Oral History Interview with Michele McCrary

BETSY BRINSON: . . . McCrary, M-c-C-r-a-r-y. The interview takes place in Lexington, Kentucky, and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Ah, Michelle, give me your full name, if you would, so I can get a voice level.

MICHELLE McCRARY: Okay. Uh, Michelle McCrary.

BRINSON: Do you have a middle name?

MCCRARY: Yeah, Olivia.

BRINSON: Olivia.

MCCRARY: Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Okay.

[Tape clicks off and on.]

BRINSON: Well thank you for agreeing to talk with me today. Um. . . why don’t we start--Tell me where and when you were born.

MCCRARY: I was born, uh, November 5th, 1950, in Louisville, Kentucky, at, ah, Red Cross Hospital.

BRINSON: Okay. And, ah, so you’ve lived in Kentucky all your life?

MCCRARY: All my life. Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Okay. Uh, tell me a little bit about your, um, what you know about your ancestors?

MCCRARY: Uh, on my—should have brought a picture to show you, I’ll have to show you later—um, on my mother’s side, which is—she was a Shively and she’s from, uh, a family of the Rowans of western Kentucky. That, ah, we have a history where they were brought as slaves from Virginia. And eventually settled in, ah, Owensboro, Kentucky that was called Yellow Banks at the time. So, uh, on her side, even though my mother was born in Pittsburgh, ah, Pennsylvania, um. Her mother was a teacher, until she got married, because she had to stop teaching when she got married—uh, and she, ah, her father was from, ah, the area around Owensboro. And they married, and, ah, they lived in Pittsburgh for a while, then settled in Louisville, Kentucky. But her side of the family, ah, has had a reunion, um--for this year will be the one hundred and seventh year, straight year, for the reunion of the Rowan family. My father’s family is from, ah, Centreville, Mississippi, which is near the Louisiana border, just up from Baton Rouge. And, ah, in fact we were down that way, ah, last Thanksgiving. I knew my great-grandparents, ah, from his mother’s side, and so I know a little bit about them, ah, not a lot. I know my grandmother and my grandfather, his parents went to Alcorn College, ah, in Mississippi—

BRINSON: How do you spell Al, Alcorn?

MCCRARY: Uh, A-L-C-O-R-N.

BRINSON: Okay, thank you.

MCCRARY: Um, and, um, his—her—my grandmother’s, um, uncles, ah, were fairly prominent. One taught school at Jackson State University in Jackson, Mich—ah, Mississippi. Uh, I know one was a doctor in Memphis and one was a pharmacist. Ah, Ross was her maiden name, and Hopkins was, ah, her father’s name, her name. And, ah, so I do know a little bit about that side of the family. I’d like to try to find out more, but. . .

BRINSON: Um, I wondered when you mentioned the name Shively—

MCCRARY: Mmm.

BRINSON: Which in Louisville is a big name.

MCCRARY: Yeah (laughs), right!

BRINSON: And a big area of town and whatnot. Is—do you know anything about the history there?

MCCRARY: Uh, I really don’t know—my, my grandfather, ah, Shively, they were raised near Owensboro. So I don’t know if there’s—what’s the relation is to that Shively. He, ah, obviously came from mixed parentage. Uh, I know—I believe his mother was full-blooded Native American. And, ah, a lot of people—in fact, when my mother was growing up said a lot of people thought he, he was white. And thought he was married to a black woman. (laughs) So, it could be something there, but, I don’t know of it.

BRINSON: Okay. Um, you grew up in Louisville?

MCCRARY: Yes, uh-huh.

BRINSON: And tell me a little about your, education there.

MCCRARY: Uh, I attended school, ah. . . I started out at Stephen Foster Elementary. I always went to integrated schools, it had just started at the time I was, ah, entering elementary school. And, so, I was technically in the district for Duvall, ah, but, um—which was an all-black. We still had a lot of all-black schools in the area at that time, but I went to Stephen Foster Elementary, Shawnee Junior High, and Male High School in Louisville.

BRINSON: Okay. And you graduated from--

MCCRARY: I graduated from Male in 1968 and I went to Eastern Kentucky University. Uh, I went there for a while and dropped out of school, had a son, and, eventually went back after ten years, uh, to graduate.

BRINSON: Okay. Um—tell me, you say that Stephen Foster was integrated?

MCCRARY: Yes.

BRINSON: Um, what did that—how integrated was it in terms of students, in terms of teachers?

MCCRARY: Um, I had black and white teachers—but, ah, the school was—fairly integrated. Uh, from what I remember, it was probably at least fifty-fifty; and it might even have been predominantly white. Uh, but it was at least close to that. Uh, I had white friends that, whose houses I visited, uh, in elementary school and junior high. So, it was fairly well-integrated, although pretty much the neighborhood was beginning to change, I would say—the neighborhood, that the school was in itself was probably predominantly black.

BRINSON: Had it been a, an all-white school before integration?

MCCRARY: It—it might have been. Uh, because I started, I guess, in 1955, I would assume, uh, I’m pretty sure, and that was the year that the schools, ah—

BRINSON: In what part of town is …

MCCRARY: In the West End, ah, right, ah—I live—our house was right by Chickasaw Park, and Southwest and Parkway. Can’t get any more to the west without going in the river, so-- Ah, the school was right down there.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: It‘s called Stephen Foster Academy now, it’s a, new school. (laughs)

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Um, you probably graduated before there was any of the bussing in Louisville? Is that correct?

MCCRARY: Ah, yes. Yes. Oh, at the time I was in high school, you could—if you lived in the city—you could go to any city high school you, you chose to. Ah, county still had to go by district and up through junior high, and elementary and junior you still were restricted by district. But, um, high school you could have your choice, uh, within the city limits.

BRINSON: Okay. What—what do you recall about those early years in terms of race relations in Louisville?

MCCRARY: Well, ah, I can’t—I don’t recall, personally, uh, uh a lot of problems until, probably, when everything happened across the United States in the sixties. Uh, in Louisville, when we would go downtown, we could always shop and try on things at Byck’s and Selman’s, the two big department stores. Some stores, I think, we may not have been able to get in, but I remember those two of the larger ones, the nice stores you could go to. I have …

BRINSON: Did you try on clothes?

MCCRARY: Um, I’m pretty sure we could, at Byck’s—I’m, I’m, I’m almost sure, at Byck’s. And, ah—

BRINSON: And Byck’s is spelled how?

MCCRARY: B-Y-C-K-S

BRINSON: Okay, right. Okay.

MCCRARY: And, ah, Selman’s, I think so—be—because-- it seems like I remember them making up makeup, you know, their own makeup where they made up shades for different people. So I’m thinkin’ they did, too. But, um, of course, I would go to Mississippi to visit family, up through, I think I was twelve years old the last time I went; where it was beginning to get more dangerous. Ah, but that’s probably where I saw--a lot of problems, where on the way down you had to be there by dark, or you—we stayed with family in Memphis, uh, halfway there; um, where you couldn’t use the restrooms, and things like that. That’s, that’s where I’d had more exposure to that, than in Louisville. Because I guess when I was younger, I really wasn’t going out anywhere, on my own.

BRINSON: Right.

MCCRARY: Now, of course, um, by the time I got to high school the Open Housing marches, and other things—then you can—then you know—when I was old enough to go to some places I realized there were still places in Louisville that maybe I couldn’t go to. Certain restaurants or something.

BRINSON: Uh, am I correct that you, um, attended the statewide rally in Frankfort in 1964?

MCCRARY: Yes, I was in, ah, junior high at the time and our parents took us out of school to attend the, March on Frankfort.

BRINSON: Um, were your parents active in Louisville in. . . ?

MCCRARY: Yeah, they were fairly active. Ah, I remember--I guess I might have been in high school by that time, where they would go into different—using people to go to different establishments to see if they could eat. And I know my parents, uh, for at least one or two times was a test couple, where they would go to see if they could get service, and, and were refused.

BRINSON: Tell me, um, your parents’ full names, if you would please?

MCCRARY: Um, my father might hate that, but it’s ah--well, P. M. McCrary, Jr., but it’s Pompeii Montez.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: And my mother is Julia Shively McCrary.

BRINSON: And—what—were they active in an organization, um, that was for Civil Rights?

MCCRARY: Um, I don’t know if they—they might have been members of the NAACP—I believe they were, because at the time. I know there was a neighborhood association, and they had membership in the NAACP, so probably through part of that. But I do remember, um, that they were a test couple.

BRINSON: What do you remember about the Frankfort rally? How--you would have been …?

MCCRARY: Probably about thirteen, at the time, something like that. Just—not a lot, just bits and pieces, you know, where was a--lots of people, you know, with—mostly with family, friends, um, I remember Dr. King. You know, couldn’t see much, you know. (laughs). But, ah, just seeing all the people and the signs and thinkin’ that, it looked like some of the things we’d seen on TV, you know, the other, other places.

BRINSON: Uh, did you have brothers and sisters?

MCCRARY: Yes, younger brothers. They were like, um, my sister’s five years younger than me and my sister—my brother’s six years. They weren’t—

BRINSON: Did they go with you to the Rally?

MCCRARY: I don’t—I’m, I’m almost sure that they didn’t, um—

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: I don’t remember them being there.

BRINSON: Um, do you remember any of the music?

MCCRARY: Well, you know, of course “We Shall Overcome, We Shall Not Be Moved.” Uh—um, “Before I’ll Be a Slave I’ll Be Buried In My Grave, and Go Home To My Lord and Be Free,” you know. So, ah--those were--some of the songs that I remember.

BRINSON: How did you travel to Frankfort to be there?

MCCRARY: I believe my parents and my grandparents, ah, took us.

BRINSON: In a car?

MCCRARY: In a car, yeah—I’m, I’m sure.

BRINSON: Did you travel in a bus?

MCCRARY: [Overlapping] I don’t think we went in a bus—I don’t remember being in a bu—I’m not really sure about that, but they had cars, so—I’m thinkin’ we went in a car.

BRINSON: So your grandparents went, too?

MCCRARY: Yeah.

BRINSON: And these were your mother’s …?

MCCRARY: My father’s, ah, parents. They lived, like, three doors from us, and—so we were all very close in here.

BRINSON: Were they active in, any other way that you know of?

MCCRARY: Um, no. I don’t remember—you know, I know they were members of the NAACP, and—um, but--I don’t remember them—I know they weren’t a test couple or anything. Um, but I think just active in the community as a whole, and supporting, if it was money, or whatever, they needed to do.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum..

[Tape clicks off and on.]

BRINSON: So, um, attending that rally, do you remember that it left you with any particular feelings, or?

MCCRARY: Well, I think, ah, feelings of being proud to see—you know, how many people came out to support it. And, um. . . just being a part of something that was happening all over the country, you know. That, you know, that what you saw on TV you know, you were now a part of the Movement, too, so to speak. So …

BRINSON: Right. I wonder if you remember a campaign in Louisville called the “Nothing New for Easter Campaign”?

MCCRARY: Ah, s--sort of, but not—I don’t know that I remember it specific enough to—um—

BRINSON: You don’t remember that?

MCCRARY: I remember it was like—downtown--uh, there were different marches, and, um--But I, I don’t remember personally if I was there.

BRINSON: Would your parents have said to you, um, we’re not going to buy any new Easter clothes this year?

MCCRARY: Probably.

BRINSON: . . . because of the boycott?

MCCRARY: Yes, I would say that they would’ve boycotted if it was going on. I know they wouldn’t have gone up to buy anything there at Easter. I think maybe the only stores that anybody would support would be, like Byck’s, that’d always been very involved in the Civil Rights Movement, and had been very open, and I remember them clearly, um, . . .

BRINSON: Okay. Um. . . So, tell me what you remember about the open housing effort in Louisville?

MCCRARY: Now, open housing, um, when that started, um, I was probably just entering high school. Um, . . . Some times, um, there were so—a couple churches, I remember, I think, Quinn Chapel was one, and I think it was one on Jefferson Street—but I--I think it was Reverend Hodges’ church is all I can think of—at the time. We would go—mostly it was a lot of meetings. For the most part, they used, ah, either some of the college students or the ones in the higher grades, like the seniors and juniors; I think they had been through different trainings. Um, I think, I belie—I remember attending maybe two actual marches, but for the most part it was mostly the older, they were a little bit older than us.

BRINSON: Mmm-hum.

MCCRARY: Uh, that went. I think they felt it was maybe too dangerous, or (laughs)—at some point.

BRINSON: At the marches, do you remember where there, ah, hecklers?

MCCRARY: Oh, definitely, oh there were hecklers. And, you know, ah, it was kind of—it was very frightening, because—you saw it in, I guess, still being in Kentucky and, and basically growing up in a, in an integrated system for the most part; uh, it was still surprising to see the venom from some people, you know. And, so—I know some—sometimes, we, ah,--one time, a friend of ours, we were looking--we thought we saw some people that went to our high school. You know, out there, kind of shouting at us; so you know, it was a little surprising. I think that—some of us really weren’t braced for it. Especially those of us that probably went through an integrated system, where we didn’t have a lot of trouble, you know. And--So I, I think that was the most surprising for me that it was—would be like I was in Mississippi. You know, I would expect that maybe in Mississippi but I wasn’t so prepared for it, ah, then.

BRINSON: Did any of your teachers, or principal, in high school or whoever ever suggest that, that this was either good or not-so-good for you to be in it?

MCCRARY: Uh, no, I don’t remember any—any of that. In fact, in high school, by the time I was—I think a junior and senior, um, Dr. King’s brother, Reverend A. D. King’s, daughter, attended high school with me.

BRINSON: Mmmm-hum.

MCCRARY: Um, Alveda. Uh, and, ah, actually she was—you know, the year he was, uh, murdered, ah, she was at Male High School at the time. So, um,-- But I don’t remember anything from the teachers or anything. We—at Male we had, uh, actually, some quite liberal teachers that probably took part in the hi—in the marches themselves.

BRINSON: Tell me about Alveda. First off, how do you spell her name?

MCCRARY: I believe it’s A-L-V-E-D-A.

BRINSON: Okay. And then—I’m asking you for spellings because when the transcriber …

MCCRARY: Ah, yeah.

BRINSON: …Types this up.

MCCRARY: Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s the way she spelled it. Just--I don’t know if she was any different from the rest of, you know. She was just a typical, friendly person. We didn’t—we weren’t best friends or anything, but we were always friendly, and cordial; and she was always nice. And—um—I’ve maybe seen her once since we left high school, ‘cause she—they moved, eventually, back to, uh, Georgia. And I think she became, for a while, maybe, part of the State Legislature? I think her married name was Beal. I think it was Alveda King Beal.

BRINSON: Mmm.

MCCRARY: She--I believe she married somebody that went—that was from Louisville.

BRINSON: And she wasn’t in the Legislature ( ).

MCCRARY: I was thinkin’ that she—had to—had something to do, or she was at time running for Council or Leg—that I remember hearing something about that. And then but basically I haven’t talked to her or seen her since then.

BRINSON: Um, do you remember the, the riot?

MCCRARY: Oh, definitely. In, in fact, you know, I was trying to think, I said, “I’m goin’ here to talk, I (laughs) have to think how clear is my head?” But—I remember that, because, um, we were planning—it was, we were getting ready to graduate and everything and ready for the Prom and all that type of stuff—

BRINSON: --And that would have been?

MCCRARY: Um, probably, I guess it started in May of sixty-eight? Because I remember just before graduating, almost, I had the measles. (laughs)

BRINSON: (laughs)

MCCRARY: Yeah. And, ah, we were planning for a, a party after the Prom. And it was a group of, ah, senior girls, and we were meeting at –I believe it was at Sherry Creacher’s house, who’s now a dentist in Louisville. And so—we had heard that—the rumor, that there was going to—that Stokely Carmichael was going to—be other big speakers—and she lived maybe a block or so away from Twenty-eighth and Greenwood. So, several of us walked over there, and we were there listening to the speakers, and, you know--and Black Power, and you know—just all the stuff that—it was still peaceful. And then we heard a rumor that they wouldn’t let his plane—Stokely Carmichael’s plane land. And—ah--but it was still, just, rhetoric, you know, you, you hear people talking. And it was, ah--a corner building, and it was a couple guys that was standin’ on top of the building I remember; and they had the megaphones, and it was—By then, it was people in the streets and it was pretty much of a crowd. Uh, then we were—we heard that—So, you know, the police are down on the next block, you know. In riot gear or something, it was – um. Everybody was like, you know, “For what?” (laughs) So—Because—I felt, that probably, if you gave it another forty-five minutes or so, most people probably would’ve got tired of standin’ there and would’ve gone. I certainly probably would have. Not been there very long, anyway. But anyway, we’re, so we’re still listening. Then all of a sudden. . . the police . . . come in, and – it was on. Uh, I remember maybe somebody threw a bottle. . . uh, and people just start taking out everywhere, and we were like, “Uh, I think it’s time to go!” (laughs) And …

BRINSON: Were you frightened?

MCCRARY: Yeah, because it was definitely out of control then. Uh, and mostly it was—people didn’t know which way to run, and—what was going to happen, because we didn’t see anything, . . . that would’ve, ah, precipitated that. You know. That type of entry in. And so we were, we were pretty, ah—fearful, and we just got out of there. And, of course we had to get back over to Sherry’s house, because that’s where the car was parked.

BRINSON: Mmm. Do you remember, um, talking to, to your family about that experience at all?

MCCRARY: I don’t know if I told them much, ‘cause probably I wasn’t sp—(laughs) supposed to be there! Uh, but—I, I’m sure I, I told them, that you know, we were listening to the speakers, and then all of a sudden the police come in, and – pretty much the same thing, because we really--nobody was really doing anything, other than, ah, listening to the speakers.

BRINSON: Right. Were there a lot of your classmates in--there, that you recall?

MCCRARY: Um—there may have been, but—prob—I guess because—part of—it’s hard to des--determine, because, because we went to schools all over Louisville that.. . . just because—if you lived in that area it didn’t mean everybody went to the school, same school. So, a lot of people—you went to schools all over. We were with a group that just happened—because we were planning a party, that some of us from our high school—so I may not even know a lot of kids at other high schools, unless I went to Shawnee Junior with them. Then I might know some at Shawnee High School, if they continued there, a few at Central, but, um--It was probably no more than four or five of us that actually went from there that I can remember.

BRINSON: Okay. Did—did the riot have, um, any effect on your high school graduation—activities, or. . . ?

MCCRARY: Well. . . I don’t think it was a—changed. I think it might have been, cleared enough by the time. . . ‘cause. . . That I don’t remember the actual day it happened, but I know it was a, a week day, ‘cause I’m pretty sure we met right after, after school. And, ah, I don’t remember any delay.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: ‘Cause our Prom was downtown at the, uh, Sheraton, at the time. And we had some on the Belle of the Louisville so—and then graduation, so I don’t remember any delay.

BRINSON: Okay. I know you’ve seen, um, the video “Living the Story.”

MCCRARY: Actually, I—didn’t see it at the time that I talked to Joan. [laughs]

BRINSON: Oh, okay. Well, well tell me when—but you have now seen it?

MCCRARY: Yeah, I’ve seen it now.

BRINSON: And I, I wonder the, ah, the segment about the takeover at the University of Louisville—

MCCRARY: Yeah, I know Blaine Hudson! (laughs]

BRINSON: Okay. Did, did you, were you aware at the time that any of that was happening?

MCCRARY: I think, at that time, when Blaine was—he was probably maybe a junior at—I was—I might have been at Eastern by then, I don’t know if I was still—‘cause he’s only maybe a couple of years older than me—and so I’m thinkin’, maybe, you know, we heard about the takeovers and stuff and it—everything was happening—little things were happening at all the college campuses, including Eastern. We didn’t have a takeover, but we had our own, ah, things going at the time.

BRINSON: How did, tell me how you know Blaine?

MCCRARY: Oh, . . . through, ah, I guess, friends growing up. And he was, he was older, but sometimes we attended some of the same parties and different outings and stuff, and also, ah, through the Open Housing Marches, he was pretty much active in everything. Ah, the ( ) son, ah, went to high school with me, too. He was always pretty quiet, though. Um, but. . .

BRINSON: I don’t – I don’t know anything about him. What, what can you tell me about him, other than I know there was a son, but. . . ?

MCCRARY: Um, after he left, I think he left Louisville for college, I want to say he went to maybe—(to herself) he didn’t go to Brandeis—somewhere north, I’m thinking--and I don’t know if he’s--come back. Um, . . . other than him being quiet and studious, that’s about all—I could tell you about him.

BRINSON: Okay. You don’t remember if he was …

MCCRARY: I don’t remember.

BRINSON: …at any of the Open Housing demonstrations, or …?

MCCRARY: He might have been, but I don’t remember him much outside of school.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: Outside of the classroom.

BRINSON: So you graduated from high school, and went to Eastern. . .

MCCRARY: Eastern, Uh-huh.

BRINSON: And, tell me about some of the activity there, that you just mentioned.

MCCRARY: Well, uh, our class—well, ah, well sixty-eight, the year we started the Black Student Union, I was the secretary. Uh, part of it was, because of all this, kind of, newfound activism that everybody came up. A lot of us decided that, well, we couldn’t complain about, not being able to participate in things that we didn’t try out for it. So some of us tried—some people tried out for cheerleading. Ah, I tried out for the Drill Team and actually was the first African American Drill Team member. I was, I was selected as an alternate at first, so I didn’t actually get into uniform till the second semester, which was actually okay with me because it was basketball season then, and indoors. (laughs)

BRINSON: Had you ever done anything like that before?

MCCRARY: No. No, never. Um—and so, just whatever activities were around campus. A lot of us decided to make a go of it. Uh, I certainly didn’t think about being picked, it was just part of a thing to do. So, I was as shocked as anybody. Um, and I remember the Kappa Alpha men’s soror—fraternity. Ah, had this annual Old South Week where they would, um, you know, basically be like the Old South, Antebellum stuff. And they would parade though campus on horseback and with the flag, Confed—you know, the whole deal.

BRINSON: Confederate flag?

MCCRARY: Yeah. And, we decided to stop that. So, we, like, linked arms, and blocked the passage, and. . . So that was kind of a brouhaha then.

BRINSON: Well that’s, what happened?

MCCRARY: Well they couldn’t pass. So they had to turn around and cut their parade short. Ah-there was, um, they were saying that well, we could be a part of that if we wanted to. And we were like, uh, “Well, what roles exactly would we play?” (laughs)

BRINSON: Stop, I’m going to turn the tape—

MCCRARY: Okay.

END SIDE ONE TAPE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE

BRINSON: Okay, go ahead.

MCCRARY: So, you know, from then the Black Student Union was, um, pretty active during that time. We also had a Miss Black Eastern, pageants and things like that went on. Uh, for several years, and--

BRINSON: Um, how many students were involved in the Black Student Union there?

MCCRARY: Um.. .

BRINSON: Just approximately.

MCCRARY: Well. . . ?

BRINSON: Was it ten, or fifty. . . ?

MCCRARY: I don’t know. I think it was at least fifty. We were—we were a pretty solid group. The first--I think the sixty-eight class was the largest group of Blacks at one time that came to Eastern. Oh, it had steadily been increasing, I think the year before, in fact, there were a lot of people that had gone to Male High School with me that were graduating in sixty-seven that were there. But I think collectively, from all over, sixty-eight brought in a big group. And so we were all pretty cohesive, for the most part. So. .. um. .. everybody was pretty active, at some point, in the BSU. The meetings were pretty well attended, and any function that we had was always well attended.

BRINSON: I wonder if. . . (Brinson coughs) if the Eastern chapter had any, um, interactions or communication with the other Black Student Unions on other Kentucky campuses, or. . . ?

MCCRARY: I don’t really think that we did – number one, mo—nobody had really, cars, back, back then. And, I think there were two cars on campus, so, you know—It wasn’t like you could, like the kids now, can just jump from one place to another. So, I think that was one of the main reasons. Um, I mean, we knew other people and maybe a few people would come down to party and stuff, but not--I don’t think the BSUs—I don’t—I don’t remember as Secretary, meeting with other BSU, ah, groups, but--

BRINSON: Did you as a student at that point in time, go home most weekends, or did you stay on—

MCCRARY: Um, you couldn’t get us home.

BRINSON: You couldn’t?

MCCRARY: It’s a whole—everything is changed now. Most students leaving Thursday, you know, campuses are dead. You—you couldn’t get us home, ‘cause we enjoyed it. We had a great time, uh, we would go down on the Hill, to the—to the Black section of town, although there were other clubs you could go to. But, we went on the Hill, in Richmond. And so, uh, most people treated us like family, about once a year there was a town versus campus thing, usually involving, like the athletes on campus and the guys in town and then that would blow over, but, um. . . We-we were just, walk down, walk down the Hill, up the Hill, so, ah. .. We didn’t go home that much.

BRINSON: At the point that you were there, ah, were most of the black students placed in a dormitory together, or were you--

MCCRARY: No

BRINSON: or were you …

MCCRARY: We were spread out, we were, we were in different dorms. My best friends, they were in the dorm next to me. I was in, ah, what is that? Taylor Hall? The oldest one on campus, I know that. [laughs]. And they were in Burnham, and , um. .. so everybody was pretty spread out, and the second semester was when Telford, the newer dorm, opened, which I moved to the second semester, so …

BRINSON: Were black students given black roommates? Was it paired that way, or …

MCCRARY: I’m trying to …

BRINSON: How did that work?

MCCRARY: I, I did, and--a lot of us, though, went—Now, a lot went with their friends, so they had their choice of roommates, they chose a roommate. But I believe on some occasions it was integrated.

BRINSON: Mmm. How did you find the Eastern campus at that point in time in terms of ( ).

MCCRARY: Mostly it was word of mouth, ‘cause originally I wanted to go to Hampton University, ah, in Virginia. And, then, for some reason, I don’t know, maybe friends came back and they told us how they liked Eastern. I remember our parents taking us down to--taking me down to, look over the campus, and. . . I was really, not sure if I wanted to go when I read the rules, at least in 1968, you know, about the curfew, and, um. . . You couldn’t go downtown, not that I would, but downtown in hair-curlers, or, house shoes. You know, there were a lot of different things, and I [laughs] I thought it was kind of restrictive, with the early, ah, curfews and stuff. Which, that ended—probably in my second semester or sophomore year there were no more curfews and stuff, so …

BRINSON: Mmm, how did you find, ah, the faculty, and, ah,--well, first off, were there any black faculty?

MCCRARY: I believe there was, maybe one—was Dr. Way down there then?

BRINSON: Dr.--?

MCCRARY: When he came

BRINSON: Wh?

MCCRARY: W-A-Y.

BRINSON: ( )

MCCRARY: I think he was in Industrial Arts or something.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: I, I didn’t have any.

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: Um, when I was there. But, a lot of the classes were so big that I really—I didn’t feel, necessarily, uh, that I had a problem, ‘cause most of the classes were so big that I don’t see that there could be a lot of close interaction. Although I did notice in maybe in a couple classes where I might have been the only black or there was only two of us that—I remember, I do remember one professor would call the roll, but he hardly ever called my name, ‘cause he just looked up, and—[laughs], I’m either there or I’m not, you know, so …

BRINSON: But he gave you credit for being there.

MCCRARY: Oh, yeah, yeah, but—[laughs] you know, he could—just—Look up, and “She’s here.”

BRINSON: Right.

MCCRARY: Yeah, but, ah, there were some professors that were really, uh, neat to me, maybe when I was away, to be very nice—I can’t think of his name but he was an, anthropology professor that was very liberal and outgoing. And actually, my English, [coughs] professor that tried to get me to switch to English major, uh, he taught at Male, and I, when I was there. When he found out I went to Male, he, —he knew why I was doing so well in English, so, you know, so.

BRINSON: Is that what your major was?

MCCRARY: Ah, no. A, actually I don’t think I even had a major, at that point. There was probably my—probably freshman and sophomore year, and then I thought maybe Social Work. I really didn’t know what I wanted to do. And then the Law Enforcement Program started, and I thought about law enforcement; but as a, maybe being working with juvenile probations. And now they have the--where you can major in that; but at the time you could maybe mix Law Enforcement with Social Work. And so that was, probably what I was thinking, ah, then. But Mr. Ladder, he tried his best to get me to switch to an English, ah, major. And--the classes, I remember--in biology, ah, my partner, actually, my partner, he was a, young white guy from—who lived in--from a rural area, and, ah, I did the writing ‘cause he liked to do the cutting on the pigs. (laughs) That was—so we worked it out pretty well. And, ah, I helped him in English, uh, because I did have good training in high school in English. Everyday we had to write a theme. Ah, for our English class, or human—Everyday you walked in the room you wrote. So, even if I forgot one, I could be in the grill and write something. And--so. . .

BRINSON: Hmm. Um, you said that you, left, and, ah, took a break there and went back. Did you go back to Eastern, or. . .?

MCCRARY: Yes, I went back to Eastern. Ah, after I found out I was—only needed eighteen hours or something, and that was in eighty-nine/ninety, which I actually graduated in ninety. Um—

BRINSON: And what was your major?

MCCRARY: Well, I—I didn’t switch, because—so-it—Law Enforcement, though, changed to Police Administration. And so, actually my degree’s in Police Administration. I still have my Social Work Minor.

BRINSON: I see.

MCCRARY: And I didn’t work in any of them (laughs), but. . .

BRINSON: You worked in the Fayette County …

MCCRARY: Health Department now. But actually, what precipitated me goin’ back to school was that I worked for about nine years at the food stamp center where we issued out food stamps here. Ah, it was a privately-owned company that had a state contract. And like, then, that was over, and, ah, I was drawing unemployment, and when back to—found out that they said, “You’ve only got eighteen more hours you need.” So, I went and finished that.

BRINSON: Finished that.

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum.

BRINSON: Um, did you ever think about moving back to Louisville?

MCCRARY: Yes, and –but I guess, just the way either the way the jobs worked out, or something, I ended up here. But when people ask me where I’m from, even though I’ve been here about twenty years, I say, “Louisville.”

BRINSON: Mmm-hum. Okay.

MCCRARY: And I still go to Louisville often, ‘cause my parents are still there.

BRINSON: How would you compare race relations in Lexington with ah, relations in Louisville?

MCCRARY: Uh—Lexington’s sort of funny—and I don’t know if it’s necessarily all down race lines, as it is--even with—I’ll just say that most of my friends from Lexington, ah, especially my black friends, but any of my friends, my closest friends, aren’t originally from Lexington. Now they might be from small towns, like, ah, Lynch, Harlan, Fleming, . .. you know, a lot of places, but--I can’t think of over two that were, I could say that I’m close to, that were born and raised in Lexington. Ah--And I used to think that it was, like, maybe a Lexington-Louisville type thing, but I know it’s deeper than that. It’s a different mentality I find here. Than I do in Louisville.

BRINSON: In Louisville.

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum.

BRINSON: Can you …

MCCRARY: I don’t know how—

BRINSON: How is it different?

MCCRARY: I—It seems like a lot of people here--aren’t as happy to see, maybe, other people succeed?

BRINSON: Humm.

MCCRARY: Uh—it’s more of a cliquishness—ah—it’s very different actually. And I don’t know if I should say this on the record—(laughs), because it’s somebody else that said it to my mother: but a woman that lived here and was married to somebody very prominent here--um, actually the man, um, oh what’s his name? Used to sing “My Old Kentucky Home,” for the UK games. She never felt . . . close. . . to, especially to a lot of the other African American women here. And they’ve been here for a long time. And, and when I talk to a lot of my friends that aren’t from here, too, it’s—they have the same thing, so, I know it wasn’t just me. (laughs)

BRINSON: Okay. Good. Um, I wonder if there’s anything else, and--well, in particular, let me ask you—overall, how, how do you think that your involvement in some of those early experiences in high school, um, shaped who you are today?

MCCRARY: Oh, I think – not just those things, but even from, going through Mississippi when I was younger, ah – My parents and my grandparents, we always traveled somewhere, in the summer, whether was Mississippi or Detroit or Niagara Falls, they took us out a lot, so we, we had a lot of exposure to a lot of different people and a lot of situations. So, I mean, all of that has made me more, I think, open, ah, to people. Um. . . and. . . Uh, . . . Definitely not very closed-minded about anything, but – Um, it’s let me try to hear other people’s views, but also, um, at—the ability to say what I need to say, too. Um. . . .

BRINSON: Okay.

MCCRARY: Do you know, Anne, uh, Butler?

BRINSON: I do.

MCCRARY: Well, she went to—she was at Eastern at that time, and so—(laughs)

BRINSON: I, I wondered, and I …

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum.

BRINSON: …almost asked you that. If you were …

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum.

BRINSON: Knew her, or--

MCCRARY: Yeah.

BRINSON: Do you stay in touch with her today?

MCCRARY: Ah, it—I see her from time to time since she’s over at Kentucky State now, but, ah, um. . .yup, she was part of that close-knit, knit group, with the Black Student Union and everything at Eastern.

BRINSON: She, um, she and I are good friends.

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum. Yeah.

BRINSON: We work closely on this project …

MCCRARY: Mmm-hum.

BRINSON: --and some other things.

MCCRARY: Yeah

BRINSON: And whatnot.

MCCRARY: Yeah, yeah. I remember, well--I hadn’t seen her for years, and she was in town. At the time she was still out at Kansas. (laughs) And then she was back here, and, ah, I’ve seen her at a few things.

BRINSON: She, she recalls her, um, her years at Eastern, though as—She was a little more reluctant, as I recall, to jump in and do things with the Black Student Union. She--

MCCRARY: Well, it might have been—and, you know, I don’t know why, I can’t speak for her—it seemed like she was always with us, but ah – She was probably a couple years before, at least a couple years before me. And, so, you know, it wasn’t as—as many students when she started, so I’m sure she already had kind of her niche.

BRINSON: Right.

MCCRARY: But also a lot of us, and since not all, but a lot of us came from Louisville, our, ah, we were seeing some of our classmates, I remember some guys on the track team who, we took them home, like Thanksgiving, cause they didn’t—they couldn’t go all the way home and we’d take them home with us. So, but there were a lot of people that had been either active, or just – and from, especially larger cities, instead of smaller ones, where we were used to being out in the movement, so to speak. So Ann[e?] came from a smaller community—and so--

BRINSON: And she would agree with you there, I know, so--

MCCRARY: Yeah, yeah.

BRINSON: Okay. Well thank you very much.

MCCRARY: But I--don’t think she’s that way now! (laughs)

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW