Oral History Interview with Clarence Matthews

ETHEL WHITE: This is a conversation with Clarence Mathews. We are at his home at 8702 Linho Court in Louisville, Kentucky. It is May 10th, 2000. My name is Ethel White. If we could, Mr. Mathews, I would like to start with some biographical material from you starting with your birth, and just sketch in a few details.

CLARENCE MATHEWS: I was born in Birmingham, Alabama, January 10th, 1929. And I, I always tease people, say I have a kinship with Martin Luther King ‘cause he was born about one hundred-twenty miles east (laughing) five days later, in 1929 in Atlanta, Georgia. And, uh, I didn’t stay around in Birmingham too long. As you might guess--as a Depression baby--the 1:00families usually moved around quite a bit during those years; and we came to Louisville and stayed here briefly. And my mother was young and she had two other children, both older. My sister is about a year and a half older than I am. She’s in Chicago; she’s a retired social worker. And my brother, who is here: he’s a retired army officer. He just moved back here after—not retired--he’s a noncom, noncommissioned officer. And he came back about five or six years ago. And, uh, but I left and went with an older sister of my mother’s and went to Detroit. And we had a brief stopover in West Virginia, come to think of it, ‘cause he worked in--my uncle worked in a coal mine briefly: still searching for work. And we finally moved 2:00on to, to Detroit. And I guess I was about, maybe about two years old when we arrived in Detroit. And that’s where I was reared, went through school; and, and I guess, yeah, elementary school and intermediary school we called it there. It was junior high and middle school here--and high school. Went on to a junior college and to Wayne University, which is now Wayne State University. And then I came here in 1956 at the urging of my mother. I thought it was going to be a brief visit. (laughter-White) But when I came down—she always wanted me to stay ‘cause actually, when I left with my aunt we didn’t see each other that often; maybe about once every 3:00three or four years, (laughing) something like that. So anyway, she wanted me to stay. So when I came down--she knew Frank Stanley, Senior, who was publisher of the Defender; and she told him that I had a background in journalism, and would I be interested--would he be interested in talking with me about a job there? I didn’t know that but--and then he called me, and I went up there; and, and he hired me (laughing) just after one interview. And so I stayed.

WHITE: Can I, can I just interrupt you briefly enough to say--or to ask, did you have a background in journalism?

MATHEWS: Yeah, just school, that’s all. And I did some free-lance--free-lance articles you know--for different things, magazines and a newspaper; uh, Michigan Chronicle, which is a black-oriented newspaper. Just a, just a small article for that. 4:00WHITE: Were there any opportunities in the late nineteen fifties for black journalists other than in black publications?

MATHEWS: No, there wasn’t. There was a guide—you could count black journalists working for minority, I mean for majority newspapers--daily newspapers--on this hand; maybe just the three fingers. There was a guy by the name of Ted Poston, from Kentucky, that started working for The New York Post, I think around nineteen thirty-seven.

WHITE: Poston?

MATHEWS: Uh-huh. P-O-S-T-O-N, and, uh, Ted, his first name. May have been from Paducah. I’m not sure, but he’s from Kentucky. And there’s another guy by the name of Orrin Evans that started—I think he spelled his first name O-R-R-I-N, Evans the usual way, E-V-A-N-S—he started working maybe about a year after that for The Philadelphia Enquirer. And those 5:00were the only two guys for years that were working for, for daily newspapers in large cities. And then in the fifties it was still only those two guys. The big movement came after--I guess during the middle of the civil rights era in nineteen sixty-one, two, three, four, or five. Along in there is when the majority of black reporters started working for daily newspapers. But before then, the answer is no. (laughing) WHITE: Okay . . .

MATHEWS: I think the, The Courier must have hired its first black reporter maybe in nineteen sixty-six, I think. It was a fellow by the name of James Alsbrook, A-L-S-B-R-O-O-K. I think he went, he stayed about a couple of years. And he was married to Eleanor Young, Whitney 6:00Young’s sister. They didn’t stay together that long, but anyway, he moved back to Kansas. I think that’s where he was from. I think he became a journalism professor; I think it was University of Kansas. And the next one after he left was, well, a fellow by the name of Bill Drummond came to The Courier. It must have been about ‘sixty-seven, no ‘sixty-six maybe because it was a few months before, before I came to The Courier. I came to The Courier in 1967 in May, I mean to the Times. I’m sorry, The Louisville Times. And before that, the Times had never had a full-time black reporter before then. So at that time I guess it was Alsbrook, and Bill Drummond and myself. I guess we were the first three. I was the first on the Times, and those two were the first on The Courier. 7:00And then after that, uh, they had quite a few. Charlene Hunter came as an intern on the Times, but she wasn’t full-time staffer before I got there; about a year before I came.

WHITE: Well, back to, back to Frank Stanley.

MATHEWS: Uh-huh.

WHITE: You were hired then to work for The Louisville Defender in nineteen fifty-six?

MATHEWS: Uh-huh. ( ) went out to cover the election campaign. John Sherman Cooper and Thurston Morton were both running for the senate at the same time, and they both won in ‘fifty-six.

WHITE: Was there anything--well, let’s see. Were there any civil rights overtones at all to those campaigns? Were there any issues that figured in?

MATHEWS: No, not particularly. It wasn’t, it wasn’t something—there 8:00was an undercurrent there because the Montgomery bus boycott had just ended, I think; and civil rights was on everyone’s mind: but it wasn’t a big, big issue, if you know what I mean. The—my job was to ask the candidates, you know, how they stood on certain things and et cetera, et cetera.

WHITE: What do you remember about that?

MATHEWS: Well I remember they were responsive, both Morton and Cooper. And Cooper especially, because you probably can remember, was a grand gentleman and a great guy. I’ve never been a Republican; I’m a Democrat. (laughter) But, you know, he was, he was a great guy. He was sincere, you know, but he was a politician. People don’t remember that though, but I think he was a very skilled politician. (laughing) WHITE: So he couldn’t really say too much?

MATHEWS: That’s right. (laughter) 9:00WHITE: In--so, so was your coverage of the Morton and the Cooper campaigns, was that pretty time consuming? Was that mostly what you did for the first year?

MATHEWS: Yeah. I just followed them around the state, yeah. And at those times the public accommodations law had not been passed, and so we had to stay in private homes in these different little towns. And, uh, but I didn’t have any trouble, you know, covering them in different places, and et cetera.

WHITE: How did you find the private homes to stay in? What was your pipeline?

MATHEWS: Uh, Frank Stanley knew a lot of people around the state, (laughing) and he just . . .

WHITE: Now this is Frank Stanley, Senior?

MATHEWS: Right. He just gave me their names, and when I got there they had a place for me. (laughing) WHITE: So you never encountered any kind of hostility or racism or . . . in those travels because 10:00you--there was no opportunity, essentially?

MATHEWS: Yeah. That’s right.

WHITE: And as a reporter you had no problem?

MATHEWS: No, huh-huh. Now the only time—this had nothing to do with campaigning--we used to go out--and some people forget this--but most black reporters at the early part of the civil rights era used to go out and test lunch counters; even before the students did in North Carolina. Used to go, you know, you write a story. You go in, ‘cause I remember going in the old hotel I guess at Fourth, I think it was Fourth and Chestnut, and sitting down, you know. And of course, they refuse you, you go back and write a story, you know, about the refusal.

WHITE: And this was before the student sit-ins?

MATHEWS: Yeah, oh yeah. Black reporters used to do that all over. I remember in St. Louis, they were doing it. They may have done it in, 11:00in Nashville, I’m not sure, and Birmingham. I know they did it in St. Louis and I did it here. And, uh . . .

WHITE: Alone?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh. You just go in with a photographer--maybe lingering around somewhere--and take your picture, you know, while you’re sitting; while you’re sitting at the, the counter or something. But there was no—it wasn’t a bad incident. They just didn’t serve me, that’s all. (laughing) WHITE: And what would you—you would sit down and ask for . . .

MATHEWS: Yeah, ask for service.

WHITE: For service. And what would they say?

MATHEWS: They said, “We don’t serve Negroes here.” WHITE: And you would say, “Okay;” and you’d leave and you’d go write the article?

MATHEWS: Yeah. It wasn’t any confrontation, you know, ‘cause I wasn’t being paid enough for that: (laughter) to go to jail. (laughing) WHITE: Were you, now were you--did Frank Stanley or somebody else at the Defender ask you to do this, or was this something you did on your own?

MATHEWS: I guess it was a combination of things. And 12:00the guy that was—I don’t know whether Frank was involved with it or not; I’m kind of hazy—but I know the guy that was managing editor at the time, by the name of Nathaniel Tillman, uh, we talked about it and we decided to do it. Yeah. But yeah, that was quite, uh—I think they did it in The Michigan Chronicle too, in Detroit. And people don’t realize that Northern cities were segregated also. And growing up, I remember the Stouffers for example, on Washington—seems kind of ridiculous now since Detroit is majority, you know, black city. But, you know, the Stouffers and all the hotels on Washington Boulevard--which is sort of the main fashionable street, you know, in Detroit--and just one block west of ( ) Avenue, which is the main drag; and at, you know, all the big stores and whatnot and 13:00nice hotels and all that sort of thing. But, no, they would not serve black folks in those hotels or even Stouffers, at that time. Although Michigan had a Civil Rights law, had one on the books since nineteen thirty-six. Fellow by the name of Charles Dix, a state senator and father of the late Congressman, Charles Dix, Senior, Junior, and had introduced it; and it was passed in nineteen thirty-six, but they still wouldn’t do it. ( ) go into court.

WHITE: I’m going to put this on pause for just a second. This needle isn’t bouncing the way I want it to, and I’m going to move this a little closer to you.

MATHEWS: Okay. (interruption) WHITE: Did you ever test it around the state of Kentucky, other than in Louisville?

MATHEWS: No.

WHITE: Just in Louisville and Detroit?

MATHEWS: Uh-huh.

WHITE: Did you—from your travels around the state, did you get any sense—I 14:00mean other than what you just sort of knew anyway—did you get any sense from people about whether anything at all was happening in the civil rights line, or attitudes, hostilities, good stuff?

MATHEWS: Yeah, well, in some cities, like Hopkinsville, there’s always been black involvement in politics and all that sort of thing. Hopkinsville was a pretty--I thought it was a pretty progressive town. You had black people involved in, in running the city. I think they had a black councilman. I don’t remember if it was councilman or alderman they had at that time. But I remember people like Louis McHenry, Senior, who was an officer in the NAACP locally and state, was very prominent. And it had, you know, apparently a good-size, black middle-class community in Hopkinsville, as I recall, at that time. 15:00And we didn’t do too much in northern Kentucky because it was pretty far afield; and The Cincinnati Herald sort of covered--which is another black newspaper--sort of covered northern Kentucky area; you know, doing the black folks up that way. But there wasn’t that much activity as I recall. Most of the civil rights activity, you know, was emanating out of Louisville at that time.

WHITE: All right. Then let’s go back to Louisville. And you covered the two senatorial campaigns in nineteen fifty-six; and what was your next assignment, or what kinds of things did you then get into?

MATHEWS: Yeah, well, we did a lot of feature stories. And I remember one we used to do called, People You Should Know, in which we profiled prominent--prominent black folks in the community; and also 16:00some not so prominent. Like people involved in childcare, you know, or something like that; or doing something for the community, somebody that—like Charlie Anderson, for example, who was the first black legislator since Reconstruction. And things like that, you know, profiles on people like that. And then I do remember doing a series on—in fact, I was thinking about doing it for The Black Journal magazine maybe—but a series on what was going on with black folks in smaller Kentucky communities; and we called it Kentucky Neighbors in which I went around to all sorts of cities. Like I went to Lebanon as I recall and—‘cause the interest there was—Lebanon at that time, I think, was sort of an entertainment--for some reason--entertainment capital of central Kentucky. 17:00And I don’t think they had a strong Catholic presence up there as they do now in central Kentucky. And, but big bands used to come into a little club—I wish I could remember the name of it—but big bands and well-known, national entertainers used to come to Lebanon and entertain. Then we did a story on Springfield and, of course, on Hopkinsville and Richmond, Kentucky, Lexington and places like that. Sort of interesting ‘cause we had a chance to meet a lot of people (laughing) going around and talking to them in different parts of the state. You know, even went down to Paducah, which is, which is a long drive, (laughing) ‘cause we didn’t the interstate at that time. You had to take U.S. Sixty which snakes all the way down along the river down to western Kentucky. But it was interesting. 18:00And then after that we just did a lot of stories that came up, especially after the civil rights movement started. There was a lot of civil rights stories, and the demonstrations started in sixty—I think it was nineteen sixty or sixty-one, ‘cause I remember, I think it was—some of the early demonstrations were at the old Kaufmann-Strauss store, and then the drugstores and then moved on to—I guess it was Woolworth that used to be out in the middle of the block, between Fourth--I mean on Fourth Street between Chestnut and Broadway--used to be there. Was it Woolworth’s or Kresge’s? (laughing) I think it was Woolworth’s. And, of course, the Taylor Drugstore and Blue Boar; and 19:00I think there used to be the old Cupie’s there on Fifth Street too. I think demonstrations were there. I remember one of the better stories I ever heard, sort of a funny story, I was in the Blue Boar when Gene Johnson--the owner at the time--when the demonstrations led by Frank Stanley, Junior were outside; demonstrators were outside picketing; and they were asking for admission. And he says, “Well, we just can’t serve Negroes in here.” And so forth . . .

WHITE: This was Gene Johnson?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh. And then I think somebody said, may have been Frank or somebody, said, “Well you do serve Negroes. You got two or three of them sitting in there.” (laughing) And there was some very fair black folks, Mae Street Kidd was one of them, former representative. And Lottie Steel, the wife of the former Executive Director of Urban League, Charlie Steel; she was there. And the other one may have been Jane Hankins. 20:00I’m not sure. I’m not sure, but I think it was her; and she was the wife of the guy that—I’ve forgotten his first name; his last name was Hankins, and he was President of Mammoth Life Insurance Company. But anyway they were just sitting in there.

WHITE: And Johnson didn’t know?

MATHEWS: No, he didn’t know. No. See they were, you know, very fair and he didn’t know. (laughing) WHITE: Was there any evidence that he might have been struck by the ridiculousness a little bit?

MATHEWS: Mathews: I don’t think so. If he did, he didn’t let on. (laughing) It was sort of funny. Those kind of things points out the absurdities of the whole thing, you know.

WHITE: Now were you, were you there at the time this was happening?

MATHEWS: Yeah.

WHITE: And you then reported this to, in your newspaper?

MATHEWS: Yeah, in the story, yeah.

WHITE: How did you, how did you, uh—well, can we go back to the beginnings of this, 21:00nineteen sixty, ‘sixty-one. And do you remember the, the first demonstration that, or, or was there something preliminary to that that you were reporting on?

MATHEWS: I, I don’t know. Seems like it all happened a little, a little fast when they started. It was—I remember Raul Cunningham used to be active in political circles around here. I think he still is. I think he’s up in Frankfort doing something there. But I remember it was really student driven, and Frank Stanley, Junior was involved, got involved; and, and Reverend Hodge and Bishop ( ) Tucker, who was an African Methodist Episcopal Zion bishop, and a lawyer, became involved.

WHITE: Now these were not students.

MATHEWS: Oh no, they, they . . .

WHITE: So you said student driven, so . . .

MATHEWS: It was student 22:00driven and the adults sort of came on, you know, to give guidance, so to speak; and add a little punch I guess (laughing) to it. And Frank was quite young; he could identify, you know, closely with the, with the young folks. And they stayed together through all the demonstrations. In fact, most of the young people went to, uh, went to the nineteen sixty-three March on Washington with--where Martin Luther King spoke. And, let’s see, I’m trying to think. I see a lot of them around today, some of them. I know one was Ben Shobe’s daughter, as I recall, retired Circuit Court Judge, his daughter, who—she was a principal in the county school system. I don’t know what she does now. I think she’s, she may be in some sort of administrative position. I remember she was there, and some of her young friends. I’m trying to think of some of the others. 23:00Anyway, it was quite a cadre of young folks, you know, that stayed together through the demonstrations and, and all of that. And there was, you know, there was quite a few white folks around like Luky Ward, Lucretia Ward, Mike Ward’s mother, who died a couple of years ago, and, uh, and, of course, her husband.

WHITE: Jasper.

MATHEWS: Uh-hmm. Jasper. The late Charles Hammond, too. I don’t know whether you knew him or not. He was, he was quite involved. And, and, uh, Thomas Hogan, too.

WHITE: Who’s this?

MATHEWS: Thomas, Tom Hogan. He was a lawyer and . . .

WHITE: Oh, he was involved in the school deseg-, in, uh, school busing.

MATHEWS: Uh-huh, yeah. And, uh, he’s got a brother or cousin that’s a priest. I think he’s got two or three priests in, in his family, the Hogans. 24:00Oh, and also, I can’t think of his name . . . lawyer. (snaps fingers) I can see his face but I’m trying . . . oh, Taylor, Dan Taylor was involved too, another lawyer. Yeah, getting back to demonstrations, it sort of seems like everything was happening all at once. I’m not sure where it really started at, but seems like to me the demonstrations at Kaufmann’s was, was high on the list, and also at Stewart’s too; the dining room they used to have up there on, what, fifth or sixth floor? Something like that. And Blue Boar was probably—I think Blue Boar came later, and some of the movie houses came maybe a little bit later. But I think, I think Kaufmann’s and maybe Stewart’s and probably Taylor and Woolworth’s were probably along, some of the first, I think. 25:00WHITE: Well, what can you—I mean, you were a reporter out on the streets while these things were going on. What do you remember about—I mean, what did you see? What, what did it look like? Were there, you know—what did it look like?

MATHEWS: Yeah, well, you know they used to gather at Quinn Chapel. A lot of kids used to come down from Central so you had, what, about two blocks from, from Eleventh Street down to Ninth Street. And they usually started out with a rally, you know, everybody—and the enthusiasm of the kids was really incredible. They really were gung-ho and all of that. And, you know, they’d get together and they’d hear from some of the speakers, like Frank Stanley, Junior and Reverend Samson, used to be at Mt. Lebanon a long time ago. He’s in Detroit now pastoring a church, but he was really an eloquent speaker that could really just, you know, get people going, inspire people to go out and do things. 26:00And then they would march and, and it was a really a long line, you know. And they would clap and march and, and go to these sites. It was a lot of folks ‘cause they used to drop off people, you know, maybe at that restaurant at Fifth and, at Fifth and Chestnut, and then another group would go to the Blue Boar, and another group would go someplace else, another group . . . In many instances, at any one time they had so many kids they had about five or six different spots where they would be. So that is the reason that … WHITE: And how many people do you think were at each spot, roughly? [quality of tape beginning to deteriorate] MATHEWS: Uh, I don’t know. I never—from time to time the police would arrest as many as three hundred or so, you know, a day, so it must have been, I mean, about sixty or seventy people at each, each site sometimes. It was just, it really got them going, you know, sit down at these sites and, you know, just pick them up and take them away and arrest them. 27:00Many of them several times, you know.

WHITE: Do you remember what, if there was any one thing that sparked the demonstrations here in the beginning? Was it something that happened here, was it looking around the country to see what else was going on? Do you . . .

MATHEWS: One of the things that may have started it, as I recall there was a push for a public accommodations law, and the city had refused to enact one. And either at about that time, or just before that time, when they started the demonstrations—I think they started the demonstrations before; and then came the push for a public accommodations law. And it was sort of a combination of things ‘cause actually demonstrations started with students down in North Carolina, I think maybe in ’sixty or ’sixty-one. And then of course Martin Luther King in ’fifty-five at the Montgomery bus boycott, but that was sort of, you know, that had sort of died out; but they did have the freedom 28:00rides, you know, right after that in the late fifties and the early sixties. And so that was sort of coming together, something that was conscious on everybody’s mind. And then when they started out in North Carolina with the sit-ins, and that sort of swept the country; including Louisville. So it was a combination of, you know, some things that were happening here and some things that were happening elsewhere, you know, that, that inspired it. But, you know, civil rights and, was just gathering a little steam about that time. And then Martin Luther King had been here and, and, uh, fired up people, so to speak. And, uh . . .

WHITE: Now, what do you remember? Martin Luther King came, when you say “here” do you mean Louisville? Or do you mean when he came to Frankfort?

MATHEWS: Well, he came to Frankfort. I remember he spoke at a commencement in Frankfort. I forget when that was. It may have been ’fifty-seven, ’fifty-eight, somewhere along in there. 29:00I forget when he was here, but I remember the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity honored him. I think Frank Stanley, Senior had been president at one time. I don’t know if it was during that period or not when they honored him, and I think he persuaded him to come here for something or other. I’m kind of hazy on that. But I do remember he was, I think he was here several times because King who used to be pastor at Zion Church, no relation, had been a friend. And then A.D. William King, Martin Luther King’s brother, who succeeded ( ) King, was here, in and out. Then he was killed in ’sixty-eight.

WHITE: Did you ever see King yourself?

MATHEWS: Oh yeah, yeah.

WHITE: What’s your—what struck you about him?

MATHEWS: Well, I guess it was his demeanor. He always seemed calm, you know. He never, (laughing) never was excited about anything, and the eloquence of the man. You know, he was a brilliant and very smart man and, 30:00you know, and he had charisma. He wasn’t--if you looked at him, he wasn’t such a handsome man or anything of that sort, but he did have a presence, you know, about him. And he must have—I don’t know. But he had such a great command of scriptures and a way of tying scripture in with whatever was happening at that time. And he was a remarkable guy.

WHITE: Did you ever actually meet him?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, his brother introduced me to him. (laughing) WHITE: Was he different up close than when he was making a speech?

MATHEWS: No, I don’t think so. He was, just seemed like a down to earth, down to earth guy. Likeable guy, laughed easily, you know, he was a nice guy.

WHITE: And do you think he made a difference to the demonstrations here, to the way things went?

MATHEWS: Oh yeah. ‘Cause people--he was like a pied piper, you know. You mention 31:00Martin Luther King’s name and everybody came, you know, black and white. And for one thing he, as I said before, he was sort of a charismatic kind of guy. Not because of his appearance, but because of what he said, and how he could connect things and relate them to whatever problem or whatever situation they may be facing.

WHITE: So he--you think he effectively spurred people on . . .

MATHEWS: Oh yeah.

WHITE: . . . to continue his work?

MATHEWS: Not only here but everywhere he went. And he was here several times. You may remember he came for the open housing demonstrations two or three times. [garbled beyond understanding] But I guess the most worrisome time for people . . . I guess back in ’sixty-six, when it seemed like history repeated itself--seems like they had a demonstration at Churchill Downs on Derby Day. (laughing) ( ) ( ) but there was an incident, some people ran onto the track. I don’t know if it was that year or the year afterwards but 32:00. . .

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE BEGIN TAPE ONE SIDE TWO WHITE: You mentioned roughly three hundred arrests a day.

MATHEWS: Uh-huh.

WHITE: What do you remember—what were they, what were the people arrested for? How, how violent were these demonstrations getting?

MATHEWS: Oh, they weren’t violent at all. They were just arrested for things like disorderly conduct, trespassing, you know, something of that sort. There was never any violence.

WHITE: And never any real fear of it?

MATHEWS: Uh . . .

WHITE: At least any rational fear of it?

MATHEWS: I don’t think so. Most of the people involved were young; and when you’re young, you don’t have any, (laughing) any fear of anything like that.

WHITE: Did you interview any of the young people?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh.

WHITE: Did they—what did they have to say about why they were doing what they were doing or 33:00. . .

MATHEWS: Well it was the usual thing people might expect is that they felt like, you know, accommodations should be open to all. If they are open to the public, they should be open to all the public. You know, things—I don’t recall the exact words, but that’s about what it amounted to.

WHITE: But nothing really stands out that was unusual about any of these interviews?

MATHEWS: No.

WHITE: Did you ever talk to the police?

MATHEWS: No, sure didn’t. If I talked to them, I may have asked them what they were being, you know, charged with, and they told me disorderly conduct or trespassing or something like that. No, nothing. I’m trying to think. I’m trying to think whether—yeah, I think that’s all, just seeing what they were being charged with.

WHITE: Did you talk to any of the black 34:00or the white leadership?

MATHEWS: Yeah. Black leadership was, of course, you know, for it. I think the mayor at the time didn’t have any comment (laughing) as I recall, ‘cause I remember there was sort of a—Bruce ( ) was mayor? I forgot which one—it may have been Bruce ( )--and he didn’t, he didn’t have much to say, at least not, not to me on the Defender. And I’ve forgotten what he may have said to people on The Courier or the Times at the time. But, no . . . (laughing) WHITE: Speaking of The Courier-Journal and the Times, you’re still at the Defender here at the time we are talking. And did you or anyone else at the Defender have any communication with people at The Courier-Journal or the Times? Was there ever any, uh, not so much coordination as, I guess, 35:00communication among the . . .

MATHEWS: Oh, yeah. Yeah, let’s see, some of the reporters, especially Paul Jannis—I don’t know if you remember him; but he was, he was a guy that, that I talked to frequently. And Bill Woosey was another one, who died a couple of years ago.

WHITE: And what would you talk about?

MATHEWS: Civil rights and things, things going on in general, ‘cause Bill Woosey was a guy that had always been active, actually—‘cause I don’t think, I don’t think he was covering civil rights or anything of that sort, but he was a strong supporter, you know, of civil rights. Matter of fact, he used to come down to Joe’s Palm Room on Thirteenth Street and ah, Thirteenth and Magazine at that time. Years ago, it was sort of a gathering spot for everybody, you know, politicians and et cetera, 36:00et cetera.

WHITE: Was there ever any, any plan that would entail sending, coordination among black and white reporters to help each other?

MATHEWS: No.

WHITE: In other words, to send each other into areas that were less comfortable or anything like that?

MATHEWS: No.

WHITE: None of that.

MATHEWS: No, no.

WHITE: What?

MATHEWS: I said, ‘No, no.’ (laughing) WHITE: Why do you say it that way?

MATHEWS: No, because that’s, yeah, we wouldn’t do that ordinarily. That’s sort of like, almost conspiring, you know. Everybody was just off on their own. You just do what you had to do, just ( ), so to speak.

WHITE: Uh, all right, and you—I have my list here, let’s see. You left The Louisville Defender and then you came back.

MATHEWS: Yeah, I went to WLOU.

WHITE: WLOU.

MATHEWS: Left the Defender in ‘sixty, 37:00nineteen sixty, yeah.

WHITE: And ’sixty to ’sixty-three you were at WLOU?

MATHEWS: Yeah.

WHITE: What were you doing there?

MATHEWS: News director. It was just a one-man show. ( ) WHITE: And, uh, what, what part of your news directing was spent on civil rights, the area of civil rights?

MATHEWS: Well, it was sort of winding down then. I guess around—not winding down, but it was pretty much the same thing, you know, just covering the demonstrations and whatnot and reporting them. And, of course . . .

WHITE: So you were making decisions and reporting it at WLOU?

MATHEWS: Yeah, ‘cause we didn’t have anyone else. It was just a one-man news department and—‘course it was, ‘course I sort of liked that better. But it wasn’t as challenging, but I liked it better because of the immediacy. You know, you could go out and cover something, come back 38:00and get it on the, on the radio immediately. You didn’t have to wait for publication, in this case the Defender, for a week. You could even beat the dailies out with, you know, whatever information that you had. So I found out, you know, it was exciting to do that. So I did that for about three years.

WHITE: And then—go ahead.

MATHEWS: No, in fact I was at LOU when we went to the March on Washington in ’sixty-three.

WHITE: Did you go to that?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, we caught a train out of Union Station and took that long journey up to D.C.

WHITE: And the train—now the train didn’t go directly to, did it go directly to D.C.?

MATHEWS: Well it stopped some. I know it stopped in Ashland. After that I’m a little hazy, but I remember it went—the reason I remember Ashland: because one of the young kids that was with us, we had to hold up the train a little 39:00bit because she went somewhere and came back late, (laughing) you know. That’s the reason I remember Ashland.

WHITE: But you didn’t have to change trains? You just . . .

MATHEWS: No, we went on the same train.

WHITE: It was direct. Well, how, how—did you coordinate with everybody else that was going on the march, or did you simply, were you a lone operator as a reporter?

MATHEWS: No, we, we just went with the group, you know, went with the group, as a reporter. But we were just in the group, and—‘cause if you’re going to report on something like that, you have to be with them, you know; or not just talk to people who participated, you know, wanted to get their insights and that sort of thing, which is what I did.

WHITE: What were—so you would have been talking to people on the train going to the March. What were they anticipating and were their anticipations born out?

MATHEWS: (laughing) Yeah, yeah I think they were. They were excited, you know. They had a sense of history, and turned out that it was. You know, they were participating in something, you know, great and wanted to be a part of it, you know, to—‘cause there was quite a bit of—for want of a better word—“hype” about the March on Washington before that. And, you know, the kids were excited, 40:00and the adults were too, ‘cause a lot of adults came along as chaperones. You know, parents came with some of their children, et cetera. So it was, you know, it was nice. It was a time for people to get together and, you know, enjoy the family and some people did.

WHITE: So the age range was two generations? I mean . . .

MATHEWS: Yeah. Maybe three.

WHITE: Teenage. Pretty far up.

MATHEWS: Yeah, to the sixties, yeah.

WHITE: Were there any whites on the train?

MATHEWS: You know, I don’t remember. I really don’t remember. There must have been, but I honestly don’t remember. But there must have been. But, uh, I don’t recall. 41:00Trying to think. I’m almost sure there were.

WHITE: All right, you were on a public accommodation, right? And it’s nineteen sixty-three. How did that work?

MATHEWS: Uh, I . . .

WHITE: No public accommodations law.

MATHEWS: Well, yeah, they had—I don’t know how we, I don’t know how . . .

WHITE: Was it a special train?

MATHEWS: Don’t recall, but I remember we, we didn’t change trains, didn’t change any coaches, anything of that sort. That I do remember. But it wasn’t anything special that I recall ‘cause, you know--I wasn’t in on the arrangements so something could have been arranged before that, but somehow I sort of doubt it because seems like to me there would have been more of a ruckus (laughing) if it had been.

WHITE: Do you remember any other reporters that were on that train with you?

MATHEWS: No, uh-uh. I’m trying to remember whether any white reporters went up or not. Somebody from the Defender came. No, it wasn’t 42:00a reporter; they sent a photographer. That’s what it was, fellow by the name of Thomas Washington, who is deceased now.

WHITE: All right. And when you got there, what happened?

MATHEWS: It was exciting, you know, ‘cause the kids--not many kids--had been to the Capitol before. And we came into Union Station, which doesn’t look like anything, didn’t look anything like it looks now. We came into Union Station in Washington and we got off. And, you know, it wasn’t that far, you know, from the area where we were going in downtown Washington. You can walk wherever you’re going. Anyway, there was a mass of people, you know, coming in on trains and whatnot. And everybody was excited about getting together and especially the masses of people that were there.

WHITE: In the station?

MATHEWS: Yeah and outside.

WHITE: And beyond?

MATHEWS: Yeah and outside, who were getting together for the march 43:00and demonstration. And, you know, seeing people from different places I guess really excited, especially the kids, really excited them, you know. Other young people from everywhere and whatnot. So there was a lot of excitement and anticipation.

WHITE: Do you have the sense that it was well organized or chaotic or what?

MATHEWS: It was well organized, yeah. No problem. Everything went off like it was supposed to. It was a little long (laughing), but that’s the way marches and demonstrations are, you know. It was hot that day.

WHITE: Did you march from the station?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh.

WHITE: To the, the—was it the Capitol? I can’t remember? Washington Monument?

MATHEWS: Lincoln Memorial.

WHITE: Lincoln . . . of course.

MATHEWS: Lincoln Memorial. Yeah, it was quite a distance but, uh, there was young people. I was younger at that time so I didn’t think as much about it either. In fact, I’ve walked that distance before, since then, in fact did it a couple of years ago. We had a family reunion 44:00in D.C. and took some friends. We were over in, in Arlington and so I took some friends over to Georgetown. And we were at Foggy Bottom so I said, “Well, let’s go to the Mall.” So we—it was just a short distance—went down Twenty-third Street past the State Department and, you know, around to the Lincoln Memorial, started at the top of the Mall. And we started walking and talking going by the Smithsonian and all that, all the way down to the Capitol, you know, just right across from the train station, so to speak. (laughing) And I said, “I don’t believe I did that.” It’s a pretty long walk. But anyway it was nice; it was exciting.

WHITE: And do you remember anything—I mean, we’ve all seen news clips of King’s speech and everything; but do you have anything to add about, about that, about its effect or . . .

MATHEWS: Well, 45:00it was--well, I remember his anti-nuclear speech ( ) Martin Luther King, you could see these swells, you know; and people following him. But in this case, when he started with his ‘I have a dream’ thing, it was sort of like building like a crescendo and just building and building and building. And, as I say, he really has a knack tying in scripture with a situation of the day, or a speech of the day. And he was just, it was just excitement. And each time he said, I have a dream, you know, and all this, just, you know, backslaps and ( ). It was exciting; it was very exciting.

WHITE: How do you, or how did you, I should say--how were you able to maintain a reporter’s objectivity while, while being in a, at an event like this?

MATHEWS: Well, I don’t know. I guess, you know, when you’ve been in the news business—I hadn’t been in 46:00it that long, maybe seven years at that time—but still there’s a certain amount of objectivity that comes with the job, I guess. You may think differently inside but at least your demeanor, you know, doesn’t change that much. And I guess your outside demeanor sometimes takes over your inside, (laughing) the way you view things, although you know what’s happening; and how key it is, and how exciting it might be. And I’m not going to tell you it wasn’t exciting. And it was exciting to me at that time, but at the same time I knew I was there to chronicle the event, so to speak, and to write about it. And to write about it in such a way to reflect that excitement. And I guess you sort of feel it through that, as you write; you know, that excitement sort of, you know, comes through in what you write. Yeah, it’s exciting but you have to keep your wits about you, and (laughing) and go ahead and do the job. And, it’s not as hard as you might think. 47:00In fact, it’s fairly easy, you know, to do that, ‘cause if you don’t, you know, you sort of lose sight of what you’re doing.

WHITE: Well you were at WLOU at this time, you said? During the march. Now, did you, uh, did you do straight reporting at WLOU or did you ever do editorial comments?

MATHEWS: No, straight reporter. I don’t think they did editorial comments at that time. I’m trying to think whether they did or not. I don’t think so. I know I didn’t do them, so . . .

WHITE: Well, back to the march for just a minute. Did you--after the march and the speech, or the speeches, did you turn around and get back on the train and go home?

MATHEWS: Yeah.

WHITE: You didn’t stay?

MATHEWS: No. Came back with the same group. Everybody went back to the station and we got back on the train.

WHITE: And you would have talked to people on the train going back?

MATHEWS: Yeah.

WHITE: And do you remember any particular, 48:00unusual insights on the return trip?

MATHEWS: No, I guess everybody was still enthused and really had a high from the speeches and whatnot, sort of laughing and joking. And a lot of people were just tired, (laughing) you know, after that; and a lot of us went to sleep, you know, maybe after, maybe by the time we got to Maryland. I think everybody was probably just tuckered out. As I said before, it was a hot day, and that was a pretty long walk. And so it was kind of tiring (laughing) really.

WHITE: And then soon after that you then went back to the Defender?

MATHEWS: Uh-huh.

WHITE: And, uh, how about editorial comment there? You were a reporter.

MATHEWS: Right.

WHITE: But do you or were you in on any of the decision making at The Louisville Defender?

MATHEWS: No.

WHITE: In other words, decisions about what kind of a stand to take, or, or 49:00approach to take, or any of that stuff?

MATHEWS: No, you know, actually, in black newspapers, I guess it was maybe understood by everybody what kind of stand you were going to take; and you never had any, any conferences about that sort of thing.

WHITE: But there’s degrees, and there’s ways to say things, and that kind of thing.

MATHEWS: Yeah. But, you know, Frank Stanley, Senior, who did the editorial writing, and people who worked there, including me, I don’t think there--you know, there was always a meeting of the minds. He—nothing could be—of course, the news guys were separate, as they are in most newspapers, from the editorial side, but, uh, his stand, so far as civil rights was concerned, was very strong from, from the beginning. And that was fine with me and everybody else that worked there. So there was not much said. (laughing) It was understood.

WHITE: Right and 50:00I, I mean, I assume that too. But I think what I’m trying to get at is, you know, there are lots of ways to say the same thing. And I guess the question would be, would be, you know, how—I don’t want to use the word “shrill” because—you know, how, whether to say something sort of calmly or whether to say something with force. I guess that’s what I’m talking at, I mean talking about.

MATHEWS: Yeah. Well Frank Stanley would come out and talk to me and maybe Nathaniel Tillman, who was still there, was managing editor. But, you know, mostly he just ask us what do you think about this or that? But he was probably, you know, as emphatic as anyone would want to be, because you have to remember Frank Stanley had done a lot of work, you know, in promoting civil rights. Even—I think he was appointed, for example, as a special counsel 51:00for the war department, during the war, to go overseas and check about, you know, accommodations for black soldiers and whether they’re being involved in the war effort, or whether they were just back packing crates and whatnot, supplies for troops and whatnot. And he did that. And then he was—I think he was one of the first members of the Kentucky Commission on Civil Rights. I think he was chairman of that—I think it was vice chairman; I don’t know whether he was chairman or not--and he was instrumental in drafting the state law that created the commission. I think that was in ’sixty-three. Was that ’sixty-three? Well it doesn’t matter now. Anyway, he’s always been in the forefront and, and very, you know, gung-ho on civil rights. Which is—I don’t know whether that answers your question or not, but it really sort of gets to it in a way, that he was always out front on things like that, which was fine with us. 52:00WHITE: Right. And, and I’m sure you think that I’m asking sort of an obvious question, but I guess what I’m getting at is this: there was a certain, if I’m correct--at least among some of the white press--there was a certain tenor that this was right but, but go a little bit slow or you’re going to end up in a worse situation than, than you were . And, I mean, you can, you can make all kind of accusations about that particular stand. Either that’s really what they meant or maybe you could say, “Well, that’s racism in disguise.” So I guess I’m thinking more in terms of strategizing as to, you know, what is the most effective way to go, but I think what you’re telling me is, “Go for it.” MATHEWS: Oh yeah. That’s the way it was. There was no other—full-speed ahead. There was never any doubt, any discussions, anything of that sort. You know, it never—nobody 53:00even thought, you know--if you flash back on the situation, as I think back, I think it was sort of a--most of the time in the black community people seem to think that it’s, you know, that they think alike, but it’s not true. But in this case, I think the black community was united, you know, in one effort.

WHITE: All right. Then in 1967, you went to The Courier-Journal.

MATHEWS: Right.

WHITE: Now, how did that come about?

MATHEWS: Well I went over and had applied in nineteen, I think it was; and someone from the Urban League, by the name of Earl Johnson, suggested that I apply. I hadn’t even thought about it, but he suggested I apply so I did in ’sixty-six. And then I think it was about that time when 54:00Martin Luther King was here for the open housing demonstration. They were talking about this possible demonstration at Churchill Downs in ’sixty-six or early ’sixty-seven. Anyway, it was about that time they called me in for an interview. And I guess they needed someone right away, ‘cause I, I went in, and they took me immediately up to Bob Clark--who was the managing editor at that time of the Times--and asked me if, you know, would I accept the job. And I said, “Well, maybe I’ll talk to the city editor.” I think he said, “Well, doesn’t make any difference to the city editor.” (laughter) I was a little shocked, you know, when he said that, you know. But anyway, Norman Isaacs was the executive editor at that time, who died about four or five years ago, may not have been that long. But anyway, apparently the decision had been made they needed 55:00some more black reporters because they only had one at that time at The Courier and nobody on the Times. And I guess they saw the demonstrations coming to a head ‘cause, as you remember, in ’sixty-six and ’sixty-five I think, the riots had broken out in Detroit and California, Los Angeles and someplace else, in the late sixties. So they figured that something like that might happen and it did in ’sixty-eight. I don’t know if you call it a mini-riot; it wasn’t much of a riot.

WHITE: You mean here? [tape starting to deteriorate] MATHEWS: Yeah, here, in ’sixty-eight, down on Twenty-eighth Street, which really shouldn’t have happened. Things just got, you know--somebody just got excited and, and too much of a show of force--which I was kind of nervous about this past Derby Day when they talked about all the police being down there and, given the climate: So all you need is a little spark [snaps fingers] and you’ve got something big down there. But I think the Justice department, when they came up with that idea, that somebody must have contacted them here. 56:00The U.S. Justice Department ‘cause ( ) in other places, that is community people.

WHITE: You’re talking about this year?

MATHEWS: Yeah, this year, yeah. Sort of defused things a little bit. But anyway, that’s, uh--I guess they were afraid that something like that might happen so they decided they needed some more black reporters. (laughing) Anyway, I came up one day and was hired the same day.

WHITE: Uh, all right, let’s go back to that part. Uh, why did you decide to leave the Defender and go to The Courier-Journal? Why did you apply in ’sixty-six?

MATHEWS: Well, as I said before, a fellow at the Urban League by the name of Earl Johnson had asked me to. He was trying to place some black reporters over there, and so I said, “Okay.” I didn’t think anything about it. So I went over and applied.

WHITE: And it was important to him to have black reporters at The Courier-Journal?

MATHEWS: Yeah. As you recall, the Urban League, that’s what they do. Not only—they try to place black people in nontraditional jobs, 57:00at that time, that black people did not have: such as even secretaries at different places and, you know, professional and nonprofessional, and nontraditional jobs where there had not been any. You may recall, I think as late as the late fifties, even in the classifieds they used to have, you know, they had classified ads that specified ‘white only’ and that sort of thing. That hasn’t been that long ago, (laughing) to see that in the paper, something like that. So anyway, the Urban League was trying do something ( ), so they were trying to get people to apply for different jobs all over. And Earl was trying--was part of that--he was the—I can’t think what to call it--the, I guess he was the assistant secretary for something; I forget what it was. Anyway, that was his job to put people in these positions. That’s when he asked me. I said, “Okay.” But it was six or nine months later, almost a year later, I guess, before they called me. 58:00WHITE: And what did you find when you got there?

MATHEWS: Oh . . .

WHITE: How was it moving into the atmosphere of a, essentially a white publication?

MATHEWS: Oh, it was fine. A lot of people that I knew previously, and, like Bill Woosey and ( ); and who else? ( ) at that time. So it was very friendly, and ( ) was city editor, great guy and wasn’t any problem at all.

WHITE: And, and how was it—did you have to learn anything that you didn’t already know from working at the Defender? Were there any different rules or methods or . . .?

MATHEWS: No, just I had to get used to fast deadlines at the Times. We started at seven o’clock as I recall; the first 59:00deadline was ( ). I think it was about five minutes to eight. In about an hour—if you had to do something, you had to do it in about an hour. And then I think the Indiana edition deadline—( )—that was about 8:30; and then the final deadline was nine o’clock. So you had three deadlines (snaps fingers) right in a row. So if you had to do something, you had to do it pretty darn fast. (laughing) ‘Cause, you know, working with a weekly, you know--you sort of--you didn’t have to--sort of leisurely put together. But of course you had a lot of help, copy editors and whatnot. At the Defender we didn’t have that luxury, you know: didn’t have copy editors and that sort of thing. And then you had people like Joe Landau, I don’t know if you remember him. Used to be—that’s the guy ( ) photograph of an old-fashioned newsroom sits in sort of a semicircle, and the copy editor sitting and one guy in the middle ( ) two copy editors. 60:00Joe Landau was the chief copy editor. He was a nice guy. He had—two people came on the same time I did, and he had us all out to his house to dinner and that sort of thing. And lot of people, like( )--with The Washington Post now--and a lot of folks came out to Joe’s. He liked to gather people when they came in and take them out to his house. ( ) do the same thing. He—I remember after I came--had a big soiree out in Glenview, and he had I don’t know how many reporters out and whatnot; had violin players mulling around and playing. (laughing) ( ) It was fun; it was great. )The tape has become increasingly garbled.) WHITE: ( ) you indicated that there was nothing, except for the fast deadlines, there was nothing a lot different about the job.

MATHEWS: No, I reported like I did always. In fact, 61:00( ) education and social issues ( ).

WHITE: My impression is that’s not why they hired you.

MATHEWS: No. I guess they didn’t want to make it that blatant. (laughter) A funny thing happened, I covered social issues and education and then about, I guess about six months after I was there ( ) Puerto Rican ( ), but anyway he came to town and he started covering civil rights (laughing). 62:00( ) WHITE: ( ) [rest of this side of the tape was too garbled to transcribe] END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE WHITE: Okay, so, so at some point after the riots started, the Times sent all of their black reporters down. 63:00MATHEWS: Yeah.

WHITE: Now before that happened--you said you lived seven or eight blocks from the area. Did you hunker down in your house or did you go out to see what was going on?

MATHEWS: No, I knew better than that. I stayed home. (laughing) No, yeah, as I said, it was late anyway when I heard about it. I guess it was on the late news, about eleven o’clock, and I did hear something, 64:00uh, some noise or something like that, but, you know, I didn’t think too much about it. I turned on the news about eleven o’clock, and they said some disturbances had broken out. I think the disturbance must have started around about after the speech by a fellow named Cortez. I’ve forgotten his first name; I think he was from out of town. And then, and then things just got out of hand.

WHITE: And, and did you stay up listening to the radio?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh.

WHITE: Was there—let’s see, 1968—was there anything on television?

MATHEWS: I don’t recall. I don’t think so. I think it was just some voice over; I don’t think there was any tape. But the news was on but I don’t think there was any tape. I’m almost sure there wasn’t any tape.

WHITE: But . . .

MATHEWS: Any film.

WHITE: But as you listened to the radio, did you have a sense of things developing? I mean, did you, did you know 65:00it was getting bad? The first night?

MATHEWS: I had a hunch that it might because of what had happened in other places, you know other cities, and the fact that people in law enforcement, I think, were probably a little jittery, you know. And usually when you get a combination of jittery law enforcement people and folks that feel like they’ve been wronged by law enforcement, it’s a bad combination, you know. Things happen that are not good. But I didn’t think it was going to be too much to it. In reality I thought maybe it might be a little light disturbance or something like that; and it wasn’t really a big, big thing like it was in Detroit and, and Watts and places like that, where you had entire blocks and blocks and blocks. This thing really just happened 66:00between, I guess, maybe just a block and a half area, just between Dumesnil and Virginia, and maybe parts of Dumesnil, some places out through there. And of course at Twenty-eighth and—it started at Twenty-eighth and Greenwood but nothing, nothing happened right there because actually, there was—mostly residential right at that area, just had a couple of restaurants on that corner and a store. And then they moved about three blocks south of there, yeah, about three blocks south of there down to Virginia where the little shopping area is, and still is right now. But it wasn’t really that big. [laughing] WHITE: And you said it, it shouldn’t have happened. Why did it happen?

MATHEWS: I don’t know. I think it was just, you know, maybe just had some, (coughs) 67:00excuse me, some people like this guy Cortez who came in from out of town; and there was a push for, you know, for more civil rights, maybe jobs and fairness and that sort of thing. And I think that maybe people got riled up and something happened. And people thought that things were going to get out of hand, and they did after law enforcement came in. I think what they really thought was—I think what exacerbated the situation was when, you know, when something happens, and then you get a police presence or something like that, people start resenting the police presence. And the police feel like they have to do something, you know, to keep things under control; and things get out of hand. But I wasn’t there at the time so I don’t really know, but I just suspect that that’s probably what happened.

WHITE: And it seems to me that 1968 was before there had been much training 68:00in riot control, or in keeping, keeping the passions down.

MATHEWS: Yeah, and that still is today and I say--just like they had the ambassadors--black community folks out trying to keep things down. Most of the situations that escalate between police and black people, I think, is just a matter—and it happens to white folks too, especially, it, it—sometimes the perception is that, especially in terms of police, that people are powerless. I hate to phrase it that way but I think it is. They react differently with white folks in Portland than they do with white folks in Prospect. Same thing, they react differently with black folks in Prospect than they do with black folks in the Russell area. And I think it’s the sense of, that maybe if we do something to somebody here, they’ll have some recourse, and we might be in trouble. But I think it’s a lack 69:00of respect sometimes for people who they think, you know, don’t have any power, connections or something of that sort and, you know, and you can--if I’m downtown and dressed differently, and they stop me, and I ask a simple question, “Why are you stopping me?” I’m subject to insult. That’s the truth, and that’s always been the case. And when you insult somebody, your response in many instances is to insult back. Before you know it, things have escalated and, you know, ( ). And sometimes it’s a lack of respect. And I think in police community, the community police, for example, you know, when police are really connected to the communities and—whether they be black or white--you know, you just get that lack of respect. People ordinarily are not crazy. They not going to ( ) somebody with a gun in their hand, you know, something like that, unless they’re crazy. But sometimes 70:00when you, when you treat people badly, then they start, you know, reacting badly and you have a situation. And, you know, it’s not paranoia. You can scratch any black person’s back that’s over twenty-five, thirty, or younger and they can probably, you know, recall some incident, some bad incident where police have behaved like that.

WHITE: Did you ever see—well, let me get back to 1968 for just a minute. You listened to it on the radio and then was it the next day—when did the paper dispatch the black journalists?

MATHEWS: Next day.

WHITE: Next day. And did you--where precisely did you go?

MATHEWS: Uh, around Twenty-eighth Street and . . .

WHITE: That same corner?

MATHEWS: Yeah, around Twenty-eighth Street and Greenwood and then up to Dumesnil. Around up 71:00that way. Just to observe mostly; and talked with some people that were there, and just asked them what went on. And most of the time (laughing) not too many people knew what was going on: ‘cause it was just really a small amount of people right there at the rally at Twenty-eighth Street and it sort of dispersed. And as I said earlier, it was mostly a residential area; and I guess people really just stayed in. I think it was mostly maybe a younger crowd that was there, but I don’t think too many people in the community that were there.

WHITE: Was it beginning to calm down by the next day?

MATHEWS: No, I think it went on for about, uh, about two or three days, I think. I’m a little fuzzy on that, but I think it was two or three days.

WHITE: Did you ever see, in this particular demonstration, did you ever see any of that, um, you know, impolite; I mean, any of that kind of behavior between police and, and the black citizens?

MATHEWS: No. No, 72:00I didn’t.

WHITE: Not at that particular time?

MATHEWS: No. As I said before, I wasn’t the primary reporter on that; David Diaz was. He was down, mostly covering, when it was sort of dicey. I think he was there most of the time then. And I think it was just probably the usual thing, just crowd control, you know, moving people on and so forth. And I think, I think most the things had died down, just sporadic incidents after that. No, I didn’t witness anything like that.

WHITE: Do you, uh, do you remember what happened after that? I mean after this particular disturbance calmed down?

MATHEWS: Well, I think there were meetings between, you know, black community leaders and, and—I think Frank Stanley, Junior was probably involved, and I think Reverend Sampson; maybe Bishop Tucker; 73:00and I think Frank Stanley, Senior; and Reverend W. J. Hodge, I think, was maybe NAACP president at that time--I’m not sure about that--and community leaders, just trying to find some solutions et cetera. And, but other than that, then things just sort of quieted down, you know, on their own. And then there were other things going on. I think the Louisville-Jefferson County Community Action Agency, for example, had been set up. Part of the Poor People’s Campaign as part of the War on Poverty was, you know, getting some programs off the ground: sort of alleviate, you know, the poverty conditions in some parts of western Louisville and that sort of thing. So I guess there were a lot of things going on to sort 74:00of calm the situation at that time.

WHITE: Now, there had been a public accommodations law passed in Kentucky in 1966. It was after the voting rights act of 1964, the national one; but the public accommodations act had been passed. So these 1968 disturbances were about general conditions?

MATHEWS: Yeah, general conditions, I think. Yeah, mostly, and I guess just a general feeling of being left out of “the good life,” so to speak, you know. And, as you know, even when things are better, you know, employment--for example, employment statistics, that the employment rate is about eight or nine or ten percent, and it’s usually around about twenty percent in the black community. Things like that. There’s still a lot of unemployment 75:00and a little unrest over that. And then again, there was--but I don’t know if it entered into it--but there still was the matter of housing and et cetera. And then there’d been some—but I don’t think people that were supporting open housing were out there rioting. It was mostly, you know, a younger group. And just general dissatisfaction, I think. And I think at that time, too, I think there were issues with police they were dissatisfied about, you know, at that time. So it’s been going on for a long time.

WHITE: And, as you say, of course the housing was a lot of that. Do you think—do you remember whether the inequalities of people being sent to Vietnam entered into any of these?

MATHEWS: I don’t, I don’t think, I don’t think so.

WHITE: Okay.

MATHEWS: I’m trying to search my mind. I’m trying to recall whether or not—let 76:00me think—Martin Luther King was assassinated in April of ’sixty-eight. When you said something may have sparked those disturbances, I’m trying to figure out whether or not they came after—they may have been part of it. Maybe Martin Luther King’s assassination may have been part of it. That was in April of ’sixty-eight and the disturbances broke out in ’sixty-eight. It was warm. I think it must have been after April or something. I think that may have sparked some of that.

WHITE: And of course Robert Kennedy was shot that summer.

MATHEWS: Yeah, that summer. Yeah, in ’sixty-eight.

WHITE: And, as you say, there were—I mean, ’sixty-eight was a bad year and cities were burning and . . .

MATHEWS: Yeah, it may have had something to do with it. I remember—‘cause later on in ’sixty-eight we went on the Poor People’s Campaign, and that’s when A.D. Williams King, Martin Luther King’s brother, was pastor at Zion Baptist Church down on Twenty-second and Muhammad Ali.

WHITE: Now that was something separate?

MATHEWS: Poor People’s Campaign?

WHITE: Uh-huh.

MATHEWS: Oh yeah, that was, that was quite 77:00an event. Martin Luther King had started organizing this before he died, before he was assassinated; and what it was was to take this mass of people to Washington for a demonstration to, to, you know, for jobs and opportunities and economic—it was mostly an economic demonstration. Anyway, you had this massive flow of people in buses, and I joined with Tom Hardin. I think he went to Detroit ( ). Anyway, I went for the Times and Tom Hardin was the photographer. Curiously enough, the Courier didn’t send anybody, but the Times did. So we joined the campaign when it came here. It was probably the mid-west part of the campaign, which originated, I think, in Milwaukee and came to Chicago and picked up people in Chicago, through Indianapolis, I mean Gary, Indianapolis and picked up people there. By the time they got here, I think there must have been 78:00ten Greyhound buses of folks. [tape starting to garble slightly] I think it left here, must have been about five more, about fifteen. So you can imagine the buses going up, going up to Cincinnati. And it . . .

WHITE: Now I’m a little confused. You said it was the mid-west part . . .

MATHEWS: Uh-hmm.

WHITE: . . . and only buses. Now, were they doing their demonstrating in the mid-west or were they picking people up and taking them to Washington?

MATHEWS: No, picking people up and taking them to Washington. And this is going on in all parts—you know, there was people coming up from the South, people coming from California, ‘cause they had Native Americans and also, uh, Chicanos from the southwest and California and, uh, it was—and white folks, Appalachia and other places. And it was really quite, quite a sight. I remember we came, came through 79:00here--we went to Cincinnati and stayed overnight in Cincinnati, and people took some of the people in their homes, you know, overnight. And first time I’d seen Jesse Jackson, cause he spoke at the cathedral in ’sixty-eight.

WHITE: In Cincinnati?

MATHEWS: Uh-huh. At the, at ( ) cathedral. And they had people on the caravan-- again this is still the mid-west caravan--and he spoke to people there and ( ) as I recall. (laughing) WHITE: Was he, was he much the same as a speaker as he is now?

MATHEWS: Yeah. Of course, he was much younger and people were saying, “Who is he?” ( ) He’s quite a speaker, and things like that. But anyway--and then we left there and went to, uh, Dayton and picked up some more folks--went to Detroit and picked up a big group there. And I think we stayed overnight in Detroit. Yeah, stayed overnight in Detroit, ‘cause I remember we came by in front 80:00of ( ) Hall, I think it was, and I saw some people from here that came down for that demonstration, ( ) little rally, you know, something like that. And so we stayed there. And then we left and went, went back to Toledo on to, on to, I think it was ( ). Was it ( )? Anyway, we went from there to Pittsburgh, and they were about--everybody was tired, really tired by the time we got to Pittsburgh. And we checked into--Tom and I checked into a hotel. Felt a little guilty about that. (laughing) But Tom and I checked into a hotel; and the people stayed in the arena in downtown Pittsburgh, right across from the, from the Hyatt--I think it’s a Howard Johnson’s now—but across from the Hyatt. And funny thing, ‘cause the--I don’t know whether Pittsburgh, which one it was, but thought 81:00we’d just come into town and move on like we usually do. But people became ill, I think some intestinal flu or something like that. But anyway, we stayed there two days. But they ran a headline said: “Poor People’s Campaign Came to Town and Left.” And, of course, that wasn’t true (laughing). I guess something like that headline, “Dewey Defeats Truman.” It was one of those. That was really funny. But anyway, we finally got to D.C. about, I guess in about six or seven days, something like that. And then they had these tents out on the Mall and whatnot.

WHITE: [tape becoming garbled] Let me just interrupt you a minute and ask you why—did they, did they take this circuitous route through the mid-west in order to drum up enthusiasm and drama and all this kind of thing?

MATHEWS: Well, partly.

WHITE: ( ) different bus from each city and ( ) MATHEWS: (laughing) Yeah, they could have 82:00but there was just a lot of drama in . . .

WHITE: So the point was the caravan?

MATHEWS: Yeah, uh-huh.

WHITE: Okay.

MATHEWS: Yeah. Number two, they had these caravans coming from everywhere, up from the South and from the West and the East, you know, and all over converging on Washington. And it was quite a sight. Tents out on the Mall and whatnot and that sort of thing. And ( ) demonstrations and talked about—Martin Luther I think had a conference with--I don’t remember whether they went to the White House or not at that time. ‘Sixty-eight I guess would have been, uh--I can’t remember who was president. Was it Carter?

WHITE: Johnson was finishing up. He wasn’t running again.

MATHEWS: ( ). But I don’t think they went to the White House at that time. Seems like I remember 83:00( ).

WHITE: Who took the helm? I’m having trouble remembering it.

MATHEWS: ( ) WHITE: Yeah, ( ) from King ( ) Abernathy.

MATHEWS: Ralph Abernathy, yeah, and Jesse was there. Ralph Abernathy and Jesse Jackson, uh, ( ) Wilkins, president of the NAACP at that time, wasn’t involved. I don’t think Whitney Young , Junior was either. If he was, I don’t recall him being around. ( ) Oh, Andrew Young; I forgot about Andrew Young. He ( ). Andrew Young, Ralph Abernathy and Jesse Jackson. And A.D. Williams King played a fairly nice role, King’s brother, 84:00( ).

WHITE: If you really compare these two, the March on Washington--the Poor People’s Campaign and the March on Washington.

MATHEWS: I think people remember the March on Washington. I guess it’s because of Martin Luther King’s speech. ( ) WHITE: Would you characterize, at least the second campaign, would you characterize it more of anger, frustration, hope?

MATHEWS: Well, I think it was one of hope and frustration. I don’t think people were really that angry. I think they wanted to do something about ( 85:00) WHITE: Well ( ) so we need to wind this down. I’ll just ask you if there’s anything else you’ve ever been engaged in as a reporter in the civil rights line ( ) ’sixty-eight or anything we might have missed?

MATHEWS: 86:00No, ( ) WHITE: ( ) MATHEWS: ( ) WHITE: ( ) MATHEWS: 87:00( ) WHITE: ( ) MATHEWS: ( ) END OF TAPE TWO 88:00SIDE ONE END OF INTERVIEW