Oral History Interview with Johnston A.K. Njoku & Nnewnata Njoku

LUANN JOHNSON: And this is LuAnn Johnson and I am interviewing Jack Njoku and Nina Njoku in their home. Uh, for the Bowling Green Immigrant Oral History Project. And I just wanted to get started by thanking you for, for letting me come here...and interviewing in your home. And I just want you start by um, sharing with me where you're originally from. And...

JOHNSTON A.K. NJOKU: Go ahead.

JOHNSON: Where are you from, Nina?

NNEWNATA NJOKU: My name is Nina Njoku, I'm from Nigeria.

JOHNSON: And, what part of Nigeria?

N. NJOKU: Eastern Nigeria.

JOHNSON: Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and...

N. NJOKU: Oh...I was born in (indeterminable). Then uh, I moved to Enugu. That's where I grew up. I went to school there. I was living with my sisters. And my 1:00senior sister. I went to school there...then after that I went to, I came back to (indeterminable) where I went to my (indeterminable) school. And after that I went back to--I went to teacher's training college. I went to (indeterminable) for women's training college.

JOHNSON: Okay. How old were you when you went to college?

N. NJOKU: Oh...oh...

LJ Were you a teenager still or were you...

N. NJOKU: Yeah. Small. I was um...21, yeah. I think I was 21. And when I went to 2:00(indeterminable), when I went to teacher training college.

JOHNSON: Okay. Now are these uh, big--are they cities that you grew up in? Or...

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: What were--

N. NJOKU: They're cities.

JOHNSON: What were they like?

N. NJOKU: Yeah, Enugu is a big city.

J. NJOKU: Bigger than Bowling Green.

JOHNSON: Bigger than Bowling Green, yeah. (laughs)

J. NJOKU: A lot bigger.

JOHNSON: Okay, and was, and before you lived...where you lived before that, was that also a city? Or did you grow up urban, in an urban environment?

N. NJOKU: Uh...

(J. NJOKU and N. NJOKU converse in a different language)

J. NJOKU: Enugu had the (indeterminable), the bus transit.

JOHNSON: It was a very large (laughs) community.

J. NJOKU: Big train station.

N. NJOKU: Big city.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Was it different than, like, I guess comparable to Bowling Green, which is...

N. NJOKU: Oh, lot, lot...

JOHNSON: Yeah...So how did you um, when did you first come to America?

N. NJOKU: 1983--1984. January 1984.

JOHNSON: Under what circumstances did you come?

N. NJOKU: To join my husband.

JOHNSON: Yeah?

N. NJOKU: Yeah. (laughs)

JOHNSON: So--did you--are you both from the same area?

N. NJOKU: Yeah. Basically.

JOHNSON: When did you--where did you meet? How did you meet?

J. NJOKU: It's difficult to say when we met because it was same village. You can't remember when you met, but you just know that you met. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Did you always, do people pretty much know everyone in the, in the village?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Even though it's a very big...

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. We're about 30,000 in my village.

JOHNSON: Wow.

J. NJOKU: What we call village.

JOHNSON: Now I think um, we have an idea here when we hear "village" we think of a small little rustic place.

J. NJOKU: Yeah, yeah.

JOHNSON: So can you describe it a little? Compared to...like a city in, in the United States. Is it very similar?

J. NJOKU: No, there is lot more concentration of people...in the village.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Um, you have about several miles just houses. Densely houses populated area. With farmlands surrounding it.

JOHNSON: So--

J. NJOKU: So it's like as big as probably this end of Bowling Green. But people just live close to uh, one another.

JOHNSON: What are the buildings like?

J. NJOKU: It depends. Depends. There is a glass, you know, house with just glasses, you know. And there are thatched houses. Um, our house is a two-story building with uh, corrugated iron sheets. Aluminum parts. Um, you can get all 5:00kinds of houses in the village. But that's where we call home.

(00:05:13)

JOHNSON: So it's, it's a very different, very different shapes and sizes, and...

J. NJOKU: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: And there's not a consistent pattern necessarily.

N. NJOKU: No, no.

J. NJOKU: Most of the, most are the thatched houses.

JOHNSON: Okay. Are they one story, or...

N. NJOKU: No.

J. NJOKU: No.

N. NJOKU: Some will have, like one story, you know. Build their own house like one story, two stories. It just depends the way you want to...

JOHNSON: And are they really close, they're really close to one another?

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh.

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Are there, what's the yards like? Are there...

J. NJOKU: Just little.

N. NJOKU: It's the same.

JOHNSON: Similar?

J. NJOKU: See this complex?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: It's just like one big complex. And then they have sections of it like that, you know. For instance this big complex, just as close as we live here. So as close as you are in my village, with one big arena out there. And there's streams surrounding you, about a mile or so.

JOHNSON: Okay. So there is an arena in the middle?

J. NJOKU: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: Is it planned out? Is it--like I know where I grew everything was on a, kind of a grid system. There were streets, and...

J. NJOKU: Yeah, there's a structure there, though. There is. Uh, a household...with a family of five or so, there will be a compound. That compound can be as large as 50, 60 families.

JOHNSON: Mmm.

J. NJOKU: Then there is a hamlet. Embracing all the compounds within that section of the village. Then after that hamlet, you get to the entire village. And in my village there are four hamlets. I can give you the structure of these hamlets, the way they are structured. Uh, and you have uptown, downtown. No 7:00east, west. But uptown, downtown. And the land, you build your village around your landscape. There is a hamlet over the gulf. To go (indeterminable) (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs) Over the gulf is it?

J. NJOKU: Over the gulf. And that's down...town of the village, you have.

JOHNSON: Okay. The gulf, is that like a body of water, or it's just called...

J. NJOKU: No, no just big ditch.

N. NJOKU: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: Is it natural or was it manmade?

J. NJOKU: Natural, very natural.d

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: But now it's being affected by erosion.

JOHNSON: Mmmm. Is that...

J. NJOKU: Soil and um, water erosion.

N. NJOKU: Yeah, the terrain.

JOHNSON: Terrain? And it, is there a port nearby? Are you near water or near the ocean, or?

J. NJOKU: About sixty miles for the south, to get to the Atlantic Ocean. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs) Okay.

J. NJOKU: Or yeah, there's Atlantic Ocean from Arochukwu, flowing down to (indeterminable). So about, depending on how you go uh, from north, northeast kind of, you're going down to real Atlantic, the coast. Where slave trading 8:00really took place.

JOHNSON: Hmm. Now did um, what's the major industry? What do most people do for a living in the village?

J. NJOKU: Farming.

N. NJOKU: Farming.

JOHNSON: Farming?

J. NJOKU: And that is a primary occupation. Any other thing you're doing is just as a result of when you retire a farmer.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: When you retire from farming. As a matter of fact, people who are (indeterminable) the occupation. Because I still support my mom and my villagers to farm. You know, I buy a piece of land, they share and distribute them for farm work. If I go back, I have a portion to farm.

JOHNSON: Oh wow. So you could become a farmer at any point in time?

J. NJOKU: I still am. I did not learn to work hard here. I was a hard worker from home. (laughs)

JOHNSON: When did you start working on the farm. Just when you were small children?

N. NJOKU: Yeah. You know, sometimes when your parents are going to the farm, you like to go with them because it's fun. You go there, you eat, you enjoy yourself, you play, in the farm. Do all sorts of things. Help them cultivate. If that's what they're doing, you help them. So, as fast as you can, they will just tell you, "Oh, can you go fetch water from the stream?" You know, like river. Small, you know. You go there and do it. (indeterminable) is fun. You know, you see other kids walking around. You talk, you play, you go there. So you know...so it's fun.

JOHNSON: So where, while here we, more like we have one house and a huge area of land around it, and it's isolated and that's the farm--this is--everyone is a 10:00concentrated community and then you go out...

J. NJOKU: Everybody goes out to farm.

(00:10:01)

N. NJOKU: Everybody goes out. You know, you can go like uh, like if you're going to Oakland to farm, you walk to Oakland or to uh--let me say--Alverton. You go there, then after that you come back home.

JOHNSON: So it's that far--

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. (laughs)

N. NJOKU: Yeah, it is that far.

JOHNSON: How, how do you get around.

N. NJOKU: Your farm is not uh, behind your house, you know.

J. NJOKU: But as farm (indeterminable), there is this shift in cultivation. Some years, you have the farm like--

N. NJOKU: We do it like every seven years. You know like, they farm this place for this year. Then they'll leave it for seven years. They will come back to that place. You know, we do rotation. Shifting cultivation. So it's not, you do the same place today--this, year next year. To us, we believe that you can't go back there. Because the soil is not uh, rich anymore. So you have to leave it for seven years before you go back there. So we have a lot of land. A lot of, 11:00you know, a lot to...

JOHNSON: Waiting. It's healing.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. And as it stays, within the seven years it could go back to get all kinds of mushrooms. (laughs)

N. NJOKU: A lot of things.

J. NJOKU: Some fruit.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

N. NJOKU: You know to leave it fallow for a long time, then you go back there--

JOHNSON: It grows over?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: It grows over with things.

N. NJOKU: Yeah. So that's how we do our...

JOHNSON: When did um, what crops did you grow primarily?

N. NJOKU: Um, we um--corn. Vegetables. Yams. Like here it's potatoes, but we don't, for us it's yams. Yams, vegetables, melons.

J. NJOKU: Pumpkins.

N. NJOKU: Pumpkins. A lot of--

J. NJOKU: Beans.

N. NJOKU: A lot of things.

J. NJOKU: (indeterminable)

N. NJOKU: Black eyed peas.

J. NJOKU: Things that you've never seen.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: All kinds of vegetables.

N. NJOKU: We have a lot of things. It just depends.

J. NJOKU: All kinds of things.

N. NJOKU: Peppers...a lot of things.

JOHNSON: When you um, harvested, how is it distribute? Is it--

N. NJOKU: No, it's yours.

JOHNSON: Is it exported? It's all for the village?

N. NJOKU: No, it's yours.

JOHNSON: It's all yours?

N. NJOKU: Yeah. (laughs)

JOHNSON: And so, so you would use it. But would you sell it?

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh.

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Yeah. So how was--is that--is there a marketplace for then?

N. NJOKU: Yeah. You know like they have--

J. NJOKU: Farmers market.

N. NJOKU: Farmers market here. It's the same thing. We have that, too.

J. NJOKU: We have daily markets.

N. NJOKU: We have daily markets.

J. NJOKU: You have markets every evening. And you buy fresh fruits from people.

N. NJOKU: Like we don't preserve food. Like here, you put preservatives. We don't. Everything is fresh.

JOHNSON: Year round?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh.

JOHNSON: Is there, are there any methods that you keep--you don't need to keep it then. You don't need to dry it or can it or anything...

N. NJOKU: The only ones we dry, you know, like uh...

J. NJOKU: Melon.

N. NJOKU: Melon. We keep that all the time.

J. NJOKU: Like you would dry tobacco.

N. NJOKU: We dry it outside, you know.

JOHNSON: You cut it into pieces and dry it, or...

N. NJOKU: We use the seed, the melon seed. So that, we dry that one. Then we dry uh, corn. You know, like you people put it outside. Hang it uh, outside. With 13:00us, we dry it, too. We hang it in the house. Then after maybe one week, then we store them.

JOHNSON: Okay.

N. NJOKU: We do (indeterminable). So that we use the same seed to plant next year.

JOHNSON: Okay.

N. NJOKU: That's what we do.

J. NJOKU: But a very--but a large bulk of it is consumed. You come back from the farm, you sell what you have and buy what you don't have.

JOHNSON: Okay.

N. NJOKU: Sometimes you don't feel like selling. You give it out, you know, you give to your relatives. Send some to people--your, your family. It just depends.

JOHNSON: So, so in the whole village--or, primarily everyone farms?

N. NJOKU: Yes.

JOHNSON: So, so no one would go off to a factory or work, or go off an--

N. NJOKU: No. No.

JOHNSON: Do any other--

N. NJOKU: Not that we don't have uh, stores, you know. Like uh, grocery stores. Some people, if you want to--but we don't use it for vegetables, all that. You sell like uh, toilet papers or, you know.

JOHNSON: Okay.

N. NJOKU: A lot of things that--not for food. If you want you can sell what you want. You know you can, if you want to. It's just up to you.

J. NJOKU: Even people who have poultry farms...um--block industries. Where you mold blocks for building...

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Um, those who have all other kinds of business are still farmers.

JOHNSON: They're still farmers.

N. NJOKU: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Because they depend on, on farm.

JOHNSON: But they--

N. NJOKU: You don't just depend on--you know, like here, you go to the factory. No.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

N. NJOKU: There you have factory and also have at least a farm.

(00:15:02)

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: I often hear people talk about uh, gathering. Hunting and gathering. In my village, if you left farming, that is cultivation of yam and things around it, and depend on gathering, even (indeterminable), you are regarded as a lazy person. You have to farm.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: There's dignity of labor. Pride in, you know, that self sufficiency.

JOHNSON: Mhmm. So when you um--I just know we grew up around an attitude where we go and we buy. We consume. We go and we buy whatever we may want or, or desire. And so, did you have malls? Were there--

J. NJOKU: Huh-uh.

JOHNSON: If you needed to buy um, something to fix the house with, was it more of a trade system? Or did you--

N. NJOKU: No.

JOHNSON: Did you have a, a...

J. NJOKU: You just drive out.

N. NJOKU: You drive out and buy it.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

N. NJOKU: You know we have, what's it called...market. Anyways, like mall. We can call it mall here. We have something like market. Like uh...from here to 16:00Campbell Lane, Walmart is. It's just market. You know like mall.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

N. NJOKU: You go there, you buy what you want, you go back home.

JOHNSON: And is it a structure? Is it a building?

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. Very many structures. There are daily markets. There are evening markets. and there are four-day markets.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: So after four days, there's one day that nobody goes to work. You know, it's just a sacred day. And people go get their (indeterminable)--that big market and sell. And when we say "village," we really mean village. There are surrounding towns. Let me give you a closer example. Have you been to Oakland before? As a matter of fact, there are so many villages just built. At Smith Grove, you say, village.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Um, Scottsville is a village. So all these villages, all these little, small counties around here will depend on Bowling Green. So do villages in some 17:00places in Nigeria, depend on major towns. And headquarters of their clans. Because if you left one village, there are 25 villages in my clan, (indeterminable) clan.

JOHNSON: Oh, okay.

J. NJOKU: And then, all those there's five of them would make up one autonomous community. So within each autonomous community there is a bigger town where you could go there and shop. You know, so there are towns, you know. And you could drive out and get everything you want.

JOHNSON: And you have kinship connections there, too then at these others?

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. Oh yes. And the kinship system is more complex. It's sort of--you can't understand it. Um, there is matrilineal. Matrilineal system and patrilineal system. I can't marry my, anybody that is from my matrilineal side. 18:00But I may marry somebody from my patrilineal side. (door opening and closing) (indeterminable) But I might have sisters and brothers in all the 25 villages.

JOHNSON: Okay. Yes, the family structures can be very different from, from in America.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. Mhmm.

JOHNSON: Will you talk a little bit about that? Like how, what side of the family did you grow up in?

J. NJOKU: (indeterminable) I mean my father married more than 20 wives. And I grew up through, I lived through 13 of them that I can remember. There was never a time I didn't have three mothers.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: You know, what we'd call step-mothers.

N. NJOKU: Not that three of them were living together. Not that. You know like, you marry then you divorce this one, marry this one. That what's, that what he meant. (door opening and closing) It's not that 20 of them are in the same house.

J. NJOKU: There was never a time that we didn't have at least three.

N. NJOKU: No. You know like three...

J. NJOKU: Maximum would be three of them...

JOHNSON: There would be, so usually just three? At once--in the house at one 19:00time, but..

J. NJOKU: Then this dad had three. Then that's mom. They are, that's after whom she's named. And one younger one. At that particular time before the father died. So three maybe (laughs) at least a good number.

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: But the divorce then would, so divorce was something that did happen?

J. NJOKU: Divorce was different from the way you see it here.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Marriage is contract that you don't enter lightly. You marry into a family. You may cut it off, to a few, but we still regard uh, they'll still regard you as my wife. Especially if there is a sibling there.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: If you have a child out of the marriage, if you die--if I were married to you, I would come because of my...

N. NJOKU: Kids.

J. NJOKU: Child. I'd do everything a husband could do regardless of you are--

JOHNSON: Oh, I see.

(00:20:11)

J. NJOKU: Yeah, so you can have five husbands. (door opening and closing) (indeterminable)

JOHNSON: You're still connected.

J. NJOKU: Yes. Especially if there is a child.

JOHNSON: So, so is there some--what is the attitude towards breaking off those, those unions and going off and marrying again?

J. NJOKU: If you're not being treated well...

JOHNSON: Hmm?

J. NJOKU: If you're not being treated well, you can call the marriage off. If people see that it wouldn't work, you can go your separate ways. But somehow, the connection is still there. Once married, you're married.

JOHNSON: So, so there's not that sense of guilt that we...

J. NJOKU: No, go to (indeterminable)

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: ...who owns what.

JOHNSON: (indeterminable)

J. NJOKU: No, no. No, no.

JOHNSON: Very, very ugly. Okay. So people kind of have a, have a chance to grow and decide that they want to, to move, to move on to this other part of their life, and they go ahead and go.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: And, is that equal for the woman to decide as well as the man? Or...

J. NJOKU: Yeah it is. As a matter of fact, if somebody is not treating my sister well, I have the right to go there and tell my sister to get out of bad place. 21:00(laughs) And my sister can. And for some reason, that's some kind of social control. You know I am there. You have to treat my sister well. And if you as a wife is not treating me well, my sister can come there and fight you. We just told this story the other of (indeterminable) going to (laughs) beat up my brother's wife. Because she was not, she said something she didn't like.

JOHNSON: Who said--

J. NJOKU: To my brother. My sister...

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Went to my senior brother's house, and fought that, his wife. Because she said something bad about us. You know.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Was it, like a verbal conflict? (door opening and closing) Or...

J. NJOKU: It could result in a physical fight.

N. NJOKU: It just depends.

JOHNSON: You don't just uh, overlook things like we do--

N. NJOKU: No, no.

JOHNSON: You confront things...

J. NJOKU: You marry into a family. It's not a contract just between the two of you. There are certain things you just can't do. Okay. If you, at least you remember my sister or my brother, have a greater family. I don't know how to explain it, but it's a different system. Uh, I don't know.

JOHNSON: Yeah. No, I think I, I think I understand um, what you're saying. So, is it difficult being, living in the States? Do you still feel a real close connection with that, that whole community back in Nigeria? How is it?

J. NJOKU: Uh, it is difficult living in the United States in a number of 23:00different ways. As an immigrant, I have done things I never would have done in Nigeria. It is not the position of a man to see a lady put to bed. It is sacred. Women think that we don't have the power to withstand blood. And that women, right from childhood above certain age, already know blood and can handle it. If we want blood we can go to war. But when it comes to things pertaining to childbirth, we stay away. But right here in the United States, I was made to be there with my--an amazing thing. The most wonderful thing on--it's incredible. The most amazing thing, to see your own child come to life. I'm not saying that I didn't like it, but in Nigeria I wouldn't do that. Alright. Here I did. (indeterminable) difficult. But look at me here, my wife was put to bed, and I'll go to the hospital to bring her home.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Where back home, it is the big village will go rejoice in bringing my baby home. So when you miss that, you feel it. You feel alone. Alone and lonely.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: I, we have a sense that it's that small family, that small nuclear experience...

J. NJOKU: We're feeling bad. Look at me having a child. I didn't start having them early. And they started coming. And I will go to that place. And I know when a lady has a child, she's not supposed to cook. And in a few days, someone else should give her a bath.

N. NJOKU: Yeah, do all that for her.

J. NJOKU: For her.

N. NJOKU: But her, the husband, you know, nobody else.

J. NJOKU: Yeah, I was forced to do it. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: You know, a very different environment.

JOHNSON: You didn't--the support system wasn't there.

J. NJOKU: No. It's, it's incredible (laughs) what you go through, you know.

JOHNSON: So, what would it be like to, to give birth in Nigeria? Where would you go?

N. NJOKU: I would go to the hospital.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: And you'd have months with the grandparents.

N. NJOKU: And my mom (clears throat) like my mom, my friends, my grandparents, you know all that. A lot of people would be there in the hospital. Then after that, I would--if I want to stay I can stay there for two or three days. Then I, when I'm coming home--like my husband wouldn't be there.

(00:25:17)

J. NJOKU: They'll come and tell me...

N. NJOKU: You know, they will come and tell. Even though you, he, you know, he will know, he will be so scared, all that.

J. NJOKU: And excited.

N. NJOKU: Excited. So they would, "Oh." Uh, "You have a baby girl." Or, "You have a baby boy now." All that. Then he will come. With his friends. All that.

J. NJOKU: And throw big party...

N. NJOKU: You know.

JOHNSON: To the hospital or to, or at home?

J. NJOKU: From hospital to--

N. NJOKU: From hospital to home, you know.

JOHNSON: It's a parade back?

J. NJOKU: Oh yes.

N. NJOKU: Yeah! People will be coming there to see you. Then when you come--when you're home, people will be there. They will cook for--I mean, a lot of people, your friends will bring food, all that. You won't even cook. You're not even supposed to touch anything to cook. Someone is there to give you a shower a night, you know. Take care of you. Do everything for you. In the morning they will come back. Either my mom or his mom will be there. Maybe will live with us 26:00three, four months. It just depends.

J. NJOKU: Or my sister come, too.

N. NJOKU: Or you know, anybody can be there with us. Even though when you are living--even when you are, like in Nigeria, if we're in Nigeria, someone will, people will live with us. You know, taking care of the kids, taking care of the house. But here...

J. NJOKU: We miss that.

N. NJOKU: You know, we miss a lot of that.

JOHNSON: What is the belief behind, while you're, you're--right before um, childbirth you're not to touch food. Is there, what's the belief?

N. NJOKU: It's not, I don't think it's--

J. NJOKU: No, it's not that she don't touch food.

JOHNSON: Because you are, too--you're...

N. NJOKU: No. It's not a belief. It's just um...

J. NJOKU: It is a custom. It's not that you wouldn't touch food. You might, we don't have anywhere to do it how you're supposed to do it.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: But it's that kind of community spirit.

JOHNSON: It's to support you?

J. NJOKU: Yes.

JOHNSON: It's not, it's not because there's any taboo associated with it?

N. NJOKU: No, no, no.

JOHNSON: And would the hospital be similar to ours? Like, where--

N. NJOKU: It depends.

JOHNSON: --they have very strict visiting hours, or things like that?

J. NJOKU: There are visiting hours, which are strict.

N. NJOKU: There are visiting hours there.

JOHNSON: So it's not, so it wouldn't be that people would visit you day and night. It would be certain times of the day?

N. NJOKU: No, no. You know, you have--

J. NJOKU: There are visiting--special hours.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: And if you don't have anybody visiting you, you are so lonely. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Are the rooms similar ago how they would be--

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Oh yeah.

JOHNSON: The whole medical smell and everything?

N. NJOKU: Everything is the same, yeah.

J. NJOKU: Depending on where you are.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

N. NJOKU: A lot of times you have the private hospital. If you want to deliver 28:00there, you go to private hospital. You have your own private room. Just like here.

J. NJOKU: If you can afford it, you have doctors that have great clinics. Better than the general hospital. And the thing about hospitals in Nigeria, is that what you call "general hospital," you can go there...

N. NJOKU: It's public health.

J. NJOKU: And get treatment. And get just one bill. You don't get another bill from the pediatrician.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: And that bill from OBG, and that bill from...(indeterminable). And another one from accounting agency. Then one from the hospital. No. It's, when you go there and take care of one business, it's just government hospital.

JOHNSON: Okay. Are there different--

J. NJOKU: That may be--

JOHNSON: Trends in how, in like say, childbirth? Is it natural or, or are there like...

N. NJOKU: It's natural. Even, what it is, in Nigeria--not only in Nigeria. People, if you want to, that--a lot of people like natural childbirth.

J. NJOKU: But it's something that people don't really understand. Quite often. 29:00Nigeria, depending on where you are, there are places in Nigeria where you will be, and you're in a better environment than here. But if I fly you to (indeterminable), or Port Harcourt, you think you're in suburban--rich suburban uh, Detroit where (indeterminable) lives. (laughs) Or somewhere in San Francisco. You'll not believe that you're there. Or go to the (indeterminable) camps. They are more equipped than hospitals here. It just depends on where you live and your class.

JOHNSON: Mhmm. So how are classes divided up in the village? As far as um, economic class.

J. NJOKU: In the village?

JOHNSON: Yeah, in your village. Are there...

J. NJOKU: (laughs) In the village, you know, we have this saying, (speaks in a Nigerian language). Alright. Which means, I think the closest...the closest 30:00sense of that word is that, "Nobody's above the law." Okay? In that sense, everybody is equal. You have a right to say when we are having a general meeting. But there are classes. Subtle classes. Those who own land. (indeterminable) They are aristocrats. They have land. As a matter of fact, people marry into them just because they have land. There are people who are wealthy. Who have control over what they're doing. (laughs) And there are people who, by achievement, by taking titles, is (indeterminable). That is the highest, second-to-they-highest title you get. Alright? That's class. There are age grades. Named from when you are about 21 until you are 55, there are names for age grades. When you see somebody older than you (phone rings) (indeterminable).

(00:31:07)

JOHNSON: I'll pause

J. NJOKU: Yeah, I was saying about class, so there are age grades. Um, divided according to age. And if you see anybody above you by one age, you should give them respect. But it's classed by um....wealth. You know. Um, beyond that, no. If within your age it don't matter who you are. However high you are, we are equal.

JOHNSON: Okay. So um, your father held a high title? Is that--

J. NJOKU: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: And that has to do with owning land, or was that more of a--was that a social title?

J. NJOKU: Social titles.

JOHNSON: What, what does it mean? What was it?

J. NJOKU: The (indeterminable) is the heart of the land. They are the people who decide what happens. They have wealth, kind of. You have to have uh, completed a 32:00lot to belong to that category. You know, it's like Fortune 500.

JOHNSON: Okay, so you--

J. NJOKU: That kind of thing.

JOHNSON: He's very successful in his, his farming or his business that he--

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh. Business in particular.

JOHNSON: And um, then what--they just, they would make decisions for the village? It was more, it was uh...

J. NJOKU: His opinion would be...

JOHNSON: Valued?

J. NJOKU: Yes.

JOHNSON: Oh okay. So, it wasn't necessarily like a higher, like a uh...governing body?

J. NJOKU: No.

JOHNSON: It was...

J. NJOKU: Governing body would be selected according to your age grade. (door opening and closing)

JOHNSON: Okay. Well what did your father--your father was a farmer as well. I know you said...

J. NJOKU: My father was a big, my father was an aristocrat.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: His family, matrilineal side owned land. And so in that respect, he 33:00was an aristocrat. Because their rich. Plus he was a native doctor. That's the closest I can say here. He was (indeterminable). A prophet, seer. Healer, diviner. All put together. And he was good at it. That's why we lived outside of the village and were very successful. That's why he was able to marry as many wives as he wanted. Some would live in the village, others would live with us in the township. You know. It was, it was (indeterminable).

JOHNSON: How did you um, how did you take on a job like being a native doctor? Is it something you learn from...

J. NJOKU: You are either born into it...as a matter of fact, in Igbo uh, cosmology...the god and the (indeterminable), the divinities, are divided and named. The god of wisdom, of divination, Agwu is his name. We are called the Agwu people. People of that god. You know, so it is, it's our inheritance. God chose that inheritance for us. So we are divias. Everybody will know us as that. 34:00And then are people who just become interested in it, and kind of by initiation become divias. But all of us who were born there will be called certain kind of divia. When you go through the process and get your eyes open so that you can see things, that ordinary eyes uh, you know, wouldn't see, then you're becoming a divia.

JOHNSON: What is the term? Deviant?

J. NJOKU: D-i-v-i-a.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: You could call it Araugor. A-r, a-u, g-o-r. I think. Mhmm.

JOHNSON: So your father was born into it? So...

J. NJOKU: Yeah, we are people of the Agwu family. Or the Agwu clan, or Agwa compound.

JOHNSON: Did you, you were raised with um--what, what belief systems were you raised in?

(00:35:05)

(tape cuts out)

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: We have uh, many kinds of belief system. There is, real belief in god. We do believe in god. We have superstitions, the inform and guide the things we do. That account for our rituals and customs. By (indeterminable), we are Christians. And so we have Christianity as part of our belief system. You know. There's the believe in--the belief in god. There are superstitions. And there is this Christian uh, religion that has brought it's own belief. Deep down us...god 36:00for us is (indeterminable). You know, mother for the god.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: So is...so there's no conflict. There's no...

J. NJOKU: As far as I'm concerned, no.

JOHNSON: Yeah. How have you found it here? Is there a different attitude toward um, religion here than, than when you practiced religion when you were in Nigeria.

J. NJOKU: I think so. I think there is a lot of difference. As a matter of fact, I do think that we should bring missionaries from Nigeria to come and re-Christionize America.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: Because we believe in justice, love. God of love. Okay, we worship with devotion and we mean it. If you do it and...you don't do it, practice it, 37:00you're just speaking it, villagers will sing about you. (laughs) If you go to church, but you don't attend prayers. Or you attend prayers and you're still doing things that Christians are not supposed to do. I mean everybody knows everyone else. If you profess that you're a Christian, you should act like one so that people will know you're a Christian. And there are Christians that do that, you know.

JOHNSON: Mhmm. Are there, in the villages, is it primarily Christian?

J. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Everyone goes to church, and...

J. NJOKU: Pretty much so. But you still practice your own traditional religion and belief.

JOHNSON: So you, you can have that community--attend the church, but also at home have um...

J. NJOKU: Yes.

JOHNSON: The other. Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes.

JOHNSON: And there's not, it's never seen as a conflict?

J. NJOKU: I don't see anything wrong with that. For instance, I can still go to 38:00church, and after Easter Sunrise, okay, go home and join my people for the harvest. Or whatever ceremony there is we're doing. Or some time in June, the church will have it's own, maybe evangelism. And then we're out there recruiting people for the church. And then the next week there is big new year festival. Okay, and part of that new year festival is to go and visit your grandmother's burial place. Okay. Or your grandfather's burial place. And then perform some kind of traditional ritual. And people call that uh...paganism. No! I see no conflict in it. They're our saints. It's like going to St. Patrick's, something like that you know. We consider them saints.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: So I don't see any contradiction whatsoever.

JOHNSON: Okay. So there's um...I just lost...

J. NJOKU: In certain respects--for instance, a greater number of people will still go for a hunt...to...capture a live deer. And sacrifice it to the god of 39:00thunder, so it can go and have a farm without problem. The church would oppose to that. Church would pray..for that to happen. So there is--but it takes a long time. Don't call them stupid. But we are saying, this is us praying for rain in their particular way. You are praying for rain in your particular way. Farmers still have almanacs here. To guide them, some of them. And the church has it's own. I don't, I just don't see the contradiction.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: The big thing is that if you're a Christian in Nigeria...

N. NJOKU: You are a Christian.

J. NJOKU: You are a Christian. You go to church, you go to bible study. You love 40:00your god. You go to school. You preach. You worship. There is no division between religion, the way I know it in Nigeria. And government. There is no strict division between religion and education. You know. I think the fear here is because of the European experience (car honking) where kings and bishops owned everything. And government (knocking) wants to get away from that.

(00:40:25)

(talking in the background)

JOHNSON: So that--there weren't as many--like here we have (door opening and closing) all these different denominations of different churches--

N. NJOKU: No, we do have that.

JOHNSON: You have that?

N. NJOKU: Yeah, we have Assemblies of God, we have...um...gosh, a lot of churches. We have a lot...

J. NJOKU: There are more churches...

N. NJOKU: More churches in Nigeria.

J. NJOKU: ...in my village than in Bowling Green.

JOHNSON: Hmm.

J. NJOKU: Jehova's Witness, Assemblies of God, Presbyterian, Unitarian uh, Church of Christ. Every little hamlet or so has about two churches. (laughs)

N. NJOKU: Yeah, we have a lot of churches. Just like here.

J. NJOKU: (indeterminable) There's all kinds of churches. (indeterminable)

JOHNSON: What is it?

J. NJOKU: There's one church that is called "people who just believe in god."

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh. Um...voodoo kind of churches. You know. (indeterminable)

N. NJOKU: Yeah, we have all that.

J. NJOKU: Ah.

JOHNSON: Very diverse.

J. NJOKU: There people just worship.

N. NJOKU: Sometimes you go there, you know, you go to Nigeria, you go to a church in Nigeria. Like if you want to go to Methodist. It's the same. The Bible, everything--the hymns. Everything is the same. You come here, it's the--you know.

J. NJOKU: You go to Catholic churches--as a matter of fact--

N. NJOKU: Catholic churches.

J. NJOKU: In my village, we woke up with the big church tower, the big church 42:00tower that would ring.

N. NJOKU: The bell, you know?

J. NJOKU: At five o'clock.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: For prayer meeting.

N. NJOKU: That is time for prayer meeting. So people will wake, you know, a lot of people will go to...

J. NJOKU: While that bell is sounding, another one uphill is drumming. Their own church drum. Announcing time for their own prayer.

N. NJOKU: Prayer.

J. NJOKU: And one other person is up there preaching. Just opened, because that early, before you go to farm, they wanted to hear the word of god. They are preaching. And it just continues until...as you come down from farm, about four or five o'clock, you hear the church bell.

N. NJOKU: You hear it again.

J. NJOKU: Announcing choir practice or something. (laughs) (doors opening and closing)

JOHNSON: Right.

J. NJOKU: (laughs)

N. NJOKU: So, in the morning, like four--before four o'clock, (door opening and closing) (indeterminable) will ring the bell. It's time for prayer meeting.

J. NJOKU: Or guild.

N. NJOKU: You know, early in the morning--

J. NJOKU: Or women fellowships.

N. NJOKU: --because people will go to prayer before they will go to church or school.

J. NJOKU: Or farm.

N. NJOKU: Or farm, you know. So, that bell will wake you up. Then in evening, they will tell you it's four o'clock, it's time for prayer meeting, or...church meeting.

J. NJOKU: And you have, and you have class. Classes.

N. NJOKU: Whatever you're doing, you leave it, you go to that and...You know like here, they have Wednesday prayer meetings. They attend them.

JOHNSON: But you find the difference is that...you're, it's, you live it out differently?

J. NJOKU: Yeah people are--

JOHNSON: There.

J. NJOKU: Yeah, people are--they don't believe it. They don't practice what they're doing. You know, we just come to church and seat ourselves. Nobody cares. Church is church.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Well how have you, have you found a way to um...kind of acclimate to that? Or to at least accommodate or bridge that gap of--because that sounds like, that's something very important.

J. NJOKU: It is, it is difficult to do in the U.S. Accept--I mean it's just difficult.

N. NJOKU: You just accept. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: And that is because of the sense of community is different. Here, from 44:00sense of place and community in Nigeria. We are by ourselves here. There were are together. If I didn't see you at church. Or in prayer meeting this morning, I'll have you on my mind. When I come back I go looking for you. You know.

N. NJOKU: You know, how are you doing? Without even telling the, calling the person you know. But here you can't. So...

J. NJOKU: You're not ashamed to cry. You're not ashamed to say that you have difficulty. But here...People worship, looking at their clocks.

N. NJOKU: That's true. "Time for lunch."

JOHNSON: (laughs)

N. NJOKU: "Let's go, let's go." Church, too.

J. NJOKU: People don't sing. People don't really worship devotionally. You know, you sing and dance according to the power of your conviction. You go to a church service, come (indeterminable). Ooh! (indeterminable) And when people pray--do you know that public transportation have people praying in the...

(00:45:24)

N. NJOKU: You know like buses?

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

N. NJOKU: Like if you're using uh, Greyhound, if you're going somewhere, somebody's there preaching.

J. NJOKU: There's somebody there to pray and preach and...

N. NJOKU: Everybody will be so excited. Singing.

J. NJOKU: And they will sing as they travel on the train.

N. NJOKU: You don't even the person. The person will just come there, pray, sing...

JOHNSON: And it's all over?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Yes....It is hard to...get that kind of sense of fellowship. There is 46:00no way. I miss it. I can't have it. I know I can't.

JOHNSON: Yeah. When did you first come to the United Staes?

J. NJOKU: '83.

JOHNSON: And that was for...for school?

J. NJOKU: Mhmm. It was to get an advanced degree. And believe me, that was because they didn't have that program in Nigeria.

JOHNSON: Where did you study in Nigeria?

J. NJOKU: University of Nigeria. At Nsukka. And fortunately, it has Brit--American system. That university was established by Michigan State University. We have the same school color...

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: Same administrative buildings. So when I came to do my Master's at Michigan State, I was not lost. The same credit system. The same uh, kind of lectures. And the business school where I went, my head of department went there. So...I didn't have any, I just fitted in (indeterminable). What I missed was certain kind of...(sighs) it's culture shock. You know, there were certain things I just couldn't take.

N. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: What were the things that--

J. NJOKU: At the University of Nigeria, you can see students come out. Because we are in the university, I was turned around, and I kiss. At night, somewhere, you wouldn't see people standing openly in the streets and kissing. That's...something that they don't want to see. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Oh, in Nigeria?

J. NJOKU: No, you don't want to see. And you don't to hear somebody coming to a classroom and discussing boyfriend. "Yesterday my boyfriend"--I mean if you...(laughs)

N. NJOKU: That's your business.

J. NJOKU: But you talked about that in your home. If you want to talk about your husband, that's acceptable. But this is, it's like people just free. You know. And "I dated this man, I dated the other guy. My boyfriend." I mean...I was shocked. That people change girls like shoes. Or change guys like...(laughs) underwear.

JOHNSON: What was dating like in Nigeria when you started dating? Did you--yeah, 48:00I assume, did you date? Of course?

J. NJOKU: Yeah!

JOHNSON: When you were getting to know one another?

J. NJOKU: That's a private business. Nobody should know.

N. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: It was just, nobody...

J. NJOKU: But people would tell.

JOHNSON: People talk about it though?

N. NJOKU: Yeah!

J. NJOKU: People would talk that, well they have seen them.

N. NJOKU: They have seen them together.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: There's a difference between, "hello," and, "helloooo."

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: (indeterminable) they stopped just to say hi, hi. Waste a little more time on their greeting, then you know there's something going on.

N. NJOKU: There's something going on. (laughs) They wouldn't come out and, you know...

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: Those are the things that shocked me. You find a professor coming to class holding the wife by the hand, and they're coming to class. And uh...

JOHNSON: Did you find there were different attitudes toward education? Um...

J. NJOKU: Uh-huh, uh-huh. I found that also shocking that um, young kids are in school. Working and going to school. They're here, not because their parents are 49:00investing in them, but they are owing to go to school.

N. NJOKU: To go to school.

J. NJOKU: Nobody is helping, they're suffering. Doing two jobs to go to school. Hamburger in one hand, notebook in the other.

N. NJOKU: No time to sleep, you know, nothing. Nobody to ask for, about you if...

J. NJOKU: An attitude to study. I found that almost...incomprehensible. I also found it incomprehensible that you read twenty books in quarter. It's unrealistic.

JOHNSON: How did you um, how is that different? You didn't ready twenty books in, in one semester?

J. NJOKU: If I had twelve credits, it's twelve credits for, or 24 credits for a whole year.

N. NJOKU: For a whole year.

J. NJOKU: And you study the same subject, and you're tested at the end of the year.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: So you have one whole year.

JOHNSON: And here it's just much more...

(00:50:01)

J. NJOKU: You take twelve credits one quarter, and read twelve books, and dump them. (laughs)

N. NJOKU: Then sell them.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Attitude to education was...you know. People are being trained. Are not being educated.

N. NJOKU: And then way, you people started, it's all different from the way we do it in Nigeria. Here, you just glancing, glancing, "Oh, I'm reading for multiple choice."

J. NJOKU: I can go back and talk about things with my lecture, and I believe that a lecture has wisdom that should be trusted. I can discuss, I can be creative when I come to class.

N. NJOKU: In a hurry, in a hurry.

JOHNSON: Mhmm. How much will you be graded on then.

N. NJOKU: After that you take your books, "Oh, thank god I'm done." Go and sell them.

J. NJOKU: That's the part that I didn't quite like, you know. That I will rush 51:00over subjects and frameworks, and then dump them. The best thing I got was the seminar, the independent classes I took.

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. I guess I should finally get around to asking how you got to Bowling Green. And what you're doing in Bowling Green.

J. NJOKU: Uh...for me...I never know that I would be in Bowling Green. I did not plan it. A friend of mine who was going on sabbatical happened to see my name on the graduation list and called me, "Jack, did you graduate?" I said yes. "What are you doing this summer?" For the first time in my life don't know.

N. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: (laughs) "And did you apply for this position?" I said, "Which position?" The positions I applied for were Austin, Texas. Wesleyan University. And finally I said those positions, you know. How about this one, that one? Okay. I canceled my (indeterminable) something and submitted my application. And 52:00as soon as I finished and finished my dissertation, that same day I drove to Bowling Green and started a job. And then when I got here, I also interviewed for one year a visiting appointment. I interviewed for one of positions, almost go to Wesleyan, you know. And for some reason, my kids loved their schools here. My wife didn't quite like here then. But my kids loved their school. And um, I just wanted--I loved teaching. I could see the difference. I had taught at Michigan State. (indeterminable) community college. Taught at Indiana. And when 53:00I got here, I started teaching, I saw a yearning for knowledge in students' eyes. That kind of challenged me, you know. That was what actually got me. (indeterminable) teach me. And right down here you see a yearning for knowledge. Almost to a fault because they were just depending on you as a teacher.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: But that's what got me. And I saw teaching in Kentucky then almost as a ministry. And then I was planning to leave. I got to stay because students wrote, faculty wrote. They guy who was on sabbatical came back and I was flattered by the fact that even when they didn't have money, they found money to hire me.

JOHNSON: Hmm

J. NJOKU: So I stayed. And I said to myself, "This is as far south as I can go."

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: And I got naturalized here. And at first, I should be moving up and 54:00down. And so this is home. When people ask me, I tell them I'm from downtown Bowling Green with an accent.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

J. NJOKU: And that's, that's how I got here and decided to stay.

JOHNSON: And that was six years ago?

J. NJOKU: Mhmm.

JOHNSON: How about you--now you moved to Michigan when, when Nina--

J. NJOKU: We married in Nigeria.

JOHNSON: Did you come over first and then you, you came after?

N. NJOKU: Yeah, three months.

J. NJOKU: Three months after.

JOHNSON: So not a whole long time.

N. NJOKU: No.

J. NJOKU: Oh god. (laughs)

N. NJOKU: (laughs) Well...(laughs) Three months.

J. NJOKU: Thank god it was not more than three months.

JOHNSON: How was it for you? Um, moving over to the United States?

N. NJOKU: Oh...it was different, you know. Going to a different land. A different place, you don't even know the culture. It was....I couldn't believe it. You know like um...seeing the snow for the first time was a shock. It was too cold. You know, Michigan is always cold. Then people behaving, ugh, I couldn't believe it they way--you know like uh, in Nigeria you get up in the morning. You see your neighbors, "Good morning." But here, they don't even care.

J. NJOKU: And you talk.

N. NJOKU: You talk, you know. "How was your night?" Oh.

(00:55:34)

J. NJOKU: "What business do you have knowing about my night here?" (laughs)

N. NJOKU: Oh, it was difficult for me. Then you see how, you hear people talk about boyfriends, oh....This is uh...

J. NJOKU: And then I will answer this question for me, coming to the United States was an answered prayer. I came with great excitement. It was wonderful to 56:00have the opportunity and the fellowship to come do Master's in the United States of all places. You know, and I knew that this is a place where if you worked hard, you get it. So I told myself I would have my PhD before I go back. So I came excited, determined to work hard so...um...luckily I was in Michigan State and it wasn't quite different academically from where I graduated and taught. I taught at University of Nigeria before coming. So, coming to the United States was, wow, big.

JOHNSON: Hmm. No you already, did you have any problems with language barriers? Or did you speak--you spoke fluent English before you moved?

N. NJOKU: Yeah, English is our second language.

J. NJOKU: Yes.

N. NJOKU: In Nigeria.

JOHNSON: How old are you when you start learning English?

J. NJOKU: As soon as you went to elementary school or kindergarten.

N. NJOKU: Kindergarten.

J. NJOKU: And learn English English. (laughs) You learn English English.

N. NJOKU: Now people, when they--immediately after having their babies, they will start speaking, you know. To their kids. So a times they don't even know our language, you know.

J. NJOKU: And I was going to say actually, that it seems that English is the first language for so many people.

N. NJOKU: I know.

J. NJOKU: As a matter of fact, in some respect, educationally, English is a second language for my wife, before she can't read Igbo very well.

N. NJOKU: I can't my own language.

J. NJOKU: (laughs)

N. NJOKU: I cannot.

J. NJOKU: So from an education point of view...

JOHNSON: English is the first language?

N. NJOKU: You know...

JOHNSON: Well...wow. So were the children, were your children born in America?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: All of them here.

JOHNSON: All of them?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Do you--when you think about how you grew up in Nigeria and how...and how your children are growing up here, is there any--are any things that you...I don't know, would rather instill, or values that you had experienced as children, or experiences that you had as children that you would, that you regret they can't have? Or...

J. NJOKU: The only thing I regret they can't have is sense of peoplehood. Sense of grandmother there, grandmother that. And uncle this, and uncle that. And feel free to go out and just have fun. Get lost two miles away and someone would bring you back home. (laughs)

JOHNSON: Yeah. Do you have relatives around?

J. NJOKU: Yeah, occasionally we go. We travel to, we went to Houston where they 59:00met my, their aunts. So, people from my compound, my immediate compound, we're about ten. So once in a while we can get together. But it still lacks that kind of atmosphere. And that thing that I think they miss, is having enough time to be kids. They don't have enough time to be kids here. They are grown too fast.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Are there certain customs or traditions that you try to pass on?

J. NJOKU: Oh yes, but you don't learn custom, you do it. (laughs) You don't learn culture, you do it. I can tell you about festival, and you don't just go to festival to watch it, you go to festival to do it. So they know it. The closest they can go now is to teach them the language. They understand everything we say. My daughter speaks a little. But you have to go there...hang 60:00around others...and speak it. Hopefully when I get my Fulbright, I'll take them along and then they'll do it.

(01:00:02)

JOHNSON: So they, they understand--you speak uh, Igbo to them.

N. NJOKU: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Oh yes. It was a tough thing to do. I thought they would, I thought they would talk me away from doing it. I did. And now (indeterminable). They know our folk tales. They tell our--they know games. They sing our songs. In fact when they write, they draw ideas from those folk tales or stories that I tell them. And when their teachers read their essays, they think that their ideas are strikingly original. You know, and so they, they got that, I know. Um...what else we teach them?

N. NJOKU: (indeterminable)

J. NJOKU: Respect people

N. NJOKU: Respect people. The way they talk to people. Someone that is older than them. You know. It's not exactly the way the Americans...

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Teaching is better than get up...

N. NJOKU: Never call you by your name, you know.

J. NJOKU: No, no, no, no. And they will find it very difficult.

N. NJOKU: They will find it difficult. Because you are older than them. So they cannot...

J. NJOKU: Considering (indeterminable)...it will take a long time. (laughs)

JOHNSON: (laughs) It's very family.

N. NJOKU: Everybody's grandma, you know. They can't just see somebody that is, you know, an older lady...

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

N. NJOKU: And call the person her name.

J. NJOKU: And they know right here to say good morning. The lowest one would say good morning to everyone in this house...

N. NJOKU: So you can't just get up and leave.

J. NJOKU: Just walk out.

N. NJOKU: No.

JOHNSON: You have to interact.

N. NJOKU: We won't talk to them. The custom is, you say good morning to me before talking to me, so...

J. NJOKU: But our values will be um...church. Is very important. There is something higher than all of us. And that thing is to stop and think. They know 62:00we will just stop, take time and think. Mhmm.

JOHNSON: How--you have three children?

N. NJOKU: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: Only. (laughs)

JOHNSON: How old are they?

N. NJOKU: Our daughter will be 14 next month. Uh, our son just turned twelve. The baby's nine. Nine-years-old.

J. NJOKU: Yeah, I didn't mean for it, I didn't mean for it to be funny when I said "only."

JOHNSON: Only.

N. NJOKU: Yeah we have only, only three.

J. NJOKU: If we're home. As a matter of fact, there are family (indeterminable) still want her to

have...

N. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: Are you going to have more children?

N. NJOKU: No, no.

J. NJOKU: Not in the United States.

N. NJOKU: (laughs)

JOHNSON: Are you going to be staying? Or do you want to stay in Bowling Green? Or are you going to be...

N. NJOKU: We don't know yet.

J. NJOKU: I have told you that um...this place for me is as far south as I can 63:00go. And this for me is home. If my kids want to travel, my kids want to travel, they can go. But that's one thing I have told them, too. Sense of place. Sense of home. Because I am naturalized here, this is home. I won't stop them from moving.

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: But they should have a place--one, two of them were born in Michigan, so like other Americans will say, "I am from Michigan."

N. NJOKU: They would say they are from Michigan.

J. NJOKU: And the other one would say, "I'm a hoosier, I'm from Indiana." But from our own value system, you're from where your dad and mom are from. And if I naturalized here and become an American here, this is home. And as far as I'm concerned, if I move, if I were move, it'd just to go and come back.

JOHNSON: Okay.

J. NJOKU: I consider Bowling Green home. But I can't see me moving um...I don't know, it's difficult.

JOHNSON: Well, is there um...I want to kind of get a sense or give you the opportunity if you think about this interview as going into the archives, and being um, something that people can look back on, if there's any ideas or thoughts or stories or things that you'd like to share on the tape um...that you would like to leave um, with your children or their grandchildren or, or their grandchildren. Is there any stories or thoughts that you feel it would be important to document?

J. NJOKU: Um, not necessarily. Um...wherever you are, call it home. Wherever you are. Work as hard as--if that will be your last opportunity, to do it, you know. 65:00Um...move around. See people. Be part of the community. You know. (indeterminable) You know.

(01:05:12)

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: Be part of wherever you are. To be somebody, you have to come from somewhere. And wherever you come from should reflect in who you are. If you're living Bowling Green, if you're living my house...I want to, I want people to see you out there as somebody, as my ambassador, you know. Yeah. What is, what is Bowling Green about Bowling Green culture? (laughs) What do you carry with you as somebody from Bowling Green? As somebody from my house? Okay. I will tell them, "Remember the stories I have told you. Just remember those." And I know 66:00the stories I have told them, if you were to ask my kids um...And I will tell them, as black people, okay. As black people here in the United States--my kids, that we begin to trust people. And move beyond racism. Alright?

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: It didn't happen in my time, it may happen in their time. And they have uh, a role to play. That's why they're different. God is not stupid. To make us different. It is a contribution that black people will make. When that time comes. When America will give them the opportunity...to be first class citizens. There's a great contribution that black people can make, if they are 67:00given a sense of individual worth. Hopefully it will happen in my kids' time. They should remember what I told them before.

JOHNSON: What were some of your first experiences with the attitudes of racism in the United States? When you...

J. NJOKU: As a person?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: I hated the idea for someone to think that because I'm from Nigeria, I am superior to other blacks. Okay. In my village. If you're a rat you're a rat. Okay, it doesn't matter if you're a bush rat or a house rat or anywhere. (laughs) I am black. And if you mistake me for a Russian, you need your head examined. And if you think I'm superior to other blacks by, because we're 68:00here--I mean, I hate to, I hated to hear that in my class. You know, once people realize that you did well in an exam, but where he is different--I don't want to be different. You follow that?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

J. NJOKU: I just didn't want it. That was my experience. And uh...and I don't want anybody who is black to every come to a level of sophistication where they think that they are better than other black people. Other black folks. If you get so well educated that you can't make sense to black folks, you are dumb. Aright? And if...that time comes when people begin to realize the worth of the black, blacks here, then they will make part of black experience uh...they will make black experience part of our intellectual and cultural development. You know?

JOHNSON: Mhmm.

J. NJOKU: And when that time comes, we'll know that we are all blacks, and the 69:00black experience is American heritage.

JOHNSON: Do you feel you're better received in Bowling Green than when you first moved to Michigan? Or how--when you were received in Bowling Green, how welcomed did you feel?

J. NJOKU: Wherever I go--in fact I don't know whether that's the reason, I know that my home, ultimate home, ancestral home, where home is is my village at (indeterminable), and that the world is my territory. Wherever I go, I stay there and make it my territory. And do the best I can. When I was in Michigan, I established myself. When I was at Indiana I did the same thing. Here in Bowling Green I have done my best in the community. I have gotten into trouble with church folks because I wanted a pastor to live in our community. (laughs) I didn't want people to be coming from all over the place just to worship with us 70:00in the community. I wanted people to live in that place. I wanted a sense of--

(01:10:01)