Oral History Interview with John "Jack" Guthrie

ETHEL WHITE: This is a conversation with Jack Guthrie. We are at his office at Guthrie-Mays, Public Relations, at 710 West Main Street in Louisville, Kentucky. It is June 14, 2000. My name is Ethel White. Okay, Mr. Guthrie could we start with a little bit of biographical information, your pre-University of Kentucky years?

JOHN GUTHRIE: There wasn’t any pre-University of Kentucky, (laughing) but if you really want to go back that far; it’s hard sometimes, because it’s been a number of years. But I guess, Louisville has always been home. Looking at a student at Trinity High School. I don’t think you want to go back further than that one?

WHITE: Trinity’s fine.

GUTHRIE: And that’s sort of where I got involved in journalism, like a lot of other young people, I’m sure, working on the school newspaper. And just being part of 1:00the extra-curricular activities, and really enjoyed this newspaper called The Echo; which today still has a great reputation for assisting, you know, young high school journalists that go on to college. And I’m very proud of what Trinity has done. Around that same time I guess I also sort of made a nuisance of myself at The Voice of Saint Mathews. There’s a fellow by the name of Emil Aunn, A U N N, I believe, who was the editor of The Voice at that time. And it was owned by a fellow by the name of Shansberg. They had invited me to do sports stories on Trinity’s athletic activities. But I also wanted to do more, just to learn how the business worked and to accept a little part time job. So 2:00they, in order not to make a nuisance of myself: they invited me in and they let me write obits and they let me write, oh, small news columns about what was going on in the different cities around the area; and do their filing and their clipping. You know, whatever they wanted done, sweep the floor, I would do. And they paid me ten cents a column inch. So I used to write a lot. (laughter) To try to--at the end of every two week period I got to count up my inches. Then I went to--I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, as a lot of, I guess, young people graduating from high school; and especially back in 1958. You know the world was, well it was a much larger place in many ways. Students, at that time you didn’t know there was such a big world out there that you could deal with. Your world was really local. And 3:00from a financial standpoint I did not have the resources to go away to school; but my friends then were--a lot of them were going to Bellarmine, so I decide to go to Bellarmine. And spent two years there and enjoyed it very much; and worked on the college paper there. As it was called today, as it was then. It’s called The Concord. The Bellarmine Concord. And I remember turning in a paper to a Franciscan priest, who was an English teacher. And he gave it back to me, and he said, you know, “See me on it.” So I went to see him. And he said, “This is well done, but it’s not what I’m looking for as an English theme.” He said, “You need to go to Journalism School.” He said, “I think that would better serve your writing ability, than possibly majoring in English or Accounting.” You know, I was going to be an accounting major, I was going to be a dentist, I was, you know, 4:00going to be everything back then. And I told him, I said, “I have no idea, where is there a Journalism School?” And he didn’t know either. So I went out to the University of Louisville to see, and found out that they didn’t have a program. And my sister, older sister, was a graduate student at UK; and she was living in Frankfort. And one weekend she said, “You know I think UK has got a journalism school. I’ll look into it.” So sure enough, they did. And I caught a Greyhound bus; up in Shelbyville Road and Breckenridge Lane it used to stop. So I caught a bus to ride to Lexington, and she picked me up at the Greyhound station in Lexington; and we went to visit the campus. And sort of the rest of it is history. They didn’t want to let me in, though. They almost didn’t let me in, but I managed to get there. 5:00And that’s where I became involved with The Kentucky Kernel.

WHITE: And this was your Junior year?

GUTHRIE: Would have been my Junior year. I was one of those five-year wizards. Because when I transferred, I lost about a semester in there with Philosophy and some Theology credits, and some things that the state university wasn’t too fond of at that time as taking as transfer credits. And when they offered me the editorship of The Kernel, I had to agree to stay the whole year. There was not--I mean if I wanted to be editor. So I just lightened my load my Senior year. And I probably needed every credit though, that I could get by that time. So in losing the one semester and then picking up some time in order to work on The Kernel. And we were publishing four days a week at that time. We published a daily, Monday, Tuesday....Well, I take that back. It came out 6:00Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So we did not publish a Monday edition. Now they’re publishing five days a week. We were publishing four days a week and that was still considered a daily on a college campus.

WHITE: Did you start immediately with The Kernel?

GUTHRIE: Oh, we started writing because, I mean I started writing because I was a Journalism, you know, major; but no, I was just a staff writer for my first semester of my Junior year. And then the second semester, I remember I was made what they called....Well, let me back up a little bit. I’ll say that even though I was a Junior on their books because of the transfer things, I was really a Sophomore. Okay? Because I was going to spend three years at UK. So that first year I was just writing, you know, like any of the other students, whatever assignments that were given on any campus activity. And I would do anything just to stick around. It was a fun thing to do, 7:00and I had ink in my blood, or something. And then the next year, fortunately, was asked to be what we called the daily editor. We had a staff for each day that we published, and you had an individual that headed that particular day’s staff, so I was one of those. I was the Wednesday editor. (laughing) And then there was the, what we called the Campus editor, the City editor, and a Managing editor and a regular editor above it. There were about six people above there, that were every day. And then each day had it’s staff. And then after my Junior year, you had to apply and there were, I guess, I know at least two of us, maybe three, that had applied to the Director of the School. And I was fortunate enough to be the one selected to be editor for the year nineteen sixty-two, nineteen sixty-three. And that’s where the college part of it or the editorship 8:00in college began.

WHITE: Okay, well why don’t we start or continue with you’re telling the story of The Kentucky Kernel and civil rights.

GUTHRIE: Okay.

WHITE: And then we’ll follow up with some questions.

GUTHRIE: Okay.

WHITE: How did it get started first?

GUTHRIE: There were a...

WHITE: Start at the beginning.

GUTHRIE: There were a number of us that made up that--I guess the permanent members--if you will--permanent of the student body. And we met--some of us met over the summer. My managing editor, who was my best friend, and still is for that matter; Dick Wilson, who is just recently retired from The Courier Journal. And you were looking, what kind of issues will we want to be involved with in the Fall? You know you are going to have your normal campus activities, and sports activities. I think we all felt that the world was changing, society was changing and how might 9:00we make a difference? What could we see that we wanted to leave some kind of legacy of that particular year. There were some things that were happening in the country, at that time. The Civil Rights Movement was beginning to emerge. There were the demonstrations, there were the....You remember after the ‘60 Olympics, when Cassius Clay, now Muhammad Ali, came back to Louisville. He could not be served in some of the restaurants in his own hometown. And as college students, while we were aware, we probably weren’t....it didn’t affect us that much. But I remember being....when we got back to campus that Fall, and some of our discussions; we looked into it and found that the African-Americans--at that time 10:00“Negroes”--who were attending the University of Kentucky; while we had not seen any: what we’d say discrimination; it was probably because we didn’t look. And we began to ask some questions around campus and found out there were some of the...

WHITE: This the Fall of sixty-two?

GUTHRIE: It would be the Fall of sixty-two--that there were some things going on, and around campus that we certainly as a college newspaper, thought needed to be addressed and commented on. Locally as well as things that were happening at other schools. You may remember, there was a fellow by the name of James Meredith, who was trying to get admission to the University of Mississippi. And the governor of Mississippi at that time, stood on the steps--Governor Ross Barnett--and refused that young man entry into the University of Mississippi. The University of Kentucky had been integrated since 1949, and it was done very 11:00peacefully. It was done by court order. The University welcomed a suit that was filed by Doctor Lyman Johnson and it really never went to trial. It was decided or let’s say it never went to a jury trial. It went to trial and the judge ruled in favor of Doctor Johnson. And I think in the summer of ‘49, Lyman Johnson, along with some other students, African-American students, entered the University. And we were proud of that fact, but still there needed--more needed to be done. And here we were, eleven years, not even that. What? Nine years later, close to it. So we found out, we did stories at that time about housing discrimination around campus, people that might not rent student housing, off-campus housing, to African-Americans. To restaurants that they found out that they could--sure 12:00they could go in and buy something and take it out--but they could not eat it at the counter in the restaurant. So we did a survey. I remember that was one of, probably the first thing we did. We did a survey of students and found out, most of, a lot of the students didn’t know. And after we told them, were sort of appalled by the findings and felt that for the most part that these students deserved the same right as any other student. So slowly but surely, the segregation barriers began to drop around the campus. And probably more slowly than we had liked, but it was a beginning. And then James Meredith, and then civil rights activities throughout the country. You know and at that time too, college students’ interest, there was something else going on and it was the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was a whole ‘nother issue, which we were....We wanted to try to, to get our readers, if you will, our students to look beyond their little world 13:00and what else might affect them out there. Certainly the integration issue was an important one, but I remember distinctly going back to--actually my fraternity house and watching one night--all of us sitting around watching President Kennedy talk about the Cuban Missile Crisis and what bearing would that have on us. Especially seniors, you know, and the Draft was looking you, you know; right down the pike. So there were a lot of things going on. And part of this then, we got into discussing the athletic situation. And there were articles being written about many outstanding black athletes in the South were going to universities to the North. They were going to Michigan State, Syracuse, Ohio State, Indiana, wherever that they might go. But they were not going to Southeastern Conference schools. So that sort of, was where we started another--and I think probably the most important move 14:00that we made at that time--was to both editorially, as well as, from a news standpoint cover the University’s position, and what would they do if we demanded; and the students demanded that African-Americans be allowed to play organized sports for the University.

WHITE: Could you take just a minute to describe what the situation was in the SEC?

GUTHRIE: There were no....Of all of the teams across--whether it be basketball, football, you name it, to my knowledge--and I’m sure it was true--there were no black athletes that participated in any intercollegiate athletics. Whether there were any intramural athletics, I don’t know. But competing against the other schools...

WHITE: Was there a written rule?

GUTHRIE: No. We didn’t find one. It seemed to be an unwritten rule. And what we looked at back then, again 15:00sort of an editorial staff that we had. And there were probably five or six of us that were part of that team, if you will. The NCAA finals in basketball were going to be held in Louisville in March. So we thought this would be a perfect opportunity to make the statement, and sort of start a campaign to allow African-Americans to be part of the total college experience and to play. So we began doing our homework and a lot of that encompassed....I remember one....Well, working with the advisor to The Kernel at that point, whose name I know well and it will come to me in a minute and I’ll bring it back up.

WHITE: Was that Lewis Donahue?

GUTHRIE: Lewis Donahue, you got it, yes! Doctor Donahue, who was not Doctor then, it was Mr. Donahue. He was sort of the faculty advisor. As I remember we had a conversation with him 16:00that we wanted to launch an editorial effort on this behalf. And to his credit, I believe, and he did this on most things. He said, “As long as you’ve got your facts and your figures and you’ve done your homework, I will support that effort.” So we did that and we also knew we had to get our message outside of just the Lexington area. We just couldn’t publish on the campus. We needed to reach out beyond Lexington or it just might fall on deaf ears. So Dick Wilson and I rode into Louisville one either Saturday or Sunday and we met with John Ed Pierce. John Ed Pierce at the time was the editorial page editor of The Courier Journal. And we knew Mr. Pierce from touring the building--touring The Courier at some point during our J-School career--and he was also a University of Kentucky graduate. And we met him at his house. And we told him of our plan and we said if we go through with this, will The Courier 17:00support us? And he asked us, “If we had, had lunch?” And we had not. And he gave us five bucks or whatever, probably not back then, probably three dollars; and said, “Why don’t you guys go have lunch someplace and come back.” So we did and when we got back to his house, he handed us something he had just pulled out of the typewriter. He said, “How’s this?” And it was an editorial, his first draft of The Courier’s support of the UK student newspaper demanding that the University either admit black athletes or get out of the Southeastern Conference. And he said, “There’s work to be done, and I want to see the drafts that you all have; and we’ll support you.” So while we were gone, he had knocked that out, and I suspect he probably had made a few phone calls. So we felt very good about that, having The Courier Journal at that time; and in some instances it’s not the same place today. But it was certainly, I thought it was a major daily newspaper to be reckoned with in this country. And if you got that support, we knew it then would carry beyond the boundaries of Fayette County. But we went back, we also....a few of us had developed 18:00a friendship with a gentleman by the name of Kelso Sturgeon. And Kelso was a sports writer for the Associated Press. And we told Kelso ( ) about our plan of attach. And he agreed to put it on the wire for us. And when he did ( ). We published at night, and the paper would be on the press somewhere around eight to ten o’clock, depending. So, and then be distributed for the people to pick up the next morning. So we gained....anytime we did a story, we provided it that night to Kelso Sturgeon, who could put it on the AP sports wire.

WHITE: ( ) you did this ( ).

GUTHRIE: Yeah, oh no, no. He wanted to pick up something else that we may have written at the time. But we were doing it on this particular matter. And that was another way to get the message out beyond the boundaries of Lexington. And we kind of set up the first ( ) editorial toward the end of March, the twenty-third if I remember correctly. The NCAA, the coaches, 19:00or the Athletic Directors from Louisville, before the beginning of it, the National Champion, and then again the week before when they met; and then you had your National Championship. So then we had all of ( )...decision makers...impact on a decision...Not only the SEC schools, but every major school in the country would be there. And The Courier picked up our editorial. And it kind of snowballed and got rolling.

WHITE: Go ahead, it snapped off for a minute.

GUTHRIE: There were a series of articles of what other schools were doing in Kentucky. And there were other Kentucky schools that had been integrated for some time. So we told our story. And realize this was the end of March and the first of April. And Boards of Trustees had to meet--we were, most of us were seniors, school was going to be out the end of May, first of June. So the window to get something accomplished was very narrow, 20:00but the message, as I said, that snowball got rolling. To make a long story short, the newspaper followed through, the University Board of Trustees, while they weren’t sure how it was going to work, they....President Dickie came out and made the comment that he supported black athletes playing in the Southeastern Conference. And it took a few years for it to happen, but it did come to pass. And today, obviously we know, I don’t know what percentage, but certainly in football and basketball, a very large percentage of the young men and young women too, now on woman’s basketball teams, are African-American and have done a great job. And we owe them a great deal. And some of our finest athletes certainly have come from the black community.

WHITE: Oh, okay, let’s see if we can just talk about some of these sub-issues, I guess. The sub-questions. First of all, when you were discussing, 21:00you and your staff were discussing this issue over the summer. Do you remember anything about the way those discussions went? In other words, was there any hesitation on anyone’s part to tackle with civil rights issues? Were there any considerations to be dealt with, as far as, maybe it wasn’t a good idea?

GURTHRIE: If there was, I don’t recall anybody saying it was not a good idea. I sure we knew, if you will, that there was a risk involved. But seniors in college and journalism students: risk was our middle name. We loved it. And I think it gave us a purpose of being, it gave us a way to make a difference. It gave us a way that we wanted to impact the student body. And it was a cause we all believed in. And we were determined, I mean there was certainly, there was nobody that quit the staff. I don’t remember, you know, it’s been a long time, but any really disagreements. The only thing was how do we do it, and how do we go about it? And of course, during the time, we got some interesting hate mail from around 22:00the state, as well as, around the region. Because when the story was picked up by the Associated Press and sent out across the country, some of the letters that arrived, it was amazing to me....just, well maybe the same. Unfortunately there’s still some of it out there today....the racism that existed. But at the same time while we were getting some hate mail - and some from journalists, which was even....you know. I remember one that came in from a paper in Jackson, Mississippi, who basically said if the University of Kentucky wants to let Negroes play, fine, let them get out of the SEC. We don’t need those people in our sports programs. And this was a newspaper in Jackson, Mississippi. And it’s interesting to note that the current editor, news editor, I guess--executive editor they call it at The Courier Journal--is a man by the name of Bennie Ivory, who is African-American and came from The Sun newspaper. So 23:00a lot of water has gone over the dam, much for the better, in that time. But we did get some nation-wide and world-wide attention. We had faculty that were interested in supporting us. We had students. We had those that didn’t. But we printed every letter to the editor that came in, no matter what was said. We felt if we had the right to express our opinions, our students, and fellow students should have the right to express theirs.

WHITE: So you published racial epitaphs and everything else?

GUTHRIE: Everything. And I don’t remember any, you know, any problem with that. I wondered at the time, and Lewis Donahue, who was the moderator, probably took a lot of heat maybe from others on campus. But The Kernel, we were very proud of that student newspaper. It was known as one of the, certainly the top college newspaper, if you will, in the South. If you want to be classified in that way. But there were some very outstanding newspapers. We had won seven William Randolph Hurst awards that year, a couple of them for our integration 24:00series, but for other writings, too. The top college newspapers, The Daily Nebraskan, was a big one, I remember. The Daily Texan was a big one. The Tarheel in North Carolina. We were among the top ten college newspapers in the country. And I think that’s another thing that made us proud of that fact. And we were going to maintain the reputation of the quality of journalism. And a lot of the young people can’t say that now. ( ). Some that came out of there have gone on to make a pretty good name for themselves in different professions, and many of them in the journalism profession. So we were all proud to be part of The Kentucky Kernel and proud of the statement we made, that made a difference. Even though Kentucky--and I’d have to go and do some homework--we did have a young--we were not the first one to have a black athlete; as I recall it was Tennessee. And I was in service, and after getting out of service, started a career ( ). Because I had left Kentucky at that time. I was working in New York. Then about two years later there was a black football player 25:00at Tennessee. And then there was a....Adolph Rupp had recruited a black basketball player. And it did not work out with that young man both grade-wise and he also had some other problems. And that sort of soured the university a little bit at that point. ( ) Was Adolph a racist? I don’t think he was. I honestly don’t think he was. People forget the times we were living in. If he was living today and doing maybe some of the things he did then, you might have considered him a racist. But he was from Kansas; his high school team that he coached, had black athletes on it. But he didn’t have a Kansas drawl ( ). I think he sort of got the short end of stick. We did not hear anything from Adolph. I don’t remember getting a quote from him. But it was Bernie Shively, who was the Athletic Director at the time, which is who--that’s who properly should have commented, was Bernie Shively; and the President of the university and the Board of Trustees. That’s who we were going after, not the coach: you know you had to change policy. And there seemed to be a fear or an excuse--maybe a little bit of both--that Kentucky would say, “Well we don’t want to recruit any 26:00young black athletes who might have to go down to Georgia or Alabama or Florida, wherever, Louisiana to play basketball, because of some of the abuse they might be subjected to.” Which I thought they should leave it up to the student, but that Kentucky should do the right thing. And there were some schools that said they wouldn’t play us. And we said if they won’t play us, then we should get out. It was an interesting battle at the time.

WHITE: The emphasis that was in the articles that you gave me to look at, by the UK officials, was they were afraid that they would lose money; and then there was something about value, that I’m not sure I understood. I don’t remember seeing anything about what might happen to the black athlete who would go down there. And I’m sure it was in something else. But the emphasis that I noticed was let’s go slow, we don’t want to, I guess lose some sort of donations. There was something about bond holders in the coliseum?

GUTHRIE: I guess and that probably was very true. As I look back then, as students at the time, 27:00we just said, we looked beyond that. But as Trustees, that was probably something proper for them to address.

WHITE: But this wasn’t anything that anyone came directly to you about?

GUTHRIE: No.

WHITE: Did anyone try to quiet you down?

GUTHRIE: No. They did not. And whether they approached the Director of the school or whether they approached the moderator....if so, I was not aware of it. And in fact, just about six, eight months ago, maybe last September or October, I had an opportunity to talk with Doctor Frank Dickey, who was President at the time. And we were at a luncheon. He’s retired, living in Lexington and still, you know, active. And we—“Doctor,” I said, “There’s one thing I always wanted to ask and never had an opportunity.” I said, “Do you recall the integration series that we did?” And he said, “Yes.” I said, “Did you get much objection? Did you get many calls from University family?” And he said, “No.” He said, “Surprisingly my calls were from other institutions around the SEC, and their concern over it; and not 28:00really our own faculty and staff as much as others.” And that sort of made me feel good about that, that the University was willing to do what was right and stand up for it. I’m looking at an editorial here, that it seems that Mississippi State did say that they would not play an integrated team at home, at their home.

WHITE: Their home?

GUTHRIE: That they might play up here. But it’s interesting that the University of Georgia is almost certain to take the same position, that they would play integrated teams at home or away. Vanderbilt and Tulane both replied that they would play integrated teams. So far Mississippi State, which UK at that time didn’t play, down there, replied that they would not play an integrated team at home. And the other schools have reserved comment.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO GUTHRIE: I think it’s interesting in looking through some of this I haven’t seen for a while. Even though my little scrapbook that I’ve got all of this material. It’s an editorial in The Courier said, “That 29:00the University of Kentucky could lead the conference, and that the Trustees should take action and vote at their next meeting.” That would have been--this was--appeared in March, the end of March; so it would have been the April Trustee meeting, to do away with segregation and to allow black athletes. And UK President, Frank Dickey said, “He favored integrated athletics, but he adds that the University’s obligation to the holders of the bonds of Stow Field and Memorial Coliseum must be considered.” Were the bonds sold under the condition that the University would maintain “Jim Crow” athletic teams? If not, he must mean that if the University is dropped from the conference, it would have trouble working out schedules, and attendance at football and basketball games that would come into place. And that would be true, that the University, because they shared revenue. So, from a financial standpoint that had 30:00to come into play back then. And if we had gotten out of the SEC, where would we go and how would we do it, if we got to an independent? Then you don’t share conference proceeds. So there were other issues that had to be considered, but of the leadership that we saw from Doctor Dickey and Bernie Shively and others, whether they sort of bit their tongue or not. At least Doctor Dickey said, “No, it was the right thing and he supported it.” WHITE: Well, I did want to ask you, that brings up the issue of the impatience of youth versus the caution of the adult world. I mean, UK didn’t want, said it would not withdraw from the SEC, but it would work for the desegregation of it. Then somebody named Tom Sightler in Street and Smith’s Football said, “That the SEC race issue might have remained dormant if it hadn’t been for The Kernel.” You had newspapers like The Courier Journal, who were on your side. 31:00As you look back from the point of view of the year two thousand, what do you think? Were you right to push for it? Were they right to say go slow? Was it a matter of a push-pull, that was necessary in order to move things along?

GUTHRIE: It probably would have eventually happened, because of the country itself and what was happening, the Civil Rights Movement was in full swing. So if anything, I think by The Kernel’s nudging early on, that the University and i.e., then the state of Kentucky was able once again to make an easier transition into allowing African-Americans into the mainstream of our athletics and other programs. Not that the state of Kentucky or UK or somebody haven’t made some mistakes along the way. We 32:00all have. But I do think we acknowledged what was right. We were the first South Eastern Conference School to integrate our classrooms, so it only was right that we were the first to integrate at least in saying we would, even if we might not have been the first to put a young man or woman on a court or a football field.

WHITE: You were the first SEC school to integrate the classrooms, you said?

GUTHRIE: Yes.

WHITE: Okay.

GUTHRIE: Yes. That was back in 1949 with Doctor Johnson.

WHITE: Oh that. Okay. Sorry.

GUTHRIE: Yes. Because here if you looked at it, James Meredith in nineteen, the Fall of sixty-two was standing, you know, was being turned away by gunpoint from the University of Mississippi. And there was a lot of problems.

WHITE: Were you in contact with any--either as a result of your editorial about James Meredith or as a result of that, your articles and editorials about the SEC integration--were 33:00you in contact with any of the other campus newspapers around the country? Do you remember?

GUTHRIE: I’ll tell you, not in the fact, you know; it’s so easy today with e-mails and telephones, and at that time you made a long distance phone call, you might as well been calling the moon. No, we had Exchange Programs with our paper that we’d send around. And I do remember a number of, three or four, if they were mailed back to us, if we were able to find them, but of other schools. I remember LSU, the editor at LSU was one who did a column, that endorsed what The Kernel was asking for. And I’m sure there were some other southern schools that probably did the same thing as well as they were....I don’t remember any other student publication being against it.

WHITE: But it wasn’t the right time in the world for you to be, to pick up the phone and call, say LSU and say what’s it like down there and what’s your paper doing?

GUTHRIE: Today 34:00we probably would.

WHITE: You didn’t do that kind of thing then?

GUTHRIE: But you sort of didn’t do it. Maybe we weren’t sophisticated enough to think about it at that point. What we did do, of course--we wanted--we did a total review. And I remember personally of talking with Presidents and Athletic Directors throughout the state of Kentucky. We did a large--about a page and a half feature story on a capsule of what each university was doing. And we found we were the only ones that were the holdout there, and the excuse was, again, well we’re playing in the South. So the University of Louisville had black athletes. And there was rumor at the time and probably the man is certainly still with us today, it would be interesting to ask him, that Wes Unsell, who became an All-American at U of L, and All-American Pro; and he has coached in the Pros. That he was recruited by 35:00the University of Kentucky, but declined because he did not want to be the first. He did not want to be the one to break the barrier. Which if you think about it, it’s tough enough being in college and playing college athletics, much less if you had to take some abuse around. And he stayed at U of L and did very well. But there were some other colleges, yes, that did support us, but no we did not pick up the phone and....I guess our world....Besides, we were seniors, we still had to graduate. We had finals. (laughing) To get into things, and we were wanting to make sure our message continued to get out.

WHITE: Do you remember any of the people you talked to on the campus? On the UK campus? I know it’s been a long time.

GUTHRIE: No, I really don’t.

WHITE: Do you remember talking to any of the black students?

GUTHRIE: You know it’s a shame, I don’t. I mean I’m not sure that our staff and whatever and the sports editor and whatever may have. There were a lot of us that were part of the equation.

WHITE: But you were the editor and other people were out... 36:00GUTHRIE: Yeah, and other people were out. And it was not a, you know, this was certainly not a one person thing. It was a team of us that made it happen.

WHITE: There was a couple of allusions to you’re being on radio or television or both. Do you remember any appearances?

GUTHRIE: No, I really....There might have been some radio interviews. And I remember reading about those and my memory does not recall those, unfortunately.

WHITE: The other thing I noticed was, and if you want me to pause the tape, so you can look at to refresh your memory, I will do that. But I noticed that there was a letter, you sent me a letter from Martin Luther King. And in that letter, he, I don’t believe he made any comment about your series. But what he wanted was money.

GUTHRIE: ...was money. I think, all of a sudden we got on a few mailing lists. (laughing) From the Southern Leadership, Christian Leadership Conference. And I think, well we just got on some mailing list. Looking at, well 37:00maybe this is a liberal student newspaper and we should....I remember there was a ....Boy I can’t think. There was a society, a liberal group, known as Students for Democratic Action. And I’ve forgotten what university, where it started, but I remember that they paid a visit to me at the University. And we walked over to a little snack shop and sat down and had a cup of coffee or something. And they were interested in us editorializing for that particular cause. And I said, “You’ve got certain things mixed up here, you know, especially with this individual, who I guess....Why I might be socially liberal in looking at what needs to be done; it’s the right thing to do. I’m probably still a conservative at heart.” But they had a number of socialist issues that they wanted us to join their force, forces on that. I think we just got on some mailing list at that point. So I don’t remember any other particular thing.

WHITE: Well now there was, there was an aftermath, where 38:00your advisor was replaced by another advisor.

GUTHRIE: That was an interesting...

WHITE: And I...Could you talk about what happened and speculate as to why?

GUTHRIE: And that’s all it would be. It would be speculation. I think it’s probably pretty good speculation.

WHITE: All right, first of all...

GUTHRIE: From an authoritative source.

WHITE: All right, what happened first of all?

GUTHRIE: The fellow that was going to succeed me as editor of The Kernel, was Dick Wilson. The moderator, Doctor Lewis Donahue, he was going on to Graduate School at either Iowa or Iowa State. So there was going to be a new faculty moderator. And at that time I was gone, but Dick and I were very close. And I remember getting a letter from him and I was in boot camp. And he was talking about a gentleman 39:00they brought in from Winchester, Kentucky. He was editor, I think, of The Winchester Sun, who was a retired publisher, who they--they being the University--was going to retain as the faculty moderator for The Kernel. And Dick would have to tell you the story for sure, but I remember he talked....He and Dick met and basically one thing that he did--there was a suite--not suite: there were offices and a couple of rooms that we as students used as newsrooms. Well, he moved all the students out over into one big typing room. It wasn’t a computer room, it was a typing room, with manual typewriters, you know, Smith-Coronas. And he took over the editor’s office as his office. He took over the newsroom as his reception room and took over what was the sport’s editor’s office as his conference room. Put all the students and he had told Dick, 40:00and I feel this was correct, that there would be no more “nigger news” reported in The Kentucky Kernel. And that he was now the publisher and he would make sure that it was run his way. And I’m writing Dick from, you know, you didn’t pick up the phone then and telling Dick, throw him out, move the furniture out in the hall, demonstrate, do whatever you need to do, but he’s got to go. Because you can’t. Bill Caywood, Caywood was his last name, I remember, Caywood was his last name. William Caywood, I think, but Caywood was his last name. And I don’t know the details, you know, it’s easy for me to be sitting six hundred miles away and then, you know, in the military, etcetera, so you can’t keep track. But Dick, to my knowledge, was the only editor of The Kentucky Kernel, that never published an issue. He resigned in protest. And there was a 41:00woman by the name of Sue Endicott, who had, was a journalism student, and she became editor I guess. And agreed in some sort to at least try to do what she could, as far as, under the new regime.

WHITE: Did the University hire Caywood?

GUTHRIE: Well, that’s--Yes, I’d have to say somewhere they did. Whether it was the director of the school, how, Dick Wilson would have to recall that. And then there was a whole time where there was a demand for the newspaper to go independent, to remove itself from the Journalism School, as far as being published, if you will, by the University. And you can see....You can argue either side of the coin. But it’s a publication of the University, should the University have more say in what goes in it. Well, my answer is no, it’s a student learning workshop. But there were 42:00a number of papers at that time, around the country, that, over the next, from about nineteen sixty-three to nineteen seventy-three, set up independent boards if you will. And while they might have still been associated with the schools, were at arm’s length. And that is still true today at UK. The Kentucky Kernel is still an important part of their journalism program, but it is actually an independent entity, much like the Athletic Association is independent. The Alumni Association is independent, you have dotted lines to the University, but legally, you are a separate entity. And they set up their own Board of Advisors. There was a woman by the name of Nancy Green, who worked on....Nancy Lawridge at the time, who was student when I was, who sort of became the moderator of the first independent Kernel. And there were some bumpy roads for a few years for The Kernel and other papers 43:00around the country. Because of the war issue....You not only had, that was....The integration or whatever, there might have been a few of us fighting that battle, but you also then had Viet Nam heating up. And I’m sure you had student newspaper making editorial stances, et cetera, et cetera, in that regard. But I was removed from it and not directly involved. And then what came along was Kent State. There was a just a whole lot, you know, going on in that sixty-three to seventy-three time period.

WHITE: Well, I just wondered whether the University had become gun shy as a result of the issues that The Kernel had raised and decided to try to quiet things down a little bit. Or whether it was just uh, circumstantial.

GUTHRIE: I think, unofficially I would say they probably became a little gun shy. However, I think the seeds had been planted. The movement was underway. You had a new President at the time. Now there was another thing that started, because Doctor Dickey had resigned to take a position in Washington. 44:00And you had Doctor John Oswald, who came to the University from the California system. He was a Chancellor out in California. I do remember, interesting story....I was a six month wonder in the military, so I didn’t last very long. After getting out of service in about January of ‘64, I came back to Lexington and worked for a few months before moving to New York. Then when you came back, the first place you’d go to re-establish, you know, friends and see what was going on. I received a letter from Doctor Oswald inviting me as a former editor of The Kernel, to meet with him to discuss some planning that was being done on how to best set up an independent paper or a new structure, if you will, 45:00for the newspaper. At the time still we had Bill Caywood, who was the moderator. It was an interesting day. There were about....One afternoon I was in the Journalism School. I had never met him, didn’t want to meet him. But that afternoon, by complete happenstance, there were four, three or four former editors that happened to show up on the same day. And we weren’t there for the same reason that I know of, we just sort of happened....And he thought the conspiracy, I mean he was on his way out. (laughing) It did shake him up a little bit.

WHITE: You mean he thought it was deliberate?

GUTHRIE: He thought it was deliberate, that all of us were ganging up against him. He only lasted that one year, if I have correctly. He didn’t last beyond that one year. Because he, well he tried, he was suppressing, you know, student news. He was just not the man for the job. But he sure 46:00caused chaos. And caused one of the best future journalists not to ever edit The Courier. And David Hoffman then at The Courier, who now is editorial chief of The Courier. He was sort of a sophomore, when we were juniors, seniors. So David was part of that....What was coming behind us were also strong student leaders and strong student journalists. Fellow by the name of Bill Grant was in there. That we weren’t, they weren’t going to give up. We were proud, not only of just, well of The Kernel, not only of its stance on integration, but of its independence and what that school had taught us to be. We were not going to let somebody take that over. So, I remember getting this letter from Doctor Oswald wanting to have this conversation, so I went on campus and I set up the meeting. Before going to the meeting though, made some stops on campus to see what had gone on while I was away. And I remember seeing, there was an anthropology professor, who was just a neat guy and a good friend, who was one of my sources when I was editor. 47:00And I went to see him, explained, “I said, let me tell you why I’m here and what I’m looking for and what the new president has asked me for.” And after I explained it; he said, “Jack, he’s blowing smoke.” He said, “The decision’s been made.” I said, “What?” He said, “All he’s trying to do is make things look good. He’s just trying to pad it.” He opened his desk drawer and he said, “read this.” And he handed me a sheet of paper, and on it was an outline that had been adopted by the University Senate or somebody. It was a letter or a memo from the President on the new structure of The Kentucky Kernel. I said, “You’ve got to be kidding.” He said, “No he’s just, he’ll talk to all of you and then he’ll make his decision, and he will make you all part of that decision.” I said, “I’ll be damned.” So I went over to see him. Well, I kept....The gentleman said, he said, 48:00“Here you can have this.” He was on a committee that ended up getting a copy of it. So I went over to see the good Doctor Oswald, never met him. And during the course of the conversation, I was sitting in a chair in front of his desk. And he was telling me he was just exploring different methods of college journalism and how the newspaper, and you know, on and on and on. I said, “Well I understand this, that and that.” He was not confirming it at all, and I reached into my coat pocket and I said, “But how do you explain this?” And he said, “Where did you get that? Where did you get that? You’re not supposed to have that”--or something to that effect. And I said, “Doctor,” I said, “I’m proud to be a graduate of this university’s Journalism School. And if I couldn’t come on this campus and get some information prior to coming in this office, I didn’t learn much.” And he’s, “Miss Wilson! Miss Wilson!” Who was his secretary. “Show this man out of here!” So I had the prerogative, I guess, of being thrown out of the president’s office in the spring of 1964. 49:00I guess I’m sort of proud of that fact. (laughter) So that was the end of my conversation with Doctor Oswald. And then I spent six years in New York. And you’re busy starting a career, starting a family. While you’re keeping touch and you try to know what’s going on. The war was raging in Viet Nam. Student interest was in the streets on that. But Kentucky, it did happen. And I think there was a young man, it was a young, football player. And I’d have to go look up his name to see who was the first black athlete to start for a University of Kentucky program. But even today, I think it speaks well for the University, you have a gentleman in C. M. Newton, who lead the integration of Alabama and its basketball program, when he became coach, foot er, basketball coach down there. And Bear Bryant was football coach, but they did begin to recruit black athletes. 50:00And obviously we have in Tubby Smith, an outstanding gentleman. We had an African-American in, what’s, Maddox, can’t remember her first name. Coach Maddox who was the women’s coach. A lot of progress, still a lot to be down, but a lot of progress made. And I think all of us that were involved in The Kernel at that time, were glad to be part of it and think we did, hopefully, have something to do with starting it.

WHITE: Let me just ask you one or two more things. And that is, there are a couple of editorial writers. Somebody named Stephen Palmer...

GUTHRIE: Yes.

WHITE: ...wrote the editorial about James Meredith. Do you remember anything about, for instance, was he specifically an editorial writer?

GUTHRIE: Yes, Steve was an editorial writer.

WHITE: And did you make the assignments?

GUTHRIE: Oh boy. I think we’d sit around and talk about it and whoever had the time, you write this one, you write that one, or depending on maybe what your interest may have been. Steve, I believe at that time, was also was in Law School. 51:00And I’m looking at him here. That was his, if you will, his contribution to The Kernel was to be an editorial writer. And there were some other ones. What other names did you...?

WHITE: Well, somebody named Peter Jones, who was apparently from New Jersey...

GUTHRIE: Yes, that’s the name I was trying to think of, Peter.

WHITE: ...was the one who wrote the editorial about withdrawing from the SEC.

GUTHRIE: Peter was assigned that particular editorial to write. And he was the one who did it. Peter is now working in New York on uh, Scholastic magazine, I think, and still in journalism. And I haven’t seen Peter since we both left.

WHITE: Do you remember if you had any particular considerations about why you would pick somebody to write an editorial or was it just a matter of it being somebody’s turn and they had the time?

GUTHRIE: No, I think probably the way we did it at that time, somebody that really had an interest and somebody that wanted to do it. You had to feel, I think especially an editorial. Now there were other editorials, yeah, I’m going to do the one on the Homecoming deal and somebody else is going to do the welcome back to campus. I mean it’s simple. But if you had 52:00something that you felt very passionately about, you would select....And we would talk about what’s our position on it. In other words, its not that editorial writer. We did not sign our editorials. So it was the staff, the editor-staff, that made the decision on what the position should be. And then that particular writer would try their hand at writing it that way. And then it would be turned in. Some of them we would edit, some we would not, depending. But we were all pretty much of a same mind, I think. And we had come up the two previous years, we sort of all grown up. And that was our, I don’t know, it was a community, a family itself. You’ll find, I don’t know whether it’s true in other universities. I would think it was. That you spent more time working on the college newspaper than you did anything else, besides going to class. And you became very close and it was your own social organization as well. So all of those people, we’d drink beer with and run around with. So. But it was Peter Jones that did write the initial...

WHITE: Also, do you have an idea as to why, 53:00I mean, you made sure that you fed the articles to the man at the American Press. I mean, Associated Press. Who then had the ability to send it around the world. But do you have any idea why this, why what The Kernel was doing, captivated as many people as it did? In other words, it seemed to have made quite a splash.

GUTHRIE: Well, I think it made quite a splash because of the timing, too. Because of the NCAA, and it being held in Kentucky, the finals, that year. I’d have to go look and see who played in it that year. Boy, that would have been sixty-three, I’m not sure off hand. But there were undoubtedly black athletes that were going to be on the basketball court. And you know, you had columns, this was the one in Jackson, Mississippi ( ) The Commercial Appeal. I think that’s somewhere in Mississippi. No, it’s Columbus, Mississippi. Where it said, maybe Kentucky should lead SEC for Negroes. It says, “we see where the editor of the UK student newspaper has advocated the withdrawal of the university from the South Eastern Conference for the express purpose of recruiting Negro athletes. 54:00This was bound to happen in the not too distance future. Kentucky along with a couple of other ( ) universities in the conference have been the doormats of their big brothers on the bottom of the Dixie dozen. Maybe it’s time that they should get out.” WHITE: But they did it simply to announce that they would play black athletes.

GUTHRIE: Yes.

WHITE: But then apparently the scholarships were not going to kick in for another year or so.

GUTHRIE: Another three to four years.

WHITE: Was that a legitimate issue, I mean could they have changed that? Were they stalling or was it pretty much...

GUTHRIE: No, I think it was probably a legitimate issue to do it...

WHITE: ...locked in place.

GUTHRIE: ...in a time and fashion that you still did have some doubting Thomases, and some that didn’t....But if it was done in the process of normal campus activities where you did not have to change governing regulations, you did not have to change bond issues or any of that nature. You just eventually folded it, you know, folded it in. I think, again though, being gone. I wish I could have been around some of the Trustee meetings at that point to see. But there’s one Trustees that’s quoted in one of these editorials, I think. A fellow by the name of Sammy ( ), who was actually a labor leader. He was the 55:00AFL/CIO leader in Louisville, who was a Trustee, that made the comment here. “It is past time that the University lived up to its moral obligation.” I thought that was interesting, too. Here you have, it’s not the businessman or the professional man. It is a labor leader that was quoted. And Sammy ( ) was a character. I remember I used to cover some of the Trustee meetings in my time. So for him to speak out, was excellent.

WHITE: Did you ever consider seriously staying in Journalism or were you always destined for public life?

GUTHRIE: Oh that’s a good question. Actually when I went out. I remember my senior year and we all would interview. I had an opportunity to interview with the Associated Press and there was a night radio writer’s job open here in Louisville. Believe it or not, The Voice of Saint Mathews came back and offered me the editorship. They would pay me more than ten cents an inch. Even the mayor ( ) Bernie ( ) talked to me one weekend when I was home. He wanted me to take that job. And The Cincinnati Enquirer had place reporters open. 56:00I had been working on campus ( ) for Phillip Morris. You know Phillip Morris ( ) the guy with the cigarette controversy. ( ) And I came to New York for an interview. ( ) I looked at the pay scale, ( ) plus some other things I was doing and ( ). My position on this issue ( ). Being able to plan and execute and create different ( ) was exciting. And Phillip Morris offered me the chance to come to New York and I took it. And the rest of it is history. ( ). I chair the Kentucky Journalism Hall of Fame Selection Committee. So I still maintain a very close relationship between the professions. 57:00( ) WHITE: Well, do you think there’s anything we’ve missed on the story of The Kernel and civil rights?

GUTHRIE: That’s probably it. ( ) It was an interesting time for The Kernel and across the rest of Kentucky.

WHITE: Well, thank you.

(The tape burbled very badly the last three pages.) END OF TAPE TWO SIDE TWO END OF INTERVIEW