Oral History Interview with Harika Oz

BARBARA DRUMMOND: Okay, this is Shelley Drummond. And I am here with Harika Oz, and she is from Ankara, Turkey? And it is June 4th, and we're in Bowling Green, Kentucky right now. And we have talked about the release form.

HARIKA OZ: (laughs) Yes.

DRUMMOND: (laughs) But, tell me a little bit about Ankara.

OZ: Well, Ankara is the capital city of Turkey. And um, very, very old city actually. And lots of historical things. And um, population I think around 5 million, 5 million today. Or maybe 6, I don't know. So I lived there for 16 years.

DRUMMOND: How does it compare to Bowling Green?

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Oh gosh. (laughs) There is no way to compare. I mean, a city size like Bowling Green we call village.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: So to me Bowling Green is not a city. It's a village for me. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Did you live in a home or in an apartment?

OZ: Apartment. Especially in that area (indeterminable) it's hard to live in a home now. It's almost impossible. Too many people. Small land. So...apartments are like 10, 20, 50 floors. Something like that. But I lived 5 floor apartment.

DRUMMOND: Was it with your family or...

OZ: Yes. Actually I lived with my family until (laughs) 1989. I was 29 years old, and then I got married. And then I had, our own apartment. So I lived there. And then I came to United States in 1992.

DRUMMOND: What was the marriage?

OZ: Well it wasn't, it wasn't arranged marriage. It was, I mean it was a regular marriage.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: We dated um, maybe like a year. I was working in the military, I'm a cartographer. Map maker. (laughs) And um, in Turkey, guys have to go to military. They have to serve otherwise they will drop their citizenship. So, I was working in military as a civilian, and then um, my ex-husband was a medical doctor. And he came to serve (indeterminable). So, and then um, we met there and we start dating for awhile, and then decided to get married. And then um, we got married. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Do you have brothers and sisters?

OZ: Oh yeah. Yeah. We have, we are six siblings. I have 3 sisters, 2 brothers.

DRUMMOND: Did you have your own room when you were growing up, or?

OZ: Nope. No. That is not a common thing in Turkey. Especially if you have six kids. (laughs) You have to have a really big house. There's no way.

DRUMMOND: So how did you divide a space up that was your space? Or did you?

OZ: Well actually um, that was not my own space. I learned--I mean you have to learn to share.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: You, you cannot live your own space. You know that you're going to be living with these people, then you have to know how to share. Even like...some part I was still living with my sister...

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And um--and then I had my own room. Sometimes I'd just kick everybody and then, 'Okay, this is my room.' Just, maybe because of this feeling I wanted to have my own space. But um, I mean, more than having space, I think we feel those 4:00feeling having own other stuff.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: I don't know, maybe like special notebooks or...with small things. And you know that those are yours. Your own things.

DRUMMOND: When you moved um, to the United States and you had more space, did you get lonely, or...

OZ: Well um, not really because when I came to United States I didn't know any English. No English. And when I was in the plane, they skipped me. I don't know what was the reason. And um, I was hungry and I couldn't, I didn't know how to ask. How to ask, you know, to tell them that I'm hungry. And um, someone asked 5:00me to bring some dessert, Turkish dessert called baklava. Maybe you know from the Arabic people who live here. And um, I start making fun. I said well, "If they skip me this time I'm going to eat that thing. And I don't care about the gift at all." So I think it was the last plane um, finally somebody asked me. And then--well today I know what she asked me. She said she chicken or fish or something like that. I just made a guess, I said "chicken." The only thing that I knew was Coke. (laughs) And I said "Coke." (laughs) So finally I had something to eat. Maybe for that reason I didn't have time to feel myself alone. Because after I came here, example I focused to learn English. And I didn't have time to think about if I'm alone or not. (laughs)

(00:05:43)

DRUMMOND: Why did you come?

OZ: Well, I followed my husband. Ex-husband. He um, he came nine months before then me, and I lived with my family there for nine months. Um, he got accepted in the University when we moved here. In Public Health. His major was Public 6:00Health. And then um, well because we were married so I came. I followed him basically. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Was he Turkish?

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: But he spoke English?

OZ: Yeah. He doesn't have problem. I mean he was listening, like, American radios. American (indeterminable), I think. Even he was uh, going to bathroom with that little radio. (laughs) I was like, I cannot (indeterminable). I have to train my ears, something like that. So...Yeah I spent two years to learn English just to feel comfortable.

DRUMMOND: And you got on the plane by yourself, by yourself?

OZ: Yeah. It was scary. (laughs) I didn't know where I am going. Before I took the plane, I was in a bus station, which is very common in Turkey. It's cheap. And um, all my friends and my brothers and my mom, everybody was there, and 7:00everybody was crying. And I...didn't want to, them to get upset. Because that I was scared. So I, you know, tried to seem calmed down and, and then I took the bus. And then I was alone. And then I start crying. And I didn't know where was I going. Because I mean--in Turkey...well, I know something about, you know, history of United States. But um, like, my mom was so upset, she thought that they are going to kill me on the street in United States. I mean, because of those stupid movies. Everybody believes that, you know, life is exactly like that in United States. I didn't, I mean, you know, all kind of like action movies. Soap operas. I mean, people believe that, I mean, there's no marriage 8:00here, girls are, you know, sleep with everybody. And all kinds of stuff. I swear. (laughs) And when I came here the first--I mean, I was shocked. Um...my ex-husband was in um, Atlanta, he was working as an intern. So I came to Atlanta and then um, he had a co-worker from Florida. She was also intern. And she was divorced, she had two kids. So one day I just invited them for dinner. She and her two daughters. And then I cooked, of course I prepared Turkish food. And then um, with that broken English I was trying to communicate. (laughs) It was hard. And then um, I draw pictures and paint some stuff, so I have um, I had some like, nice kids pictures that I painted so I offered this the girls. I said, "Well if you, if you like it you can, you can take one." The were so excited and they were like, you know, surprised that I offered. So they pick one and then um, maybe like after two or three weeks my ex-husband came and then he 9:00said...the internship was done. So we had to go back to Michigan. But um, they, before school start, we had like, maybe fifteen or twenty days. So she offered us to go to Florida with them. And then um, well we, you know, asked other Turkish people and then said, "Oh no, she's not serious. She's just, you know, trying to be nice." And then my ex-husband asked me, he said, "What do you think?" I said, "Well, if she's serious, why not?" And then, so we said, "Okay." And they were so happy that we are going with them. After two days, her mom called her and asked her if I drink coffee or not. Because she's not a coffee drinker. And then she asked my ex-husband and he said, "Yes, she does." And her mom went to shopping, got a coffee machine and coffee and everything, everything was ready for me. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

(00:10:00)

OZ: So we went there and we stayed with them um...I mean it was, it was 10:00unbelievable. I mean Turkish people are known with their hospitality, but the hospitality that I saw from them, I was shocked. And at that time, I mean, it was my first three months, I realized that life is not in the movies in the United States. There is a family life, I mean, people have respect. Nobody is shooting each other. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: And mothers are mothers, you know. They care for their kids. But, we have different impression over there. We thought that, you know, mothers, they don't care for their kids. And they are not good mothers and all kinds of stuff. But...So that was the first thing that um, I realized. So I was writing, oh my God, maybe like 8, 9 page letter to my family. And giving all the information that I'm having here. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Well um, we had talked before we started taping a little bit and you said that people always ask you about Midnight Express, the movie.

OZ: (laughs) That's true. Um, actually that movie's really old, and I...believe me, I would, I think last year. Here, in Bowling Green. Some channel. And I was bored and I was playing with remote control and I went, "Oh my God, this is that movie!" And then, because when people ask I don't have, you know, no idea. I didn't know what to say. I was like, "Well yeah, I've heard something but I don't know." It's exactly political movie. There's nothing to do with, you know, Turkish prison, whatever. And it's so basic. I mean, in that movie people speak Turkish, those are not even like native speakers. Those are um, exactly people from Greece. Exactly political movie just to make, you know, bad influence for Turkey. (laughs) And plus, I mean, you know, when we saw it um--when was it, 12:00maybe two years ago. Um, the police they hit some Mexican in California. Do you remember? They taped, they taped. That he was kicking these people or something like that. Yeah. When people ask me, you know, I ask them the same question. I say, "Do you think that the United States, all the police officers are nice? No." Plus, I don't think the police officers are being, you know, (indeterminable).

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: I mean it's a punishment. I mean, of course, I'm not saying that they should be like that movie. But of course they should be a little bit uncomfortable. How are we all going to stop people, you know, being illegal? Or being illegal, something like that. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: But um, of course I'm not saying that all police officers are nice or whatever. Um...So it's just, to me, it's a fake thing...Yeah. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Mhmm. So...What did you think of Florida?

OZ: Well, I love it. I love it. And um, the only thing that I hate, roaches. Big 13:00and they fly. I hate it, I hate it. (laughs) But I like it. And um, especially, (clears throat) excuse me, and her family. And she took off her (indeterminable) so we stay there. Like we were going to shopping, I mean she was forcing us to go and see around the city. And then when I came back she gave us her bedroom. And she was sharing one with her daughter. And she changed the old, you know, clothes, cars, and everything. She cleaned bathroom. I was, you know, I feel so embarrassed. I was, like, she shouldn't do that! (laughs) And then um, when we are going to leave, she wake up really early and she made food cooler. She put like, God, ten eggs, and foods and foods, and everything. And then I saw like 14:00big role of paper and I didn't know what, you know, she was carrying. And then she came. And then um, she knew that my English was very weak. She start talking very slowly, looking in my eyes. She said, "This is a map of United States." And then she showed me one key, and then she said, "This is my house key." (laughs) And she said, "Keep this, too." (laughs) And she said, "This door always will open to you guys." (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Aw.

OZ: I still have that key. I mean, yeah, we still keep in touch. And um, and after that, went back to Michigan. She had a um, that kind of watch.

DRUMMOND: Mickey Mouse?

OZ: Yeah, Mickey Mouse. That um, it played "Small World."

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: We went to Disney Land and all kind of stuff and uh, I like it. And...after like, maybe like two weeks after we went back to Michigan, postman came and then 15:00he was getting a package, and I was expecting a package from Turkey. I thought it was from my mom. And then when I opened I was shocked. She, she send me this watch, and she made a (indeterminable) for my ex-husband. With his first name and last name. And then she put um, one of our pictures to frame. She was like fixing us, me and my husband. And I was always like, "Wow!" (laughs) Yeah...And um...well, and (indeterminable) if I liked Florida or not, I don't know. But, she's my friend and I like her.

(00:15:34)

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: So then for them make something to me. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: What brought you to Bowling Green?

OZ: Well um, after my husband finish his study um, we didn't have, I mean we didn't get any money from the government. So we came our own money. And um, because of that also I had to wait for him, you know, to get job and then he would be able to support me to go to school. So he finished his school and he 16:00got job, and then it was my turn. And um, in Turkey I was working as a cartographer for 13 years. I didn't want to go to school for four years. So I thought that if I can find, you know, a two-year school and then my degree and then find a job, and you know, and then live happily after... (laughs) It is unbelievable. I couldn't find any two-year school in the United States except Bowling Green and one in Maryland. And then I asked several people, they said, "Oh no, don't go to Maryland." It was, even I don't remember the time. Plus I didn't like their um, program because they focused on (indeterminable) which I didn't need to learn.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And um, and I liked Western's program, so I choose Bowling Green, Kentucky. (laughs) Western Kentucky. And I applied and I got accepted and then I came here 1995. January. So I've been almost five years. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Is that when y'all broke up, or...

OZ: Um well, actually um, we were having some problems. And plus, that one was another reason I didn't want to stay there. I just wanted to go far somewhere and just stay by myself and decide what I want to do. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: What did you think Bowling Green was going to be like?

OZ: I didn't have no idea. I mean, it was like coming to United States...It like--when I was in Turkey, I mean, I lived there for 29--no not 29--32 years. Even like some people, if they know me, when they hear my name they have some idea, you know. Physically about my personality. And um, nobody, nobody knew me here. So I, exactly I had to start from scratch. Beginning. And I come into 18:00Bowling Green with another beginning also. I didn't know anybody here. I just, my ex-husband and one of our friends, we drove together. And then um, they left me in dorm. (laughs) I was there again. (laughs) So um, I think I am kind of like, people-oriented person, so this is the reason I never ever, you know, had to kind of um, worries of like what would happen to me, if I'm going to have friends, and all kind of stuff. I knew that I would have relationships here.

DRUMMOND: I've me one other woman from Turkey here.

OZ: Uh-huh.

DRUMMOND: Are there any other people?

OZ: Well actually, uh, there's one faculty and I think two years ago he got married, so his wife. (laughs) Actually, I think she was a student here. And I know there is one Turkish guy. He got married to an American woman and they have two kids. Um...that's all I know. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: So...there's a community that gets together for things or...

OZ: Do you mean in Bowling Green?

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: No. No. No. (laughs) You'd need more people I guess. Just, I mean, (indeterminable) and I, we see each other. But otherwise, you know, kind of (indeterminable), their relationship is a little bit different than ours. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Um, what was your dorm like in Bowling Green? The first dorm?

OZ: Well, (laughs) first, I wasn't, you know, a traditional student. And I was 35 years old, and--actually it was my um, best semester. (laughs) I made really good GPA. (laughs) I got really good motivation. But I didn't have any friends there. And, I mean, I had my own room, I didn't have roommates. But all girls are like 18, you know, 19, 20 year old girls. And I kind of feel myself old and 20:00a little bit far from them. And plus um, Bowling Green um, there are not many international people. Um, they don't come to you. I have to go to them. I mean, first impression here, when I compare Michigan and Bowling Green, or let's say Michigan and Kentucky, that's was a differences. Like, I was surprised, when I went to um, I think it was Kroger. I went to Kroger once. And then I went to buy cold cut. So I said, (indeterminable). She start laughing! She was like, you know, behind the counter laughing and laughing. I was like, "God, what'd I say? 21:00What did I say?" You know. "What's my mistake?" And then she stopped, she said, "Honey, you said the wrong thing." I said, "What am I going to say?" She said, "You will say 'Help.'" (laughs) I said, "Well, did you understand what I mean?" She said, "Yeah, sure." So I said, "What is the point?" (laughs)

(00:21:16)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: I don't know, I think she got kind of like (indeterminable) like, "Oh honey, don't be, you know, feel blah, blah, blah. I was just trying to help you." I said, "Okay, thank you." (laughs) That kind of small thing. I mean, in Michigan people don't pay attention to your accent. Just they are trying to understand what you are talking about. Or just, you know, they are trying to communicate with you. At the beginning I had that kind of problem, and I don't know, maybe doing it five years, I mean it's so obvious that Bowling Green is really, you 22:00know, getting bigger. And I can see that Bowling Green is having more international people. Because before always I got the same question. They looked at me, you know, I don't look Chinese or Asian, so the second guess they thought that I'm from somewhere South America. (laughs) Even like they would ask like, "Which part, you know, from South America?" I'm like, "I'm not from South America!" (laughs) Sometime I meet people and um, they never know where is Turkey. Even, you know, they didn't know where is Europe. (laughs) That kind of thing.

DRUMMOND: I've had people tell me that they were Russian when they were Ukrainian. For that same type of reason. Or even Armenian.

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Because of that.

OZ: Yeah, yeah. (laughs) Well yeah, it's not easy. I mean some--when I look from 23:00their point I can understand. But um, like if you go to Turkey, if you want to, you know, if you try to say something in Turkish, oh my God, people are going to get crazy about you. I was like, "Oh!" They'd go like, "Oh look, she's trying to say something," or you know, they would love it. They would love it. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Because they would try to, try to understand you. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Do you miss Turkey?

OZ: Well um...I don't miss Turkey but I miss my family. And um, after I came to the United States I find out that there's no perfect place. And I believe that we are making the perfect place. You know, it depends on you, it depends on people. So right now, I mean to me it doesn't matter. I can go back to Turkey, I can live there. But right now I'm 39, I don't want to start from the beginning again. Because I lost my old connections in Turkey. I mean, when I came, maybe 24:00first two years we were keeping ties and writing and all kind of stuff. But now, I mean today, when I go to Turkey the only people that I visit is my family. I mean, 8 years is kind of long I guess. And um, it's kind of weird. When I go there I don't feel myself at home at all. And one of my friends asked me one day, he said, "Which part of Turkey do you feel that you are (indeterminable)?" And I thought of all the cities that I lived and I said, "Ann Arbor." (laughs) Which is in Michigan. I was living there. I found myself that way. I mean, you know, all relationships and--wherever you live, I think home is there. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Do you think you're going to stay in Bowling Green?

OZ: Um...I don't think so. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh.

(00:25:00)

OZ: Well I mean, I love Bowling Green. Um, I'm not crazy about big cities. Maybe because I lived in big city in Turkey. Especially I hate that heavy traffic. I hate it. And um...but...because of my profession, I don't have too many chance here. So that's the first reason I...should go. (laughs) In another place. That's the reason.

DRUMMOND: What would you miss...the most if you left?

OZ: Bowling Green? Of course my friends. (laughs) First I'll miss them. Um, well I mean, it doesn't mean that I'm going to leave and I'm not going to back. No, of course not. I will visit my friends and...I'll be back sometimes. (laughs) And um, I mean I got my education here and I appreciated that. And I learned a 26:00lot here. So I will never forget. I'll be back.

DRUMMOND: You'll be back. (laughs)

OZ: (laughs) Actually Bowling Green is perfect place to raise kids, so if I have kids one day I may come back and settle down in Bowling Green. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: You talked about food and that you make traditional Turkish food.

OZ: Yes.

DRUMMOND: What...do you have a hard time getting the ingredients to make it here, or...

OZ: No, no, no, no. No, not really. That's the reason, I think um, one of the nice place to--you know in United States. Because of diversity. And I mean, you can find everything. So, like for example, when I was in Michigan I prepared Turkish food again and there was a Turkish faculty, and also I just invited all my teachers and everyone. So he was there. He was shocked. He was like, "How did you cook this? This is exactly same thing I had in Turkey." I said, "Well, same way. I cooked it." (laughs) No, I mean, yeah if you want do something, no it 27:00will not be--it's not going to be a problem.

DRUMMOND: Do you cook Turkish food daily?

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: That's what you eat most of the time?

OZ: Yeah, unfortunately I do not like fast food. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs) What, what is Turkish food exactly?

OZ: Well um...We eat lots of meat.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And um, also we have lots of vegetables. And um, I think Turkish food is heaven for the vegetarian people. We have lots of food without meat. And um, because of the Ottoman Empire, you know, during the Ottoman Empire, they captured lots of land. And um, of course wherever they went, they took their culture with them (indeterminable). Plus, they adopt new culture. So for that reason, we have lots of food very close to European food. We have lots of food 28:00very close to Arabic food. I mean, lots of things are very close with Greek food, for example. I mean, if I want to eat Turkish food out and um, if there's no Turkish restaurant, I'll pick Greek restaurant. Almost, almost same.

DRUMMOND: Do you go down to Nashville?

OZ: I always wanted. I mean, I did several times but um, unfortunately I couldn't learn so when I go there I use maps. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: And um...Two years ago I had different friends so they graduated, the left. And um, we drove there several times. We had fun. I think that's the other thing...makes Bowling Green, you know, most nice place to live. You know, if 29:00want to go to a big city there's Nashville or Louisville. Um, if you want to, you know, live in nice place with quiet, (laughs) here is Bowling Green again. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: How about holidays. What holidays do you celebrate?

OZ: Oh God. (sighs) You will not believe it. Okay, a year is 362 days, right?

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: Basically in Turkey we have like almost every year 100 days a year holidays. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Plus, holidays is like Thursday, so government let's down, you know, shut the offices and everything for the Friday. And then we'll have like four whole days, and we're like, "People will...get their suitcases, and go to beaches, do something, and then come back again. We have lots of holidays, yeah. When I was um, well actually I'm still working in the same place...Um, I think it was Christmas. Yeah. And my boss said that--I mean he was joking--he said that I 30:00should come and work because I'm not a Christian. I said, "Well fine. Then, let's say I'm a Muslim, and then during, you know, Muslim holidays then you should give me paid vacation." He just thought a little bit, he said, "No!" (laughs) Because we have a lot. (laughs) Yeah.

(00:30:30)

DRUMMOND: Do you celebrate um, holidays here then? Do you get together with people?

OZ: Mmm, well actually, I think it was last year. I heard that um, in Western Kentucky University um, some of the faculty or students were going to celebrate end of Ramadan. So Ramadan, you know, they didn't eat for 30 days and all kind of things. At end of Ramadan we have 3 or 4 days holidays. And um, they invited me but I am not really uh, religious person. (laughs) So this is the reason I 31:00have no idea when is Ramadan, when is other things, you know. Just people call me and say, "Well, this is this (indeterminable)." I'm like, "Fine." (laughs)

DRUMMOND: How about um, New Year's? (indeterminable) What's the Muslim name for New Year's?

OZ: I don't know, we call it New Year's.

DRUMMOND: Okay, well that's good. Maybe it's, it's Bosnian...

OZ: Oh, maybe.

DRUMMOND: They have a different name...How about New Year's. Do you celebrate New Year's?

OZ: Yeah, yeah. And um, some like, even in Turkey some fundamentalist Muslim people they are vey against to celebrate New Year's because of (indeterminable) and all kinds of stuff.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: But um, yeah I mean we do like...shows and--here it's not really crazy.

DRUMMOND: Right.

OZ: But I mean, people who get (indeterminable) over there and celebrate New Year's. And it is interesting that um, we also ate turkey during the New Year. It's very, very special food for New Year's.

DRUMMOND: Turkey?

OZ: Uh-huh.

DRUMMOND: How did you cook it?

OZ: I don't know, with my mom. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: I think just boiled and served with rice. And um, what else we do? Also some people do like Christmas tree, but of course over they call it New Year's tree. Not Christmas tree.

DRUMMOND: Really?

OZ: Yeah. And of course people give gifts each other.

DRUMMOND: This is Muslim people doing this?

OZ: Well actually Turkey's not like other um, Middle East countries. Um like, I think almost 100 years ago after Ottoman Empire, we got democracy. And um, 33:00Turkey was the first secular country in the Middle East. So I mean the religion and the politics is totally different. The government, I mean, there's nothing to do with each other.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And um, I mean you don't have to cover your hair or you don't have to, you know, wear the long, that kind of stuff. Or cover your face, something like that. My mom is 63 now, I guess, and I never seen her using scarf. And for that reason um, Middle Eastern people think that um, we are too Westernized for the Muslim society. (laughs) Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Different.

OZ: It is different.

DRUMMOND: I wonder, with all of the Europeans that are living here now, if New Year's will become bigger here. Because there's a lot of people that 34:00(indeterminable) about New Year's.

OZ: Mhmm, mhmm. Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And even like, people from Vietnam and Cambodia. That's a big holiday. It's a big holiday for everyone.

OZ: Yeah, that's true.

DRUMMOND: Except for Bowling Green. And I just wonder...

OZ: Yeah I mean--well to me, I don't think of, you know, religion or something. It's something to celebrate, that's it. Something to just, you know, remember your loved people. And um, just you know, send them cards or call them or give them gift. I mean...that's the reason. And plus, you know, one more year. We are getting old. Why not celebrate? (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Yeah. Of course.

OZ: Yeah. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Um, how about like Thanksgiving and the American holidays? When did you start--do you celebrate those at all?

OZ: Well...no, not really. But I mean, of course my friend invites me and I go, you know, and um...Of course when I go there they don't expect me to do something special. Even--I mean, you don't do special thing but um, um...I just (indeterminable)...but....in...my heart? No. I don't celebrate. But again, 35:00celebration is celebration. It's--I mean, Thanksgiving is good thing. People come together. Whole family. You know, at least once a year. Because in United States, you know, all families um, people are, you know, living in different place. So it's a good idea. At least once a year they come-- (tape cuts out)

(00:35:15)

DRUMMOND: (indeterminable) Tell me about Turkish coffee.

OZ: Oh. (laughs) Well actually it's like cappuccino. But the way we cook, that makes Turkish coffee. And um, we drink with little cups and have to be foam top over it. If it's not foam it means you are not good coffee maker. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: They will give you (indeterminable) points. (laughs) And um, actually after we drink coffee um, we put upside down and it's like telling each others--is it fortune tellers? Just you know, see the tracks and...make some fortune (laughs) about that person. And it's just for fun. But usually...we drink at least three times a day. A little cup of Turkish coffee. And it is strong. It is very strong. Maybe this is the reason we use little cup. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Do you just drink one cup when you sit down to do it, or...

OZ: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no way. (laughs) I never seen some people that, you know, they will ask for more than one. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Do people sit down together to do it? Does everybody stop what they do and sit down, or...

OZ: You mean um...

DRUMMOND: To drink a cup of coffee, or...

OZ: No just they will talk and, you know...drink the coffee. (laughs) And then after that (indeterminable) part, especially women does. Not men.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: What are the patterns? Like if you--to do the fortune telling? What's like an example?

OZ: Well um, let's see. For example, if you see something like a guy...it means you have an enemy. For example. So if you see like, straight line it means that you will...have a trip. If that line is like kind of closed, you will--I mean you can say that that person is planning to have a trip. But it will not come true. Something is going to happen that--and then that person will not be able to take that trip. And um, what else...Camels, camels are not good. If you see camels.

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Birds are good. It means you are going to have news.

DRUMMOND: This is...the...grounds?

OZ: The grounds.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

OZ: Because there's a little bit of grounds, so you have to turn it over...

DRUMMOND: Yeah, yeah.

OZ: ...and look at it. Turkish coffee you will, you will have grounds. Yeah, the 38:00difference between cappuccino and Turkish coffee I, I think is the grounds part. And um when I make Turkish coffee to my American friends, they're kind of get like, you know, "Ugh! This is disgusting! What is this?" (laughs) I told them not to drink, you know, all of it. Like, leave it! (laughs)

DRUMMOND: That's your fortune. (laughs)

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: How did you do--how did you learn to do that?

OZ: Well, I learned from my mom. Just, you know, to listen to her. And then I curious and I was asking her like, "Mom, do you know (indeterminable)." So then she start showing me and explained to me. And then I started doing it. (laughs) But sometimes...it comes true.

DRUMMOND: M'hmm.

OZ: It's funny but it is. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Yeah. (laughs)

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Alright, you dance. You're a belly dancer.

OZ: Well, not a professional one. Yeah, that's true. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Yeah I do. I love belly dance.

DRUMMOND: How did you learn to do that?

OZ: Well again um...In Turkey um, they have like girls day, you know. Just we come together, you know, eat and--not drink alcohol but coffee, tea, whatever. And...probably, I mean mostly, end of it we're all going to start dancing. It's just a, just a custom. (laughs) I guess it's just having fun.

DRUMMOND: M'hmm.

OZ: So um, actually I learned from my mom's sister. My mom cannot dance. Oh, she's so bad. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: But my aunt, she's really good. And um...so she taught me some parts. And then um, when I was reaching, you know, professional belly dancer, I watched them very carefully and I got ten women and then tried several times and I got it. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: So, how often do you dance?

OZ: Well...whenever I want. I mean, I am dancing--if I'm dancing by myself I'm, I'm doing like an exercise. It, it is really tough exercise. It's better than aerobics. And um, yeah sometimes I, I mean, even like when I'm alone at home I just wear my costume and start dancing by myself. (laughs)

(00:40:16)

DRUMMOND: We were talking with Daphne, I think, about how you learn the movements. For instance say um...an American woman who hasn't seen a lot of dancing...doesn't catch on really quick.

OZ: Uh-huh.

DRUMMOND: And...I don't know.

OZ: I think, I mean, if you do the belly dance--to me, it's my opinion--um, you have to feel the music. I mean for example my sister, I mean she loves belly dance. But she cannot. She just cannot follow the music. And that's her problem. And um, when I try to teach people I told them to pay attention to drum. So if 41:00you follow drum and then move your hips or whatever part you want to, you know, move, if you go (indeterminable) the drum you will be fine. (indeterminable) things like, if you try to make an eight with your hips, of course you are going to be slow at the beginning. You are making eights like this. And then, and then make it faster, make it faster, make it faster. And then suddenly you will see yourself that you are doing it. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Actually when I was teenager uh, we had one um, professional belly dancer. I love her. And I mean, there were lots of, of course, belly dancers in Turkey and most of them look so cheap, you know. They are just kind of like body showing. I hate that. I don't like it. But this--

DRUMMOND: Kind of like what?

OZ: Showing their body.

DRUMMOND: Oh, oh body, okay right, right.

OZ: Yeah. Yeah, you know it's like wearing the sexy costumes and no art, basically to me. No aesthetic. But that woman, I mean she danced for Egyptian team. She was that famous. Now she has a school, belly dance school and she's teaching. And um, I watched her performing. It was unbelievable. I mean, everyone was so quiet. Even like you wouldn't take a breath. Just you know, watching her. I mean she was there and she was like feeling herself and her movement...beautiful. (laughs) So I learned lots of stuff from her. Her movement. I'm not dancing like others. I'm dancing like her. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: So it's not so much a sexy thing, but more--

OZ: No. Actually not. No. It's, belly dancing's not that. And um, actually I 43:00don't know the story, the real story about belly dance, how it became the belly dance. I know the one story um, because of sultan. And sultan has you know, like 40 or 50 wives, and um...one of them created belly dance just to get attention. To be with him that night. And then um, and then of course after that you know, other wives start learning and then it became like, kind of desire (sultan) for the sultan actually. But today for everybody. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: So do people dance for men? Or women and men? Or I guess when you were talking about the children, or the young girls, they would dance for each other.

OZ: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Or be dancing together.

OZ: Yeah. Actually, yeah I mean basically...there is no--I mean--no. It's not for men.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

OZ: But men don't belly dance. And um, if they do then I think that he's gay.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: So belly dance is for women. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: What do men do?

OZ: Um, they have different kind of dance (indeterminable). I mean, but if somebody's you know, belly dancing there they will just sit down and watch. Or just you know, try to be on stage but not to do belly dance. They will not. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: When do people belly dance in Turkey? Whenever? Or...

OZ: When? Well I mean, almost everywhere restaurant has their professional belly dancer. And umm, usually they'll have--it's not a band, but maybe just one singer. He plays and sings and then after that um, most of the places will have belly dancer. Some places not. I mean bars, for example, you cannot see belly dancers there. But, most restaurants and some...(indeterminable) you know, 45:00because it's not like a gentlemen club, you know.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: When I say clubs you know, I mean like you can sit and have you know, dinner and listen to music and all kind of stuff. That kind of thing (laughs) in Turkish. And um, yeah and plus like, weddings. Weddings are, god, big thing to them. And, well we have a thing like if you go to a wedding you have to dance. If you go to a funeral you have to cry. So you have to prepare yourself. If you are going to a wedding you have to dance. I think they'll force you. (laughs)

(00:45:27)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: You cannot say no. (laughs) Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Is there a set dance? Or do people just...get together? Or does one person do the dancing?

OZ: No, no, no. All just kind of dance all together.

DRUMMOND: Everybody together.

OZ: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of dance is today like, kind of folklore dance. Like you know, several groups and they get together, and of course everybody cannot dance with them. They are kind of (indeterminable). And um, actually when I was in Turkey I was a folkloric dancer also. I was in a...not a 46:00(indeterminable) but it was like association, something like that. So...um, yeah I was in folk dance also.

DRUMMOND: Who did you dance for?

OZ: Um, we had like national celebration days and we traveled, go to that region. And we had like costumes, whichever ever the part we danced along we had to wear that costume. And then do that dance. And um, I love it because every dance has a meaning. I mean every movement has a meaning. When you dance and--if you know it, it makes difference. Of course in the audience they don't know. But um, we always tried to give them some knowledge. You know, what that means, what that means. Like for example, we have one dance um...not part of (indeterminable). And um girls are dancing very slow. Like a butterfly. And the 47:00special think you have to learn, I mean, when they look at you they will think that you are sliding, not walking. And um, it's like, they look very fragile and all kind of stuff. And the guys came like, you know, with muscles and jumping and all kind of stuff. The (indeterminable), the leader of the guy fall in love with one of the girls. And of course other guys are like, "That girl?" So they are trying to get her attention. And um, they are doing really hard movements and just, you know, to be best for her that she can pick one of them. And then um, every time when they finish their movement or whatever they are doing for her, they (indeterminable) him--her. And...if she doesn't like, she just, I mean when she was dancing she just turn her face other side. It means, "I don't like you. I don't want you." So he left and another comes and all kind of stuff. And all the girls and guys come together and, you know, make a circle and dance together (siren sounds) and, guys were trying to see the girl's face and then 48:00girls were, you know, trying to cover their face and all kind of stuff. It's, it's...I love it. I mean, I...I love to dance with the whole, that story. If you know the meaning.

DRUMMOND: Have you met other people in the United States that dance? That you dance with?

OZ: You mean, folk dance?

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: Yeah! Yeah.

DRUMMOND: You have?

OZ: Yeah, when I, actually when I was in Michigan uh, in University of Michigan there are lots of Turkish students. And they have really big Turkish Student Association. So we had a folk group there and um, we danced. Yeah. And even like we had two American friends there. They came and they learned. They danced with us. I mean, even like...there was a huge audience.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And uh, we had one guy, one girl. And um, they enjoyed. And I was (indeterminable). And they loved those costumes. Kind of heavy but...something 49:00different. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: What were the costumes for the butterfly and the...

OZ: Well actually it's like, satin. And um, I don't know how can I explain? Very nice dress. Very nice. And they are like long, kind of scarf, very long. Because when you dance you have to hold two parts and then dance with those. It has to be that way.

DRUMMOND: So you hold it in your hand?

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And...

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: Move it around...

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: The scarf...

OZ: Yeah, yeah.

DRUMMOND: Oh, sounds great.

OZ: Yeah, we had a um, little group there. And um, band, Turkish band of course. So...I was a singer with the band. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: You know all of this.

OZ: (laughs) I just like that kind of stuff I guess. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: You think I'm not going to ask you to sing a song. (laughs)

OZ: Oh my gosh! (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Well if I start it's going to be hard to stop me then. (laughs)

(00:50:01)

DRUMMOND: (laughs) Well, tell me about your belly dancing costume. Would you like to get it, or?

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: We could get a photograph.

OZ: It's um...it's handmade. Actually everything is handmade. And um...

DRUMMOND: Oh my goodness.

OZ: Okay. So this is the skirt part. Like little pieces you know, when you move.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: So you move the (indeterminable). And then (indeterminable) you are going to put that on.

DRUMMOND: Oh that is so beautiful! But it's so bright!

OZ: So that's the tricky part. See when you put...they should see your belly button.

DRUMMOND: Okay, so that goes around...

OZ: (laughs) Yeah, it goes around like this. See, they expect you to put this because when you move it's easy to see you're movement.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: I mean, it's not--see when I do this...

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: You know, yeah I am moving but...but look at this.

DRUMMOND: Oh yeah.

OZ: (laughs) So.

DRUMMOND: So did the same woman make the dress that did all this beadwork?

OZ: Yes

DRUMMOND: It was a woman.

OZ: Even like, I mean they did the sewing by their self.

DRUMMOND: Oh my gosh.

OZ: And also I mean that lady, she also um, designed those stuff by herself.

DRUMMOND: She made the designs by herself?

OZ: Yeah, yeah. She has different kinds...So this is the top part.

DRUMMOND: Oh my gosh!

OZ: So she did like a little bit with this thing. I like that part. So it goes like this.

DRUMMOND: I have to have one.

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: So like this. (laughs) And then...Yeah, so...

DRUMMOND: Oh.

OZ: When you dance, when you belly dance if you move your hip, your shoulder and breast should move.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: If you are dancing just the top part, then you should just straight your hips. So again, this part still helps (indeterminable). (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh. I think these are flowers. What are these designs?

OZ: Yeah, actually this is tulips.

DRUMMOND: Tulips?

OZ: It's uh, actually it's Ottoman Empire's symbol.

DRUMMOND: Okay.

OZ: Yeah.

DRUMMOND: And this is...

OZ: It's, yeah, it's kind of same stuff. And um...

DRUMMOND: This is so--I can't believe it! Each little sequin has little...

OZ: Yeah! I mean they sew it, you know, one, one, one, one. And this is kind of bracelet.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: It's accent or something. Because when you, you know, belly dance you have to use your hands.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And if you put something in your hands it, you know, will be kind of...

DRUMMOND: Flashier.

OZ: Yeah. And so she made a snake. Like this. And then...

DRUMMOND: Oh.

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Very flashy.

OZ: And then she made this one afterwards. It's very simple. You can put it on your head. Like that.

DRUMMOND: So did she make this one just for you? Or...

OZ: Well no actually she is making and selling. She is selling to Europe. I mean she is living with that.

DRUMMOND: Uh-huh.

OZ: And um, and she lives very close to my mom and they know her to doing that. And this is a scarf that...she made. In belly dance you can use whatever you want. For example that lady that I was talking about that's the best belly dancer.

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: Once she used um, the stick that you know, old people use when they walk.

DRUMMOND: A cane.

OZ: Yeah! (laughs) She danced with that.

DRUMMOND: Wow.

OZ: Oh god. I mean, she is very creative. So this lady made that one and when you dance you can use...and whatever you want you know. In belly dance there is no rules. (laughs) When you know the simple movements you can make your own style. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: That is just--I can't believe that the beds don't break.

OZ: Yeah. She said that, I mean you know, some of them, some other people that they make it's not good. But she said that she sells this professional.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: And she said that I mean, one of the belly dancers she is using costume for ten years. And she gave me gave me (indeterminable). She said that they are not going to sell.

DRUMMOND: That's amazing.

OZ: Yeah, I was there and she had like different colors. And you know, I was 55:00like, "Oh! Oh my god! I've got to get this one." And my mom went with me. And then um, I picked out one. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: And you told your mom it was for someone else, right?

(00:55:00)

OZ: Oh yeah. (laughs) My mom, no. My mom knew that I was buying for myself.

DRUMMOND: Oh she did, okay.

OZ: Yeah, just she didn't want her neighbors to know that.

DRUMMOND: Oh, okay. (laughs)

OZ: (laughs) So yeah, one lady think that I got this one for American lady (indeterminable).

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: (laughs) Different culture. (laughs) Yeah, old people...have more rules than young

DRUMMOND: Oh yeah.

OZ: Yeah. It's fun. Belly dancing's fun.

DRUMMOND: Alright, how about a song. Would you do it? You don't have to if you don't want to but...

OZ: No, I can...

DRUMMOND: Okay good.

OZ: But um...god....What kind of--like, for example we have, god maybe three 56:00different original Turkish, you know, styles. Like folk songs. We call Turkish art music. An there's nothing to do with art, but just we call it that way. It's kind of um...it is different. And of course we have Turkish pop. And of course we have um, Turkish country. (laughs) Actually we called, we didn't call it "Turkish country," we called "Arabesque."

DRUMMOND: Arabesque?

OZ: Uh-huh. And um, actually sometimes we made fun, we said that um, truck driver's music.

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Sing an old Turkish song. You know like kind of...

OZ: Old?

DRUMMOND: That you like. Maybe that you grew up with.

OZ: Well yeah, I am old. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh. (laughs)

OZ: Yeah um, my mom always sung us, I mean, Turkish music were our lullabies. So even like, when I was teenager when I was 17 or 18, if I couldn't sleep I was like, "Mom!" You know, and she'd come in my room and she was like, "What? Okay." "Now, sing one!" (laughs) She never says no. (laughs) So she does and then um, maybe (indeterminable). She has a good voice.

DRUMMOND: Mhmm.

OZ: Well I'm think what should I sing? Okay, I'll sing one and the composer of this singer he died last year, I think. And he was one of the biggest composers and uh, singers in Turkey. Just a little. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Okay. That's okay. Here...

OZ: (sings). That's it. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Wow.

OZ: That's song something about missing somebody that um, it hurts because that person is not with him or her or whatever. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Wow, that was beautiful.

OZ: Well thank you. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: How about a lullaby. Can you do a lullaby?

OZ: Oh god, if I can remember. Oh, I know one, I remember. Because I always um (laughs) sung to my brother, little brother. (laughs) Uh, remember..... (sings). 59:00This one is about (indeterminable). And um, says that you should go to sleep and stop crying. (laughs) That tears were nothing, it's just wasting time. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh.

OZ: But yeah...

DRUMMOND: Oh, this was beautiful. You do have a beautiful voice.

OZ: Oh, well thank you. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: It was beautiful. You're in trouble next time we're drinking at the (indeterminable).

OZ: (laughs)

DRUMMOND: (laughs)

OZ: Well if you enjoy the Turkish music it's fine. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Oh I do, I love--it's beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

OZ: Thanks. (laughs)

(01:00:00)

DRUMMOND: Well, is there anything else you'd like to talk about? Or say? This is a tape that's going, as we talked about, it'll be in the archive. So if you have children one day um, or you know, family members or something years and years and years from now.

OZ: Uh-huh.

DRUMMOND: That were going to listen, what would you want them to know? What would you want somebody to know in Bowling Green 100 years from now?

OZ: Well...god who knows what will happen to Bowling Green. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Yeah.

OZ: I like being here and um, I've made really, really good friends. And um...I'll always keep in touch with them. And um, I hope it's not going to 61:00change in 100 years. (laughs) I hope that people are going to be still friendly and nice as today. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Anything else that you want to say?

OZ: That's it. (laughs)

DRUMMOND: Okay. Well thank you very much.

OZ: You're welcome.

DRUMMOND: I enjoyed the interview. (laughs)

OZ: (laughs}

(01:01:15)