Oral History Interview with Clara Willis Flowers

DAVID WOLFFORD: My name is David Wolfford, and I'm here with Clara Willis Flowers in Columbia, Kentucky. It is the 8th of August, 2002. This is part of the school desegregation project. Ms. Flowers, would you just kind of introduce yourself and tell us when you were born and where you are from?

CLARA FLOWERS: I'm Clara Lee Willis Flowers. I was born in Adair County, Kentucky, Columbia. I live at 800 Lancaster Drive now. So--

DW: All right. Could you tell us a little bit about attending school in Columbia when you were a child? What was school like and where did you attend school?

CF: I attended the old school that was named, known as Jackman High School, and 1:00it was about a four or five-room building. So it had, there was four rooms, two on the front side and two on the backside. The first one as you come in the door was the elementary, first through fifth grade, I think, and then from the other room was the six, seven and eighth grade. And on the opposite side there was a high school side. They had the freshman, juniors, sophomores and seniors. It was one teacher to each room at that time. We had an elementary had one from, had a teacher from the first five grades, and then you had a teacher for 2:00the next and then two high school, two high school teachers and a principal. Sometime I mean we was all crowded in the--. First through the fifth grade they was all crowded in the one room, one little room there. Of course the other, the sixth, seventh and eighth grade, I think they was in a room by themselves. Some was on, maybe it wouldn't be that many students in a class, but you had different sections of the room where you were divided off at. And of course we had recess. We didn't have any lunchrooms, had outside toilets, no running water, had a well outside and see what else.

DW: You said there was a principal?

CF: Yeah. Do you remember the principal's name? Who was that--what was it ( )? William Traylor?

(): Traylor.

CF: William Traylor and then--

(): Before him was Ruby Smith, wasn't it?

CF: Ruby Smith. Before her, okay, we had one that was some little guy from down south. What was his name?

(): ( ) years. I don't remember Ruby Smith and Traylor.

CF: Or his wife, she used to give music lessons. What was his name?

(): The only music teacher I remember was Miss ( )--

CF: No, this was a ( ). Oh mercy.

DW: Well, what are some other teachers you do remember or what are some things 4:00you remember about teachers there at Jackman?

CF: I remember there was a teacher--what was her name--Betty Williams. I thought she was a mean teacher. My first grade teacher, I never will forget that. Then there was Mrs. Sproulls. A Ms. Smith. Ms. Crowe. Well, we had two Mrs. Smiths. Both of them name was Ruby. One was--

(): One was principal and one was home ec teacher.

CF: Yeah. Then there was Tandy who later became a Beaumont. Then my uncle, Robert Ewing, and there was a Mrs. Moore, a Ms. Moore and who else.

(): The only ones I can remember are Mr. Ewing, Ms. Smith, the two Ms. Smiths and Ms. Brown.

CF: Yeah, Ms. Brown.

DW: Did Mr. Bomer teacher, there Cal Bomer?

CF: No. He never did teach over there.

DW: Where did he teach, Montpelier?

CF: Montpelier, yes. Then later on after they integrated I think he did substitute.

(): No, he taught.

CF: He taught, oh. He taught. There was a teacher--Samuels. I think a Samuels. He was, I think, maybe when I first started school, he was there, a Professor Samuels.

DW: How would you describe these teachers over all? What would you, what was 6:00your education like you think at Jackman in terms of quality?

CF: Well, then, back then I thought it was excellent because I mean that's the only school that I knew. And since it was a school here, right here in the community that was the, that was the only school around here in the surrounding counties really, well high school for the blacks to attend because they came from different areas. They came from Metcalfe County, Monroe County, and Russell County, and I think a few came from Green County to go to attend high school here.

DW: It was the only black high school in the area.

CF: In this area at that time.

(): ( )

CF: Well, Taylor County, yeah. Taylor County might, yeah, they had one. But--

(): But theirs closed up ( )

CF: Yeah--

DW: But certainly people, blacks from other counties came to Jackman.

CF: Came to Jackman.

DW: And other students

CF: The students came and they stayed in people's homes, and I reckon the other counties paid for the students to come and get their education.

DW: Did it have a pretty good reputation then in the area for a school?

CF: Yeah. That was, just like the church. Back then the churches and the school were in cooperated together. Whatever went on at school or whatever went on at church, I mean you know it was in cooperating. The teachers and the preachers and everybody stayed in contact with the children. They knew what was going on so if you had something at the church, I mean the school kids was involved. You always went to church because I know they used to have what they call chapel. It was on, was that on Wednesday or Tuesday. Wednesday but every 8:00day on Wednesday we'd always have, some ( ) come in and have devotion service.

DW: This was at the school though, right.

CF: That was at the school.

DW: That wouldn't go over today, would it?

CF: Nope. Not ( )

(): ( )

CF: Mr. Ross. Reverend Ross.

(): Ross.

CF: He used to come all the time. But I mean just like I say if it would, the entertainment would be maybe the teachers would get together and entertain. They would have entertainment. They would have socials. They put on plays or whatever. I mean just something for the community to get together and maybe be a fundraiser, and on a Friday nights or sometime they would have a little social, what they would call a sock social. They had a ball team. Of course they had, now before they integrated, before the school burned down now, they 9:00could go over there and play in the white gym. They could play ball if they had a game. As far as going to school or using their facilities, no. They could do that. So I guess pretty much, we got a pretty good education considering the time and everything like that. Of course it's been several that has left here, graduated from the school and went on to college, and they have gotten degrees in other fields.

DW: Now you attended Jackman and you attended school in Columbia before there was ever an integration. Your schooling finished before that happened. When you were a student, and let's talk about high school age, did you ever have a desire to go to school at a white building?

CF: Never ( ) ever crossed my mind because I guess it was--how 10:00are you going to say. It was just a natural thing to do that. I went to this school because it was a black school. I stayed in this neighborhood, and the white kids, they stayed in their. Never did think about going across another, say crossing the lines to go. It never did occur to, it didn't occur to me because I guess I knew it was--

(): Impossible.

CF: Impossible or it couldn't happen or what.

DW: Right. It used to, you spoke earlier some times maybe blacks could go and play in the gym at the Adair school but not to attend school. So that sort of answers this next question. But do you think you or most people from your time really knew what the inside of a white school looked like? I mean, had their 11:00been times where you had gone in a school or people told you about what a white school looked like or how it appeared or how it was different from your own school?

CF: Yes. I think I had heard some talk about how theirs was much different than ours. Then of course I mean, I guess like a kid or any other child you wonder well, why can't we have that. Because I know they would talk about I think they had the running water. They had the water fountains. The inside plumbing and all that. But they kept on saying, one of these days you'll get it. You will have this. You will get it. But and of course, it never did happen as long as, before that school burned down in what '54, '53. Was it spring of fifty--

DW: Spring of '53 is what I read.

CF: Was it '53? I thought it was later than that.

(): '53, '54.

CF: Because I thought I came out in '53.

(): You could've come out in May ( )

CF: I think it burned in the spring of '54.

(): I don't know.

CF: I believe. I know it was in the springtime when it--

DW: The report said '53. The report that was in the book at your house, the--that's all I'm going by. Because it was spring of '53 is what they said.

CF: See we came out in, graduation was always in May. I think we always managed to get out of school in May. We went from--

(): We'd always have May Day.

CF: Yeah--

(): Before we came out.

CF: We went, we started what, we always started in September I think, yeah 13:00September, and we went from September to May. But anyway--

DW: It said that they'd always said some day you'll be in the newer schools, and then you started to say even after Jackman burned down--

CF: Yep, after Jackman burned down, then didn't have no place to go, and then when they were talking about the children needing to go to school have somewhere to go, then the only thing that was left was the white school. That's when--

(): ( ) was saying that they took the money to build it--

CF: They had an insurance on that school, on the building.

DW: On the Jackman building.

CF: Yes. And the superintendent got the money. Of course it came through I guess his office, came back to his office. So he took the money and spent it and I think that's when they built the gym out here on the old Adair County High 14:00School. So that left the black kids without a school. They didn't have no money to build one. Then I mean they done spent the money. So what were they going to do with them.

DW: Well, tell us who your father was?

CF: My father, his name was Earl Willis. He was raised by his auntie and uncle, and he grew up around here in Columbia until he got out of school. I think he finished I'm not certain. He did not graduate from high school. I don't recall how far his education was when he went to school, but he joined a 15:00CC camp, and he served in the CC camp for several years and then got out of that, and I don't know what he did in between then. But he became a truck driver for Scaggs Transfer, and he drove for Scaggs, their trucking company, for thirty-five plus years I'll say. Then he retired. Of course while he was still driving a truck, he was active in the NAACP. That's after the school burned and the children didn't have nowhere to go to school at. So they organized the NAACP and what's his name? James, James Crumlin, he came out and he helped them 16:00get organized and he was a lawyer.

DW: How long did it take for a chapter to really be, the NAACP chapter to really be on the ground here at Columbia, to actually get membership and get the movement rolling?

CF: I don't think it took very long because I think everybody was ready for it. They was ready for a change, and if going, they said, if going through the court system fighting something, that was the only way to go, then everybody was ready for it because I think they had people from Taylor County, Green County, and all the surrounding counties. Everybody came to join it because they was all, they was all in the same situation as they were here in Adair County. So they had a pretty large membership here at one time, chapter. I don't know 17:00exactly how many members. I know they had to have so many to have, what was it to get a charter or a chapter or something. So but anyway, they got one. It stayed active for several years because I know--

(): ( )

CF: Yeah, about two or three years ago it just died.

DW: When you say the people were ready and ready to be integrated, I think you mean the black community was ready.

CF: The black community was.

DW: Do you think the fact that Jackman is burned down had something to do with that or do you think that they were, there was that much readiness to be integrated anyway?

CF: Well, I think Jackman burning down had a lot to do with it because I don't know. But I believe if that school hadn't burned down, they would've probably 18:00still been there for years to come until something else would've happened or something. Because I don't think some of the people, there were pros and cons. Some wanted the integration and some didn't.

DW: Black and white.

CF: Black and white. Yeah, the whites didn't.

DW: Did some blacks not want integration too?

CF: Some blacks, they did not want the NAACP.

DW: Well, why not?

CF: Well, some of them just wouldn't join them. They said they just, it didn't want to join.

DW: Why do you think they didn't want to join?

CF: I don't know. Maybe because they didn't understand it what it was all about. So I mean I don't--but I mean there was more that joined than it was that didn't.

DW: Okay.

CF: It's still went on.

DW: Do you remember Mr. Crumlin coming down here?

CF: Yes, I remember.

DW: I'm scheduled to talk with him in a couple weeks. He still lives in Louisville so--

CF: Yeah, I remember he used to come. And whenever they would come if they had an issue or something that was coming up or maybe they'd take, go to court for one thing or something or maybe if that didn't go too good or something. They said, any time that you would mention Crumlin's name around town, these people would panic.

DW: Who's these people?

CF: The white people. They would panic because they were scared of that name, James Crumlin. They know he was coming to town, and they would just go all to pieces.

DW: Why would they go all to pieces? Why would they panic when they heard Jim Crumlin's name?

CF: Because they know that they were doing wrong I think for one thing. They knew what they was doing or trying to do was wrong. They of course, I mean like 20:00some of us they was diehards, they didn't want to give it up, didn't want to change. So I think that was partly it because you know how traditions go. Just like some families' traditions. So I think that ( )

DW: Do you think they saw Jim Crumlin as something that was going to make the change here and--

CF: Yes, I think that's what it was. They knew that a change was coming and they wasn't ready for it or they didn't want it.

DW: Can you remember any interactions between your dad and the NAACP maybe the state headquarters, which would be I guess Mr. Crumlin in charge of that in Louisville or do you remember any kind of strategies that they planned in order to integrate other than to file suit alone.

CF: Well, I think one time did they have a march here?

(): ( )

CF: Yeah, I think--

DW: That was the statewide march.

(): I don't know. I can't remember a march.

CF: I know one time, well, I know--let's see now. I'm trying to think. They had a meeting over there, a state meeting or something ( ) one time ( ).

DW: Yeah, there certainly was a meeting I read about in a church building that over 300 people attended.

CF: Yeah, I think so because I knew or you remember, what's his name, ( ) beard. They say he was running around downtown talking about all them people coming in here--. They was going to be marching around town or something and said all those white people downtown was scared because all these black people was coming in. They was on a march or something, but it wasn't--

(): ( ) I can't remember.

CF: I don't know whether, I don't think it was a march. I think it was just a meeting that they was going to have over there. That's--I can't think of no 22:00meeting, I mean no march, that they had. Now they might have, because like I said I wasn't here when a lot of the stuff went on. I read about it or someone had to tell me about it.

DW: Do you know much about the meetings that went on, either the big meeting or other meetings that went on from even if you weren't here in town when it happened? Did any white people attend these meetings?

CF: I think they had a few supporters, but I can't--I don't know exactly how they were. But I think--. Hmm. A lot of them, some of them wanted to be in the background, didn't want to come forward, but I mean they would support it if it was financial help or anything. Some of them would because a lot of the 23:00women, they worked for some of the people around in their households, and the women, they would support them or give them a little money or something to help the cause or whatever. I can't recall. I don't know the name. I'm scared to call any names because I might get a wrong name though. I think some of that went on too. They had some, they had some backing. Some of them didn't want to be known that was doing it. Now I think, I know one I believe now, I think Bill Walker was a supporter.

DW: Bill Walker's a white man.

CF: Yes, he was a white man. He owned that flower shop down there.

DW: You say that some of the, there may have been some white supporters that would support but only kind of from behind or from the back stage, behind the scenes. What was the purpose of that? Why--

CF: Well, they didn't want nobody to know, I guess. Well, I would say I guess, well they had to, like I say they had to live in this community and live with these people, and they didn't want to be singled out or probably because somebody might retaliate against them or something.

DW: For helping the blacks out, for the whites helping the blacks out.

CF: Yeah.

DW: Okay. Do you feel like that was a good support system at the time? Do you think that there was, even though there was a small number do you think the few whites that did help out the cause made it a little bit smoother or did it even matter?

CF: I don't know. ( ) like I say I didn't know that much because I wasn't that you know actively involved in anything.

DW: Did your father ever speak of any, after the fact, after let's say 25:00Jackman's gone and black students are attending the Adair County High School, did your father, what was his feelings a couple of years after this all happened? How did he feel about the situation?

CF: Umm. Well, he said--I don't know. It was a lot of work to it, and he said it wasn't a lot of so much of a physical work. But it was a lot of mental work and a lot of mental strain because I mean he had to watch himself as he moved around because like I say he was a truck driver out there. He said he had to watch himself out there on the road because never know whether somebody might try to do something to him. So he had to be on his guard at all times. So I 26:00mean after it was accomplished I think it was a satisfactory feeling, and it was something he said that needed to be done and should've done a long time ago. You know due to the circumstances of the time and everything it just probably just wasn't time for it to happen.

DW: After Jackman was gone and maybe let's talk a few years after it burned down and even after the integration maybe a few years later, what do you think the effect of that was on the black community the fact that the main center black school was gone? How did that affect the community, the school ceasing to exist?

CF: It took some getting used to because then there came, and see the blacks 27:00around here, we didn't have any school buses. If we got to school, we had to, the black kids had to walk to school.

DW: All along, even when Jackman was in--

CF: When Jackman was in there because there was not a school bus. They did not allow, they did not give the blacks a school bus to ride. Now I think the whites, yeah the whites had a school bus. They had school buses.

(): We couldn't ride buses until we started going to the white school.

CF: Yeah. So I mean all around here in this community of course I guess they showed you where it was located at.

DW: Generally told me. She didn't see but--

CF: Well, see, I mean, anybody from around here in this area or up there on the hill that we just ( ) or anywhere. A black lived had to go to that school. They had to walk. Like I say, we had them old pot belly well, they wasn't pot belly but them old--well, pot belly or warm ( ) 28:00heaters. Them old coal stoves that ( )

(): ( ) burned the school down ( ). They didn't want nobody ( )

CF: Yeah.

(): They never did tell who done it but they ( )

CF: Stoves ( )

DW: Is that what burned the building down?

CF: Um hmm. Yeah.

(): ( )

DW: Is there any feeling, I mean was there ever any curiosity if it was done on purpose at all?

(): It wasn't done on purposely do it. They just ( )

CF: I think it was kind of cool that day.

(): It was cool.

CF: It was cool that day and they were trying to warm the school up.

DW: Okay. Okay. How do you feel, this is, how do you feel that race relations have been in Adair County or in Columbia over the years since you were in school, over the last forty years or so?

CF: Well, I'll say, I think they have improved some. But it's still on the 29:00subtle side. I mean, you still have some, I mean some they will treat you, I mean, talk to you, treat you just like you were, I mean there is no difference. Then you have some that's artificial, and then you have some that's just down right nasty. So I mean it's still kind of a mixed, mixed thing. You have to weed your way through. I mean you can almost tell who is who. But some of the relations, race relations, they have changed considerably from what they were since that school--

DW: It's still in development you think.

CF: Yeah. It's still, it's still got a long ways to go.

DW: Yeah.

CF: Because here ( ) and the school system it is still not where it should be now.

DW: In terms of what.

CF: In terms of integration because they have what about two, two black 30:00teachers out there. I mean that shouldn't be. Because I mean, there's enough blacks around here or anywhere that's qualified to do the same thing out there that, the ones that they've got out there. See most of them, the way it used to be, it used to be family tradition. If mama and daddy was teaching okay, you've got a son and daughter going through high school, you're going to send this child. He's going to graduate from high school. You're going to send him to college, and you're going to stay there until they graduate out of college and come back and take the job. So it just a revolving ( ).

END OF INTERVIEW 13