Oral History Interview with David Ellis

ETHEL WIHITE: This is a conversation with David Ellis, we are at my house at 600 Sunset Road, in Louisville Kentucky. It is December 6, 2000; my name is Ethel White. Let’s start at the beginning. Can you first talk about where you were born and when? Where were you born?

DAVID ELLIS: I was born October 23, 1912, at 1030 Clay St., Shelbyville, Kentucky.

WHITE: And can you tell us a little bit about your family?

ELLIS: Yes, my daddy, my dad had, was working for Mrs. Armstrong. She was a widow of an insurance company man in Shelbyville named Armstrong. And my daddy was a chauffeur for her 1:00in the horse and buggy days. (Phone rings) WHITE: That’s ok. We’ll just let the phone ring.

ELLIS: When he, in those days, he would drive Mrs. Armstrong to M and M’s in New Castle, in a horse and buggy. Leave the horse in a Livery stable, you know, like you’d put your car; he’d put the horse in ( ), and take them somewhere the next day. He worked for them for fifty years.

WHITE: And what about your mother?

ELLIS: My mother, was Lula Linton.

WHITE: And what was your father’s name?

ELLIS: Rastus, we called him Ras.

WHITE: Now what did you mother do?

ELLIS: Well, my mother worked with him at the Armstrong’s. She was a cook at the Armstrong’s.

WHITE: Now did 2:00you grow up in Shelbyville?

ELLIS: Oh, yes. I grew up in Shelbyville. This was about five blocks from where my daddy worked, 1030 Clay Street. in Shelbyville. Where I was born and raised.

WHITE: So your family lived down the street from the Armstrong’s?

ELLIS: No, the Armstrong’s was on Main Street. We were on Clay Street.

WHITE: But you didn’t live on their …Live with them?.

ELLIS: No, not on their place, that comes up later. ( ) The lady I worked for was Mrs. Armstrong’s daughter, her oldest daughter, Elizabeth McCouch. Elizabeth Armstrong was her maiden name.

WHITE: Now why don’t you talk about how that developed, and how you got from there to the next place?

ELLIS: Alright. I will. Mr. Armstrong had a big farm called “Moxley.” Henry Moxley was Mrs. Armstrong’s brother. 3:00And he ran this farm on the old Fitzville Road, and had riding horses. And then Mrs. Armstrong had a sister named Mrs. Harry Luce, lived in New York; married to a millionaire in New York, Harry Luce. They would come down in the summer. Instead of going down to Florida, they’d come to the farm. That’s where I met them. And then Mr. Armstrong--Mr. Luce and his wife would come down and would have parties. I started, when I was about eighteen I started working out there on the farm in the summer, helping them serve parties. They had a lot of parties. They had children—had 4:00the grandchildren The grandchildren, I helped them to get up on the ponies and all. And I’d lead them around until they got ( ). Her oldest daughter, Mrs. Elizabeth McCouch, well she married a lawyer in the largest law firm in Philadelphia. And the name of the firm was Drinker, Biddle, and McCouch. And Mr. McCouch was the fella that married Mrs. Armstrong’s daughter. She had a brother whose name was Henry Moxley, Mrs. Armstrong’s brother. Henry Moxley. So they did a lot of entertaining all the time out there. Especially in the summer when the Luce’s were down there from New 5:00York. All kind of partying. As a—as a not quite a teenager, almost a teenager; I’d have to go out there and help my Daddy and mother cook with the parties. That’s how I got started in doing party work.

WHITE: And what did you find when you were there with the Armstrong’s? What were the relationships like between you and the Armstrong’s and your family and the Armstrong’s?

ELLIS: Well, the Armstrong’s was Mrs. Armstrong’s oldest daughter, the lady I worked for in (…).

WHITE: Right.

ELLIS: All right. When she came, had big wedding, a real big wedding for them out on the farm. She always would tell me that when I got big enough one day, that she wanted me to come and work for her, whenever I got big enough. Because 6:00she was out there, an older woman when I was a youngster, teenager helping them on the parties. And she always told me, “When you get married, I want you to come work for me.” Well, I said, “Yeah, I will”; but I didn’t know…come there, I didn’t ask her where. And she said, ( ). So when I got married, the next time she come to Shelbyville--after she told me that--I got married; and I said, I told her, “I’m married, Miss Elizabeth.” I said, I’m married, you got that job for me?” She said, “I sure have!” I said, “Where is it?” She said, “Philadelphia, that’s where I live.” I ain’t never heard nothing about no Philadelphia in my life. ( ) Shelbyville. “Philadelphia? Where is that?” And she went on to tell me that it’s up toward New York. Well, I always said anything 7:00up toward New York, I want to go see it ‘cause New York was--everybody knows about New York. So her auntie was from New York. ( ) So she said—so what happened she found out I was married she said, “I want you to come work for me in Philadelphia.” I said, I don’t know where … She said, “I’ll see that you get there.” So when she came and found out I was married and made arrangements and when the time—when she got ready for us, she made arrangements for me and my wife to come to Philadelphia on the train. Train. ( ) WHITE: Well now how …?

ELLIS: ( ) WHITE: Go ahead.

ELLIS: I made it. They lived out in Chestnut Hill. So when we got out there, we stayed on the place. She had two daughters. Two daughters. ( ) They was 8:00six and seven years old. And my wife she took care of the two daughters, and I did all of the chauffeuring and I did all--everything else that need to be done, I did it.

WHITE: And, first of all, when you found you were going to Philadelphia, what was your reaction? Were you scared or excited or what?

ELLIS: Well, no, I was excited because see being in Shelbyville, and the only big place I had ever been was Louisville and I had always heard about New York, New York; and then when her sister came down from New York, I knew she was up that-a-way, I was anxious to go see what it was like. So she come with my dad to make arrangements with him for me and my wife to come to Philadelphia. And I like it. And he said, “If I liked 9:00it, he liked it.” And I said, “I keep liking until I see what it is.” I was a dummy. Like everybody else in Shelbyville, I didn’t know about no Philadelphia. ( ) Philadelphia ( ) to me is the best place anybody could go on a vacation to learn something. Downtown Philadelphia, everything, it was the first city that had a street. And the first street, which it’s the oldest in the United States. You know what it is?

WHITE: Is that Elfreths Alley?

ELLIS: Elfreths Alley. That’s right. That’s the oldest street in the United States.

WHITE: So you would go downtown and learn about all this stuff?

ELLIS: From Philadelphia? After I got there.

WHITE: After you got there.

ELLIS: We went there on the train and her daughter that we was going to work for lived on Chestnut Hill on Winston Rd. 10:00You know where Winston Rd. is?

WHITE: Remember I’m from there. (Laughs) ELLIS: You’d have to be to know where Winston Road. is. (Laughs) That’s where they lived. His mother lived over on St. Martin’s Ave. His mother had a big mansion house over there. Mr. McCouch’s mother. And that’s where I’d make trips, back and forth over there. And that’s how I got to Philadelphia. Through that way.

WHITE: And I know some things happened before that which we’ll want to talk about. But what I want to find out right now is what were your relationships like, first with the Armstrong’s, then with the McCouch’s?

ELLIS: Oh, well, my relationships with the Armstrong’s, my daddy used me as a helper. I helped him cut grass, help him to rake leaves, help him to saddle horses, help him to do whatever, clean up the barn. 11:00Anything my daddy had to do, I had to help him. I had a brother too, and he made both of us help him. We’d better get over there ( ) strap. He used to keep a razor strap hanging on the door and ( ) to be there, we’d better be up there. We’d better come back or that razor strap was waiting for us on the door.

WHITE: Did your father or your mother ever say anything about they felt about the Armstrong’s?

ELLIS: Yes, they loved the Armstrong’s and the Armstrong’s loved them. Mrs. Armstrong gave my daddy, Miss White, back in 1912, I was born in an eight-room house with electric lights and a bathroom in Shelbyville. One of few people, black people had. And Mrs. Armstrong gave that to my dad. I ( ) horses. 12:00WHITE: Did you feel the same way about the McCouch’s in Philadelphia?

ELLIS: Now see the McCouch’s, I lived on their place and his mother, Mrs. McCouch was loaded, she was very rich, but he wouldn’t give the Statue of Liberty a nickel to see it.

WHITE: Mr. McCouch?

ELLIS: Yes.

WHITE: Eric?

ELLIS: Yes. He wouldn’t give the Statue of Liberty a nickel to see it, pee on it, or ( ) liquor. That’s how tight he was.

WHITE: Ok. (Laughs) ELLIS: He was tight. But he had to tight because his mother had him on a, what do you call it?

WHITE: An allowance?

ELLIS: Yes, an allowance. You see he was on an allowance, and of course he had to pay us. They were nice to us. We lived the life of Riley. They had two cars and we’d use one car. 13:00They’d go down to Atlantic City. It’s the place down below Atlantic City called Ventnor . The hotel down there. We’d go down there in Ventnor and stay down there a whole week. They’d catch a train in Philadelphia and go on down, then call and tell my wife to pack the girls, see my wife took care of the girls. They were six and seven years old, Jean and Elsie was. She took care of them. I took care of everything else. He told me to get in the car after I got all--loaded in the car and drive on down there. I did. And we’d drive down to Ventnor—to Atlantic City, then to Ventnor. When we got to Ventnor, they were staying in the hotel, and he told me to see one of the waiters to get me a place to stay up in town. One of the waiters got us a place to stay up in town. First place wasn’t that nice. We didn’t 14:00even go to bed, because the bed was all lumpy. It must have been one of those houses where they go in and out and drink. We didn’t stay there. In the meantime, we went on and stayed in. I went to work the next day and got another fella to find me a place. He found us a place on Kentucky Avenue That’s when I found out that in Atlantic City a lot of streets are named after states. Did you know that?

WHITE: Now are you talking about Ventnor or Atlantic City now?

ELLIS: I’m talking about Atlantic City.

WHITE: Okay. Okay.

ELLIS: Ventnor down to Ventnor—that’s the name—we was down to Ventnor in the hotel, but we stayed in Atlantic City. Because the waiter took us up.

WHITE: Well let’s … ELLIS: And then, 15:00well, the girls got up, I got a good education by doing that with the girls. Because they furnished their car to take kids to school and things. In Philadelphia you know how far it is from Chestnut Hill downtown--Middletown, downtown? How far?

WHITE: Well that’s about 30 or 35 minutes.

ELLIS: No, not minutes, how about the mileage?

WHITE: In miles? What is that? About ten miles?

ELLIS: More than that. Eighteen miles. From down, he’s 1429 Water Street. ( ) that’s where he was. My job was, I’d take him to the train every morning to go in town 16:00and come back and pick up the girls and take them to school. And those schools up there are twenty or fifteen miles apart. Spaced so far apart and I’d do it. And after I’d get them place in school, I’d get back; Mrs. McCouch, she was ready to go play bridge or somewhere or other. So I’d have to take her to different places to play bridge. And then when I go back in the evening to pick her up from playing bridge, I’d have to pick up the kids from school. The kid’s school was about twenty miles apart. I can’t think of names though.

WHITE: They didn’t go to Springside?

ELLIS: Could’ve been.

WHITE: But not in Chestnut Hill?

ELLIS: No, it’s out.

WHITE: Shipley, or Baldwin, or Erwin.

ELLIS: But anyway. Time I’d drive in, I’d go to get her, and by the time I’d get her, 17:00it’s time to pick up the kids; then after I’d pick up the kids and get them some and get something else done, it’s time to get Mr. McCouch coming back from down there.

WHITE: But you said you lived the life of Riley.

ELLIS: Oh, I did. I was ( ) riding around. I was seeing all this stuff I’d never seen before. And going to new schools. Oh, yes, shoot!

WHITE: Can we back up just a little bit? We’ve talked about working for the Armstrong’s and working for the McCouch’s but somewhere in-between there you had some military experience.

ELLIS: No, no, no.

WHITE: No? That came later?

ELLIS: All my military came after I was back in Louisville. See we went up.

WHITE: Okay, so what years were these?

ELLIS: The years you talking about was 1937. That’s when we first went to Philadelphia. Nineteen thirty-seven through 18:00 1940.

WHITE: Ok. What happened in 1940?

ELLIS: Nineteen forty? We went back to Kentucky.

WHITE: And why?

ELLIS: We went back to Kentucky in 1940. My daughter was born. See when my daughter was born; my wife had a baby, when she was born, I had to give up my McCouch’s job because my baby needed her mother; and I was just working with different ones with the McCouch’s just to--I didn’t like that, working with the different ones. You know they had to hire different people because when we worked for them, my wife did all the cooking and I did all the servicing and all that.

WHITE: Oh, so you’re wife needed to not be working all the time. Is that what you’re saying?

ELLIS: Yes, she had to quit. Because she had my baby. You see my baby she’s a beauty ain’t she? 19:00WHITE: She is, she is. So you moved back to Kentucky to find other employment?

ELLIS: That’s right.

WHITE: Ok. And what did you find when you got back here?

ELLIS: When I got back to Kentucky, I got back here and found--I worked in--I came on to Louisville. I stopped in Shelbyville for awhile. My brother-in-laws, both of them worked: one of them worked at American Air Filter. He knew some of the big shots at American Air Filter. He lived on Lafon Road.

WHITE: You mean the people who ran it? The executives?

ELLIS: Yes, and my brother-in-law being there and Mr. Tarrant was one of the top lawyers in Kentucky and my other brother-in-law worked for him. The two of them got me a job working for the man who was president of American Air Filter. 20:00WHITE: So you worked in his house?

ELLIS: Yeah. Took care of the house, I did the cooking and everything. Because my wife still wasn’t working because we had the baby.

WHITE: So you worked for the head of American Air Filter?

ELLIS: Yes, he’s one of the heads.

WHITE: An executive.

ELLIS: John Hallstrom was his name. He was one of the heads.

WHITE: All right, where were you living? Were you living with him or in your own house?

ELLIS: I was living where I got drafted from Beecher Terrace. (Laughs) I could’ve been living out there and missed the Army.

WHITE: Alright, why don’t you tell that story because that’s a good one.

ELLIS: Because I was so glad to get out from living out there with them. I moved to town to Beecher Terrace. And Beecher Terrace neighborhood, it was loaded with eighteen, nineteen, twenty, year-old boys. 21:00It was 1940, and I was.

WHITE: Well, you were born in 1912. So you were 28?

ELLIS: Very good, that’s about right.

WHITE: So you were living in Beecher Terrace and there were a lot of eighteen, twenty year-olds. And you were you, you had to register for the draft?

ELLIS: But I didn’t have to register where I did, but I did.

WHITE: Where did you register?

ELLIS: I registered in Indian Hills. Out there off of Lafon Rd. Where my man lived. Because I was staying out there till I got all my stuff moved out of Shelbyville, so I considered that my home. Because he had a bathroom and room on the side of the garage I stayed in, until I got my wife moved down there. And while I was there, I went out and messed up and registered out there.

WHITE: And you need to explain how it was that you messed up 22:00or why that messed it up.

ELLIS: Because I wouldn’t have had to go into the Army if I had registered down on 12th and Water. And they were loaded with eighteen, nineteen year-olds. I was thirty years old.

WHITE: Yes, but you told me, you need to tell for the tape what you told me in the car.

ELLIS: Right.

WHITE: Which was that they were taking even numbers of black and white?

ELLIS: They had to. That’s what the guy told me, because I asked him, “How come you didn’t take us?” These two other fellas out there the same age. I said, “How come you take and you’ve got all these other…?” He said, “You’ve got to have so many colored, so many black, and so many white. You can’t just take all black or all white.” Said, “When we draft, we draft so many colored and so many white. And you fell into, by not having a whole lot of colored out there, you almost got twice.” WHITE: There weren’t enough black people in Indian Hills. Right?

ELLIS: That’s right. That’s something isn’t it? 23:00I told you I some kind of life. Don’t you think, Miss White?

WHITE: I do, that’s why you’re here. Alright, what happened after you registered? How did you end up in the Air Force?

ELLIS: The Air Force. The Army, I didn’t have nothing to do with that. The Army put me in the Air Force.

WHITE: It was the Army-Air Force.

ELLIS: The 20th Air Force. The headquarters was in Tampa. Tampa was nine miles from McDill Field. I got to McDill Field. That’s where I was taken training.

WHITE: Now you need to tell that story too. You promised you could do this twice.

ELLIS: I can.

WHITE: Now what were you being trained for?

ELLIS: At McDill Field? I was engineer for the 20th Air Force. ( 24:00) type of engineers we were we build runways, Quonset huts, electric lines, they had people for everything they need. I helped to build a highway—there’s a highway there in Okinawa on the China Sea. On that highway--I helped to build that highway.

WHITE: On Okinawa?

ELLIS: Yes, there on the China Sea.

WHITE: Oh, we haven’t gotten there yet.

ELLIS: Helped with the highway. I told you that they sent me to the head of equipment. And I learned how to operate what they called the ‘shovel,’ the thing that dips in dirt. We called it a shovel, a power shovel. I operated that. Then I was so good in that. I moved up to, they took me off fixing the highway, 25:00to build Quonset huts and fix the runways. And on that I used the same machine that’s called shovel but you change the--take the shovel part off and put another on, which is called a clam shell’ The clam shell was one you see come down with two things. You seen that?

WHITE: The two sides come together and scoop the dirt up?

ELLIS: Yes, that’s called a clam shell. That’s not the hardest part. The hardest part to operate on that shovel—I told you about that—it was called the dipper stick. That’s clam shell. But you know the hardest one to operate?

WHITE: No.

ELLIS: The drag line.

WHITE: What does that do?

ELLIS: That’s a thing you have on there. It be hanging on. And they take it out there and clean out a ditch. And they drop it and then it’s a thing 26:00will pull it in and bring it up. And that’s called a drag line. And that’s the hardest thing to operate. You know why? Because when you wheeling off on a drum, that cable is going a mile a minute, and if you don’t stop it in the right spot, the cable crosses and if you keep doing that, the cable will break. So you got to be able to stop that inner guide thing, inner guide thing, drum or during the day you’re going to get a broken cable. That’s why I was hard to operate it.

WHITE: So you were trained to do this in Florida?

ELLIS: That’s right, I sure was.

WHITE: And you told me that you got to know the officers because of an office in Tampa. There was McDill, the base and then there was an office downtown.

ELLIS: Yes, the office downtown was for the 3rd Air Force. That was where we were at. 27:00That was the 3rd Air Force’s headquarters/

WHITE: But you were in the 20th Air Force?

ELLIS: Well, 20th, 3rd, it was the same one.

WHITE: How did you get along with the officers?

ELLIS: Same way I get along with your people. They liked me.

WHITE: You.

ELLIS: That’s why I told you I had a major job. I went to Ft. Myers and all them other places because the officers wasn’t allowed to drive. We had to drive the jeep. I got to drive them everything. Other guys didn’t get to do it. They liked me.

WHITE: And you started out as a private. And then you made Sergeant?

ELLIS: Oh, yeah, then made Sergeant.

WHITE: Did you ever think about being an officer?

ELLIS: No more 28:00than what I was doing.

WHITE: You were content?

ELLIS: I was content. I see the other officers had to be tough and rough. And I didn’t want to be like that. You see they bawling some guys out that don’t give a darn. I didn’t want to be in that. I stayed in that in my head, man when I get out I’ll be able to make some money. The pay is good. An operator makes forty some dollars an hour. Operating that stuff.

WHITE: Ok, and we’re going to get to that stuff in a minute. But did you, in the Army was segregated during the second war. Did you feel that particularly?

ELLIS: Oh, yes. We feel it everyday.

WHITE: How’d you feel about it? I mean did you accept it or did it make you mad?

ELLIS: When I got mad about it was when they come and there were some jobs available 29:00that we could do and they’d give it to a white boy. That’s the only thing that hurt us, made us feel bad.

WHITE: But by and large you felt you were treated ok other than that?

ELLIS: Oh, yes, they can’t treat you as a person different because they’d be called on the carpet, but they could get away punishing you for not what you not wanting to do. But not assigning you to jobs, the good jobs. We always got the jobs that nobody else wanted. That’s, my eighty-eight years living on this Earth, that’s what I’ve had to live with. That’s tough. You don’t realize what I’m talking about until you be involved in that. Really. Make you, I get tears in my eyes now sometimes, yeah. When we got unsegregated, we was 30:00on the ship getting ready to come home and we were at Okinawa. I was at Okinawa for about a year. And Truman, unsegregated the army, and they had ships, Miss White, as far as you could see. They were loaded up; they were going to invade Japan. Loaded up for Japan. Okinawa was close to Japan. And when he passed that bill the whistles started blowing on the ships. And I said, “Oh, Lord, they getting ready to invade Japan,” because that’s what we’d been loading for all this time. We thought we were going to go ahead and invade Japan. But they was blowing 31:00… END TAPE ONE SIDE ONE BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO WHITE: So the ships were in the Okinawan harbor? That’s where they were?

ELLIS: Yes.

ELLIS: When got on the ship in a, let’s see?

ELLIS: I got on the boat, a ship in.

WHITE: Did you go to California?

ELLIS: Yeah, yeah. I was in California. When got on the ship to, to, go--let’s see.

WHITE: Let me pause this while we think for a sec.

ELLIS: I got on, took my basic training in Florida at Tampa, McDill Field. When I left McDill Field we went to, what’s the name of the city in Florida now they’re talking about? 32:00WHITE: Miami?

ELLIS: No, not Miami.

WHITE: Palm Beach?

ELLIS: No, it was the capital.

WHITE: Tallahassee?

ELLIS: Tallahassee. We went to Tallahassee and they loaded us on a train, a seventeen-car train, on a Monday and we stayed on that train until Saturday night. From Monday to Saturday night we wound up in Seattle.

WHITE: How was the train ride?

ELLIS: It was long, long. But we’d get off at places and they’d run us around a block for exercise. Because I got off, to show you how dumb I was, I got off, the train went through ( ) Kentucky. And when I saw Kentucky, and that, I felt happy. Because I didn’t realize ( ) Kentucky was almost as far away from ( ) as Florida 33:00was. [Laughs] I was really happy when I saw that. They’d make us jog around a block a few times then we’d get back on that train. And we’re on that train until Saturday night when we got off, and we unloaded in Seattle. That’s where we got on the ships. The kind of ships we went across on was LST.

WHITE: Across the ocean in an LST?

ELLIS: LST.

WHITE: Aren’t the LST’s the landing boats?

ELLIS: That’s right. We had fifteen of them.

WHITE: How many people in an LST?

ELLIS: Huh?

WHITE: How many people in an LST?

ELLIS: I don’t know how many people they had in the Navy.

WHITE: But they’re not very big are they?

ELLIS: Oh, yes, they’re big. The LST we had ( ) ( ), the tanks was--would get about four tanks in there. 34:00And the trucks--because when the LST get there where they’re going—let me show you--they had this big gate come down in front and they’d just pull right out. That’s why they had LST’s. There was fifteen of them. We stayed there and had to load them in Seattle. We were there about seven days loading them ships; we know we was going somewhere big. I told you we were going to invade Japan, but we didn’t know that. We know there was something big coming up—what they we doing.

WHITE: Do you remember what year that was?

ELLIS: That was 1939.

WHITE: Well no, because you, you … ELLIS: Maybe it was 1936.

WHITE: You went into the Army after--you went back to Kentucky in 1940.

ELLIS: Yeah.

WHITE: So you would have gone into the Army right after that.

ELLIS: That’s right.

WHITE: Forty or forty-one. So was this right after the war was over?

ELLIS: No, I got out of the Army in 1946. 35:00WHITE: Okay. Okay. All right, so you’re sent to Okinawa.

ELLIS: All that’s in the 1940s.

WHITE: Right. Okay. I got it.

ELLIS: See I went in, in 1940 and got out in ’46. I was in there for three years. Three years I was in the Army.

WHITE: So you went to Okinawa, and then you said something about building a highway there.

ELLIS: Okinawa we were building--the China Sea—Okinawa is surrounded by it. The Pacific Ocean and the China Sea. The China Sea port is where we saw these big ships. But all along the ocean in Okinawa was these ships. That’s where we was docked. Ships as far as you could see. 36:00I’d ask the officer why there was so many ships. He said, “They’re going to invade Japan.” (whispers) All those ships loaded. They’d have wiped Japan out if they had. You never seen such a mass of ships in your life, Miss White.

WHITE: What did you think about invading Japan?

ELLIS: I thought, “Lord, have mercy. I hope I don’t.” I think about my daughter and my wife. I thought about them, really thought about them Because my daughter she was just three years old. She was six when I got out.

WHITE: And you thought something might happen to you if you invaded Japan?

ELLIS: From three years-old to six I wasn’t with her, I was in the service. See, what 37:00made it hard for us in the service, we in the service were a segregated service. They’d move us around you know, that’s terrible.

WHITE: Now tell me how it was segregated.

ELLIS: Now, the promotions would come up that we were more qualified for, and they’d give them to a white boy.

WHITE: What about the living arrangements and eating arrangements and all that?

ELLIS: Well, we all eating and sleeping together.

WHITE: You all ate and slept together but you got done out of the good jobs?

ELLIS: Yes.

WHITE: Ok, you got out of the Army, and you had been trained as a heavy equipment operator and you were going to look for a job. What happened?

ELLIS: I did. Well, I went in there ( ) WHITE: What happened?

ELLIS: I went in there and they stepped on me ( ). They said, “Oh yeah, that’s good blacks don’t get these jobs.” 38:00And you don’t see no blacks doing it neither.

WHITE: Not for a long time.

ELLIS: That’s right. That was the first thing I applied for. I was so good at it, Miss White. What experience you’ve had with me, anything I do, don’t you think I’m good?

WHITE: You’re good at everything you do.

ELLIS: I tried. I did. I could operate those bulldozers and graters. Man I could tell you. We’d see who could out load a truck to pass us. We’d bet. When we’re on Okinawa we’re on night--we’re on 24-hour shift. On night shift we’d be over there loading them trucks; we’d be on that highway along--that highway along the China Sea: I helped to build that. We building that highway. Getting that coral out of them 39:00mountains. Them mountains are coral. That coral looks like cement that’s been wet and refrozen. That’s what we had to dig in. I used to bet money who could load a truck the fastest. I told them--one of those cranes—only two buckets loaded a truck. That’s how big they were. But see, people say, “Oh, you couldn’t drive those”—little--size didn’t mean a thing, it was skill. It was skill. All the brakes are automatic, automatic they was. Power--power brakes and things you don’t have to have no skill. You have to have skill how to d that. And skill is one thing patting myself on the back, skill is one thing I’m loaded with. (laughs) WHITE: What did you tell your wife when you found there were no jobs for blacks in construction after 40:00you got back?

ELLIS: She told me to keep on looking.

WHITE: But what did you tell her? You had to come home and say, “No jobs.” ELLIS: Oh, yeah yeah. I come home so excited that I know how to operate this stuff. I’d tell them all, bragging and everything. I said, “The first thing I’m going to do, I’m going to the employment office try to get a job doing this.” And they all agreed, Oh what you do go ahead. I did. That’s how I wind up at the distillery being a janitor and a ( ).

WHITE: Now this was where?

ELLIS: Schenley Distilleries. Thirty ...

WHITE: Did that frustrate you?

ELLIS: Yes, it frustrated me. ‘Cause I thought I was going to be able to do what I did good. Of course, any job I did, I did good. But I thought I was going to get one of those high skill paying jobs.

WHITE: So 41:00you didn’t get paid as much for the janitor job?

ELLIS: I was good at my job. It was a good job. I made $250 a week. That was good job. Because I belonged to a union. But I could have made more than that. You see I was anxious to make more because I wanted to get a home. Now you see the little brother-in-law I have there, I bought that house, it was cheap. For seven thousand dollars. That was cheap.

WHITE: Now when did you buy that?

ELLIS: I bought that in 1940. It was cheap. Seven thousand dollars wasn’t no cheap to me because I didn’t even make at least a hundred dollars until just before I got out of the army. 42:00Of course, my wife got that thing card. They got a name they call it—the women receive when their husband’s in the army.

WHITE: It’s not a pension?

ELLIS It’s like a pension but they don’t call it that. It’s another name that they call it. She gets it every month. My wife was the one that was rich when I was in the Army. She got expenses and everything else.

WHITE: Oh, yes, you might mention that, you told me that in the car too. About the promotion when you made Sergeant? You made more money?

ELLIS: Oh, yes, I made $116 a month. The sixteen dollars I could have, I—wasn’t nothing to spend the money for but cigarettes or drink of beer. I’d save my sixteen 43:00dollars and send the hundred dollars to my wife. And she was getting eighty dollars allotment. So back in 1940, $180 was a whole lot of money to be getting.

WHITE: Well now, how long did you stay with Schenley?

ELLIS: Thirty-five years, from 1937 til … WHITE: Nineteen forty-seven? After the Army?

ELLIS: Yes, 1947, after the army.

WHITE: Until 1977? Seventy till ‘eighty-two?

ELLIS: Ok, how many years is that?

WHITE: Thirty-five years.

ELLIS: Yeah.

WHITE: Ah, now, you were doing other things too.

ELLIS: I was waiting tables. That was my lifesaver.

WHITE: When did you start that?

ELLIS: I started waiting tables back before I went into the Army. 44:00First before I went into the Army. ‘Cause see, the type of work I was doing, working for Mr. Hallstrom, he’s the one got me started ‘cause he was president at American Air Filter. And I stayed on the side of his garage right there until I could get out of the projects. And by being there, he said, “Ellis, while you staying here, I’m going to show you how to make some extra money.” I said, “How?” He said, “Come on, I’ll show you how to do a party.” And most people that saw me do a party asked me to do a party for themselves. That’s how I kept so busy. People would see how I would do it, and that I wasn’t drunk like the guests was ;and then they’d hire me. And these other waiters drink up the people’s liquor, and when the party’s almost over they drunker than the other guests. Not me. I still got the same sober head that I had when I came in there. 45:00WHITE: Now David what did you think when you came in, especially in the beginning when you’d work a party and you said you weren’t drunk like the guests were? What did you think of the guests?

ELLIS: The guests?

WHITE: Yeah, as a group. I mean, really.

ELLIS: What I think of the guests, “That’s a poor way of saying I’m having a big time.” That’s the only thing, I think. My brother’s an alcoholic. My brother, I got a brother who’s in a nursing home now, he’s an alcoholic. My sister’s an alcoholic. And I never touched the stuff. The payday that I’d get—at the—where I worked--I’d take that and I drove to Cleveland all the time. My daughter’s out there. When I’d go to Cleveland, I’d take them this whole case of whiskey that I’d saved up. Because they’d party, party, and they couldn’t afford it; and I’d take it and give it to them. 46:00I kept them in plenty of whiskey because a lot of my bosses would give me an extra bottle. I’d give the help in the office a bottle at payday. But just the regular staff out in the distillery didn’t get that. So since I was in the office, I told my boss-man, I said, “Look here,” I said, “I’m passing this whiskey out to the people every payday.” He said, “That’s right, that’s what I do.” And I said, “Well, how come I don’t get none? I don’t get a single bottle and I’m passing it out.” He said, “Oh, you don’t get none?” I said, “Oh, no, I don’t take none. The first bottle I take, I lose my job, said I stole some whiskey.” He said, “Well, take one.” I said, “If I take one and somebody see me, you going to hold up for me? Say 47:00I didn’t do it.” He said, “I sure will.” So I started taking a bottle every month. I was living it, handling it anyways. I said, “It’s a whale of a thing you got me in handling all this whiskey and I can’t even get none of it.” I didn’t want none of it. I never drank none all my life. I brought to my wife. My wife drinks. The people she associated with did. But I’d never did.

WHITE: Now when you went into the business of waiting tables, and you really had your own business.

ELLIS: I did that. The reason I did that, had my own business. See me working for the president of American Air Filter, they had a lot of parties. I met a lot of people. They began to hire me, and I was the one who would get the jobs. So that’s why I would get other guys ‘cause they know I that I could parties. And the guys I’d get; I’d give them a lecture. 48:00I’d tell them, “Now you’ll leave the people’s liquor alone. It’s not your party. You wasn’t invited to the party to do nothing but work. Now I want you all to do that.” And I’d watch them, scrutinize them. That’s why ( ). I ( ) worked on early. You have your own party.

WHITE: Now you said that it saved you, doing that. How did you mean that—waiting tables? You said it saved you.

ELLIS: Because I couldn’t get no jobs doing what I was good to do. I still couldn’t get no jobs operating no heavy equipment.

WHITE: So you really needed to have two jobs to make up for the fact that you couldn’t get the heavy equipment jobs.

ELLIS: That’s right. ( ) ( ). But you know yourself, until here lately, you never seen a black operating this other heavy. All white.

WHITE: How do you feel that you were--once 49:00you went into this business of waiting on tables, bartending and everything, how were you treated in white people’s homes?

ELLIS: I was treated fine, real fine. Just like you folks. Ain’t anybody in the world could treat anybody better than you. Really now, that’s saying a lot. Because I’d show you a bunch of people I’ve served.

WHITE: I think it’s really interesting some of the people you’ve served. Why don’t you name names of some of the people you’ve served?

ELLIS: Well known names? Mrs. Bingham, she was very particular. I was her main man. Mrs. Bingham called me from Florida to tell me, the morning he died. He died about four or five o’clock in the morning.

WHITE: Now this is Mrs. Bingham, Senior?.

ELLIS: Right. My phone rings and I went to the phone and Mrs. Bingham said, “David?”. I said, “Yes, Ma’am.” She said, 50:00“Mr. Bingham passed this morning.” I said, “Oh, lord, Mrs. Bingham, I’m so sorry about that.” She said, “Now I want you to come out here everyday until he’s put away.” I said, “I can’t Mrs. Bingham.” She said, “Why not?” My wife and I were loading our car up to go to Cleveland. So I didn’t do it. Because I was loading and going to Cleveland. So I sent Hodge and Dunbar. I sent Dunbar a lot of parties. Because he was one of the main guys I gave a lot of parties to because he used me a lot himself. And by him using me, I in turn gave him a party when I couldn’t go.

WHITE: Now you also, you showed me--shall we call them autographs--in your wallet, and who are some of the people that you met, that would come into the houses 51:00like the Bingham’s? And you would talk to them.

ELLIS: Oh, lot of them I didn’t know them I didn’t know their names.

WHITE: Yes, but I’m talking about people like Hilary Rodham Clinton.

ELLIS: Well, Roger Mudd. The main man on CBS, uh.

WHITE: Dan Rather?

ELLIS: Dan Rather. Bob Dole.

WHITE: Oh, you wanted to tell that story.

ELLIS: Yes, listen if you don’t believe me, just ask Mrs. Owsley Brown. Mrs. Owsley Brown had Bob Dole and his wife as houseguests and had a party for them. One of our waiters is a light skinned guy, his name is Mackie. He’s our main man. He always took me around. He had me out at the party the night Bob Dole was there. 52:00Bob Dole come out to the bar talking politics. I told him, I said, “No you ( ). This is Democrats. This is Democrats out here working. You’re going to have to wait until you come to a bar where there’s Republicans if you want to talk like that.” WHITE: Who said that?

ELLIS: I told him, Senator Dole that. (Laughter, White) He started following me. I said, “Senator Dole, you better cut that out. I don’t want people thinking I’m part of that.” So I went on back out to the bar. Looked up and there he was again wanting to finish. And Mrs. Owsley Brown, if you know her, she’ll tell you that they still laugh about that. She asked him ( ) She see me she ask, “David you all see Senator Dole lately?” And I said, “Yes, ma’am.” She said, “Well, where is he?” 53:00I said, “He’s out there at the bar arguing with Dave.” They had to come get him because I wouldn’t let him get away because I kept throwing stuff on him that the Republicans ( ) Now Bush, I’m so glad my man didn’t win. Now you’re going to get an example of a Republican. The Republicans are a bunch of lousy dudes. They are. I don’t mean all Republicans.

WHITE: (Laughing) We’re on tape, David.

ELLIS: Well they are. They ain’t never done …I take that back. Eisenhower--I was going to ask you that question. What’s a Republican president that did something direct for blacks?

WHITE: You’ll have to tell me.

ELLIS: Eisenhower. That was only Republican president that ever did anything direct for the blacks. They keep on talking about 54:00Abraham Lincoln. That wasn’t directly for the blacks, that was to save the nation. That wasn’t to save us, that was to save the nation. Wasn’t it? Well, now.

WHITE: What did Eisenhower do?

ELLIS: Eisenhower do? Two great things. Some of the best things that ever happened to us. First thing he did, he sent the Army down at Little Rock to let them kids in the school. That was direct for us, wasn’t it? The next thing he did--direct for us, he when he was opening the Supreme Court. He picked the liberalist man ever lived in the United States to be head of the Supreme Court.

WHITE: Earl Warren?

ELLIS: That’s right. Liberalist guy the world. Put him ( ). When he did that, Lyndon Johnson come in there and passed 55:00twenty-three Civil Rights Bills, right in rotation. Never done before. That’s what Eisenhower did. That was great. When you talk to the Republicans, the first thing they say is, “Now what about Abe Lincoln?” I say, “I say what about him?” They say, “What did he do?” I say, “Nothing for us. For the Nation. He did something to save the nation. He did something so the nations come together; but it was nothing for us.” We were going to go anyway they go. He didn’t do anything for us.

WHITE: What do you think about the Emancipation Proclamation?

ELLIS: They don’t hold it up. They should hold up.

WHITE: That’s right, it didn’t operate in Kentucky.

ELLIS: Eisenhower, believe it or not, he was the one; that was directly for us, wasn’t it?

WHITE: Do you think he knew 56:00what Earl Warren was going to do?

ELLIS: Oh, yes, Earl Warren, everyone knew Earl Warren was a liberal guy. Nothing went through California unless it went through Earl Warren. He knew it. He knew about Earl Warren. I was going to tell you about my old guy down in Georgia that’s going to be a hundred years old.

WHITE: Strom Thurman?

ELLIS: Yes, Strom Thurman. Don’t everybody know how he is? He ain’t worth two dead flies. And then they always talk about how Strom Thurman will be a hundred years old. I don’t care if he’ll be five hundred years old, he still ain’t no account, no good.

WHITE: Now help me put together what you said about that and what you said about your own life in that the hardest thing for you, if I understand, if I’m right--is when you couldn’t get a job even though you had the talent 57:00because you weren’t white.

ELLIS: That’s right.

WHITE: And when you talk about Republicans who do, or do not do things to help blacks. Is that essentially what you’re talking about? The equal opportunity to get a job?

ELLIS: Not only to get a job. Anything the Republicans on. That’s why they come talking Abe Lincoln through us. And I say, “Abe Lincoln, what? What? What’d Abe Lincoln do?” They say, “He freed you all.” I say, “He didn’t free us. ( ) He did that to save the nation.” I say, “He freed you all. Ya’ll were on the ( ) He saved the Nation, that was for all of us.” But the other thing didn’t have anything to do with you all, it was direct for us.

WHITE: But when you’re talking about 58:00all the legislation that was passed under Johnson, the Civil Rights Act.

ELLIS: That’s right, twenty-three of them.

WHITE: And all of these--in other words, if they had been passed earlier and had affected your life.

ELLIS: Then they would have gotten credit.

WHITE: But what it meant for you, essentially, was being able to get as good as job as a white person who has as many talents and as much training as you do. That’s what it all boils down to.

ELLIS: Yes, that’s the only main thing the white race. See the white race misunderstood. You see when I say the white race, people, that don’t mean all of you; but as a whole. What they doing to the blacks--the first thing they did, like when they talk about the blacks going to school. 59:00The first thing the white man said was, “Do you want to marry my daughter?’ I said, “What, ( ) you daughter.” I said, “ Nobody ( ).” “( ) pick somebody.” I said, “The colored--the black people don’t have to pick no white person to do nuthin’. Don’t you know that in the colored race we got every color you can find? Like, my wife is white as you. She ( ). I said, “The first thing they said, they scared somebody might want …” I don’t want them to marry my daughter. (Laughter) Talk about wanting to marry your daughter. No, I don’t want them to marry my daughter either. I’m talking about what you do for the nation to save the people.

WHITE: Now what about things like, I mean, in 60:00the Louisville area until the end of 1960s, the parks were segregated.

ELLIS: That’s right.

WHITE: All kinds of things were segregated.

ELLIS: That’s right. Hum-hum.

WHITE: Now, what did you, I mean, how did you feel about that and what real difference did it make to you?

ELLIS: It made a whole lot of difference. The jobs situation was way bad. That’s why we like the Bingham’s. They had all the money they want. But if anything came up to help us, they did. They didn’t have to. They could afford anything other white people anywhere, but they didn’t. That’s they way ( ).

END TAPE ONE SIDE TWO BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE WHITE: Ok, you were saying.

ELLIS: The 61:00Republicans. The only thing they can say is, talking about Abraham Lincoln: but that’s stupid. Abraham Lincoln, anybody’s that’s been to school, he did that to save the nation. But the only Republican president that did anything directly towards Negroes was Eisenhower. That’s the only one I know.

WHITE: Now tell me for a minute about school—about going to school. Your going to school and then your daughter going to school.

ELLIS: Alright, going to school? See the first thing, the whole thing is a mess. We have been the victims of bad publicity.

WHITE: Bad publicity?

ELLIS: Bad publicity. That’s the main thing that’s hurt the black people in the United States, bad publicity. Because 62:00the white people, by you all having everything you wanted, doing everything you wanted to do, naturally you look down on the colored. And the colored wouldn’t be in that category ‘cause they couldn’t do all the things you could do—couldn’t afford it. And by them being all raggedy and doing things they always doing; you tell your kids: “Look, see how they live? See how they live? See how they do?” But they don’t tell the kids why they’re living that way. They living that way because the things that are available ( ) all our lives we ain’t been—had the privilege to after those kind of jobs. And if we did they didn’t hire us. But you got to have a job to do anything. So if they didn’t hire us, we naturally at a stand still. We can’t do nothing. The first thing I said they always want to do. They scared a black’s going to marry his daughter. 63:00I said, “Who in the world is going to marry somebody what color they are?” I said, “We got all kinds of colored people in our race. Pick out a color.” But anybody don’t pick out somebody’s color. I said, All right, now he pick out the whitest woman he can see, and they go out courting; and they turn the lights out. Now how’s he going to tell what color she is? You can tell by how he likes her. It’s likes--it ain’t the color”. The blacks really don’t pay no attention to color. Because I said, “I could bring ten widows out here with me, and no two of us be the same color.” You ever said a thing about that? Take two or three of us and we won’t be the same color. One will be tan, the other tanner, one will be black, 64:00some blacker, some so black they’re blue.

WHITE: And so it doesn’t matter?

ELLIS: No it doesn’t’ matter to us. It’s what’s you do, matters. How you do a thing How it hurts a person that’s what matters. What do you think I care what color you are if you are doing something that’s going to mess me up? Or if you do something good? I ain’t thinking about the color; it’s about the good thing you did. That’s what I think about it. I tell you, my wife is as light as you. She’s lighter than that. For that matter, the whole family was light. Why are they light? I can’t produce nobody that light. See what I mean. Now the white man has done that all his life.

WHITE: Done what?

ELLIS: Produced these light 65:00colored people. And now he don’t want to be bothered with them. We didn’t do it. He’s the one who did it. We don’t care about what color somebody is. I ain’t met any lady—no white as nice as you, nicer than you. If you’re a hellcat, you can be white as snow; if you a hellcat black as ace of spades, you still a hellcat. Until you change what you are and how you act, you’re still whatever …yeah.

WHITE: Well now, do you bear a grudge?

ELLIS: What?

WHITE: Do you bear a grudge about this?

ELLIS: No, I feel sorry for a person being that ignorant. Yeah, that’s the way I feel about it; anybody that ignorant. Just because a guy’s black, you going to--why take a dog, take 66:00any animal--suppose you got some puppies. And some come black, some brown, and maybe white; you going to pick one out because it’s another color? They’re still a dog. (Laughter both) That’s ridiculous. It’s so ridiculous to us we laugh about it; but it is. If you’re bad, you’re bad. I don’t care if you’re white as snow or black as an ace of spades: you still bad. You’re good, you’re good.

WHITE: Well how have you—I mean, given all of this that you’re talking about, how have you worked through it all? How have you managed to live your life within or around it?

ELLIS: Well, I live with it. Because our mother’s and daddy’s have taught us that the white people own everything 67:00and they run everything and we have to do what they say. If we don’t do what they say, they can make it tough for us. And we know that. That’s why we fall in line and do what they say.

WHITE: Do think they were right?

ELLIS: To do that? No, no, nobody’s right to … WHITE: No, no, were your parents right to teach you that?

ELLIS: Ah, huh?

WHITE: Were your parents right to teach you that?

ELLIS: They didn’t know no better.

WHITE: To do what the whites said?

ELLIS: Sure, they didn’t know no better, sure. It don’t mean if you’re white or black--depends on how you were taught.

WHITE: What about Black Power thing that came along? What about some of these civil rights movements?

ELLIS: All right. The Black Power and civil rights movements, yes. The whites--see Strom Thurman, the guy I was talking about; he’s been with the White Power down south all the time. Well that’s where the Black Power--and then Jesse Jackson comes along, 68:00takes the other side, and that’s the Black Power.

WHITE: But this is different than doing what your parents taught you to do, which is do what the whites told you. And these people aren’t doing that. Now I want to know what you think about that.

ELLIS: Well, the people.

WHITE: Is that smart?

ELLIS: Sure, it’s smart. They smart, but we wasn’t smart. The reason we wasn’t smart--we hadn’t any opportunity to go to anything that made us smart. We couldn’t go to school to make us smart. Until they put us in the schools, we wasn’t getting the proper teaching to make us smart.

WHITE: So do you think there’s been some progress?

ELLIS: A lot of progress.

WHITE: A lot of progress?

ELLIS: A lot of progress, yes. It’s almost been wiped out. And the country’s been better too and everything, for that. It was terrible back there when the country--we were real segregated. It was stupid. (laughs) Really, it’s because the black, he 69:00can’t do it because he’s black. Well you don’t segregate the animals. You don’t segregate pets. I’ve seen people that have the blackest little dogs up in their arms.

WHITE: Did you take part in or watch any of the civil rights demonstrations that were going on around here? No.

ELLIS: No, I didn’t’ take part in anything.

WHITE: You were busy.

ELLIS: That’s what I was going to tell you. I was out to one of you all’s house. Somewhere. I was really busy when I was waiting tables.

WHITE: But you were really happy to see it, to know that it was going on.

ELLIS: Oh, yeah. Yeah.. And we for everybody that knows what’s going on. That’s why, when one of the guys tried to get the black vote to help them. They figured the blacks would vote their way. But the blacks in this thing about 70:00Bush; Bush, now why do you think he got Powell to be his Secretary of State? Because he’s black. ( ) just so he could say he can say I’ve got a black ( ). Well, he has. And we can’t argue with that. But you know what we doing? I do it especially. When Bush gets in, I’m going to tell him, “You still got the log cabin up there in Washington that Abraham Lincoln was in?” He say, “Yes.” I say, “Get another one for Adam Clayton Powell.” WHITE: Adam Clayton Powell?

ELLIS: Yes.

WHITE: You mean Colin Powell?

ELLIS: Colin Powell. I say, “Tell him to build—we had you to build another for Clarence Thomas. Now I want you to build another for Powell.” That’s all they are--Tom’s. That’s exactly all they are, Tom’s. When he has his whole race of people that’s trying to get these guys eliminated, and 71:00he says, “I’m the secretary.” He ain’t the secretary of nothing for me.

WHITE: So it doesn’t make you feel good?

ELLIS: No, it doesn’t’ make, we don’t feel good when you get a guy like Clayton Powell.

WHITE: Colin Powell.

ELLIS: Colin Powell. Somebody like that in that job. Because Colin Powell is an Army man. He’s good for whoever got him ‘cause he got that stuff. But he ain’t good for us.

WHITE: Would you feel differently if Bush got somebody that you would consider to be the right black man for the job?

ELLIS: Yes.

WHITE: That would be different?

ELLIS: Yes, and the right man would be man who’s upholding the things we trying to get. So Colin Powell, he’s just, I’ve got to give him credit. He’s a good military man for all that , but 72:00he’s no good for us. Me in particular.

WHITE: I’ve got one more question and that is, what do you think about the fact that now, the white people, say the white politicians, now realize they need black votes?

ELLIS: That’s right.

WHITE: Does that, is that sort of interesting to you, or amusing to you? Having been? Is this part of the progress that’s been made?

ELLIS: No, this ain’t amusing to me. What’s amusing to me is, do we get a guy that do what Eisenhower did.

WHITE: You want to see some more real progress made.

ELLIS: That’s right. Yes. Eisenhower, I told you what he done. What he done was great.

WHITE: So we’re better off than we were but we’ve got some 73:00ways to go still.

ELLIS: We better off because we finally did something that was right. We ain’t never going to be right better off until we do it right. The way they do, is like telling a lie. You got to keep on lying until you tell the truth. It ain’t ever going to be straight until you tell you the truth. He can get all the Colin Powell's he wanted and all that stuff if they don’t eliminate this segregation stuff, it’s still going to be there. Ain’t nobody going to make you marry a white guy, black guy, nobody make you marry nobody and if you don’t want a white guy or black guy, you ain’t him, so what do he care? I don’t care if you’re white as snow or black as the ace of spades, not me. (Laughter White) That’s stupid, that really is, if you stop and think about it. That’s stupid.

WHITE: Well, thank you. This has been very, very 74:00interesting. [Break in tape.] WHITE: One more comment.

ELLIS: I said, “The white man is scared to death of the black man. And why he’s scared to death of a black man—‘cause a black man every time, not every time, but most of the time, that he gets the same break that a white man does, the black man out does him. Dominates him. Every time he gets the same opportunity as the white man, who dominates? And they wonder why he does that. It’s because it’s the gift of God. God give us the ability to be all this super. Take the Africans, all the dances they do today. Do you know who originated those dances? The Africans. And if a black dominate 75:00especially in sports. When I came along I couldn’t even walk across a golf course. ‘What are you doing here? Black guy, get out of here.’ Wasn’t even allowed to walk across the golf course. Now we’ve got a black guy that’s beating them all. Tiger Woods. If goes all the way. I’m going to build one of those cabins for him. We going to get one for Clarence Thomas and Powell. (laughter White) We get another for Tiger Woods.” END TAPE TWO SIDE ONE END OF INTERVIEW