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´╗┐DAVID WOLFORD: This is David Wolford, and it is the 16th of August 2002. I'm in Henderson, Kentucky with Mr. Donald Banks. Mr. Banks, would you just kind of introduce yourself? Tell us when you were born, where you are from, a little bit about your background.

DONALD BANKS: I am Donald Banks, and I was born here in Henderson, Kentucky. Born March the 5th, 1947. I always had a keen interest in history and especially genealogy, and I went to school at Henderson City High. I went to trade school and wound up as an industrial electrician. Basically I have a few hobbies that I like, mostly computers, dealing with computers and history and 1:00that's about it.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Where did you attend school as a young child?

DAVID BANKS: I went to elementary school at Alves Street School, attended it up until sixth grade. Left there and attended Barrett Junior High, which was integrated at that time. Up until my sixth grade it was all segregated schools. From there I went to City High and then after City High I went to trade school.

DAVID WOLFFORD: What year did you graduate from Henderson City High School?

DAVID BANKS: I went there, 1965.

DAVID WOLFFORD: That's when you graduated, class of '65.

DAVID BANKS: Class of '65.

DAVID WOLFFORD: All right. Let's talk a little bit about the Alvey Street School. I think I'm pronouncing that right.

DAVID BANKS: Alves.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Alves. Okay. That's A-L-V-E-S.

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DAVID BANKS: Um hmm.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Yeah, just could you be, kind of describe the building itself maybe?

DAVID BANKS: The building was sort of like a three-story building. It wasn't anything fancy. It was pretty good-sized building, and it went from first grade through the sixth grade. Later they added on a seventh grade and an eighth grade, but when I went there, it was the first through the sixth grade. I had a real good time. I mean, that's all I knew school there, and they had a playground for young kids ( ), and we used to get out and wrestle and play and a lot of fond memories there at that place.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Did, were there additional black schools, black elementary schools in the city system at the time?

DAVID BANKS: Not at that time. Now there was, years ago there used to be other 3:00black schools, training schools, what they called training schools, and up around the north end of Henderson there was a black school, but this is long time before my time. By the time I started going to school all these schools were dissolved. Basically when I started going to school, it was only Alves Street and Douglass. That's as far as blacks go.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Do any of these school buildings still exist today?

DAVID BANKS: Not today. Douglass was the last school tore down. They tore Alves Street down. I'm not going to try to say what year they tore that down, but it was the first one to be tore down, and then Douglass was tore down in the '60s. In its place right now they have a, what is a place for men, homeless 4:00men. They just built a new building on that spot. That was a sad loss, losing that building. It's a historical type building.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Was there any dispute in town about that building coming down?

DAVID BANKS: It was. It was. A lot of people voiced opposition for that building coming down. The only thing saved about that building now is that the, there's a community center, John F. Kennedy Community Center. Douglass used to have, in concrete, its name up over the door. They saved it and then at the John F. Kennedy Center they encased it in brick and saved that portion of that school. I myself know where the bricks that was bought, the guy used it to build a brick fence. So I know those bricks came from Douglass.

DAVID WOLFFORD: I see. Let's talk a little bit more about the Alves Street School. What kind of quality was the, what kind of condition was the building 5:00in. Would you call that a quality school for its time?

DAVID BANKS: Well, compared to, well let's say Central School because both of those schools are just about the same age. But the money wasn't put into Alves Street School the way it was being put into Central. They received old books. When Central school was done with their books and instead of discarding them or throwing them away, Alves Street got them. So we always dealt with used books, book that were behind. Well, the school wasn't run down. It was a very sound building, but everything was secondhand.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Did you know that at the time as a child? Were you aware of that?

DAVID BANKS: Not until I got to the age that I could understand what was going on.

6:00

DAVID WOLFFORD: When do you think that happened?

DAVID BANKS: That was on the later years. Probably when I got to junior high or something I could look back and I could tell what went on ( ) Douglass, I could tell what they got was secondhand books and shop equipment and stuff like that, machines was all secondhand.

DAVID WOLFFORD: When that became a reality for you, how did you feel about that the fact that--?

DAVID BANKS: Well, it didn't make me angry because those people took what they had and done the best that they could do with it. By the time, I never did go to Douglass, but I lived across the street from Douglass all my life just about. I've seen that they had band and football, and that's all I knew. But as you 7:00got older, you began to realize the difference between what this school had and this school had because I have an opportunity to play in Douglass and go through Douglass but never had the opportunity to go to school there. But I went to school at Barrett. So I could tell, see the difference what Barrett had or what City had and what Douglass had. See a lot of difference.

DAVID WOLFFORD: How about your teachers? Do you remember your teachers at Alves Street?

DAVID BANKS: I remember every one of them. Every one of them.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Why is that?

DAVID BANKS: I got a lot, they were good teachers. They took the time to teach you. Each one of them knew your parents personally. They knew them by name. It wasn't something that they would just associate with it. If I done something in school that day, then they had punishment for it. They gave you a whipping back in them days, which is illegal now. They give you one there and then tell 8:00your parents and you got one when you got home. There wasn't no, not like today. Today where parents are ( ) the teacher whether or not they were right or wrong in punishing them. If that teacher was punishing you, then as far as they were concerned you were due another one.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Right. Right. Were the teachers there, did they hold degrees at this time? This is in the late '50s, early '60s we're talking about.

DAVID BANKS: Every one of those teachers been to college, had been to college. Most of them had been to Kentucky State. That's where they obtained their degrees.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Were the teachers from Henderson originally and had come back or did some of them come in from out of town?

DAVID BANKS: Annette C. Brown was from Henderson and always had been from Henderson and come from a family that was all educated people and made sure, 9:00their dad made sure that the whole family was educated. If you read this book, this one here, Annals and Scandals it talks about Annette C. Brown and her father and her grandfather how they were educated type people. You may have, I don't know how many movies you watched, but there's an actor, I can't recall his name now, but he was Annette C. Brown's nephew, still acting today. I'll call his name here in a minute. I shouldn't have brought that up until I actually had his name.

DAVID WOLFFORD: That's okay.

DAVID BANKS: I'll grasp it here in a minute. But all those people were very educated type people. Annette C. Brown and you had the Earleys, the Earley sisters. They all graduated from there. My first grade teacher, Miss Hodges, 10:00and you had another first grade teacher, Miss ( ). The second grade teacher was another Earley sister. Third teacher was Eldress, and then you moved on up there to the fourth grade level, and then you had Miss oh shoot. What in the world was that lady called? They always said she was so mean, but she wasn't. Miss Wallace was her name. She was in the fourth grade. Miss Hill taught the fifth and so on. ( ) Miss Annette Brown taught the sixth. The other Earley sister taught the sixth. That wrapped up Alves Street School teachers. Principal Mr. Houston. We always called him Mr. Houston. I never could 11:00remember that man's first name. So we always called him Mr. Houston. He was principal there. I remember those people. You don't forget them because they made a mark in your life. Then you went on over to the high school. I knew all the teachers just about al the teachers at Douglass, even though I had not attended Douglass because I lived right across the street from there. It was a small town. Everybody knows everything.

DAVID WOLFFORD: You're speaking quite a bit about Miss Annette Brown.

DAVID BANKS: I was born in her house.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Oh is that right.

DAVID BANKS: That's right.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Well, does she have quite a reputation here in town?

DAVID BANKS: Yes, she has. She was a ( ) that lady had writing that appeared in schoolbooks, but she never did protect her writing. People used it. Gleaner 12:00Journal, she wrote for them for years and years and years. They thought quite a bit about her. She was an avid writer, and she was a type of individual that all she, nature stuff. She liked nature stuff. She could name this weed, that weed and she enjoyed teaching children about it. I can remember being in her classroom, and one of the things that she really liked to do is oh about once every two or three weeks, she'd take her whole class outside, just outside the building and teach them about the different plants and stuff. Then later on in the year she wrote about nature stuff with The Gleaner for years and years. You can go down here to the library and pick up the paper. I'll say anywhere back 13:00in '80s and on back, and you'll see her picture and her writings. There was a book published once, oh that book may have been thirty-five, forty pages, ( ) portrait, stuff she wrote. They acknowledged that it was her writing, but they didn't have to give her a dime for it.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Right. When you were attending Alves Street School, did you really, it sounds like you learned later what kind of materials the white schools had compared to the black schools. But did you know what the white, the inside of a white school looked like?

DAVID BANKS: Not until I went to Barrett.

DAVID WOLFFORD: This is Barrett Junior High.

DAVID BANKS: Barrett Junior High. See by the time I, I never did attend the old Barrett. I attended the, they had torn the old Barrett down and built a new 14:00Barrett, and I was one of the first students that went through that school.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Well, explain for me if you can when they built the new Barrett Junior High, was there an intention of integrating it once it was built? Or did it just kind of happen at that point? Was there any connection there?

DAVID BANKS: By that time all the schools Henderson Central had been integrated for years by that time. So had City High. But there was always that gap in the oh, I'll say in the seventh, eighth grade. That's as far as they went. It's just a period that blacks pretty much stayed over there. Once they got that level, kids got a little, they usually stayed right in there, and then they went to high school from Alves Street or something like that. As far as attending 15:00the old Barrett, I don't remember any blacks attending after they built the new one then they started moving in there.

DAVID WOLFFORD: What was it like when you went into Barrett Junior High? This is your first experience. Do you remember your first day at an integrated school?

DAVID BANKS: Yes.

DAVID WOLFFORD: What was that day like?

DAVID BANKS: Well, believe it or not, it was just like normal going to school. You've got, people around here it wasn't like Sturgis, Kentucky. Now Sturgis is only about forty miles. You may have read about Sturges Kentucky. That made national news. Sturgis was about half the size of Henderson. When they went to integrate, I believe they brought out state police, national guards and everything else. Henderson wasn't like that. It was more of a, it was smooth. Once a bill was passed, those who was brave enough to enter a predominantly 16:00white school went. Wasn't no polices standing, no guard, nothing. They just went. That was about it.

DAVID WOLFFORD: It sounds like that first day was very smooth for you, but did you anticipate that before that day was over? Did you, or maybe before you actually got there.

DAVID BANKS: Well, see by the time I got there, guys like Charles Thomas and then had already had been to Central was ( ), they had gotten there too. So for me it just being around Charles and Skip, not like ( ) we always talking and stuff you know, see how they handled it. Wasn't no problem with me.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Were they, did they already have connections with white kids? Were they already kind of friendly with some white kids?

DAVID BANKS: Well, yeah. See they never did go to black schools.

DAVID WOLFFORD: At all.

DAVID BANKS: Only about a couple of years.

DAVID WOLFFORD: I see.

DAVID BANKS: Yeah.

DAVID WOLFFORD: So that helped. They were kind of a bridge for you, I guess.

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DAVID BANKS: Right. See they was one of, well, you showed me the plate with 1956, but the only thing I can remember is back there I was thinking around, as far as I can remember, it was Charles and them heading, going to. I can remember that just as well because it was a big deal about sending them to the school.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Well, what did, did Charles your friends and William Porter--

DAVID BANKS: Porter.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Oh yeah. Do you remember their first experiences? Did they ever speak of any particular details of attending the new white school when--?

DAVID BANKS: No, because children are a lot different from adults. They don't know no better when you put them in an environment with other children. They 18:00don't know nothing about being discriminated against unless. That's taught. That's not something that inherited, just because you're one race and another race you inherit that, inherit, well, being a bigot or something. That's something that's taught. You can take several kids and put them in this room today, and if you don't teach them anything about one's different from the other, they'll play together. This is basically the way Charles and them was. Of course you had kids who knows the difference, but they fit right on in there and played ( ) playing football and everything else at that school and blended right on in. Never was nothing that would, where the parents were standing outside with sticks and all, and them police out there because something had 19:00happened or some adult had come there or something. That never did happen here. But it did in Sturgis.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Did you, were you involved in extracurricular activities, sports or music or anything like that?

DAVID BANKS: Well, I played football, ran track, stuff when I was coming up. Stuff like that.

DAVID WOLFFORD: How do you, do you think that had any, for example when you were at Barrett Junior High or City High, do you think that had any kind of impact on the relationship between black and white students?

DAVID BANKS: Well, we played together back then. We had friends, white friends and black friends had white friends and white friends had black friends back then. You've got to, what I'm trying to say about Henderson is it's an unusual place. Other towns had blacks would live on this side of town. Whites would, 20:00but blacks and whites always lived all over Henderson, I mean, back during, years back. It wasn't something that happened here in the later years. So we had blacks lived around on Main Street on the north end, the east end, the south end. Whereas other towns, blacks would maybe be concentrated in one general area of a city. So we was already set in the environment where we're always did mingle with one other and play with one other. But we never did go to movies with one another and stuff like that, see. That was out. Restaurants and stuff like that.

DAVID WOLFFORD: So even though the town wasn't segregated geographically it sounds like or not severely segregated, but there was still some segregation in 21:00the public accommodations in town.

DAVID BANKS: There definitely was in public accommodations. Your five and dime stores, your movies, just stuff you'd take for granted today was segregated.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Where did blacks shop in town?

DAVID BANKS: Oh they went to the five and dime, but you shopped there, but you didn't belly up and get a Coke there or something like that. You went to the local grocery ,stores and they didn't mind taking your money, but as far as socializing and sitting down and having a meal and something like that, no. No.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Was not an option here.

DAVID BANKS: That wasn't an option here. Not until and it didn't take too much to break that up either. A few sit ins at Ken's Corner and places like that. It was over. ( )

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DAVID WOLFFORD: Was there a black business district here in town?

DAVID BANKS: There was a number of business districts here. Well, downtown here, in fact in my book, I list several businesses that were here, doctors and dentists and barbershops, grocery stores, drugstores and stuff like that was here at that time.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Let's talk a little bit about your high school days. You graduated from Henderson City High School, and you weren't one of the very first to integrate it, but it was still fairly early in the era. How did teachers receive, how do you either for yourself or maybe perhaps, maybe your older friends, how do you think the white teachers at the Henderson High School received the black kids?

DAVID BANKS: Let me see. Well, they wasn't all that overenthused about having 23:00black kids there. But it was, even then it was subtle stuff. You could tell, you had some teachers there that I remember were very good teachers, and you had some of them there, you know how they felt about you. I don't recall their names.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Sure. I kind of understand what you're saying, but how did you know how they felt about you?

DAVID BANKS: Just back then they didn't, they wasn't sneaky about it. They'll pretty much let you know in their own way. Now they'll be a little more subtle about things. Back then they could do things and get away with it. That was then.

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DAVID WOLFFORD: Do you think on the whole the faculty welcomed the idea of integrating here in Henderson?

DAVID BANKS: I would say if you based Henderson against other cities, I'm going to say right here in this general area, now I'm talking about Sturgis for instance. Louisville had a lot more trouble in desegregating their school system than we had. They had a lot more rougher time. In fact I think it was up there around 19--, was it around 1956 when Martin Luther King went there and marched on Louisville there. The only time he's going to get there is if 25:00something's drawed his attention to get there. Louisville was a little bit rougher. Henderson was more smoother. I mean they're more, when the law was passed, they seemed to went on and complied with it. Now they didn't go out and advertise for blacks to go to that school, and they didn't encourage you to go to the school, but the doors was open if you wanted to come.

DAVID WOLFFORD: So there was a choice for blacks. You could continue to attend the previously all-black school, which remained black I'm guessing. Did any black school like Alves or Douglass, did they ever take in any whites in those buildings?

DAVID BANKS: No, those schools never did have white in it. As long as Douglass and Alves Street existed they didn't go out and encourage blacks to leave that school, leave Alves Street. In fact Alves Street would still probably be there 26:00a lot longer and Douglass would've stood there a lot longer if the numbers hadn't declined so rapidly in that school. It had gotten down to it was just very few people even going to either one of them. So economically it was costing too much to operate the school. So they just shut them down.

DAVID WOLFFORD: That's when the true, that's when the larger numbers of integrated students came to be here.

DAVID BANKS: Right because they didn't have any other choice. At that time it wasn't but two high schools. It was County High and City High. You had Seventh Street, and you had on elementary school, you had Central, Seventh Street, and those were the two main elementary schools. So you either went there or when 27:00that school shut down, they all divided up. Those on the north end went to Seventh Street. Used to those on the north end walked from out there to Alves Street School. It didn't matter how cold it was or how, whether it was raining or what. They didn't have no buses go out there.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Right. I've got a question for you. Why did you, you had the option as a child to attend Central or Seventh Street, which wasn't too far from your home. Right. But you went ahead and still attended the Alves Street School. Now why did that happen?

DAVID BANKS: That's got a lot to do with your parents.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Sure.

DAVID BANKS: See I couldn't make that decision. Now I had friends that were only, the only thing I know I had Charles and then Will Porter and all. They were my buddies and like that's who I grew up with and played with. I would go over there, but now Mom and Dad had a different story about whether or not. They were still hesitant about whether or not to go over there.

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DAVID WOLFFORD: Why do you think they were hesitant about sending you to the white school?

DAVID BANKS: Well, they grew up in a different time and a different era. They were treated a lot different than what I was treated, the same as I was treated a lot different than what my children were treated. My children had no idea about segregated systems or being discriminated--you can set my boy down here now and I mean out right discriminate against him, and he don't have no idea what you just done to him because he didn't grow up in that time. You could probably call him names I wouldn't even take because of that old rap music got all the names in it that man, those were fighting words when I was coming up.

29:00

DAVID WOLFFORD: Sure.

DAVID BANKS: Now they listen to it and it just a different in time. It was a different in time for my mother and my father as it was for me. It was strictly, my father was born in 1922. My mother was born in '21. So they came up during the time when it wasn't uncommon to hear about hangings. It wasn't uncommon if you downtown somewhere and got out of line, or at least you, they thought you got out of line, and the police, they'd beat the tar out of you and throw you in jail and you were there. If he killed you, you were just dead. That don't happen today without an investigation. They can get away with it back then in the '20s and the '30s. The '30s was notorious years, but I didn't 30:00grow up during that time. I grew up in a time where I guess you might say that I seen both ends of it. I've seen total segregation, and I've seen the times when it was over with, when I was allowed to go to schools; I was allowed to go to movies. I was allowed to go anywhere I wanted to, but I grew up also at a time that I wasn't allowed to. So I seen both. Now my son and my daughters never seen that time. They have no, they probably couldn't tell you the history of Martin Luther King you know or what he done. I asked them today, what did Martin? They might tell it a little bit because of Black History Week, but to 31:00really know what he stood for, they're probably not even interested.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Why do you think that is?

DAVID BANKS: Just the way they grew up. They grew up in a time, my son didn't grow up in a time where he couldn't go, now when I grew up and you couldn't go over here on the east end of town. You knew how far to go, or else you're going to get bricked or rocked. Well, the same token when the white kids, they knew how far they could go on this end of the town see. You always had that dividing line, and I grew up during that time. But they never did. My kids don't know nothing about that kind of stuff. It's nothing that we didn't teach them either, that kind of stuff. As far as I, we tried to teach them ( ). You 32:00can't go through life and in this world and living in your own little sector. You've got to, you're going to have to live amongst a diversified race of people if you're going to get along in this world.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Mr. Banks, do you feel and this is a retrospective opinion I'm sure, but do you think that attending school in an integrated setting benefited your education?

DAVID BANKS: Yes. Being in an integrated setting at work, let's take for instance at work. You can point people out that growed up in towns that wasn't 33:00around an integrated area. In fact we had a couple, three, four years ago we had a lot of trouble with the South Junior High School system, fights between blacks and whites.

DAVID WOLFFORD: This was how long ago.

DAVID BANKS: A few years ago, three or four or five years ago. They had a lot of trouble with fights going around. I talked to the superintendent out there one time, and I said, "You know what the problem is out there at South Junior High. See, at that school right there you started solving a lot of students that come from rural areas. They always had schools in rural areas, and they never was around an integrated sector of black kids or anything. When they hit 34:00these schools, some feel they can say what they want to say like them out there at county high. The next thing you know these kids up here in town, there's a fight right there." I told him, I said, "What you need to do is before these kids come to these schools, you need to set them down. I don't know how to put this but teach them about an integrated, what they're going to be going through that's going to be totally different from the all white school that they just come from. You're going to be getting into sections where you say something to them and the next thing you know it's all, it's a fight. You say the wrong thing." They seem to get a grasp on it, but there for a while they was having a lot of trouble over there with fights. It was always dealing with people from 35:00rural areas into it with kids that lived up around in here most of the time.

DAVID WOLFFORD: You attribute that with growing up in a strictly white community, not having any interaction with other kids that might be black.

DAVID BANKS: Right. Uh huh. I'll tell you, you just cannot operate anywhere being sheltered. If you've been sheltered from certain things all your life, then all of a sudden thrown into a mix with it, you can't cope. Something's going to happen if you don't adjust. Those city kids, these little kids that live in town are totally different from kids coming up out of the county. See. They think different. They play different. They act different. Finally I 36:00guess they've got a grasp on it. But there for a while they had a little, it was a little rugged over there for a while.

DAVID WOLFFORD: What ever happened to Alves Street School?

DAVID BANKS: They finally tore that school down. Over there now they put houses on the lot. I got a picture of Alves Street School. I can stand here and see it right now what it looked like ( ).

DAVID WOLFFORD: Do you know when that, when that, do you know when it ceased to operate and do you know when it was torn down?

DAVID BANKS: Alves Street School, I cannot say when it ceased to operate. It was at least, I'd say it was two or three years before Douglass closed down that Alves ceased to operate then.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Probably early '60s would you say?

DAVID BANKS: Douglass closed down in '65. That was the last year. I'll say in 37:00the early '60s Alves Street School ceased to, and it stood there for a long time until the kids I guess started you know with vacant building they started breaking out windows and the city decided that they would tear it down.

DAVID WOLFFORD: When it closed before it was torn down was there any problem in the community? Did some people want to hang on to that building or, did they want to hang onto it as a school I should say?

DAVID BANKS: No. No. No. They didn't want to hang on. They didn't have as much opposition about Alves Street School as they did Douglass.

DAVID WOLFFORD: About getting rid of it you mean.

DAVID BANKS: About getting rid of Douglass.

DAVID WOLFFORD: This is the black community you're speaking of.

DAVID BANKS: Yeah, they spoke out more about Douglass than they did Alves Street School.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Was there a dispute about Douglass closing then?

DAVID BANKS: Well, you see there's a lot of people still wanted to keep Douglass open. The older people, ( ) the younger people a big difference. 38:00They want to get where the action's at. Where football and bigger schools, but you still had those old traditions that people want to hang on to. They knew the time had come for it, but it's like anything else, you have something for so long you just don't want to part from it. That's the way Douglass was. It was just part of the community and had been that way for years and years. Douglass in fact, let me tell you something about Alves Street School was the first--. I don't remember this, but I read history on how Douglass come about. The first Douglass High School was sitting on the corner of Alvasia and what they call Martin Luther King now. At that time it was Dixon Street. There was an old 39:00homeplace of Miss Forte Glass and her family. They were pretty well off people. They had a house looked like a mansion back during that time, and when they moved out of that and sold that house, that became Douglass' first high school. Well, they owned the land also down on the corner of Alvasia and Clay Street, which is where they built the new Douglass High School that they sold that land and they built the new Douglass right there. So that's how Douglass come about.

DAVID WOLFFORD: I see.

DAVID BANKS: And they named it after Douglass--.

DAVID WOLFFORD: I think you've already answered this question, but I want to give you an opportunity to clear it up. How would you describe race relations in Henderson over your lifetime up until now?

DAVID BANKS: Well, you still, as far as the young kids right now, there's 40:00probably pretty good, but now you've still got them old heads here. They won't come out there and do something just blatantly, but they'll always do something subtle, let you know well, we'll put you in your place. You always got that, you can see it in the media. You can see it even in the papers by the way they cover stuff. Always going to cover something negative, and they won't put it the same when something's done positive. You see that kind of stuff. Henderson is a town that 17,000 population, it's a small town. But it only has about 41:002,000 blacks lives in Henderson, see. As far as how many voted by our, we've got the politicians ( )--

DAVID WOLFFORD: Have any blacks served on the city commission here or the county board?

DAVID BANKS: Yes. We have city commissioners.

DAVID WOLFFORD: All right.

DAVID BANKS: This is not, what you'll find here is subtle stuff. It's not the blatant stuff. It's the little subtle, right, let you know in no uncertain terms unless you're plain dumb.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Would you recall this small issue wouldn't you? The subtle things you're talking about are probably not overwhelmingly frequent, right.

42:00

DAVID BANKS: Not.

DAVID WOLFFORD: Okay. Well, I thank you Mr. Banks. I appreciate it.