Oral History Interview with Joseph Gavi

20.U.7.GAVI

JOSEPH GAVI

INTERVIEWED BY

ARWEN DONAHUE

JUNE 14, 2000

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS IN KENTUCKY

KENTUCKY HISTORICAL SOCIETY

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ARWEN DONAHUE: …the levels right, the recording levels right, so…

JOSEPH GAVI: One, two, three…One, two, three…One, two, three…One, two, three…One, two, three…One, two, three.

ARWEN DONAHUE: Why don’t we try – just tell me what your specials today are, if you know them.

GAVI: Today’s specials, Salisbury steak, beef stew and baked chicken.

DONAHUE: Sounds good. Do you cook at all?

GAVI: No, not me.

DONAHUE: Okay. And what do you think of this hot weather?

GAVI: It’s terrible.

DONAHUE: I agree, I don’t like it at all. All right it’s June 14th, 2000, the year is, I always forget. And we are sitting here in Joseph Gavi’s restaurant. It’s just called Gavi’s Restaurant in Louisville, Kentucky. And we’re conducting an interview with Joseph Gavi. And this is an interview for the, it’s part of the Holocaust Survivors in Kentucky interview project, which is sponsored jointly by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and the Kentucky Oral History Commission. Just a note for the tape, Mr. Gavi has had a wonderful book written about him by Carleton Jackson. That book is available and we are not going to repeat all the information in the book. So, this interview is a follow-up and we’re just going to be asking some questions, some focused questions about his experiences. But maybe what we’ll do along the way and maybe you can help me out with this, Mr. Gavi, is just kind of, we’ll go through periods where we’ll just kind of summarize what happened. And then we’ll go into detail at certain points. And I’ll, you know, ask you questions to help guide that process. But first of all, I wanted to find out what your name at birth was and your date of birth and where you were born.

GAVI: I was born in 1931 in Minsk, it was the capital of Byelorussia in Soviet Union, November 20, 1931, like I say.

DONAHUE: And your name at birth? Was it the same as it is?

GAVI: The same like it is, yeah, Joseph Gavi.

DONAHUE: Do you know anything about your family history in the area of Minsk? Were your family in that area for many generations?

GAVI: All what I know, little bit, just little bit about my grandparents – in time when I was old enough to understand and observe them. Before this we don’t have any kind of history. Just our name from the father’s side, Gavi. I don’t know for sure, but accidentally we find out what in Rome, nearby Venice, it’s a winery, Gavi, Gavi winery. And I think when Jewish people emigrate from Spain, was left by order of Queen Isabelle and probably part of them stopped in Italy and maybe some of my family stopped in the Gavi region and received the last name. I don’t know for sure. It’s what I think. And it’s no way to track this, because after the revolution, the old archives was, most of them was destroyed. And many of adults just hide in the past because, say if before the revolution he was, if he was a business man or if he owned some properties and if you was a, like they say a Capitalist, you be punished. And people hide this stuff, this kind of information. Because of this, I couldn’t find anything. I don’t know anything about my past. Just what I see with my own eyes.

DONAHUE: Now I know that in that area of the Soviet Union into which you were born, that religion was discouraged in general, but did your family have any kind of religious practice in the privacy of your home?

GAVI: Yes, my grandfather, my father’s father, was a very religion person. And he couldn’t find a job in Soviet Union. Nothing, just in our region, around the whole country in the whole Soviet Union, the whole two hundred eighty or fifty million people was not allowed to practice religion freely. And because he practice Judaism, he cannot work Saturdays and he was without a job the whole time. And he practice the religion, all holidays and everything, the whole family. I mean my father’s side, especially my father’s side of the family.

DONAHUE: Would you all gather together on Sabbaths and pray, or how did you…?

GAVI: No, we not praying. I don’t recall what we pray, but all eastern, I mean the Jewish Passover and different kind of – the whole family was together and celebrate. This what we allow to do and pray. And I know my father have religion things, some dress and this kind of things, what he have to wear when he practice the religion and he pray. Probably he pray, I don’t know. I don’t recall. I was just a little boy in this time. Or I didn’t pay attention. But I remember him wearing, my father to wear this stuff on himself. Probably he pray.

DONAHUE: So you probably didn’t learn Hebrew then or Yiddish?

GAVI: No, no. Yiddish, yes, because we talk Yiddish in the family. Till the early eighties, I know Yiddish very well, I speak fluently. And this twenty-two years I didn’t practice any. I’ve forgotten a lot. But I understand each word. And my kids they didn’t know of course, Yiddish. My wife doesn’t know Yiddish. She understand, but she cannot speak. And my daughter-in-law the same way. Because it was, in Soviet Union it was forbidden to – not against the law to speak Yiddish, but it was no use. And most of Jewish people, if they have a chance to hide their nationality, they did. Because the whole door was closed if you are a Jew. For example, my grandfather, mother’s side, he owned a little leather factory, maybe ten, fifteen people working for him. And after the revolution it was confiscated and he was not allowed to live in the city. The same thing with my father, my grandfather from father’s side, he was not allowed to live in downtown, just on suburbs. And till the late forties, we lose our right to vote, because they was considered like Capitalists. They have no right to work. See?

DONAHUE: So you spoke Yiddish in the home and then Russian out in public?

GAVI: Yeah, yeah, in the home everybody spoke Yiddish. Grandparents, my father and my mother, everybody, they speak Yiddish between them and the kids, all kids, my nephew, not nephew, my cousins, all of them speak Yiddish. I mean my generation, of course.

DONAHUE: Did you have a feeling as a child of being different from other people because you were a Jew?

GAVI: You know when I was a child before the revolution, I was never told I am different because I am discriminated or something. But I don’t know why, but I always, how I remember myself I have this feeling what I am different. I am not equal to everybody. Everybody have rights, everybody is free to do this and this and this. Maybe because I listen what the adults talk and it settled up in my head, in my brains. And I never have feeling that I am at home over there.

DONAHUE: Even before the German occupation?

GAVI: Yeah, yeah even before the German occupation. Either after the German occupation when we was in the concentration camp, our people called them ghetta(SP). It’s not ghetta, it’s death camp. Around 1942 it was order from Stalin headquarters to not accept the escapee from the ghettas(SP), from the concentration camp.

DONAHUE: You mean into the partisan groups?

GAVI: Yeah, do not accept them. When I bring the groups to the partisans. They were lined up and the authorities from the partisans take everything what is valuable. Gold, rings, guns if somebody have, money, everything. And sent them further to some special Jewish group. And most of the people who I bring from the ghetta to the partisans in the forest, was strong men and women, who want to give their life to fight the Germans. They was not allowed, because they was Jewish. By special order from the Russian government. And this is the truth. It’s a documentary truth.

DONAHUE: Did that affect you, we’re skipping a little bit, but did that affect you at all when you were in the partisan unit and that order came down?

GAVI: You know because the partisans need lot of intelligent work and how you understand adults doesn’t have the capability because they are adults and bring attention to themselves, to do what kids can do. We was used to do the intelligent work. To go to Minsk, for example, to the underground organization to bring people and these kinds of things. You see? And this because and plus I was very successful and plus our chief of staff in the group, for some reason he like me very much and he like, not official, of course, but like he adopt me . And when we dislocated in another location most of the kids like me were sent to the special Jewish group and I was with the main group until the end.

DONAHUE: And were you ever discriminated against in the group for being Jewish?

GAVI: Never, never. No, no. No, never. I mean it was no – see people can play games on the job. On a construction site, I mean, in some apartment buildings, you know, neighbors, between neighbors and this kind of things. But in a war time, when every day, every single day you can be killed and you can depend on the people who you’re going to discriminate – people doesn’t do this. I never feel any discrimination in the group.

DONAHUE: Backing up just a little bit, before the war started when you were in school, the book mentions that you were studying music before you went to regular school. Were you mainly studying with non-Jewish children or were most of your friends Jewish?

GAVI: No, it was a very prestigious musical school. As a matter of fact there was just one musical school in the city. And my father, he was opera singer and he knows lot of, he know the principal of the school. They work together in opera sometimes, probably. And I have enough qualities and he want me to be a violin player. And he bring me to the school when I was five year old, something like this. No, it was not a Jewish school. It was a school for everybody, I mean, for kids who have qualification, I mean musical qualification, qualities to be in the school.

DONAHUE: Did you ever play music again after the war ended?

GAVI: No, of course not. First of all, I didn’t have the violin and the first time when I tried to play the violin, it was in 1983 or in 1985, sometime, I don’t remember. We have a customer and he bring me, present to me, a violin. And I bring the violin home, but you know I didn’t play for thirty-five years, forty years. And you know, it’s…

DONAHUE: But that’s a wonderful gift for a customer to bring you, isn’t it?

GAVI: Yeah, uh huh.

DONAHUE: That’s really something.

GAVI: We have things got. We have very good relations here with the people. We are in the same place for almost twenty years. And this place became like a political club. People discuss things, politics. [LAUGHS] I mean people came to our place not just to eat and to socialize. And I try to be active in these kind of things, though my position – I am a very conservative kind of person.

DONAHUE: Do you also talk to people about your past and where you come from and what you’ve been through?

GAVI: Yes, sometimes yes. Sometimes we discuss the stuff and we talk about this. Yes. We talk about this, yes.

DONAHUE: Have you always been, have always been able and interested in talking about your experiences or was there a time when you really didn’t want to talk so much?

GAVI: Special when some people start to say, this is a lie, it’s never happened. Jewish people make this up. I understand it’s my obligation to, because I was a witness of the whole thing and to go to the public and talk about this. I start talk in schools and university and colleges and some reporters take interview, that’s how the book coming out, you see. Yeah, I talk. Not just about this, I talk about the difference between socialistic and capitalistic system, about what is freedom in the meaning of American people and what is freedom in the meaning of people from Soviet Union. It’s a complete different things. Many people in United States, not because they’re not smart enough, because they just don’t have this double experience, they don’t understand the nature of people who never was free. And some of them make wrong decisions [INAUDIBLE]

DONAHUE: So, what does freedom mean to you now?

GAVI: It can be, I can say this in just a few words, freedom, real freedom it’s freedom of choice, freedom to express yourself, freedom to do everything what you are capable to do in the law orders. And freedom to be rich, freedom to be poor, freedom to be smart and freedom to be not smart. I mean, and plus in Russia, people think if you can say bad words about the president it means you’re free. And I say, it’s not true, this is just a little part of freedom, just a little, tiny part of freedom. I say I don’t believe in equality, I mean what every people are equal. Not it’s not true. Every people, it’s equal, they have equal opportunity here in this country. This is the freedom, this is the main freedom. When you have equal opportunity to be somewhere. Back in Russia, in the totalitarian countries, you don’t have any opportunities. You are not free because of your religion, you are not free because of your nationality, you are not free because you don’t want to kiss somebody’s staff, you are not free. You cannot be a scientist because you are smart. You become a scientist because your background, it’s from the country and poor people. But if you was rich and you are smart, you cannot be a scientist because nobody going to accept you. You not equal. I mean, you don’t have equal opportunity like everybody else. Like us, Jewish people, we don’t have equal opportunity like everybody else, because we are restricted what we can do, what we cannot do. Doesn’t matter how smart we are, doesn’t matter how hard workers we are. Doesn’t matter how loyal we are to the system or to the country. It doesn’t matter where you are born, if you are Jew you are not equal to everybody. Here in this country you’re equal to everybody in the same day when you step on this soil. Everything depend on you, how hard you going to work, how much brains you have, your ability like a human, like a person. This what it matter, not where you are born and by who you are born and what is your background. It doesn’t matter. Even if you came from very poor family, you can be the great scientist and you can be billionaire, more money in the bank. Finished college, became somebody. This is just one country where you can do this. This is freedom, not just to say Yeltsin is a crook and not go in jail. It just may be one million of a part of a freedom. And soon as I understand this – it came not immediately, it came in time. I need time, maybe seven, eight, ten years before I start to understand this. And I became a very conservative person. I don’t believe on the Affirmative Action. Not because I am a racist. I am not a racist, I never was and never will be. Because I think Affirmative Action destroyed your soul. You can become a person, a great person in competition with others. If you have just ten positions, who going to, who can have the position? Ten best people, not because you are a Jew, not because you are colored people, African-American or Hispanic or something. No, because you are better. And in this country everybody can be better. Doesn’t matter what color he is, doesn’t matter what nationality he is. And our life, our family’s life proved this. We came to this country without money, we had not left a penny. As a matter of fact, we owe the government ten thousand dollars, because government pay the air ticket, pay us to stay in Italy before the paper was ready for three and a half months. And we owe, it was like a loan, ten thousand dollars. With a negative budget, but we work very hard, whole family. And the family was together and we make it.

DONAHUE: I was wondering about that. Before you came to the States you had had so many, you had so much time spent in the mountains and so many adventurous experiences. And as a young man you were so eager to always be, kind of out adventuring and exploring. Was it difficult when you arrived in the U.S., that you were kind of, you described in the book how you were told by somebody to work with your hands and you just became a painter. Were you bored or frustrated?

GAVI: First of all, I know what I going to the country which language I don’t know. I understand very clearly that without language, without ability to read and write and speak this language, I cannot be a teacher and I cannot be a scientist, because I have to sit in library and read to be a scientist before the laboratory. But I have to live, I have to eat, I have to support the family. It means I was prepared psychologically to give up for Freedom what I was in the past and start to do something what is possible to do to make a living. I didn’t make a person say, oh, I was a scientist, I read twenty-nine articles, I cannot dig holes. No. It’s nobody fault. I cannot blame anybody. I appreciate what they allowed me to come here and this is my price. I did this for my kids, for my family. And it’s not a big deal. If I be a Noble prize winner scientist, I understand the country going to give me an interpreter and I be working. But I was very ordinary scientist, thousands and thousand like me and I cannot expect special attention to me. This because the guy who interview us, he told us forget about everything, all your diplomas, start do something with the hands, because your future, it’s in your hands. And he was right. I make just one mistake, I work too hard physically and I didn’t have enough time to learn the language. Because if I be, if I understand, if I be have better understanding about the life in United States, I would spent more time to learn the language and become a physical therapist by reciprocity. Because I was for many years a very good physical therapist. But I never think what I can go and ask for some help, you know? I was so appreciative that they allowed us to come. Because before we came to the United States, the whole three and a half months, we didn’t belong to Russia, we didn’t belong to America, we didn’t belong to Italy. We didn’t belong to anybody. We didn’t have anything. We lost the citizenship over there, we didn’t receive here. Italy was so kind to let us stay for a couple months. And what if America go and say no, what we going to do? It’s such a terrible feeling. You have to feel this to understand. It’s terrible. And I was so appreciate when I receive the okay to come to America.

DONAHUE: So you were happy to be here even though you were painting walls?

GAVI: Yes, didn’t matter. What’s the big deal? How I understand the prestige to be an honest man, a hard working man, to make yourself. Not to be scientist, not to be billionaire. It’s very nice to be billionaire, but you have to have billionaire brains. What if you don’t have the brains? How you…

END OF TAPE 20.U.7a, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE A

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.7a, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE B

ARWEN DONAHUE: …to accomplish. I think you’re being modest to say you didn’t have the brains, because you were, you were very – you had published all of these articles. You were very, you were very accomplished.

JOSEPH GAVI: Yeah, I understand. Over there, but not here. Like I say, I cannot expect to be a teacher, to teach physiology, for example or to be a physical therapist. I have to write. I have to read. And I understand this clearly. How can I expect and blame somebody? But nobody obligate to feed me and give me a living. I have to do this myself. I understand. This is a free world. To me this is the main meaning of free world, you are for yourself.

DONAHUE: Did it change your life in the United States when you really started to learn the language and to master the language and be able to communicate to people who you are?

GAVI: You know. [LAUGHING] I remember first my job in painting union, I paint Cook County jail. And in lunchtime, it was fifteen, twenty painters that work for the same company. Everybody lunchtime they have their brown bag and sit at one table and eat the lunch and talk. And I don’t understand not a word, to me was like a sound, wooooh, wooh, wooh. I cannot separate letters, words from each other. And I think, my God, I am already – it was 1979 and I was forty-eight year old and I think, my God, maybe I am too old to learn the language, to communicate. But I think to myself, I don’t have another choice. I have to do this. And listen, I never was a painter and I don’t know the language and the foreman give me orders and I don’t understand what he want me to do. And I don’t know, even if I understand, I don’t know how to do this. And thanks God, people was so nice here. He understand how hard it is for me and he was a Polish guy and I know Polish language a little bit. He said to me, don’t worry Joseph, I going to help you. And he teach me how to paint and he didn’t fire me if I make mistakes. It’s so wonderful. It was so nice. It was not a second for the whole twenty-two years when I think, oh my God, what I do? No. Whole time I thank God what I did this, I was allowed to do this. It’s because it make me nervous and it make me very mad when people said, oh, I was in old country. I had this kind of position, this kind of position, this kind of position. What I do here? I say, take your old think out of here. It’s nothing what to do for you here. Go over there, where you came. Who is obligated to help you? Why you have to be helped? If you are strong and can work, not for ten dollar an hour, for five dollar an hour, like I work. The whole family work for two and a half dollar an hour, but five of us, we have twelve and a half dollar an hour. You see it was lot of money. And we understand this kind of things. Don’t buy, don’t spend more than you make it. This simple rules put family together, we survive.

DONAHUE: Do you like working in the restaurant?

GAVI: All my life I was a teacher and all my life, in the mountains, in the college, in the university I like to be between people and I enjoy. And it doesn’t matter, if I need I make deliveries, if I need, I wash dishes. It’s work. I don’t feel ashamed what I wash dishes. Every job that a person make it’s very prestigious if you’re honest, if you do this by the law. And soon as people understand this, is no way for them to be not successful.

DONAHUE: That’s good advice. Have you traveled much around or do you go to the country here? I know you mentioned that part of the reason you wanted to come to Louisville was because you could get out to the country a little more. Do you ever go?

GAVI: Yeah, you know in 1980 when the recession start I was unemployed. And here in Louisville was our family friends. We was sent to Chicago and they were sent at the same time to Louisville. And they invite us to visit them. And I visit and compared to Chicago it’s a quiet city and very green and nice and we fall in love and we just move to Louisville. And we decide to stay here. But we travel. We was in Mexico, we was in Italy, we was in [INAUDIBLE] for a day. We was in Switzerland. My older son, he was building contractor. By occupation he was a civil engineer. Soon as we built our home for ourselves and we think if we build for our self, why we cannot build and sell. And he start to build and sell the homes and make a living. And by the rules if you say, buy so much lumber from the lumber company they award you with free tickets in the hotel for say ten days in Italy or Sicily or Spain. And he was so kind and he give it to us, to me and my wife and we travel a little bit. It was wonderful, of course.

DONAHUE: What about, the mountains were such an important part of your life. Do you ever get out to the mountains?

GAVI: See this is another mistake what I make. If I have more knowledge about United States, about the recreation, what people do in the free time and vacation time and how it is important, I would be moving not to Chicago, but in Wyoming, to the mountain climbing school, because I was one of the best mountain climbing instructor in Soviet Union, with thirty year experience. And I was strong like a bull and I was a good mountain climber. And I know I will find a job over there with my experience, to teach people how to climb, to be a guide in the mountains. But in my understanding in this time when we have to make the decision, who need, who hire me to climb mountains and pay me money? You have to do something material, you have to build something, do something what it’s people need everyday, to make money. I never think about this, you see. And then around six or seven years ago I started to have high blood pressure and I cannot go with the high blood pressure. I tried and it all come together. And probably if I be going to the mountains, to Wyoming or Colorado where there be mountain climbing schools, I be not with high blood pressure, there be no arthritis, because it is a very healthy style of life. I, I, you know back in Soviet Union, the mountains was the best part of my life, the mountains and the physiology. And I miss this very much.

DONAHUE: Have you ever gone to Wyoming or to Colorado and visited?

GAVI: No, never. I planning to do if I have time to retire.

DONAHUE: I was interested also, earlier on when you were still in the Soviet Union, when you were working on your degree, your PhD towards Physiology, the book mentions that you were studying – you wanted to do some research in addition to your teaching and that you were studying the effects of high altitude and low oxygen. Can you talk a little bit about what got you interested in that and your findings? What the implications were?

GAVI: After few years, after I became just a teacher in the university. I think to myself it is not enough for me, I have to do something else. And because I am a mountain climber and it is very important to know the physiology of climbing, how the high altitudes change your style of life in the mountains, your thinking and everything - to study this stuff. And I went to Academia of Science in Byelorussia, in Minsk. It was an institute of physiology. And talked to the chief of there, he is an academic. And he said it is very interesting, but he said, it’s not my field. I am a physiologist, a regular physiologist. What I can offer you, if you like it, if you like to study physiology, gerontology. This is a new field what we offer now and if you like I can be your leader. I think to myself, if I going to start, study more deeply the physiology, I going to understand more about the high elevation and how it affect you and everything and I can do this study for myself. It’s what I did. Every year when I go to the mountains, I study how the pulse of the person, how much energy he lose, how much energy lose the experienced person and the person who came just first time and without acclimatization and with acclimatization, how much acclimatization. I did this. But my main field in physiology was, and my dissertation was in gerontology.

DONAHUE: So the list of publications, of the articles that you published, there were a lot of things – those were all related to Gerontology?

GAVI: Eighty percent probably to Gerontology, yeah. Gerontology, electro-physiology. I study lot of things, how much time different levels of our nervous system can survive without oxygen at all. The brain and next level, next level, next level until the very primitive. I wrote very scientific articles. Of course, I miss this too. And sometimes when I just came to the United States, I think maybe I have to go to some laboratory and wash the dishes, just to be nearby. But without the language I understand nobody going to give me this job. And when I came to Louisville, in few years I met a guy and we talk and I tell him what I was physical therapist. And I was a good physical therapist because I was physical therapist and a physiologist. I understand the whole mechanism how it works, not just you have pain here, here is the exercise. I understand the whole process, how it works, because of my physiology background. And he said, you know what Joseph? I have a friend, he is the chief of the personnel department in Saint Anthony Hospital and I’m going to call him up. And he call him and I have an appointment and I came over there. It was in 1984 or 1985. I came to them and I bring the translation of my dissertation, my publications, everything, my diploma. He said, you know what? I want the chief of the department to give you a tour and she going to ask you a few questions and we’re going to go from there. And here comes a young lady, probably your age and we talk. And she try me, ask me questions and of course the answer to the questions are now fifteen years ago, because of the experience, of course. Not because I am smarter than she is, because I have such a big experience. And I say, I be glad to work for you without pay, just let me work. You don’t have to pay me, you don’t have to spend your budget on me. And she said, I am impressed. I am so impressed. You are going to come here. And in a few days they call me up and they say I am overqualified for the job. [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: That’s frustrating.

GAVI: It’s very frustrating.

DONAHUE: I wanted to back up a little bit…

GAVI: What I want tell you. Doesn’t matter what job I do or I do deliveries or I wash the dishes. Or I work like a painter. For the whole twenty-two years in the United State, I cannot remember not one day when I was not reading. I read, I read, I read, I read. First I read Russian publications and this kind of things. Now I read everything. I cannot survive a day without a book.

DONAHUE: What do you read?

GAVI: I read everything. I have to read. I read everything. I read articles, I read newspapers. I read books, different kinds of books, history, I like history books, political books. I just, I can not, I just cannot spend a day not read.

DONAHUE: Do you hope to retire at some point soon and pursue other things?

GAVI: You know, because of family and financial things, my social security is very low. It’s around four hundred dollar a month, plus I receive around three hundred dollar a month from German government because I was in the concentration camp. I cannot have living on this kind of money. I have to work. And I enjoy it. It’s okay. It’s okay if a person works if he die. It’s work. To be between people.

DONAHUE: And does your wife work here too? I know we just talked about your daughter-in-law working here.

GAVI: No my wife works too. She works here from the day first.

DONAHUE: Is everyone working here part of your family?

GAVI: Yeah, as a matter of fact, except one guy, Sam. Everybody, my grandson, my daughter-in-law, my wife and me, five of us. Everybody works here. But it’s okay. I cannot blame anybody. You can just draw from Social Security so much, how much you put in. If you didn’t put in, you can’t expect to be paid more. And you know, it’s very important to understand this. That nobody is obligate to spend his life to make me happy. I have to spend my life to make myself happy. And soon as I understand this, I don’t feel bitterness, absolutely, because everything what’s happened with me is my fault. Especial here in the United States. You know I can give you a very simple example, in 1979, ’78, ’79, around three hundred thousand people, Jewish people from Russia came to United State. In this period of time and everybody was on the same level, the same absolutely, without language, 99%, no money, no knowledge about the country, nothing. I mean start from the same level, absolutely. In ten, fifteen years, part of these people became middle class, part of them became millionaires, part of them became criminal millionaires in jail, part of them on welfare. You see? But everybody have the same opportunity because people are not different, after ten, fifteen years they don’t have an equal life and this is normal. And nobody can blame anybody, just himself. This because I am happy what I have.

DONAHUE: Do you have, I know there are many other Jews who emigrated to the United States from Russia and the former Soviet Union. Do you have friendships or contact with the group? Is it like a community?

GAVI: Ehh, it, yeah it is a community, but you know, I have a few friends, of course. I have many friends. I don’t have enemies at all. But close friends I have few, just few. We didn’t stick in the community because to be over there in the community you have to live in such conditions, what it’s not acceptable to me. And first of all and second, I understand if I want to go jump in the water and learn to swim, I’m going to learn the language. If I going to stay in the community, inside, I never going to speak English language. And I need the language and I move to Oldham County. And this is the answer. And I know several people who came together with me, but they stay in the community. After twenty years, they still doesn’t speak English. They don’t speak, they don’t understand anything. They don’t read. They don’t write. Unhappy. From one side, community is okay, from another side it’s make damage to you. It shrinks your abilities. I want to be an American. I am an American. I don’t be Russian or German or Polish. I want to be an American. I want to be between Americans. Speak to them, understand them and have a life like everybody else, not like a separate group.

DONAHUE: So you don’t actually live in Louisville? You live in Oldham County? What’s it like there?

GAVI: Oldham County, yes. Very nice when we bought the lot over there for seven thousand dollars. It was no road, no anything. [LAUGHS] And now it’s a very prestige neighborhood and very – how to say- very expensive right now, because the whole city move to east side. And it’s no land available around. When we, when we buy the land over there everybody in the community said, not in Oldham County, but in Russian, you are idiots. What you do? Why you go so far? My God between nobody. I mean you don’t have any friends over there. And I say to my family, I say, this what we have to do.

DONAHUE : How have your relations been with the neighbors there over time?

GAVI: Oh excellent. Very nice relations. We never have any problems, never, never. The best relation, I never feel, I never feel what, what I was discriminated because of my accent, what I’m discriminated because I am from different country. Never, never, especially in the neighborhood, never.

DONAHUE: Is it a Jewish neighborhood primarily?

GAVI: No. [LAUGHS] I am just one Jewish people in Oldham County. Is no more Jewish people in Oldham County.

DONAHUE: And does anyone know that you are Jewish there?

GAVI: Of course. I speak to the high school many times. And they know what I am survivor. I speak to the graduating high school for two semesters. And they wrote articles about me in the county newspaper. I never hide what I am a Jew. Why I have to? I am an American. I understand somebody doesn’t like me. He doesn’t like me, I don’t like him. That’s it. It’s a free country.

DONAHUE: How do the students respond when you go and speak?

GAVI: Excellent, excellent. You know, in 1999, the first semester they learn. I speak to half of the high school, around six hundred kids for six hours in one day, for a hundred and fifty kids in each section. And the second semester, it was in April, I speak to another half of the kids. I was invited. And the teacher who organized this, he’s the chief of the historical department in the school, he said, we invite many speakers for the kids. And most of the time kids are sleeping. Nobody sleep when I spoke to them. It was millions of questions. And the questions were so mature, so interesting, so difficult.

DONAHUE: Do you remember some of the questions that they asked you?

GAVI: Yeah, I remember some questions. They ask me why the Germans do this, what they did, the Nazis, I mean. Why people doesn’t resist and allow them to kill. What condition was in the concentration camp. How it was in the partisans. How they fight. And they just look on you and because I was a teacher all my life, I feel the auditorium and I feel the connection with the people to who I speak. And I don’t lose not one second the attention of the kids and this because they didn’t sleep. And I was invited to a black neighborhood, the west end, to a middle school, it’s sixth graders. Wonderful school. And the teacher called me up and asked me what I can come and talk to the kids, not just about the survival from the Holocaust. He said, the kids doesn’t know, they don’t have any information about Jewish people and like he said, because everybody associate Jewish with the crook. I mean, not honest, rich and these kind of things. And he said, if you can come and talk about your past and little bit about the history of these people, how they was discriminate all their life. And I talk to them and listen. It was maybe forty, fifty kids in the class. And soon as I finish and the teacher said do they have questions, all fifty put their hands and ask questions. And the questions was so nice. And in two weeks, I receive twenty-eight letters from them. This is the response.

DONAHUE: Well, that must be interesting, not only to talk about the Holocaust, but to be talking to kids who’ve never met a Jew before. Do you feel comfortable?

GAVI: Very comfortable, very comfortable because I believe in things what I’m talking. I talk about, about the Jewish people, about their history, about the Holocaust. I talk about the free enterprise in the United State. I talk about the equal opportunities. I talk about Affirmative Action. I tell them what I tell you right now, about the welfare system. I told them, don’t believe your leaders if they say to you to demonstrate because it’s not enough money for the school, because of not enough money you be……

END OF TAPE 20.U.7a, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE B

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.7b, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE A

ARWEN DONAHUE: …that’s never, it doesn’t turn out to be quite as good as if you start out with it quiet. Okay, so this is tape number two, side A of an interview with Joseph Gavi. And I don’t think I mentioned at the beginning of the last tape, my name is Arwen Donahue. I usually say that at the beginning. I’m sorry, go ahead and pick up where you left off.

JOSEPH GAVI: Yeah, I told the kids what, their future, it in their hands. It doesn’t matter, I say, what color you are, what nationality you are, you can became everything what you are. And I say Affirmative Action allowed you to be, not better than everybody else. To be successful you have to be better, you have to work hard. I won’t go to you if you became a doctor, not because you became a doctor what you are a black person, because you are good, very good, very nice and very smart to be a doctor. And the kids, they like it what I say. And I believe in things what I said, I believe in free opportunity. I believe in equal opportunities. I believe in these things. And probably, probably, somehow the kids understand this and feel this. That’s because they listen and they send me twenty-eight letters.

DONAHUE: Have you experienced any anti-Semitism at all since you’ve come to this country?

GAVI: Not directly, no. No, no. I understand it’s plenty of people, you know, how you call, white supremacist or what you call them. They don’t like colored people, they don’t like Jews. They don’t like any immigrants. And you know, I understand it’s sick people. They are mentally sick. People who doesn’t have any future, I strongly believe, especially in the United States. If, either, if I, if somebody tried to discriminate me, I would not be surprised. I know what it’s, many, many people in this country and between them some of them doesn’t like me because I am Jewish. It’s normal probably. This because people are not equal, they are different.

DONAHUE: Before you left the Soviet Union, it’s discussed in your book how you had made the decision to leave the country. And originally you had an exit visa to go to Israel.

GAVI: Yeah. It’s not because I want to go to Israel.

DONAHUE: Right, yeah, I was wondering if you really, at that time, if you had a strong trust in the United States political system and really wanted to be here or was it just because of the family that you had here that you wanted to come?

GAVI: First of all they have a lot of information about the United States, I mean, from people. Nineteen seventy-two, seventy-three the information start to come to Soviet Union, little by little, more and more. And we have some information about the political system here. And it was no question for us what America is the most democratic country in the world. And beside this, the .whole family of my wife was here. Her sister, her brother, her mother, first part of her family came to the United State in 1907, 1907, 1920 and ’72, ’70 and ’76. Everybody was here. And I want to go to America.

DONAHUE: Did you ever have any interest in going to Israel?

GAVI: Yeah, I planned to go to Israel, but I didn’t have enough money to go over there. I cannot go with just myself. I have to go, we have to go together. We never was separated with my wife, not for one day.

DONAHUE: Really?

GAVI: Yeah, really. And you know, for us, the two of us, we need around five, six thousand dollars to go for seven, eight, ten days to Israel, tickets and stay over there. We just don’t have this kind of money to spend. And soon as we are going to retire we are going to go to Israel another day, if we going still alive, of course.

DONAHUE: Were you ever a Zionist or involved in any Zionist organizations?

GAVI: No. I cannot say. I feel sorry for myself, what I am not really Jew. [SIGHS] I raise with all this. I mean – I think, I cannot say what it is no God. I cannot say what it is a God. I don’t know, but I, I am so jealous to see how people go to church, everybody dressed up and talk. They went to the mass and so and so, or to a preacher. I went couple times to a synagogue, but I didn’t hear anything. I don’t feel anything. It’s like a switch, you just throw on the switch and here is the light. No. You have to have here a feeling, otherwise you lying, you lie to yourself, you lie to everybody else. Really I’m jealous to see how people do this and truly believe it. I talk to many of them and I see how they believe in everything and I think, my God, why not me. So it’s happened. I never was Zionist. As a matter of fact, I believe in Zionism. I believe what people have to fight for their rights to be equal to everybody else, I mean equal rights. And I believe, but I never have a chance to be a Zionist.

DONAHUE: Are you connected, since you don’t go to Synagogue, are you connected with a Jewish community here in Louisville?

GAVI: Yes.

DONAHUE: And how do you see them or get together? Group or…?

GAVI: They send me invitation and I speak to synagogues about the Holocaust and the Holocaust Memorial Days, whenever that day is, I go over there and I talk.

DONAHUE: Are they as receptive and interested in hearing about your experiences as the young school kids who aren’t Jewish?

GAVI: No. [LAUGHS] No. I don’t know, because maybe, maybe for the rest of the population this is new, for them it’s, they know very well, because each family have an experience, have somebody who die in the Holocaust. And they know the stories and everything, you know. I’m just one of them, not less, not more. And I understand this. I understand.

DONAHUE: So do you have friendships with other Holocaust survivors in the area?

GAVI: No, not in this area, it’s not too many. I don’t have time, but I know a few of them. We never talk about….I don’t know. It’s just I know him, he knows me and that’s it.

DONAHUE: I’m asking because for some people who I have spoken with they’ve told me that it’s so important for them to have company with other Holocaust survivors, because they feel that only Holocaust survivors could really understand them. Do you feel that way?

GAVI: I don’t feel this way. I don’t feel this way. And I don’t understand what another people cannot understand. What has happened terrible things, everybody understand this was terrible, to kill people just because they are Armenian or Jews or Gypsies or Blacks or something. Everybody knows what is terrible, like I know what is terrible. The only difference, I know in my skin and they know from my experience, what I tell them. This is the whole difference. And anyplace where I talk people are very sympathetic, very sympathetic and listen very careful and very gently. And the question is very gently and I feel this. I don’t feel what you have to be a Holocaust survivor to understand what has happened. Everybody can understand what’s happened if you got a heart.

DONAHUE: Do you feel like, well when I started doing interviews with Holocaust survivors in Kentucky, I was wondering, do people understand that – I think a lot of people think the Holocaust is something that was very long ago and far away and that Kentucky is not a place where even Holocaust survivors live. Do you feel like you’re, you’re accepted as a normal member of community or do you think people look at you kind of as uh, oh my goodness, this person is just…

GAVI: You know what? Till, till this year, till the book was published, nobody knows what I am a Holocaust survivor. I didn’t say anybody, listen, I am a Holocaust survivor and nobody knows. And I was accepted very well, everywhere. No, I don’t feel, no.

DONAHUE: Have things changed since the book’s been published?

GAVI: No, nothing changed. I wash the same dishes. I do the same deliveries and I do some cooking if I need. I wake up five o’clock in the morning, came to the work, to the job and the relation with people are the same. Everything is the same.

DONAHUE: Are your customers buying your book and reading it?

GAVI: Yeah, I sold around, probably more than a hundred books here. And people ask me, and ask and ask. And I call to the publisher and he send me some books. And I sold the books and send him the money and sign the books. It’s normal.

DONAHUE: Were people surprised at finding out what your life had been like?

GAVI: You know it’s, it’s, it’s such a nice surprise. It’s not like they, they put a hand in your belly. No. I don’t know, it’s so nice, it’s so gentle. I don’t feel anything. Nothing change. As a matter of fact, I present the book to the mayor of our city. He eat in our place many times. And I sign the book for him. Today he came to eat and he said, oh, I read the book and he said, it’s so interesting. He said a few good words to me, you know? And okay, I’m not going to go and ask him favors.

DONAHUE: But it makes you feel good because people are…

GAVI: Yeah, it makes me feel good when I receive the twenty-eight letters from the kids, very good. It makes me feel good when the teacher said, nobody sleep when you was talking. It’s very good. And when people said it’s very interesting book and I understand much more about the whole thing after I read the book than before, of course it make you feel good.

DONAHUE: Maybe now would be a good time to back up a little bit. I did have some questions about the earlier time. And maybe I’ll just say a few words for the tape about, just to summarize or give an overview of what was going on. And you can correct me if I make any mistakes. So, after the German occupation – you were in Minsk and after the German occupation, you and your family were put into a ghetto, into the Minsk ghetto. And as time progressed, eventually you were, you became involved in the underground movement and were smuggling people out of the ghetto and into the nearby forest, where there were bands of partisans operating.

GAVI: Not just this. I was smuggling too, the intelligent work about railroad, to blow up trains. To bring some medicines to the partisans. To communicate with Czechoslovakian people, who was routed to German Army. And to go to the underground organization, not in the ghetto, but in Minsk itself. I was not just, I went not just to the ghetto. I was strong. I didn’t have any fear. I don’t scare about anything because I was young, probably. I was successful and I was happy. Any every time when I accomplished something I was award with [INAUDIBLE] and later on with decoration. And you know, I was still a child, a kid. I was so proud.

DONAHUE: Yeah, that’s amazing about your, your experiences back then. You were about twelve or thirteen years old when you started doing this?

GAVI: When we was put in the ghetto I was, in ’41 I was ten year old, in November ’41, I was eleven year old. This was the first time when I started to escape from ghetto, to go and bring tobacco for my father, which I left in my old apartment building. Later on when I was twelve year old I tried to escape many times and I make connection with war prisoners and help them to escape.

DONAHUE: Yeah, now that’s described in the book, that you were working and these people escaped with your help, but they didn’t keep up their end of the bargain.

GAVI: I did everything for them. I bring them civilian clothes. I stole for them a gun. [INAUDIBLE] If I be catched, each of these activities, I be killed on the spot. And they denied to take me.

DONAHUE: Were you ever afraid?

GAVI: Afraid? What you mean, what you mean?

DONAHUE: Scared. Were you, I mean you were doing extremely dangerous things. You knew what the consequences were.

GAVI: Never. I don’t know why. Maybe the whole kids, maybe this is the specific psychology of kids, they don’t understand clearly what they can be dead. I don’t know why, but I never was scared. And later on when I became a mountain climber I never was scared either.

DONAHUE: It’s just your – something special about you, I think. [LAUGHS] I think I would have been.

GAVI: I was scared for authorities. I know, you know, to break the law, these kinds of things, always, I’m scared to death. But I never was scared to die because I do something.

DONAHUE: I was wondering after that incident with, when you helped the Russian prisoners of war escape and then they said, sorry kid.

GAVI: Go home.

DONAHUE: You’re too young, go home. And you had helped them by stealing a weapon. After you got back to the camp and those people were, to the factory and those people were discovered missing, were there any repercussions?

GAVI: No, no, no. I didn’t come back to the factory. I come back to the concentration camp. To the ghetto at nighttime and nobody knows I trying to escape. I came and my father and my mother was surprised what I am back because they know what I have to go over for prisoners. And I explain to them and next day I went again to the factory to work.

DONAHUE: And was there any problem at the factory with those two people being missing? Were they asking anybody questions about it?

GAVI: No, they didn’t ask anybody questions. It was big deal when they discovered was a missing gun. They hold us all night long, but not because….This they discover before they left, they escape. But after they escape I don’t know what they was thinking. No. Maybe they ask somebody questions, but not me.

DONAHUE: Also I wondered, in your role as a guide and as a messenger for the underground, in the book it mentions that it was because of your small size. Was there any other reason or was it really just that you were able to kind of slip past people unnoticed?

GAVI: It’s very important to be in the right time and the right place, how you say. Because the lady who came to the concentration camp have to stay for all winter because of the blockade. She, by accident, became a friend to my mother. By accident my mother told her the stories how I escape many times and come back and these kind of things. And by accident it was the blockade and she was scared to go, but she was a big girl, she was scared to go back because she can be captured if the blockade still exist. And who can go through the blockade except a little child? Nobody going to pay attention. And she ask me, by accident, my mother or mamma allowed me to go over there and find out about. And she told me the story where to go and how to find and who to find. And I went. By accident I find a group, which wasn’t from the same brigade what she is and they trust me and they bring me to their main camp. And probably the commanders of the group think if he can do this, he can be a messenger. And they start to send me and I became a part of them. Many kids do the same thing, many, many. But most of them was captured and die, tortured, terrible death. And I never was captured, probably by accident or somebody upstairs looking for me. Who knows?

DONAHUE: During that time that you were with, you were with a partisan fighting group – did you carry a weapon?

GAVI: Right now I am not too big. [LAUGHS] But this time I was just a little one and a rifle was too big for me. And partisans was very, very good to me and present me with a Browning. You know Browning? It’s a…

DONAHUE: Like a semi-automatic?

GAVI: Semi-automatic pistol, yeah. A little one about twenty-two caliber and it was rusted and it was no bullets, but I was so proud. You know? A child is a child. And when I send, when I was sent say to do intelligent work, I didn’t have to have this because if somebody catch me this be the proof from where I am. I never, I don’t need this.

DONAHUE: You described after the war ended that you, you had a real machine gun and you went back to the house – so how did you get a hold of that gun and did you have it for a while?

GAVI: Yes. The guy who adopted me, he was, he was ordered by the Russian Army, regular army to take the old partisans and bring them to the regular army, to different cities probably, seventy, eighty miles from the place where we stay. And we have a couple of machine guns. He give me one machine gun and he take another machine gun. And when we delivered the whole group, probably three or four hundred people to the regular army, we went back to the headquarters of the partisans in Minsk. And he want to meet my mother and ask her if she’ll allow him to adopt me. But first what I want do, I want to go to our apartment and kill the people who not allowed my mother to stay when she escape from over there with my little brother. This how I have the machine guns. And the next day when we went to the headquarters I receive my decorations and they take us, take from us my machine guns, his pistol…

DONAHUE: Can you just describe, I know you did on the book, but can you describe what happened when you approached that house with the machine gun?

GAVI: The people saw me, they recognized me and they left and run away. I try to catch them and shoot them, but thanks God, I didn’t, I didn’t. But I was so mad. I was so mad.

DONAHUE: Did your mother know what you were going to try to do?

GAVI: Yeah. She asked me not to do this, but I say I have to, I have to go and do this. Was a terrible thing.

DONAHUE: Have you, have you, are you still angry at all at the German nation, at the German people?

GAVI: No, not at all, not at all. The nation doesn’t have to do with this anything. I mean, you know, if you know the history you know why it happened. And it can happen by accident as it happened with the Germans, but it can happen with anybody. In the Middle Ages it happened in Rome, it happened in Spain, it happen anywhere. In 1915 it happened to Armenian in Turkey. In twenty-four hours, one and a half million Armenian was killed just because they are Armenians. They was not Jews, they was Armenians. The Gypsies was not Jews, they was Gypsies. Probably close to a million people was killed just because they are Gypsies. No, I don’t feel any hatred to German like a nation, absolutely not. But I hate anyone who still right now, make a tattoo with a swastika. Oh, I am sorry. I hate these people. I don’t respect them absolutely. One time I stand in front of the restaurant, I mean in the front room and some delivery person from the meat company – it was last summer, came to us and bring some hamburgers. And I see a tattoo, a swastika on his hand, a tattoo. And I call up his boss and I say, it’s your problem you can have this person, but never send him to me again, never or I going to stop buy from you.

DONAHUE: Did you say anything to the young man?

GAVI: He is not young. He was probably around forty, forty-five. What I can say? If it’s not brains, it’s no brains. I cannot put my brains in his head. And right now, even in Russia where twenty million people die, killed by the Nazis, it’s some Neo-Nazi movement. And it’s not against the law. In America, Neo-Nazis can have their meetings, can be together, can have their publications, everything. They propaganda. If you want…

END OF TAPE 20.U.7b, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE A

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.7b, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE B

DONAHUE: …the boss of the man who was, who had delivered the meat with the swastika, say to you?

GAVI: He is agree and he never send me this guy back. And you know, you ask me about or I hate the nation – between 1950 and 1977, I climb many, many times mountains with German mountain climbers, with Austrian mountain climbers and they know what I am a Jew, but I was equal to them like a climber. And I have excellent relations, excellent relations. Why I can hate them? What they have to do with this, I mean? Especial kids and grandkids to the people, people who did this, who was involved in this kind of terrible things, what they have to do with this? Take a look in Austria when the right leader was elected to be a prime minister, take a look what’s happen this country. Everybody was against him. A proper Nazi, and I forgot his name. No, the world is changed. It’s not the same. It’s wrong to build relationship with another person according his nationality, his color, his believing, his race. It’s wrong. It’s terrible wrong. This what I am against. What, how I can hate them? I don’t hate them.

DONAHUE: I noticed in the Jewish community paper here for Louisville that on, that this year you went to speak at the Holocaust Commemoration Day, I believe with your son and your grandson.

GAVI: And my grandson.

DONAHUE: Are your, are your family, including your grandchildren very involved and interested in your past and your history during the Holocaust?

GAVI: I never talk really about the Holocaust in the family. We never talk about this. But right now with the book, my grandson helped to organize when I speak in Oldham County. Now, yes. They know about it. They ask questions. But you know, young kids – it was long time ago. And I’m not sure what it’s touched their heart. I don’t know, maybe later on. A plant, the seeds drop in their heads, like I try to drop seeds in the kids’ heads to who I speak. And I know what is going to grow and grow and grow. And they going to understand differently.

DONAHUE: Do you feel that it is important to them to, for you, for them to understand what happened?

GAVI: Very important, very important. Because if you, if a person understand how terrible things happen to people on the base of religion, race and nationality, if you understand what this is not right. It’s wrong. You’ll, already you are a better person, you see. And I think we have to do everything to explain people, especial the young generation, especial in schools. I am not surprised what many schools right now have Holocaust classes. And I never, I was invited many, many times and some people ask, we don’t have money to pay and I say, even if you have money, I not going to accept any money for this talk. Because this is my obligation.

DONAHUE: Is there anything else that you would like to say? I had in mind that I was going to ask you several more questions, but I don’t want to…

GAVI: [INAUDIBLE] a few more minutes…

DONAHUE: Wait a second. Did you ever try to hide your Jewish identity after the war when you were in Russia?

GAVI: When I was in the Navy, because I was scared. Was they going to push me out of the Navy? Are they going to know what I am a Jew? It’s mean, all time, either when I was twelve, eleven, ten, fifteen, sixteen – I was scared to be a Jew. But officially I never hide that I am a Jew. In all my documents and everywhere I said what I am. I am a Jew.

DONAHUE: Was that because you, did you have a choice about that or did you really…?

GAVI: No, you have no choice. Everybody have a passport and ask who is your mother and father. And if both of them are Jews, how you can be a Turkey? [LAUGHS] You don’t have any choice.

DONAHUE: And did you ever feel bitter? I mean you really didn’t have a childhood, much of a childhood.

GAVI: No. [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: Did you ever regret that?

GAVI: What you mean?

DONAHUE: Were you ever sorry that you had really lost your…?

GAVI: Of course I am sorry what I lost my childhood. Of course I am sorry. What I grow up without a father, doesn’t have a childhood. It’s stolen from me, not just from me, from all my generation that lived in Russia.

DONAHUE: Do you have any way that you memorialize your father or remember him?

GAVI: I don’t remember him. I don’t remember him. I don’t remember how he looks, I mean. I just don’t remember. I don’t remember. I try to remember. I try to find his photography, his photograph, his picture in archives and I ask my brother to go over there and try to find him. He couldn’t find anything. Everything is destroyed or top secret. In this country, everything is top secret. Everything, either what is in your refrigerator it’s top secret. Everything. You cannot touch anything.

DONAHUE: Thank you very much for spending time with me today. Is there any final words that you have?

GAVI: I think all my life I am lucky and in the rest of my life I am lucky twice what I am in America and it’s a great deal for me and for all my family. And for whole world what America exists and it’s a great thing. And people have to understand this, how wonderful is the country, this system. I am not a religion man, like I say, but when I think more and more, why the United State Constitution survive for so many years and everything what it said in the Constitution, it’s like it’s written for today. And maybe I am mistaken, but I think the answer is because the Constitution, it is basing on natural needs of the people, on the ten commandments, on the law, the trust, the honesty what’s supposed to be. And listen, it’s worked for two hundred years. And what more lucky you can be to be part of this country, really. I am surprised when people start to say bad word about America and Americans. I cannot stay around. I go away. Really.

DONAHUE: One more question. You run this restaurant, it’s right across the street from the police station in Louisville. You must kind of be very aware of what’s going on in the city. Can you just say something about that?

GAVI: What’s the question? What you mean?

DONAHUE: Well, I just wonder how, how, whether you really are interested in what’s going on in the city around you and feel that you have a good understanding of what’s going on and are involved in discussing it. I think maybe some people are more – just listening to you talk about your feelings about the country, this nation and your interest in it. It struck me that you’re in the city, too and that you’re kind of right in the middle of things. And I wondered if you really are interested in observing what’s going on politically.

GAVI: Of course, of course, of course. Of course, I am interested. What I can tell you, what else I understand. Soon as we have Republicans and Democrats, soon as they fight each other, we are okay. And what more they fight each other, the better it is for the country. Now it’s lot of discussion about the police department, what they have to have civilian review on everything. I am not agreeing with this. I don’t think so. It’s such a danger and difficult job to be a police man. Really. I see them every single day, many of them and their families, not because they became friendly with me. No. I have bitter time with police, too, but you cannot take amateur and put him in a chair and judge a police man, who are on the street, who put his life on the line to protect you. And this is make by, to make this political correct. And I say I reject the word political correct. I know a word, morally correct. You have to be correct morally. Your morals have to be correct. But not everything what is political correct is moral correct.

DONAHUE: Thank you very much.

END OF TAPE 20.U.7b, JOSEPH GAVI, SIDE B

END OF INTERVIEW

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