Oral History Interview with Marleen Flynn

LUANN JOHNSON: I'm LuAnn Johnson and I'm interviewing Marleen Flynn in her home in Bowling Green on the Fourth of July, 1999. And we're going to be talking about her life uh, in Holland. Where were you born in Holland?

MARLEEN FLYNN: On island in the southwest. (indeterminable). And when I was four months old, my parents moved to the very northeast. Kind of the opposite. And we lived there for there years only, and then went to Zurich. A very small village in the...mideast...and then to (indeterminable) when I was ten. And that's where 1:00I lived when I left home and went to nursing school. After that my parents moved one more time to (indeterminable) which is still in the same region, kind of in the mideast there.

JOHNSON: Um, you seemed to move a lot, around a lot. Was that because of the (indeterminable) or...

FLYNN: Well my father was a school teacher, and actually his whole history--my mother's family (indeterminable) for a hundred years, you know. And all my uh, aunts and uncles and nephews and nieces and grandparents and all that lived, stayed in (indeterminable) island. But he uh, he just wanted to change his position. He was offered a principal in another place and he wanted to pursue that.

JOHNSON: Was it a big difference between the island um, life and then living elsewhere?

FLYNN: Well, it is really. Because the people speak a dialect. And every region 2:00has its own dialect. So...you know, at the island, they never spoke anything else. It was that dialect. So then go to the very different regions, to completely different. It's almost like a different language. So that's way different. And they are also cultural difference. You know, in general. People live a little different. It's almost like changing countries. So they have one, of course one...uh, common language also. That is taught in school. And that everyone knows, but...for just for socializing it's sometimes hard for people to live in another region. Especially for older people who don't understand the local dialect.

JOHNSON: So, when you moved around as a child then, did you have to--how many different dialects did you end up learning?

FLYNN: I never, I never learned the other ones. I might you know, pick up a little bit. But I would just always speak just regular dutch with everybody. That's...more so now of course than way back when they didn't travel as much around.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: Of course my mother is still--I could go on and on. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Oh do, please.

FLYNN: It's still and issue for my mother, for example. Because she has to go to a nursing home. And she is in a place that she did not learn the dialect of. Even though she's been living there for twenty years now. And...she decided to go back to the nursing home on the island because she would be able to talk with people in the nursing home there. Maybe they'll talk dialect with each other. Rather than into a nursing in (indeterminable) where she lives now because she feels she will be an outsider. Just, even though she has there friends and family, too...So it's still an issue for her.

JOHNSON: That's a big thing, that's a big issue.

FLYNN: Yeah.

JOHNSON: To be part of the community. Um, so when do you--when did you start learning English? Is that something that's taught in school?

FLYNN: Uh, age twelve. The first year of high school. And nowadays they start at age ten. Fourth grade, they will start English. As we shift in the past in Holland--when my father was still teaching school, up to about 4:00'90...uh...mid-'60s maybe, they would teach French in primary school also. Besides Dutch. That was, you know, one of the...other languages. And they would start in fourth grade. And then they didn't teach any foreign language for a while in primary...school. Until uh...maybe ten years ago they started teaching English in fourth grade. And of course, when everyone is twelve they will learn also, they will learn Spanish, English, and German in high school. Everyone gets those three automatically.

JOHNSON: There's a lot of language in school.

FLYNN: Yeah and then uh, after a few years of high school, you can choose. You can--you have to keep one foreign language. You can keep them all if you want to, but you have to at least keep one.

JOHNSON: So you learn the basics of each language?

FLYNN: Yeah. Yeah. And some schools will offer some other languages but not, not too much.

JOHNSON: And what was the size of the towns that you lived for the most part in?

(00:05:01)

FLYNN: Um, when I was born, oh, I don't know exactly. It was maybe uh...four 5:00thousand people? And then the next one was smaller. Maybe a thousand. And then the next one maybe was only a hundred families. Zurich. And the one after that...eight thousand? And the one--well, then I left home. Yeah. And where my mother lives now is six, is a community of six thousand people. It's three little small villages.

JOHNSON: Is that uh, a typical size of the towns?

FLYNN: Village. Yeah, we call them villages. The towns are bigger, of course.

JOHNSON: Oh.

FLYNN: After I left home, I lived in uh, a couple towns. I didn't even mention that. Because I went to nursing school in Delft. And they had, that's a big town. I mean they have...500,000 people maybe. And then Utrecht is uh, maybe 750,000 people living there. That's the two towns I worked in hospitals.

JOHNSON: So you went to nursing college?

FLYNN: Well, it was a hospital based school. They call it diploma, I think here. And the, it was a program, three and a half years. You went to school and worked at the same time. You were an employee of the hospital already during the training. So it was the first three months, you just went to school, twelve weeks. But you got paid. (laughs) And then uh, after those three months you have to do an exam, and then you would start your uh, just work. During those three months you have some practical...exposure also. And then you work like five weeks and have one week of school. All the rest of the three and a half years.

JOHNSON: Okay. And did you--was there specialties that you go into...

FLYNN: Not during that period. That was general nursing. You did everything. Surgery, medical...uh, nursing. Obstetrics, gynecology, urology, dermatology. I mean every--all, not specializing, all the areas you would cover. And every year you have to do exam. Psychiatry was optional. We got the theory, and I never, I 7:00was never exposed to the practical part. But some of us were. Because the, there was a separate psychiatric training for nurses. So, it was not necessarily in your general nursing, which I did. But you could, because there was a psychiatric ward in the hospital. And um, surgery was included. And then at the very end you would do a national exam. A written and oral exam.

JOHNSON: And so you, you worked then for how many years after?

FLYNN: I, I stayed for one year in this particular hospital, which was in Delft. Uh, at the lung uh, ward. Lung specialist. Lung diseases. Then I uh decided I wanted to do intensive care training. I went to a hospital--or a university 8:00hospital. It was a bigger hospital. And that's where I did intensive care training. In Utrecht.

JOHNSON: Okay.

FLYNN: Which uh, also (indeterminable), it was one and a half year training. It was quite extensive. We did, they had a cardio, cardiology. Cardio surgery. General surgery, which had trauma and large operations. And medical intensive care, which had mainly lung diseases and other internal intoxications and some of those. You know, people on breathing machines. Um...neurological intensive care, and then there was surgical intensive care. So it was, at each of those places they were six weeks during the one and a half year. You had your theory besides that. And you also, we also went through anesthesiology for six weeks there. That took a year, and then the last six months you chose one speciality. 9:00I chose uh, heart surgery. And then, when I finished with that course, I stayed another five years at the heart surgical uh, floor, or intensive care there.

JOHNSON: It seems like a good intensive care unit.

FLYNN: It was a nice, it was a good training.

(sounds of a child)

JOHNSON: How many hours a day would you be working?

FLYNN: Eight.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: Yeah, eight.

JOHNSON: So, that's...

FLYNN: Nobody worked more. (laughs) Here you have to work twelve.

JOHNSON: And where were you living at the time? What was your housing like?

FLYNN: Uh, the hospital would offer cheap uh, rooms. You had your own room and little kitchen and shower. Bathroom. And that's where I mainly stayed. The whole. In Delft I stayed at (indeterminable), and then I lived for a year with my sister who also lives in Delft. And then I lived in just in somebody else's house for a few years, too.

(00:10:06)

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: So (indeterminable). And in Utrecht I stayed only in hospital room, 10:00apartments. Two different ones.

JOHNSON: How did you find yourself moving to America? What brought you to the States?

FLYNN: Well, after I finished the intensive care...no that--anyway, I traveled in 1979. It was after my general nursing training I already met Terry. Who was from America. I went to Israel to visit my sister there. And uh, Terry was there visiting with a friend, and worked there for a while. And that's where we met and we just became friends and kept contact over the years. And I went back (baby sounds) to do my intensive care training. And then I also went for two years to England to do midwifery training.

JOHNSON: Oh.

FLYNN: After that, still. But during the time I was in Utrecht and England, I met Terry several times, you know. In uh, Holland in Germany in France in England. Because that was where we were both living. In America one time even, I 11:00came here one time.

JOHNSON: Was that for training or vacation?

FLYNN: No, it was vacation.

JOHNSON: So you kept in touch and would meet and visit.

FLYNN: Yeah, we visited, and wherever we were--you know, whenever we had a vacation and wherever one of us was, that's where we would travel around. And then we go back to our own place where we were. Because he was two times six months in Germany during this time, and a year in France where he studied the French language for a year.

JOHNSON: What was his uh--was he with the military? Or....

FLYNN: Part of that. Part of that. As a reserve officer, year. He's not, he's an individual...reserve. Individual reserve. He doesn't belong to a unit or something. But um, we kept in contact. And then when I finished my midwifery training, which took uh, almost two years in England. He visited me. But he was 12:00on his way back to America. After France....And uh, he visited and we decided to get married. So we got married in England. North Hampton.

JOHNSON: So it was a um, spur of the moment or had you planned it for a while?

FLYNN: Well, yeah. It was kind of, not really long-term planning. But we asked my mother and my sister to come over. We didn't tell them we were going to get married. But they were there when we got married. That was all the family that was there. (laughs) And then two friends that I worked with were there, too.

JOHNSON: Was it a surprise for them, or...

FLYNN: Uh, they kind of expected it. Yeah. Terry had been several times in Holland. I mean they kind of expected it.

(children talking in the background)

JOHNSON: Had you um, um, always wanted to live in another country? Or had you...

FLYNN: No, not really. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Was it kind of a surprise?

FLYNN: It sounds like I--the thing is I'm a very um...homey person. I love home. I live in one--I need a base. That I (indeterminable). I don't know really what 13:00(indeterminable) all this traveling.

JOHNSON: Where did you first move to um, when you went to the United States?

FLYNN: Uh, after England...(talking with children) Um...

JOHNSON: Did you move right to Kentucky or did you live other places first?

FLYNN: (indeterminable) we first came to Kentucky. From England, we went back to um--well Terry said he wanted to spend some time with his parents. With his father and his mother. They were divorced. And he had to do some courses for the army. And I wouldn't have mind to just stay in Europe. I didn't feel necessarily an urge to go to America. But I felt--you know, when you get married you have to 14:00stay together. So he actually urged me to stay another year in England to get a year of practice in with my degree. But I found that unacceptable. So I just quit and went with him. We went first to Holland for three months. And I got my green card during that time. And we applied or that because they told us it would be quicker, outside of America than in America. So, then we went, and during that we traveled. We took a bike ride through Holland for two weeks. And went to Russia and all kinds of things. Then went to America. Arrived in New York on Halloween day. Took a Greyhound bus to Paducah, Kentucky.

JOHNSON: Wow.

FLYNN: Stopping in Philadelphia (laughs) on the way to visit his friend that he was with in Israel recently when I first met him. And then we went onto Paducah.

(00:15:03)

JOHNSON: And you had been to America once before. Was that--what was your first impressions coming um, into Newark--New York City on Halloween? (laughs)

FLYNN: I wasn't even aware of it. Where we just stayed in the airport and the bus station. And I didn't even notice people were dressed funny or not. To be honest, I don't remember.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: I never heard of Halloween before. So it was not something...

JOHNSON: It's not something you celebrate in Holland?

FLYNN: No. But I didn't notice. I just know I arrived that day. (laughs)

JOHNSON: And then, taking the long bus trip, was that...

FLYNN: That was hard.

JOHNSON: A new experience?

FLYNN: Yeah. Because it was, it was very hard for me to just come to America. Which I never thought it would. I thought it would be easier to go to America than England for example. Because I thought I would be more...mmm...more diverse, you know. And therefore people would be be more uh, open for you. And I 16:00don't know if it was me because (indeterminable) and away from my family, that I was less uh, adaptable than in England, for example. In England I was, I felt home after eight months, you now. Once I got the language straightened out, and you know, there was all kinds of things I was involved in. I had friends and...I felt home. But here I still don't feel it really. In America I've had a hard time. But um, when we first arrived, his mother piked us up and we lived for eight months in his mother's house. And that was hard for me. Because I was, I basically lost my independence. Because I was--you know, since I was 17 I was taking care of myself. Traveled all over the world. Did all the training and nursing and...working. And uh, then I came here and, you know...I didn't drive car. So I couldn't go anywhere. I didn't know how to get even a gallon of milk. Or how to go to the library. Um, I was just stuck there.

JOHNSON: Because you needed a car to get to those places?

FLYNN: You needed a car to get to these places. And uh, and even I had a bike, I couldn't get to them, you know. In Holland you can get everywhere. In England also you can walk and bike everywhere. And here I suddenly couldn't go anywhere. Plus if I was in a car, I didn't remember how the roads went. Because I was not used to driving, I guess, and learning the road that way. So I got lost all the time. Even--Terry taught me how to drive pretty soon. We arrived to town I think in February. I don't even know when I had my first driver's license. After a few months he started...taking me out to a driving school--drive...driving lessons? Driving...

JOHNSON: Wow that's a big, that's a big shock then. And what other things did you find different?

FLYNN: Um, the climate was very different. Because uh, especially--before I left 18:00Holland, I especially bought myself a new winter coat. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: And that first winter in America, I never had to wear it.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: Because it was a very warm winter. And like February we were already wearing shorts, and it never really got cold. And that was very different. And then it was the heat. I couldn't tolerate it. So in April already it was, kind of, lost my energy because already it was too hot for me. And uh, that last until like...through the whole summer. And the winter itself was very depressing. Of course we have got a lot of green trees, and then in the winter to lose all the leaves and everything is brown and gray. And I saw, I didn't see any color. So like, October 31st, it was kind of--and then like six months it took before the green came back on the trees, and I thought, "Well this is such a terrible, boring--and it was so sad."

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: It was nothing here. No color, no green, everything is brown and dead. I couldn't even believe that anything could come back alive. It looked so dead to me.

JOHNSON: And so you moved there and you were, you had no way of getting around and, and did you...what did you do all day? When you--how'd you spend your days?

FLYNN: Well not much. I mean...and I was in a, in a very poor mental status. I couldn't uh, tolerate much. Going to a shop with Terry and his mother was already so overwhelming for me during that time. I was just um...going--basically felt I went crazy during that first time. It was very hard. It was...And I felt sad myself. I felt if I would've just been alone with Terry...in, even if it was just one-room, bedroom apartment somewhere, it would have been easier on me. Because I would--having his mother there made it harder, too. She's very controlling. Plus Terry basically was there to do things for her. So he was all day doing things for her. She had a new house built, which still needed a lot of work. And then he had to do administrative things for her. 20:00Um, because she, you know, she just needed that help. And he especially went back to America to do these things. But I felt like I didn't have any, anything to do. And then I--not then yet, but later I realized I should have stayed another year probably in England. Doing my thing. Because Terry was not really ready for, you know...

(00:20:20)

JOHNSON: Mmm.

FLYNN: Um, picking up life with me. Um, kind of...like that.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Yeah, he had to finish up um, his other...

FLYNN: He had to do this, and uh...anyway.

JOHNSON: Well, did you um...this sense of independence that you grew up with and, and your, your um...I guess, wanting a career, is that, was that pretty typical? Is that part of the value system in Holland?

FLYNN: Yeah.

JOHNSON: For most young people.

FLYNN: Yeah, I wold think so.

JOHNSON: So moving back to live with your parents would be--it's unusual?

FLYNN: It's unusual, yeah...Yeah.

JOHNSON: When you uh...then after you got here and settled in a little while, did--what kind of process allowed you to start practicing medicine? Or start practicing nursing again?

FLYNN: Uh...well we moved to Indianapolis for a while. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: After another trip, we spent several months traveling again here, too because Terry took something on with the army. But it was later. Now when we first went to Indianapolis, that was also because the army. He wanted a course, to do some courses with them. And he did it on an army post in Indiana, Indiana post. (children yelling in the background) So we lived there in an apartment, and once we got settled, and like after a couple, few weeks, I applied for a job. In a hospital there. I worked as a nursing technician.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: And during that time, I also uh, looked into the registration as a nurse 22:00here. What I needed to do. And I applied to it and they had to send stuff from Holland from my training there to see the curriculum and all that. What I had done there. And uh, ended up that to become registered here, I still needed to do some extra psychiatry. (laughs) Because I had to do my practical part. You had to, you had to have done theory and practical, and I only did the theory of that. So they made me do a course of psychiatry. A full--it didn't matter what level it was, I could, whatever was available, you know, whether it was the two-year program or the four-year program. And the four-year program was available. So I did three months in a Bachelor's degree program in Indianapolis University of psychiatry.

JOHNSON: And that was all it took to get it?

FLYNN: Yeah. Well, well, to apply for the national exam. The NCLEX.

JOHNSON: Okay.

FLYNN: Once I had done that, I could apply for the NCLEX and sit--the boards they call it. And I sat through there, through that, and then uh, I was registered.

JOHNSON: So have you um...are were there any big difference between how you were trained in Europe versus how they practice, or how you nurse here?

FLYNN: Not really big, big differences.

JOHNSON: How about attitudes about health care, or attitudes about hospitals, or...

FLYNN: Um...

JOHNSON: The patients, are they different?

FLYNN: Um...there are of course some differences and some are subtle so you don't even notice them right away. Um, let me think here. In Holland at that time, they still the (indeterminable) nursing, primarily. Now they have more of the, the out of hospital trappings more. So like here in the United States um...let's see. There's a few differences. There are more LPNs and technicians 24:00here that kind of do the baths, vital signs, and things. While in Holland kind of the nurse does everything. More so. That was one thing that...And um...What I noticed when I first started here was that--which I don't even notice anymore now, but that people here would ask the patient, "Do you want your bath now or later?" And in Holland, certain time of day was baths and, you know, the patient didn't really have a choice. And it was depending on their physical status when you would do it and how often. Rather than if they felt like it at that moment. (laughs) And which here, you know, you would ask the patient if they wanted to have their bath or this or that and...Where in Holland you know, well, "Now is time for your bath." Because otherwise you wouldn't get your work done. That kind of thing. Well, here it happens also at times. Especially where I work. Intensive care. But...that was one thing that I noticed in the beginning that I thought was different. Um, I think the relation...with the doctors is a little different. It's a little more distant here. Seems like that it's maybe a certain 25:00fear of the nurses for a lot of doctors. Doctors, you know...doctors, I think doctors can put nurses down here. Just for now reason. And sometimes for a reason. But in Holland I've never seen that happen.

(00:25:18)

JOHNSON: So there's more respect for one another in Holland?

FLYNN: Yeah. (child yelling) Yeah. They do more things together also. I mean, they eat at the same table in the restaurant. And here, they have, I think, separate quarters. Uh, when I left, for example, you know, they gave goodbye parties. And the doctors that I worked with are also there. But here I don't think that--I've never seen that happen. You know, that kind of thing. And I've never in Holland ever been afraid to call a doctor. And here, you know, if you have a problem you call on some--you're not always sure how they will react. 26:00Because sometimes they feel it's unnecessary even though you have a problem. And other times you don't call because you think well--and then, there is a certain, I don't know it's not as easy here, the relationship. And I don't know if that's because I don't read them--I see that in the American nurses also, though. You know they're...

JOHNSON: Yeah. So, an attitude between...

FLYNN: It's a little bit uh, difficult, more difficult I would say. Let me check on (indeterminable).

JOHNSON: Okay.

FLYNN: She's--I don't know if she's calling me.

JOHNSON: We'll pause.

(tape cuts out)

JOHNSON: So did you um, get a chance to practice any midwifery? After you had the training in England? Did you--

FLYNN: No.

JOHNSON: Do it here at all?

FLYNN: No. I visited--that's why I wanted to do, of course, when I first came here, primarily. I went to Tennessee, to Ina May Gaskin who has the farm. Several--I went two times to see here. And that was fun. We talked a lot about midwifery here in America. What she has done. And she gave me her book. Well no, 27:00I bought a book, she signed. Uh...and of course she does the...home-based midwifery, you know. No medical, technical approach. And I went to the...Mary Breckenridge Hospital in eastern Kentucky, in Hyden. And the school there that Mary Breckenridge started to train midwives. And uh, they actually have all my papers on file there. Because I wanted to do the trainings and become certified here. And um, it just never happened.

JOHNSON: Now there was a difference, though, between how Ina May Gaskin's is home-based, and that, that's actually--there's also midwifery uh, nurse midwives?

FLYNN: Yes, a nurse midwife, that what I was, of course. And that's uh, to 28:00become a certified nurse midwife I had to go through this six months training. Anywhere I could, you know, there are several hospitals in the United States that offer that. But you know, eastern Kentucky would have been great.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: But it never happened.

JOHNSON: What happened instead?

FLYNN: Well, we, we uh, you know, settled here and I was, I had my own baby then. And Terry didn't really want me to go through all that.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: Just...it would have been okay, I think. Because he didn't have a job yet. He could have babysat and I could have done it. They offered me a job. And they offered to pay the $6000 that it would have cost to do the training if I stayed for two years. So I thought it was a good opportunity, but it never...didn't. Then uh...I of course worked, started working as a nurse. I worked already has a nurse here. In that open heart surgical. Which I did before I became a midwife. And then uh, I changed into the general intensive care here. Which is a little bit more low-key. And uh, more flexible hours. So I'm just, 29:00everything for convenience right now. The work. It's not really my, you know, what I really wanted to do. It's just the convenience. And the hours and uh, and uh, extra income. That's the main reason I'm working right now, I feel. Rather, rather than that I chose that particular area for my interest.

JOHNSON: Do you think that later on you will be able to pursue, after the kids get older?

FLYNN: I don't know. I don't know. If I will. Because it's a certain touch you have in midwifery. And, I don't know...if I will ever...it's also um, knowing the women. And um, even though I did it in England, I felt I had very close bond with the women there. I'm not sure if I'll ever that with American women. Because there is a different attitude to start with toward midwifery. And of course, there's a big group of women who may be, I don't know--maybe it's more mistrust in America in general. Medical profession. And being a foreigner. I 30:00don't know if I ever will have that bond with American women to help them through childbirth.

(00:30:10)

JOHNSON: Hmm.

FLYNN: So, you know even--my experience is that you can help women through childbirth, that it's, you know, a good experience from it. They never--they have pain but they never experience is negative. If you really guide them through that. I'm not sure I'm able to do that American women somehow. You know what I mean?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: I still believe I could that when I first came here. Because I had, you know, I just had that.

JOHNSON: Are the attitudes towards childbirth um, different just in general? Between American and Europe? Places in Europe? Just about childbirth? And how, how to give birth?

FLYNN: Yeah. I think most people are appalled when they here, you know, that you would have a midwifery birth, or a home birth. They think it's out of place, or ancient, or...un-responbile, or...And they--just the fact that you might not 31:00want any pain medicine. That they think that's uh, barbarian. (laughs) Well, it's interesting where in Holland, people don't take pain medicine. And they don't expect it to be offered. They just have a baby, you know. And they just expect to have to some pain. But like, in Holland especially, England's less so--people expect that uh...I--they have different expectations, I guess. They want the home birth and they don't want the medicine.

JOHNSON: Now are there birthing centers or are there different um, atmospheres that women give birth in? In Holland versus--

FLYNN: Yeah, there is still some. For uh--more than 40% will choose a home birth.

JOHNSON: That's a big percent.

FLYNN: Yeah. And it's a cultural thing. It's grown like that. You know, it's 32:00always been like that. And it was of course much higher, but it dropped down--37.5% was the lowest, and then it started rising again. But um...and then there is a certain percentage uh, especially first births and city people that will just go to the hospital (indeterminable). Just have the birth in the hospital and then go back home with the baby. They call it a clinical or an out-patient, I guess they call it here. Out-patient birth.

JOHNSON: So there's no um, they take the baby to another room and keep it in the um, the nursery while the mother stays in her room? It's uh, does the mother and child stay together?

FLYNN: Um...

JOHNSON: After the birth?

FLYNN: Well, that's something different again. I don't know what they do nowadays. But when I was still there, they would separate them.

JOHNSON: Hmm.

FLYNN: The hospital births...

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: They would separate them, for quite a bit. Much more so than in England or in America.

JOHNSON: Oh, okay.

FLYNN: Yeah, it's strange isn't it? Where the home birth is so opposite, but the hospital births were more separate. Even though the births themselves were, again, more uh, low-tech, you know. Very little medicine, no epidurals. You know, just very few...

JOHNSON: I wonder what the rationale was for that?

FLYNN: Yeah, it's different. Well there is a big thing in Holland that is um, that you have to give the mothers rest after birth. You know, the mother is the main focus in Holland. Even at home. At home you also have someone who is with the mother. You know, like a, they call it maternity help. Who stays there for...the first day, almost 24 hours. And then everyday less. Especially to help the mother. The mother really doesn't have to do anything the fist ten days.

JOHNSON: So this is professional help? Not necessarily relatives?

FLYNN: No, that's the professional help. And everyone has that.

JOHNSON: Okay.

FLYNN: And it's especially for the mother. The mother is the queen. The new mother. And the hospital has that also. They, that everyone, the nurses will take care of the baby and do everything. While the mother can rest. It's 34:00uh...that might have to do with it. But um...it's the, the maternity help stays about ten days. Beginning, like I said, the full day she will do everything. And then uh, she'll check the mother and baby everyday. But, and she'll take care of the rest of the household, too. She'll do the cooking, take care of animals that are there. Do the cleaning, everything. And then by the third day or so, the mother will get up. Start uh, doing more herself. Instead (indeterminable) will do less all the time. She'll also teach the father to do things. She'll teach the father how to bathe the baby, how to check certain things.

JOHNSON: So the father is around for all of this?

FLYNN: Yeah, yeah. The father's usually will take off work the first two weeks or so after the birth. And be there to...yeah. Anyway...

JOHNSON: I'm gonna flip the tape over. And then I want to ask a few more 35:00questions. I'm just going to flip it over.

(00:35:01)

FLYNN: If you'll let me, I'll talk for days--

(tape cuts out)

JOHNSON: This is side two. And it's July 4th, 1999. And I'm following up with some questions about midwifery with Marleen Flynn. Um, I was gonna ask how your, your interest in midwifery or your experiences with it uh, changed when you had children of your own?

FLYNN: It never changed.

JOHNSON: Your connection with the mothers wasn't um, intensified? Or...

FLYNN: Um, I don't know because I've never--let me see, I did um...I had my first baby. And then I was offered this training in uh, in Hyden. Which of course we declined. Then uh, my first birth, I had a doctor who was willing to do everything I wanted. Except I would have preferred a home birth. But you 37:00know, that was...I was really uncertain about that because it was illegal officially. And it, you know, I just didn't feel I could do it. If something went wrong, everyone would blame me. But anyway, I don't--no, I didn't change. I went to the hospital, had her, took--it was a very long, slow uh, painful birth. And there was nobody there for me. I was basically alone. And the doctor didn't make me be (indeterminable) all the time, so I could walk around, which helped. But there was nobody actually there to, to help me through this. And I just did it all on my own. What I remembered. And I did fine. You know, I got up and walked, I--and they, they told me, "Oh, you're doing so great." They hadn't seen anybody doing it like that in years. You know, just doing it all by herself. But I missed that little companion that I would have had in Holland or England.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: And I'm still feeling--I looked after (indeterminable) was born, I decided I wanted to work somewhere in obstetrics. That's why I worked nine 38:00months on the labor and delivery floor in Greenview. And uh, and um...tried to be that for these women. But it was just such a different atmosphere. And doctors were so much in charge, you know, with the medication, the epidurals, and the monitoring that I felt you couldn't really get through to the woman. And help her. Occasionally it would be a woman who would expect that more, and allow you to. But most women, you know, they were not even looking for any help through their labor from a nurse in this case.

JOHNSON: Um, going through your, having your first child, did you miss not being close to um, relatives, or your mother, or, or any other family?

FLYNN: Um...yeah. I felt a certain miss there, yeah. Not real big, but there was, I wish I would have had some people.

JOHNSON: Yeah. So um, now you have three children. And...what are some of your ideas about how you were raised and you grew up, and now raising your children in America. What are some of the ideas or issues that you, that you think about? 39:00Are there a lot of differences in the attitudes about raising children here? Or, family issues?

FLYNN: Oh, that's a hard question...Sometimes, I think my very first impression of children here in America was that they got too much attention (laughs) from everybody. In Holland, I think they are more left alone. And it's uh, the grownups kind of do their own thing and the children do their own thing. And I don't know, it might differ per family. It seems like the parents are all the time hovering over these children. "Do your homework. Oh now you have to go do this. Now you have to go do that." On the other hand, the children can do what they want, in a sense. You know, bedtime, if they want, you know--I mean, they 40:00can eat whenever they want to. It seems like in a lot of families. They just open the refrigerator. In Holland a child never would open the refrigerator to get something. I mean, the mother is in charge of the kitchen. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

(00:40:06)

FLYNN: Um...I don't know. They have to be taken everywhere here. Which takes a lot of time from the parents. Which in Holland, not so. The kids, you know, they jump on a bike and they go places themselves. My mother never took me to a swimming pool, to a gymnastic class, nor to a music lesson because I always went myself. She never ever went. While here, I have to go with every single activity with the kids. That gives a different...whatever. Feeling of your day, in a way. Which, it's fine. I'm enjoying it. But it's, you know, it's something. It's a little different.

JOHNSON: What about daycare? Things like that?

FLYNN: Daycare it's uh, that's something that's changing in Holland big time. Yeah. When I left there were barely any daycares. And now they're popping up 41:00everywhere. Women are starting to work more. So it's, it's becoming more uh, to--lots of divorce also, just like here in America. And so, a lot more women start working. And uh, which was not so when I was there. It was mainly the unmarried...girls and women that worked. And the married women would stay home. But that's changing. So there are more daycares coming, too. Yeah.

JOHNSON: Now you've found a way here to do both. So you, you're able to be home with the kids and work?

FLYNN: Yeah. Yeah. I work uh, night shift. (laughs) And then the kids uh, yeah just you know, one night at a time so I don't have to um, necessarily get my rest during the day. I can go back to bed at night. Like this morning, I worked last night 12 hours. And I did sleep this morning three hours. But it was because my husband was home so he could take care--normally I don't do that. I 42:00might sleep an hour or so. After 12 hours. But uh, yeah I just stay with them the whole time. And, I'm not sure if that's good. I think I wanted to be with them a lot because I didn't feel quite in control here in America. So I couldn't really, like having a babysitter. We never had one. Which I think we should have. So Terry and I could have gone out. Evenings, or even a weekend or something. Which, my insecurity here never allowed that. That personal time. But now I know I wouldn't mind, you know. I'm...kind of...but that's, for many years that I wouldn't, we wouldn't do that.

JOHNSON: Now is this the first house you owned...

FLYNN: Yeah.

JOHNSON: As a, as a family?

FLYNN: Yeah.

JOHNSON: So are you feeling more settled here? Now that you own a house?

FLYNN: Not really. That was not really my--to me, it doesn't mean much to own or it rent it. Really. To me it's the place. You know, whether it's home or not. And right now it's still chaos because we're still remodeling. And it's not 43:00really home yet because I don't have things in the right place.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: So even we had only like 650 square foot before we moved in here. (laughs) Very small house with three kids. Everything had it's place. And everything was just right. (laughs) And here, there's so much space, but nothing seems to be quite ready yet. It's a bit, unsettling thing again.

JOHNSON: Now did you um, have you found more of a community now in Bowling Green that you've been here for a while?

FLYNN: Yeah. I think mainly through the kids. You know, your kids meet friends and you meet their parents and that's how you kind of start...becoming more a part of society.

JOHNSON: That's good

FLYNN: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Now, when you were growing up um, were there certain uh, celebrations or holidays or traditions that you celebrated um, as a family that you, you try 44:00to do here? With your kids in America?

FLYNN: Mmm. Not a whole lot. New Year's Eve maybe.

JOHNSON: New Year's Eve? Or...

FLYNN: Yeah, New Year's Eve. In Holland that would be our big thing in our family. Christmas was of course never a big thing where I grew up. We had St. Nicholas June--uh, December 5th in Holland. And I do that a little bit here, but not really much. And then you have New Year's Eve when we have the big fireworks. Now if you want to see fireworks...(laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: There's July the Fourth, but if you want to see fireworks you have to go to Holland on New Year's Eve. Then you can see real fireworks. It's like an hour long. Everyone in the front, on the front porch or...sidewalk. Shooting fireworks.

JOHNSON: Just like the whole neighborhood is shooting off...

FLYNN: The whole town, really everyone.

JOHNSON: And were there um, parties and um, other activities?

FLYNN: Uh, it's mainly--yeah. People would uh, stay up 'till midnight. And just have a good time. Usually play games. And then after midnight you would go, especially young ones, would go in groups and then go from house to house. All night. Saying "Happy New Year." But uh, here Christmas is the big thing of course. Yeah. We've, we make special uh...kind of a bread. Deep fried bread on New Year's Eve. Which I always make.

(00:45:28)

JOHNSON: You make that here?

FLYNN: Yeah I make it every year. And I actually made some last week. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: On my birthday, just because I had fresh yeast.

JOHNSON: Oh, okay.

FLYNN: Yeah, I had, I found some--normally you don't find fresh yeast here in the middle of the summer, but I found some. And I bought it. And I said, "Well I'll make some oliebollen on my birthday, even though it's the middle of the summer." So I did. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Well it was a special occasion. Yeah. Are there other um, foods and 46:00things that you make for the, yourself and the kids that are, to you more...from your home rather than...

FLYNN: I don't think so.

JOHNSON: Than American?

FLYNN: I think food in general is quite the same, really. You know, vegetables, potatoes, meat, rice, macaroni. I mean, we have it.

JOHNSON: It was similar then to what you grew up on?

FLYNN: Yeah, yeah.

JOHNSON: Um, what kind of things um...

FLYNN: We didn't grow up on corn, by the way.

JOHNSON: Oh, you didn't?

FLYNN: No.

JOHNSON: Was that new?

FLYNN: Yeah. Very--corn-on-the-cob I'd never eaten. Which, and they sometimes would sometimes mix corn in other dishes, or soup or something, I guess. I don't have any problems with corn, but apparently some people do. They think it's an animal food...in Europe. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Oh no, they do?

FLYNN: In Europe, they say it's raised as an animal food. Well, and some people probably have a difficult when they come to America to eat that. I've never felt that, I'm guessing because I was never raised on a farm. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs) Well did um...how--have the children been to Holland to visit?

FLYNN: Yeah, they have.

UNKNOWN 1: I did.

JOHNSON: Did you? Was it fun?

UNKNOWN 1: Yes.

JOHNSON: What kind of things did you see?

UNKNOWN 1: I don't know.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: (indeterminable), did you lean any Dutch?

UNKNOWN 1: Yes.

FLYNN: What do you say when you, what do you say when you start eating?

UNKNOWN 1: Eet smakelijk.

FLYNN: Eet smakelijk.

JOHNSON: What does it mean?

FLYNN: Eet smakelijk. It means uh, same as bon appetite. You know, may it taste well. Or something like that.

JOHNSON: Do they um, have they studied some Dutch them.

FLYNN: Oh, very little because--

UNKNOWN 1: Could we with (indeterminable)

FLYNN: Just a minute.

JOHNSON: We're almost done here.

FLYNN: Um...my oldest one did. When I went with her when she was eight months, that's when my father passed away. Then I went with her when she was 21 months, and she went there for two months to a little preschool. Just, you know, to play with other children. And to learn the language. And then when she was four, she 48:00went there for like, three months to kindergarten. So she learned the language pretty good. But with the other two, it was never that extensive.

JOHNSON: Mhmm. Does she remember a lot of it?

FLYNN: She remembers a lot of it, yes. She, she will still understand when you talk to her. She does not respond in Dutch unless, she's (indeterminable) in Holland, then she will start talking it. But, like after two weeks she will start responding in it. But she remembers it all, when you talk to her she will understand. But um, I don't talk enough to them. I don't have the patience, you know. And I, I probably can still do it, in one way or another. Not expecting to have to talk to them in Dutch and all the little nuances that goes with the language. But just, you know, taking subjects. And just talk about that. Or say, "Well today we want to talk Dutch uh, colors." You know, just take a certain area and just teach them that, rather than the language with all the little 49:00nuances. Which is almost too much to expect and...

JOHNSON: Yeah. Are, is that something that's important to you? To have them um...

FLYNN: Well...

JOHNSON: Understand--or know somewhat, some of the language?

FLYNN: It was up 'till now because of my parents didn't speak English. So I, when they went to Holland I wanted them to be able to understand them some. And also maybe respond some to them. But now my father of course passed away awhile back. And my mother...oh, is in poor health. I'm not sure--everyone else speaks English in Holland. So it's not that big of deal for the communication. As it was maybe when both my parents were alive. I find it more important that they would be able to communicate some with them.

JOHNSON: Um, do you have other relatives in the States?

FLYNN: No.

JOHNSON: Do you get to see relatives very often?

FLYNN: Well, only when I go there, really.

JOHNSON: They don't come over to visit?

FLYNN: No. My older sister came twice. When Linda was born she came, and then two years ago she came here for a month. But she is of course uh, she doesn't have a family. She has one grown son. And, but now she has two grandchildren. So for her it was little easier. Most of my other brothers and sisters have families so it's, you know, it's...it's difficult just to pack them up, and expensive, you know, to come and visit...

(00:50:18)

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: For them. It's too expensive for me, too, but I kind of just...you know, that's part of my life, that's what I want to do. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: To visit them. Stay in touch.

JOHNSON: How else do keep in touch?

FLYNN: How much?

JOHNSON: How--what other ways do you keep in touch?

FLYNN: Uh, I will write....uh, which has become less overtime.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: And I will call uh...you know, certain, certain members of the family I keep more in touch. And they will you know, be responding and uh, initiating 51:00contact more than others. You know, it's just...write, telephone, both.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: I would like to have my computer linked to the internet because most of them have internet. And uh, how do you call the service? That's...

JOHNSON: Yeah, the internet. The email?

FLYNN: The email. So um, well that's--the house keeping, I wanted to have a permanent place for the computer before I would access that. But maybe I will speed that up and do it anyway. After this summer. And then uh...because I think it makes a difference when you can respond immediately.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

FLYNN: Rather than...and it's cheaper than the phone, so. I really want to start doing that.

JOHNSON: So were there um, elements of things in American culture that, that you had to get used to when you first started living here permanently? Were there anythings that really stand out in your mind?

FLYNN: Hmm, I don't know. I think um, living in someone else's house initially was a, a big, a big adjustment. Um...I don't know. I don't what to respond. The 52:00heat. The culture in itself. The shops being open all the time. You're never having rest it seems. Like people don't slow down. I think you feel that in a society. The car culture. You know, you have to do everything by car. Everything seems--you go outside and there's not really people, there's only asphalt and cars. And parking lots. And cars. But no people. Where in Holland, you go to a shop you only see people. You know, shopping bags...they stop for a few minutes and chat and, even in the cities, you know. It happens like that. So that's a little different, I think. Here you go, here you have to make up your mind to go to certain places. That's when you will meet the people. After you park your car and leave.

JOHNSON: Are there any um, things that...you...try to, to teach your, or instill in your children that, that are important to you being from Holland? That are different?

FLYNN: I cannot think of really anything specific.

(children talking)

UNKNOWN 1: Yeah, it's a baby cow.

FLYNN: I don't what it is. Looks like a cat, a cat with a hump on its back, don't you think?

UNKNOWN 2: It's look like a camel, or a horse or something.

UNKNOWN 1: (indeterminable)

UNKNOWN 2: Okay...

JOHNSON: Well we can wrap up now, I just wanted to, this is going into an archive so, is there any, are there any stories or anything that you want to add that we haven't talked about yet? Is there anything you can think of that would be important for future generations to hear...about...how you've experienced um, becoming part of the American, part of Bowling Green's community?

FLYNN: Uh, I don't know. (laughs)

JOHNSON: It's a tough question.

FLYNN: Yeah. I don't know. I personally would never recommend uh, leaving your own...country, in a way. But on the other hand...I don't know...I think it's 55:00quite stressful. But it might not be stressful for everybody. And maybe I was just too old. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

FLYNN: To change.

(00:55:04)

JOHNSON: Do you have any um, future dreams or goals about relocating.

FLYNN: No.

JOHNSON: This is home now?

FLYNN: Yeah. Today it's home. We don't have any other plans right now. No. Or desires. I don't know. I don't really--because how long I've been gone now for what, 15 years or so?

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: So uh...it's...if I were to go back I'd have to start over there again, too. And for the children to adjust there. You know, it would be a big thing. So right now I just don't know, I just live today and try to make the best here. And try to uh, just try to be positive. For the kids, especially.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

FLYNN: It's...I don't know. We don't have any other plans at this moment. Or desires because don't know what other options would be and what they would give. You know, it's just not always an easy solution to uh--right now it's fine. You know, I, I can live this way. Raising the kids here. I can see a lot of positive things. Once you know the system and you know the people and where to find the people, you feel more secure. And then you, you know, you can go on and, and know, and you know where to find...what you're looking for. That makes it easier. It takes a while to learn that in a new country, I guess.

JOHNSON: Okay well, thank you very much for speaking with me. And uh...thanks!

FLYNN: Welcome. Want to meet my nephew?

(tape cuts out)

( 00:56:57)