Oral History Interview with Fryda Haber

20.U.10.FHABER

FRYDA HABER

INTERVIEWED BY

ARWEN DONAHUE

MAY 17, 2000

HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS IN KENTUCKY

KENTUCKY ORAL HISTORY SOCIETY

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ARWEN DONAHUE: I’ll…So….Okay, so I’m just going to do a test with your voice.

FRYDA HABER: Okay.

DONAHUE: Your husband, your son works in the hotel business.

HABER: Was working, now he is in gasoline business.

DONAHUE: Here in Lexington?

HABER: No, in Austin, Texas.

DONAHUE: Okay, how long has he been, how long has he been in Austin?

HABER: Oh, about ten years maybe more.

DONAHUE: Just to get a little more of your voice would you just tell me a little bit about…

HABER: My grandchildren? [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: Your grandchildren, yeah.

HABER: I love them dearly and we help them how we can and that is our life.

DONAHUE: Okay, this is doing fine. This is an interview with Mrs. Fryda Haber. It is May 17th, 2000 and we’re in Mrs. Haber’s home in Lexington, Kentucky and we’re doing this interview as, we’re going to mainly focus on Mrs. Haber’s life after the Holocaust because she has been interviewed by the Survivors of the Shoah Foundation. And so we’re following up and filling in on that interview, but we are going to be doing some pre-Holocaust and during the war, covering some information from that era as well. My name is Arwen Donahue. And this is tape one, side A. I sound very loud to me, turn this down. So, let’s start with your date of birth, because I actually didn’t catch that from your other interview.

HABER: My birthplace?

DONAHUE: Your birth date.

HABER: Oh, that is 14 November 1915.

DONAHUE: Fifteen? Okay.

HABER: Fourteen November, one, four.

DONAHUE: That’s near my birthday, too. Mine’s the third.

HABER: Your birthday, too!

DONAHUE: No, no. It’s near my birthday.

HABER: Oh, near.

DONAHUE: So, you were born in Krakow, Poland.

HABER: Yes, in Krakow, Poland. We are from generations in Krakow.

DONAHUE: How many generations?

HABER: All of my family. Oh, maybe three, four generations. What I know. What my father told me, we come from Spain in the time from Inquisition. So the family come to Krakow.

DONAHUE: And you mentioned in your other interview that your family was not extremely religious. You went to the synagogue.

HABER: No. No, no, no, no. My parents was Jewish, of course, from a very orthodox family. And now I am thinking and surprised why they was not orthodox. They was not. But they was Jewish, they go to the synagogue on the big holiday. Passover was Passover, celebrate. And my father go to synagogue when he have [INAUDIBLE] from the parents. And that what I saw.

DONAHUE: What language did you speak in the home?

HABER: Polish. Polish, but I have an opportunity also to speak German and French, because we have different friends and my parents spoke also many languages. So they give me also the opportunity to go to private school and private lesson in languages, too.

DONAHUE: That was unusual, wasn’t it, not to be speaking Yiddish in the home, to be speaking Polish?

HABER: Oh yes. What homes they are speaking Jewish, but not me. And that is the reason that I understand some words, because I understand German, but I cannot speak Jewish, Yiddish.

DONAHUE: I would imagine that, that, that your Polish, your native Polish would have been very helpful in your passing later.

HABER: All of those very different things, very important things. That remind me, that would be very interesting how we come to the papers. We have not, we have not thinking about escape. Not at all. Because we was in the village, Oscar, my husband, is a farmer’s son. The father was not more alive, but wonderful momma, which was also my mom. God Bless her memory. And sisters and brothers and an old grandma from my husband. And Oscar was working as a dentist, of course, not official. But he was also working in the camp, that he will have told you about this. Also a story from a thousand and one night. Opposite the house was a church and a priest come to Oscar. He was a patient. And after treatment we talk always together. That was maybe two months before the liquidation order of the Jewish people. He called me and says to me, you know Mrs. Haber, it come terrible time for us and I will help you. So, I said, how you can help me? I give you a birthday certificate and marriage certificate from a patient what is not, is in Switzerland. And then you must go to another office. I said, look, I cannot decide it. I must go to my husband. In the first moment, Oscar said, no, what, I will leave my family? He was a wonderful son and a wonderful brother. That was a wonderful family. So, he said, no. After two days he said, you know, maybe it is good to have [INAUDIBLE] papier, that is Christian papers. I come back to him and I said to him, if you will be so kind, we accept it. But what will we do with the family and the false papers? He answered me, my child, I was young. You cannot help your family. You will go like they are going and I cannot help everybody. Why? Because nobody speak Polish like you. Our Polish still now is perfect. You have, you don’t look like Jew, not your husband. And your behavior is also different, so I cannot help you – I cannot help your family, but you, I want to help you, because I want that you stay in life. Of course, without money, without nothing. So I told him this what, look, I know that Christian religion is missionary. And you know my parents, because my parents was for a little time in the same place. They are also not religious, but they are Jewish. I am also not religious, but I am Jewish. And when you think, when I survive, I survive, but who knows. I will not change my religion, because I believe in God and God is one. That I told one of Rabbi, but the Rabbi from really honest, modest man and he was looking at me. You know, Mrs. Haber, you are a holy person because Jewish, even Yom Kippur, when the life is in danger, they can do everything to go far, to travel, to eat everything. And that, the same situation was in your case. [LAUGHS] From this time he called me the Rabbitson. And that was stupid from my side, I must say when I look now. Because you can say no, but I am too honest.

DONAHUE: What was the name of the priest that helped you?

HABER: Doctor [INAUDIBLE] Oshetsky(SP). Oshetsky(SP)

DONAHUE: Do you know how to spell that?

HABER: I try. O S I E C K I. Oshetski(SP)

DONAHUE: And you had just one brother in your immediate family, is that right?

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: What was his name?

HABER: Edward.

DONAHUE: Was he older or younger?

HABER: He was younger. He was fourteen years when they took him to camp, to concentration camp and he die a few days before Liberation because he was….He was sick. He was hungry.

DONAHUE: Were your parents and your brother together at the time? Did you find out?

HABER: Where?

DONAHUE: In the camp.

HABER: Oh no, no, no, no, no. My father, later they took him to the camp in Puskoff(SP) near the place what we stay. And my little brother was in other camp, of course, from many, many camps. And my mom stay in Ropczyce, that was not far from the village. And two weeks before the Liquidation I go to my mom. I go very often, it was not long. So, I took the autobahn and I took food for her and I make the trip in one day. And I said, Mom, she was also, she was speaking wonderful Polish. I will show you the pictures. And I said, Mom, it is very difficult, come with us. She was optimistic. I have money to survive. They will not do nothing to the woman. But in two weeks, she was no more. They took her to Treblinka. I lost my family. My father survive Auschwitz, but in terrible shape. You can imagine. We live together in Krakow, then in Belgium for a few years. And then we go to Israel.

DONAHUE: So, your mother was, your mother and your father were separated? When your mother was in Ropczyce?

HABER: Yes, of course. They didn’t look that we are separated now.

DONAHUE: So, where was your father, was your mother in hiding in Ropczyce?

HABER: No, no, she was in ghetto, in ghetto. Then come the last annihilations, so they go to Treblinka. All the family from my husband. I have even the number, the train and everything which they go. Until now, I cannot look on the trains, you know this, I cannot look, because when I hear, I tremble. I cannot take it, even after so many years, because that is in my inside.

DONAHUE: Where was your father when your mother was in the ghetto in Ropczyce?

HABER: In the camp.

DONAHUE: He was in [INAUDIBLE]?

HABER: From Ropczyce they took him to the camp.

DONAHUE: And was your brother with him, with your father?

HABER: No, no, no, no. Brother, they took him before. Was not that they come the family together, on contrary. They took all the members of family to work in different places. No, they was not so human.

DONAHUE: We just didn’t get that story in your interview before of what became of your family.

HABER: I think so, I think so. I think that I said that already. Yes.

DONAHUE: Let’s move on then. How did you meet Oscar?

HABER: Oh! [LAUGHS] That is a long story. In Krakow, his nephew introduce us. And that was, that was about ’37. And that was a very nice man, intelligent. And we go and he come to our home and he, the nephew, and he ask for to marry me. And I said, yes and my parents say, we will give you the answer. And then I was looking very serious. I was always too serious. And I said, what I say? That is not my type. He was not keep his promises, you know? Never on time. I am always before. And no job stability, no job. And no, I cannot marry such a man. He was not in Krakow. He come to Krakow. So when he come to Krakow, I said, you know, I cannot marry you. Why? Because you are so, so, so and I am the opposite. Yes, I will change. I said, no, you will never change because that is your character. He was very angry and he told me, I will kill you. So far. Ooh!. So, first I have, one of my friends was a lawyer already. And I come to him and I said, what I can do? He said, don’t worry. When he say that he will kill you, he will not kill you. But it is good when you can go somewhere. We have a large family, my father in Belgium. So, I told my mom, because I was afraid for my father. And I said that is the situation and it will be very good when I go to Belgium, I have such a large family. So talk with Daddy. She convinced him and I go to Belgium because of this. In the meantime, Oscar finished his military service and he come to us to ask where I am. They say that I am in Belgium. When I come, they didn’t know. Because the family want that I stay in Belgium and I get married in Belgium. But I didn’t want to stay. I was a Polish patriot and I said I go home to my parents and to my background. I come back together with my cousin from Belgium because his brother and my cousin wedding. And I come with different perspective. Belgium was different, but Poland. The lifestyle was different. My family was very rich. Of course I saw a life what I never saw in my life, until now. [LAUGHS] And I decided not go out with men. I want to rest. That was such a bad experience for me. And we have in our house, we have, it was, they make, that was wine from honey. And that was two brothers. And she was friends from the same place. And he said, Fryda, I want that we met together and you will tell my from Belgium. I said, I don’t know. Said, please, once you can say you go with me. Okay, I go. And in Poland, in Krakow, and in Poland general, you have not a car at this time. It was electric transport. We go. We was walking. I go to my school more than a half hour every day. We go to the street in the town and I met my Oscar. Oh, you are back. Of course I was very happy to see him. I like him always. So he said, so when I can see you? I said, no, I don’t. That is exception that I come with him because I don’t want. My education is Business Academic, so I want to work. I have enough men. He said, no, please, please, once. [LAUGHS] So, I decided to come. Generally young people come in my house, because people, my parents want to know with who. But he was working far from my house. So he has next door a cinema, movie, yes? And he didn’t come. And I come early because I am always early. Of course, I was very angry. He called me that he had a very difficult treatment and telephone was not – we have telephone at home, but not by this. And I don’t want to meet him. Again, I met him, that was in November ’37 and in December we was engaged. [LAUGHS] That is the story. We were three years engaged because I was waiting for apartment in our house. That was two or three months before the war, that was like in renovation. I judge already furniture because my father was in furniture business.

DONAHUE: Did your parents approve?

HABER: Oh yes, very much. Yes. I will never get married when my parents say no, never. No. After while come the father with his nephew from Krakow to talk with my father. They met at some café. He says, look, you can talk to your daughter. He says, I cannot tell her. I can forbid not to marry, but to go marry to somebody what she don’t want, I will never do it. So, that is the story. And we are sixty years married and we knew each other three, five years before, that is sixty-five years.

DONAHUE: So, you got married in 1940, is that right?

HABER: In ’40, in the village, in the village, but come a rabbi from Debica and it was a little reception, too. Even our friend, we not believe as people, come. And they help us a lot during the war. They bring my parents from Krakow, my cousin, our furniture. And that was danger, that was his, that was a life what they done for us. SS, SS. So, not everybody. Not every German was, mostly was bad, but was good people, too. And that is in every nation, are good and bad people. My opinion, my experience. Because Polish people help us, too, without money, without money.

DONAHUE: And you described, you mentioned in the interview some of the many Polish people who helped you. And one of the things that I thought was very striking and important about your experiences is that you were helped not just by one isolated individual, but by so many people. And I wonder if you would – I mean, I’ve heard people say the Polish are anti-Semitic. Would you argue against that, based on your experiences?

HABER: Anti-Semitic are everywhere. In Poland, I speak about Krakow, was, of course. But I, personally, I didn’t feel this. I always went to Polish school. I didn’t feel it. But it was of course, of course. But I will tell you that Jewish people didn’t like Polish people, too. It was not one sided. And I am objective, because I want that people understand. And anti-Semitic is everywhere, where is one Jewish, is anti-Semitic and here is different. They love us so much.

DONAHUE: When you were passing as a Christian, you mentioned in your other interview that you had, you were attending church. You were even giving religious lessons. Did you take communion? Or how did you deal with that?

HABER: No, no, first, first the Christian religion was not strange for me because I was to Polish school. Of course when they have religion lesson, we go out, the Jewish in there go out. But the priest was a wonderful man and you was a wonderful relationship with the priest. But, so I know something about, not something, a lot of Christian religion. But when we decided to go, to change our identity, I was learning myself from the book. So I knew a lot. And of course we were in a village, so that was necessary that we go to the church. But I never go to communion and I never take the bread and this. And we go to church when was the time, so we try not to go in the same time, what the people who know us, they go also, because I am too honest to take this, you know? That don’t belong to me. The blood and this what was in – of course that was not blood, that was wine and the piece of bread. No we didn’t take this. But we go every Sunday to church, of course. And I was doing this, but I pray in my language, Polish language.

END OF TAPE 20.U.10a, FRYDA HABER, SIDE A

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.10a, FRYDA HABER, SIDE B

DONAHUE: I wanted to make sure that I understand where you were during the war, because you were moving around from village to village a fair amount in hiding. So, you started out, after you got your papers you went to stay with the priest’s brother? Is that right? And where was that?

HABER: That was in Czchow(?), so when we escape, the last day, when the Jewish people should go to Ghetto from the village. So we said only, Oscar said only to one brother that we escaped and the money what we have we give to everybody the same, some money. And we take very little things, because that was good to be poor and we left this night that in the morning the Jewish people should be transported to the Ghetto.

DONAHUE: How far from Debica was Czchow(?)?

HABER: Pardon?

DONAHUE: How far from Debica was Czchow(?)?

HABER: Ah Czchow(?), it was a trip. With train maybe one hour, but we, and we go with the train, but in the next station, not in the village what was our station. And of course, we look different already. My husband was in very shape, coat, not coat, but dressed and I look also different. Of course, no make-up, nothing. I had long hair. And we go to the next rail station. Overnight we walk, we walk. I was not so afraid for me, because nobody knew me, but Oscar, they knew him in the area. But we come safely to the train at the last minute. We didn’t buy ticket. And the first people what we met, that was two SS men. [LAUGHS] And Oscar say to the conductor that we have no ticket because we have not time. We come at the last minute. So we pay and of course my, my soul – the first that was….But you know, how I was in danger every second of our life – I didn’t think that they would kill me. First. Secondly, you have always weapon. And we said when we, the little opportunity that they come to pick us up, we will shoot at them first.

DONAHUE: How did you get a weapon?

HABER: Oscar did.

DONAHUE: You don’t know how he got it?

HABER: He got it before the war, too. That was a life danger, because you must give everything. [INAUDIBLE] in any case.

DONAHUE: Did you ever have any – I know about the one important close call that you had when the Gestapo came, but did you ever have any other small, or less dangerous encounters where you felt that somebody was suspicious of you or had some idea about your identity? For example, if you went to church and you didn’t drink the wine did you ever have any trouble?

HABER: No, no, no. It was too many people. But when the confessing in the church, the priest saw Oscar and he looked like a Polish man. He make this, how you say…?

DONAHUE: Mustache?

HABER: Mustache, oh he looked different. And he asked next day, to the owner what he was working, who is the man? He want to be a peasant, but he looked like an intelligent man. But he said, no he is working for me. And when Gestapo was looking for us, so the, how you say, the head of the village, and he said, I give my hat that they are not Jewish people. They are very religious, they are very poor and they are working. No, they cannot be Jewish.

DONAHUE: How long were you in Czchow(?) with the priest’s brother?

HABER: I was about one year, one year. Yes, yes, one year. And then we, when we finished the work we had a place to sleep on the bed. And very good [INAUDIBLE] place. She give me milk, you know, to drink. And Oscar promise, he make very quickly connection with people. I learn this also. I was not like this, because in the village and in big places, they are, you have different mentality. You know? So we saw the Gestapo. We have this discussion, Oscar, I said, come, you are so tired, come home. He said, no, I must go here because I promised. And so we were in discussion when we saw the Gestapo, and of course we know that is for us. He said to me, turn, go back in that, that was in May, so everything was so high. And let this milk, because we will not need it. Because I was, you know I didn’t even know that I had it, because I was so afraid. And we go to the forest. Then was dark. It was in May. In Poland, day are nice, but the night are very cold and I was not dressed. What to do? No document, no clothes.

DONAHUE: You didn’t have your papers with you?

HABER: No, because I went to work, that was by the people what we are, where we sleep. Without shoes, what to do, where to go. Oscar was in the underground, AK, you hear about it?

DONAHUE: Armia Krajowa?

HABER: Armia Krajowa, not like a Jewish, like a Polish officer. He was an officer in the Polish army. That helped him a lot, also. So he go to one of the members from AK, and oh, he was so happy, because people already say that they pick us up and they killed us. That was very good, that we are not killed. He let us to sleep in the, how is it, on the dark(?) How you say this in English?

DONAHUE: In the barn?

HABER: No in the barn

DONAHUE: In the attic?

HABER: Attic. And he give us a bread and milk and he give us something to do, but who can eat? I was not eating. And we have a very good, Oscar had a very good friend. That was a wonderful family. And he called him. The men go to him and say, look they are by me, but I cannot keep them because the Volks Deutsche are in my house, too. So he come and after a few years, after the war, when we visit this people, I ask him, what he was thinking about us, when Gestapo? They were always looking. You knew that we are Jewish? He said, I think that I know that. And before when he go to the work, so he was [INAUDIBLE] he was not anti-Semitic. Give the Jewish people work, buy food and that was a danger also. Cigarettes. Wonderful people. Yes, but when I saw you, so I must change. I said for any price, I will help both of you. And that was danger for his family, for his house, but he help us until the last minute of Liberation – without money.

DONAHUE: And that was F. Muschau(SP)?

HABER: F. Muschau(SP). I will show you later the picture. He die and his wife die, but we visit the children. One daughter is in the village and one is in Krakow. After the war, when we only start to have something more than to eat, very modest, so we help them and we send them. So far, when we were in Krakow, in the village of Czchow(?)[INAUDIBLE] he say to us, please don’t send us nothing. You see everything what we have, that is from your money, from your help. You can imagine that? A man with character, with honor, but we send them. And we send now to the children, not too much because we have not too much, but we help them. And we’ll never forget.

DONAHUE: And then after you got in touch with him, you stayed with his sister? Is that right?

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: And where was that? Was that in Czchow(?) also or a different village?

HABER: Oh, that was a different village, but not far from this village, but very good strawberry place.

DONAHUE: What was the name of that place?

HABER: Wesnova(SP).

DONAHUE: And that’s where you stayed until the end of the war, is that right?

HABER: No, not exactly because we was also by the Muschau(SP) when was danger there we come here and he make a bunker in his room. He was wonderful.

DONAHUE: Did you ever have false papers again or were you from that…?

HABER: Oh yes, we stay when – after liberation when the Russians come, we come to Krakow, of course. So, we stay one year of false paper for security reason.

DONAHUE: You mean after the war was over?

HABER: Yes. Because it was progrom in Krakow too.

DONAHUE: How did you get your second set of false papers?

HABER: Pardon?

DONAHUE: You mentioned that you had left behind your first set of false papers that the priest had given you, right?

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: So you got another set?

HABER: I give him, he say, I was to come back. He didn’t give us the paper when was ready. Was also not so easy, but everybody make this, Polish people make this without money in different offices. So, and he, the priest said, when you are ready to go, you come to my office, you give the Jewish paper and you take your [INAUDIBLE]. And that was the case. And so we have not the Jewish only the Christian paper.

DONAHUE: But when you left, when the Gestapo came to Czchow(?) and you escaped to the forest, you didn’t have your papers with you then?

HABER: Nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing.

DONAHUE: But you go another set of papers?

HABER: But then thanks to this man, Muschau(SP), he go to the place and he take the papers and everything. Yes. But you know papers help and don’t help you. For me it was easier. For my husband it was not so easy, because you can see that he is Jewish.

DONAHUE: Do you remember the day that the Russians came in and you were liberated?

HABER: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. We was by the sister and they come with the uniforms on and we glad. And we are happy to see them, but we cannot show that we are happy, you know? Because the Polish people don’t like the Russians and the communists. And what was, we saw them and we was very happy that they are here and come. The last German, what is it in English? The Muschau, the wonderful man, the last schnokner(SP) caught in the hand. And they bring him to Oscar. They brought him to Oscar because he have a little Red Cross from the, from, on the [INAUDIBLE] Army. And he give him the first aid. He give him vodka to drink and other things. And was another man also hiding [INAUDIBLE] and they cut the rest of the hand and he was without hand. And I ask why he deserve this, why he deserve this? You have a lot of questions, but not asked. He didn’t deserve. So after this we go, now we want to know, we go to the village. Oscar.

DONAHUE: [INAUDIBLE]

HABER: No, [INAUDIBLE] by Debica. And the people was wonderful. The mother when they throwed us from the house, I come back. So, come a woman, a Christian woman. They were in very good relation with the Christian people. So she said to Oscar, mother was [INAUDIBLE], too. We love each other dearly. So, she said, don’t worry, you will have place by us. And she take twelve people to her. And to take Jewish people was not a big honor, it was a danger, but she did. And we come to the people, she die in the meantime. And the little things, what we left by them, they give us back everything. They was wonderful. And we take the furniture, some things what left, they go to Krakow with us. They go with us, also a danger because the German, the Russian take the horses and this. But God help us. And it was a curfew, you can only go to six o’clock, so we must make, stay somewhere. And he must to give the horse food. Then start my story. I fail, you know and Oscar tried to give me life back. I was for one minute, for one second – he told me, I don’t know. So, few times when we go to rest, the Christian people. So, Oscar go to the woman, say give me something warm. She come to look at me, say, what? She don’t need nothing. She’s not more in life. She is dead. But Oscar said, please give me. And somewhere I come to myself. That was the reaction, because I was sure that nobody survive, not from my family, not from Oscar’s family. Not from my other, grandparents, grandmother what I loved dearly. And we come to Krakow, and of course we cannot come to our house. And I don’t want to come. A friend from Oscar give us a place, a bed in his apartment that was two rooms, kitchen, I think there was not even bathroom. So in one room was a group people, survivors from Auschwitz and we have only one bed. Not to eat, not money. So, I go very often to the village from Oscar and the woman give me a bread, you know and some food. That was our food, because Oscar, just after Liberation he have a car accident and he broke hand and foot. He cannot working. He was in hospital and he was in [INAUDIBLE] now. And then my father come from – the first time, the first thing when I come to Krakow, I go to our house meister and I said….He was very happy to see me and I said to him, look, I am alive, but we have a big family in Belgium, in London, in United States. I am sure that somebody will ask from us. And he ask me, and when I bring you a news from your father? So, I said, look, I am not the same Mrs. Fryda before the war. I have nothing. I have even, we have not place to sleep. He said, I give you. He give that what from our furniture. [LAUGH] But doesn’t matter. I cannot give you nothing, but I can give you a kiss, a hug. But that was terrible to give him a kiss, a hug. He was dirty. He was stinking with cigarettes. He was stinking with vodka. And then we give also our name and where we stay in Poland in Jewish community. It was a Jewish. One come. The house meister said, I have something. That was a card from my father from Auschwitz. The card I give and the uniform I give to [INAUDIBLE] in Orlando. Because we visit a friend and we come in connection with a woman, Mrs. Weiss, what is very engaged in this. So I give, after while, after while I couldn’t give this. I couldn’t lose this, but when we die, that go to the garbage. So I give this in order. That I give and I give the card and something else that I give. That is in Orlando.

DONAHUE: So this house meister, was he living in the same house that you had lived in, that your family had lived in?

HABER: Of course. Before the war he was the house meister. He was cleaning the house and he was also a carpenter. So he was busy in the shop for my father.

DONAHUE: Did you, was there, did you think of trying to get the house back from him?

HABER: No. Is not finished. Every time they look for something else, it is very difficult. I was in Krakow twice, but not till now, I have not back. And I don’t want to see.

DONAHUE: So he brought you a postcard that came from your father.

HABER: And my husband go to take him. And he brought a man, I wish I would take a picture. He was, he was not a human being. He looked terrible and he was sick. He had asthma, terrible. But of course, he was with us and Oscar was a wonderful son to him. And he comes, but he did not stay alive long, because he was very sick.

DONAHUE: How was your health at that point? Were you able to have enough, were you, did you have enough nutrition while you were in hiding?

HABER: That [INAUDIBLE] when was by the Muschau…

DONAHUE: Towards the end of the war had you had enough to eat before…?

HABER: Never enough, never enough. But we was, you was not thinking of food. You were thinking of life. That was important. How, how was terrible. We have the possibility to war, we have not lies. We was in danger every second. We must think every second of our life and that was the difference between us and the people in concentration camp. Because they was not thinking. They think for them. You know? And we was clean, without lice. That was the advantage. But the statistics show that only little percent of people of Christian papers survive because that was very, very difficult. The last months before Liberation I want to suicide. I couldn’t more, I couldn’t more. And I said to Oscar, let me do it. I cannot and I don’t want. I have not energy. I have not mental. I cannot take more. So, Oscar said, another day, another day. When we are so far and we hear that the Russian come. So, thanks to him I am alive. Because I couldn’t take more.

DONAHUE: And after the war did your, were you feeling more hopeful or were you still very depressed?

HABER: I was very depressed. First I didn’t know nothing about my family and then my father – and about my brother, he was together with Oscar brothers, two brothers. And they come and they said and they didn’t say to me that he is not alive. I was, always I have the illusion that he is alive. But then I didn’t ask. I knew that he is not alive because he didn’t come. And that’s very, maybe ten, twenty, I don’t know – when we come to United States, about twenty years before I ask my brother-in-law, which is also my brother, so that is wonderful. So, he – I have energy to ask what is happen. I show you the picture. And I lost my grandparents and I lost my aunt and I lost my cousins. The only cousin what I have now, that is first cousin, her father and my father was brothers. But she was never in Poland, she was born in Belgium. She’s hundred year and six months. A wonderful person. The brain is wonderful, but she is very sick. But she have memory. I also have picture when it was on the day we go to New York. And she have also nobody from the first generation. She was from Himmelblau and I am Himmelblau. And I have a cousin in Elat[INAUDIBLE] that is from other side. He survive also in the terrible concentration camp. That is enough.

END OF TAPE 20.U.10a, FRYDA HABER, SIDE B

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.10b, FRYDA HABER, SIDE A

ARWEN DONAHUE: Okay, this is tape number two, side A of an interview with Fryda Haber. And how long did you stay in Krakow after the war?

FRYDA HABER: We stay one year in Krakow after the Liberation. We was one year in Krakow. We try to go to our, to Oscar brother, but I say our brother, with my father, to them, because there was liberation in Germany. Of course, temporary, because one of the brother was in Krakow after Liberation and he said that we are poor and we have even not enough to eat. So, we try to go, you know, not legal, but we didn’t succeed. In the meantime one of my brother, of my father brother from New York, wonderful man, very, very rich. But that was not the reason that he help. He help because he want to help. And he come in connection with us and then he sent to us, for my father, clothes and he give us from our disposition, money by one man in Krakow. So, we use this, we bought a passport, Polish passport and a visa to Costa Rica, but we want to go to Belgium. And we pay in this time, one passport was five hundred dollar. That was a lot, a lot of money. So we took a thousand five hundred dollar and we come legal to Belgium. In Belgium, of course we don’t want to go to Costa Rica, so we was displaced person, so we have temporary permission to stay. In the beginning we go to the police every three months and our house [INAUDIBLE], our identity was d[INAUDIBLE] émigré. That mean you must, you must left Belgium. Then was every six months and the uncle give us, in Belgium, every month money, that Oscar didn’t work, because he didn’t, should work. He had not permission. But he was a very straight man and he was, you know he don’t want that we are in danger again. But we took for a little time and then Oscar open, not legal, a little practice and he start to make money. Not legal, of course. And we are to uncle, thank you, that is against what you want, but we cannot take money from you more. He want that we come to United State. He sent already ticket and he promise to pay for Oscar’s studies, you know, that he can here make studies again. And our stay here with apartment, with food, with everything. In this time, our Israel come and Oscar said, you know, we’ll go to our country, because we Jewish belong to Israel. He was very happy. In Belgium born my son. He was two years when we go to Israel. Of course, he was very, very happy. Oscar had a wonderful practice and he was with the President of dental association. Had a wonderful time. And our son, we sent our son to New York to study hotel business and he fell in love United State. And he married in Israel and my grandson was born in Israel, one year he was when they go here. And then he have another child, a child which is my granddaughter. But after a few years, he divorced, he get divorced, which was by the mom. And then for me special that was a tragedy to see my children by divorce parents. But what I can do? But we come before they was divorced. We come, seven or six times in the year we come to the United States, visit the family. I love children. I am crazy about children. So we decided to move to Israel, from Israel here. It was very, very difficult to decide this, because we was very happy there, but you cannot have everything in your life. So we chose to be with family. So we are here.

DONAHUE: When you first moved to Israel, had you, did you, had you had dreams of living in Israel before?

HABER: Me? Never. Oscar, yes. Never.

DONAHUE: So, as a child you weren’t involved in any Zionist organizations?

HABER: No in any organization, no. That was forbid in my house. I grow up in discipline and they give me my education, but not for my father, the Palestine and the Kibbutz. That was a synonym, what is that in English?

DONAHUE: Synonym.

HABER: Synonym from disaster. The young was together with [INAUDIBLE]. And he was anti-Zionist. Not Zionist. He was really a Jewish. His religion was Moses’ religion, but he was a Pole. And I was also.

DONAHUE: So a Pole first, a Jew second would you say?

HABER: Pardon?

DONAHUE: A Pole first and a Jew second would you say?

HABER: No, Jewish first, but my nationality was Polish. Yes.

DONAHUE: You mentioned earlier on that you were, that before the war you were a Polish Patriot. Did you have any of those feelings after the war? Patriotism for Poland?

HABER: I was. I cannot say patriotism, but somehow I am very close to Poland, especially to Krakow, because that was my young years and I have my education. And even that I speak other languages, but no language is, of course, so perfect and so, like Polish. And we talk till now Polish, Polish between us. And our son was born in Belgium and he speak also Polish. Not so good, but he speak. So, I am very close to Poland, to Krakow especially. But not in this area what I stay because that was a Jewish area. Because I was twice in Krakow and I was twice in our house, but I cannot do it, I cannot do it.

DONAHUE: Was it painful to stay in Poland after the war?

HABER: No, only when I come in the Jewish [INAUDIBLE] what I stay and I saw my house and the neighbors and everything, that I know everybody for name. I was young, it was not my society, but I know that was the picture every minute of my life. But then I go in another part of Krakow what I was in school and this I was in life. I was happy. And I understand all the walk, and I can go. I don’t need a car. You know? I was independent because I am not a driver. So that is very difficult for Oscar and for me. But I was afraid. Not for me, but that I kill somebody, so I couldn’t learn. So, yes. I like Krakow. Krakow is a wonderful town. It is one of the six most beautiful places in the world.

DONAHUE: What are the other five?

HABER: Pardon?

DONAHUE: What are the other five in your opinion?

HABER: I don’t know. I don’t know. Was before two years, was twelve places. We was in twelve places. Now Oscar read somewhere, he is reading a lot. I cannot read a lot. First I have not time, you will be surprised. And then I am not patient to read, so I prefer to watch T.V.. Now we have Polish T.V. with Polish language, Polish theater, what is wonderful. And I understand every word. When I look of the, in English language, of course I don’t understand. I can understand because I know the meaning is, but Polish is my mother language.

DONAHUE: When did you, when was the first time that you returned to Poland for a visit?

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: When?

HABER: When? That was five years ago. And we stay in Krakow, of course. We have now new friends, Polish friends in Krakow, too. But we stay in the hotel. I don’t like to be, to be by somebody. I want my privacy and I want give them privacy. But we are invited. We visit the place and Oscar place. And we visit another place with the family. The first time Muschau(SP) was alive, but the second time he was not more alive. And his wife passed away before, so he was always at the cemetery.

DONAHUE: Can you describe more about your visit? How did you feel to be there in Krakow?

HABER: I told you, I was happy, but not in my [INAUDIBLE]. I was happy in another [INAUDIBLE] I visit all things what are beautiful. I was free. I was free so far that I can go. I know that my language is – I have not complex that my English is bad, but my Polish is wonderful. And once I mastered this, of course nobody was thinking that we are Jewish. We stay once waiting for the electric next to my field of my area. And I know exactly what was and wasn’t. It was not his. I said to Oscar, of course of Polish, you know what is it. So, stay a woman. You don’t know. I said, no, I am not from Krakow. That was the lie what I often used. You know he was, here was a Jewish area. And they are gone and I am very sorry for the Jewish people, but my husband is so happy, that they killed the Jewish people. To my [INAUDIBLE] the electric come and I don’t want to discuss with her. So, that was their opinion, she regret and he was happy.

DONAHUE: Did you tell anyone that you were Jewish?

HABER: Where? In Krakow after the war? No, for what reason? Only the friends know that we are Jewish. But why I should say? I go by, I visit the cemetery, the Jewish, what I look after the monument, what we give to our family on the place, on my grandfather, who laid before. They destroyed the cemetery. They destroy it. The first time after the war, we are looking and we find. And we make a nice monument. And for the, and we make for the parents, my grandparents. And we didn’t find the monument, so I go to the Jewish committee in Krakow. And he said, first he was so happy to see me. He didn’t know me, but I say Himmelblau and that was a nice man, name, a nice family. You are Himmelblau. He couldn’t….He was so happy, the man. I said how come we make a monument and it is not….Oh look, fifty years, that can be damaged from themselves. And other people come and make another this, so don’t be disappointed. He was in the Jewish committee, too. He was in the Jewish area, of course. In the big synagogue, old synagogue is this museum. It is old synagogue. What is still now operated. We went to Saturday praying, but orthodox, that what we are used. And then I don’t come back to the area. What, when, when we go to Krakow once, I will go again to my house and I go to the cemetery to look again, because that will be the last time. But I don’t know when we are going. Oscar is not so good, so I don’t know what we can do this.

DONAHUE: About your years in Israel -

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: Will you describe your life there a little bit? Just who were your friends and what did you do with your time?

HABER: What I do? Oh, I was terrible busy. First we have lot of friends in Israel, from Belgium, from Krakow, then but I have not time to them. Never I have time. I help my husband. Most of the time I was without help, so we have practice, the first floor, second floor and the sixth floor was our apartment. I don’t want a house. I want to be with people. So, I clean the clinic and the instrument and everything. I help my husband. And then I go, I clean my house. I was working, volunteering in baby home, three times in the week, what my friend criticized me very much. We come, cafe, we are talking. Say, no, I prefer to clean the little babies. And then I said, you have occasion to talk about me when I am not here, because I don’t like this, this…

DONAHUE: Gossip?

HABER: I detest this. So, I was busy. I was busy. And then we have a wonderful social life, wonderful. And we have subscription to concert, to theater. Even that I didn’t understand every word, Hebrew, but was English everywhere. And Oscar was by me. It was wonderful to be there.

DONAHUE: Were most of your friends Holocaust survivors also?

HABER: Yes, oh yes. Different way, but mostly in concentration camp, mostly. Only one friend what I knew from Krakow. She was my neighbor, but we was not friends. It was Hi, Hi, speaking, but now when I come to Israel we get very, very good friends. She is already grand, grandmother. And we in touch of course. Everybody sorry that we are not there.

DONAHUE: Did you talk often about the wartime years, about your past with your friends?

HABER: I avoid, I avoid to talk about this.

DONAHUE: And your friends too, did they avoid the subject?

HABER: Some friends what survive, they like to come back, but not me. I don’t like to come back.

DONAHUE: But was it important to you to have friends who were also Holocaust survivors?

HABER: Of course, of course. We love people and we make, we meet so many different people in our life. So many, some very, very nice people, older and younger, of course. We have, always we have a rich social life, always, always.

DONAHUE: Tell me if you think this is true. I’ve heard that there was some discrimination against Holocaust survivors in Israel, that they were looked down upon by people who had been in Palestine from before the war.

HABER: I will tell you, that is difficult to judge the people, because I ask, we ask….I ask myself, why I survive? When six million Jewish people, including me, should be killed, why I am alive? Why? Who can give me the answer? Thanks God and good Polish people, they help us. But I ask why? And I will tell you another things, sometimes I don’t believe myself that I pass through this, so how you can believe or you can be in my situation? Nobody can be in my situation, in our situation. Because that what I told you now, that is one second in my life, because every second was in danger, every second was a bitter, a bitter war for us. It was terrible. Every second. Not every minute, every second. Especially the people was worse off than Christian paper, because you must be thinking every second [INAUDIBLE] from the sister, from the Muschau there was a boy, very talented. He was prepared to be a priest, but he was an anti-Semite. When he knew that we are Jewish, he will kill, not only kill, he will cut us and give….Terrible. And that was a priest. He was a priest. Yes, he died, probably when he was sixty year old. But still he ask for some paper, that the parents help us. He have from [INAUDIBLE]. But the parents were wonderful, but they didn’t know that we are Jewish. He didn’t know, also. But the parents was very wonderful people, they never said nothing about the Jewish. They didn’t know that we are Jewish. God forbid. But he, he don’t know, but he was a terrible anti-Semite, terrible.

DONAHUE: Did [INAUDIBLE] ever give any kind of recognition to the…?

HABER: Oh yes, oh yes, to the Muschau, of course and to him. Because he ask and the parents was wonderful people and we have the minimal food by them, the minimum, but they was wonderful people. But we didn’t pay them nothing, because we had no money. He was keep us, because Oscar was officer in underground army and they were patriot Polish, of course, so they help him and me.

DONAHUE: When you lived in Israel, were you, do you remember events like the 1967 war? Did those, did that event have a significant effect on you?

HABER: Of course, because my son was on the tours in the Yom Kippur and the Seven Days, so you can imagine. Of course. But I didn’t make panic, I lost only, I think seven kilo in one week, because I have not news from my son. But I can keep my nerves. I can control me, I can control me. I learned this. Before the war I was not so. I was strong and I was lot of feeling to people and to people, not is English, is German. They need, you know? Always. But my reaction was different. I was strong. Now I am not strong no more.

DONAHUE: Did you have a strong sympathy with the Israeli cause and did you believe….? You know there was this whole conflict with them being within the Arab area.

HABER: Look, no, we are old people. I will die. But you will be. Never, even that they make peace, that never will be peace. Cannot be, because each other, they test each other. And the Arab have a different mentality that, even that is same race. Is Semite. Arab and Jewish is the Semite race. Never, never will be peace and always will be victim. I am sorry to tell this, but that is the truth. They will give another piece of land, another piece of land. Doesn’t help. Because they make a mistake from the beginning. They shouldn’t give up nothing.

DONAHUE: The Israelis?

HABER: Yes, yes. I am not a political, but that what I saw and that what I hear and that what my husband talk to me, because he watch the T.V., the news and he read a lot. So, we discuss what he told me. And that is not only my opinion, that is opinion….how is it in English? Quite all the people in Israel think the same way what we think. But they want the Peace. They want that the children don’t go to war, but doesn’t help, doesn’t help.

DONAHUE: Do you have any sympathy for the Arab, for the Palestinian people?

HABER: I cannot say that I have or I not have. I don’t know the people, but I was always afraid. The first day when I come to Israel and I saw the Arabs, I was afraid for them. I was afraid, yes. I think in my opinion, everybody done nothing [INAUDIBLE] in nationality. They are human being. They have sister and brothers and parents and grandparents. And when they lost somebody they are suffering the same way. But how you can expect to have peace in the world when such a little society like is family, you have not peace, too? That is difficult. That is not possible in my opinion. I wish, but it is not possible. That is my opinion. Maybe I am pessimist, but I think that I am realist. [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: When did you start speaking about your past to other people?

HABER: I think, first time here in the United State. From the beginning, television come to us and they want interview and I don’t want to talk to them and I didn’t. I didn’t. But you know, maybe people should know about this, our experience. But the young people are different. They don’t want to hear such things. And it is also difficult to believe that human being can pass something. I read now, Krakow, ghetto Krakow – I was not, we was not in ghetto, thanks God. It was a miracle that some from the people survive. And I knew from people that they was and they told us. It is unbelievable. That is a book from synagogue they give me for time to read this…

END OF TAPE 20.U.10b, FRYDA HABER, SIDE A

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BEGINNING OF TAPE 20.U.10b, FRYDA HABER, SIDE B

DONAHUE: Did you, do you ever speak to school groups or publicly?

HABER: I never speak. No, no, no. I never speak because I am not a, a, you know I don’t like to be in public eyes. But my husband spoke. No, no, I not speak. I like to be in the corner where nobody see me and nobody hear me. [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: So the first, was the, when the Spielberg Foundation, the Survivors of the Shoah Foundation came, was that the first time you had told your story in detail?

HABER: Yes, yes. With the picture of course. You saw this?

DONAHUE: Yes. What about to your son? Had he asked you about your history and had you told him much about it?

HABER: Not too much and I will tell you why, because he don’t want that we come back all this time. But of course, he saw the movie. Also the grandchildren, I don’t talk too much, because I don’t want myself come back. But sometimes I’ve explained because I am afraid and of course that is a complex that I have. So I said, look, you must understand what we passed away. In our age we have not so much patience and we cannot do many things what maybe people in our age can do, but we cannot do them. We cannot do them. No, I take everything very serious and I am suffering. When my grandson is sick, I am suffering with him together and when it is possible that I can take his illness, I will take it. Why should they, they should know everything about us? It is not necessary. They should, but I want to save my children. [INAUDIBLE] [LAUGHS] Jewish mother and grandmother, too.

DONAHUE: Is it, trying to think of how to say this, but is it very difficult for you to talk about it? Do you have bad dreams afterwards?

HABER: Oh yes. Not long before, I was dreaming that I am in Krakow and it was progroms. And I go with Oscar on the street and they take the people, the Jewish people. And we was also Jewish, but they didn’t take us, because we don’t look Jewish. So, in my dream I was very afraid because can happen in every second and then when it was over, I was feeling good that I am not looking right. And that help us a lot, everywhere. We come once from Israel, when we was….We go to Krakow with a Polish line, lot. And of course, people are speaking, speaking. We was in another room, because when you go to Israel there is another room for security reasons. So, we talk with the Polish people, we become friendly. And then in the lobby, so I see you in the church, Sunday. Of course, I come to the church! [LAUGHS]

DONAHUE: How has your….What year did you come to the United States?

HABER: When I come?

DONAHUE: Yes.

HABER: About twenty years ago.

DONAHUE: Around 1980. And are you a citizen of the U.S.?

HABER: Oh yes. I have been for a long time, of course.

DONAHUE: Do you take an active participation or an active interest in your citizenship?

HABER: No, I told you. I am not the person. No, I am not. Oscar is, but I am not. I want to be in the crowd.

DONAHUE: You mentioned that you, well let me go back to something else. Will you describe how your experiences have been here in Kentucky? You mentioned that you came to join your son, originally. Have you felt welcomed here by the community?

HABER: I was not welcomed, not at all. Now when the people come here they have aid, they aid them. We didn’t need the aid, we need moral aid. Nobody ask us what we are doing, how we are doing. No. No. And Oscar from the first minute go to the synagogue. No, no, nobody was interested what we are doing, how we are doing.

DONAHUE: You mentioned that you have some wonderful friends here, who aren’t Jewish.

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: And I don’t think that we got any of that on tape. But how did you meet these friends?

HABER: Different way, different way. The Polish people we met from each other, you know, they invite us or we have another Polish, another Polish people. One American, we used to have a duplex somewhere and we have a tenant. And he, he is like our son. He finish the Army and he come here with the family to study computer. So, he was our neighbor and our tenant and we come very, very friendly. In the meantime, they go from the duplex and we come here, because was stairs. And I couldn’t take more, so we sold the duplex and we bought this. Until now we are wonderful friends. Wonderful people, wonderful people. And another American, Oscar met in Temple, was something, a lecture, so he met her. And then she met me and was wonderful friend. They are willing to help us twenty-four hours. What sometimes I used her, because she is not working. Young people. And I must go to hospital or something I need. She was always with us, wonderful person. Her husband, too. They have not children, so she have more time than other people, because everybody is ready to help, but I know that she have more time. And she is doing it.

DONAHUE: Do your friends here ask you about your past, about your Holocaust history?

HABER: Yes, of course. But maybe sometimes by occasion when you are talking. Like you are speaking in society, so sometimes Oscar or me, I said, you know that was like this or that was like this. But general they don’t ask. They don’t want to, to, that we come back to our….They admire us and they say that is God’s blessing that after everything what we passed, we keep our humor and we keep our look, you know? Oscar and me, when we go out we are always dressed, because that is the tradition. We cannot go like here the woman…[LAUGHS] I cannot understand. Not everybody. And we, half year, I have dinner for twelve people. Now I cannot do it. The most people what I can have, that is two couple and we, that is six people together. I cannot do more. And that is difficult, but I have done because they invite me, so I cannot go to somebody and not invite to me. But we try to be in good humor and not to talk about past, because that is not pleasure to nobody, nobody. How you survive when you hear so much bitterness and this, how you survive? How you survive to hear about people?

DONAHUE: How do I personally?

HABER: Um Hmm.

DONAHUE: Good question. [LAUGHTER]

HABER: Excuse me. Very difficult to answer.

DONAHUE: It is difficult, sometimes I have nightmares, too. Yeah. I think that in some ways – but I think that it is important for people who have led a life of privilege, as I have, even though I was not rich, to understand the possibility of what can happen.

HABER: You can understand everything?

DONAHUE: I cannot understand.

HABER: You believe?

DONAHUE: I cannot understand. No. But I can understand that there is a possibility that everything that I have could be taken away. I think, you know, that through history there have been tragedies and people who didn’t deserve, deserve it, suffered. So I, it’s not easy, but I feel like it is important for people who want to involve, to be aware of this.

HABER: When you here this Spielberg, this one, she ask me what message I have to people. Do you remember what I said? Do you remember?

DONAHUE: I don’t remember verbatim, but you were saying…

HABER: I will repeat to you, I said that people should be happy that they are in good health and they have what to eat, because in the same time what I am talking to you, are people starving from hunger, from disease, yes? And that don’t mean that people cannot shoot to fight for a nicer life and a better life, but not to be unhappy because that they have, that they have not this, because people are suffering every second in our life, another people. So be happy with that what you have. That was my message.

DONAHUE: It’s an important message.

HABER: I think that is very important. We have friends, not Jewish friends, Polish friends [INAUDIBLE] German. People what are good financially. They always complain. And we when we go to doctor, when we have this and this, we don’t tell nobody. We don’t tell nobody, maybe after, you know? We don’t want to people say such things. And it is easy for us to live this way.

DONAHUE: So, I guess you could say that there is something, tell me if this is wrong,

but that there is something positive that you have learned from the experience?

HABER: No, no, no. I will tell you why. I come from a good situat… home, not millionaires, no. But, from the perspective, in this time when I was child, I stood and I didn’t realize this. My parents give me a very good education, even that was not my direction. I want to be a teacher, but for the Jewish people to be a teacher, they don’t give you work – that what my father told me – not in the big town or in the little this. And was danger and mostly teacher was sick and [INAUDIBLE] clothes. And I want to study something else and my father didn’t ask me what I want to study. They send me to the Commerce academy and I finish. And I was working. I was secretary in three languages, Polish, German, French. But that was not what I want. Then, that was my, our life still at home. When I was in the elementary school I must to show that every page, this writing, not that I lost page. You know? Little things. Respect to the parents hundred and one percent. We are eating together and must we eat everything what you take on your plate. You must eat, not to waste like here, the young people and old people. You go to restaurant, you know, my heart be broken. But I know that so much people now are hungry. Even in Lexington. They waste. I cannot waste the electric. I cannot waste nothing. Even that I like to be nice dress, I like nice this, but I care about the things. You know? So, the war doesn’t nothing, maybe one of the things what I think, that I survive because I could do it, everything what the time give me. It was difficult, it was hunger, it was not comfort. I survive, because I was not spoiled with this. I save bread. I don’t waste food, not because I was hunger, because I was, I grow in this atmosphere. I didn’t learn nothing from it, my lifestyle, absolutely nothing. But I like nice things, I like lots of stuff. I should be born with millionaire home, but I have three millionaire in my family, two uncles and cousin, they was millionaire. But I am also millionaire because I am together with my husband. And so long as we are together, we are millionaires. I am a millionaire.

DONAHUE: Another question, we have a little bit more time. You mentioned something earlier about how you don’t think that anyone anywhere in the world is safe.

HABER: Yes.

DONAHUE: Can you say more about that?

HABER: What I can say? When I hear, when I open the T.V., I see that one member of family killed another. The father kill the wife. The children kill the mother. Then they go to school.

DONAHUE: Oh, you were saying something about the state of the world and whether people, whether people are really safe, whether anyone can really think…

HABER: That is true, everybody…

DONAHUE: But do you feel, have you ever felt, I imagine that means that you’ve never really felt safe yourself from something like this happening again?

HABER: I am not thinking about it. What again the Holocaust?

DONAHUE: Uh huh.

HABER: Oh yes, I am afraid for my children, for my family. Of course I am afraid. Of course I am afraid. Not for me, my life is limited. I am already eighty-five years old, so what I can expect? I hope not to live so long that I [INAUDIBLE]. No. God forbid. But I think that everybody with open eyes knew about it. That is not a secret, how is the world.

DONAHUE: And yet we live in a culture where people are very, maybe not thinking so much about those issues or the potential dangers because we in the United States tend to be so sheltered from war and so forth.

HABER: Look people, young people especially shouldn’t think like this because all the future is for them. That is my opinion and my experience, you know. But young people must think positive and to go to studies and to work and to make the life. Of course. Even we in all our circumstances what we are now and in the past. We try to be life and to be active. So long as our brain that is working and our body permit us to do, so we are doing. Life, it is a French sentence, la vie [INAUDIBLE]. Life goes on, also for us. But I am afraid, I am afraid for the next generation and for of course, for my children first and my grandchildren. But I cannot save them. I cannot save them.

DONAHUE: Can you say just a little bit more about your life here in Kentucky? Have you experienced any anti-Semitism here?

HABER: No. Personally, no. Of course not. Nobody know that I am, I have not here my…

DONAHUE: Arm band?

HABER: Arm band. And my face is not. People are very, very sweet and very, very kind and I like the people in Lexington and I like Lexington. Of course. No, I didn’t hear. In T.V. I hear, but personal, no. On contrary, I like the people. I like the people.

DONAHUE: Do you have any – hold on a second. And I’m interested in, you were talking about how the Jewish community here has been less than embracing of you. Do you have any ideas of why it is that the, that the Americans or the Poles, the non-Jewish Poles have been more welcoming to you in Lexington than the Jews?

HABER: Yes, yes. Yes. Because we have the same culture, the same tradition and the same language. You know my husband speak better English better than me, but that is not how he can express in Polish or in Hebrew or in German. My husband, too. Of course. Of course.

DONAHUE: Even though you are Jewish, you feel like that cultural ties…

HABER: But look who is speaking about religion. Religion is personally things that is not body business. Whether I go to church or I go to synagogue, doesn’t matter. For us the people the character, the behavior, that is for us, but religion, that is everybody personally things. Like one time was sex, but now sex is also not – now they are speaking like, like. I know about flower. In my time, sex was a secret and nobody was interested to talk about it. Now it is different. So people speak about everything. They speak about, but my religion is not important by my friends or my relationship. Not at all. Never was. Never was.

DONAHUE: So you don’t….Some people think of Judaism as more of a culture or a tradition than a religion. Even some people I’ve interviewed. But you don’t think that?

HABER: Look are different people. I cannot speak for another people, but I…

DONAHUE: For yourself?

HABER: For myself, of course.

DONAHUE: Is there anything else you would like to say?

HABER: I don’t know. I can finish now, but when you want I talk. It is up to you. When you have some question, please ask me.

DONAHUE: I think I’ve come to a satisfactory close. [LAUGHTER]

HABER: Okay.

DONAHUE: Thank you very much for…

HABER: Don’t mention. I think that the next generation, if they will hear this, they will understand me. But I doubt about it, doubt about it. Because that is like we are reading history that is so far from us. When I was in school, I was so happy that I am not living in this time from the wars, you know? And then come time that I pass through the terrible war. Who knows? Who knows? And the young people, maybe they are right. They don’t want hear sad things. Because life can be very nice and can be very terrible and everybody have problem, young and old, rich and poor, everybody have they problem. But take from life the best what you can, that is my advice.

DONAHUE: Thank you very much.

HABER: Don’t mention it. I cannot say that it was a pleasure. [LAUGHS]

END OF TAPE 20.U.10b, FRYDA HABER, SIDE B

END OF INTERVIEW

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