Oral History Interview with Haiwang Yuan

LUANN JOHNSON: Gonna do a little intro. This is LuAnn Johnson, and it's July 3rd, 1999, and I am interviewing Haiwang Yuan...

HAIWANG YUAN: That's correct.

JOHNSON: ...for the Immigrants in Bowling Green Oral History Project, and we're meeting in the Barnes and Noble cafe, so you will hear, uh, overhear the people who go past us and other business activity. Thanks for meeting me this morning.

YUAN: You're welcome. I'm glad I'm here.

JOHNSON: Thank you. I'm glad you're here.

YUAN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Um, I wanted to get started by asking you, um, where you're from originally.

YUAN: Originally I came from the city of Tianxing in China. It's called mainland China as opposed to Taiwan.

JOHNSON: And, um, how did you make it to Bowling Green?

YUAN: Okay. It's a long story. I came to this country 10 years ago, or 11 years ago, in 1988. I'll speak a little louder because of the background noise. And I 1:00was here because of a Fulbright grant. And my major back in China was English, and I was an English teacher for several years. And I got this grant as an opportunity, uh, to advance my education. But, uh, the grant designated that I had to pick a subject other than English. So, uh, the nearest thing I picked was history. So I started my history major in Bowling...in Indiana University, Bowling Green, and got my Masters there, and after that, because of the Tiananmen Incident or whatever, so we got a green card. So we got to stay here, 2:00which we choose to, too, and after that I have to think, "Well, uh, am I going to be a historian or something else to find a job quick," right?

So I...at that time the internet was just a baby, but I liked it. So I started to think of changing a career, so I choose the Library of Information Science, which is actually rated very highly nationally. The School of Library and Information Science in Bloomington...Indiana University in Bloomington is recently the sixth in the nation. So I was lucky to be enrolled in there, and I got my degrees by 1995. And I got my first job in a private school, K to 12, and 3:00I work as a library, uh, hist, uh, I'm sorry. School librarian. In...it's called the Austin's Academy in Winter Haven. If you don't know the city, but you knew the, uh, there's, uh, Busch Gardens...that's the seat of that Garden. And so after two years, I got an additional opportunity to come over to be a professor and to work in the, uh, library. My first job here was Coordinator of the ERC, Educational Resource Center. And the next year I was promoted to become the 4:00Website of Virtual Library Coordinator because of my, uh, computer and internet credentials. And that's why I'm here.

JOHNSON: Okay. Great.

YUAN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Um, so you...before you moved to Bowling Green you had already been in the states for a really long time?

YUAN: Yes.

JOHNSON: What were your first impressions when you moved into, um, what were some of the first impressions that you had of the United States when you first came over?

YUAN: Oh, uh, I see. That's a process of, uh, revelation. At the very beginning, and before I came...before I came someone working at the Chinese staff, uh, working in the American Embassy where I have to get my visas, and he told me, "Once you are there, you'll be surprised." And you can't, you can't, uh, you can't be over-surprised. And there I was because, um, the first impression, because it was, uh, a Fulbright grant that we were taken care of by a program for 22 days, and everything was taken care of. The tour, the boarding, and the food, so we were given a card...we swipe it at a gate, and we eat until our heart's content. Even the, uh, dessert, they have, uh, dozens of ice cream. I 5:00said, "Wow. This is what the Communists say Communism is." You could eat whatever you want, just with a card. And that's my first impression.

And, of course, as time goes by, after the 22 days was over, and we were all sent to different schools we were going to, and we were on our own. And suddenly...we had been pampered, and then suddenly we were on our own. So just 6:00like a little fish in the tank, and then suddenly out here you were put into a vast sea. So I was at a loss of what to do, but I had to pick up my courage and go on with my life. So that's my second impression. You have to be on your own and, uh, self-reliant. Yeah. That's a big trait of this country.

JOHNSON: Now your English skills were...are already pretty good because you were teaching English.

YUAN: Oh, thank you. Yeah. That makes life easier than some others.

JOHNSON: So, yeah. So did have difficulty communicating when you first moved over?

YUAN: Uh, no. Not very much. Actually I impressed quite a few people, and, uh, one of my, I think the first day in my class, in my history class at Indiana University, Bowling Green, one of the students after class came to me and asked, "Where did you come from?" Very casually, I said, "China." He was taken aback. 7:00"I didn't mean that! I mean, uh, where did you come from...which region of the country did you come from?" Wow. He was impressed by my English. So I think that's a compliment.

JOHNSON: So what were some of the first...when you were out on your own, out of the little tank and into the big pond...

YUAN: That's right.

JOHNSON: ...what were some of the things you had to get accustomed to?

YUAN: Uh, yeah. I had to, for instance, I had to find where I to live. And also, the next thing I find out that, uh, without a car you can't even live. A car...back in China I thought a car was a luxury, so Americans were really luxurious. Everybody has a car. Over here, I gradually find out that, uh, for 8:00better or worse you have to have a car to move around and to get your food, like milk...that's in big bottles. And also the Chinese eat rice. You have to get the rice, you know, at least a 10 pound bag or 25 pound bag. It's hard to move them in your backpack on a bicycle, so I think that's very hard at first.

JOHNSON: How was it different than when you--

YUAN: You have to save and try to buy cars, second-hand car.

JOHNSON: How is it different when you were living in China? How did you go about getting milk, and rice, and moving around in China?

YUAN: Oh, I see. But in China I lived in a big city. Everything is within walking-distance, so, uh, there are small shops here and there, not supermarkets. Supermarkets at that time was a stranger to the Chinese before the Chinese economy was, uh, was in this reform mode, before China was open. So you 9:00got little shops here and there, and, uh, you know, my mom just sent me out to get this, get a little this, get a little that all the time.

JOHNSON: And so how was other transportation for you to go to the...

YUAN: Transportation in the city, uh, it's, I think the public transportation was the norm. Uh, when you grow up a bicycle, and so both bicycles and buses. And the buses, you know, it's crammed, crowded, but still it's available. So you either lined up...different cities have different habits. In my city people are in the habit of lining up. That's great. And, uh, so they line up, wait for a...you have, uh, time, you know, time your time, get onto the bus, travel 10:00wherever you want. And the fares are cheap. At that time people don't care whether the bus companies make money or not because state-run, state-funded it.

JOHNSON: So, um, what were some other American cultural things that you had to get used to when you...or that you noticed when you first moved here?

YUAN: Okay. Another thing is that, uh, people here in this country, I think that they are very religious people. And the first thing, I think the first American friend I encountered, I made, was a guy who, uh, actually was working in the 11:00capacity of a...something like a canvas, uh, clergyman? And so he, uh, came to us and, uh, gave us Bible lessons each week. At first they came to our door, so, uh, I think at first I was kind of like, uh, resisting because we had went through something but it's not religion.

In Laos culture, in the culture of Lushi, you have to read the little red books every day. And I got tired of that, and suddenly I said, "Wow. I'm gonna need...I'm getting into another form of that." But later on I find out it's not true. That's not true. So I think, uh, we...our relationship carried on and the...I also attended the, uh, workshops or classes, either one-on-one or in 12:00groups, until I graduated.

JOHNSON: So when you were growing up in China, it was after the Cultural Revolution, so there was...

YUAN: It was...

JOHNSON: ...no organized religion?

YUAN: Uh, actually I hope...this is a very good question. Very interesting one, too. In one of the, in one of my history classes called "The American Culture," um, American Studies class. It was given by a German, uh, a visiting professor. It was about the Depression period of this country. And in class, I surprised the class by saying I went through that. They look at me and say, "How old are you?" I said, "Well how..." I went through all of that in China because I was born in 1955, and China had the worst famine five years later. I started to 13:00remember things. I remember that, uh, how my dad...parents, uh, managed to feed us four children. So, uh, we went through very, very, very hard times.

And then when things started a little better, to be a little better, and then there came the Cultural Revolution in 1996 when I was 12 years old. I was in the fourth grade in elementary school. I had been enjoying my summer, and it was cut short. And all schools were banned, and it was stopped. And, uh, until very...until few years later when we went into middle school again, but we studied nothing but Mao's, you know, quotations, his words. The way, you know, treated kind of like a religion, like a cult. And I also started to learn my 14:00English, and my first English was, like, something like, "Long live Chairman Mao." Just political slogans in fashion at that time. That's how I started my English. But I got fascinated to it. I've liked English ever since. And I kind of lost the train of thought, right? The question was...

JOHNSON: Well, so they ceased schools for a while. Did they also stop religious organizations?

YUAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We're talking about religion. Actually, religion in China is a very, uh, difficult question to answer. Uh, the country never, ever has a 15:00strong church like the Christian church. Like the, uh, Muslim church. And Chinese...we have...their beliefs, their beliefs are not quite organized, but it's kind of like a tradition. And some people, some scholars argue that, uh, they might believe in name. Because my father often tells us, "Don't do bad things because after you die your name is still left behind." So, uh, it's like the wild geese. When they flew by you still hear their sound, so you have to take care of what you left behind...your legacy. It's kind of like that.

And also some argue that it could be the, uh, worship of the ancestor. The 16:00ancestor, that's a very interesting thing. If you worship the well, certain well, either physically by attending their graves, you know, also give sacrifices in the form of food when holidays came, uh, and worship them to the shrine, and also spiritually. You try to...you don't bring bad reputation to the family. To smear their names. If you do these things, if you do bad things, you 17:00don't worship them, their spirits will turn into ghosts that will haunt you, so...that's one thing. The other is the Confucianism, the Confucian tradition has never become a strong church or religion. People just, you know, it's just a tradition. Tradition of, uh, tradition of respecting learning. Tradition of respecting teachers. They say teachers, no matter how old they are, they are your parents. Teachers are parents of the students. Also everything, every treasure is in the book. If you read, if you study you will become rich. You will get whatever you want.

JOHNSON: It's in the book?

YUAN: Yeah. Everything, every treasure is in the book. The actual word of this proverb is, "The book has the golden house."

JOHNSON: Now is the book something literal or is, um, learning in general?

YUAN: I mean, learning. Learning. Actually because I got a badge the other day at the ALA that says, "The library has all the treasures you want." I said, "Wow. What a coincidence!"

JOHNSON: Coincidence!

YUAN: That's right. I think that's the idea. The library has all the treasures in the world. And the book has the golden house. Has your, you know, future. Your...uh, but there is the anti-Confucian movement, too. You know, like, the Mao led the anti-Confucian movement during the Cultural Revolution and also all along under the Communist movement in the country.

JOHNSON: What were some of the major beliefs that he was wanting the people to believe?

YUAN: Yeah, he wants to shatter all of the Confucian ideas. Um, so at the same 19:00time everything was treated as bad. And teachers started to be disgraced. So during the Cultural Revolution, the one biggest thing is all intellectuals were disgraced. They were even driven to suicide or literally got killed in the persecution in the parade, public parade, and also the physical torture and mental torture. And that went on for well over 10 years. It just killed off a whole generation of intellectuals in China.

JOHNSON: Do you have direct memories of incidents like that?

YUAN: Yes. Oh, yes. I saw people, uh, were being...abounded and their heads were 20:00pressed low on the stage. And the people shout slogans, and they kick them. And also there's one incident I remember to this day is that, uh, a very handsome guy in my neighborhood, he had just got a very beautiful...at that time in my very young eyes I think that girl is so beautiful, and that guy was so lucky. And that guy was so young, so handsome, too. And they seemed to be a very nice, it would be a very nice couple.

And just before they got, uh, they were get married, one day the boy...the guy, the young guy, came upon some Red Guards, some young soldiers encouraged by Mao to, you know, revolt, to beat up people. Even though he didn't say that, he said, "Revolt is reasonable," or something like that. They're beating someone who they think is a capitalist. He used to have his own property or factory 21:00before the Communists took over. And, uh, they were beating a mob and he said, and the young guy came by and said, "Stop! Because Mao said we should fight with our words, not with our fists." And for sure he had that kind of quotation, and then they turned on him. And the next thing I knew is that he vanished. He was missing. And I still remember...he's the only son, only child in his family. I still remember the anguish on the face of the...the teary parents and also the fiance.

JOHNSON: Wow.

YUAN: And so close to me.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

YUAN: So the only comparison I can make to...about the Cultural Revolution, if I want the people in the West to understand that, I think there are only two analogies I can make. One is the cruelty of the Nazi. The other is the frenzy of 22:00the Iran Revolution. If you put those two things together from 1966 to the death of Mao in 1976.

JOHNSON: And how old were you when that was taking place?

YUAN: Well, in '66 I was 12, and then I was 22. Just my best years. JOHNSON: So you had still decided that you wanted to go on and be a scholar?

YUAN: Yeah. I was lucky. I was lucky because I was too young to join. I could be a bad guy, you know. I was too young....I was too young to join, to participate in all the activities...

JOHNSON: Would you have wanted to?

YUAN: ...for better or worse.

JOHNSON: Did you...do you remember your feelings...

YUAN: I was only 12...because my parents didn't want me to. Yeah. They just, 23:00"Stay! Stay! Stay at home! Don't do that. Don't join any affiliations." Uh, but I was older enough to remember all the things, so when I...in 1975, a year before Mao died, I think Deng Xiaoping was designated to...nobody knows what is going on in the leadership. But Deng Xiaoping, who turned out to be the reformist, let the country out of that. He started to take over a little bit, and he started to redo the things, you know, to reopen the factory, the 24:00railroad, and schools and stuff. And suddenly the next year he was overthrown again.

So I think...I think Lincoln said that, right? "You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time," right? Before 1975, I was among the other Chinese, all of the people who was fooled some of the time. At that time we really believed that Mao was the god, and suddenly when Deng Xiaoping showed us the alternative, the good stuff, and that was like, "Wow." That's where we should go. And suddenly when that was crushed, and people got despaired, and people suddenly see through.

So that...I was, you know, we were all despaired. So I think at that time we had another Tiananmen Incident. We had a big show of people alongside the road to show, to mourn the siege, the Premier Zhou Enlaid at that time. Actually, why people love him more than Mao...he was better, but actually, I think, it's kind of a silent show of dissent towards Mao because they didn't dare to do anything, or you can be killed. And there was a girl who just said something to criticize Mao, and he was executed. Before he was executed...to prevent him, her from shouting or saying things again, he cut her throat against a brick.

JOHNSON: Who was this who did it?

YUAN: The police at that time.

JOHNSON: The police? YUAN: Yeah. Under Mao. And, uh, and later, of course, this 26:00incident was used to de-Mao. So, I think, uh...just to show that such a cruelty at that time. And it was the norm of the day. And no people can complain about it, or otherwise you will have the same fate. And all that was changed after the...after the...after October 1976.

JOHNSON: So growing up was such, um, incidents around you.

YUAN: I know.

JOHNSON: Did you become desensitized to it?

YUAN: I think, uh, I became more sophisticated. If you went through a lot like this, yeah. That's true. You will see things in a more critical eye. You won't believe everything, that's say...even though we're here I still have...being in the habit of not trusting any media. So I will read more versions of all kinds 27:00to get the...read between lines.

JOHNSON: So when you were younger and they, uh, they closed the schools, what...how did that change your daily activity? What type of...what did you do instead?

YUAN: Oh, yeah. That's good. Uh, I think, um, do nothing. A lot of people, a lot of young people went astray. I think they became hooligans later. But I was lucky because my parents were very strict with me and kept me at home. And I got a bunch of good friends in the neighborhood and also, you know, school. So we 28:00just play...play around, fool around without doing any harm to society, I guess. So I think we were lucky. We were really lucky.

JOHNSON: Did you continue studying at home?

YUAN: Uh, at that time I was too young. And later, you know, the school was just literally closed for a couple of years before it reopened again. But all the class...all the regular classes were not installed until a few years later. So at that time we, after two years we went back to middle school, as I said, to learn the quotations. That stuff. So I tried to absorb everything I can lay my hands on. So I graduated, um, the middle school with flying colors. Three, uh, my math is 100. My Chinese is 98, I guess. I still remember. It's equivalent to 29:00English class over here. And my English, the second language, was 100 because it was not very much. It was not very much. It just, uh, restore a little bit, see? I just try to learn everything I can.

So, to me, that's...and then, in 1972, the late Premier he tried to, tried to, you know, tried to bring the country from turmoil back a little bit, opened up a little bit. I think, uh, in 1972 the radio broadcast of English classes began. And a lot of people in colleges that didn't have much to do, professors, came to school where I was going. I was sent to a teacher's school. It's not a college, 30:00it's a school, immediately after middle school. Or another choice, I have to go to the countryside. A lot of young people were sent to the country to be farmers.

So I have two choices. Either go to a school to be a scholar, later to be disgraced, or to go to the country to do hard labor. I said, "Well, that's the less of the devil." Evil. So I chose the second, to go to the teacher's school to be trained to be...someone to be disgraced in the future. And, uh, over there I studied everything the first year, and then the next year, in 1972, and the college...the professors came to the school and said, "Can we teach...can we set up a training class to train them English?" Said, "Yeah. Okay. Fine." Well, they had nothing to do in the college, no college students yet. So we got into a very, very intensive training. Uh, one figure I can give to you to illustrate 31:00the, uh, intensivity is that we...for a while, half a year, each day we got to remember 50 vocabularies. But I was only 18 at that time. It's nothing.

JOHNSON: So it was easy? You found it easy?

YUAN: Uh huh. So that's how I got a very, very, I think a very good training at the very beginning. Just like a violin or a piano, if you've got a good teacher, got good training, you got a very good start.

JOHNSON: And how was your, um, did you get a lot of support from your family during that process?

YUAN: Oh, yeah. Uh, speaking of my family...my family...actually at that time my father was a textile worker, and my mother was a homemaker because of me. She got her job with, a state-run job, security. You know, job security, until I 32:00was, um, in my...until I was 3. She send me to the, uh, kindergarten where I didn't like to stay. I cried and cried until I got my inner ear infected, so my mother quit her job. And later we suffered from that. Only one salary from my dad, four children. And, uh, we had a very tough life in those days. And I had to...

JOHNSON: Are you the youngest?

YUAN: Yeah. I'm the oldest. And, uh, the youngest, the fourth child, my sister, is only six years younger than I am. And we had a really hard time. My mother managed very well, and I think we had...we just had the sustenance, no luxuries 33:00at all. Even not a movie. And not a radio at home.

JOHNSON: So what was the house like that you grew up in?

YUAN: Oh, uh, back in China, actually, in the city it's so different from here. Maybe it's a little bit like in Europe. The houses, it's like...it's just connecting one to another. Back in the back. And then you have the lanes. And then you have the courtyard. You went into the courtyard, you have on both sides the houses, but all the houses are connecting to each other. There's no spaces between them. And we had one and a half roof.

JOHNSON: One and a half rooms?

YUAN: Uh, yeah. That's right.

JOHNSON: Was there...it was a kitchen and then a living area?

YUAN: No. No, no kitchen. The kitchen is in the courtyard. It's just a stove.

JOHNSON: So it's a community kitchen?

YUAN: Uh huh. Yeah. It's a community. Uh, it can hardly match...maybe you can 34:00only see it on a movie. Like it's so hard.

JOHNSON: Yeah. What kind of, um, you had mentioned, like, how did you become aware of the different beliefs in Chinese culture if you were not taught it in school? Did you...

YUAN: I think, uh, as I said, before the disillusion came on in 1975, in 1976, 1975, that was the turning point in my life. Before it was innocent. The innocence...the innocence was dead in 1975. Uh, after that, I was more and more interested in politics but not involved in any. And I started to, uh, to learn English. And my one conviction, one strong belief is that, "If I learn, my 35:00knowledge will be useful." And that's the only way that society can go, and myself, as an individual, should go. So I just indulged myself, uh, deep in myself, in my knowledge of English at that time. And, uh, there was a strong, there was a strong opposition to that from some other people, people my same age. They are still, you know, still fooled. You can fool some of the people...

(35:43)

JOHNSON: Okay. I guess what I'm trying to ask was not so much that you studied Confucian beliefs directly...

YUAN: That's right. That's right.

JOHNSON: ...but there was that view that you had in society.

YUAN: Yeah. Uh huh. I understand. I understand your question. It's a very tough 36:00question to answer because, uh, it's not...it does not spring from any of the beliefs. It's kind of, like, very subtle. Very subtle. And my mom, my dad, were none of the believers. Not a believer of Buddhism, or Confucianism, or...but I think that they were still in the tradition of Confucianism. But it's a very permeable...very permissive, very subtle, you know. They were not...because the 37:00way they were taught, you know, they canons they memorized, you know, all these are, I think, grew from that soil. But you cannot just pinpoint just like in the Bible, uh, on which page, uh, God says this, says this, says this. No. And also, in especially the Cultural Revolution was the climax of the Communist ideology. It's trying to, I think, trying to, uh, get rid of anything that's not Marxism from the mind's of the people. Of course, at one lecture in Indiana University I heard from, um, a former USS...Soviet Union scholar. He said teaching Marxism to the students actually is to teach the students to know nothing. That's true, you know, if you just believe in one belief you think, you know, in that mode anything other than that is bad. Like, Confucianism, you know. And suddenly, suddenly when you...suddenly when you see everything crumble in 1976, everything Mao said was wrong. And it just pulled, got the country into a big, big, big, 38:00big, disaster because of that.

So I think a lot of people hit a void, and suddenly nothing there. It's black. So that's why you see a lot of citizens came from that, and they try to de-Mao or, you know, and then say, "No, no, no, no. Don't do that yet. Don't do that yet." So they just send them to jail, and let's do the economy first. Well, whatever. But still, because I was in that school, I think I'm more influenced by my parents, my father's moral influence from Confucian kind of ideology. 39:00Like, uh, "The book has everything you need." In the future just study, study, study, study. So that's how I got here.

JOHNSON: Okay. Is that, um, I wanna, um, this is kind of a two part question. So...

YUAN: Uh huh. Sure. Go ahead.

JOHNSON: ...what did your parents want for you? What were their dreams for their children to have a good life?

YUAN: Okay.

JOHNSON: And then, furthermore, then what are your dreams for your children?

YUAN: Okay. That's good question. Actually, my dad was a textile worker who used to be a farmer, and I think he came to Tianxing to be an apprentice and then be a textile worker. But his mindset was still in the Chinese farmer's mindset, the Confucian, you know, and everything. Uh, he did not have a large vision, you 40:00know. Just try to be a doctor, a professor in the future, no. He didn't say that. But he asked us to be honest, to listen to the teachers, and to study well, and to be whatever you can be in the future but not to be bad guys.

JOHNSON: So, um, do you have relatives in the states, though?

YUAN: Uh, no. So far, no. We have...my wife's big brother is now living in both places, Paris and Canada. But mostly in Canada, so we can just...we just went, 41:00as I said among trails, so we went to see him and also have a conference. It was a very, very good coincidence, the business and the family they got together. So we had a reunion over there, just, you know...

JOHNSON: How did you meet your wife? Where and when did you meet your wife? YUAN: Okay. As I told you that, uh, I was sent to the school. It's called something like a technical school, actually, but it's called a teacher's school. It's that level between college and the high school. And where I studied English, the next year, and the next year, the third year, my wife came into the class because her dad was a professor of the Nankai University, the teacher's university, back in China. Um, she was sent to the country to be a farmer because, uh, because at that time that policy was loosened up a bit. People 42:00started to trickle back to the cities so long as you have the influence or you have the criteria, you fit the criteria, like, your parents are too old, no one taking in...to take care of them, and she fell into that category. Her father, as an intellectual, didn't have influence. But she fit that category, so she came back.

And so what to do? She said she wanted to...her father wanted her to carry on the tradition of, you know, English. She, he was an English professor, so he...and his students' friends were teaching us, so he just sent them to my class. And the first day she came I said, "Wow." She was different. I just liked 43:00her. And, uh, at that time I was one of the best in the class and also one of the, uh, class leaders. So I was put in charge of taking care of her...her study, academic life because she lagged behind a little bit. So I think, uh, by and by, we just knew each other better, and her fa...her dad knew me better. So her dad persuaded her, too. So both of them.

JOHNSON: So what was your courtship like?

YUAN: Oh, the courtship at that time was just, uh, tough. Uh, that comes back to the legacy of the Cultural Revolution and before the Chin...before China became so open. At that time it's still very, very traditional, very conservative, and even...and privacy was not, um, was not known. So, uh, at that time my 44:00wife...because my wife was five years younger, older than I am. We're still in the Cultural Revolution. That's in 1973. So, uh, intellectuals still suspected. So, uh, I was, they think I was a very good candidate to be a leader in a school or somewhere to be a good guy. Can't be mingled up with, you know, with the daughter of a professor who was five years older. Maybe she has some bad intentions, you know? Tries to influence me. So intervene, intervention, from the school, from my classmates, a lot of intervention and following eyes even 45:00knew where we at, what we did. That's a long story.

JOHNSON: So your classmates would be, um, they were the ones who were still following Mao?

YUAN: Oh, yeah. That's right.

JOHNSON: Which is why they were intervening?

YUAN: They helped the leadership of the school.

JOHNSON: Now how would that compare to, uh, what would just be traditional courtship, like, between your parents before all this happened? YUAN: If, uh, she was not, uh, five years older. If she were not from, uh, a professor's family. There's still the question of age. I was 19 years old, and that was regarded to be too young to start a courtship. And that's a violation. Uh, but 46:00if I was in the...in my mid-20s, I think things would be much, much easier. At that time, even during the Cultural Revolution, the too traditional stuff, like, like the marriage was still...I think people have still, that's still changed. Even during the Cultural Revolution the free, I mean, the free courtship was still, uh, but it has to be based on politically correct. You see what I mean?

If I'm from a worker's family, you're from a, let's say, a former capitalist family, that would be trouble. That would be trouble. And, uh, I mean that I will suffer from your status. Maybe our children may not be able to go to, you know, to have all the privileges other children may have. And if I'm in the army, or in the police force, or in the state...in some key units even the 47:00leadership would say, "No! Otherwise you have to quit your job!"

JOHNSON: Ah. So marriage would mean giving up your career, if you worked for the state.

YUAN: Yeah, that's right. If they think the marriage is not correct, politically correct.

JOHNSON: Okay. So how did you end up getting married?

YUAN: I think the more force outside, the more unity you have. So we just hang on, hang on, hang on. And then, in 1978, and the big the occurred. Deng Xiaoping decided that, uh, well, the colleges...um, before that, you know, before that 48:00they open for several years but only the sons and daughters of peasants, farmers, workers, and soldiers had good statuses against the others. Can go to school. They were picked, handpicked, and send to the school to study, paid for. And now they said, "We'll start stopping that. We'll start the reverse to what used to be before the Cultural Revolution and what is being practiced in the whole world."

The enrollment...you have to go to, uh, go to exam, and then you get enrolled. So I got, since I studied in that school, I had the, uh, pre-knowledge of English, so I took the first exam. We were the first. That was in the year of 1977. So we were the year...if you mention that. The year 1977, college 49:00students, you will know, it's a bunch of students of all ages. It's kind of like...something under the cover suddenly let out. So people, you know, in all those years used to be, uh, seniors, sophomores, juniors, duh duh duh, all came back to take the test and study. And so you can see people in their 30s, or even 40s, also you can see people in their teens, in the same class. That's very, very interesting. But everybody treasured the moment so much, and there was no playtime. It was really, really study.

JOHNSON: So you were serious, if you went back. YUAN: Very, very serious. 50:00Because if something was taken from you and returned to you later, you will treasure it more. Just like the people who had a near-death and suddenly got back life, and they say, "Wow. Life is so precious. So precious."

JOHNSON: So after that you, uh, the pressure was let off and the two of you were allowed to...

YUAN: Uh huh. Yeah. We went to college, and she failed the first exam, and then she succeeded in the second one. So we end up in two different schools, but it's this close. But her family, her father's family is still on campus of my university. So, uh, we still meet a lot. And later we just got married.

JOHNSON: What was the marriage ceremony like? Was it in China?

YUAN: Oh, it's...yeah. At that time it was a very rushed ceremony because we met...because our courtship went eight years. And we didn't, we didn't have the pregnancy or stuff. But, uh, rumors went around that we got too close because her father can afford the rooms, the house. So since her father was my department, you know, procedures professor, they couldn't say anything. "Oh, god." Immediately after graduation. Oh, they organized collective marriage 51:00ceremony, two couples got together. At that time, my furniture was not ready yet, so it's kind of, uh, interesting.

JOHNSON: So what was it like? Did you...

YUAN: It was a very non-traditional, uh, ceremony. Yeah. I dressed up in the Mao suit. I still have the Mao suit with me. And my mother bought me, at that time, no Western suit yet. Yeah.

JOHNSON: So she...so you moved over to the states together when you got the Fulbright scholarship?

YUAN: Yes. That's in 1988.

JOHNSON: And did you already have children?

YUAN: Uh, yeah. At that time...so we got married in 1982. In 1983 my son was born, so today he is almost 16. So when I came in 1988, he was five and a half. 52:00So he came nine months later with his mom.

JOHNSON: So you not only had, um, yourself to get orientated to America. You had a whole family to take care of.

YUAN: Uh huh. Yep. That's right. That's right.

JOHNSON: So, um, now that you're in Bowling Green, what were some of the, uh, first impressions of Bowling Green compared to where you were before in the states?

YUAN: Okay. Uh, since I stayed almost all the time before my first job, that's 1995, in Bloomington, Indiana, almost...Bloomington, almost to our small family, my wife, my son, and me, our second home. We had a lot of attachment to it. And so we compare everything with it. So when we came to Bowling Green, we didn't 53:00see too much of a difference, so we liked it immediately. Yeah. Like our second home. So we think the size is also, uh, a university city, uh, town or city. But it's smaller than Bloomington. The university's smaller, so it doesn't quite like, much like a university town like Bloomington, but still. You still feel close. You still feel close.

JOHNSON: Is there, um, is there any other Chinese community in the area that you...

YUAN: In this area? Yeah. Uh, we have several communities. Let's say, uh, one circle is...I got a...when I was an Education Resource Center Coordinator in that round building that's called Tate Page Hall, right? Almost on each of the 54:00floor, excuse me, we have one teacher of Chinese nationality. On the first floor we had, uh, a teacher Dr. Tao, in the Teacher Education in reading. On the fourth we have, uh, Teacher Leadership and Dr. Wong. And on the third floor it's just me, but no one on the second floor. But we got to have someone on the second floor. So that's a little, uh, kind of, uh, Dr. Wong would be our mentor, and then Dr. Tao would be my peer. So we're kind of, like, trying to, uh, help each other academically, academically and also in life. Especially Dr. Wong who has been here for 11 years, um, give us a lot of tips, and briefings, and makes our life easier. And that's one circle. And then later we knew someone from the Agricultural Department, Dr. Liu. So we kind of form an academic circle. That's 55:00one circle.

And another circle is, um, we got 30-something Chinese students on campus. When the holidays came, like Chinese National Day or Chinese fest...traditional festivals like Chinese New Year, uh, they would get together and invite us, too. One of the restaurants, City Restaurant, their owners are also of the Chinese nationality, so they would provide, uh, the facility. Also making a little money out of it, of course, some publicity, too. So it's kind of helping each other. So we will have the celebration over there. That's one big circle, too. But that's not an often, not a frequent meeting.

Another circle, I think that involves my wife, too, that Chinese community involving not only people from mainland China, but also Taiwan. So when they get together they're just, you know, everybody look the same, have the same culture, the same language, you know. They just forget about the political differences. So, uh, we...at first we almost meet each...it's kind of like a get together each weekend. And later on, because people moved, because the Fruit of the Loom just shut down, we lost two or three people in there, so they moved out. And so, uh, the gathering just dwindled a little bit because of that.

JOHNSON: So what kind of, um, traditions, celebrations do you still maintain 57:00even within your family now that you're in America?

YUAN: I see. Um, I think the biggest is the Chinese New Year.

JOHNSON: And when does that fall again?

YUAN: Okay. That's a very, very tricky...and, uh, that's very tricky because the Chinese New Year, the traditional festival, all the traditional festivals are going by the, uh, the Chinese lunar month. Lunar calendar. It's 30 days a month, and then 12 months a year. And then they try to pull that gear, on the gear...to fit to the gear to the Gregorian, the Western calendar. You know, it's kind of...so if you look at the Chinese calendar, you have two: the lunar and the Gregorian. Use the Gregorian for the, you know, daily routines, go to work and...

JOHNSON: Business.

YUAN: ...business. And then they celebrate the traditional festivals according 58:00to the lunar month. And the lunar month has to fit into that. They wouldn't have leave months and days and whatever they try to fit, but it's fit. So it's kind of like, uh, it's like...so the Chinese New Year wouldn't fall on the same day. It would be hard. So it's kind of like moving around. In the beginning, let's say, between February the 6th and February the 19th or 18th, somewhere like that.

JOHNSON: Okay.

YUAN: Uh huh. So each year it will be a little bit different, but in that range.

JOHNSON: It's usually always in February?

YUAN: Well, that's when the school just gets busy.

JOHNSON: Oh! Yes!

YUAN: The students came in, you know, and everything. So, but we...so our celebration get-together would be one big thing. And, uh, also, we got a satellite, a satellite receiver sold from all the Chinese bookstores in this 59:00country, in big cities, you can buy from mail, too. Uh, I just received several channels from Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China. Since China is free, we just got a free one. And 24 hours. And even back in China the biggest event during the Chinese New Year Eve is everybody is sitting down at the TV to watch a four to five-hour gala of all the entertainment events on the stage. It's beamed to 1.2 billion people. So you've got an audience of one billion. And then we can see that at the same time. So that would be our...

JOHNSON: So you watch that along? YUAN: ...beginning. And record it and share it with the other people who doesn't have the satellite.

JOHNSON: So you sometimes get together and watch the tape?

YUAN: Uh huh. Yeah. Or they just borrow the tape. They borrow the tape.

JOHNSON: Okay. Now in your celebration do you prepare certain foods or...?

YUAN: Yeah. Uh, but not the tightly restricted, uh, we just...if we like to do it, we do it. If we don't, we just go to restaurant, even eat American food to celebrate. It's kind of like that. It's not as rigid as we were back in China.

JOHNSON: Are there certain foods or certain things...?

YUAN: Yeah. Yes. Dumplings. Dumplings would be the big thing. And also feast.

JOHNSON: ...that you would miss if you didn't have it? Something good it means to you.

YUAN: Oh, yeah. We missed...we actually missed the atmosphere. We miss the, uh, the friendship. We miss the family, you know, the kind of...get close to our family. Your parents, and brothers, and sisters, uh, get together to celebrate, 61:00just like at Christmas. If you are not in there, it's kind of the same feeling. That same feeling.

JOHNSON: Have your parents come over to visit yet?

YUAN: Um, no. Not yet. And at first we couldn't afford them, and then later my father suffered a little stroke, and so ever since...it's not quite convenient for him to move around. And he can still move around, taking care of himself in-house, and so my mother has to take care of him. And so that's the...

JOHNSON: Have you been over?

YUAN: ...that's been put off.

JOHNSON: Have you been able to go back and visit?

YUAN: Uh huh. Yeah. Uh, twice. In 1994 and in the beginning of 1996.

JOHNSON: So your whole family went over?

YUAN: Uh, the first time the whole family. The first time. Three of us. And each time we saw a huge difference. It's...I don't know the other people, but in my 62:00family, I saw the changes by leaps and bounds. I can, maybe I can talk a little bit-- JOHNSON: Yeah.

YUAN: The first time, remember we live in that one little house in the alley, and then everybody is connecting each other. The second time we went back, it's demolished. And that piece of property, that whole quarter of the city, was sold to a conglomeration from Hong Kong. And they...and now, uh, on the phone my sister told me, my sister is working there. And now it becomes a magnificent, big, big, huge mall.

And my family was given a new...in the city it's called a flat or apartment buildings. In the buildings. And, uh, it's like in Chicago the buildings...they 63:00now have, uh, two bedrooms, one big family room. They have a kitchen now. They have a bathroom now. And before they have to go out to the public bathroom, you know, you have to line up sometimes. Especially for women, right? You had to line up. That's hard. For my parents, that's for so many years, and now they have everything else. And, uh, I also found some little pug. My parents have a little pug.

JOHNSON: A little what?

YUAN: Pug. A dog.

JOHNSON: A dog? So they have a pet now.

YUAN: And now they have, uh, cable TV.

JOHNSON: Cool.

YUAN: They showed me the cable. It's cable. I thought, "Wow." And they have, uh, my brother has motorcycle. They have the beepers. Oh, just in two years. Just in 64:00two years.

JOHNSON: Oh, so they're keep...they're right along with us. They've got all those things. Amenities.

YUAN: Yeah. And they have phones so we can call.

JOHNSON: Tell me, um, before we started recording you were beginning to speak a little bit about how you were able to stay in touch when you first moved here and how that's changed.

YUAN: Yeah. That's right. That's changed a lot. That changed a lot. Uh, before we have to write each other, and each letter...for a letter to travel to China one way is seven days, if it's lucky. Longer if it's not. So back and forth. You have to wait a month to see the answer.

JOHNSON: Yeah. YUAN: And for something emergent...emergency, you can't do it, right? But now you can just pick up the phone and call. Especially with the internet now, I...the other day I just got, it's called an internet card. It's 65:00nothing, but something, you print it out. And the number, you dial the number, you call, and then it's only 20, 38 cents, or 28 cents a minute. So I can talk way longer.

JOHNSON: Alright.

YUAN: Well, yeah, I know. So it's just...

JOHNSON: So you're in better touch then?

YUAN: Oh, yeah. Much, much better. Much better.

JOHNSON: And do they have computers?

YUAN: Uh, my...not my parents. One of my sisters, yeah. And also one of my sisters is talking about, put a lot of pressure on me now, talking about sending her daughter, who is just one year older than my son, I think it's 16 and a half, to come to study. And they paid for everything. That's how much money they 66:00got. So, wow. I said, "Don't squander your money. Get your college education back in China, and try to get your graduate degrees over here." Because graduate degrees, my experience tells me it's much better...

JOHNSON: Yeah.

YUAN: ...than in China. But the college level is just, you know, just party. So you don't want her to party over here with your money. So just get a college education there. I try to...I try to persuade them. But I don't think I have persuaded them yet. I still have a long way to go.

JOHNSON: Yeah?

YUAN: So it's a fashion. The one that got money. They send kids out. And yesterday from the satellite news, I just found out...it's a new thing right now. I think it's on CNN now. And China has, uh, allowed individuals to tour 67:00with their own money Australia and New Zealand. They opened that up.

JOHNSON: So the tourists...

YUAN: They already opened up Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong, but now they added two more countries. And then, I think, maybe in five years, USA, Japan, maybe not even five years. I don't know. Two years.

JOHNSON: So what...do you have any future dreams, or plans, or...? YUAN: Um, right now, I think I'm at the apex of my career. And I think, uh, right now I'm an assistant professor and website with the library, and serving on the council of the library department heads. And, uh, nationally I got into a chairmanship 68:00of a committee, academic committee, so I think, uh, but still. I want to be...in the near future, in four years, that's my dream. My goal is to get tenured, so also...along the way I have to publish, and teach, and to do all those public services, and to do my job, and to get tenure. And, uh, another dream is to, uh, save enough to bring my family back again to visit them, to see the changes. That's in the near future. In the long run, I think, uh, I want to be a professor, a full professor in WKU, and to, uh, give more service, more of my 69:00service to the library. And that's it.

JOHNSON: So Bowling Green's your home?

YUAN: I think so. Yeah. I got a house.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

YUAN: I like it.

JOHNSON: Is there anything, any stories or any words of wisdom that you'd like to add to this tape, uh, for future generations to hear?

YUAN: Okay. One, I think, is a word of wisdom. If you believe in something, just stick to it. I think you have to believe in something good, of course. Believe in God, in our terminology. If you believe in something, you stick to it, you work hard, and then you will get there. No matter what the big environment is. 70:00Like, in my younger years, the turmoil is so, you know, it's just like a nightmare. I still pull through. And also, it's like, uh, stay close to the family. And the family is the big support in your younger life. Because you have nowhere to turn but your family, the parents. I think I got a very good parenthood, so that I didn't go astray. Thank you.

JOHNSON: Okay. Thank you very much.

YUAN: Thank you.