Oral History Interview with Brenton "Danny" Witherspoon

DAVID WOLFORD: …Wolford and it is the seventeenth of August, 2002. I'm here with Mr. Brenton "Danny" Witherspoon in Mattoon, KY. This is…we're in Crittenden County, but, uh, Mr. Witherspoon grew up in Webster County and attended the Clay School and graduated from Webster County High School class of 1965.

BRENTON WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: Would you just go ahead and kind of introduce yourself. Tell us when you were born and where you grew up.

WITHERSPOON: My name is Brenton Witherspoon. I was born the seventh of August, '47, in Marion, KY. I was raised in Blackford, KY. And I attended Clay School and graduated from Webster County High School in 1965. And later on I, uh, drafted in the US Army where I spent almost 13 ½ years. That's basically it.

DW: Wha… Describe the Clay School, the school building you attended as a child.

WITHERSPOON: The, very large building with, uh, brick, with a cafeteria, uh, huge gymnasium. Uh, they were known as the Clay Jets. Uh, I think all our teachers were very, very qualified, and very, very competent. It was a nice place to go to school. It was more or less a community school and with a lot of community pride.

DW: Uh, in the fall of 1956 you were in grade school at the Clay Building and two, uh black students had come to enroll in the Clay School. Uhm, and there was 2:00a bit of an ordeal there, at this elementary school. Do you recall this situation?

WITHERSPOON: I only recall the, the uh circumstances where there was an attempt to integrate the school. We didn't know how many. Uh, I don't even remember if I was at school that day. I only remember, uh, what I was told. That, uh, the parents had surrounded the school with their arms locked to try to prevent the integration of Clay School. At that time Governor "Happy" Chandler, uh, had been contacted and pressure was brought on him to try to stop the integration. And I think they was successful. Later on, uh, I don't remember Clay School being integrated.

DW: So you never attended, uh, school with blacks at the Clay school building? To your recollection?

WITHERSPOON: No.

DW: Do you remember a crowd outside the school building at all on those two days?

WITHERSPOON: Well, of course, that's a long time ago, that's forty… I, I don't remember. I just don't remember. I know there was, I know there was a crowd. From what I understand, uh, there was a lot of racial tension and, and uh, the community was totally opposed to integration of Clay School. And uh, but I think they were trying to do it in the, a legal, legal way without, without breaking 4:00the law. As far, I don't remember any violent confrontation. There may have been some pushing or shoving, stuff of that nature, but I don't, I don't know. Uh, but I wouldn't doubt it to hear it.

DW: Do you recall anything from your teachers talking about this at the time?

WITHERSPOON: I think we were shielded from that information because they wanted to protect us. I mean, whatever happened, happened, you know. Whatever, whichever way it went we would have to live it, you know. So, but I think every effort was made to protect the students

DW: Can you kind of describe the attitude of the county? You know your community was Blackford…

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW:… which was in Webster County. But perhaps, just kind of describe the 5:00attitude of the county overall about segregation and how the races coexisted in Webster County back then?

WITHERSPOON: I think they maintained the attitude of, of a what they liked to call "separate, but equal" but actually, uh, there was no equality. Uh, blacks were discriminated against in employment opportunities and, uh, and uh---even certain sections of the county, uh, that they would be physically in danger, uh, at that time. Some of them even feared of certain areas of the county. Uh, a black lady who worked for us, we were all ( ). I remember name was Miss Carrie 6:00Jones, and uh, somehow--- kids are very inquisitive, and we asked her, uh---somehow death, the question of death came up. And she was asked, "Miss Jones if you died where would she want to be buried?" And Mrs. Carrie said she wanted to be buried in Blackford. And that, that really shook me, because I knew that wasn't right. I was only, I was real young, but I knew that just wasn't supposed to be. And the next question in my mind was why would you want to be buried in Blackford? And she said because that was the last place the devil would ever look for her.

DW: So she knew darn well, that it was a segregated community and there weren't any blacks living there?

WITHERSPOON: And while she was there if we needed anything from the store, like 7:00house cleaning supplies or something. One of kids would have to go get it. She would not go to the store in a that community to get anything because she had great fear of, of a … there was that tension.

DW: She just couldn't be present in that store in Blackford?

WITHERSPOON: Hm-hmm. She had a…

DW: Was that a legitimate fear you think or was she just overly concerned or was that a legitimate concern?

WITHERSPOON: Uh, I think as long as she was with a member of the community there probably wouldn't have been a problem, uh….but I think that if she had tried to go down there by herself she may have encountered problems before she even got to the store. You know by virtue of the fact that she was black.

DW: Hmm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON: And I think she realized that. And again, I think she was, she was 8:00a very wonderful person. That I learned a lot from her.

DW: Did you encounter blacks as a kid other than that relationship with that woman who worked for your family? I mean did you ever play with black kids…

WITHERSPOON: No.

DW: …from the next community over? Ever come into any contact before high school really?

WITHERSPOON: No.

DW: No.

WITHERSPOON: No. None except…and when I got to high school the only relationship I had with any black students there… Um, had one kid that was smaller than me that I liked to traumatize and tell him stories that would, that scared him. I shouldn't have did it. But he thought I was a racist and I kind of played into it. And, uh, I liked to got into trouble over that, but I never did anything physically to him. I'd just tell him stories. He was younger than me. But anyway, uh, there was a girl there, Darlene Jones, that we talked about. And 9:00we were good friends and I, uh, copied off her. I can say that now because we long graduated. But, uh, she was a wonderful person and I am glad to have met her.

DW: But you didn't come into contact with her until the last couple of years of high school at Webster County?

WITHERSPOON: Right, right, my junior year in high school.

DW: Okay. During the fall of '56, shortly after the National Guard was at Sturgis to kind of ease the tensions there. They came over to Clay for that period I was talking about. Um, and I'm not worried about the details of those few days that the Guard was there, but do you know, could you say what was the attitude of the community toward the National Guard, towards the state, towards "Happy" Chandler in the years to follow that incident?

WITHERSPOON: I think the community felt like that, um, in talking… You see, in 10:00the country store environment you have people come and go. And people sit and they talk about the news of the day and they play checkers and they share the opinions or whatever of what's going on in current events. Um, I think the feeling was that this, this integration was being forced upon them. And they resented that, and furthermore, I think that they, they didn't want to integrate. I think that what we had here, a lot of that had to do with a, change in the status quo. They probably thought the way they went to school and the way blacks went to school. And them being in their little community and us being in ours that that was the way it would be forever more. And no body should ever change that or mess with that or. And, so and people don't take change very well 11:00sometimes. It's very abrupt, very traumatic, and I, I think it was for that community. Later on, uh, I feel like that, uh, they adjusted very well. But, uh, all that being said, uh, it probably changed today after the Civil Rights Act and so forth. Uh, I still appreciate that black people right here are discriminated against. I had to grow. When I went to Vietnam I was taken to surgery, I realized that a that divided is hard on a leadership team. No there may not be a black president. And that my life depended on what he did or failed to do and vice-versa. So as a combat soldier I can say that we was color-blind. 12:00And, uh, I think to get to know it, that bothered me

DW: Did many of your classmates or people that are about your age, did they go to Vietnam? From around here?

WITHERSPOON: We lost a, we lost two at that time out of Webster County. There was a, two of my very close friends, Steve Sharp and Charlie Eakins. Steve Sharp played basketball and a Charlie Eakins joined the Marine Corp after he got out of service, out of high school. And, uh, they were both ( ) a his wife was County Fifth Clerk of Webster county for some time. He was very popular in high school, very well liked, very well known. He, uh, I mean that doesn't sound like many…

DW: Oh, when you say two died, is that, how many traveled?

WITHERSPOON: Actually went? I am sure many more went than that…

DW: Do you think a lot of them came back to the community afterwards?

WITHERSPOON: Yes.

DW: How do you think that affected race relations here? You spoke of your personal experience, you know being out in the world. The war obviously changed you.

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: And it also changed your attitude of how you looked at other people.

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: Do you think others in the community, the Vietnam War and service had that kind of affect around here to people other than yourself?

WITHERSPOON: I think it did with, other people that begin to see through our eyes what we had saw. We tried to tell that story. Uh, I think things a, uh, changed, uh, quite a bit. It was like, once a veteran laid down his life for his 14:00country, uh, today. Regardless of whether his color is black or whatever, I feel like that he is entitled to the same respect as anyone regardless of his color whether it was me or a black soldier or anything else. I think that we're drawn into that. I'm not sure that we did immediately after the Vietnam War, but…

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON: I think that now we're beginning to recognize that and we're becoming more human.

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON: Does that make sense?

DW: Certainly. Uh, let's talk about Webster County High School. Uh, the building opened in, I believe, the fall of the 1963-64 school year, which was your Junior 15:00year in high school. You came from the Clay School over to the newly built and consolidated Webster County High.

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: And that same year a couple of black students attended the school. Uh, you know, what were the feelings at the beginning of that school year? Was there much discussion around the fact that blacks were now going to be attending school with whites at Webster County High School?

WITHERSPOON: Uh, I don't, I think the resentment and the tension. And I say tension because there was some tension there, but it was something that was understood and unspoken, unless there was something that brought it to the surface. Uh, and I think that's why-- I think these black kids understood that and I think they, uh, uh, knew that. I think they was very, very aware of that. 16:00And as we began to go to certain rituals, uh, like, uh, I don't know, graduation and so forth. Uh, some of this became evident. And some of this came out. And it became vocal and verbal. Some of them were actually verbally assaulted, you know. But as far as any fist fights or any, I don't remember…

DW: Hm-hmm. You don't remember much, any violence in the school?

WITHERSPOON: No.

DW: Do you remember the teachers or the administration taking any particular steps to make sure this went smoothly?

WITHERSPOON: I think they did. And I think that one thing, that it was a successful integration. Because we not had the kind of discipline and control, 17:00had they not had the kind of discipline in the school that they had, I believe that situation could have been very volatile and got out of hand and somebody would have got hurt. And, uh, but, uh as far as I know, racial slurs and stuff like that was frowned upon and would not be tolerated. You know, there was serious consequences. But you had to juggle that with the political atmosphere of who was making the comment. Was he the son of some politician or…? That put the principal in a very difficult position, I think.

DW: Do you recall any events around that? I understand, I understand what you are saying . Do you recall that actually ever happening? Like, perhaps some people were, some whites that opposed the blacks attending were dealt with differently than others?

WITHERSPOON: Right. Uh, naturally some of those people are still in our 18:00community today…

DW: Sure.

WITEHRSPOON: And I'm sure that, uh, and they were leading, very good citizens then and are now, but I think they along with everyone else had to grow. But at that time, uh, going back to that time, uh, it was unheard of and totally unthinkable of a black to marry a white. Or a black to date a white. At that time it was even questionable of whether even you could have a black friend or to be seen in the presence of a group of blacks. Does that make sense?

DW: Certainly. Yeah.

WITHERSPOON: It was, uh…. It was, uh, things that were unspoken, but 19:00understood, you know. Uh, and I, I don't think we're in that situation now and I think that, that we've grown. And I, and now looking back at the time, like any normal --- I won't say normal, I thought I was normal --- but like any fifteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen year old kid, I didn't want to see my school integrated. I didn't want to go to school with blacks. I didn't know anything about blacks. You know, I didn't know --- I thought they just wanted to take over our school. But how are you going to take over a school with four students?

DW: Right.

WITHERSPOON: You know. Today I am sure they have, uh, uh, changed in the ways. I 20:00am sure we have quite a bit of black class officers. Uh, black basket… we had black basketball players. We have uh, blacks taking leadership positions in the student community. Whereas in my day, it would have been unthinkable. You know? Could you have possibly imagined a black president of my class? No! Not even a black class reporter. You know. It would have been unthinkable. I am sure today that's not the case though. And I'm glad it's not.

DW: Uh, either the first couple integrated years in Webster County, meaning your eleventh and twelfth grade school year or maybe even the next couple of years, I am guessing you were still around here before you went into the service? Did you 21:00still live in the community?

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: Did a, during that time, did blacks play sports for the school?

WITHERSPOON: They did. I believe Union County--- seems like Union County integrated before us--- and uh, we learned that blacks were very good in basketball, very good in sports. And what I learned in my school was that blacks were very smart. Okay. And that put a lot of prejudice to rest like, uh, you're not dealing with a bunch of poor, dumb niggers, you know. Uh, these people were human and they were blessed. And they had goals and aspirations, just like we did. And, uh, we learned that and it was something I'd hold rest of my life. But 22:00at the time, before integration had happened, uh, I even remember in eighth grade class a play. And, uh, we did a play called "Old Black Joe." And we put on, uh, black soot with cold cream and white lips and the whole nine yards. And I went to spend the night with a friend. And his mother had a fit because she didn't want me going to bed with all this soot and stuff on my face. And, uh, today I think that would be considered very racist, but at that time it was quite normal. It was comical. It was funny. You know, "Camp Town Races, sing this song doo da, doo da…"

DW: You talking about a minstrel…

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW:…kind of show?

WITHERSPOON: Right. Uh, so, I do think that a… And it would have been absolutely unthinkable, our school system as far as I know, I don't think we played Union County. But…

DW: You never played Union County? Back then?

WITHERSPOON: I don't remember playing Union County High. Maybe it's not in our district, it may be in a different district. But just saying, had we played Union County High and we got beat--- we did play Providence High though, probably that's right. They played them. Uh, it was horrible to get beat with a team with black players.

DW: Did you guys…?

WITHERSPOON: I mean it was just unconscionable. It was, uh, just awful, you know. It was unacceptable.

DW: When you say we played Providence that means Webster County versus 24:00Providence High School?

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: And by that time, I am guessing, yeah, it was by, according to the record Providence was integrated.

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: So that's what you, so it was an integrated team, but there was a sizeable number of blacks on the team? Is that what you are saying?

WITHERSPOON: Right. Right.

DW: How did the community, how did the school react when they got beat? When the Webster County team got beat by another team that had quite a few black players?

WITHERSPOON: Uh, then you are dealing with the average population. You aren't dealing with just students. And you're dealing in the fever of the game, people get pretty involved in the game process. The fact, not just the fact that they got beat by another team--- would have been bad enough---but the fact that they got beat by another team with blacks on the team would have been almost totally crushing. So, you know that's, that's just in our competition and things….But 25:00being removed from that, from that area and going overseas and seeing a whole different environment, a whole different level of cooperation. Of course the military was integrated. And at that time we had open bay. We had blacks in our bay. We got up and ate breakfast with blacks and went to bed in the same bunks, barracks, open bay with blacks. We used the same showers. We used, you know. We didn't have any problems, you know. Unless you got some egghead in there that was going, that wanted to re-fight the Civil War. Then you…

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON:… then you had a problem. But that, that in the military that was very limited, I know. I never seen much of that, so… But this area here is 26:00normally about 10 to 20 years behind the rest of the nation. So whatever, in 1976 or 1972 or 3, by 1976 I was in Ft. Hood and I had a son and daughter. Skateboards was the rage at Plains, TX, around Ft. Hood. I came home and my kids, they went to Crittendon County High School. And in 1990 skate boards became the rage in Crittendon County. Before that I don't think they'd even heard of a skateboard. So, it takes awhile for things to catch on fire and trickle down…

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON:…to the community.

DW: And then, so you are just comparing that skateboard with the acceptance of integration it sounds like?

WITHERSPOON: Yeah.

DW: Your Senior year was the first year that blacks graduated from Webster 27:00County High School and the first year that they would have graduated from an integrated school in the county.

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: Can you kind of describe the ceremony and what took place, uh, that day?

WITHERSPOON: Well, I think it was a, a real learning experience for me. I was a class officer. I was class reporter, you know. But we had one of the largest classes, probably in Webster County High. Maybe, maybe it set the record. I think we had maybe about 133 which was a very large class. There was some squabble over, some of the guys objected to marching with the black girls in the ceremony. And my, I remember the faculty came to me and discussed that with me. 28:00And I think they had tried two or three other members of the class before they came to me. And they had done some rehearsals. And I think a couple of times one of these girls had got cursed out and got belittled and got, uh, I don't know if there was any racial slurs or anything, but, uh, uh…. I'm not going to say there wasn't. I don't know. I, I just know that it was a very traumatic event for the girl because the girl did not want to graduate. She didn't want to come to her own graduation. She was not going to come to her own graduation. So…

DW: That was, was that Darlene?

WITHERSPOON: That's Darlene Jones. And my principal approached me and asked me if I would march with her down the aisle. And I, of course at that time I was shocked because I let everybody know at that time I believed in a stamp that said "Separate, but equal." Let the black people do their thing and we'll do our thing. I wasn't interested nor did I support integration. But I just wanted to be a Southern gentleman and kind hang on to the status quo, if that makes sense.

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON: But I wasn't rude or crude about it. I was very, I never mistreated anybody or ( )anybody. So anyway, he asked me to do that and I had to graduate. And I thought that…at first I, at first I thought, I didn't know whether I 30:00wanted to or not because I was confused. I didn't know whether, how it would be accepted. You know.

DW: Were you concerned about your own safety?

WITHERSPOON: Not mine as much as I was hers.

DW: Okay.

WITHERSPOON: Uh, uh, or even both, you know. But then I thought, "Well, hell, here I was, my class had thought enough of me to elect me as the class reporter and so forth." That we needed to walk this trail. My school needed to cross this bridge. We needed to have this graduation ceremony and the black students needed…

END OF SIDE A

START SIDE TWO

WITHERSPOON: And uh, I got to school that night to graduate. As we walked down the aisle, me and Darlene, uh, hand in hand. There was the students and then there was a crowd behind the students, uh, it seemed like the gymnasium was packed, uh, which my class president had had an accident, him and my cousin and we bothered towing him and then ( ) They wasn't able to graduate. So outside that trauma of not having a class president and everything we still it was going on with this graduation ceremony. As we walked down the aisle, I noticed that 33:00there was people who were spitting at other people. Now this was an event that we had worked for for twelve years, you know, to graduate. This was our, our day.

DW: Hm-hmm.

WITHERSPOON: And at first, I dropped my head, and it… I didn't notice how Darlene reacted to it, but I held her hand tight, I don't know, to me. So we kept walking until we, until we reached the place where we set down. And…rather than duck my head and feel depressed and, and all that. I think I raised my head just a little higher and threw my chest out just a little bit 34:00further because I felt like, they had really taken that school and denigrated it, that was their problem. And we would hold hands across that gorge. On the way out, uh, we started with lo the very few black students we had in the school. And we came out it was totally their turn and so the other black people who were in the hall way. And almost, each one of those without exception handed me a bill. And I consider that one of my greatest contributions to that school. And I am very proud that we walked that trail.

DW: How did, uh, you know after graduation and maybe even days after, you know, was there any more said about this event? Or was…?

WITHERSPOON: I never heard anything about it. Nobody ever made any comments to 35:00me about it either pro or con, which I expected. You know. I didn't know when I stepped out into the hallway, uh, but I was relieved. I was really pleasantly relieved and, uh… But it had been an event that I will never forget for the rest of my life. Uh, very few people have I told that story to. So…

DW: How would you describe race relations in Webster County since you graduated?

WITHERSPOON: Uh, I think… I think they are improved to a point like where they have to be. You know what I mean? I don't think in Webster County, I think 36:00Webster County is still discriminatory in a lot of ways. Probably in the areas of employment and social, and social containment, you know. I think there is still this "You have your place" thing. Even though I think some of those barriers have been broke down that, that they still have a long way to go.

DW: Is the, is the county as segregated residentially, you know, and geographically as it once was?

WITHERSPOON: Yes, yes.

DW: Pretty much the same? There's still…?

WITHERSPOON: Pretty well.

DW: …black areas of town?

WITHERSPOON: We probably still have a black section of town. Uh, Blackford has no black section….

DW: Still?

WITHERSPOON:…because there's no blacks.

DW: Right. Dixon?

WITHERSPOON: Clay…I don't know about Dixon. I know Clay does. Clay has a black section, but I think in Clay some of them have been moving into white areas or previously white areas, so but that's probably for the first time in that county's history. And I, it's kind of a step at a time type thing and uh, I don't…Providence, they have an area up there where the---of course they, they 38:00go to school there and are integrated--- but they still have a black section of town. Where you are going to see, where the barriers have been broke down, the racial barriers, is a, in my opinion when you start seeing them bury black people in white cemeteries. And stuff like that, which I, I never seen. And I don't believe---they might now and you know it's not wrong, it's not right for me to say it won't ever happen, it may happen. But still, still that's separation, we'll do what we have to, but we're not going to do any more than 39:00that type thing.

DW: Uh, when Webster County High School integrated, you know consolidation and integration kind of came together. I'm guessing, I, we don't know this right now sitting here, but I am guessing part of the reason these blacks students attended Webster County High when they did the first year or two was probably because they were consolidating the high school and they were getting away from the old community schools.

WITHERSPOON: Yeah.

DW: Had that not happened in 1963, the fall of '63, uh, when do you think that the schools would have integrated?

WITHERSPOON: That would have been a, that would have been a whole new ball game. That fight would of took place, it would have gone from community to community.

DW: Each community would have had to integrate?

WITHERSPOON: Right.

DW: And do you think it would have taken a few, some time I am assuming for that 40:00to happen?

WITHERSPOON: Sure.

DW: Quite a bit?

WITHERSPOON: And probably not happened as fast.

DW: Right.

WITHERSPOON: Had it not been for consolidation. But, uh, my dad and there was a lot of other people who opposed consolidation. The theory was that the county could save money by putting everybody under one roof and you would have more benefits and more, different options, classes, more opportunity, and I, and so forth. And I'm not sure that that played out exactly like that.

DW: Right.

WITHERSPOON: Because up unto that time each community had its own private little school. I think each community when they lost their school and they did consolidate, they lost something. They lost that community esprit de corp. They 41:00lost a part of their identity if you will. And I, I'm not a consolidation advocate. So…even though I am all for integration.

DW: Right. You just talking about for a better education in a smaller setting.

WITHERSPOON: Yeah.

DW: Yeah, I understand. Mr. Witherspoon thank you. I appreciate your sharing your stories today.

WITHERSPOON: I hope I've been helpful.

DW: Yeah, no problem.