Oral History Interview with Jim Crumlin

DAVID WOLFORD: I'm here with Mr. James Crumlin. It is the 18th of August, 2002. We're in Louisville, Kentucky at his home. How are you doing today Mr. Crumlin?

JAMES CRUMLIN: Well.

DW: Would you just kind of tell us where you're from and where you went to school and where you grew up?

JC: Well, I was born in South Carolina. I attended primary school there, elementary and high school I attended in Spartanburg and was South Carolina. 1:00Then I went to Washington, DC, and later I was a bus driving for him, all that I sightseeing, and all and bus driving for my cousin who had all. He was my mother's cousin, but being her cousin made him my cousin too so to speak.

DW: Right.

JC: So I finished high school Armstrong High School in Washington, DC.

DW: Armstrong High School.

JC: Yeah.

DW: I'm guessing that was an all black high school.

JC: Yeah. At that time everything was all white or all black. I used to go when I finished law school, I came to Kentucky and took the bar and passed it eventually, And I applied, passed the bar, I was practicing at 524 West Walnut Street. And then I went to 608 West Walnut and they changed it to Muhammad, 3:00Muhammad Ali.

DW: Muhammad Ali Boulevard.

JC: Boulevard. I was there, I was employed there. I was chief attorney for about twenty-one or twenty-three years. That took me to eight different states. I could go in those days because I had been practicing here and a member of the 4:00Kentucky High Court for more than five years, which was a requirement in all those other states so I was in Tennessee, Missouri, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Kentucky--how many is that?

DW: That's several. Now did you have your own practice or did you work for a law firm at first?

JC: I had my own practice.

DW: All that time.

JC: All that time. Only thing about it is I became a minister along with my 5:00practice. So I pastored churches for about thirty-six years or thirty-seven years, something like.

DW: Did you have your own church or did you do it?

JC: Yeah.

DW: You did have your own church? What was the name of that?

JC: It was well, first of all I had Brown Temple AME Zion Church, which I built that church eventually. It's there now. They cut it up a little bit now to my 6:00dislike, and I didn't make, now Johnson Chapel in Springfield. Every time they needed someone to build up a rundown place, they'd send me. So I retired in about December the 1st 1997, and then later on, last year in fact I retired as 7:00presiding elder. I had at one time sixteen, about sixteen churches under my supervision.

DW: I see.

JC: Then I gave up several because they wasn't producing, and we couldn't find anybody who would go into these little churches. And they got to the point they couldn't pay the presiding elder. Now I know they couldn't pay a pastor. So that's a Methodist church incidentally. And we stayed with that presiding elder 8:00business for about twelve years.

DW: Okay. Now when did you arrive to Louisville? When did you actually move to Louisville?

JC: In 1933. Let's see. I actually moved here. I passed the bar in 1934 or '36, something like that.

DW: '34 or '36, somewhere in there?

JC: Yeah.

DW: When did you first become involved with the NAACP?

JC: About that time.

DW: Was it once you were here in Louisville?

JC: Yeah.

DW: And why did you do that? Why did you get involved with that organization?

JC: Because I got tired of hearing talk about our boys overseas fighting for America. The black boys would have to stay up north, and they'd better not come back here. But they have colored water, and colored waiting rooms and they left 10:00that and went to war. I was in France at that time.

DW: You were in where at that time?

JC: France.

DW: France. You were in the service?

JC: Yeah.

DW: What branch of the service?

JC: Army.

DW: And did you see combat?

JC: Oh yeah. There was a little of it.

DW: World War Two?

JC: World War Two.

DW: Yep. What was your first litigation experience in Kentucky towards civil rights?

JC: Well, in Louisville they tried to keep us out of court as much as they could. As I was saying I got down to listen to, after seeing the lightening rip men's clothes off completely, black boy. I got mad and then from determined 12:00that I was going to see why the water fountain always had white always written on them taste any better or any worse than the water had colored written over it. So I went down and used it. The guy wanted to knock my head off.

DW: What happened?

JC: As soon as I turned he hit me. He, why else. So he didn't hit me. Darryl intervened and I came back from the Army. He was just a sergeant 13:00in Germany, and he was Red Cross from that point. But he hadn't forgotten, and I was advised to not fool with him, forget him. He wanted to overlook him . I'd just come back downstairs at the white latrine. You know what a white latrine?

DW: Yes.

JC: It's a latrine that had white written over the door. To urinate in it. So 14:00I had been down there and used that. I didn't feel any better and neither did the water that I drank up there taste any better.

DW: Didn't taste any better.

JC: Any difference either.

DW: Is that what you expected?

JC: Yeah. So after I argued with him, they got in the courtroom and they had a place for the colored lawyers to sit and a place for the white lawyers to sit. I said this doesn't make sense. I said they have to maintain for blacks and for 15:00whites. No wonder it was nearly the poorest state in the union or almost the poorest state in the union. I said let's stop being silly and do away with these things and do, and so on that would be better.

DW: Well, when was your first experience in court in a lawsuit that was trying to achieve equality?

JC: Well, there are two or three different times. First was over going in the parks.

DW: Parks in Louisville.

JC: Yeah. Going to the parks. They said the blacks couldn't go in there. They arrested two black fellows for going up and playing tennis.

DW: Did you defend those gentlemen?

JC: I defended them.

DW: How did that turn out?

JC: Well, they gave them ten-dollar fine and a twenty-dollar fine. The twenty-dollar fine was because one of the boys said I'm not going no damned place unless you call Mr. Crumlin. Well, they made him pay twenty dollars. I 17:00asked the circuit court if we could appeal. They said, yeah. At that time you had to ask for permission to.

DW: Appeal.

JC: From this court on to the circuit court. They had a one black over there in the circuit court. I later had his job, but that was my first eventually, Sweeney, a dentist, Albert Carroll, Carroll, and another fellow who, and he said 18:00he was a student at Municipal College.

DW: What was his name?

JC: Stubbs.

DW: Stubbs. What was that, what was that issue?

JC: Well, they didn't want Sweeney or Carroll. Wanted Carroll to play on the so-called white park, at the park. Carroll park in the east end.

DW: East end of Louisville.

JC: Yeah. She was stopped by security and said you're not supposed to be coming in this park. You can pass through if you're a motor rider, but if you're just walking and stopping here and there, no. You can't do that.

DW: Was there city ordinances against that at the time?

JC: That's what he said.

DW: Yeah.

JC: We didn't find any, and of course we, on that side.

DW: Were these cases I'm guessing before the Lyman Johnson suit?

JC: Oh yeah.

DW: Were these early '40s or something?

JC: Shortly after I passed the bar.

DW: Some of your first cases then.

JC: Yeah.

DW: When was your first desegregation suit concerning schools?

JC: Oh after the Supreme Court decision.

DW: Did you, were you the attorney for Lyman Johnson?

JC: Yeah, I am the one that filed the suit for Lyman Johnson.

DW: And that was before the Supreme Court ruling, wasn't it? That was before the Brown decision, wasn't it?

JC: Well, I don't remember.

DW: Okay.

JC: I thought it was after until you mentioned it just now.

DW: Do you remember the Sweatt versus Painter cases and the McLaurin cases, that was Supreme Court cases about colleges letting, allowing African Americans into colleges and graduate schools?

JC: I think they were ahead of us because I cautioned Lyman and said to him, Lyman, you have a wife and some children, two children. They may fire you for 22:00your vigorous actions. And you're determined. He said well, if they fire me and they're going to let me stay fired, then I should be fired. We had state looking for someone to file as a guinea pig against the University of Kentucky.

DW: So did you seek out Lyman Johnson or did he seek out you?

JC: We sought him out first.

DW: For a test case.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Okay.

JC: We sought others, and he was in my office, and we had this conversation, and he said, "Mr. Crumlin, if you can't find anybody else, I'll do it." He says, "And I want to go all the way to Michigan to get a doctorate degree in history. I can get that here in Kentucky." So that's when I told him that I'll cool it for you because they may fire you. You've got a wife and two children at that time. I would hate to see you without a job.

DW: Was it difficult to find a plaintiff for that case?

JC: Yeah.

DW: Did you or Lyman Johnson suffer any threats?

JC: Oh I got rotten tomatoes and rotten fish and dead rats thrown against the house saying I was living in at that time on Robert Brown's home. And he told me I had to move or tear down my sign, our sign out front, James A. Crumlin, 25:00lawyer, and they had seen that in the Louisville Times and because he cooperate. He came up here from Alabama, and every evening she'd come by my office and made me share the story at noon, Louisville Times it was then. She said come and listen for me, sit and listen to, and then the Madisonville paper.

DW: Madisonville?

JC: Exactly, I guess it was. Madisonville paper had me every time it came out as a troublemaker. I wasn't a troublemaker, I just wanted them to stop denying us the right to go in and other places, and so we kept on trying to negotiate. See our theory was first we tried to negotiate. If negotiations didn't do any good, if there wasn't any law, we would try to get some law on the books. Once 27:00we got the law on the books, we then would try, we'd go to court. We went, Happy Chandler was governor, and we went to see him, he says, "I haven't got long to be governor but I'll do the best I can."

DW: Was he cooperative do you think, Governor Chandler?

JC: Yeah. He says, "If you need any help and I can be of any help, let me know."

DW: Do you feel that he was helpful in this process?

JC: He said so.

DW: He said so huh.

JC: Yeah, I went to his house and he fed me and in Versailles.

DW: In Versailles. Do you remember going down to Adair County?

JC: Yeah.

DW: in Columbia in 1955 and arguing that case.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Can you kind of describe that situation for me?

JC: Well, we went down there and we found about two grades were on the second floor and two grades on the third floor of a house.

DW: Of a house.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Why was that?

JC: Negro house because of separation of the races. And the infamous day law.

DW: Day law, yes.

JC: Yeah. They'd fine you a thousand dollars a day if you mix grades of teaching. So we went to the high school, white high school, and I asked the 30:00superintendent, "Why can't the Negro children avail themselves of all the luxury?" and the superintendent of schools--I can't think of his name.

DW: Walker. Was his name Walker?

JC: I guess it was. So he said the day law and you're familiar with it. I said yes. Naturally. He said they've got my hands tied. I can't do anything 31:00about them. If you are thinking of bringing a suit, I'll have to argue it and fight just as big against you as if you were on the same side. I'm telling you that because you'll find it out eventually. We had the Willises were our first clients.

DW: Willises.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Earl Willis.

JC: Earl Willis. The first in federal court. Then I took them to court. We 32:00went down there and a fellow from Jones, he was stationed in Cincinnati.

DW: Donald Jones.

JC: Donald Jones. Did you know him?

DW: No sir. I don't know him, but I've only read about him.

JC: Well, he and I went down there. He said you're crazy.

DW: Now where was Jones? Was he from Cincinnati all his life?

JC: No. He'd been in New York.

DW: He's a northern man.

JC: Yeah and he, he said those guys put their hands in their pockets, and you stand up there as though you're telling the white man a liar.

JC: A school. They have a right to be educated. Our law says that. It must be done. I said is that your idea. He said yeah, that's it. Now the primary students were down there in the basement of a colored church on Pikeville Road in the back of a toilet, and when it rained, water was out there. That was true 34:00in Crofton also.

DW: Crofton, Kentucky. Where's that?

JC: It's between that and Madisonville.

DW: I see. Okay. Now were you worried about going down to Adair County to take care of this?

JC: No.

DW: Nope. Did you face, did you face much opposition or were you ever threatened down there?

JC: Wasn't threatened.

DW: Why did you end up going to Adair County? Did somebody ask you to come down there?

JC: Well, coming down there.

DW: Did he write you?

JC: What?

DW: Did Willis?

JC: No, he drove a truck.

DW: That's right.

JC: He drove his truck by here one day at my office on Walnut.

DW: Right.

JC: He said our case is going through. I had worse than they've got. They're good compared to. So I went down to look at them, at the situation and I came back and related it to Darryl.

DW: To Darryl, to Darryl?

JC: Dearing.

DW: Oh. James Earl Dearing.

JC: Yeah. He and I well, again I filed a suit and put his name on it with his 36:00consent, and we went to court here. Court , the court saying Mr. Crumlin said one thing, and the law, and the law of Kentucky is that you must have separate schools. I said, "Judge, that doesn't make any difference what the law of Kentucky is saying. If you decide that it's wrong, then you're supposed to say 37:00that law is unconstitutional and grant us our relief." Well, the judge did that.

DW: Who was that judge? Do you remember that judge? Was that Judge Swinford?

JC: No. Swinford from another county. We were in another county. But let me go on with this story.

DW: Okay go ahead. Go ahead.

JC: From the school in Adair County, there in Columbia. So a lawyer who 38:00represented the school board. I forget now what his name was.

DW: Was it Earl Huddleston? Was it a man by the name of Huddleston?

JC: Yeah. I think it was. But anyway, he and I are pretty good friends now. So he was saying to those three hundred men that were there with the Brown versus Board of Education, and it wasn't in Kentucky, and the Supreme Court didn't tell Kentucky to do anything. So I immediately got out and Jones, Jones 39:00said I must've been crazy. He said, I'm right there, the school board and, almost calling them a liar. I said that's the Supreme Court of the land, and what they ruled, what they say goes even though a state may not be involved 40:00directly in that particular incident to, that covers the land, the whole land. And Brown versus Board of Education and that other case Delaware, South Carolina and I think it was.

DW: Virginia.

JC: Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Missouri, some, anyway. I used to keep up with all that stuff.

DW: Yeah. Now do you recall working on the suit in Bowling Green in '63?

JC: I went down there and Swinford said to me now you've had so many years to 41:00have done something about this of the Supreme Court. What have you done? Absolutely nothing! Not done, doing that kind of thing around here. No. You get ten minutes. I'll give you ten minutes to go in that room right over there and come back and tell me what you do."

DW: This is Swinford talking to the board of education.

JC: Yeah.

DW: At Bowling Green.

JC: Yeah. So we've got a board. And we have to go by Judge. He said, "I 42:00don't care about the board. This is the court talking. Your responsibility to come by and tell me the court. I am the court." The judge's place was sitting out there where the people normally would sit. He said, "I am the judge. Wherever you see me is the court. I am the court. The court ordered 43:00you to and I, you tell that board that the court says you must do something in ten minutes. But now it's five minutes. Come back in here and tell me what you're going to do. If you don't, I will tell you what you're going to do."

DW: What happened?

JC: They came back and said we're deciding to go ahead and let them come on to our school and hope it meets the approval of the board. He said if it doesn't, 44:00it won't make a bit of difference. The court said that's his order.

DW: Why do you think that took so long until 1963 for the Bowling Green schools to integrate?

JC: What--

DW: Why do you think it took until 1963 and a court order for the Bowling Green schools to actually mix the races?

JC: You get to the court and when we got to the court, there was and many years had passed and we were walking around with his robes held back like that with his hands in his pockets like he was, but he gave them the order and as far as 45:00we had to go. The judge up there said, "Now y'all have to do something about that. He got to before me. I'm not going to let you put me on the spot. Do 46:00something for these boys. Let me know now what you're going to do. I'll give you five minutes to whisper to each other what you want." Said, "But do something. So they said at the end of that five minutes, they said, "Judge, if you'll dismiss it, we'll do something about it." He said, "I'm not going to dismiss it until you tell me what you're going to do."

DW: Right. Right.

JC: Let's see. I think we're in London and Barber, Barberville, an order for 47:00schools. Freedom of choice and Louisville. On way up there, and so the judge 48:00said don't bring me any of that up there.

DW: That's what Swinford said?

JC: No, this was the judge up there.

DW: Who's that?

JC: I forget now who he was. But I remember what he said because I was standing right there and listening with all ears and to find out what they are going to do. So I didn't have to file suit in Barberville and let me see. Some 49:00other court and finally word came from Frankfurt let these people come into your classrooms. I don't want any other suit filed and that may be filed if you don't cooperate and he said, "When the legislature meets we're going to have to take that law off the books or make it null and void." There was other cases 50:00on, and are still on there last time I heard. And.

DW: Yeah. Let me ask you. What did you think of Judge Swinford? Judge Max Swinford. Do you remember him?

JC: Yeah.

DW: What is your, what do you think of him? What's your opinion of him?

JC: He was like Judge Ford and I thought Judge Ford was tops.

DW: Judge Ford. You think Judge Swinford was like Judge Ford.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Yeah. Where did you find the most opposition to integration of schools when you were serving as attorney for the NAACP?

JC: See he's living.

DW: Who?

JC: The superintendent.

DW: Of what school?

JC: Of Owensboro.

DW: Owensboro.

JC: Yeah. Davie County. I think it was the lawyer had something to do with 52:00it, and that was pro-segregationist and he , discrimination all the way down the line, and he said to me, "Mr. Crumlin, you may be of that opinion, but there are a thousand people with a different opinion." I said maybe there are 2000, 3000. He said, "I just said a thousand." And then he said, "But you are closer to 53:00being right in your estimate than I was in mine." "Uh huh." I said, I interrupted and I said, "Look. I'm not here necessarily of my opinion and I'm not backing up on my opinion." I said, "But I repeated to you word for word out 54:00of court decisions, the Supreme Court of these United States." He said, "Well that doesn't mean anything." I said it again. I won't say that exact words. He said and then we're saying that the Supreme Court. I said, "They started over in Adair County." I said, "But you know it and I know it. Now once the Supreme 55:00Court speaks, it doesn't have to speak to every state in the union. It's the law of the land." He said, "Is that what you really think?" I said, "Yeah. Don't you?" He said, "No. I don't. I say if we're not a party, we're not a party." I said, "Well, tell that before Judge Brooks."

DW: And who was this saying this?

JC: A lawyer with the school board.

DW: Which school board?

JC: He was the lawyer for two different school boards at least. This time he 56:00was for the Davies County.

DW: That wasn't Union County or Webster County?

JC: No.

DW: Davies County.

JC: Davie. Now Union County you just , to being judged together. My first cases down there. A white woman. He won that decision. I lost that one to him.

DW: What case was that?

JC: We were in Union County down there Clemmons home. Where they, what's the name of that?

DW: Morganfield, Sturgis.

JC: Morganfield. I can't think of it.

DW: Down there.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Henderson.

JC: Not Henderson, but around toward.

DW: Madisonville. Dixon, Clay.

JC: Clay.

DW: Clay.

JC: The mayor of the city who was Cadillac and crossed the highway, and I have a little lady said that the Supreme Court has spoken and Mr. Crumlin said and I 59:00should be , by the Supreme Court, the decision. So she took her two children, a boy and a girl.

DW: Was that the Gordon, was that Mrs. Gordon?

JC: Gordon, Louise Gordon.

DW: Louise Gordon. Yeah. Now did you have to persuade her to file this suit or how did you come into contact with her?

JC: She had already done it and when she had started.

DW: She had already what?

JC: She'd already started it.

DW: How did she come into contact with you?

JC: She heard about me getting started. You know the one thing we're involved 60:00in a matter, people say somebody else is working that now and refer you to them. So somebody referred her to me.

DW: I see.

JC: I went down there and Thurgood asked me to go down there and he said well, we'll send you the a retainer of a thousand dollars and he sent me the retainer.

DW: This is Thurgood Marshall.

JC: Yeah.

DW: So did he finance the NAACP headquarters financed these lawsuits.

JC: Yeah. See he was with the NAACP then although later he fell out, and he 61:00withdrew and see then what's his name, Jack Greenberg and Jim Navrit were working with Bob Carter on it.

DW: Let me ask you, did other states have as many court cases in the late '50s as there were in Kentucky?

JC: I won more. It was easier for me to win them.

DW: You think it was easier for you to win in Kentucky.

JC: Yeah.

DW: Why do you think that?

JC: The white people were here were a different breed.

DW: White people were a different breed.

JC: Yeah, than ones in South Carolina and Atlanta. McHenry and I were working together.

DW: Lewis McHenry.

JC: Lewis McHenry, the old man, not the young boy.

DW: Is his son in Louisville now?

JC: No. I don't know where he is now.

DW: Okay.

JC: But his son was here and working at the court, clerking. Everybody was 63:00doing things they shouldn't have done. But he was working that too.

DW: Did, was there a specific strategy that the NAACP had after the Brown decision occurred? What, did these cases come about coincidentally or did you seek out opportunities to file cases? How did all that come about?

JC: Well, we heard there was a still trying to operate under Plessy versus 64:00Ferguson, I guess it was, where separate but equal. That wasn't working.

DW: Right.

JC: And so I came to Kentucky in the first place because I understood that the white persons here were more considerate, and it was more likely that we could get some cooperation here. First better than we could in South Carolina or Georgia or Florida or Texas or New Orleans.

DW: Do you think you were more active as an NAACP lawyer in Kentucky than perhaps the NAACP lawyers in the other states in the south?

JC: Or more successful.

DW: More successful.

JC: Yeah. See I filed most just about. I had filed about as many suits as Matthew Perry had filed. But Matthew Perry lost.

DW: Who's Matthew Perry?

JC: He's a judge now in Greenville, South Carolina, and he at that time was a 66:00lawyer along with me.

DW: Oh, okay.

JC: But he is now a judge. And, a federal judge and he's.

DW: Kentucky's experience with school desegregation in this period. How would you describe it?

JC: Well, at that time way back there. You had some school, about one school in all. There was (). Like Crawton, over down there. () File a suit, give us a 67:00little time.

DW: Who said this?

JC: Lawyer of the School Board.

DW: Was this in Hop-, Christian County?

JC: Yea.

DW: Ok.

JC: So, we didn't file a suit then. Although our lawyer lived in the town.

DW: McHenry?

JC: McHenry. But um, we didn't file a suit there. Because they asked us not 68:00to, someway along that line. But it took time because, well, the moving that has been done across the years. Getting on. We didn't file a suit then. But on whole, Kentucky, () Ned Breathitt. Did you knew who Ned Breathitt was? Ned 69:00Breathitt had involved public accomodations. Open () them to everybody. Forgot race or color, and took them all. So, () no more. Typically I got () lawyers, doctors, . But now they all away. The ones I not keep up on.

DW: Mr. Crumlin, where did you find the most opposition to integrated schools, 71:00in Kentucky?

JC: Owensboro (). Henderson, they did there around. Most of the time, they said they want our side, and we're right. () other people, () for two or three 72:00years, and we didn't file there, but in... You called it a few ago. It's not Hopkins...

DW: Clay?

JC: Not Clay, it's the other way.

DW: Sturgis? Or Henderson?

JC: No...

DW: Dixon? Madisonville?

JC: No, Madisonville is in Hopkins County.

DW: It's not Bowling Green, not Fulton?

JC: No it's way west.

DW: Fulton? Paducah?

JC: No. () way down south, they've been and a lot of others.

DW: Were there any particular judges that were a little bit more, uh, cooperative with the integration law suits than others?

JC: Uh, yea... Judge Micks, used to say to -

Dw: Which judge?

JC: Micks.

DW: Meigs?

JC: Micks.

DC: Micks.

DC: What did he say?

JC: He said, 'What made you all so small?' He said, 'Why in the heck, I don't want to say those words, why in the hell didn't you all file here?' And he goes 'got more money.' () And its going to be that way for a long time. And we 75:00didn't never. Trouble then in Hardin.

DC: Which county?

JC: Hardin.

DC: Harlan?

JC: HARDIN.

DC: Hardin County, Elizabethtown. Was that, did you have a law suit there?

JC: No, they withraw.

DC: Were you threatening a law suit?

JC: Yea, we were going to file in Hardin, and in London. () Were going to have 76:00to hire some more lawyers, then run us round from cover to cover. Then news to the governor, Ned Breathitt, said public accomodation, accomodation that is owned there by the governor (), then a lot of schools had been segregated, opened up schools. But first there was the governor, said what he did.

DC: Um, who would you give credit to, besides yourself, who would you give credit to for the success of desegregating schools at this time.

JC: Here in Kentucky?

JC: Dearing.

DC: Dearing?

JC: Yea.

DC: Why him?

JC: He and, ah, he helped me a lot. He put his ring in the (), a player.

DC: What university?

JC: Wayne.

DC: Wayne, in Michigan?

JC: Yea.

DC: Wayne State, Wayne State University?

JC: Yea, up there, near Detroit. Detroit, or Michigan, or one of those cities.

WC: Do you remember when the busing order was given here in Louisville in the seventies, by Judge Gordan? The merger of the two school systems?

JC: Yea.

WC: Now, were you involved with any of that?

JC: No.

WC: Did you, did you want to be involved with any of that?

JC: No.

WC: Why not?

JC: () feel like, I shouldn't get involved, because there was days () get fired. () lawyer, all the people involved.

WC: And you stayed out of it, huh?

JC: () I should have been in it.

WC: Did the NAACP, they didn't get involved with that suit any either, did they?

JC: Not necessarily.

WC: Did you ever fear for your safety in this process?

JC: No, we went to Burkesville, Reverend, two guys, and (), and I.

WC: To Burkesville?

JC: Yea.

WC: Were you safe there?

JC: We always were.

WC: What happened?

JC: Well, this, We left, they burnt a lady's tobacco field. There was a fire.

WC: Who's tobacco field was it?

JC: Uh, the white people, tobacco field. They owned it for miles. But we had corn. And they came there, and sit down, () this and that, looking for us.

WC: What county was this in?

JC: Down in... where was it... Cumberland County?

WC: Cumberland County?

JC: Yea, where...

WC: Burkesville?

JC: Yea, Where is Burkesville?

WC: I'm not sure.

JC: Probably in Cumberland. Down there near Cumberland. Because somebody was killed down there not so long ago. Fields of tobacco. () And I've got my money for (), and I probably won't ever get it.

WC: Right, I wouldn't count on it at this point. Mr. Crumlin, I appreciate it, is there anything that you want to say in closing?

JC: No, whatever you wanted me to say I've said, been working...

WC: I bet you're not.

JC: O, no, did other days, but now.

WC: I understand.