Oral History Interview with Srdan Hrkalovic

Shelly Drummond

Okay, this is Shelly Drummond and it is July 8th 1999, and I am with--Srdan Hrkalovic. Is that right? Say it anyway.

Srdan Hkralovic

More or less, it's Srdan Hrkalovic.

Shelly Drummond

Okay, and you're from, Slov--say that?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well at least you tried. [laughter]

Shelly Drummond

Okay. Okay Slavonski Brod,

Srdan Hkralovic

Yeah.

Shelly Drummond

Croatia?

Srdan Hkralovic

That's right. That's where I was born.

Shelly Drummond

Tell me a little bit about your hometown.

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, it's about--its population is about 70-80,000. I mean, it's sort of hard to get a picture of it on the basis of that figure, I mean, Bowling Green is what, 15,000 maybe? And in my opinion, there's nothing in it. [laughing] The amount of people that live here, the structure and the way cities, cities develop, is sort of different over there. Because obviously, places are older because [clears throat] Europe has been populated for a longer period of time. It's a fairly flat city, it's on the banks of a river. The Sava, it flows into the Danube in Belgrade. So I don't really know what to say about it, it's been probably about six years since I properly thought about it, I pretty much took it as granted. And I'm never going to return. So it hasn't been a major factor in my thoughts, but I'll watch it like slightly Victorian, classic, quite European. The usual picture that you would meet in a o--old Austrian city or town,a very big square. It's a custom juist to have walks across the square, almost flat, almost nothing on it. Except bench and a nice light (??), people selling ice cream. People with (??) walking along the bank of the river. [clears throat] I don't know why, it was completely brown, industrialized, etc. I loved it, because I was born there. And all my family roots, were sort of in the area. That part of Croatia where I was born, where my mother's family's from, where my grandmother lived. It's like, very group (??). It's considered to be the pantry of Croatia, almost, if you wish. So the people are sometimes very simple, but always very good, very hospitable. But, then again, I wouldn't want to say anything else about the place that I'm from. I don't know, actually. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to say. I just like it. I don't know how to describe things too much. I--I don't like labels. I would like to convey the feeling, but that's quite hard.

Shelly Drummond

How about you're--you're living in an apartment or a house?

Srdan Hkralovic

So initially, it was a house, actually, of--what happened was, my mom had sort of a teacher's degree from a university, I think in Slavonski Brod. What happened was, she--she got a job across the river. Now, bear in mind that this was during the--Yugoslavia. There was no distinction between Bosnia and Croatia. So, and as long as the Brod was on the very border, which was the river Sava, it was pretty much irrelevant where you were. You were a citizen of Yugoslavia, and you simply wouldn't care. She got a job across the river, [clears throat] so to speak, and met my dad and basically got employed at a local school in a small village of maybe, what, 1000-2000 people called Vinska [now in Boznia & Herzegovina]. And I think for, for the first few years of my life, we lived there with my dad's parents, and it was a very nice little farm with--I mean my grandfather was just a completely rural person. He grew corn and wheat, and he had barnyards and vineyards, actually. I don't say that word that much. I said--it's very nice. Fruits, plums, everything you can imagine. And then we moved sort of down the road a little bit to a school, actually, I lived in a school, in an actual school for about oh, eight years of my life, seven years of my life, something like that. What it was--it was a school where my mom and dad were teaching. [clears throat] They were both teaching math, and my dad also taught physics. And it had two apartments for schoolteachers. And that's where we lived, and it was kind of--very innocent. When I moved to the city at the age of ten, I mean, in American terms, it's not a city, but industrially was strong, it had a refinery of oil, so much richer than the countryside. And the cultural distinction was--the prevailing factor that was to determine my assimilation to the city culture, if you wish, because villagers, I don't know how else to translate the word. People, that people from the country are called, in our country are considered to be very simple and often stupid and are ridiculed. Especially if you're a kid, it's a bad thing to be from there. Now, something that's not typical for a typical country kid, I didn't really have that much of a country accent, and people usually do. But there were a few things that since my parents were teachers, right. I guess it was natural, not that I really care. But there were a few words that were quite typical for the area where I was coming from at that time. So my initial impression of Bosanski Brod, which is where I lived up until the war was quite--I was alienated, I think, for a while as a kid. I had problems just because I came from somewhere else. So, at a very young age, I started feeling as an alien, as a stranger in a few ways, which later on, I think helped me love people unconditionally. In a strange kind of way. You run from one extreme and on to the other one [laughs] sort of thing.

Shelly Drummond

How about brothers and sisters, do you have one sister?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, my mother was married twice, her first husband died. And then she remarried with my dad. And from her first marriage, she has the other child. And she only has two, my half-sister and me, I call her my sister. I mean, se's my sister. She's six years older than me, she was born in 1970. And she--well, I haven't seen her for seven years now.

Shelly Drummond

So she didn't come with you to Bowling Green?

Srdan Hkralovic

No, she had--yeah, a different life.

Shelly Drummond

Where does she live now?

Srdan Hkralovic

She's in Sweden, yeah. She finished high school, obviously much earlier than I have. And went to the University of Zagreb to study physics. She was intending to specialize in nuclear physics, a very excellent student, everything. And somewhere along the way, she decided to ditch all that, I think it was halfway through her third year at university that she became enthralled with the idea of the whole Hare Krishna. Respect and religion thing, it seems to fulfill her entirely and ever since I think 1990 is a fairly reasonable estimate. She stuck to it and devoted 100% of herself to it, as she usually does with everything else. And right now, she's in Sweden. Married happily, I hope. Actually, she might be coming this fall, which will be weird, to say the least. Seeing her, having changed her ideology so much since the last time I experienced her presence, and I've changed so much. Last time I was around, she was bossing me around like a little kid, which is what I was. "Take out the trash, you know . . . I'm your big sister listen to me, you know, or I'm gonna smack ya." [laughter] So, right now we're sort of an equal footing, and my pro--priorities have changed. And I've been to a lot of places, and she's been to a lot of places, and we've all been to a lot of places. And it's, it's fun.

Shelly Drummond

Tell me about how you made the decision to leave Croatia?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, it was it was all a mess. My first feeling and I guess the primary reason for leaving, was extreme discomfort and utter lack of safety and trusting people, whom I've lived with for years and years. And whose priority all of a sudden became my ethnic background, my genes, which I was completely unaware of. Anyway, and which, in my opinion, don't construe any part of my personality.

Shelly Drummond

What sort of ethic background were you?

Srdan Hkralovic

--Well, my father is ethnically a Serb. And my mother is ethnically a Croat. So it's, it's it was a weird situation, I was completely for the idea of Yugoslavia at the time, it sounded absolutely great. I felt like the Yugoslav didn't have anything against anyone. Still, though, probably never will. So when more or less all the people around, you come up to you and tell you will, can't do this, can't do that, or will kill you if you do that, which they did. My peers, you sort of start feeling a little bit insecure. So, at the time, I actually found myself in the middle of--I don't know how to describe it, confusion. The idea of your country suddenly disappearing, and all these countries creating themselves out of nowhere. With artificial borders, it seemed at the time, was just breathtaking. And I left it all to my parents, of course, [laughs] Didn't wanna deal with it--couldn't deal with it, I was fifteen years of age at the time. [clears throat] So, at first I stayed in Bosnia as soon as I could. And then I left to Croatia, to Split, to live with my uncle for a while, until like everything sorted out, but it didn't, of course, and in October '92, my town fell to the Serb forces, and we ended up going to Poland. Still, as refugees from Bosanski Brod on a program that was sort of a collaboration between Polish and Bosnian governments to relocate the schools until everything sorts out It was a makeshift refugee program, all of a sudden, you can't really go back, it's occupied. Okay, so that kind of thing. I actually--

Shelly Drummond

What do you mean?

Srdan Hkralovic

--Had trouble. That was--that was there was a sort of a humanitarian effort on the part of the Polish government. And nobody really thought that Bosanski Brod, the town in Bosnia, where my mom and dad worked and where we lived, was going to fall. Stories are and I'm convinced and everybody is who really was there and knows the course of things. The course that things took, that it was exchanged for another town in eastern Bosnia that was held by the Serbs. It was sort of like, oh, give us that, and we'll give you this. There was a little bit of illegal action taking place at the time because although it was a Bosnian territory, [the] Croatian army was commanding the whole operation of the defense of the city, and it ordered the local army to suddenly, in the middle of war, take two weeks leave. And they walked in. And something like a day or two later, they just withdrew. They just left they said, "the town is getting occupied everybody get out." So that's how it fell, quote, unquote. And that was--that was it and that was it. I had to go somewhere else. I knew I couldn't stay in Bosnia, because I was of mixed origin. The atmosphere in Croatia was very aggressive towards anybody who had anything to do with the Serbs and my father was a Serb, so I didn't feel safe there. I spent about five months in Split and it was very tense, living with my uncle, even they had something to do against it. They were wondering whether to trust my dad or not, although my mom was still with him. Guests would come by, realize that I had a Serb father and I would overhear them saying that, you know, "if you want this guy to stay alive, you will have to do something with him. I lived close to the beach, I spent a lot of time at the beach in Split and on the way to the beach, I would see the graffitis on the wall, which would just keep on reappearing every day. New ones "kill the Serbs, Serbs keep out," very extremist right-wing attitudes were popular. That was the in thing at a time. So, I just kept low and hoped to get out of the whole Balkan area as soon as possible. Of course, when I went to Poland--that came true.

Shelly Drummond

Okay. Would--would you have felt comfortable in Yugoslavia?

Srdan Hkralovic

Oh, no.

Shelly Drummond

Cause of the--

Srdan Hkralovic

What's Yugoslavia right now, it's Serbia, Montenegro. I've only been there like once. I don't really know the place. The family that I do have in Belgrade, I'm fairly distant towards, You know, it's like, it's like, [laughs] having a phone number from a girl, you know, won't go out with you and calling her anyway. It's, it was--it was something that had nothing for me there. And I saw and everybody who had anything happen to them in the war, saw that it was slowly moving from Slovenia, to Croatia, through Bosnia, and Serbia was going to get it next. So, there was no safety there. And it was just like, get out of the whole place. So,definitely no.

Shelly Drummond

So how did you get out?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, spending time in Poland was interesting and a complete waste of space, time and money. Because we were just sitting there without permissions to work, without adequate financial or any other assistance. We were just being kept alive. We were given enough food and it was symbolic, having to do with money, thinly veiled as, you know, pocket change.

Shelly Drummond

Well, how did you get--if you were living with your uncle, how did you get back together with your family before you left to Poland? Where were you?

Srdan Hkralovic

--I think it was southwestern Poland, the area that belonged to Germany before World War Two. High up in the mountains, near a ski resort called Zakopane, which is actually quite popular right now. [clears throat] Because, Poland is part of the European Union now and tourism there, it's just cheap, because you're going to sell it. And it's good. It's very comfortable there, clean air, etc. And everybody will have to slalom. Well, my family wasn't allowed to leave the city of Bosanski Brod [clears throat] because my father was a Serb. My mom had to stay there to protect his life, which several times was in danger. She had to intervene with the army commander for the for the town, and people were simply coming to the door saying "we'll kill him." And if--you know, if it weren't for the neighbors [clears throat] who knew us, appreciated us, respected us, my dad would probably be dead right now, and my mom probably with him. So, that was the reason they stuck together, and my dad couldn't leave, my mom was with him. And when the town fell, they obviously phoned my uncle in Split and said "come up to Osijek," which is another town in Croatia, actually a city, a bigger one, where we were to prepare to leave for Poland. And what we did there, we spent about a week and did a lot of red tape. What Polish officials did was to drag over a train from Poland and treat it as Polish territory, in Osijek. They set up the makeshift embassy I guess you could call it, where they just issued us alien travel documents, which would enable us to get through Hungary and what have you to get to Poland. That's--that's how we got together, that's how we ended up in Poland.

Shelly Drummond

What did they carry with them from your home and what did you carry with you?

Srdan Hkralovic

Oh, practically nothing. Yeaht, that's practically nothing. No I don't--nothing, nothing really. It just--the clothes that I had on me plus whatever I could fit in my bag. All our belongings, the car everything, it was all left behind. The jewelry, money, we didn't really have money. We use our money, we don't accumulate it. So it wasn't like a life savings to be left behind. So no, really nothing, empty pockets.

Shelly Drummond

Photos or--

Srdan Hkralovic

Some, yeah, like maybe 100 photos, all in all, were saved. But, there was so much that was lost. That meant a lot emotionally. And it was--it was just trauma for my parents more than me, because I didn't like the place anyway. But, I was--I was fifteen years old, what did I know? I'm only starting to respect adequately what being human is. And my mom and my dad, they were people you know, in their 40s at the time. The loss of whatever they had meant so much more for them because, they worked their whole lives to get it. And all of a sudden, it's like, [makes binging noise], you're not going to be there anymore. "We're going to take that away and if you kill those relatives and--you know, burn their house down and burn your house down and we're gonna kill you and blah, blah, blah, blah." So you know, they're the ones who suffered from neurosis. I was the one who was composed, because of ignorance. Really, I made myself stay out of it. Very quiet--very withdrawn as a personality. I didn't really change until I left Poland, actually. In that respect, because there was no other choice. I didn't want to affiliate myself with either the Serb camp or the Croat camp or the Muslim camp and there was no camps in between. And you know, I was a quiet guy in the middle reading a book and keeping himself to himself. So.

Shelly Drummond

Yeah. what about the first--your first day in Poland, what do you remember?

Srdan Hkralovic

[Laughs] That was fun. They provided accommodation for us. I don't know how to call your accommodation. The Bosnian language, Croatian language, Serbian language expression for it is mountain house, where skiers and hikers going and stay during their five day holidays, perhaps in the mountains. And the government hired those little houses, they were wonderful, surrounded by pine forests and oh, just breathtaking scenery and with refugees in there. So, we were basically in hotels, and the hotel that I was designated to was at the very top of the area. The day was stormy as hell. Rain wasn't falling, it was flying horizontally, the wind was amazing. And there was no transport to take us to the top. So, on my first day in Poland, I walked about two miles uphill, very steep uphill with an umbrella, what, horizontally in front of me [laughter] and that was my first day in Poland. Very brown, very bleak ,very miserable. Depression redefined, yeah.

Shelly Drummond

Did you know the other people?

Srdan Hkralovic

I knew a lot of them, they were all from Bosanski Brod. But it was [a] fairly big place. So, I didn't know all of them, but yes, I did know a lot. And [sighs] some of them were very delighted to see me. I met up with this girl whom I knew from before and she was a Croat. A clear Croat ethnically and we started dating, we just fell for each other. And a bunch of guys came up to us, they said--separately, and obviously that--well that they're gonna kill me if they don't--if I don't quit dating her, so we just drew apart. And that was the line that was drawn between us and them if you wish, only It wasn't us and them, but them and me, you know, so. I was one of maybe five, ten kids who were ethnically mixed. Everybody else was either this or that. No Serbs, obviously, in that camp. It was purely Croat and Muslim, apart from my dad.

Shelly Drummond

So did he have friends that he talked to or not, he just kept himself?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, if you can imagine living with someone, knowing that they're talking about you, behind your back, that if they could, they would harm you. But because of the situation they can't. And as a consequence, they are pretending to be polite. That was--that was the summary of the existence. "Hi, hello, how are you? Have you had a nice day?" "Yes" "let's sit down and talk about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But in reality, he was--he wasn't comfortable, felt like an outsider for my dad, especially [clears throat] And he did lose an eye, during fighting. He was--even in his young age, he was-- okay everybody in ex-Yugoslavia did national service for the army. He was told not to, because he had a back problem, it was--there was something wrong with his spine. So, he was designated to do civil service, which, which is nothing close to the army and the training that you have to go through. So, in the event of war, he would not bear arms. He's--not trained to use them. Maybe like, you know, if you really have to, but he wasn't like a commander or anything close to that. And when it came to the confrontation between the Croats stroke [struck] Muslim authority in the wartime. Bosanski Brod, the time where my mother had to protect him. When they saw it would be quite hard to get rid of this guy, my dad, because he did have quite a lot of support from his from Croat and Muslim friends, who knew him well and respected him. They simply forcefully mobilized him and sent him to the frontline. Where he spent, I don't, I don't know how long he spent there. But, sooner or later anyway, a grenade exploded fairly near to him and one shrapnel went through his head, knocking out his left eye. So he's an invalid of war. And that coupled with everything else was just, [sighs] it just brought him down. He's changed, he's not my dad anymore. He's, he has a closed personality keeps himself very much to himself, it's impossible to access his emotions. Absolutely impossible. I mean, my mom and I try all the time to bring him out. Because here in America, he doesn't really have to fear all the other stuff that he had on his neck, back home. And but--but it's hard. He's really. It really made him hide. So, I don't know. I'm smiling, but only because it turned out well, in the end, at least for me, and for all of us, hell, we are alive. I'm not gonna complain.

Shelly Drummond

How did you get to the United States? Do you know?

Srdan Hkralovic

[Laughs] Okay. I don't know. I have no idea how I ended up in the United States, it was never my intention. Never wanted to live in the United States. Never had anything that vaguely attracted me to United States. I wanted to say visit for the sake of places like Vegas, Niagara Falls, D.C. Seattle--

Shelly Drummond

Did you say Vegas?

Srdan Hkralovic

Yeah. You know, just the attractions, Grand Canyon, you know, veni vidi vici, that kind of stuff. I didn't really want to call it my home. [sighs] But, after Poland, the events that followed Poland and just everything that happened with my parents and me, just left only one door open for a possibility of a peaceful life. And that was, that was America, because we had the opportunity to go back to Croatia. Bosnia, we could go back to Bosnia, but if we did, it would not be good for my mom and dad. Bosnia right now is, I don't want to think about it. You know, people are divided. Bosnia was not divided before the war, it was like--it was like a very good chili, everything was well mixed up right now everything is being plucked out and Serbs are on one side and Croats on the other side. And Muslims have even said, "everybody hates everybody else."

Shelly Drummond

Okay.

Srdan Hkralovic

Croatia is more westernized right now, it's getting close to the European Union, its neighbors with Slovenia, Slovenia is a member of the ECC [European Economic Community]. So, it has a pressure on it to accept the value of human rights basically. And it's getting better, but they have fairly extreme laws. As a young country, for example, although my dad is married to my mom, and my mom would have no problem becoming a citizen of Croatia because she's born there. And so am I, it was, it was actually harder for me to get Bosnian documents than Croatian documents. I sent them over to the Bosnian embassy. And then I got a letter saying, "according to what we see, you are a citizen of Croatia, tell us something that--" And I wanted Bosnian documents, because obviously, then I would be a refugee and [clears throat] I could go back, because that's what I needed to do there. I couldn't do anything for myself, I needed the help of others. It's very bad to be dependent. It really makes you fight (??) and your self esteem. But he would have to wait five years in event of going back to Croatia before he would get citizenship and have a right to work. Economically, Croatia wasn't at that point in time, it still isn't now really, that well off for my mom to support all of us. And it was just a no, no. Plus, I would have to do national service in Croatia, and I did not want to do anything with the army. So America, yeah, okay, let's give it a shot. And it worked. It worked . And yeah, it worked. And we didn't come over here, as a lot of people did, for financial reasons. A lot of people were refugees in Germany for a number of years, and they said, "Ah, America-- America [speaking in Croatian]" I mean, just like, we'll, we'll have more money there. They expected Social Security, something I don't know what else, Germany's a very social state, you get a lot of it for free. And, you know, look at what my people did to my country, they are very greedy. And they can be very selfish, given the opportunity. And--it's, I don't know, I feel like a lot of people who are here have come for superficial reasons. And I'm glad that I didn't, I came here because I'd needed it. This was it, I couldn't be free over there, or over there or over there [laughs] You know, and over her, It's like, okay, fair enough. We're not going to like support you or anything, but we're giving you a chance to work. We're giving you a chance to study, you know, go ahead, can you prove yourself? That's all I wanted. And nobody, the whole thing about being a refugee, was that nobody would give you a chance to do anything for yourself. Couldn't do anything for yourself. The only way to live was to ask from others. I don't want to do that.

Shelly Drummond

How did you get located in Kentucky?

Srdan Hkralovic

Pure chance. I came over here before my parents. And it's like, if you can imagine a map of United States, refugee centers here and there, towns everywhere, somebody flipping a coin. Or, you know, just [laughs] just like spinning the arrow and oh, it's Bowling Green Kentucky. Okay. That was it.

Shelly Drummond

What did you think it would be like?

Srdan Hkralovic

I didn't, I made myself have no expectations. --I--I spent four years in England, met a lot of Americans in the proces. I spoke and was close to a lot of people who went to America. So, from the people whom I trusted to, I got a fairly good impression of what Americans' attitudes, cultural values, or lack thereof. [laughs] As--as undoubtedly, you know, is the usual European stance on the issue. I was fairly well prepared. So I was like no, I'm not going to expect anything. I'm just gonna go there, see what I find and go from there. And I didn't, and I must say, after almost a year and a half being there--being here, I don't feel a tinge of nostalgia for anything. There's so many people running around with big old Bosnian flags sprawled across their cars. And, and just, "no, we want to go back. We want to go back. We want to go back." You're not there, you're here and I'm just making the best of it. Having a good time doing it.

Shelly Drummond

How about your first day here.

Srdan Hkralovic

[Laughs] Space. Yeah, space was what got me in a crowded city of New York, there was so much space. And I mean, I lived in Europe for 21 year of my life and--I've never seen trucks that big. I mean, why? [laughs] You know, it's like what-- why are cars this big? Why are streets this wide? You don't need it? You know, it was a thing of comfort--it the whole thing--everything that I saw, the airport the streets, the city, the buildings spoke "we have space, we're going to use it." and I-- [Tape cuts off] Right, big cars. Somebody, this idea of a car is like, it's the drag strip mentality. I guess you could describe it as, you know, Mustangs, Camaros, big old tex (??). Okay? My--those are considered sexy cars here. My idea of a sexy car, the sexiest car is something small, powerful, agile, something, something that's tiny, but has power and ability, concentrated force, quality, you know. Take Take, take as much--take only as much space as you need to do something, you know. It's like, I'm going to feel comfortable in what, that's maybe spreading my feet across four feet of space. What is that a meter and--a meter and fifty centimeters. You know, in America, well, I can have two and a half. [laughter] You know, it's like, I don't want that. I don't want that. I utilize my space, I utilize my time, I've been taught to. I recognize the quality of doing that, of managing your resources the best way you possibly can. And the first impression I got here was, basically such an enormous waste of energy and space and words and everything. It was a cultural shock, really. Which is what I--which is what I expected, but I just soaked it in, It was nice. I had a grin on my face. Dealing with this will be fun kind of thing, so. Right now, it would probably be good, let's just take a little break. So I'll pause, do you want to take a little break? You have my permission.

Shelly Drummond

Okay, so, I'll pause the tape. Alright, we're back from our break. You were talking about space and using it. Do you think a lot of people have adjusted to that kind of space? I mean, I see some people driving Cadillacs and.

Srdan Hkralovic

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think it's hard not to diss those people right now. Because [clears throat] say, in a typical primary school in Bosnia, you will have--a certain amount of people will think they are harder than everybody else in--in terms of--I'm stronger than you, I can beat you up, or you can say anything, jerks. And, yeah, a jerk will drive a Cadillac, if jerking can drive a Cadillac, the jerk well, [laughs] so that's what they do. And again, not all Cadillac drivers are jerks. But you know, a lot of them--a lot of them do do that. They buy cars and get apartments and, and, and just buy things with the money they don't have. The things that they buy, they don't like and they're buying it for people who don't like them. Just so that those people can say, "Oh, he's got a very big car, I'd better get a bigger one." It's [clears throat] that's materialism. It's showing off. It's--I don't know--I don't know. That's what I think it is. Selfishness.

Shelly Drummond

I'm intrigued by the--for so long, Yugoslavia was a communist country, under Tito-- [Josip Broz Tito] --Socialist, that's right, socialist. And people were really happy with that. They liked at that time, I hear a lot of good things about Yugoslavia at that time. What do you think would be the big--the biggest adjustment? I mean we're talking about space in the use of you know, in purchasing things as status symbols? How would you relate that to--the way you--the way you grew up?

Srdan Hkralovic

Socialist

Shelly Drummond

Where I grew up? Or in how people, even the older people that grew up and spent many, many more years than you did under a socialist system, to then come and start doing a lot of--purchasing big American cars and?

Srdan Hkralovic

Well, the only thing that I have to speak from in those terms is my own meandering experience. My mom is the head of our household. Her idea of money is energy. Get it, use it, use it well. Make sure you don't dissipate it. It's not something that you accumulate, it's not something that you show off. And [sighs] the contrast between that and the United States is as well, it's huge. It's, I would say that for all terms and purposes, well, most of Europe is socialist right now. Britain is Labour, which is basically social democrats. So is Germany, which is the biggest industrial force in the whole of Europe. Greens have a lot of influence there. Italy has always been known for its Communist Party. And still they work with money. It's it's not the money itself. It's it's the use of money. And you can get extremely rich in Germany, if you want. But, just as well, if you don't, there is a social system of support to fall back on. That--that will be there for you and say "nobody has to pay for health care." I mean, if you get sick--here, it's--it's like, to live you need money. There is no--it's like you need money over there, but hey, if if you really can't do anything to get it, and then somebody will help you. Whereas here it's--it's--it's all there is. It seems like people are accumulat--accumulating money, just accumulating it, just for the sake of having it and sticking it in their ears and pouncing around. It's it's, it's, it's like, the money stops being energy, but like, something that's desirable, like, love, and respect, it's a different attitude towards money. That is present really, in the workings of the country as a whole. I'm not talking about the people, the people are the same everywhere.

Shelly Drummond

Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic

But, those who have the power and the way they treat it and the greed as is--is greater in America than over here. It is, it is hard to understand why a country that is most powerful on the planet spends like, two times, twice more energy, per capita energy in--in general, than the next one in--in the world, which is Germany. [clears throat] Now, Germany is a very prosperous country, very prosperous, but there is nothing you can't have in Germany, you probably get it easier in Germany than in the United States. But um, an average American spends twice more energy than the Germans do, you know, electricity and stuff. People leave their lights on, their fans on in a room they're not in. It's like, why do that? That's--really why the purpose--the impression that you would get, if you grew up in that society, and accepted that as normal, was that energy was infinite, which it isn't. I'm gonna sound like a green fanatic right now, but trees are getting cut down. They do give us oxygen, which we breathe, which is why we live, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We're destroying our planet. It's not free, we are paying for it. Sooner or later we will. And if you don't, your kids will and if you don't care about your kids, then you should kill yourself. [laughs] Basically, it's it's it's just an attitude. It's like we're the greatest, we have it and we don't care. Say you're watching the news in Germany. So you're watching the news in the U.K. They'll have general elections in India. Demonstrations in the Philippines, regularly on the news. And here, the local news, the television stations that you get over cable that--I mean, unless CNN or some international channel, or BBC America are very localized, and they're about things that I mean, I'm shocked. It's--this is America, this is free speech. This is information age, and to really get something, you have to go to the internet. Like, living off CNN is impossible, whereas CNN International is a completely different thing. Because they know, say, Europeans won't buy the same information that Americans will. People just are seemingly less concerned with what happens in the rest of the world. Unless it affects them of course, you know. If Iran doesn't give oil and we will go and take the oil. [laughs] And that kind of stuff, you know, who's the new Prime Minister of Australia is--is completely irrelevant. The new outbreak of mad cow disease in New Zealand is--is irrelevant as well. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, and a tiger escaped from National Zoo? [Gasps] What? You know, this is something I'll expect to find in a--in a monthly edition of a zoo fan club. You know, it escaped, go catch it, don't put it on national TV. And it's like, it doesn't deserve the time, it's not an important piece of information. It's just a value system. It's almost people are being lulled into a sense of security. Everything else has been screened away from them. I can't imagine, you know, NBC regularly showing documentaries about Hungary and Africa, like eplicitly. You know, I go there, and there's Crossfire, and they got some Republican, [sighs] cross eyed senator, talking about whether we should put [the] Ten Commandments in the classroom or not. And then a week later, they have the same thing. [laughs]

Shelly Drummond

Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic

And it's just on and on and on and on. And--and I guess you know, but it's a free country. That's what I think. Hey, if you don't like it, go sue me, you know when the (??) ?

Shelly Drummond

Do people in Bowling Green talk to you a lot about the war in the former Yugoslavia? Do they try to?

Srdan Hkralovic

Bowling Green natives? I don't know. I don't meet any Bowling Green natives, very rarely I do. That's one thing. Okay. A person who doesn't speak English, who spends a year in a town the--the size of Bowling Green in England, will know English. You cannot avoid communication with locals. People walk on the sidewalks wherever you are, and people communicate. People don't patronize. People want to know, people care. And you want to speak to the people because, all of a sudden you--you feel like you're in England. When you're in America, you just feel like oh, well, okay, I'm an American, I guess. It's like, when you go to Rome, you feel that you were in Rome, you feel the Roman atmosphere. When I'm in London, you feel a London atmosphere, and when in Berlin, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Here, it is so undefined. Everything is split into little--little old groups and everybody's let alone to make a home for themselves. Whatever their vision is, go make it come true. You know, realize your dream. The sense of society is very abstract, if there is one, and it's based on wonderful things, tolerance, universal freedom for all. But--it's almost like there's a fear [laughs] towards--towards society and good social standards. It's--it's like well, if we have that, then we can't have this but you can. You can be you know, a German, ethnically proud of it. And you know, you can also have free speech and everything else.

Shelly Drummond

Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic

In fact, say--say I was a--say I was a Satanist. Okay, say I was, well, you were laughing Of course, say I was a Satanist and say I was wearing a t-shirt, you know with a freshly, freshly made photo of cut off pig's head on it. And 666 tattooed across my forehead, okay. I have the perfect right to be a candidate for, I don't know, Germany's parliament. Okay, it's perfectly okay. Whatever I wear, whatever I have in my body, there is no social stigma. You want to do it? Go ahead and do it. It's you, it's your life, fine. Here, it's like well, it's just a feeling well, I'd better not. Okay, I think that, but I'm not gonna let the other people know, because then they might--. It's like, certain things are unacceptable here, you know. --It's almost like I had more freedom for self-expression over there. Nobody had to bring up the statute, or the constitution in Europe, it was just taken for granted. Here, amendments are being quoted all the time, it's like, in order to feel free, you have to really convince yourself that this stuff is true. Whereas over there, you just draw up to it. And--it's a different feeling, it's not a homey feeling. It's a very, America is a very antagonistic environment. That's what I feel, and that's generally the European view, everything is out to get you, it--it really is. You can get--you can--you can--you can go y--you know, in debt very easily. Everybody wants you to go in debt [chuckles], they send you like fifteen credit cards offers in the mail every single day. And it's--it's so hard to get anything done without money, without fighting and without sucking up. Let's be real. And, I don't know, I feel like I'm overly criticizing the country that has provided me with something, in the end. But, that's--just like everybody else here, I'm an immigrant. And--and so are you. And I have a right to do it. And if--I love this country, I love America. And, you know, I really want it to work, I think the foundations of its constitution, and the very ideas it's been built on, are absolutely excellent. There isn't a single flaw in them. They work well, you know, maybe if you were nit picky, really, you could you know, but you can always do that with any idea. That's, that's the human nature. But I--but I really do love it. It's--but the constitution says, if you have something against something, then you know, go ahead and say it, but there's--I don't know, I feel I feel like a fear to walk up to anybody, just in the street and--and say it. It's like people keep to themselves very much.

Shelly Drummond

What do you think the impact of having as many people moving to Bowling Green from Europe, or--and other countries as well, different countries, is going to have on Bowling Green? Have you seen a difference?

Srdan Hkralovic

There won't be one, very clearly visible for a number of years, I think. But, wherever people from my country go to, they usually find a way to get a fairly comfortable life. Some of them become very affluent. So, maybe in a few years time, some names will start circulating. Like Johnny Webb has a ring right now, who knows? It'll get stupider might have a ring in four years. You know, or Robert, I know Robert, I had a drink with him once. [laughter] Great, I'll give you a roll in my new movie You know, that kind of stuff. But, I don't--I think it's natural. On the contrary, the way I'm speaking, really does, I would--if I was listening to myself, I would perhaps get the impression that I disagree with everything that's happening with America. But, I think that you know, people usually just keep on doing. America is--once was a country-- once was a nation-state when Indians were here. They were natural with it, they respected it. And the white man came and screwed it all. Pardon my French, the French will probably be insulted by that, but nevermind. There is--there is no going back there--there is no room for corrections, America is too big to--to mess with. And--I think humans have, you know, over the course of history, proven their ability to make something come out of nothing. Whether they credit--accredited it to themselves or to divine intervention, I think it will all turn out okay in the end. It's perfectly natural for immigrants to come to America. America--Americans are immigrants. Everybody is a mixture of something and I--I don't worry about it one little bit.

Shelly Drummond

What would you want people in the future to know about your experience here? Maybe one thing, if you have children, and they listen to this tape with their children, great--grandchildren listen to this tape, what do you want them to knowabout your life? What would be your message to them?

Srdan Hkralovic

[Sighs] It's hard to say, perhaps if you gave me a year to write a novel about it [laughs] my life, oh, I don't want him to know--to worry about my life. --My life is for me to worry about, I want them to worry about their life. If I have kids, I will--I will expect from them to really know what they're saying about before they say it. I--really think something through before they come to a conclusion. To be extremely critical, and first and foremost, to criticize me. Because they are my kids, and therefore, they will be my kids, oh God. [laughing] I'm talking to him present simple here, this is not good. I will want them to be better than I am. And actually, they will be better than I am. My set of values is my set of values, you know, their set of values will be their set of values. --I'm quite unlikely to come up to them-and seriously say, "this is not good." I'm, I don't know what to tell them about my life. I really don't. I lived and I died. That's about it. You know, you go ahead, you live and you die. And this is certainly the--there is certainly a higher purpose in life, whether you choose your own unique, customized version of spirituality and awareness of everything that exists or whether you take a path that is freely available at every corner in Bowling Green, through the numerous churches, as well as any other religion in the world. You're free to take it and just go ahead. Feel free to be afraid. Don't be afraid to figure anything out because you can do it, if you persist. And above all, don't take offense. Offense is a very dangerous thing. And people, people, people don't offend other people. People get offended themselves. I think--I think negative feelings are by far the greatest obstacle to any success. And positive feelings are by far the greatest distraction. If there is too much, too many of them. I--I would ask them politely and humbly to try to understand harmony, and the universe and the time and everything that exists in their part in it. And I hope that the conclusion they come to is that they're a part of it just as important as any other part. And that they try to spread that awareness to others. I don't know how, kids if you do know and you know, please tell me. [laughter] So I don't stutter anymore. And feel all this nervousness.

Shelly Drummond

You talk about--I mean you work at the refugee center.

Srdan Hkralovic

Yeah.

Shelly Drummond

Teaching English. What do you think about--tell me about the refugee center.

Srdan Hkralovic

The refugee center?

Shelly Drummond

Yeah. In--your experience--early experience with people that come into the scene.

Srdan Hkralovic

Okay, should I practice sudden hospitality and be polite about the refugee center here or should I put forth my version of reality? [laughs]

Shelly Drummond

If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to--but--you could be--you could be candid,

Srdan Hkralovic

Candid.

Shelly Drummond

Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic

I don't appreciate candidness. Really. So, unless it's absolutely necessary, but there's no enemies here whom I have to be candid for, no battle to win. So, I think the refugee center is very badly organized, and the people who are doing it have no clue about what they're doing. But, it's working, somehow the people who are coming in are carrying it through and pardon the expression, we are kicking their ass. And it's, it's a nasty state of affairs. The office doesn't have enough resources to handle all the people that are coming in. When the people come in, they're not given the adequate support, not meaning they're not given enough money, but they're not given adequate support. They're not made to feel at home, made to feel like a part of the greatest thing--of Bowling Green--of Kentucky, of the states, of the world, whatever. There's simply, it's sometimes it's just too much of a business deal. And it shouldn't be, this is new lies that we're creating, and I feel that the attitude is--is wrong. Now, you know, the employees and--and the bosses certainly justify it very well. But, over the course of history again, you know, if you work at it, you can pretty much prove anything you want [chuckles]. And you know, just choose a stance and you'll be able to justify it, but I don't, I don't. I wouldn't call it my home. I do this not because of the refugee office, but because of the people. And really, yeah, the only thing I do now is just teaching, which I used to be an actual employee, and my--my title was resettlement assistant. Wow, PhD [laughter]. So that--I don't do that anymore. Because--because there's very little one can do. People, people who don't--don't try where they can and sometimes they don't smile, and sometimes people are very selfish, and everybody blames it on somebody else. And if that fails, then they just ignore it. --I don't know. I wish it the best. I don't--I don't want it to stop existing. By--by any means., it's--it's way too early. Even if people stopped coming in right now, there's too many who have already come here who do need support, translation services and--and what have you. But, you know, it could have been done better.

Shelly Drummond

Okay. There is--there was a fire--just for the tape even--there was a fire recently in an apartment building. And how many families were living there? They were just resettled here.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

I'm not quite sure.

Shelly Drummond 1:

But there--I think there were about forty people that were living there, and the apartment building caught on fire.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Eight apartments in the whole building, I think, I'm pretty sure it's eight.

Shelly Drummond 1:

And they were all from Kosovo. What's the--

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Some of them were from Bosnia, but let's not get picky--

Shelly Drummond 1:

Were some of them from Bosnia?

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Yeah.

Shelly Drummond 1:

Okay.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

--There were immigrants from, yeah, Bosnia. and Kosovo.

Shelly Drummond 1:

Okay. What do you have to add to that? This is a recent event that is sort of devastating, I mean.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

I think I should call on Alanis Morissette for that one. Isn't it ironic? [singing] Yeah, you--you get your family out of the war zone and you managed to take some of your belongings with you. You were--you were ecstatic about being alive. You come to America, everything was going well for a few months and then everything you had was burned down. [laughs] It's sort of--it's black humor, that's what it is. --I don't know what else to say. Shit happens.

Shelly Drummond 1:

Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

That's it.

Shelly Drummond 1:

Had people with the refugee center been doing anything?

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Oh, yeah. They've spent a considerable amount of money on that. I don't know how much but you know, thousands of dollars resettling them because--because these people lost everything. Everything that they brought over from, you know, from their home, it was lost now. I think most of everything that could burn was burned. So, this is starting anew for them and they had to be just supplying them you know, stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff and stuff from this and that and everything. And---and it was stressful for everybody. And actually, there is a family in my class was one of the victims of the nasty occurrence. And it was just terrible seeing them there--they had no motivation, they just like, oh, man, you know, I can't believe this. So, but--I don't know it--it's just very, very bad luck, I guess. I do feel anger for the owner of the building who did not--who is probably the first one to be called responsible for you know, having electrical circuits operating in a building where you know, sparks fly freely. It's, it's, it's not a good thing. [chuckles] I wouldn't do it and that person sure as hell is not going to get any respect from me or anybody else. So, it's not there at all. It's like something happens to you, and you didn't invite it--and it just breaks down your door, that's just bad.

Shelly Drummond 1:

Do you have anything else that you'd like to add? We've been talking about different--

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Well, it's like how much tape do we have left? [laughs]

Shelly Drummond 1:

We can always go to more.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

Yeah.

Shelly Drummond 1:

If you're tired, yes. Yeah.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

I don't know. [sighs] You know, I'm twenty two, my composure is not very good yet. People say that humans reach their verbal expression, ability peak around the age of thirty. So, if I'm left alone to talk about anything, you know, any potential listener will not be able to follow me. So, unless you don't have any more questions--it's better for all of us--

Shelly Drummond 1:

Okay.

Srdan Hkralovic 1:

--Involved to stop right now, but it's been a pleasure talking to you.

Shelly Drummond 1: