Oral History Interview with Erfan Hettini

LUANN JOHNSON: Hettini, for the Bowling Green Immigrants Oral History Project. It is August 25th, 1998. And we're doing this interview in Barnes & Noble cafe...

EFRAN HETTINI: Erfan is late. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs) And we were, we will hear um, background noise from the cafe. Um, wanted to make a note of that in the beginning.

HETTINI: Yeah, let's (indeterminable) (laughs)

JOHNSON: Yeah. Well I was going to start by um, asking you about um, your, your homeland. Your hometown. What you consider home.

HETTINI: Well, Pismo Beach, mainly. And--

JOHNSON: When did you move there?

HETTINI: Well it was, let's see...80, maybe 86. We, my parents owned a home there before, but I never lived there permanently. Just visiting. More like a, like a vacation home. And then around that time when I went there right after high school, stayed there for a year and a half. Then followed my older brother to Nashville. He was going to school.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HETTINI: He had just switched schools from Arizona to Tennessee, so...

JOHNSON: And your, your home--you were born where?

HETTINI: I was born in uh, Syria. But I'm also Palestinian by parents, by parents, you know.

JOHNSON: Where did you spend your younger years?

HETTINI: Well, in Kuwait. My dad had a, a job with the Ministry of Education in Kuwait. Plus he was a business man there. He had business interests in there, in that region, in that area. And I lived there. I went to middle school and high school there. And uh, right after high school I came to the United States. You know, where my older brother was already, you know, living here for at least two years. No, he was living here for like, oh gosh, like six years permanently. So...

JOHNSON: Yeah. And now you're a permanent citizen?

HETTINI: I'm an American, an American...

JOHNSON: Of the United States?

HETTINI: ...citizen, right.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Did you ever live in Palestine?

HETTINI: No, actually. But that's uh, my parents, you know, you belong where your parents are even if you have not been there. And, but my parents were born and raised in Palestine.

JOHNSON: So you've been in the United States since the late 80s, or the mid-80s?

HETTINI: Uh yeah, something like that.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HETTINI: You know. We did visit like, couple times before I permanently moved here after high school, but...

JOHNSON: Um, when you moved to Bowling Green--what brought you to Bowling Green specifically?

HETTINI: Well, I went to Beaumont College in Nashville for uh, a year and a half. Maybe two years. You know.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: And uh, then I switched to Western.

JOHNSON: What, what did you study? At Western?

HETTINI: Uh, Hotel, Restaurant, Tourism Management. And a minor in Business Administration.

JOHNSON: Okay. When you first moved Bowling Green, or to this region of the United States um, did you find it, did you find it different from where you were used to living, or...

HETTINI: Uh, yeah. Very different. I was raised in, in the city. I'm from the city mostly. And uh, it's kind of different.

JOHNSON: What...

HETTINI: Bowling Green. (laughs)

JOHNSON: What, what kind of um, things stand out in your mind that...

HETTINI: Well, for starters uh, when I came here I had some difficulty understanding what people were saying. Espec- uh, not the--ther were a lot of clear people, speaking clearly--but uh, lot of people were uh, speaking with very heavy country accents. And I had to get used to it before I could really comprehend what they were saying to me and stuff. That, well that's one of the things--plus the weather is different. It's humid and it gets, it's uh, very changing all the time. You know.

JOHNSON: Okay. Um, let's see...Your, your story's a little more unusual. Like a lot of the questions I tend to ask would be, you know, how, how did you first find it moving, immigrating here...

HETTINI: Oh yeah.

JOHNSON: Moving here...Um, what are some of the major differences um, you found here here compared to when you were growing up as a child in...

HETTINI: Well...

JOHNSON: In...um....

HETTINI: Uh, here, you know, just life in general. People have uh, whole lot more bills. (laughs) You know. Uh, they work a whole lot more hours. Uh, they don't uh--overseas, people socialize a whole lot more. They have more time to socialize than over here. That's the main, one of the main things I noticed. Plus, there is just differences in, you know, the traffic laws and other laws and, you know.

JOHNSON: Well, have you run into any difficulties? Or any, anythings that you...

HETTINI: In Bowling Green? No, not really. It's very easygoing town, actually. You know. It's uh...I come, you know, from Pismo Beach, which is also kind of like a quiet town in California. And uh, peaceful and stuff. And Bowling Green's 5:00kind of like that, too. Except just the weather's very different, you know. And maybe, maybe things are just a little slower here. The life pace is.

(00:05:19)

JOHNSON: Okay. Have you found a, kind of a community that, that you've built up here? Do you have friends or family here?

HETTINI: I have a lot of friends here. I have a cousin in Paducah, Kentucky actually. And, who owns a construction company. And uh...I have made a lot of friends in Bowling Green and other areas.

JOHNSON: Where are your parents living now?

HETTINI: Well, they live, well they have different residences. So they don't have one in particular. But my dad still owns uh, some interest in Kuwait. He has some business interest. And he has uh, business interest in Syria, so he owns a home there. And uh, we own a home in Syria and California.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HETTINI: So...They kind of hop around, you know.

JOHNSON: (laughs) Okay. Um, is there a large community of Palestinians or, or Kuwaitis--is it, would it be Kuwaitis?

HETTINI: No.

JOHNSON: Or what...

HETTINI: I'm, I was considered a foreigner over there.

JOHNSON: Oh you were?

HETTINI: Uh yeah. (laughs) Everybody who's not Kuwaitis are foreigners there.

JOHNSON: Okay. Is there uh, a community (loud background noise), a community of, I guess Middle Eastern community here in Bowling Green that you...

HETTINI: There is, but it's very, very uh, quantitative. It's, it's very numbered, you know. Like the number is very small. Most of them are students so there's really no cohesiveness, you know, or anything like that. As you might say with families can be. But there is in Pismo Beach and of course California. It's full of them, so...

JOHNSON: Well, after you finish your degree--you finished your degree.

HETTINI: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: Um, why have you decided to stay in Bowling Green?

HETTINI: Well, originally I did not. Uh, I was going to move--I've always wanted to have a business of my own. Especially a Mediterranean restaurant chain. I wanted to be one of the first ones to launch one. Because there's not that many in the United States. And I was going to move to Pismo Beach, back, back home and, and uh, you know. Start the business there. But the day after I graduated, was that soon that the opportunity came along, and uh, so I just seized it and studied the area around here. And I know that Bowling Green is a test market for a lot of restaurant chains. So I figured I might as well can test my uh, concept over here first.

JOHNSON: Okay. So how have you set up your business? Um, what type of food?

HETTINI: It's--

JOHNSON: How did you decide on what type of food to serve?

HETTINI: Well, it's, it's--I decided on food I'm not uh, I didn't try to uh...be 8:00fast food. And I didn't want to be fine dining. I wanted to be somewhere in the middle. More like uh, along the lines of casual dining. And I, but with the prices being closer to, between casual dinings and fast food. A little cheaper than casual dining.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: You know. And uh, I wanted stuff that will be healthy. And uh, that's why I used like, very healthy cooking methods. (loud background noise) I only fry one item out of my whole menu. So...And uh, the food particularly, I don't want anything very authentic because most, most people in the United States uh, from what I experienced, they don't like too much spicy food, you know. They want a hint of maybe spice in there, you know. But not too much. And they'd rather, you know, they don't really like bland food either. You know. So, I made 9:00my food somewhere around, along those lines there...

JOHNSON: Okay. I have a lot of questions I want to ask you about your, your food. Because...well, first of all have you always cooked? Where did you learn to cook? And...

HETTINI: On my own.

JOHNSON: On your own?

HETTINI: Yeah. When I left home I never knew how to do anything. Because we always had housekeepers in the home. And uh, I just got tired of eating different foods here. And uh, one day I decided I was going to do home meal, homemade uh, meal. And I think I burnt the first one. Or, you know, it was really mushy rice and everything else. But I ate it anyway. You know. And from there on I just started, like, experimenting. And also by going to Western, you know, I learned some, a lot of techniques in the foods, cooking. You know. And 10:00uh, and then once I got it uh, down pat, you know, it was easier. And then also by coming to Barnes & Noble, looking at some books. Like Mediterranean cooking stuff, I learned some technique that I used to watch my mom sometimes do them, but I never comprehended what she was doing or why the reason she was doing these things. Uh, so I just kind of like, you know...figured it out. And then, you know, just for the last two years maybe, you know, I asked my mother like, questions about how do you do this and that, and...But I always had my own way of cooking actually. It's much lighter than my mother's food.

(00:10:36)

JOHNSON: Has your mother eaten your food?

HETTINI: Yeah. Actually, she liked it. The only thing was uh, for her, was she said it wasn't too authentic, you know.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Talk to me about authentic. Um, first of all, what, what types of items do you serve in your restaurant?

HETTINI: Uh well, it's...uh like, maybe falafel, you know. Hummus. That's authentic things, you know. And gyros. Uh, that's just the Greek name for a...the Mediterranean uh, you can call prime rib on a spit. It's just uh, gyros is the Greek name for it. And uh, there is other things. Like shish kabobs and baklava for dessert. And (indeterminable). And uh, salads. Of course, healthy salads. That's part of the Mediterranean diet. And kalamata olives. And other things.

JOHNSON: Okay. So, we're talking, it's kind of like a variety, a general variety from the region, the Mediterranean region?

HETTINI: Yeah. They, mostly they criss-cross. Like my, they gyros I get, it's really made by Greek company. But the bread I use is more widely used in uh, Middle Eastern countries than in Greece. However, they do use it in Greece, too, but not on a large scale like they do in the Middle East. And the salad is very similar to the salad they make in Greece. Uh, but the sauce I, I use the 12:00Mediterranean, or the Middle Eastern sauce uh, with the sandwich and everything else. And I also uh, kind of like uh, well you can fine tune it. I change it a little bit also. I used more healthy ingredients. Healthier, you know. It's a healthy sauce, but I kind of like modified it a little bit, made it even healthier, adjusted to the taste.

JOHNSON: Okay. How, how did you, what ingredients did you include or not include to make it healthier?

HETTINI: Well, one, one main ingredient is yogurt. Usually they use full, full fat yogurt, you know. I just 99% fat free yogurt. So it's kind of light. You know. And uh...That's one of the things. And, and the Greek one, it's called tzatziki, it's made from sour cream, which is, it's full of fat. And uh, it's 13:00made from cucumbers, you know. Very small cucumbers, uh...I know how sensitive people are to fat these days, and uh, how health-conscious they are and stuff. So I decided to use, like, to be as healthy, as health-conscious as I can be without compromising the taste of the food. Which food should be enjoyed first before anything else.

JOHNSON: Okay. Back to the concept of authenticity, or traditional foods, what types of foods did you usually eat when you were growing up? Or that your mother prepared or that your housekeeper would prepared?

HETTINI: Well, dolmas is, is my favorite, actually, kind of food. Stuffed grape leaves and stuffed uh, stuffed zucchini, stuffed peppers. That kind of stuff. And uh, they use a lot of rice overseas, you know. And rice maybe in vegetable stew with meat and chicken. All kind of stuff.

JOHNSON: And what about spices or seasonings?

HETTINI: Yeah, they, they use spices and seasonings. A whole lot more than in the United States.

JOHNSON: What were some of the, maybe, say, signature spices that you grew up with?

HETTINI: Uh...cumin is one of them. Curry, you know. Uh, turmeric. That's one of them, too. And there is some spices that you probably won't be, uh, you never heard of. Like sumac, and its uh, za'atar. And there's--za'atar is uh, oregano, actually. In the United States. But za'atar is a much different form of it. And uh, there's basil, maybe. Uh, black peppers, dried lemon. You know. And uh, also cardamom. That's, that's big over there. Oh, and saffron. Definitely saffron.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HETTINI: So, how do you negotiate--what did you think about when you were um, negotiating how you would prepare and serve food here in the space, or here in 15:00Bowling Green, compared to what you were used to as what you identified as Middle Eastern or Mediterranean?

(00:15:03)

HETTINI: Well, the only person I really negotiated with was myself.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HETTINI: You know, decided on. But uh, just form my won experience I cooked a lot and uh, you know, I have a lot of--most of my friends are Americans. And so, they've tried my food and they really like it. But my food is modified that...from my, what my mother used cook. Or what they still cook overseas. And, the like it a lot. And uh, I tested before I opened the restaurant. I have a couple friends that I tested on a lot. And uh, I told them I wasn't going to give free samples unless they give me their really, true opinions with that. And compliments. And they did uh, critique, you know, everything I did and stuff. And that helped me a lot, you know.

JOHNSON: Yeah. So what did you find that you, you changed the most?

HETTINI: Um, the spices blend, you know. Uh, that's, that's the most thing, you 16:00know. People don't uh--I don't use any oil in my cooking. Barely any, you know. Uh, I use oil, which is olive oil, which is really good for your health, actually. And uh, lemon juice and vinegar and garlic. That's, that's all good for you. And uh, but I just uh, kind of like uh, shied away from using too much spices. I've seen uh, also I've went to several restaurants like in Nashville. Middle Easter, Mediterranean. However you want to call it. And uh, I've noticed like, maybe there was about 20 attempts of restaurants that failed in Nashville. And uh, for some of them, actually succeeded. And I noticed different ones, what they did right, what they did wrong, and stuff like that. But I also had to take into consideration where I'm living. Where I was going to start my business. And 17:00what really uh, what level our people are on actually as far as knowing Mediterranean food. Where I was going to launch my business, so...Bowling Green, you know, is not a big city. Not as big, you know, as Nashville and stuff, so...But there's still a lot of people actually who know about Mediterranean food, being exposed to uh, maybe from traveling to Florida, Nashville, other areas. And, but for also, a lot of, a large number of people, they haven't. So I had to do something like uh, to get the point across to them to, to uh, actually to get them to try it, you know. Uh (coughs), so I started with the names. That's the first thing. Uh, I called the gyros, which is called shawarma actually in the Arabic, uh, and a lot of the Middle Eastern restaurants that's what they call it. I call it gyros, which is the recognizable name for it in the United States. Other things like uh, meatloaf, we call it kofta actually, and 18:00other restaurants we use kofta name here. If I put kofta on my menu, probably a lot of people would be uh, kind of skeptical about it, you know. Actually trying to the food. So I use the word meatloaf. Which they can uh, identify with. Relate to. Uh, you know, I use stuff like uh, you know, the way I describe my falafel, you know, I'm describing it as maybe hushpuppies, you know. Something people can relate to. Uh, a lot of things like shish kabobs, that's something people, a lot of people actually know. You know, that's, I didn't need to...But, like, something like hummus, you know, it's a garbanzo bean dip, you know. I just think that terms, you know, and I named my menu especially on things like, I divide my menu by platter, sandwich, or combo. All, all ending with catchy 19:00names, you know. Catchy terms. People are used to hearing combo. You know what I'm saying? Uh, that kind of thing, so...And also, from my own education at Western, you know, I, I designed menus before and stuff, and I know what (indeterminable) is and stuff like that, so...I, the menu part took me a long time to devise. And I tested for about six months before I opened the restaurant. And the, and the food, too.

JOHNSON: So, the, the distinction Middle Eastern or Mediterranean, do you have a preference? Or, how you describe your food?

HETTINI: Uh, it, I would call it, it's more like uh...it's more, I would say, it's...uh, it's...uh, Greek, Middle Eastern, but also, the way it's presented, presented more to accommodate Americans than people from those regions in Mediterranean.

JOHNSON: So if, if I were to travel in different regions of the Mediterranean I would run into--these are, these are items that I would--

HETTINI: Yeah.

JOHNSON: I would see.

HETTINI: Yeah, yeah. They'll have it.

JOHNSON: Run into...

(00:20:06)

HETTINI: I just, probably would be more authentic as far as spices. Uh, they might have more olives, more spices. Made in a different way. Uh, maybe made with items you...you have not experienced before. So, I just kind of like uh, the way I present my food here, and I approach people, is very, is very close to what Americans are used to. Without actually Americanizing my food. You know, that's one thing I wasn't going to do, is Americanize it, you know. Or authenticize it a lot either. So I wanted somewhere in the middle.

JOHNSON: Okay. Alright, do you ever prepare anything special for um, any customers who are, or...

HETTINI: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Middle Eastern customers?

HETTINI: Oh yeah, actually, yeah. When they, a lot of them they want something 21:00like falafel on side by itself, or...And then they want a little bit more spices and stuff like that. Uh, they want a little bit more sauce, you know. Just different things like that, you know. We're used to serve food in a different way, you know, uh, than I usually serve it here. Uh...

JOHNSON: How would you serve it um...differently?

HETTINI: Well, just, they're served in items that go together. You know. Uh...over there, like hummus, tabbouleh, falafel, and uh, maybe baba ganoush, or uh, or uh, there's another one...mutabbal, which is similar to baba ganoush but it's not the same. And they serve these items and they call them mezza. Mezza means appetizer. They serve them more as an appetizer rather than as like a meal. Sometimes they also serve them like a meal. But for example, they have one 22:00dish, it's hummus with uh, with shawarma on top of it, which is called gyros in the United States.

JOHNSON: With what on top of it?

HETTINI: Gyros.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: Shredded gyros. Right, but actually it's not the same that they sell here in the United States. It's made with a whole lot more spices and it's made from 100% lamb, you now. Uh, uh, but as far as the one I use, and the one that is actually available in the United States, that is made commercially uh, for used, to be used commercially, is uh, mostly beef. And maybe 15%, 20% lamb. But some, some rest-, a lot of restaurants actually, Middle Eastern restaurants, they just uh, get their own lamb meat and they stack on a spit. And to make the authentic way. But also, you know, I mean, in that way they uh, you got to take into consideration your customers, whether they, how they actually approach the 23:00food. Will they really like that kind of food, you know. A lot of, a lot of people, I've seen a lot of restaurant owners make a mistake of instead of uh, insisting on keeping everything so authentic on their menu. Their names, everything, that they actually lose out on a lot of customers because there's a lot of customers who'll be skeptical. You don't, you don't normally eat something you don't know.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: You know. There's a lot of people, you know, I think in the United States, or in this region, you know. Uh, they're very skeptical. You know, so the best way is to maybe modify the uh, the way--you have to modify the way you present it, you know. With terms that they can relate to. And you got to modify also the way it tastes. You know, the way it's presented on a plate.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: And the way it's set up. Like overseas, when we serve rice, you don't give bread with it. You know, it's, it's either one of the two. Because it's all carbohydrates. You know. Over here, bread is a main item. You got to have 24:00bread...with just everything. You know. Overseas, salads (beeping in the background) don't usually get bread with them, you know.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

HETTINI: Eat salad without bread. Over here, it's a given thing, you know.

JOHNSON: Okay.

HETTINI: So you got to modify that.

JOHNSON: Well at this point we need to stop (beeping in the background) um, this part of the interview and we'll pick it spat a different time.

HETTINI: Okay.

JOHNSON: But I thank you very much. And we will continue it later.

HETTINI: Cool.

(tape cuts out)

JOHNSON: Okay, it's September 23rd, 1998. And this is LuAnn Johnson. And I'm doing a follow up interview with Erfan Hettini...in the (indeterminable) grocery um, at Hettini's Mediterranean Deli. Um, it is located within the grocery 25:00itself. How are you doing today, Erfan?

HETTINI: Oh, great. How are you?

(00:25:00)

JOHNSON: I am fine (laughs). How are you? You're feeling better since your last interview.

HETTINI: Yeah, I can breathe.

JOHNSON: Okay. I spent a lot of time talking with you last time about food and your restaurant and your plans with the business. Um, and I just wanted to follow up by talking a little bit about what your goals and your plans for um, having a family or, or staying in, in The States are. What are your plans?

HETTINI: Well, my plans first they come to business right now. And uh, you know, uh, Hettini's eventually is going to have more than one just, location. And probably in different states. And uh, and uh...uh family, as far as family, probably will have family, but won't be this year or next year. (laughs) You know. It will be a little bit down the road from now.

JOHNSON: Okay. Would you stay in the Bowling Green area?

HETTINI: Uh, for the near future, yeah. That's where my center of business...I like Bowling Green, so...would not harm me to stay here.

JOHNSON: Um, do you envision once you do have a family, I guess...comparing how you grew up with how you live in America...

HETTINI: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: Uh, what are some of the values or customs or traditions that you would be sure to continue with your own family?

HETTINI: Well uh, one thing, I got to keep the family like uh, bilingual. They have to keep up, you know. Uh, not only that to uh, remind them of their heritage, but also that will give them an advantage here in the United States to be bilingual. And uh, you know, just uh...values and customs, just like in any other good family, you know. They want their kids to grown up to--with goals and careers. And, you know, to be kind and be nice and...you know. Kind of thing.

JOHNSON: Okay. What, what other language would they speak? Arabic, as well?

HETTINI: Arabic, yeah. Probably Arabic. And I probably would stress, you know, Spanish, as well. You know.

JOHNSON: Okay. Would you speak Arabic in the household as the first language? Or...

HETTINI: Uh, well with kids you have to, actually. You know, you have to, you know, from the very beginning because they can learn, learn English from school and their surroundings...The majority in the United States are English speaking so, the kids will have no problem picking up English. You know, but, you know, once they're home, you know, the parents have to actually speak to them, you know, in Arabic or their native language so that they'll pick it up, too. You know.

JOHNSON: Well why do you think this would give them an advantage in America?

HETTINI: Well, it'll give them different perspective on life, you know. And it can see things from one angle, but with uh, when you're versed uh--it just kind of like, makes you versatile, you know. And uh, it is an advantage.

JOHNSON: Yeah. And how is it important to you um, from a heritage point of view?

HETTINI: Well uh, for one thing, you know, it helps, you know, communicate. Probably if I have people from, who speak Arabic, customers, you know...uh, who can't speak good English or something like that. We can still communicate. Uh...and once, you know, you learn a foreign language, it can kind of like help other people, probably who can't speak very good English, or can't communicate. It kind of like uh, opens your horizons. And you kind of like--even if the other person can't really express themselves very good, but you kind of like, be able to infer what they're trying to express. And that's one of the advantages. Uh, plus it makes, makes it a whole lot easier for you to pick up even a third and a 29:00fourth language. You know. And uh, the only thing about it, though, you know, you could--you know, when I speak with my parents or something, I switch my, between English and Arabic, you know. They're mixed. One word is Arabic, one word is English. I just mix them up naturally without even thinking about it. You know. And it makes it kind of funny, you know.

JOHNSON: So what other uh, traditions or, or beliefs would you uh, keep alive within your family.

HETTINI: Uh...well, the, you know, the family has to be coherent. That's one value, you know. The families--my family is a very tight family. We've always been very close and, you know. That's, that's something people, you know, families need to, to keep...within them.

JOHNSON: What kinds of things keep you, do you feel help to keep you that close?

HETTINI: Well, I'm always in touch with my family. And one of the other things uh, you know, families overseas do is like, they help each other out. Like uh, 30:00you know, usually uh, the older brothers or sister--excuse me--who have jobs, you know. They'll help send their younger brothers to college, and pay for that college, actually. You know what I'm saying? And uh, of course the parents pay for the first child, the oldest one and stuff and...But then once the oldest one graduate and, you know, and get a job or something like that, they all pitch in to help their other brother maybe go to college. Education is very important. Like...uh, and...with education is like uh, food and water to us. So...

(00:30:41)

JOHNSON: What uh, is there a preference to the type of education?

HETTINI: Yeah...uh, college degree, you know, sciences is usually--and uh, doctors. Usually doctors, engineers, lawyers, that kind of thing. Dentists.

JOHNSON: Now if there were uh, something that you would frown down upon, say 31:00your son or daughter came home and wanted to study a certain subject, what subject would that be that would be less approving than, than say them wanting to go to medical school?

HETTINI: Well, it's, you know, things maybe like uh, you know, um music or things like philosophy or something like that. I would not, I would not choose for my children, you know, what they want to study, but I would, I would definitely try to influence them from the very beginning. Try to help them, like, find a career. But then, you know...I mean...my parents, you know, they suggest that I go to dentistry school and stuff like that, you know. But I didn't. You know. I chose my own career or me, you know. And it worked out just fine. You know. But as long as it's something that is practical. Can, you know, 32:00it can, you know, use it to earn a living or livelihood. You know, something that will, that will be a stepping to something that's better. You know. Because I've seen it like, a lot of people with degrees, like, yes, that's what they like. Philosophy or something else, but also the demand for it is limited so people have to think both logically and emotionally. Emotionally-wise, you know, by picking up what they want from college, you know. Whatever study, but they have to be practical and logical by assessing, actually, if they're going to be able to actually make a career and actually earn money from that degree they get.

JOHNSON: Okay. Uh, what religious traditions do you, do you practice and follow?

HETTINI: I'm a muslim. I'm a from the muslim faith.

JOHNSON: Okay, is that--how do you practice that here daily in...

HETTINI: It's five prayers a day. Uh, you know, just uh, there is a mosque which is equivalent to a church. And there's a, I think they meet in Bowling Green at 33:00Western Kentucky University, but in Nashville there's three mosques and there is Islamic school and uh...There is two celebrations. One's called the uh--what is it called? The...fast breaking of Eid. And the other is the pilgrimage Eid, or after the pilgrimage, sacrifice Eid.

JOHNSON: Is Ramadan one?

HETTINI: Ramadan is the fasting month, and there is Eid after it. It's called usually, another term, "the small one." Celebration. And there is the bigger one is after the pilgrimage to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. And uh, those are the two main ones we celebrate. And there is also the birth of the profit Muhammad, but that's uh, we celebrate that to a lesser extent. You know, we recognize it, we have a day off, but the first two ones, you know, are the main ones we have.

JOHNSON: Is it pretty easy to be able to practice your holidays, or observe your holidays working within an American structure?

HETTINI: Yeah and it--Yeah. In the United States, yeah. I've been, you know, especially being self-employed I can dictate, you know, myself. But uh, we, you know--and once you talk to the employers, they people I work with, once I talk to them and I had to this, I had to do that, they were understanding, yeah. They'll facilitate, accommodate, you know. Your faith, and...will let you practice it.

JOHNSON: Are there any other um, either--difficulties, but other things that you're taking that maybe the average American does not take into consideration?

HETTINI: Uh, can you exemplify?

JOHNSON: Um, I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it. Oh, have you found any other...I guess difficulties just interacting with friends and people in America?

HETTINI: Well, recently no. I mean, I've been, I've been in the United States for 12 years, and

(tape cuts out)

(00:35:02)

HETTINI: I saw that twice.

JOHNSON: Uh, yeah. It's uh, side b. And we're continuing our interview with Erfan Hettini. It is September 23rd, 1998. And I was trying to um, ask you questions about um--your of the Islamic faith...

HETTINI: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: So I was doing it quite in articulately. (laughs) I guess what I'm really just trying to ask is, have you run into any obstacles or any, any difficulties practicing your, your faith while you've lived in America?

HETTINI: Uh, actually...no. Except when it's fast month when I'm fasting, but everybody else is eating. That kind makes it kind of tempting. But, actually no. It just kind of, it's a process of adjustment. You can adjust whatever you want. You know. Wherever you are if you have Islamic faith, so...

JOHNSON: I guess I'm not, I'm not implying there aren't, there isn't a, a significant um, Muslim community in America...

HETTINI: Oh yeah.

JOHNSON: Or, but I just, on an every day level when um, on an every day level I would imagine that the majority of people you interact with are, are not Islamic, so...

HETTINI: Yeah, they're Christians, you know, mostly of course.

JOHNSON: So, maybe there wouldn't be such a tight knit community, or such a supportive community of...

HETTINI: Actually no. Actually a lot of my friends, you know, they're religious. They're Christians and they're religious, too. They're very religious just like I am, you know. But you know, we're, I mean--actually they support me and I support them, you know. It just...It goes back to the individual actually.

JOHNSON: Have you found a lot of common ground between...

HETTINI: Oh yeah.

JOHNSON: They two faiths?

HETTINI: Oh yeah, absolutely. It's, you know. Uh, it came from the same divine source, you know. So it's the same thing. Love your neighbor, you know. Love 37:00your family. That kind of thing. You know. And worship God, of course. You know. Don't love money, you know. That kind of thing. Don't get drunk. That kind of thing.

JOHNSON: Okay. So, so that would be an important aspect of your family life when you, when you do start a family?

HETTINI: Yeah. Oh yeah.

JOHNSON: What kind of traditions, um, mark certain parts of um, I guess the life process within the Islamic faith? Like, are there rituals or holidays or traditions around birth and...what are marriages like? What are...

HETTINI: Well marriage for the most part uh, there is no premarital sex between men and women. In Islamic society. But there is uh, something called an engagement, you know, when you like somebody you just go to their parents and see if you, like do you, be engaged, you know. Or if it works you get engaged for maybe a year. At which that time, you know, you study the other person and 38:00they study, you know, you to make sure that, you know, it will work out. After that you can proceed with marriage or you can break it off. But that would be considered the dating period. But also there is of course no sex, premarital sex or touching or, you know. Probably, yeah, hold hands, stuff like that. But nothing, you know, sexual. You know. Not even by Bill Clinton's standards, you know.

JOHNSON: (laughs) What about um, when you, after you're married and you have children um, what types of traditions or customs or...

HETTINI: Well, usually, see we usually like, for example, when they have first the marriage part, you know, the husband, the groom has to pay for everything. Usually. And he has to give his bride a whole set of gold, like earrings, 39:00everything. Uh, usually it's in a big hotel with, you know, with open buffet for everybody. And then he's got to give her something what we call in English "dowry." Or kind of like, it's a gift, you know. Kind of like give her money to buy new clothes for her and stuff and...And there is usually always, in marriage, in Islamic countries, or Islamic tradition, where the husband and the wife, they have to sign something called like a contract where, in case of a divorce the wife will get a set amount. You know what I'm saying? They'll be kind of like, prenups, you know. Something like that. You can call it like that. But that, they call it the "mu'ajjal," which means "the deferred." You know. And that just uh, of course if there is uh, any kind of adultery, you know, I mean 40:00(laughs) (indeterminable) that would be, you know uh, revoked. But uh, that's basically--and then uh, you know, everybody at the wedding party gives the groom and bride, you know, gifts and stuff, and...They usually go for, on a honeymoon for a whole month. Somewhere real nice and stuff. And, you know, and people, you know, when they have kids they have baby showers, of course. And, of course, kids are circumsised...in Muslim traditions. Uh, from the very young age. Maybe a year or year and a half. And uh, you know, there's baby showers, you know. Uh, there is of course just like when a, when a friend, woman delivers, you know, there is gifts and all that kind of stuff. And, and usually, you know, usually 41:00the babies, you know, they buy them like little gold keys with God's name on it or something like that, you know. Just little (indeterminable) stuff.

(00:41:03)

JOHNSON: Would you um, want to have a traditional wedding when you do get married?

HETTINI: Uh...yeah. I would. And, but I'll probably throw a twist in it, too, you know. Knowing me. I always to throw my own twist in things. And uh...

JOHNSON: Would you be married in the States or would you go...

HETTINI: Oh no, in the States.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HETTINI: You know, there is a lot of, there is a lot of muslims in the United States. And there's also a lot of Arab Americans in the United States, so...Uh, I don't have to go anywhere, you know.

JOHNSON: I just meant to be around family or, or...

HETTINI: Sure. Well my family's mostly, you know, here. My immediately family, you know, so...I probably, you know, it's going to be somebody from the United States.

JOHNSON: Okay. Well, I think um, I also wanted to ask you about, is there 42:00any...beyond religious or other customary traditions that you would like to someday pass on to your children or your grandchildren? Or are there any stories or tales that you remember as a child that, that you would, you would tell your children, and that you would want to pass on...as a tradition to them?

HETTINI: Well, I'll have to jog my memory a little bit for that. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HETTINI: You know, but...

JOHNSON: Nothing just pops into mind?

HETTINI: Well, don't, don't drive without a driver's license.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

HETTINI: (laughs) You know.

JOHNSON: But there's a whole story behind that. (laughs)

HETTINI: (laughs) Yeah, when you were a teenager. And when you do, try not to wreck the car. (laughs) You know.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HETTINI: And...(laughs)

JOHNSON: Personal experience, uh-huh?

HETTINI: Yeah, like three or four times, you know.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

HETTINI: (laughs) And uh...you know, and...that cost my dad a lot of money, you know.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

HETTINI: He had to keep on replacing cars, you know. And uh...that's one thing. 43:00The other thing, you know, just to...martial arts. You got to have, they got to know marital arts.

JOHNSON: That was important to you growing up?

HETTINI: Oh yeah. All my family's like, you know, my brother's boxer, the other's martial artist. You know, plus in the uh, you know, a lot of, I guess in the Arab tradition, really we emphasized like sports. Especially like martial arts because of the flexibility and stuff. It's very famous. We're all like Bruce Lee nuts, stuff like that.

JOHNSON: (laughs) Okay, that's great. Is there anything you'd like to add or, or that we haven't talked about that you would like...

HETTINI: Well, I like my kids maybe to uh, you know, I like, you know, whenever I have kids I'll have them, I'll like them to be involved with the religion from the very beginning. Which I was, but then, I wasn't to that extent, you know what I'm saying? And just recently I've been getting back in touch uh, with it. 44:00But since, you know, you start kids at a very young age, I'd like maybe to put them in an Islamic school. From very beginning. Especially in the United States where, you know, the uh, Muslims are not of course a majority, so to, for us to keep that tradition and to teach them, you know, to be close to the religion will be a little bit more challenging than overseas where every, you know, in an Islamic country where everybody, mostly, a lot of people are Muslims. And you know, things are, people pick, you know, kids pick up things much easier. But here you have to really, it's going to be a little challenging. But it could be done. You know. And uh, I just like kids to be, you know, uh...nice kids and, you know, hopefully be neat and clean and just teach them all, you know, what's 45:00a good, what makes up a good family. You know.

JOHNSON: And what makes up a good family?

HETTINI: Well uh, first the, you know, the husband the wife they have to be in total harmony. That's one thing. And uh, that usually, nothing stimulates harmony in the family more than religion. To be, to be on the same sheet of music, or the same level, you know, faith. And uh, I think that's the most important thing in a family. And to treat each other, you know, from the very beginning with respect. And uh, and the kids will pick up on that and they'll, you know, and they'll treat their sisters or whoever, you know, other kids with the same values. And they uh...and uh...to be always love each other, you know what I'm saying? That's, that's what keeps a family together. And for the parents to monitor the kids. You know, they have to monitor the kids not to give 46:00up or let go...And uh, pretext that it's freedom or individual freedom or something. Because uh, freedom is a double sword, you know. It's good in, in it's own parameters, you know. But once it over extends those parameters it can become a very dangerous thing.

JOHNSON: Alright.

HETTINI: You know. Kids get into drugs and all kinds of trouble. When they think they have the freedom to do anything they want.

JOHNSON: Well I don't have anymore questions, was there anything else you wanted to add or discuss?

HETTINI: Yeah, how's my hair look?

JOHNSON: Your hair looks great. (laughs)

HETTINI: (laughs)

JOHNSON: Well I thank you for your time, Erfan.

HETTINI: Oh, you're welcome! I missed cup of coffee from Barnes & Nobles.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

(00:46:36)