Oral History Interview with Herbert Oldham

MAXINE RAY: This is Maxine Ray conducting an interview for the Civil Rights Project, sponsored by the Kentucky Oral History Commission of the Kentucky Historical Society. Today I’m interviewing Mr. Herbert Oldham here in his home, in . Today’s date is March 16, 2001. Today we’re going to be talking about the Civil Rights Movement from 1930 through 1970. Um, Mr. Oldham, can you give me your full name please?

HERBERT : Herbert A. Oldham.

RAY: Um, what’s your date of birth?

: May the 25th, 1932.

RAY: Ah, what’s your parents’ names?

: Mabel and Lloyd Oldham.

RAY: How long have you lived in ?

: I’ve been in for approximately forty-six years.

RAY: Now tell me a little bit about your education, the schools you attended.

: I’m a graduate of the former , in . I received my B.A. degree from in . Did additional work at for a Master’s, and thirty hours above the Master’s in Leadership Certificate for Principals, Superintendents, and Directors of Personnel.

RAY: What was your occupation?

: I was a school teacher and school administrator.

RAY: Mm-hmm. Are you retired now?

: Currently I’m—yes, I am retired. Been retired now for nine years.

RAY: Ah, well, let’s talk a little bit about integration in the schools. When integration started here in , what position did you have?

: I was, ah, a school teacher at that time.

RAY: Ah, what school did you--were you at, at the time?

: At the time that we integrated schools I was at the High Street High School, as a teacher and also served as a football coach.

RAY: Can you tell me about, a little about High Street during the time that integration began, how the--what the feeling was, at the school, with the students or teachers about integration?

: At the time that the schools were integrated, we had to close High Street School, it was a surprise. And it was a surprise mainly because, ah, we, the black community was not aware that they were going to close the school. Ah, basically as a teacher we were under the impression, you know that the school would remain as it was for an indefinite period of time. And of course, behind closed doors they were making plans otherwise. And we heard on the radio one afternoon that the school was going to be closed.

RAY: Oh my goodness.

: And like I said, there was no prior announcement. There was no prior planning, involving teachers of the school or the principal of the school. We just received a notice, like I said, over the radio, that the schools were going to be closed in August of, uh, that year. I think it was sixty. . . four, I believe.

RAY: Well, when, ah, how soon afterwards—did you get to keep your job?

: By the grace of God some of us were able to keep our jobs. Uh, better than three-fourths of the staff lost their jobs. And, they told us that those who—well, there were certain teachers that they wanted. And the Board of Education chose the teachers they wanted to keep, and the other teachers’ contacts were not renewed. It was just fortunate, for myself, that I was able to . . . be kept on. But it was unfortunate that some of the other teachers--who were outstanding teachers--they had to leave the city. They weren’t-- some of them went back to their home-towns, and they were fortunate enough to get jobs. We had teachers from who went back to , we had--some of the people went to , , and got jobs, some to . But there was five or six of us out of a staff of thirty-some teachers that received employment here in .

RAY: Now High Street was an elementary and a high school?

: At the time of integration, it was a combination, it was high school and elementary, from grades one through twelve. And probably the composition of the students, at that time, there was probably. . . um, a hundred fifty or sixty students in the high school, which would have gone from grades nine through twelve. And the remainder of the student body, which was probably three hundred and eighty to forty, ah, they were in the elementary schools.

RAY: Now which one of the schools did you get to teach in?

: I had the, the great honor, I’m being somewhat sarcastic. I had the great honor to go to the . And of course many in the community, unfortunately, felt that we were going to Heaven by going to . That we were giving up, had to give up High Street School, but the teachers and even the students understood that High Street was an outstanding school; but there were a small group who believed in those days that white was right. And some had even aided in um, having the school closed because they just did not feel good about some of the teachers at the school. When I say some, I’m talking about--these were Afro-Americans who did not feel good, and they wanted it closed. So those of us that were fortunate enough to go to the high school, we were going to the “Big High School,” used to call it, ‘cause we were going to better things. But, ah, it didn’t work out like that. We left an A-rated school, with a building that was A-rated, equipment that was A-rated, teachers that were A-rated, and we went to a school where we had none of that. I taught, uh, six classes a day, six classrooms.

RAY: Six different classrooms?

OLDHAM: Six different classrooms. The books and the materials that I needed to go--needed for my class--I had to carry them in my arms, to the six classrooms. It just wasn’t ideal. We had, a well-equipped science room, and I taught science. And, ah, at the high school, Bowling Green High, I also taught science, but none of that equipment that I had at High Street, I never had at Bowling Green High School. So that’s that fairy tale, when you think, white is right, and they have everything, but they didn’t. We still can remember …

RAY: Talk about—

OLDHAM: We still can remember, in order to go to the school, when they closed it, they backed up U-Haul trucks at our school, loaded our material in the truck, carried it to the white school. And as a teacher going to that school, I did not have the opportunity to use the same equipment that I had at High Street. I had nothing to use.

RAY: Hmm.

OLDHAM: So don’t always believe, as you go through life, that big is better, and that white is right.

RAY: How were you treated by the white faculty at the new school?

OLDHAM: When I went to the high school, I was treated with respect and honor. I assume the staff had pre-training for us coming. I also may assume that many of them, ah, knew those of us that were coming, because we did go to professional meetings together. But the staff and the principal, they treated us, ah, fine.

RAY: Well in this new, how did the students take it, did you lose any, ah, of the black students or did they all go on to this school, or did they drop out of school, or …?

OLDHAM: It’s interesting you would ask that question. No, we didn’t lose any students. Student did not drop out. We heard, by the way of the grapevine, that the reason for closing our high school, High Street School--the basic reason for closing it, wasn’t due to the fact that the building was inadequate—as I previously said, we had an A-rated building. It wasn’t due to the fact that the teachers were inadequate, because they all were qualified and had Master’s Degrees. And it wasn’t because our student were so bad and they needed to be trained. None of these things. But we were told that the main reason for closing the all-black high school was to have the black athletes to come and participate on their sports team. They had been losing in their sports program in football, and basketball, and track, for the past years. And High Street, on the other had, had teams that were participating in the white state tournaments and being quite successful. Their athletes were outstanding, and they wanted the athletes to participate on their teams. Now, did we lose any students? No, but we did lose some athletes, so when they went to the high school, they had a quota on the number, really, that they wanted on their teams, and then they chose the ones they considered to be superior, that would help their teams. So those players had an opportunity to participate, but the – ah, maybe those who were not quite as gifted did not. So we lost athlete participation. They didn’t have that. So if you had a football team with sixty people on it, you may have had five blacks. But the other blacks did not get an opportunity.

RAY: Okay. Did the students express any kind of fear in going to the, ? Or were they comfortable in going, or. . . ?

: To my recollection, I-I don’t recall students expressing any fear, not to me personally. A year or two prior to the school closing, they were ordered to integrate the schools. And they made it a choice program. And of course we had some black students who were already attending . And doing quite well. And maybe they could have been conversing with the other students, but as I can recall, most of our students, they only thing that they were upset over was losing their, their school. As far as going to the school, they were ready to go and to make a contribution and get their education, basically what they were going for. So that’s why I say, no, we didn’t lose anyone, because they were still going, hopefully to get a better education.

RAY: Okay. Um, did you have any feedback from the parents in any kind of way, were they—were the parents--have fear for their children going to school?

: Here again, no. As far as I’m aware, the parents did not. And it’s strange, too. During this particular time, as all the time, you have two sides. And you have the white American side, and you have the African-American side. There were some Afro-Americans who believed that they were going to a better place, and they wanted their kids to go there. They didn’t want them to stay at High Street, because they thought High Street was an inferior place. They just didn’t know. So they had contributed very much to, ah, their students, or their children, going. So, ah, they worked towards this. No, those things did not exist.

RAY: Well did you remember any kind of incidents or anything, any kind of discrimination that was blatantly racist, before you or any of the students came in?

: In moving to the high school, no. There were none. There were some other incidents that happened prior to integration, well, prior to the closing of the school. Prior to the closing of the school, ah, I have to be honest, that the ah, the whites made an attempt to integrate socially in athletics with, ah, with the students. And there was one big incident where they attempted to come back to the grounds, and to have the students mingle together in a pep rally for the football team. And on that night – ah, you take five or six hundred students, and you put them out on a dark football field, the only light that you have is the light from the bonfire, it generates some—well, it generated an opportunity for some to start a disturbance. And that particular night, ah, the disturbance was between the black girls and the white girls. And, um, the black girls were accused of taking hatpins.

RAY: O-oh.

: And sticking the white girls in the back. And that brought on quite a disturbance. In a way, it kind of set back the relationships between the two groups, because like I say, I do believe that the whites felt that they were making an effort, to come and mingle, and participate with the black kids on their turf, which was High Street. And from that point on, things kind of degenerated. As far as relationship with one another. But nothing, nothing real bad.

RAY: Um, when you retired, what position did you have at your school?

: When I, when I retired, [sound of phone ringing.]

[Tape clicks off and on.]

RAY: Now, what position did you hold when you retired?

: When I retired I was Director of Pupil Personnel of the Bowling Green City Schools. And I held that position for about fifteen years. And of course all this happened after closing, or integrating the school system. Um. . . You asked previously about, ah, . . . what happened when we went to the high school. We went to the high school and I went, I stayed at the high school approximately . . . a year. And that’s when I had the opportunity to come back as Principal of High Street Elementary School. And, ah, stayed at High Street Elementary for about eight years. And of course, we closed that school. And that was really hard. In closing the elementary school, because it was probably a little more closer-knit school, being an elementary school. And it was the last vestige of the—of an all-black school in the city. And it’s, was the last vestige of an entity that kept the community together, as High Street. So when our elementary would close, then our students were scattered, some went to Potter Grey Elementary School, some went to Parker Bennett . And our teachers were all, ah, scattered. One went to this school, one went to that school. Thankful, unlike the High School, though, each teacher had a position. And of course I went at the time to, ah, to be Director, we called it at the time, Director of Curriculum at Bowling Green Junior High School, where I stayed for a year. And then after that year I went to their Central Office as Director of Pupil Personnel Services. Being ah, being one of the first Afro-Americans to be put in an administrative position in the, in the school system. And as I say I stayed there for fifteen years. It was—they were good years, because I had the opportunity to deal with blacks and whites, and it was a position of service, really. Being able to provide services for kids and services for parents that enabled the kids to attain their particular goals in life.

RAY: Well, ah, I don’t have any more questions, do you have anything else you want to say?

OLDHAM: Well, during my period of, um, of integration and the Civil Rights struggle, um, there were good times. And there were bad times. We did not want, in many instances, to change. But change was necessary. And from that change, ah, we all hoped that the outcome would be better not only for the Afro-Americans that were being affected, but we also thought that the whites would become a little more knowledgeable, of some of our culture, things of this nature. But I guess in ending this, I spent thirty-seven years in the Bowling Green City School System. And during that time, there were good times, and there were bad times. When you talk to black youth, and you try to encourage them to attain an education in order that they might be prepared for anything that confronts them, in future years, of their lives, and you have to live in a situation as I did in Bowling Green, where you had to always be on guard to protect your personal interest, because when you received that education, it was not a guarantee that you would be in a position to accept a promotion if it became available. And I use that in my instance, always being a first at something. First black principal here, and the first that, um—There were a lot of firsts that were eliminated from me. And they were eliminated because of attitudes. You may be prepared, but the person in position—of, uh, hiring, could make the rules that they wanted to make. And that’s what’s happening today. I had situations that--where I was qualified for a position, but those in charge wanting someone else of color—of their color—white--to have the position; and my being in charge, they eliminated the position, saying, “That they no longer needed that particular position.” And then after years passed, and you retire, and a couple months after you retire, they re-institute the position and they’d make everybody else an assistant to the superintendent for the same position, it gives you an indication, whether true or not, that it was done because of your race. And I hope that future generations will understand that just because you’re qualified, it doesn’t mean that you’re going to always get that position, but you do have to be qualified. And if you’re qualified, then you can remove their reasoning that you weren’t qualified is why you didn’t get the job. But, ah, being qualified and just being educated doesn’t remove people from being prejudiced toward you. So you just have to depend on God, which has been our Savior, for the last two hundred years. If it hadn’t been for Him then we wouldn’t advanced as far as we have as a race.

RAY: Well, well thank you for your time and thank you for letting me interview you.

OLDHAM: Thank you.

END OF SIDE ONE TAPE ONE

END OF INTERVIEW