Oral History Interview with Pierre Jackson

DAVID WOLFFORD: I'm here in Henderson, Kentucky. Today is the 16th of August, 2002. I'm here with Mr. Pierre Jackson. Mr. Jackson, would you just give me a little bit about your background, where you're from, where were you born, where did you grow up?

PIERRE JACKSON: I was born in Detroit, Michigan. I lived in Indiana and Kentucky, spent most of the time in Kentucky and had my education here in Henderson-Douglass, left Henderson-Douglass and went to Kentucky State University as it is called now. Went to Murray State and master's at Murray State plus additional hours at Evansville and other schools as well. So it's been a very productive as such. My wife is still living. I have four children, two boys and two girls. All have finished school. One is a doctor. One 1:00daughter works at American Airlines. Another daughter works in LA at one of the companies ( ) and what not. My youngest son is a minister, and he has started his own church in town worked a number of years at ( ) in Evansville. So that's two girls and two boys and ( ) two, four grandchildren. Not bad for an old man.

DW: Now how old were you when you came to Kentucky, do you remember?

PJ: About nine years old. My great great grandfather lived here, and he was originally a slave in the state of Kentucky and he was very fortunate. The people that he lived, where he the house is now, he lived over on the top of the 2:00hill and very fortunate because he had the chance to learn a trade, carpentry. And a number of the churches in Henderson, both white and black, had his services and his son was responsible also. Even some of the churches that you'll find, if you look closely you'll find ( ) marking in there and his name was Burch ( ). So you'll see BC somewhere in the church. The church that we go to is about a hundred and ten, fifteen, twenty years old, First Missionary Baptist Church. He was a deacon there and also he helped to build that individual church. It's still standing after all those many, many years.

DW: I see and you attended Douglass High School here at Henderson.

PJ: Douglass High School.

DW: What year did you graduate from Douglass?

PJ: '45.

DW: 1945.

PJ: And went immediately, I was very fortunate because I had a coach by the name of Lorenzo Jones, and he was always looking for a place for his players and 3:00what not. So the night that I graduated he walked, met me out at the end of the stage, and he always called me Red. That's when I had hair. He said, "Red, what do you want to do?" Do you want to go to college?" How is it a nineteen-year-old kid is given to make a decision like this. Right then on the spot. So I told him, "Well, yes I'd like to go to college." He said, "You've got it." Said ( ) set up for you to go to school. He's already done it, and we, I didn't know it then, but my family knew his family in Huntington, West Virginia where we lived there, and his family was from, his wife's family was from Ohio right across the river there. But he was instrumental in getting a great number of players into school, a great number of students in school at Kentucky State and places. He was a fellow who was a graduate of Howard 4:00University. His fellow, his father, he said Jones was the principal of the old Douglass School here, and he was one of the founding partners of a lot of big things that they had.

DW: So Hiss Jones.

PJ: Hiss Jones, yes. You've read about him also.

DW: Read about him a little bit.

PJ: Then he worked for the insurance company, what, Domestic I believe, Domestic Insurance Company out of Louisville. There's another insurance company in Chicago. He's a very fine man, and he worked you hard, but he always, that was always a great number of rewards for it. I don't know whether he's made it into the Henderson Hall of Fame or not, but he was very instrumental in seeing that us folks got a chance to go to college and to come back. A great deal of people came back. I had no idea of coming back, but he was the first person after I graduated that said come on back to Henderson. Good things for you ( 5:00) teaching and what not, whatever. So we came back, and my wife said that's the biggest mistake I ever made in my life. But I've enjoyed it. We've seen a good number of things happen, both good and bad. It's surprising when you run into people that you taught so many years ago, and they still are very appreciative of the things that happened to them in that period of time. But he was a very fine man. His wife also she was how do you say it, sort of mothered everybody, was almost every weekend before a game or after a game there was something at their home for the players. You work a little harder if you're going to get a little something afterwards.

DW: Very nice.

PJ: Very good. Very good.

DW: Where did you attend school before Douglass High School here in town?

PJ: That's the only place I've ever attended school.

DW: Did it serve students that were I guess younger than ninth grade also?

PJ: There was Douglass up until the ninth grade and then after the integration 6:00you graduated from Alves Street School was the elementary school down the street, and you graduated from that one and go to Douglass High School.

DW: Did you attend Alves Street School also?

PJ: Yes, I did.

DW: Before Douglass, okay.

PJ: ( ) I don't think but one of my children had a chance to go to, I think my one, yeah, two. Deborah and Mike I believe went there.

DW: To Alves.

PJ: Alves Street School. They went on to the other school and such.

DW: Back when you were a student, I know you later taught at Douglass High School, but what were the, how did those school buildings compare to the white schools here in Henderson?

PJ: There was no comparison. You know that. They'd been there, you do the best with what you can. They enough to get by, the standards weren't as great as they were at Douglass Schools. They tried as well to make it look good, but 7:00a lot more could've been done in most of those areas. For instance Douglass was built in a little, what do you call it? Little gymnasium that you run up and down the floor once and you're at the end. You played all your basketball games there. But I guess that was probably one of the better gyms in this area until you went to Madisonville and Hopkinsville and other places like that where they had a larger African American population and more people that were really interested in the school system doctors, lawyers and what not. Hopkinsville is full of lawyers and doctors and Paducah, Kentucky and other places that had large schools and had good sports programs. So we had probably more of that here in town. That probably would've helped later on to keep the school in town 8:00the way it should've been kept because the school were in good shape ( ) a number of years. One of the former students bought by the name of William Dixon Jr. He bought it, bought the school and then the ( ) and then he sold it and then to get all the things out of the, how you want to say it, to represent education or to represent the kind of building that you had, it was demolished completely. Now they have a home there for the, how you call it, the homeless and what not in that particular area that's run by the city. But it could've, it could've still been there like some of the other schools because the old Barrett School is still standing there, and they remodeled it and they've used it, recreation and also they used it for the housing area headquarters.

DW: Who did, did Douglass High School serve blacks outside of the city of Henderson?

PJ: No, most of the students that don't live in Henderson came from the county, 9:00and you had a county high school for a while and then when that--

DW: A black county high school.

PJ: Henderson County High School, is that the name of it. Yeah. Then when that quit using it then everybody came from those areas into Douglass. They were bused in from those particular areas. ( ) and all the other areas. I guess most people came from ( ) and most of the people that's where they lived. Then they had one school, I think it's Seventh Street School, which was an elementary school up there, and it disappeared also when they had integration. They started putting kids in those other schools.

DW: Can you maybe describe the teachers at Douglass from a student's perspective before you or as a teacher's perspective as well?

PJ: Go again, say it again now.

DW: Yes, what, tell me about the teachers at Douglass High School.

PJ: All the teachers were degreed teachers. They were from every school and Howard University, Tennessee State, and Kentucky State and all around. People, they had certification. They were good in their individual fields. Consequently the range from those who were in age to those that were just finishing school when I was there, there were something about ten or twelve teachers and it's a very good mixture there. The math teacher there, Mr. ( ) probably one of the best math teachers in this particular area, and he was one of the teachers that they carried into the other program. LD Jones was the shop person besides being a coach. He helped kids, and he worked in the program, 11:00off-season and what not. Then there was Herbert Kirkwood. He was the principal. He was from Indiana University, master's plus degree, wife also Mary had degrees and I think she has a master's. See myself, William Dixon who was probably one of the better shop people in the area. Sandy Mae Dixon, she was from I think Fisk, Fisk University and she taught history. We had Miss Eugenia Mundey who was the home economics person who could do it all and she was very much thought of. She stayed until retirement and then she went out. She enjoyed the kids and she started the center for kids in her home and what not. Then we had people who came in after a period of time from other schools, 12:00Tennessee State and where else. ( ). It wasn't just strictly teachers from the state of Kentucky. They came all over. We had a good make up--

DW: So they weren't just Henderson people either. They--

PJ: No, no, no.

DW: Many came--

PJ: From all over. They came from all over the area. That helped to, helped the students and such to chance to see somebody besides home folks.

DW: Right. Did you play sports there at Douglass?

PJ: Yes, I played sports. I played everything they had. Football, basketball and LD started a boxing program. That's when I started boxing, and then I received a football scholarship from Kentucky State University, and that's how I got through school and I played there, and then I was the captain of the boxing team and captain of the football team the last year.

DW: At Kentucky State.

PJ: Yeah. I won the, I won the state of Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, boxing championship. We lost in the finals in National Golden Gloves in Chicago, Chicago Tribune, was beaten by a fellow by the name of Bascomb who was really a professional in disguise. He was extremely tough. I lost that, and the peculiar thing about that, my mother never saw me fight. She never saw me play a game of sports. This happened one night she was sitting by an old Philco radio and she happened to have turned it on. It said well, this is the Golden Gloves from Chicago Stadium and the fight next is the ( ) Bascomb versus from Saint Louis and Pierre Jackson from Henderson, Kentucky. And of course I fought for ( ) had to go from, when I was in school you went from Frankfort to 14:00Louisville, from Louisville to Cincinnati because see in Kentucky you couldn't fight. You couldn't fight the white fellows, if you want to say it that way. So you had to go that way because you're competition ( ). So actually you had a white team and you had a black team and both of these teams went to Cincinnati. Then at Cincinnati they didn't know what you looked like. You fought, and so we won there and I coached the team there at Douglass ( ) and another at Kentucky State also making ( ) really they didn't have a boxing coach as such. So they let me do that because that was an outside activity. We fought in Lexington. As far as that was, see if I can think of the fellow's name. This was the Herald Leader newspaper Templeton, Templeton, Ed Templeton 15:00was the man's name, and he was a very fine fellow. He took care of us very well and saw to it that we had the best of everything because we brought a lot of glory to the city of Lexington and made it very nice. But very fortunate there at school, very fortunate with the boxing program. I was able to make the Hall of Fame there at Kentucky State I think the first round they established the Kentucky State Hall of Fame, and I was the captain of the football team at that time and I went in both in boxing and football. I lost, I lost one devilish fight and that was the last fight in Chicago. But we had some good fellows that we worked with and a number of people and that fellow, this fellow in Evans, at Henderson named coach of the Henderson City Schools a fellow named Bill Dawson. He was at University of Kentucky at that time. He played football up there on 16:00scholarship, and he would come down almost every night to the boxing meet. He would sit there rooting and hollering for us and such. That's where I met him there at the boxing tournament, and then he came here and he's always talked about the boxing there in Lexington.

DW: He was from, not from here though.

PJ: No, he played University of Kentucky football.

DW: I see.

PJ: And ended up up there.

DW: When you played other sports besides boxing at Douglass, who did you, what other schools did Douglass compete against?

PJ: Well, they had regular conferences. We were members of the Kentucky high school--I forget now what it is--it's in that listing so you know it's different from the white program. So they had their whole program. LD Jones was one of the persons who helped establish that. Every, almost every town that had black 17:00school in the state of Kentucky participated in athletics, basically football and basketball. Our biggest rival was Owensburg, Kentucky. What was the name?

DW: Western High.

PJ: Western High. And the fellow there named Joe Kendall. Have you ever heard of Joe Kendall?

DW: I don't think so.

PJ: He was an All American at Kentucky State, and I think he played a little professional football and he came back to Owensburg. He consequently had, that was always a Thanksgiving Day game. Everybody came from all over to see that particular game. It was a good rivalry but ( ) was great in basketball, not football, Hopkinsville had football. Paducah had football. Mayfield, Kentucky had football, and then as you're going up the other way, you had other schools in that area. The mountain teams that played up there. We won the, when they 18:00integrated, we had to play the--oh gosh, I can't think of the name of the team. We, the first time you ever played a team from the other leagues. We played the last year, was it '65, '64 something like that. We beat the team here. We beat them here that game to set up was it to set up, what is it. For the state championship we went there. You couldn't get in the place. It's just like that ( ).

DW: You're talking about when you're coaching though at this point.

PJ: Yeah.

DW: So Douglass was still, I guess the athletics had been integrated to where--

PJ: No, it hadn't been integrated.

DW: Oh it wasn't.

PJ: It was before integration because when integration came, boom. The program 19:00was kicked back completely. Teachers were placed where they wanted ( ) wherever they wanted to place. Teachers left here as such, and kids I guess they weren't encouraged to come for the sports program. I guess they weren't encouraged to come for the sports program over there at, at that time it was called City High School.

DW: So Douglass High School never played a white team.

PJ: Oh yes.

DW: That's what I'm talking about. Was the sports became integrated I guess before ( )

PJ: Football. Sports was integrated. That was the last year of it. Then we played basketball, and we had probably the best team around here, and we played I think it was, played Holy Name, and I think Jim Dixon scored something like, Jim Dixon was one of the outstanding ball players, Billy Dixon, Charles 20:00Marshall, who else? John Shirley, John Burris, those fellows were just terrific athletes. Some of the kids never went home. When school was out, practice, they'd go out on the playground and play basketball at night. But we played football. We had a chance to play the white teams, and that's when we made it to the finals in the state. Basketball, I think maybe one year, but we came see--. When we got ready to play in the tournament, the kids received all kind of threatening calls on the telephone. I received those calls. People come by your house honking their horns, and the even the officials, they did not, they did not play a good ball game. That has been mentioned a number of times in the newspaper by the sports editor here. If it had been on better ground ( )we 21:00would've had a better chance. But at the same time do you remember when Lexington Dunbar won, ( ) coach, what was his name? Coach--

DW: Is it Louis Stout or ST Roach?

PJ: Roach was the coach and he--

DW: Sanford Roach.

PJ: ( ), and they talked before the game, and he played that slow down game, and he won his ballgame up there and went on to state. But we didn't play a slow down game, and consequently by the time the halftime came, Jim Dixon had X number of fouls. What's his name, coach's name. Gosh, I can't think of his name. In other words, the two tallest fellows we had, they were very, very bad shape. Charles Marshall had fouls, and of course City High School won the tournament. But we had to come back to play the second game. We wiped them off 22:00the board, wiped them off the second half in other words. When this, we lost in the finals of the, I guess it was called region at that time or whatever it was.

DW: District or region.

PJ: District I think and then you have to go to region and then the region when we got into the region, we wiped them out and then we had to play again.

DW: I see. I see.

PJ: So we beat them ( )

DW: What was the response to that? What happened in town after you--

PJ: That's what I'm saying. All this happened when we got ready to play City High School in the tournament. That's what all the calls came to the people from. Charles Marshall was--

DW: Before the game.

PJ: Oh yeah. Charles Marshall, I mean I wish you could've taped some of the calls he received and the other players, Jim Dixon. Other players that received the calls from people--

DW: Were the--

PJ: Threatening calls. We'll kill you, you so and so. You're this, that and the other. Don't belong over there and all those type of calls to my house we 23:00had ( )

DW: Do you think it affected the play of the players at all?

PJ: It probably did. But they didn't show it as well, but when you get to the point where you know if I bump you, it's going to be a foul called, and I don't have a chance and what not. That's really happening in some of the games. Also in the one we played in the regional when we played Davis County. Davis County had good ball clubs. Overall we had a good ball club too. I think on even ground we would've beaten them ( ), but we lost to them in the regionals, and they went on to the state. If you ever get, there is a picture up to the community center of that team and the, I think we only lost about six or seven or eight games in that whole period of time. Jim Dixon went on to be a great basketball player. Charles Marshall did too. Others did as well. So--

DW: But it sounds like you beat the Henderson City team--

PJ: The second time.

DW: In the region. What was the result after the game? You told me what happened before the threats and--

PJ: Well, I think everybody was sort of disgusted, and everybody, no matter what I do now but there was still that friction, these language and what not that happened within the total program, that night. But the kids, I mean it was terrible the calls that they received and things that happened. I had one of the fellows in my neighborhood said, "Mr. Jackson, don't worry." Said, "If anything happens, let me know and I've got my double barrel shotgun and I'll take care for you." But you hate to have things happen like that because of a sports affair. Consequently they played, our team played an exceptionally fine 25:00game in the second ball game, and we would've won, in other words we didn't win the district--

DW: I understand.

PJ: The second.

DW: But you won when it mattered.

PJ: Yeah, we won the regional. We would've loved to have won the district to have the trophy. But we had the trophy, the second place trophy. So we defeated the Henderson City School. Now Henderson County, it's a county school that we played in the regional. They beat us in the district. The thing that people don't realize is all these kids, they played together. They played on the playground.

DW: Outside of the school setting.

PJ: They go on and play everybody and Saturday and what not, nobody give a--. But when you get in there and you have officials that are sort of take the game. It makes a difference. The kids are don't plat their very best.

DW: I'm sure there is a lot bigger interest from the crowd's perspective too.

PJ: ( )

DW: If a, blacks and whites are playing each other on the street, there's not really something that's at stake. There's no school name. And nobody is really watching it except those that are playing. But I understand the difference.

PJ: The difference was and I think it affected us in the first ballgame. But the second ball game it didn't affect anybody. They did what they were supposed to do. The last game it was one of those things that you aren't going to the state, you know you aren't going to the state. But I think Dunbar is the one that went to the state. I believe, they ( ) won it ( ).

DW: You may be right. I remember hearing that too.

PJ: ( ) The peculiar thing, I did my practice teaching at Lexington-Dunbar.

DW: Really.

PJ: And I knew Roach and all those people up there, and I ran a boxing program there for them. The means of fundraising and what not. Lord, we ran the, came 27:00back a couple of years later on, and I ran the swimming pool program for them. ( ) Tillman, he brought me back. I should've stayed there. He wanted me to stay there. Very, very fine fellow. But Roach was the exceptionally fine coach. I think he's still there.

DW: I think so.

PJ: I don't know what, I know he's not coaching and such. But he turned out some tremendous basketball players. I think some of the kids played ( ) University of Kentucky ( ) and such. It's a heck of an experience when you hear kids tell you should I do or should I don't. Should I play or should I not play. Have a lot of parents who were there. Very protective towards where the kids were concerned, but that's a heck of an experience for kids to go through something like that when it's just a matter of a basketball game.

DW: Right. When you came back to teach at Douglass, can you just explain your 28:00teaching experience there?

PJ: I did my practice teaching at Lexington-Dunbar. When I came back, I walked right into the football program and Pete Rembert and I started with the program, football. So we had a chance to meet most of the fellows before school started. What did I teach? I taught health, sociology, biology, economics and physical education. You had the whole program there.

DW: Was that typical back then for a teacher to teach all those different subjects?

PJ: Oh yeah.

DW: Do you think at a white school that would've been typical?

PJ: Probably not so. There would be specialists. If you know the superintendent, you would normally get the kinds of things you want and I'm sure the coaches didn't have all those jobs too. But not only did you teach, but you coached and you did all the other things in the program. For instance I had plays and what do you call it, variety shows, and all those things to help to 29:00get money to take care of the individual programs that we needed. So it's a good experience. You got a chance to do those, and a number of teachers who came here, they had two or three years experience and they went some place else.

DW: When was your first year teaching at Douglass High?

PJ: '45, '49. I walked right out of college right into the job.

DW: '49.

PJ: Yeah.

DW: And I think one of the reasons you came back was the influence of your coach.

PJ: Yeah, LD Jones, yeah. I did that.

DW: So you were working at Douglass High when schools were totally segregated. In 1954 the Supreme Court made its landmark ruling about segregation. What did you, do you remember that day?

PJ: I guess I do.

DW: Or the announcement.

PJ: It never bothered me to the degree. I had been exposed to ( ) things 30:00that's supposed to be normal. Almost every place that I went even though I may be in a program. Other people would always want you to help. In other words the softball program and some of the recreation programs, we did what we could with the kids. They played, we start a game and the kids would come up there to the, what is it, field on, what's the name of that field there. Gosh, I can't even think of it. But we had our own program. We had our own programs. I worked in the summer recreation program, was a separate program, and you had, you had everything that anybody else had. In other words we had softball, football, basketball, we taught tennis. We went to Owensburg, Evansville to 31:00compete with the other schools, not other schools, programs. ( ) was over here. We went to Evansville where the coach was over there, I forget the fellow's name. Coach, he and Pete happened to play football together at Bluefield State, West Virginia. So we went over there. We'd swim with them. We played them in football, and there was always a rivalry between us two because of Pete as such and also the Lincoln, the Evansville-Henderson that mystique that you had. It was a good experience, and the thing about it is that Lincoln High School, you know, Lincoln High School, they went right on into the integrated program over there.

DW: Lincoln High School in Evansville.

PJ: They went right on into the program as a school, Lincoln High School. Not as ( ) other school. There were children, students that left Lincoln and went 32:00to other schools as well. I don't know whether they were

DW: Whites came to Lincoln is what you're saying.

PJ: I don't know.

DW: You're not sure.

PJ: I don't know about that. I'm sure that some may have been there because they always had a good track team. Of course like Calvin Martin who was all everything and can't think of some other fellows at the time. But they went to all--

PJ: The kids didn't lose anything even though there wasn't the integration in the school system. They had the chance to play outside even our little league program. We had our own little league program. We had the chance to take the kids to the tournament at Purdue University as a representative of Henderson, Kentucky. We really represented ourselves but as those things are you have to 33:00have a representative for a particular area and what not. You couldn't represent the Afro Americans in Henderson, but you had to represent Henderson as such. I think they done good. I think they won one game and lost another game. But it was a good experience for them to get a chance to be right on the campus. So swimming, we had everybody. Everybody come swim at our place. You come swim at our meets and taught lifesaving, water safety and all those particular things. So the kids here did not lose anything by being in a segregated school. The only thing that we always wish is that we had a little bit more in the sense of money and facilities where the kids, more kids could take part in, But we had Dixon Street, that used to be the Dixon Street field. We, it wasn't ours, but we used that for playing softball. You couldn't get up 34:00in, in the afternoon you couldn't get up the street because the kids would play there in that area. We had to let the young ones, the middle aged ones and the old and what not. Then the other end of town, which is now the field I was talking about at the other end of town, we'd have games up there also. So we had two places to play where all the kids got a chance to participate. That made it pretty nice for them as such. Then we'd bring in some of the other teams in the area. Some were white. Some were black and play in it as well. But it made it good for the kids. They had a chance to be exposed, and you'd be surprised how many kids go, do you remember and such and such a time when ( ) did this or when we did that. It makes you sort of feel good. But Pete was a good person to work with, and a lot of the kids that were coaches of the teams 35:00were former athletes of ours that took over the teams. There were a number of elderly people who had professional like baseball experience, and they helped with the teams. They had, we had a black baseball team as such and they traveled ( ) places as well. ( ) John Frances Byrd, he could beat anybody's baseball team. He was a good catcher.

DW: Now was that a school sponsored baseball team you're talking about or minor league or--

PJ: Recreation, recreation program. But he was from the school program, and he played semi-pro and everybody wanted him to play and he could've gotten a chance. He could've gone, football, basketball. He could take a football and kick it sixty-five and seventy yards. We never worried about it. ( ) Forget it because he was going to kick it. ( ) basketball he was good. He was a very good, ran track, high jumped and everything. His cousin, John Shirley I 36:00mentioned here before, and the Burris family was a very outstanding. I don't know the girls, the girls included too. But those kids, they played together and after they built housing area a number of years, they'd go from school to the housing area and play on the goals down there, basketball especially. Douglass was known because of its sports program, and they won the state championship, once, twice, once twice or basketball-wise. We did as well as we possibly could. A lot of the athletes from our school later on came on because my son was one of the outstanding ball players over there. What else is it? Swimming, we swam against Owensboro and Evansville, and those kinds of things just helped the kids to stay out of trouble as such. We don't have that type 37:00stuff now as much as we should have.

DW: Could you describe, how did the races get along together in Henderson in the early '50s?

PJ: No problem.

DW: No problem.

PJ: No problem at all. We just had to go to back doors and find doors and what not, and a lot of times you couldn't go in. There was a place on Elm Street and I went in, and my mother heard about it. She said, "Buddy," she always called me, "Buddy, come here. Let me tell you something." In so many words she said if you go in again, I'll knock your block off.

DW: This is your mother saying this.

PJ: My mother--

DW: For going into a white establishment.

PJ: For going in the side entrance or the back entrance. You don't go in anybody's place like that. I think most people try to instill in their children to go to their own places, and there were a number of places on Dixon Street, now it's called Martin Luther Drive, but the kids could go to and eat and what 38:00not and they good cooks and what not ( ). I know I went to a place up on Green Street into a restaurant, and that's when my mother, she said, nope don't you ever do that again. ( ), but I think the parents as well did extremely good jobs in helping their children to realize what they were going through and what was happening, and then we had a very nice NAACP group. We had a junior NAACP group. I think my son was one of the presidents. That group and they helped, they boycotted the Woolworth's restaurant and boycott some other places. They passed the word on to the Craven theater where you had to go upstairs that we're coming to boycott your place on Sunday, and of course the doors were opened and people got a chance to go in downstairs to that particular area 39:00because most of us ( ) still there are not a lot of places in Henderson where Afro Americans can have area large enough. But when there's a WC Handy festival was here that opened up another avenue because Craven Theater was a segregated theater and blacks had to go upstairs to see the movie. So they'd open up completely. WC Handy who formerly lived here. My grandfather and Ed Johnson and WC Handy were running buddies, and they, he stood up with my grandfather when he was married here on Dixon Street, and they played in one area sometimes and ( ) Kentucky sometimes and they ran them out of the city for ( ). But the theater was integrated. Most of the other places were integrated as such.

DW: When did that come about, the integration of town, the town residents and stuff?

PJ: Gosh you've got me there. But gosh, I can't--

DW: Wwas that after the schools or before?

PJ: After, I assume it was after the city schools. I can't remember the date. We, were we still, must've been the last year of I think after the schools. I can't remember, but our NAACP group met on Sunday and that was it. They went there and also the Kentucky Theater which was the one that was open strictly to whites. They were in there also.

DW: Was there any problem with that?

PJ: When you had as many people as we had, come on in. But go ahead.

DW: Right. Right. How did the school board, this is when you're teaching, when the Supreme Court gave this order and it, how did the school board respond 41:00to the idea of integrating its schools.

PJ: They were anxious. They were anxious. Stanley Johnson as I said he was, I think he was probably the main person of that particular group. There were a couple of other, I can't recall the names but there were a couple of other groups, a couple of other persons on that staff that were just, I don't know, they were just so very negative as far as it was concerned.

DW: When you say anxious. What do you mean they were anxious?

PJ: Anxious to--

DW: To integrate.

PJ: Integrate.

DW: Oh so they did want, the administration was for doing it.

PJ: Yeah, they wanted to do it because after I went out and talked to them and told them, I could do this, but I'm going to, in other words you were demoted to a degree from where you were to another area. I don't know whether that was a matter of trying to spread us out in the school system. But I didn't feel right 42:00going into an elementary school as such and ll my years' experience were in the high school. I think, I don't know I think one or two, ( ) Langley was one. I think Mary Cook was library, I don't think any more than four went to the city high school. The other two--

DW: Out of how many you think? You're talking about four black teachers.

PJ: How many?

DW: You're talking about four black teachers went to the city schools.

PJ: Four black teachers, four African American teachers went to, I think four or five and the others were spread out in other areas, city schools. But Rembert. He left and went to Hopkinsville, Kentucky, and he was there, head football coach down there at what was the name of the school, Rosenwald. No.

DW: Attex.

PJ: Attex and he was the coach down there. He went down there and lived. That was an area where you had a lot of leadership, lawyers, doctors and what not because you were member of a fraternity. We always met in that particular area, 43:00and we always had our prayers down in that particular area because of the easiness and also because of the services that were there. But Henderson could have done a much better job I think in integration even if it's just in sports it would've helped tremendously the kids.

DW: Explain what you mean.

PJ: Well, there was no effort made to get the kids started in the program. I think you went into the program ( ) most places where you had integration the coaches have already made a round to see that John Smith is going to come out for the team or what not. I don't think this happened as far as the city was concerned. But there was an emphasis made in almost all cases that one or both of the coaches or two of the coaches would be put on the staff as such to help 44:00with integration. Consequently before that we played sports, we had to play after the City High School team. If they're out Friday, we get to play on Friday. If they played on Friday, then we have to play on Saturday. You always took second best. I can remember once that Pete Rembert and I used to have to go down on Saturday morning after our ballgame to clean up the field. I just got tired and the fellow that was coaching was Don Shelton at that time. He lived up the street and Don and I was raised together. He used to be coach at the University of Louisville ( ) remember Don. So I asked Don, I said, "Don, do you have to clean up the football field?" He said, "No, Pierre, I don't have to clean the football field." I said, "Well, I wonder why we're doing ( )." "I don't know." So I just went down by myself, went down to ( ) to meet with 45:00him and to ask him, I said, "I'm just wondering why is it that Don Shelton and his football players don't have to clean up the stadium." I said, "Every time we play we've got to come down the next day on Saturday or Sunday or what not to clean up the field." "Well, that's not your business. I said, "Yes, it is my business because it messes up my days" or what not. ( ) got on the phone to the principal, Kirkwood. Said, "Jackson's down here." He didn't call me Pierre. He said, "Jackson is down here asking about the field, why they have to do it." He said, "That's the way I want it done" and what not. So but the peculiar thing happened. Two days later on a Monday or Tuesday he called Kirkwood and told him they don't have to clean the field anymore. So we didn't have to clean the field.

DW: What happened?

PJ: I don't know. Maybe he had a change of heart or something like that. But 46:00I guess I was hard headed or what not but I just didn't feel that we were being treated fair and equal and what not.

DW: Was it the coaching staff that was having to clean up the stadium and the bleachers.

PJ: Oh ( ) the students and what not had to go and clean up those things every Sunday. If you played on Saturday you have to go on Sunday morning or what not or ( )

DW: From the white game the night before.

PJ: If they played Friday night, ( ) the stuff would be down through there. But those kinds of things just were not fair and such.

DW: Well, so what happened? How did your teaching career at Douglass finally end, your teaching and coaching career?

PJ: Coaching career, it ended what did we, it ended just the time of integration.

DW: Explain how that happened.

PJ: I just, after I found out that there was going to be a change in school systems and what not and after I talked to Johnson and this, that--

DW: Superintendent.

PJ: I would not get a job that I wanted and enjoyed doing that I just told them at that particular meeting that I already had made reservations, had already talked to people--not necessarily reservations--but already made arrangements for a new job. That's when I started working for Human Rights Commission. We moved to, well, I moved to Franklin and worked up there.

DW: Was this the same year that Douglass closed? Did you leave Douglass when it closed?

PJ: Yeah. Yeah.

DW: The facility, as a school.

PJ: Yeah, that's right. That's the last night of graduation and everything else. I knew that I was going and what not.

DW: Let me clear something else up. A few minutes ago you said that a handful of teachers went to the City High School and a handful of black teachers from Douglass went to, got to teach at the City High School. Did the board and the administration arrange for you guys to have some kind of job even though it wasn't--

PJ: Not necessarily so.

DW: Did some lose jobs?

PJ: Oh yeah, some lost jobs.

DW: And what happened to them?

PJ: Most of them left and went some place else.

DW: So in your case you probably could've worked but you didn't get a job that you would've enjoyed.

PJ: No, enjoy, ( ) job I would've enjoyed.

DW: No coaching.

PJ: No, no coaching at all and Pete didn't even get coaching so he left. He left also. That's when he left and went to Hopkinsville. But Kirkwood and his wife and other people we talked about ( ) they had jobs there also at City High School.

DW: Why do you feel that you didn't get the opportunity to coach at the city team, City High School team or even assistant? Would you have taken an assistant coaching job?

PJ: Well, that's all you were going to get. That's what you were going to get.

DW: Were you assistant at Douglass or head coach?

PJ: Pete and I, he was head coach. I was assistant coach, but it was more of a family type thing. I'm not head coach and you're not head coach.

DW: I understand.

PJ: Because we, come to my house and bring fellows to his house and what not. We did it that particular way. But I don't know if it was the coaching staff 49:00because we knew all of them. In fact almost every game we played they were there watching us play. We had some good ball clubs. We had good teams, and we played good teams even like ( ) Illinois, Evansville Indiana, Paducah, Nashville, Tennessee, what's the other. A couple of other places we played. But we played good teams, and we were no slouch, and if you look on the list, it's about thirty-eight fellows on the squad. That means that everybody has to do their plus somebody else's. They had, they had anywhere from sixty, to seventy to eighty players on their squad. In fact I think our kids took pleasure and pride in being part of the sports program. Basketball, the same way. We were known because we had a good team and all. The finals when we were in the leagues, Kentucky High School leagues, we went all the way to the finals. 50:00We made it to the state a couple of times.

In fact let me tell you this story. We went to the tournament in Franklin, Kentucky, Kentucky State and we drew Lexington-Dunbar one of the powerhouse. Well, we had a powerhouse. We had a ball club, Don Shirley, Douglas Draughan, John Burris, Robert Smith, and who was the other fellow we had. But we had a powerhouse. So we get up there. Dunbar ( ). We're going to whip you and so forth. So we didn't know this until after the, so we'd already, Louisville-Central came here, and they beat us two points in our gym. So they knew that we had a good ball club. So when we were there in the dormitories--as 51:00I said I didn't know it and Pete didn't know it--John Shirley went out that night and knocked on every Dunbar player's door and come to the door. He said, "I'm the wild man. I'm going to score thirty-two points against you tomorrow. We're going to whip you." "Man, you're crazy. You're crazy." John went to all the doors. The first play of the game Douglas Draughan tipped the ball up to John Francis. John Shirley came by and got it and went up and dunked it, and that's before dunking was dunking. The whole stadium, the whole gym stood up, wow. John Shirley made thirty-two plus points. We beat Dunbar that day. But 52:00that just shows you what the kids want to do that they can do out there playing. We lost the game against Central, and we didn't know it until it was over that the fellows went and broke rules after they beat Dunbar, and they were not good for just about a half of the ball game. John Shirley, I don't think he made fifteen or sixteen points. But if they had just abided by the rules, ( ) probably drinking and what not. But not enough for us to know about it. We went to check them in their beds and when we checked them into bed, they checked out after we got--. So they would've whipped Louisville because Louisville was scared.

DW: Louisville-Central.

PJ: Yeah, they were afraid of them. They were really afraid of them. John Shirley and John Burris, they would kill you and what not.

DW: Well, tell me a little bit about your experience on the Human Rights, the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights in Frankfort. What did you do there?

PJ: Being a member of the Human Rights whatever Gaylen ( ) assigned you to 53:00do, you were to do it. If there was an individual problem and in northern Kentucky or southern Kentucky or Henderson or what not, I came here a couple of times for little problems that they had here to talk to people, see what was happening and make suggestions to them.

DW: What kinds of problems?

PJ: Sometimes a matter of maybe an eating place or maybe it may be a problem of housing, and some places it was school areas, problems that you had. At that time things were beginning to because of Gaylen and his staff, they begin to get things to moving as the way that they should be able to move. Consequently a lot of problems you didn't see about what happened until something happened in this area because one of us going in that particular area and talking to the people that are involved there and they would be able to solve that. That helped tremendously. Louisville had some of the larger problems that you had. 54:00Lexington, I don't think they had any a lot of problems in that particular area. Henderson, we had our little problems basically because we were shut out of most of the individual things and after they got to the point where the things were opened up and the town to a degree, things just sort of slacked off. I think one of the fellows you must give a lot of credit to was ( ) Lackey who was the mayor of the town.

DW: Here in Henderson. When was he mayor?

PJ: During this particular time ( ). He was very instrumental in helping and he was really from Hoptown, and he worked with all groups and then he, if there was a problem, he would call in people, Pierre, Kirkwood, whoever else was involved? Come on down here and let's talk this thing out. That helped to smooth over a lot of things. There was not a lot of shooting and killing and 55:00tearing up or burning up of anything in this particular area. But there are people I'm sure right today they still are happy that things turned out the way they normally did.

DW: Was there any violence at all here?

PJ: Not that I know of.

DW: Or presence of organized opposition or Klan or anything like that.

PJ: You had some people here they had their old groups and what not. But none of it to the point where it became any problem of knocking out windows and shooting up or nothing like that. I think basically because of Lackey and then the Human Rights Commission here--that's where I got my start--the Human Rights Commission here in the city of Henderson. It helped to alleviate the problems. They brought in people that would be able to help and who had been through these things and tell you how not to do and what to do to keep things from occurring. So Henderson was lucky enough to get off without anything that was a, that was a problem, anybody had hurt or burned down their buildings or things like that. 56:00But it could've been a lot better. You had some of the people who were in a position of leadership on the other side would've loosened up a little bit more and allowed people a chance to help probably could've been more jobs. There probably could've been people who had the ability to do their jobs could've been hired in different places. We lost, we lost a tremendous amount of people. They went to other areas to live not necessarily because of that but because of the opportunities that were on the other side. So they would go to Saint Louis or Chicago, Denver, Colorado, Washington DC and--

DW: Did the black population dwindle through that period a bit?

PJ: ( ) it did. People left and went to places where things were better for them. But it could've been a lot better if people had really seen the problems 57:00that they had. That really, the problems you had, but you really couldn't see the problems. If I walked in for a job, ( ) applying, yeah, okay. We'll get in touch with you, but they didn't, never got in touch with you. ( ) hire somebody else for that particular spot. So if the integration of schools had occurred as it should have, if people would've been put in their positions where they should've been placed in positions, the teens would've probably been much better students as a whole, would've been much better. My youngest son, my youngest son, he didn't like school period. He always had to run through an alley to go to Alves Street School, and he always had to run to City High School, and he was one of those kind of fellows, he'd fight. A couple of times 58:00he had trouble with the teachers, and they, I had to come over to the school to talk to him about his ( ) himself, and then even in sports, if it couldn't be right, he didn't like it the way that he was doing it, he said forget it. He was one that didn't play sports. But I think the input would've been much greater the kids into the sports programs. It would've developed a lot earlier if there had been assistance from us this whole because when you have thirty-five or forty kids, fifty kids, and we had every kid out of school to play sports. Every kid in school played something. On Saturday when we had our recreation program, we'd kids who were going to be, people would come down to 59:00teach them ballet and dancing, tap dancing and ( ) plays, and they'd do those little kind of things. Keep them active and keep them sharp. Keep them sharper. But a lot of this disappeared when I left the recreation program. It always tickled me, but the fellow I think was Jim Williams, the Kennedy Recreation Center up there. So he called me down and of course I was running the swimming pool, and he was a neighbor of mine down on Green Street, and he said, "Pierre, we're thinking about building a recreation center. What do you suggest?" I said, "Well ( ) where it is located now. I said that will be nice to--". He said well, we're going to call you down and let you give us some ideas of what to do. The swimming pool was already down at the bottom of the hill. So I waited and I waited, and I'm still waiting to be called in to give 60:00them some ideas to what should be put in the building. So they built what they wanted up there. It's used very well, very well. They have a gymnasium. That's the largest area. They have two smaller building, rooms. They have a stage. Something going on in the gym. That's it. You don't have enough area to take care of. I think they have six or eight or ten computers up there. Teach my son that had his church up there for a while. But it needs to be enlarged because it is the center. There's no swimming pool in the particular area where they had the swimming pool down in there. It was well used. In fact we used it football after the swimming season. That's where we dressed and that's where we, the kids swam and that's where ( ). Some kind of way they 61:00said there was a crack in the bottom and then they ( ). They don't have one. So Henderson has one public pool and a number of private pools. Really the kids I don't know whether they take part of it or the kids are involved in it, in the swimming program as such. But that's a valuable part of any city ( ) I guess you learned to swim in a pool too didn't you. So that's, they don't have that as such now. But everything in the city now is moving away from the neighborhood. Everything is out from the border, all the fields and everything else. The teams as a whole are lily white. Most of them, they have one African American on the team--

DW: In the sports here you're talking.

PJ: I'm talking about in the recreation program.

DW: Okay. Recreation program.

PJ: Sports I mean, the Afro American kids they carry, most of them carry the 62:00program. They do extremely good job here, but that could be much more involvement in this program. A lot of kids, you and I being coaches, we could probably go out on the corner and pick up enough players to go whip any team in the neighborhood ( ). But I guess it's going to be as it is. There's no, there's been no ideas or plans to hire any Afro American coaches. I don't think the coaches, they don't have seven or eight African American coach in the City High School program. I mean, in the County High School program.

DW: Has there been?

PJ: I don't think they were officially hired. I think they were asked to come to make the presence as such. I think the fellow who was a psychologist, he's always he's Afro American. He's always on the sideline, ( ) people think he's a member of the coaching staff. But there could be room for Afro American in 63:00basketball, and the basketball teams are predominantly, their stars and what not are Afro American. The kid, Dixon, no, ( ), but he's going, he's going to Purdue University this year and has tremendous grade point average. Probably he would've been a lot better off if he'd had a little help playing the games and such.

DW: Well, Mr. Jackson, anything else you want to say? That pretty much wraps up my questions.

PJ: I don't know. Henderson as a whole, we're hurting here because we don't have a lot of business people, people that are active. I think most people are sort of sensitized with what they have instead of looking forward to what they could have. In the areas of, there needs to be more recreational facilities for 64:00the kids here, and there needs to be more involvement as far as the law is concerned. I don't know whether they have one or two African American policemen. We are getting-- 12

2002OH08.15 - Jackson