Oral History Interview with Ted Braun

ETHEL WHITE: This is a conversation with the Reverend Theodore Braun, who goes by the name of Ted. I am here with him and his wife, Donna, in my home at 600 Sunset Road in Louisville, Kentucky. It is September 19, 2001. My name is Ethel White. If we could, Ted, I’d like to start with some, uh, brief biography, on your part. Where were you born, how did you come to be in the ministry and what brought you to, ah, the Henderson area?

THEODORE BRAUN: I was born in St. Louis, Missouri in 1927 and grew up there through grade school. My parents moved to Philadelphia when I finished grade school, and went junior high and senior high. And during senior high the last year, 1:00we moved back to St. Louis again. So I was growing up there. My dad was a pastor, my grandfather was also a pastor in St. Louis so I came out of a clergy heritage. Uh. . . My parents were always very interested in race relations, human relations, and were active in –ah. . . what was back in the early days fellowship church events where blacks and whites would come together once a month on Sunday afternoons just for worship and fellowship. My dad after being pastor was in charge of the Christian Education program for lay people in our denomination and he was putting on leadership training schools in the summertime around the country, and he always tried to have, uh, black resource people and teachers at these, uh. . . we’d always have black people, African-Americans 2:00in our home, so I was very comfortable with this. And my mother, who was educated as a dietician before she was married, and then after we had grown up she went to seminary and got her degree at the Center in St. Louis for Christian Education.

WHITE: So we, can we interject, or can I ask if this was the Evangelical and Reformed Church?

BRAUN: Evangelic and Reformed Church, which later on became the United Church of Christ. And in books that we read at home and in, uh, teaching, she always, they both managed to have, uh, black models in there like George Washington Carver and others that were heroes to them, and became to me, too.

WHITE: Um, so, it was a natural thing for you to decide to enter the seminary, is that correct?

BRAUN: Um, I had always 3:00thought of that, because seeing the pastoral ministry from inside, from my grandfather and father and relatives were in this, it appealed to me. For a while I was interested in journalism and also in taking biology, because I was specially interested; but pastoral ministry won out there.

WHITE: Did you do anything with journalism? In school or anything like that?

BRAUN: I took a journalism class in high school, and started writing there. Both parents were writers, editors, so maybe I picked up some genes and chromosomes that way as well as being with them.

WHITE: Okay. But the Seminary won out.

BRAUN: Yes. Uh-huh. I went to Elmhurst College, Pre-Theological courses. I studied, 4:00my major was sociology, which was an excellent preparation for later on. In Seminary I majored in the Old Testament. Especially in the prophets, which was another good preparation. Boy that was a great combination. Because later on in the 1960s, when Liberation Theology became a theological force in, all around the world. I was, well backgrounded for that.

WHITE: And when did you finish the seminary?

BRAUN: Nineteen fifty I graduated.

WHITE: And that was what year—I mean, not what year, which seminary?

BRAUN: Eden Seminary in St. Louis.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: From there I went up to Chicago as assistant pastor in a city church. I had received a graduate studies scholarship award in Seminary, so after that I went to Yale Divinity 5:00and got an S.D.M., a Master’s in Sacred Theology. After that I was back in St. Louis in my parent’s home looking around for a church. And, um, Christian Sentry had at that time a back page column written by Hal Lacock, who was a professor and a Methodist minister, called “Simeon-Stylites” Named after one of these early Christian hermits who lived on top of a pillar, so, this was Simian Style Lights at the top of his column. But this, uh, I received a call one evening from a minister in Indianapolis, who needed help for two months because he had cancer, and had an assistant coming but needed somebody to help him over the time. And I wasn’t too interested in going to a place just for a couple months, 6:00I wanted to get going. But the column, Christian Sentry, came just several days before this, with a column by Hal Lacock entitled Indianapolis. And he talked about Katharine Hepburn, who used to have stage fright, believe it or not, and she would say to herself, “These are my friends in Indianapolis,” and she’d move on from that. And the end of this column said, “On to Indianapolis!” So I said to him, “I’ll come.” So we went there and had a very wonderful relationship to him and to the church. And this was Donna’s home church; and—my wife—and, uh, she was in her last year at Indiana University, studying to be a Primary School, uh, teacher. And, uh, she was home practice teaching while I was there, and uh, we had our first date at the end of the first month, 7:00and in the second month we were engaged, so it worked very fast, but. . . I wrote back to Hal Lacock, who I’d had as a professor and said, “That this has all happened from his column,” and he was delighted. And from there I went down to Henderson, Kentucky.

WHITE: Now how did that come about?

BRAUN: Well, I was looking for a church, and I was actually considering two, one in Detroit, one in Henderson. Detroit sort of appealed to me because I’d always lived in large cities. But after interviews and everything, they weren’t ready to sign yet. And Henderson was, so I went down there. And it turned out to be a very happy relationship there.

WHITE: That was–so, so you got to Henderson what year?

BRAUN: ‘Fifty-three.

WHITE: And—what did you, what was your first impression of Henderson? How would you typify, or how would you have typified, 8:00that first year? That new community of yours.

BRAUN: It was a very historic town. John James Audubon lived there for a while. His grain mill on the river went bankrupt because he was out painting birds. W. C. Handy lived there for a while, found his wife there. The particular church it’d we’d belonged to, Zion Evangelical Reform Church, was formed in 1871 by the German community there. And that was a difficulty later on, because during the time of the racial turmoil in town the people, some of the people would say to me, “We’ve always been known as a little German church, and now we’ll be known as a nigger-loving church.” And these were the ones that, you know, were against this kind of, ah, involvement. 9:00WHITE: These were your own church members?

BRAUN: Yes. Not the majority, we’ll talk about this a bit more, but, ah, these were some more vocal ones that were afraid, as were most people in town, during these events. I’ll talk about later on in ’56. But it was a very warm community, a congregation. I came to love them very much.

WHITE: Did you detect any kind of insular attitudes or, ultra-conservative, “We like life the way it is”, was there – did any of that . . .um. . .?

BRAUN: Well, there was generally . . .

WHITE: Was any of that apparent, in the beginning?

BRAUN: I think so. Ah, that was generally in town. Sumpter Logan, who came about the same time, Presbyterian minister—I was twenty-seven or eight and he was fifty-five—and well—It was just wonderful, meeting each other. 10:00We found all kind of affinities. And he had sort of a prophetic viewpoint too. Although his background was quite different. But–he often talked about the feeling down there, “If it moves, hit it!” (Laughs) “We want things just as they are.” And in the newspaper collection I have, you pick up this every once in a while, people say, you know, ah, especially strong feelings about reporters coming down or people, outsiders, “we’ve done okay, here, what are you coming down and stirring things up?” Saying, “It’s their fault, and not anything new. It hasn’t to do with us.” WHITE: Well since you’ve mentioned Sumpter Logan and since he, I assume, is going to be part of the story … BRAUN: Yes.

WHITE: Um, where had he come from, and you said there were some differences in background …?

BRAUN: Yeah, he came from, I think, Tulsa, Oklahoma, or somewhere. He came to a Southern 11:00Presbyterian Church that was very conservative.

WHITE: The one in Henderson.

BRAUN: In Henderson, yes. And, um, he had a varied background. He had been in the Navy, and he had been a cowboy. I think, the Ku Klux Klan had been born, or developed in his grandfather’s house down South somewhere in that state. I forget which, Alabama or Mississippi, and perhaps this is one reason the church is one thing he was especially, you know, the thing he was compatible.

WHITE: Why did he think he was compatible, in other words, why did he come?

BRAUN: I’m not sure whether I can answer that at this point.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: I’m not sure whether, we might have talked about it, but I don’t remember at all. But he was a very stimulating guy. Fearless. When he became President of the 12:00Ministerial Association, first thing we realized was that the Minister’s Association was segregated; there weren’t any black ministers in it. So we went out and invited all the black ministers to join. Um, that was, ah, a wonderful thing that happened, because this laid the groundwork for what happened later on. Which we didn’t realize that--to have an integrated minister’s group.

WHITE: Well then let me, because that was not apparent from the—reading these clippings. The Ministerial Association already existed, this was not something being formed?

BRAUN: Yes, it already . . .

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: And then we discovered that the Carnegie Public Library was segregated. Blacks couldn’t use it. We were just talking to black people about this. So we took Austin Bell, who was Vice President, and ah, Sumpter and I and 13:00asked about this: “Why?” And sort of hinted that we’d be taking action, maybe later on, and they opened up immediately.

WHITE: And this was before the school desegregation?

BRAUN: Before Brown. Mmm-hmm. So, some groundwork was laid there. Happily, he was, Sumpter was President, I was Secretary-Treasurer. So, we had sort of the access to the power of the Association at that point.

WHITE: Um, what else? You were there about two years before these articles begin on the school, ah, desegregation events. What other—you talk about laying the groundwork by going to the Library. Um, what else did you do? 14:00And let me also ask you, um, did you ever—did you feel any need to tread a little bit lightly and ease your way into things; or, or, were your feelings of the prophetic ministry strong enough so you, you made it fairly clear from the beginning that you felt change needed to happen?

BRAUN: That’s difficult to answer. My feeling was always that it had to be very nuanced. Uh, I know some, from some--college and others, you know, if you’re going like a bulldozer it’s no good at all. And, uh, out of a love of people and so a consideration, and picking up signs: so you try to deal with it individually and as a group. And it’s a growing process, of both the minister and the congregation. I think living together, 15:00coming to trust each other, and so on. So we had a lot of--we had some years of experience there. And we had a wonderful experience just before where we decided to have a German high school student, an exchange student, living in our home. [Rumble as microphone is moved.] And, uh, this was our first child: to have a 15-year-old join us. And it was a wonderful experience, for us and for the congregation. And he—he lived with us for a year. And we’ve kept contact with him over the years. He went back to Germany, he became a professor—became an architect and a Professor of Architecture and Stuttgart University. Now he’s retired. But we’ve been 16:00to see him several times, and he’s been back to visit us once. And we took him to Henderson where they had a big pot luck, and had a wonderful time.

WHITE: Now what, what made that experience wonderful? Other than, I assume he was a, a good guy?

BRAUN: Yeah. He was just very winsome—he became very popular at school, ah, the congregation delighted in him. Ah, just, the chemistry was good.

WHITE: Now did you arrange for this or was this something, part of the school program and you stepped forward to be his. . .host.

BRAUN: No, no. There were several programs in the country at that time that brought students over. Brethren had one, Michigan State Council of Churches had one. If I remember correctly [to his wife, Donna] was this ICYE—an International Christian Youth Exchange? I forget where or what he became … DONNA BRAUN: I thought he came over with the Brethren. His brother came over from the Michigan County.

BRAUN: Okay, he came over 17:00with the Brethren program. So I’m not sure how we latched on to that one. But, ah, . . . So then . . .

WHITE: Well then, backtrack … BRAUN: So along the way there were times, you know, good common experiences with a congregation like this. Plus the fact … WHITE: So, so, okay--go ahead.

BRAUN: Plus the fact that we had pot lucks once a month or twice a month, and these were always great events. And people loved to cook and eat so then, cooking. . . and I discovered very quickly when I was going through the line people were watching me to see what I’d pick. And what I’d enjoy, so I made sure to have a little bit of everything. (Chuckles, also Donna chuckles) That was quite a bit of, ah, sensitivity that I needed to have there.

WHITE: Okay, well so then I think I asked you two or three questions at once, so back to one of them, which was--um, what, besides going to the Library and dropping your hints, 18:00what other things before the school desegregation events. . . Do you remember anything else sort of concrete about trying to change, (clears throat) excuse me, help create change, or …?

BRAUN: No.

WHITE: Or was it just a matter of what you believed, and how you carried yourself and just talking to people?

BRAUN: Mm-hmm. When we first moved to Henderson, there was a black minister who was pastor of First Baptist Church, who was T. R. Brown. Theodore R. Brown, B-r-o-w-n. And mine was Theodore A. B-r-a-u-n. And we started getting each other’s mail. So we’d take it over to each other and got to know each other there. Although I think my closest relationship was to Austin Bell, who was Vice President, he was pastor of the Baptist Church in Clay Street. But just a wonderful person.

WHITE: Also 19:00 black?

BRAUN: Black, yes. And, uh, back in those days most everything was segregated. We’d have our meetings and, uh, in the one of the hotels, I guess in an old YMCA room or something there. But it was, years after we had moved away we came back to visit, and Austin Bell took us, Donna and me, to Holiday Inn Restaurant to have a meal together. Which we couldn’t have had back then: so it was a very symbolic and heartwarming moment together.

WHITE: Alright, well, uh, what—let’s, let’s spend, um … BRAUN: Well, one more thing.

WHITE: Yeah, okay.

BRAUN: There’s a blacksmith across the street from our parsonage. And we often went over there just to talk to him and greet him. 20:00And this is sort of an old-time blacksmith there--he was there. . . and, uh, this is another wonderful contact. We had a black, uh, janitor, custodian at the church. And, uh, his name was Willy Higgins. And we always referred to him as Mr. Higgins. And a couple church members came up to us one time, said, “You shouldn’t call him Mr. Higgins. You should call him Willy.” And we kept calling him Mr. Higgins.

WHITE: What did you say to them when they said that?

BRAUN: Um, I don’t really remember whether we just thanked them or saying, “I disagree, you know, to us he’s Mr. Higgins,” 21:00as we’d refer to anybody. I don’t rightly remember that point.

DONNA BRAUN: We, we didn’t come from a background where we called black people by their first names. You know, it was, to us it was just a common courtesy to call him Mr. Higgins.

BRAUN: Yeah, we discovered in Henderson. . .

DONNA BRAUN: . . . it was a custom. . .

BRAUN: They were very formal out in public, ah, like, Austin Bell would always call his--refer to his parishioners as Mr. or Mrs. And this was, ah, I think, general throughout the South, among the black community, to affirm this element of dignity, humanity, about each other. That was refused by the society around about. So often, you know, they’d call them by their first names or “Auntie,” or something like this: and this is always very demeaning, we knew. We called Austin by his first name, but only after 22:00we came to know him very well. And it was interesting, he came to our door one time—our parsonage was next door to the church. Church was on one side, and there was a furniture factory on the other side. Which was--sometimes the blowers wouldn’t work right and they’d throw sawdust out (he and Donna Braun chuckle), and we’d get sawdust over the parsonage floors and uh. . . Before we got married I sent Donna a little packet of sawdust and said, “This is from a square inch”—(Donna chuckles)—“we’re the only church with a genuine sawdust trail.” But one time Austin came to our parsonage to see me about something, he came around to the back door. I said, “Austin, you’re supposed to come to the front door, as everybody knows.” So, before they knew us, they were very ingrained with these Southern 23:00. . . ah, habits. Henderson did not have a black district like others, towns, so a--Sturgis had a Box Town which was a black area--Box Town, which was my theory of . . . they had some collections of blacks, but in the South, we discovered that blacks could live next door to whites. Because of the class structure and racial structure that they—they had a certain place. Which was established when they were slaves, living next door to the big house and so on. And in Henderson this structure was carried on. Where whites--and blacks could be around, pretty close to whites, because they maintained their place. But if they lived as equal neighbors, this was very threatening to the whites. It was fascinating to see. Although there were certain streets that had more preponderance of blacks, and that was 24:00natural to the group. But when I went down to Sturgis they had a special area called “Box Town.” WHITE: Well, let’s, ah, talk about the ah, events, then, the school desegregation events. It seems to start in, ah, 1955.

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: Ah, In the summer of ’55, is that right?

BRAUN: Ah, ‘fifty-six.

DONNA BRAUN: No, it would have had to be ’55.

BRAUN: Fifty-five.

WHITE: There seem to be some – BRAUN: Well, okay – WHITE: I didn’t understand this, the article seemed to have several things about, uh, the conferences with the NAACP, BRAUN: Yeah, ah … WHITE: . . And local officials--but then the schools didn’t desegregate for a year, is that right?

BRAUN: Yeah, James Clancy was head of the NAACP. And apparently, we weren’t aware of it much except through these newspaper articles. They had gone to the school board to ask their plans 25:00about desegregation. And pushing toward that. I wasn’t involved in any of that and wasn’t too aware of that, but that came out. And apparently that was shuttered off to that next year. Desegregation really didn’t start in the South until ‘56, two years after the Board versus Brown, Supreme Court ruling.

WHITE: Alright, well, then, why don’t we take it from your first involvement and, if there’s any background of that you can fill it in.

BRAUN: Okay, in the fall of ‘56 I kept reading in the paper—it started out in Mansfield, Texas. Some, uh, turmoil in this first year of desegregation. Then in Clinton, Tennessee, and then it came up into Kentucky, Sturgis and Clay. Sturgis was first then Clay. Ah, Sturgis had decided 26:00to open up the high school to desegregation. And they had seven or eight students come and. . . Henderson had a different approach where they started with the lower grades, first to third, I think in only one school, maybe, a couple, but . . . ( ) ( ). So the Henderson approach was twelve years; Sturgis was immediate. So, I started reading the paper about, ah, people gathering around the high school in Sturgis, trying to prevent seven or eight high school kids, black kids, from going to school there. And Happy Chandler, who was Governor, sent down National Guard from Henderson and three tanks, I think. Just, that, wow, 27:00I—I decided to go down, just to observe. So I put on—I wo—I knew how people were—I put on old clothes to be there. And I drove down one day and, I was just –appalled and astonished at the raw hatred there. Little buzz groups of people standing around the, uh, uh, trying to get to the black kids first before the police or the National Guard could stop them. To attack them, tear them apart. I suspect to kill every kid. And I knew that—but this was, ah, my first experience— WHITE: This was to get to the kids, the black kids.

BRAUN: To the black kids, before they could go into the high school. And is was my first experience: first hand with sort of this demonic element in people where they could be so, 28:00uh, turned by this hatred that they’d do something like that. You could just feel it round about.

WHITE: Can you describe anything else you saw? Any other sights or …?

BRAUN: No, no.

WHITE: And you mostly observed.

BRAUN: Yes.

WHITE: Okay. At that point.

BRAUN: I did take a camera down and I took some pictures very carefully. Ah, but not very obviously because I knew that they had very strong feelings against reporters and photographers and . . . anybody who was an outsider. And I decided to go into the black section, Box Town, to make contact with some black pastors. “‘Cause,” I said, “I can find out more, and have some fellowship with them, give them some support.” So I drove down in to Box Town, 29:00and asked one of the first passers-by, “Is there a pastor near here?” And he said, “You’re in front of his—one of the houses there,” there were five or six there. And most of the pastors there had other jobs during the week. They were coal miners, a lot of them, this one especially. Ah, he just happened to be home. This was Reverend Howard. And I went up to the door and knocked, and he happened to be home: which was wonderful. And I introduced myself and he invited me in. And we had a wonderful visit, conversation. I was the first white person that had had any contact with him through this turmoil. He turned out to have one or two children in this high school group. And, uh, he called another pastor, 30:00Shelby Garnett, who came over later on to visit. He had, this other guy had a child in there, too, a daughter, I think. And it was interesting that, here we’re sitting in the living room, under Solomon’s Head of Christ on the wall, sharing, and talking together. And it was a wonderful visit. It took a lot of guts to invite this strange man in, because the night before he’d said--I think his wife came in for part of this conversation, Jenny, who’s name ( ). “The night before,” his wife said, “the Council had driven through the Box Town area, in a sort of parade, with lights on and horns, uh, honking, and epithets and so on, trying to intimidate the people there.” So that next day, just by happenstance, 31:00this white guy shows up at his door. And it wasn’t until years later, where Donna and I stopped by, say two years ago to visit, Jenny, and she was so excited, she had her relatives to come over, and her kids, two daughters here in town. She was saying how much this meant, not only to them, but the whole community, to have this happen, everybody knew about it. And it was a great, uh, strengthening moment for them and symbol, which I hadn’t realized at all.

WHITE: You mean your original visit? Your … BRAUN: Which original visit?

WHITE: Not your revisiting two years ago?

BRAUN: No, no. So, uh, I went back home. And then I talked to Sumpter, and next visit he came down with me, 32:00and I introduced him to Howard and so on. And I figured how many times we came down, I think it might had been just this one; but, ah, this was an experience where, um, there was an article in the paper about that. We had been with the crowds around the Box ( )--mob scene and there happened to be a Filipino soldier, a G. I. from Fort Campbell there, helping to drive the black kids through the crowds into the high school. This had been done by some black parents also, but his day he happened to be there. Sort of a little car. And he came to a stop sign, and, uh, the crowd kind of converged on him; and he--he didn’t stop very well and pulled on through. And he was arrested by the police for going through a stop sign without stopping. And 33:00he was taken to the Magistrate’s Court, which is the police station. And Sumpter and I--and we had a Vanderbilt University student, a theological student, with us at that time--and we went along and were in the crowd in the Magistrate’s room. And, uh, he was fined ten dollars and the costs five dollars; ( ) cost fifteen dollars, which he didn’t have at all. And we had a quick consultation, and Sumpter went up and, ah, we said we’d share the fee. And Sumpter paid the fifteen dollars on behalf of three of us. And you could just. . .

END TAPE ONE SIDE ONE BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO WHITE: Okay, just in case that was bitten off you said that, “You could feel the anger.” BRAUN: You could just feel the anger in the room, and when we left we thought it’d be the better part of wisdom to head home at that point. 34:00So we went to the car--Sumpter was driving at that point--and as we drove through the streets of town on to the highway back to Henderson; we noticed a car following us. And we didn’t know what was going to happen at that point, whether they had guns, or were they going to drive us off the road, or what. So, Sumpter, being a very good driver, stepped on the speedometer and out-sped them. And promptly they gave up. But we felt quite relieved when we got back to Henderson at that point. So that was an experience there. I don’t remember much about what happened after that. I think the students finally kept out by court order because the school board had not had a previous plan of integration, and because of this, 35:00uh, their, their desegregation effort was denied. And it was denied, I guess, until the following year, when it began. And on this last visit two years ago where we talked to a daughter, she was saying that, “Well, things were qu--a lot more improved in Sturgis,” but she says, “underneath there are still a lot of problems.” WHITE: Now.

BRAUN: Now. And we didn’t get to talk about that too much. I think that would be true with many parts in our country, where maybe legally you have one thing but underneath, where people’s hearts are involved and so on, prejudices, it—it takes a while. My dad’s family was always quite open, I know. 36:00Mom grew up in Texas, and her parents had very strong feelings about blacks and Mexicans. And Mom—there was a break between the generations--Mom was always very pro, or very open to this kind of relationship. And I don’t know whether it was going to--finishing high school in St. Louis. In Texas, her own high school, in a small town had just eleven grades—or going to college, or what. Her first dietician job was in Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, where she was working with a lot of the returning Generals and higher echelon. And she got very strong anti-war feelings from that experience. Just what, what war had done to these men, both physically and mentally. So I don’t know, you know, 37:00how she became so open. I never saw any kind of prejudice there. It was a wonderful home to grow up in, with this.

WHITE: Well how was it with, uh, their friends and your friends. I mean, were you the odd people out?

BRAUN: Where?

WHITE: Or, were you--this was growing up, I mean, I’m just … BRAUN: Oh, oh.

WHITE: I’m, I’m, you talked about, it was a wonderful home, and I was just curious about whether, uh, your surrounding community was in sync or whether you were unusual. . .

BRAUN: Surroundings were the same, because most of our friends were people who were working in, ah, church work, denominational work and so on. We lived about a mile from the seminary, and a lot of my friends, my dad’s friends were professors there. It was the same kind of community.

WHITE: Okay, well back to Kentucky.

BRAUN: Mm-hmm. 38:00WHITE: Um, is , is there at this point more to say about Sturgis, or do we move over to Clay and of course to Henderson. How, how, what’s the best way to proceed now?

BRAUN: I think that’s enough for Sturgis, uh, Clay … WHITE: For now.

BRAUN: Clay was—I didn’t have too much contact down there. I just included that in the, in the collection of clippings there because that was part of the story.

WHITE: And these were all going on simultaneously, right?

BRAUN: Yes, ah, yeah, Yeah. And that was the context. We tried to—Sumpter and I tried to interpret this Sturgis thing to the people in Henderson just as a report; which the editor, who was quite open to, uh, letting us to have access to the paper this way, which was good. She ran that as an editorial.

WHITE: Ran? Your writing? 39:00BRAUN: Our—our combined article, about this.

WHITE: Okay—so when you say you tried to interpret the Sturgis thing in Henderson, you meant largely through that article?

BRAUN: Through that article, to the community, just to have a different voice there.

WHITE: Did you get any response?

BRAUN: I don’t remember any.

WHITE: Ah, were you involved in any of the events in Henderson, which seemed to be focused on Weaverton?

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: Did you, were you involved in that?

BRAUN: Integration began in Weaverton school, which is on the southern edge of Henderson, ah. . . I think they integrated the first three grades down there. And the White Citizens’ Council, 40:00uh, called a meeting on a Saturday evening in the cour—in the courtroom, on the second floor of the courthouse: to organize a White Citizens’ Council meeting to oppose the integration of schools in Henderson in the Weaverton School. And it was at that point that the minister’s group started, got it together and got into action. Sumpter called a meeting.

WHITE: Of the Ministerial. . .

BRAUN: Of the Ministerial Association. And the out-come of that meeting was to attend, as a minister’s group, at that White Citizens’ council meeting; and to have Sumpter present a statement in favor of continuing desegregation; of supporting this development at the Weaverton school, that he was going to write. And 41:00we all agreed--there must have been a dozen people there, representing most of the denominations in Henderson. So, I forget what time the meeting started, maybe seven o’clock; and we all went upstairs, had a huge American flag in front--and the meeting started. We got there quite early, because we wanted to get seats; we knew it was going to be crowded. And we got the first two rows of seats: we were up there. And it was, uh, an organizational meeting, kind of a pep talk, all this stuff about how desegregation was wrong, against the Bible, against human nature, against everything. At the end Sumpter got up and asked to read a statement, from us, the group. At first they were a bit leery, but they decided well, to do it, so. 42:00And he got most of the way through his statement when they had enough. They started booing, and the meeting broke up at that point. And then, the next day, ah, the White Citizens’ Council sent a sound-truck through town, urging the parents to keep their kids from going. Attendance was down quite a bit. And they called—and then we started putting ads in the paper, and also spot announcements on the radio. The head of the radio, the owner of the radio was a member of the Sumpter’s church, as was the newspaper editor, that was interesting, it was—it was the class for, ah, the upper class church. Except for the Episcopalians there. But, ah, . . . the White Citizens’ Council called another 43:00meeting, a second meeting, to help this process along. At the courthouse again, but outside, where the meeting couldn’t be interrupted, or . . . for a Tuesday night. And we decided to have a parents meeting at the same time. And we got the names from the school, of all the parents who had their kids coming, to invite them to this meeting at our church. In our church, which is, uh, two or three blocks from the courthouse. And ah, a lot of parents couldn’t come on such short notice, but they were all encouraged by the fact that we were having a meeting. And we had it in our sanctuary, and, ah, had the Chief of Police there, and the Superintendent of Schools. Our process 44:00was to just ask parents to share why they were having their kids come to school.

WHITE: These were white parents?

BRAUN: These were white parents. You know. And I’m not clear whether we had the black parents—I think we had some black parents there, too. And they got up to share why their kids were going. And people could ask them, well, why are you sending your kids to school, so that they could share and have this time. You could feel this be resolved. And after the meeting, uh, we went up into the Fellowship hall for coffee and cookies and fellowship. And, there—we had feedback from parents who were so grateful for meeting like this. The next day the attendance started going up. 45:00WHITE: How many parents do you think came?

BRAUN: I think we had, uh, maybe fifty, sixty. I don’t right remember.

WHITE: And what percentage, I mean--this is--it’s been years, but – do you remember roughly what percentage of the white parents were going at, say, the day that you had that meeting at night?

BRAUN: No, I don’t know if the figures are in the paper, I know some place may have some figures.

WHITE: I-I think there are some in there. . .

BRAUN: But I’m not sure. And it was interesting. We went out to the Weaverton schools, just to keep—look--keep track of things. And when the White Citizens’ Council asked the Principal what the figure was, and it’d gone up; and they couldn’t believe their ears, and they demanded the right to count the kids themselves. 46:00And I forget whether the Principal gave that to them or not, I suspect he did the first time. And then again, the next day, the attendance was going up a bit more. And meanwhile the sound-truck was going in that we had in there spot announcements and stuff. And then, uh, they had another meeting, outside on the next Saturday, White Citizens’ Council, this was their third meeting. So we had our second meeting at our church again. Well, we had a lot more this time. Same process—sharing, and fellowship afterwards. And after that the attendance jumped quite a bit. And that seemed to break the whole thing. And, uh. 47:00. . I guess, well, things, things pretty well quieted down; and Weaverton integration continued. And some--I hadn’t asked permission from the Church Council to have these parents’ meetings here, because I said these were sponsored by the minister’s groups: these had to do with the work of the ecumenical church, and so on.

WHITE: You mean, you had not requested, requested permission from the Ministerial Association?

BRAUN: From, from our Church Council to have these meetings in our church sanctuary.

WHITE: Okay, the Church Council is the governing body of your congregation.

BRAUN: Yes. Yeah. Ah, the church organist and one of the chief, 48:00ah, leaders of the--the Choir Director, I guess--lived next door to the church. And we could see this Choir Director walking up and down the sidewalk outside, looking in. So Sunday, I had preached a sermon—at the end of this whole week: where we were getting threats and she was home where she noticed things--Mobs, Millstones and Muddy Religion was my topic.

WHITE: Mobs, Millstones and Muddy Religion?

BRAUN: I was using the text where Jesus says to--if you …cause anyone to stumble, we better have millstone feet under our neck and thrown into the water, or something like that. And it was having to do with how the kids weren’t disturbed by integration but by these mobs and by the threats and everything. By 49:00the hatred. But at the end of the service, the president of our congregation got up and said, “I call a congregational meeting. I’ve had a lot of complaints about the minister’s behavior this last week. Let’s talk about it.” Silence! And finally two or three members got up and spoke on my behalf. To say, “We think the minister has done exactly what he should have done, that we were proud.” Took a lot of courage at that point. But after these two or three got up, nothing else. Finally the meeting was closed. And if I’d been up on my constitution, it was illegal to have a meeting like that, without two weeks’ notice and so--but it was good that it happened. And 50:00it was only—not until—not until, uh, some years later when Wolfgang, this international student came back, and we had that potluck meal that I discovered that the president of the congregation at that time had been a member of the Ku Klux Klan. So—that was part of the dynamics that I was unaware of. He was owner of the tinsmith shop in town. But it--to illustrate how a guy like this is able to grow, uh, many years later, the congregation called a gay pastor to be there. And, uh, this gay pastor had grown up in Henderson, in the Methodist Church, had gone to Vanderbilt, and come back. 51:00There were by this time about fifteen old-timers left, including this guy. Ku Klux Klan guy. Who had stuck through this, and these fifteen old-timers loved this gay guy. He was a charismatic, tremendous musician. And this old guy, who was up in his nineties already, rang the bell every Sunday morning to call the people there. And were supportive and so—this is great. That was the second Sunday. At the first Sunday of the week, I need to go back, because this was after the meeting of the White Citizens’ Council inside the courtroom. For the first meeting. A year before, I’d been at a summer conference where Chester Marcus, a black pastor of our denomination 52:00and Head of the Race Relations Department, had given Bible study about the Church as the Body of Christ. I said, “Chester, this is tremendous stuff. Will you come to Henderson sometime and share with our congregation this?” And he said, Looking in his book, “I have one Sunday available this coming year, this September.” It turned out to be the day after the first White Citizens’ Council meeting. I left the meeting in the courthouse to go to the train station to pick him up. He said, “It was the first time that he ever pulled somebody out of a White Citizens’ Council meeting.” (chuckles) And I was very apprehensive. I had announced to the congregation before that he was coming, and they were very happy. I had not mentioned that he was black, because I said, “I don’t make exceptions, I never say that about white people, why should I have to say that about another person?” But one person who had been at a conference 53:00with Chester, who liked him, was a bit disturbed, uncomfortable that I hadn’t mentioned that he was dark, black. So the Sunday before he came, I said to the congregation, “There’s--I’ve given most of the main facts about him, there’s one maybe you should know, that his skin color’s darker than mine. But I know this won’t make any difference to you, I know you’ll all be there.” So Sunday morning comes and it rains.

DONNA BRAUN: Buckets.

BRAUN: Buckets. And I said, “Oh my gosh. Some people won’t be able to come to church now, because of the rain.” So I called up some friends and said, “Will you come down, just to be there?” But most of the people showed up. It was a great experience. But it’s interesting that--the way things come together like that. That--the first Sunday he was there. 54:00The second Sunday was this Mob, Millstone and Muddy Religion thing ( ) After this week, ah, Sumpter had a very hard time. Uh, he was actually kicked out. Ah, I don’t know if he was asked to resign or what. But he went to Utah to a mission congregation and went up to Alaska and things. But, ah, he couldn’t remain anymore. And at their farewell, they gave him a new Chevrolet. Talking about good gifts.

WHITE: Well can I … BRAUN: But they would never have done this to me. Uh— WHITE: Now “they” – we’re talking two different congregations— BRAUN: Okay, yes, my congregation would not have done it to me. 55:00I, I didn’t lose members over this, I know. But I felt things sort of stopped. I had been there five years.

WHITE: You did, you did lose members?

BRAUN: No, we did not. It was … WHITE: You did not lose members? Okay.

BRAUN: But I felt things had sort of stopped. Lost, some of the momentum there. Uh, a year later, I was still there in ‘57, and that was sort of the end of my five-year stay there. I was at my study desk one morning and I had a telephone call from Jack Lascooly of the Dave Garaway Program in New York. Saying that, “Dave Garaway was going to have a program on integration and segregation the next week, and would I come and represent, ah, the integration part of it.” 56:00And I sort of felt--and said, “Okay.” And he said, uh, “Shall we send the ticket to you?” And I said, “I’ll go down and get it, don’t worry.” WHITE: Now this was “The Today Show,” even back then, wasn’t it?

BRAUN: “Today.” When Dave Garaway had it. And, I went down, and it was more money than we had in our bank account at that time, which was always touch-and-go. So I called back Jack Lascooly at the Today program, said, “Could you send the ticket?” And then in about an hour it was there, at the door. He’d telegraphed or something. You know. And then I shared it with the congregation. And they were quite apprehensive. They kept--they asked me, “What are you going to say about us?” And they were a little leery. And, uh, this was in the paper then, I think have clippings there. 57:00And when I got to New York, they put us in a hotel, near the NBC Studio, and said, “We’ll send a limousine for you in the morning, at Four a.m. I said, “It’s just two blocks off, I’ll walk over.” They said, “No, we’ll send the limousine.” I asked the driver later on, he said, “That’s just to make sure you get there.” (laughter-all) And so when I got there, I discovered they had flown in people from around the country who were for integration. Ah, Lillian Smith from Georgia , and, uh, I think one of those clippings has the names of people, Eli Ginsberg, the professor from Columbia was there, some other people. And I was the one person representing integration.

WHITE: Now wait a minute, you said they were for integration. You mean they were?

BRAUN: On behalf--they were against segregation. This whole group. 58:00WHITE: Okay. Including you.

BRAUN: Including me, who had been flown in. Uh, the segregation people had been videotaped the day before and the videotapes brought in. Which was interesting. They weren’t in the studio with us. But after some segregationist Baptist minister talked about why this wasn’t right; they had me speak. I, I was interviewed live by Dave but they—at that time they went through the program twice: once for the East Coast and Midwest; then they had to do it over again for the far West. They don’t do that anymore. And, so, I had about two and a half minutes, probably, and uh--when I got back home, the congregation was very proud that I’d been on. And they owned 59:00that at that point. And, uh, it was very interesting. And then I started getting mail from all over the country after that. It was fascinating. I still have all that stuff in boxes down in the basement. Haven’t gone through it all.

WHITE: What was the mail like? Hmm?

BRAUN: Um, one from Mississippi or Alabama said, “You’re not a true-blue Southerner”. (DB chuckles). And one from a priest in Michigan, “God bless you for saying what you said.” And this--ah, both sides. And, um, about this time--well, uh, the Christian Sentry article had been printed, too, the one that you have. And after that I had done a lot of speaking in different places, on college campuses, as a result of that article.

WHITE: You think it was that article that got you on “The Today Show”? 60:00BRAUN: Yeah. Probably. Yes. I’m not sure whether I’d been recommended by the National Council, or, uh, but they had that article, they knew about it I’m sure. By this time Sumpter, I think, was elsewhere, somewhere. I was still in Henderson, the environment there.

WHITE: I’d like to, I’d like to ask you about Sumpter’s congregation and yours, because--you’ve described his congregation as an upper-class congregation … BRAUN: You know … WHITE: …which to me means educated. And you know, the conventional wisdom is that the educated people, uh, have less to lose and therefore they tend not to be such rabid segregationists or whatever. But this apparently was not the case in Henderson.

BRAUN: The establishment of the town was in his church. 61:00WHITE: And it was the establishment who didn’t want change?

BRAUN: The—the radio owner, Heck Blackey, and Francey Armstrong, the newspaper, obviously were on the liberal end of that spectrum. But there were a lot there--because while Sumpter was there, ah, they had the sanctuary painted some kind of pink. It wasn’t exactly pink, but sort of that--and Sumpter said a lot of people objected to having “nigger pink,” stuff like that. You know. That was what he was dealing with over there. Ah, I didn’t have any of those ( ) stuff . I came in one day, 62:00and the quilting circle, which was a group of older women who quilted every week in our Fellowship hall, --I came back, it was--I think during this week—and I’d stop by to complement them on their quilt. And they had probably been talking about all this stuff going on. And, uh, one woman was so upset she cursed me. And another one said, “You’re more concerned about your paycheck than the welfare of this church, we’ll be known as the nigger-loving church.” And all kind of stuff. And I was kind of astonished. And it was good actually, we were able to vent that. And, uh, I made sure that they didn’t feel anything ugly from me otherwise. And I didn’t reject them at all for that. 63:00But that--it was, uh--we had some very strong people in that church, who had feelings of social justice, and they were able to, I think, sway things, or to keep control, however. And I don’t think Sumpter had that in his church. As you gathered from the editorial, the editor, she was sort of wishy-washy, on both sides of the issues.

WHITE: Yeah, let’s talk about the paper for a moment.

BRAUN: Mm-hmm.

WHITE: Um, because there was an article, um, in which a writer, John Barlow Martin, from Life Magazine--no, Saturday Evening Pos … BRAUN: Wrote a very long letter.

WHITE: Wrote a very long article in which, or a letter, whatever, in which he said, “That the paper was neutral,” and Mrs. Armstrong was quite indignant.

BRAUN: Yes.

WHITE: So, your view of the paper and her own view of her own view—what--can 64:00you discuss that a bit?

BRAUN: There was one revealing article there. Where, editorial, where she said that, “We may not agree with these segregationists, but we need to respect their earnestness and sincerity.” So I sent them a letter in response to that. Saying, “Well, we may not have to agree with the people who crucified Jesus, but we need to really respect their sincerity and earnestness.” And also I used the communists, “Where, with communists, we may not agree with them, but we really need to respect their earnestness and sincerity.” So that revealed where she was coming from.

WHITE: Did she get any reaction?

BRAUN: Ah, 65:00I don’t think she did at that point. I looked in her final editorial, in where she was saying goodbye to me, and expressed appreciation for my ministry, she said, uh--I’d shared this whole scrapbook of clippings with her, and quite--ah, I didn’t include it in the set I gave you; but–I had scribbled in the margins, my objections to certain--some things--a kind of dialogue. And she said in her note that she was very interested in that. And had a feeling that I was always in all this dialogue with her. Which she liked.

WHITE: And it was a very positive farewell? The article. . . on her, no, no hesitation about you at all?

BRAUN: She liked my writing. And, it was soon thereafter that she had invited me to be a reporter at the National Council of 66:00Churches annual meeting in St. Louis. I was going there anyway, to write back daily columns.

END TAPE ONE SIDE TWO BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE BRAUN: I had been planning to attend the National Council of Churches’ Annual Meeting in St. Louis. And the editor found this out and asked me to report back with daily reports to the paper. Which I did. Over, I forget what means it came. But she said, “Don’t worry all the, adjectives and everything, just write the bare words and we’ll add stuff in.” Well, I realized after I got home they didn’t add everything in, it sounds a bit disjointed; but that was an indication of her regard. But even more so, ah, when she found out the kind of writer I did—was--and was doing, she invited me to write a weekly column. Which we called Parsonals. And I could write about anything. Human interest, 67:00what’s going on in the world, my feelings, whatever. So I wrote that about a year. That was a wonderful experience. I had a press card, everything. But, ah, apparently, that was widely read and appreciated in Henderson.

WHITE: Now which year was that?

BRAUN: Fifty ah--I think it was ‘fifty-seven.

WHITE: Because I – the reason I ask is I wondered whether you wrote anything about race relations. Ever. In that column, or was that—the purpose of that column separate.

BRAUN: The purpose was separate.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: It was just a general interest thing. And one that was widely popular, I –I had, my new born daughter write one, one time. And said, “My dad’s out of the study right now, 68:00I want to try to write something, too.” (All chuckle) So I wrote a lot of stuff in, misspelled words, and I had caps and lowercase all mixed up together.

WHITE: So it was more on the personal—you called it Parsonals, obviously, it was more on the personal, maybe human interest … BRAUN: Sure. But I tied in to world events and made commentary on that, too. So it was a hodgepodge, but a wonderful thing. I just had a lot of fun with that. And this is one thing that the editor mentioned at the end, too, that she really appreciated it.

WHITE: Um, I wanted to ask you, um, a couple of –more things about the newspaper, which we probably need to say is the Hender—Henderson Gleaner and Journal. Right?

BRAUN: Yeah. Today is … WHITE: Was … BRAUN: They dropped one of the words, I’m not sure – WHITE: It’s now the Gleaner.

BRAUN: Gleaner, yeah. Mm-hmm.

WHITE: They dropped the Journal.

BRAUN: Okay.

WHITE: Um, her description of the White Citizens’ 69:00Council. . . made it sound like a relatively bland, maybe an--a—overuse of--maybe it wasn’t quite bland, but she certainly made them sound like a mild group. But a couple of the things that you wrote, and I, I think, at the very least in the Christian Sentry—Um, gave you the impression of real vituperativeness if not violence. Um. . . why did – which I assume you would stand by today--why, why, why did the paper see it so differently, do you think?

BRAUN: I think this was an effort not to alienate the other side. Maybe a sense that – newspapers should be above the fray, or in the 70:00middle, treating all sides equally. I don’t know. It was part of her own Southern heritage, I think. Not to be rough on her compatriots. And so on. Ah, it was--during this week I heard more Bible quoting and misquoting that I’ve ever heard. And a lot of anger. And, uh, … WHITE: This week?

BRAUN: During the turmoil … WHITE: That week in Henderson … BRAUN: Yeah, that week in Henderson. And I think Donna picked up a lot of these telephone calls that came in for me, where people were very angry. And she was sort of – the main receiving one for these.

WHITE: Yeah, I want to ask you about those in a minute.

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: But I want to stick with the paper for just another minute, if that’s okay?

BRAUN: Yeah. I wasn’t quite sure what was going to happen. I knew very well that the parsonage 71:00could be bombed. I knew very well I could be killed. Ah, I had the feeling back then that maybe my life wouldn’t be too long. Um.. . . I’d first experienced these kind of feelings down in Sturgis. And I’d experienced in Henderson, too. So—and yet, I’ve often told people, yet, through all of this, I had the sort of a sense of calmness, and security, that in terms of almost being a kind of center of a tornado, where everything’s in turmoil and revolving around; but when you get to the center, as I would interpret being, trying to be on God’s side of the battle 72:00and struggle for peace and justice. If you get to that point, there’s a serenity there, that upholds a person, and supports a person in the midst of the struggle. And I had a feeling of that, there.

WHITE: The White Citizens’ Council thought God was on their side.

BRAUN: Sure. And it’s the same issue today in almost every justice issue today, you have two sides, very angry. And you have abortion people being killed, abortion doctors, for God; and, uh, you have the, the Muslims, you have Islam, saying Allah, and you have, uh, George Bush saying God’s on our side in this battle, in this new war, this crusade. So it--it gets down—the nitty-gritty’s the interpretation. And a lot of the segregationists light upon 73:00individual verses which they deal literally with, but not with context. Or maybe they pick out parts of the Old Testament, even New: the—it comes out at different time of peril, where we’ve moved on, but they read it through certain lenses; so that—ah, this becomes God’s word. And it could be a different context, or it could be a misconstrue of what God was saying, that’s in the Bible. So, there are different lenses in there. Paul has some in there where in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, and so on. Which I think become primary principles so that 74:00you look at what Paul writes through that, rather than zeroing on verses from Timothy, or some of these other places which most Bible scholars would say are post-Paul and written by other people. Different time, women be silent in church, and this kind of stuff. So, it depends how you interpret and what kind of lenses you use. And I think the lenses depend a lot on one’s own location. Ah, where one views from. Family, in Henderson to that education peer groups, . . . In our church life we’ve always had study groups, especially in 75:00Carbondale, Illinois where we go from down in Tennessee. Groups anywhere from a dozen to twenty. Studying books all year, theological bush--books. From a feminist theology, liberation theology and so on. So that you begin to have a new kind of consciousness through all of this, talking together. And it’s a wonderful experience because—all of these groups, studying a lot of these books like Bishop’s Farm and so on, you come to a new understanding. Which is critical, and yet it helps people move through the, ah, all the disbelief and just the--just being unexcited about religion anymore. I think these people have been very helpful in helping to reclaim the central aspects of our faith. 76:00WHITE: Um, . . . There was another—before we leave the paper, because I do—I do want to move on to this next thing—ah, there was an article written by Mrs. Armstrong in which she talked about the various ways in which the newspaper had been the facilitator of various meetings, do you remember this?

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: Um … BRAUN: We didn’t see it that way.

WHITE: Okay. Uh—I thought perhaps your group had been the facilitator. Is that right?

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: She thought she had brought your group together with I think the White Citizens’ Council.

BRAUN: That was revisionist thinking. The one meeting that I wasn’t at was mentioned in the paper, where Sumpter as head of the Ministerial Association met with, uh, some of the state officials, Sturgil and 77:00others. And, ah, chief lawyer for the government, and I think the White Citizens’ Council were there, where they laid out the facts of life to the White Citizens’ Council, that they were going to be under threat of jail, and so on.

WHITE: And who’s the “they” that led out, laid out the facts?

BRAUN: Ah, the government people that were there.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: The Governor’s, ah, representative, or so on. And… I don’t remember talking to Sumpter at all about this, but, ah, I read about it in the paper, too. But I think that that was a very helpful meeting, because that sort of ended the--Waller and some of these people resigned after that. ‘Cause they didn’t want to be culpable with. . . And another group took over, and it sort of disintegrated after this. This is at the end of that week.

WHITE: This was the … BRAUN: End of that week. 78:00WHITE: Perhaps the more radical elements took over, even than Waller? Or just people who continued to have that kind of nerve?

BRAUN: I think continued to have—I think they were people without leadership skills, maybe. But it was very hard to. . . carry on this fight without public support. And they were losing public support at that point. See Waller was an outsider; he had been successful in Sturgis and Clay and other places in the South, he moved around. And this is the first time in the South that, ah, the White Citizens’ Council had been defeated, which was something.

WHITE: Now … BRAUN: But I think the newspaper—this was, kind of self serving—this is perhaps the way she saw it, but, ah, this 79:00was not the fact. I should say also--I forgot to say--after the last--after the first meeting of the White Citizens’ Council in the courtroom, where the Minister’s group attended: this is at the beginning of the week, on Saturday—after it hit the fan, in Henderson; and the objections and all kinds of turmoil started in, and very strong feelings, all the other ministers dropped away. They all pulled out of this.

WHITE: Out of the Ministerial Association?

BRAUN: Not out of the Association, but out of this effort, of fighting the White Citizens’ Council. They had all been at the courthouse, in person, but after they started hearing from congregation members and others, they all dropped out. Except Sumpter 80:00and I and the black ministers. We carried on the battle. Nazarenes, the Disciples, the others. Which were very interesting, because--well, they couldn’t deal with it.

WHITE: So, so they stayed in the Council, in the Ministerial Council, BRAUN: Yup, mmm-hmm.

WHITE: I assume, sort of in name only, since that, that had been the core group.

BRAUN: Yeah, and after this whole week ended, they were back in at the meetings and so on. But they just did not want to be involved in this, activist moment.

WHITE: And that is why—I was just about to ask you—that is why, presumably, you, again, I think it was in the Christian Sentry—um, 81:00you essentially, said, “Where are the white clergy?” And that was why. Did you talk to any of them, to see . .. what they said, or what they thought, or was it just apparent?

BRAUN: I’m not exactly clear at this point. I think probably the latter that—we’d—we, we knew. I think they were all invited ( ) to the parents’ meetings that we had, but they didn’t come. So. . . they didn’t object and fight us on putting ads in and stuff, but they just didn’t want to be up on the front lines of this thing anymore.

WHITE: What did that—I mean, these are people presumably you, as a, as a clergyman you needed to work with. What, what did that do to your relationships with them? Afterwards. 82:00BRAUN: Oh, I don’t know. I was elected President after that. That was amazing. But they, they were still involved, but this was a little too much. They weren’t—ah—I think their theology and their ecclesiology and their church didn’t incorporate this type of action, really.

WHITE: You think it was that, it wasn’t just a matter of courage?

BRAUN: I think that probably too, sure. Sure.

DONNA BRAUN Well, it was scary.

BRAUN: It was scary.

DONNA BRAUN: It was very scary.

WHITE: Well let’s, let’s move into that now.

BRAUN: And say the conservative ones like Nazarene, ah, they would be against, they would be for segregation, I suspect. Some of the very conservative ones.

WHITE: Well, now there were--you said, you knew you could be killed. And you said there were threats, and you said that Donna fielded a certain number of phone calls, 83:00so. . . if you’re willing (to Donna) to describe for a minute your end of things and what came in to you by telephone or whatever. In other words, what kinds of threats were you getting.?

DONNA BRAUN: Well, it hardly ever changes, you know, if you get involved in these things. It, ah, letters—there was a letter, said, “Why don’t you take that n baby of yours down to Box Town if you love those niggers so much;” and things like that, and. . . The phone calls were just, ah, complaining, about Ted, and, ah, some—some people would give you the indication you know just better watch it; and things like that. And we were the only house on the block. There were no other houses in our block. The parsonage was the only house on the block. And it also had 84:00no screen door. When I opened the door, whoever was there I was face to face with and there was nothing in between us, so it was scary.

WHITE: Did people come to the house?

DONNA BRAUN: The parsonage? Well, we had people come to the parsonage all the time, folks who wanted help and things like that, you never knew.

WHITE: Did anyone come to threaten you?

DONNA BRAUN: No, no.

WHITE: But they might.

DONNA BRAUN: No, but you know—there were places, uh, that were bombed thirty miles away, for things that they did or said. So it was a real threat.

WHITE: So you were just as aware as Ted.

DONNA BRAUN: I was.

WHITE: That, uh, your life could be in danger.

DONNA BRAUN: Sure. I just, I was busy having a baby, I couldn’t go out and do what he was doing.

WHITE: Now tell the story of having the baby.

DONNA BRAUN: Oh, yes. Well, if I hadn’t had to go in the middle of the night I wouldn’t have been able to find him, because he was out doing all these things. And it was after midnight, so he was home. And, ah … WHITE: And this was 85:00which year?

DONNA BRAUN: This was, ah, ‘fifty-six.

WHITE: Okay.

DONNA BRAUN: September ’56. And, ah, this was after Chester had been there, and, ah, we’d been through all that. And when we went out--Ted had left the car out in front. And when we went out to the car, this--a car came speeding towards us with a spotlight on us. And when, when it stopped we could see it was, it was the Chief of Police. And we just said, “Oh, Fred, it’s you,” ‘cause we, we didn’t know. And he said, “He’d been watching our house because he couldn’t trust any of his men to do it.” He was from New Hampshire?

BRAUN: Vermont.

DONNA BRAUN: Vermont. He was not a Southern boy. And, ah, so then when he found out where we were going he wanted to go in front of us and run his siren and have some fun, but I turned him down. 86:00But, ah, . . .it was scary. You know, I was afraid for him, of course. He’s very tall. He stuck out above a crowd. His mother was scared to death that he’d get shot. I mean it had happened to other people. No reason it couldn’t have happened there.

WHITE: Now—why did the police chief say he couldn’t trust any of his men?

BRAUN: They were all Southern, what you’d call “redneck” types. They were probably for segregation.

WHITE: And didn’t—and that came out on top of their duty to uphold the law, right?

DONNA BRAUN: Sure, your gut feelings, I think that’s still the case. In a lot of this strife, public strife.

WHITE: And I read that the, ah, the National Guard, when it was sent into, ah, well, Sturgis and Clay, and Henderson, many of them were local boys.

DONNA BRAUN: Sure.

WHITE: And they were … DONNA BRAUN: They were the National Guard. 87:00BRAUN: And this was … WHITE: And they were feeling the pull, is that right?

BRAUN: A distasteful call of duty to them.

WHITE: The what?

BRAUN: It was a distasteful call of duty.

DONNA BRAUN: To have to enforce something they didn’t agree with.

BRAUN: Yeah.

DONNA BRAUN: And I think Mrs. Armstrong: you were talking about her and her attitude toward the White Citizens’ Council. The White Citizens’ Council in Henderson was brand-new. It was just formed that week. People came from other places, other White Citizens’ Councils to help them form one. Um, so they really had, didn’t had a big chance to be violent and do a lot of the things that--there was a Klan there--which we didn’t know about--that was all underneath the surface, we didn’t even know about that until years later. That the president of our congregation was a member of the Klan. That would have blown me away! (Laughs) I didn’t know that. . . just. . .

WHITE: Did—did 88:00you have any, um, dealings with the NAACP?

BRAUN: I’d been … WHITE: Yourself.

BRAUN: I’d been a member of the national NAACP for many years, probably since the 1950, ‘49, somewhere in there. I had not been active in the Henderson chapter at all.

WHITE: I just didn’t know whether with all these meetings that were taking place that you had any occasion to meet with them.

BRAUN: I was getting their national magazine, Crisis, and so on. I was a supporter of their program. And we got very close to James Clancy, he was head of the NAACP.

WHITE: Um. . . let’s see, before we get on, um – I guess I’m wondering if there are any individuals 89:00that you haven’t mentioned that stand out in any way in your memory, in connection with this turn of events.

BRAUN: Um. . . well, Sumpter Logan, Austin Bell, I think would be two people that were very important to this whole thing.

WHITE: Okay, maybe we’ve covered … BRAUN: There were two brothers who ran a filling station, the Brown brothers, B-r-o-w-n. they were quite supportive. They were members of, I forget whether it’s Baptist Church or AME church, but … WHITE: These are white?

BRAUN: These were black guys.

WHITE: Black guys.

BRAUN: Mm. But very interested, very strong men. And one of them, back in the early days, gave me a video camera—no 90:00one had videos, a regular camera, I guess--to go down to a black school in Corydon, Kentucky: which was the black school in that small town. That was in very poor condition. To take pictures inside for them. To, to—of these classrooms and everything. And I went down one day to take pictures. They let me in because of the context of coming.

WHITE: What did you, what did you see there, in that black school in Corydon?

BRAUN: Oh, I don’t remember too clearly anymore, just, ah, very derelict conditions, school, ah desks, chairs. I don’t know if they had indoor bathroom or not. I was just, ah, sort of chronicling what was there. And I’m not sure 91:00how it was used, but, ah, I’ll just mention that their own involvement in support of this whole movement.

DONNA BRAUN: I think in, in, ah, talking about Austin Bell, and after Sumpter and Ted just went out and invited the black ministers to come to the Ministerium; eventually, Austin was elected Vice President. And it was normal in that organization for the Vice President to become President, usually the next year or whatever. But Austin was Vice President for many years, (laughs) and you know—that’s it, they got that, they got that far and they just couldn’t quite make the next step. He finally became President after we left there. Of that Council.

WHITE: What about the political leadership? Is there anything you can say about them? Were they—was there anybody, were they all segregationists? 92:00BRAUN: Um. . .

WHITE: Did any of them uphold the law? Were they absent? What?

BRAUN: I don’t remember. It’s sort of all blank.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: Uh … WHITE: I keep it … BRAUN: They weren’t rabid segregationists.

WHITE: Were not?

BRAUN: No, I don’t think so.

DONNA BRAUN: At least not publicly.

BRAUN: Not publicly.

WHITE: But you don’t remember anybody who really led in that?

BRAUN: No, hm-mm.

WHITE: Okay. Um, do you … BRAUN: I think once—in situations like this, if you have. . . start building up, uh, a caucus, or, uh, the root that’s fighting for the right side of an issue, or--that tends to have an effect. That counteracts a lot of the other stuff. 93:00I remember in the psychology class they talked about conducting an experiment on our public bus where somebody would go on and make, uh, a derogatory comment about blacks. And then, as people got off they were interviewed. And it made an impression. The second experiment, after the derogatory comment, somebody else on the bus would speak up and say, “I disagree.” Or something. And then people were interviewed coming off, and that derogatory comment was counteracted by the person who spoke up. And I thought, that’s very inter--interesting. Because if you give full sway in a community to all these segregationist stuff going on, it has a 94:00cumulative impact. But once you get a counter viewpoint in, an alternative viewpoint, either through letters or something else; or action, that enervate—enner—en--strengthens people to—to, it gives them courage to speak up. It helps counteract all this other stuff. So you start having negative influences and positive influences.

WHITE: So perhaps your stance may have moderated the political leadership a bit.

BRAUN: I think.

WHITE: To be less radical than they might have been.

BRAUN: I think.

WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: And I think that helps explain also, in a congregational meeting, where we’ve taken an action, and it gives people in the congregation who have supported us courage to speak up.

WHITE: And do you remember anything similar or different with the, 95:00what, educational leadership, either school principals or teachers or school boards, does anything pop out in your memory, or--over forty-plus years?

BRAUN: I don’t know about the school board, but the principal at Weaverton was quite supportive of what we were doing. ‘Cause he came to the, these meetings that we had. Yeah, we’d contact him every morning to see how attendance was going, and so on. And he was wanting the situation was to be as peaceful as possible. And to proceed.

WHITE: I wonder how he might have paid for his efforts? (wry laugh).

DONNA BRAUN: I don’t know that story. . .

WHITE: And, it , one, one more group. Um, what about, the national bodies of your church and the Presbyterian church, Sumpter Logan’s church.

BRAUN: Uh-huh.

WHITE: What, did you get any, 96:00ah, response to them, or encouragement, or discouragement?

BRAUN: Our next level of -- judicatory in our church was, uh, south Indiana and Kentucky Synod, it was called then; and then it became a conference. And the conference minister was very supportive. And let the church know that. The denomination was very supportive.

WHITE: The what? Denom …?

BRAUN: The denomination. Evangelical Reform Church.

WHITE: Right.

BRAUN: Many publicly endorsed and commended me. And, uh, it was through the social action commission, but also the outreach of the denomination itself. 97:00And, uh, I read in the newspaper that Outlook magazine that the Presbyterians commended Sumpter. I’m not sure whether that was the official organization of the denomination itself, but at least the magazine took a stand. Because usually the magazines represent regressive editing there. And after that event I was invited to become a member of the Social Action Commission of the denomination, it was on the basis of the Henderson thing. And. . . other responses along the way. I know when I went to Penn State as chaplain for United church after Henderson, I joined a group of students who--as chaplain--who were concerned about 98:00how, desegregation—at that point all the barbershops in State College were closed to blacks, they had to go thirty miles away to get a haircut, in Altoona.

WHITE: In Pennsylvania?

DONNA BRAUN: ( ) BRAUN: In Pennsylvania. In ‘58. So, they decided to picket the, uh, barbershops. And I took part and carried a picket sign. And all the, barbershops opened up at that point except one, and we concentrated outside. And, ah, finally he sold out rather than desegregate. And he became the manager of the real estate organization of that agency where we were renting a house.

END TAPE TWO SIDE ONE BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE TWO BRAUN: . .He . . . became the real estate agent for our house. And when it came time for us to leave, to move to—I had a job at the National Council of Churches, as liaison between 99:00the Protestant Churches and the Peace Corps--it was the early days of the Peace Corps—uh, I couldn’t get the surety. We had to pay one month’s rent surety to the agency. I-we couldn’t get it back again from him, because he didn’t like me. So I left it in the hands of my fellow chaplains, and finally I got half back, when we moved to New Jersey, with half deducted for extermination. (laughter) It was funny, but . . . he was getting back at us. But also my picture, uh, holding the picket sign, uh, disturbed a lot of the conservative ENRs in that area. Pennsylvania is very conservative and considers these mountain ranges—and—the towns are isolated in between. So they wanted me out of there. About 100:00four years later I moved to the National Council. (laughter DB) But then, uh, later on, in--when I was at the National Council--they had, um, I took part in the Washington March, ’63, which was a great event in my life. But there was another effort to desegregate, uh, an amusement park, at Glen Oak, outside of Baltimore. And there were about a hundred and fifty people from the eastern part of the country: went down, to try to enjoy the park in integrated groups. Like I was with a group of eight or nine, with one black person. We were all arrested. Spent time in—overnight in jail, till we were finally released. Eugene Carson Blake, who was head of the National Council was there. ..

WHITE: God. . .

DONNA BRAUN: It was a big event, yes.

BRAUN: Yeah. But that was my first experience being in jail. But later on, uh, Eaton Sumner gave me 101:00a Doctor of Divinity, and, part of the citation was “The journey from Yale to jail.” (laughs) They had a lot of fun with that. But part of the recognition by the seminary was for Henderson, which was interesting. So at that point, there was-a-a lot of official support, all over for that. But not necessarily local, or—or--community-wide or so.

WHITE: Well, when you left Henderson, as I read it, you had quite a farewell party.

BRAUN: Yeah, we did.

WHITE: I only know about one, but could you.

BRAUN: We didn’t put in about our church, the church had a very lovely potluck, too.

WHITE: Alright, what, what, what happened with your church?

BRAUN: I’m not sure whether that made the papers or not. 102:00WHITE: Okay. Well, but I mean, how—what—what was the party like?

BRAUN: (Sighs) WHITE: I mean, you said it was quite a, quite a lovely party, I mean, was it … BRAUN: It was a potluck.

WHITE: Was everybody cheering you on, I mean, was it affirming?

DONNA BRAUN: (Chuckles) BRAUN: Yeah, mm-hmm. It’s—they sounded like a, like it was a good place for me to go--be, working with students in that, and appreciation for my being there. Do you remember, Donna? They gave us some gifts. And I--

DONNA BRAUN: Oh, I think so, yeah. In that when we got the Audubon picture?

BRAUN: Okay. They, they gave us a picture of Audubon.

DONNA BRAUN: The—the turkey, his famous turkey picture.

WHITE: But—but it was all, it, the party given by your church was a hundred percent positive, you know, they, they knew you were going to an appropriate place, but … BRAUN: Now … WHITE: …they appreciated you, 103:00or, all you had done while you were in Henderson.

BRAUN: I guess there was a newspaper clipping we should have included, but it said something about; “Farwell for their beloved pastor.” WHITE: Okay.

BRAUN: And I thought it was interesting they had that word “beloved” in there. Because that was the feeling, I think, that we left with. Uh—and the congregation had.

DONNA BRAUN: Well, well, there was still some stinging about what they’d, what they’d gone through. They had such a time after the war being known as the “little German church,” and then they had this other problem. That thing about the quilting ladies came after I was home from the hospital with Carol, brand-new baby, first baby, not having, anticipated everything I’d need, I’d send him out to get something for me, that I needed, for the baby, and he didn’t come back, and he didn’t come back, and he didn’t come back (laughs), he didn’t come back. Because he had stopped to talk to the quilting ladies. (Laughs). But, you know. . .

BRAUN: But by this time, 104:00at the end, they had owned this, this history.

DONNA BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: Interesting that—you just reminded me they’d been a little German church, so they—had they been on the receiving end? Of—of, DONNA BRAUN: Prejudice?

WHITE: I mean, they must have been … DONNA BRAUN: Oh yeah. Yeah, they had been through this before. Because they were German.

BRAUN: After I left, they decided to get an older, more mature pastor. (Donna laughs) Which is funny.

WHITE: They needed a little quiet, I guess.

BRAUN: And we came back, I guess a year later, and visited one Sunday. And in his prayer he talked against the National Council of Churches and World Council, and Ecumenical work, and. . . and we went over to the parsonage (Donna laughs) and things were still in boxes. And his children had been having trouble at school, et cetera. I said, “Oh my gosh.” And, uh, 105:00they saw us in much more favorable light Donna laughs), after that. [Clapping sound.] These young whippersnappers! (laughter Donna) DONNA BRAUN: Yeah, when they started telling the conference minister at a, at a meeting about when they were getting ready to call a new pastor: this happened while we were still there; they were listing the things that they wanted in a new pastor. Well, one thing, he had to be older. And, uh, a bunch of stuff they listed there and the conference minister said, “Well, you know, Jesus himself couldn’t be pastor of this church with these qualifications you’ve listed up here!” (all chuckle).

BRAUN: Well, we, we came back every once in a while, and … DONNA BRAUN: . . . (all talk at once) always very nice. . .

BRAUN: . . .close friends, people who’d had a rough time with us over the years, appreciated. And then when we came back with, uh, Wolfgang that time for that potluck, uh, his high school class members who were still around were invited to the potluck. And they came up to me after, 106:00and said, “We really appreciate what you did for Henderson, when you were here.” DONNA BRAUN: And they were teenagers at the time.

BRAUN: Teenagers. And said, uh, “that was a great inspiration to us.” And that was the first feedback I had from that kind of source. And it was very heartwarming.

WHITE: Well now your friend Sumpter Logan didn’t have that experience.

BRAUN: Huh-uh. No.

WHITE: And had--were you in touch with him after he left?

BRAUN: Oh yeah.

DONNA BRAUN: Oh yeah. We kept in touch with him for years … WHITE: In other words, would there be, I don’t—I shouldn’t put thoughts in anyone’s head, but—perhaps he left with a bitterness that you did not leave with? Or not so?

BRAUN: (Sighs) I never saw Sumpter as being a bitter person.

DONNA BRAUN: He might have been disappointed.

BRAUN: Yeah. Uh. . . sort---when you, when you recognize what the reality is, 107:00and what the opposing forces are and where they’re coming from; I mean—this is sort of the given of the times. And you move away, but that’s how it is. You’re sorry it couldn’t have been better, couldn’t grown, but at least, uh, what happened, happens. And you can’t take that away. And I think any kind of experience becomes an educational growing experience. And I think that church is way down, in the, another place now. Although I haven’t kept track of that at all. But Sumpter all through his life was. . . ah, a prophet. And he was saying some things in his sermons that I wouldn’t have dared to say. He was very forthright.

DONNA BRAUN: Well, he was older. (Laughs) BRAUN: He was.

DONNA BRAUN: You were still a young whippersnapper. (Laughs.) BRAUN: Yeah. But it was a great inspiration to me 108:00to have this kind of, ah, ah, role model and fellowship with him at the very beginning when I was there. Because up in Chicago when I went up there for a year after seminary, as assistant minister, in charge of the youth program, we were down around Sixty-eighth and Halstead area, which was—blacks were just beginning to move in. And I wanted to have some youth programs with black youth groups. And he said, “No, can’t do that. Only when the blacks come in--block our neighborhood then you can start having them.” I thought, “Boy, that’s impossible.” So I stayed one year and was glad to leave. Uh, when the blacks moved in the church moved immediately down, way south. So. . you know. 109:00When I went to Indianapolis as assistant, that was a pretty progressive minister. And I could have been with him more than two months, a year, two years even. Although I was ready to get out on my own. But. . you-- the consciousness is so important in a minister. And if you’re willing to take risks, that’s really liberating and exciting, inspiring to me. And the person that’s well-grounded, like Sumpter was, ah, you lose some battles, you win some. And it doesn’t deter you. You keep on.

WHITE: Uh, you did have another party, though.

DONNA BRAUN: Yes.

BRAUN: With the black—the black congregations in town had a wonderful farewell also. And they had a meal, and speeches afterwards.

DONNA BRAUN: We had to sit 110:00up on two throne-like chairs in the front. [Laughs.] It was--Quite—the guests of honor.

BRAUN: And they gave us a cash purse, plus a comforter to symbolize how much of a comfort we were to. . . Wonderful, wonderful. And I guess the whole black community, the leadership was there, and all. . .

DONNA BRAUN: Oh, yeah. . .

BRAUN: Entire congregation and so on … DONNA BRAUN: All of the churches went together for that.

WHITE: The—this—I’m, I’m kind of springing this on you, because it’s not really focused on what we’ve been talking about. But I do have to ask you: Um, a, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were, um, bombed by terrorist, this, not much more than a week ago, 111:00eight days ago. And, there’s a new climate of—whatever there’s a climate of, fear, anyway—ah, do you think the kind of thing you’ve been through in Henderson, the Henderson area, has any lessons for what we are going through or about to go through now, with our Islamic neighbors?

BRAUN: Well, it was a horrific event that happened. And it shouldn’t have happened. And I think that we have not analyzed that or studied that situation enough at this point. Other words, I think there are two types of terror, terrorism. Um, people below, 112:00underneath, whose grievances aren’t heard, often move to violence and terror--terror acts. And we’ve never really listened in this country to the Arab community around--the Muslim community and so on. Uh, the way Israel has been treating the Palestinians, by, uh, putting them into these sort of Bantustans or settlements—they had their own settlements--but into areas where they’re crowded in, without support much and, uh--they can’t travel around anymore, very freely. And so on. 113:00And there’s a lot of violence going on against the Palestinians. We don’t get that viewpoint. But there’s a lot of feeling in the whole Arab world about this, the way we have treated Iraq. Um, where, over 500,000 children have died of starvation because of our blockade. There’s tremendous sadness and hurt and anger about that, all through the Arab community. And we don’t hear much about that. At all. Where we actually bombed, um, uh, a bomb shelter over there with civilians. Um, and you can go different places, um, in, in Sudan, we bombed the pharmaceutical, the only pharmaceutical factory in the country. And we justify this as fighting 114:00terrorism or whatever. And our—well--so, there’s a lot of anger there. That fuels this, that we need to deal with. In other words, we need to deal with root causes not just symptoms in this thing. And the other side of terrorism, I think, is state-sponsored terrorism. Where we use it--our country has used it to help keep control and power. Where we’ve bombed Cambodia, with whom we were not at war. We armed death squads in Central America through the School of the Americas and things like that. Um, we-we’ve supported the Israeli vendetta against the Palestinians with armaments, and so on. We’ve supported land mines, we’ve pulled 115:00out of international treaties. So there’s a state-sponsored terrorism that we certainly don’t recognize in our country. And there’s other kind of terrorism, which is from individuals in groups in reaction. So I think we’re at a very, uh, critical point now. Where Bush has declared war, and, uh, I don’t know what this means. Afghanistan is one of the poorest countries in the world. Devastated by its long battle with Russia. Kids play in ruins, and, find land mines, destroys their bodies, and stuff. Uh, they don’t have much income and we’re talking about moving in there, either occupying it or bombing it to get to, uh, Bin Laden. It just makes no sense to me.

WHITE: So, really the anger beneath 116:00what was going on in Henderson and the anger that underlies what’s going on now, you could, you could make a case for there being some sort of common thread.

BRAUN: Yeah.

WHITE: And the way we choose to deal with it or not deal with it.

BRAUN: Yeah. And the way that we have dehumanized Arabs. Same way we dehumanized blacks. Um, our video games often use Arabs as villains. So we grew up with that. Ah. It’s sad the way Arabs are, houses are being bombed and they’re being attacked all over our country now. People have chosen to come to the States—where women who feel comfortable wearing this, these robes--I forget what they’re called, sharifs, or something: are suddenly not wearing these anymore, 117:00although it’s an important part of their faith, because they’re so afraid being attacked as they’re wearing it. It’s too bad. So, it’s – there’s a climate of fear, and, uh, hatred, and I think misunderstanding. Where we don’t see these as human beings anymore. Kind of blood of our blood, bone of our bone. But, ah, they’re sort of objective enemies or something in a [unintelligible]. So that’s, a, I think a common thread with this.

WHITE: And is there anything else that we haven’t [laughs]—haven’t touched on, that, that, ah, you would like to, to mention?

BRAUN: We touched on a lot.

WHITE: Well. We have. It’s been a couple of hours. (Braun laughs.) So I guess we’ve done a pretty good job. All right, I certainly thank you both. It’s been my great pleasure. 118:00BRAUN: Okay. Great.

END OF TAPE TWO SIDE TWO END OF INTERVIEW