remember ever doing--see in World War I never in the ( ) and that made a big difference, ( ) on, ( ) on. But in World War I, we had horses we had to worry about the horses all the time. And a horse costs money.

Interviewer: [Chuckling] yes ( ).

Carrell: A human being doesn’t cost money, but a horse costs money. And that’s, that’s a fact that’s ( ), horses come first. You always get the horses took care of them first before you got fed. That’s the, that’s, that was the rule.

Interviewer: Were you, you were at Shelby when the Cyclone hit?

Carrell: What’s that?

Interviewer: I mean the Cyclone that hit…Camp Shelby, I think it was a…March of 1918.

Carrell: Oh is that right. 13:00But I don’t know any ( ) Interviewer: It ( ) on the 38th Division, it was called the (Southland?) Division and the ( ) Carrell: Oh now that’s a new one though, you’re telling me something I’ve never heard. I, I think that we got the, we got the (menu?) Yeah, I, I, I, I swear I can’t… Interviewer: There was a big storm that hit while you there, or… Carrell: Let’s talk ( ) Interviewer: …tornado, or… Carrell: There probably was, but I don’t remember.

Interviewer: Hum.

Carrell: I don’t remember that.

Interviewer: What, from what I’ve read so far they called the division guy’s name, but a big cyclone came and tore up their tents and ( ) Carrell: Oh that’s, that’s out, near the coast down there, I think, yeah. I ( ) in World War II.

Interviewer: Okay. This is World War I ( ).

Carrell: Yeah but I’m saying the same thing hit the Gulf Coast and the, and we went some, we were on maneuvers then, and boy what a mess that was. We were in Louisiana when that, that hurricane hit down 14:00the gulf coast, ( ) it blew everything. We, we got a share of the ( ). I, yeah I, somewhere I, I, I don’t remember, but I remember that that’s what they claim how they got the name Cyclone ( ).

Interviewer: Hum, ( ) been on at ( ) airport, like a melting down thing [Chuckles – Interviewer]?

Carrell: No, se we di… Interviewer: …You made it through the storm, or… Carrell: We lived in that shack and, ( ) I don’t remember.

Interviewer: How long were you being at Shelby?

Carrell: We got there in January and we came home in September 18th, we were there eight months. We, we, see the regiment got there and in the fall of seventeen, and Dad went to Sill for three months, so when he finished at Sill, he reported in at the first of the year ( ) and we left Shelby 15:00just before they did, and ( ) anyway dad (went?) overseas. He came home ( ) overseas.

Interviewer: Were the men always rotating at the camp were the people always going to France and new people coming in?

Carrell: No, the regiment, there was no rotation in a regiment then.

Interviewer: They just stayed to, together until they all went to France?

Carrell: Yeah, yeah.

Interviewer: Is that how it was?

Carrell: Now they have some rotation now, and I th…I, they rotated more in World War II than they did in World War I. There you stayed ( ) together, in World War I, I remember, yeah. Of course World War I didn’t last that long. ( ) only in less than two years we were in it. World War II we were in five years, 16:00four or five years. We did a lot of rotation, although I, I think it was a mistake myself ( ) not, in my old outfit in World War II I, I took some, took these gents from over at Camp Shelby and got artilleries from the draft and we, we stayed together. I, I came back in ( ) cadre in March ’43, see I, I’ve been over two years with the outfit, and I came back, came back to ( ) and honestly ( ). Some guys didn’t in the outfit, battalion the whole time ( ) for over twenty-five years. In World War, in World War I we stayed pretty well together. Have you got, have you, did you ever look at that WPA history of the United ( )? 17:00Interviewer: Mm-mm, about the history of Kentucky? Yes, I read about that.

Carrell: Yeah I, Dad had one but somebody stole it, and I, and I never did find it, I...

Interviewer: Hum, I have about three copies here.

Carrell: You are not going to toss one of them ( ) was over there.

Interviewer: Oh [Laughter – interviewer] it’s a matter of fact there is one my favorite own shelf, that first book that you (gave me?.) Carrell: And then, that’s it. If you ( ) somebody don’t want too much money for it let me know, will you.

Interviewer: All right [Chuckles – Interviewer] Carrell: I’ll buy it.

Interviewer: Now can you tell me anything about the attitudes of the soldiers who were there? Were they, did they hate the camp, or did they…fairly content, or… Carrell: The, not, no, no. You got some guys who complain, you’re going to have some people complain all the time, I don’t care how good things are. And you’re going to have, and so you’re going to have certain people guys that won’t lie to you, but they won’t open their mouths, they won’t (put up with it) and you got a group of people who are excellent. A soldier who doesn’t complain 18:00is not a good soldier. That’s right, you know what, if you got a soldier that complains you have to worry about ot.

Interviewer: How about your father, what did he think about the camps?

Carrell: ( ) All right.

Interviewer: So the conditions were fairly good ( ).

Carrell: Well ( ) 1917, nineteen years away ( ), and we had…we have a ( ) with mess halls ( ) in World War I, I think there wasn’t a mess hall ( ) sort of similar to the World War II, out at Camp Shelby, it was a tent camp you know. World War II, they had, they had ( ) latrines, ( ) wash them, and ( ) mess halls, clean that ( ) and then clean out those tents. They had concrete ( ) floor down, this concrete, put a tent ( ) and the, when he, he 19:00( ) stove in, that’s a little bitty stove that sits in the middle that tent, and ( ) won’t put the tent up [Laughter – Interviewer], ( ).

Interviewer: Sleep on the floor? Did you have… Carrell: No, on cot. ( ) cots. Now, during World War II, we had…we had no cots, as I remember show me. But World War I they had those cam…campers cot and ( ) two, two ( ) and it’s cold to your clothes, and…it 20:00was a…for the time, 1918, it was a good camp, and ( ) division were very good in those days.

Interviewer: Did you have any flue outbreaks? Like the flue epidemic ( )?

Carrell: They had one here in Louisville, I know that. We did…I don’t think we got much of ( ) Shelby ( ).

Interviewer: Which means a ( ) on the ( ).

Carrell: Yeah, because when we came home, I went down kind of through that, that ( ) thew! See Camp Shelby lost a lot of lives with flu epidemic. See Camp Shelby, you know where Camp Shelby was, don’t you?

Interviewer: Well it’s in Louisville.

Carrell: Yes, it’s right on the edge. Do you know ( ) Park is today?

Interviewer: Not really familiar with that city.

Carrell: Well, ( ) Iron Park.

Interviewer: How close to ( ) is it at?

Carrell: Well, across the (ferry?) and I want to say, I want to… 21:00Interviewer: Okay.

Carrell: Yeah. The fairgrounds is right at Camp (Shelby?) In other words turn on ( ). That’s the Martin Express Way entrance. That means that you, you cannot get this way ( ) and right over there is Camp Shelby. My father was the first commanding officer of the camp here, and they were building, he, he was with the battalion guard who had that one son, se…sepa ( ). The guard got a hold of you then you’re, ( ) fire a shot before he ( ) decided to stop.

Interviewer: Can you tell me anymore about the flu?

Carrell: No, except for those in 22:00( ) awful bad at Camp Taylor. I don’t think, I don’t remember having it so bad at, at Shelby. Out there we had mumps and measles, we had that every time, we had at World War II, measles, I remember we had that, how we had the mumps I guess the last of World War II. Those everything used to break down when you are, you’re together you have men together. ( ) Tell another one, ( ) but I don’t think it, I think it’s time it grows on you I guess you ( ) of those things as, was going after you came in, and then ( ) I was lucky I didn’t say ( ) Interviewer: ( ) Carrell: No. Well I was sick when I went to Shelby, 23:00down there eight week ( ) and down there and the doctor kind of told me ( ) eat meat, I never live. That scared the hell out of me and I started eating meat. See I--the doctors were from Louisville and, (Ellis Duncan?) and…( ) I can’t remember the next doctor, well (Kavanaugh?) was one of them, from Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. I can’t remember who the other was right now but see the ra…the hundredth, the first battalion ( ) everybody’s rule and then, when they got the, ask Jeff they got some fellows, I don’t remember when they got the fellows but they came out and (so?) they had their own doctors and everything else, it was the same way in World War 24:00II, if you have 138th left (last year?) had their own doctors all through the war. It makes a big difference, it makes a big difference.

Interviewer: What else can you tell me about Camp Shelby, just what went on there?

Carrell: Sh…if you remember, and rea…real the real issue of training in World War II is actually the same thing in World War I, in Shelby. Shelby was a tent camp. Some of the ( ) and they had the mountain for you. And of course now in those days, ( ) took mine out of the hospital, if you needed a chauffeur you took (a man?) out of the hospital, you needed a chauffeur, ( ) and then she used 25:00to ( ) on Wednesday and ( ) game and anyone wanted to (Harrysburg?) why dad ( ) send (Shuster) over there and ( ) hardship. But tell me, of course, ( ) in those days, and things I disapprove of World War II is improvement over World War I. ( ) different tune. Training was, ( ) same thing, I remember, do the same thing in World War I, than you did in World War II.

Interviewer: Would you have any information about what, about the war ( ) did you have any newspapers available to the… Carrell: Oh yeah they had a newspaper, but I don’t read newspapers 26:00and I think the last newspaper I wrote ( ) years. ( ) it’s is a fact. The last pa…the last newspaper ( ) and I mean ever print anything right, everything is botched up and…that’s true all this, that’s true ( ) very much ( ) and of course I, as a kid, I never, never could ( ) stuff, ( ) and in World War II, I’m here to tell you that I don’t think ( ) World War II and then ( ) Interviewer: Did your father go on the ( )?

Carrell: Yeah, and they, they, that they, the ( ) was 27:00on a training going from one place and other, and the only thing that saved his life was the officers ( ) in the middle of the train to the end, the officers ( ) the last (cab?) on the train. This (Johnson?) crew on a French train a hand, their train had stopped for somebody came out and just plowed right into that train ( ). We lost about oh twenty-six, twenty nine about thirty injured. The train they used was the old French wood carved ( ) and it was at midnight and they ( ) and the outfit there had some guys had been entertainers and ( ) stage shows in New York, and they, those guys sang, did all that kind of stuff, to keep the morale up for a while, ( ) I tell you, I’ll never forget that 28:00( ). That was a…that’s the only ( ) that they had, they, they didn’t get to come back, you know, moving up to town ( ) when the war ended, and they came home in January and eighteen ninety-two. So we went out to Camp (Shelby?) somebody took ( ) and dad got in. In those days, the regiment was mustered out of federal service and they, the, they…there was no national guard, in 1919 until nineteen…twenty…one they started up again 29:00and made the first camp and we two, three ( ) out, I remember and Dad, and they asked Dad to re-organize the 138th regiment, which he did. And the regiment went on, came into the service to World War one, we made (Colston?) he well asked him to ( ) regiment commander and I forget what he did, but Bob (McBride?) was the lieutenant colonel executive officer and he has been to serve a long time ago ( ) and Dad commanded the first battalions and ( ) in those days, and so the regiment went in ( ) until I came home ( ) and I s…he started up in 1921 down 30:00and made the first ( ) in 1922, and ( ) I made my first (camp?) as a private in 1924, in New Orleans, July one, 1924 ( ) and I stayed until the very end until 1968, I was in the ( ) didn’t tell me to go back, they didn’t tell me that. [END OF INTERVIEW]