Oral History Interview with Ronald Lewis

MAXINE RAY: This is Maxine Ray, conducting an interview for the Civil Rights Project, sponsored by the Kentucky Oral History Commission, Kentucky Historical Society. I am interviewing Mr. Ron Lewis, at his home here in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Today’s date is June 20, 2001. Now, Mr. Lewis, would you give me your full name please?

RONALD LEWIS: My name is Ronald D. Lewis, I generally go by Ron Lewis.

RAY: Ah, what’s your date of birth, please?

LEWIS: December 3, 1948.

RAY: Ah, what’s your parents’ names?

LEWIS: Ah, Mr. and Mrs. James W. Lewis, Senior.

RAY: Okay, how long have you lived in Bowling Green?

LEWIS: I’ve lived here since, ah, 1966. That was the year I came to attend Western, and then, I raised my family, well, I met my wife, raised my family, been living here ever since.

RAY: Ah, what’s your occupation?

LEWIS: I’m a teacher. I’ve been teaching now for thirty-one years, Bowling Green Junior High School. I’ve taught some of, a couple years at the high school.

RAY: Um, do, uh. . . What classes do you teach, at what grade level do you teach?

LEWIS: Okay, ah, the Junior High has been, ah, seventh, eighth, and ninth grade levels. Generally two years, like sixth and seventh, excuse me, seventh and eighth, or eighth and ninth. And, ah, that, this year it’s seventh and eighth. Next year it’ll switch to sixth, seventh and eighth.

RAY: When you, ah, first started teaching at junior high school, were their classes integrated?

LEWIS: Yes

RAY: ( )

LEWIS: Yes, all the classes, ah, were integrated. Now, to what degree, I’m not totally sure. But, there was, you know, some degree of integration.

RAY: Okay, when you started in junior high, did you face any kinds of racisms or anything from other teachers, or through the administration?

LEWIS: Uh, I don’t remember as much through the administration. I, I do remember there being some racism, uh, from some of the staff, some of the students. More than anything else, there wasn’t, you know, a great deal of racism; but then some of it was subtle. There was very little overt, ah, racism from the fact--but there were some subtle points of racism. And with the kids, ah, . . . there was a little. But I think most of that was due to ignorance, or their lack of interaction with blacks.

RAY: Okay, now, where did you live before you came to Bowling Green?

LEWIS: Ah, I’m originally from Bardstown, Kentucky. And it was in--I came to Western in 1966.

RAY: Well, okay, during your earlier school years in, ah, um, Bardstown, were the schools integrated there?

LEWIS: Not as, not initially. Ah, I attended a, ah, predominantly, well, it was all-black, ah, school, Bardstown Training. Ah, through my seventh grade year. And our class was the last seventh grade to grade—well, graduate from Bardstown Training. They had integrated the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth, ah, about two or three years earlier. Maybe about four years earlier. Because my oldest brother, ah, he was the last senior graduating class from Bardstown Training. And, ah, let’s see, I was trying to think how many years he is older than I am. One, two, three, four, seven, he’s seven years older than I am. So, um, that was the year that they actually, or the year after that, they integrated.

RAY: Can you, um, think of any type of, um, overt racism that you faced during your years at Bardstown, your elementary years, at the stores, or libraries, or--?

LEWIS: Oh, yes. Um, it was very clear, as a matter of fact, there was a show, ah, a picture show. There was a balcony, and that’s the only place we were allowed to watch the movie. Ah, down below the whites who attended were in a larger section. And stores uptown, the drug store and the ice cream parlor, you could go in and order, but you could not sit down. And then I remember, after, a lot of the civil rights movement and integration and so on, we were allowed to go in; but in the back of our minds (laughs), we hesitated going in. Now some of us decided, well, we’re going to take a chance on this. And we did go in and sat down. We did receive a few stares. Um, I don’t remember anything verbal, ah, once we did sit down. I believe the town more or less accepted what was going on then. And, ah, some of the relations, race relationships, back then, were pretty good. Ah, the community I lived in--of course there were several sections of town in Bardstown where blacks predominantly lived. And the areas between where the black neighborhood ended and the white neighborhood took over, ah, many times I lived on those fringe areas. So I did have some friends who were white. And we got along pretty well. Of course, there were some, you know, disagreements. But, by and large, the relationship was there and. . . it was pretty good, pretty good. When I came to Bowling Green, um, uh, I, I don’t know--I had a feeling that, at the time--of course Bardstown’s a small area--that I had gone back in time, to some degree. But, uh, with Western, and ah, the other part of the community, it grew, and changed.

RAY: Did you all have any, in Bardstown, did you have any kind of marches, did the Klan every march in your city--or the--you all have any kind of protests?

LEWIS: There were, ah, no Klan marches that I remember. Um, I, as a matter of fact I don’t even remember any demonstrations, um, for the Civil Rights movement, except the time when we went to Frankfort. I say “we”, I didn’t go that day. But, uh, there were a group of individuals who left Bardstown, that went to Frankfort, for the march. And I was trying to think of whether I was asked to go, or whether I had intended to go; but I did my--but I regretted not going to the march on Frankfort. But I don’t remember any civil rights marching there in Bardstown.

RAY: Okay, this community that you live in now, here in Bowling Green, when you moved in, was it, ah, predominantly one race community? Or was it a, was it mixed?

LEWIS: This area right here?

RAY: Uh-huh.

LEWIS: It was mixed. Uh, of course, ah, on two sides of me were neighbors who were black, and two sides the neighbors were white. And we got along really well.

RAY: Good.

LEWIS: Ah, we were accepted. Of course the neighborhood itself had been integrated years before. And I didn’t experience any racial problems that I, I know of. You know, no shouting or no writing on walls or damaging property that I know of.

RAY: Okay, when you came to Western, how about, uh, race relations there, did you

meet any obstacles when you were going to Western?

LEWIS: Um, yeah, there were some. Um, I remember, uh, going in and eating in a couple places that, we received a number of stares. And, of course at that time we took, it was our understanding that all the places were open. But, uh, when we went in, some of the service, uh, in some of the establishments—were--seemed less, uh, I guess, receptive than others. But there were a few places where we received, uh, equal treatment, or we felt like there wasn’t any differences made. Um, up on Western’s campus, um, now that was a little more open. I think because people were from different areas, and, um, were maybe accustomed, or maybe a little more accustomed to meeting people from different backgrounds.

RAY: Do you, um, belong to any kind of civil rights organizations or any civil organizations?

LEWIS: Yes, um, I’ve been a member of the NAACP for several years. And, uh, ever since the charter was, uh, reinstated back here in Bowling Green. At one time I was saying, before I was here, and this is through Dr. ( ); Selvin Butts, and some others who lived here, that there was an NAACP chapter back here, ah, probably in the early twenties, if I’m not mistaken, or some time around there. And, then, for some reason the chapter went out, but it was re, uh, chartered in the early seventies.

RAY: And we don’t have a chapter now, do we?

LEWIS: Ah, not an active chapter, no. Ah, the office was closed down. It was two years ago if I’m not mistaken. And, ah, was due to less involvement and some of those--and, ah, some of the people, they did not see some issues. They saw some changes occurring, and I think, ah, most of the people, thought, we have a run, but I disagree with that. And I was starting to see that the chapter closed. But at the time, ah, you know, I didn’t have as much time to devote to it. And some of the others didn’t as well.

RAY: Did you hold any offices, in the NAACP?

LEWIS: Yes, ah, I was President of the Bowling Green/Warren County NAACP. I was initially, when we were rechartered, the strategy was to--and we met at Taylor Baptist Church, and the State Street Church, and Mt. Zion, that I remember, ah, on a rotating basis. And the strategy was that ah, someone would chair. We didn’t really have a President, and we rotated, the Chairmanship of that committee, from, I believe it was month-to-month. The strategy was that--ah, in the past the reason the president or chairperson did not continue was pressure, was brought on--the, ah, forces of the racism would zero in on this person. Either, ah, through their job, or economics, or sometimes political pressure, and cause him to leave. And we felt like, if that were the case, then, ah, if you rotated the leadership, you would not get those forces of racism the chance to concentrate on one person. They had do deal with the entire community. And, ah, so, we rotated around. And I think I was the third, oh, I guess, potential chairperson as we rotated. And, after that time, after a couple rotations, we felt like, ah, it was time to establish a President. And if I’m not mistaken, I think I was the first elected President after the recharter.

RAY: Can you remember any particular, ah, issue that you all faced, or any problem that you all, that the NAACP, faced?

LEWIS: Yes, ah, Initially, ah, we, ah, were lacking in funds, and we wanted to address some problems in housing, and employment and in education. Those were our main thrusts. And at that particular time, there was information on Affirmative Action. And that was, ah, our initial thrust, to, ah, bring Affirmative Action to Bowling Green. And we went through some changes there, because we had to educate the city of Bowling Green, because, ah, the city officials were unaware as to really what Affirmative Action was; and so was a lot of the community. And, ah, many of the people that we dealt with, and we met with officials from the city, and they were under the impression that affirmative action was just quotas. And we said, “It’s more than that.” Ah, that it’s, it’s a force to bring equality in education and employment, and equality in housing and in other areas; by taking some positive and forceful directives. And we tried to educate them on the fact that quotas were only brought in after an entity like the government, or agency, or company, failed to actually implement their equal opportunity programs, or, they’d made little effort. And after they’d been given the opportunity then the courts actually ordered quotas. And that’s where the term quotas were being made to do this, that and the other. But many of them had the wrong impression, again, affirmative action they thought you just had to put a minority, ah, in that area, whether they were qualified or not. And that was another downfall, and that was another reason why Affirmative Action did not go well and it got a bad reputation. Ah, some communities did not understand Affirmative Action, and they put minorities in those areas strictly because they were minorities but not because they were qualified to do the work.

Now, another organization that I belonged to, was, I was a member of the Human Rights Commission as well; and served on the Human Rights Commission for several years. I was Interim Chairperson during a time that they needed a director. And, I served on a couple committees, and one committee in particular was Housing. And, ah, I chaired that committee. Now I also worked some in Employment, and some in Education, but primarily I worked on the Housing Committee. And that was through some personal (laughs) experiences I had concerning racism. Ah, my wife and I, ah, we sought places to live. And, um, I, I guess sometimes you, ah, assume the world is changing and yet it’s not. And I believe at that time we thought, ah, some of the old vestiges of racism had been removed, until we tried to rent some property. And, ah, at the time we couldn’t afford it, and neither of us had a permanent job at the time. But we tried to rent some property, and that was, I guess, part of our first awakening that racism was still alive, and prominent. And some of the excuses that people gave, and most of these we were able to call, just to see if the property was available. And, ah, some people were, I say ignorant, but, ah, some people were, just that bold to say, “Are you black?” on the phone. And of course I wasn’t going to deny who or what I was. I would say, “Yes,” and sometimes the phone would click there. Ah, one place we called, and, ah, everything was fine, the rent, the accommodations, and everything, but then, when it got to who we were, we said, “Yeah, we’re black.” And they said, “Well, we can’t rent to you.” And I said, “Well, tell me why?” And this lady says, “Well, because I had, a black man, and he was very demanding, and so on.” And I said, “But you don’t know me.” “Oh, but no, we can’t rent to you.” And so we spent several things like this. But, ah, the one that stands out in my mind, initially, was, we went to see some property at the Plum Springs. And, everything was fine over the phone, ah, race never did come up. When we, ah, pulled in to the place, we were waiting, and the property owner drove up. And as a matter of fact, he told us that, “He didn’t actually, wasn’t the only owner, there were several other people involved. But he was a representative, and he handed the renting of the property.” So when we drove up, he looked at us, and we got this unusual stare, as if to say, “You all are black!” (laughs) Which, my wife and I, you know, we had become accustomed to by this time. And this was, maybe the third or fourth incident where we had been denied property. But at that time, we were talking, and we wanted to see the house, and he wouldn’t even show us the house. He said, “You all need to go back into Bowling Green, and find some property there.” But, my wife, ah, she’s normally a calm person, but this was the straw that broke the camel’s back. She--he said, “Well, I’ll rent it to you, but for an extra”--I think it was an extra hundred or seventy-five dollars during the time. And, the rent from the place was only going to be a hundred and twenty five, so this was more like two hundred and twenty-five. And, my wife said, “Before I’ll rent it I’ll burn the place down.” I said, “Oh, honey, don’t say that.”(laughter both). And I had to hold her back, because she was very upset, and I can understand. I said, “No, that’s all right.” I said, “We’ll take care of this, we’ll take care of this.” And, ah, “But you’re not renting to us because we’re black?” And he said, “Yes.” He said, “That’s the reason why.” He said, “But, if you all pay the extra amount,” he said, “You can. But we have all types of cars out here.” And I mean, that blew my mind, because we only had one car then (Laughs). But nevertheless, it showed some of the ignorance. But anyway, I went back home, and I was angry and upset. But I was trying to, ah, maintain some objectivity to myself. So I started writing down the incident, the whole incident, documenting it, something in the back of my mind told me here this was, it was at least the fourth situation, and I was tired of being confronted with it. So, ah, I wrote it up, and at that time, I don’t think there was an active chapter of the Human Rights Commission, here. Ah, so, ah, well there was, I’m sorry, there was. But, ah, the lady, there was one person, I think Mrs. Denny, was the Director, but she was there, and I’m not even sure if she had a secretary. So, I turned in the complaint to her. And got the article out in the newspaper, where it’d advertised for a certain amount, and did all that. And she said, “Well,” she said, “We are not equipped to do an investigation or anything here.” So she said, “I’m going to forward it on to the State Human Rights Commission.” So she did. And they sent an investigator out, talked with me, and so on and various other things that went on to investigate the process. And in the end, we were allowed to rent the house, if we wanted. And at that time we had our first child, and winter was coming on, and not knowing what we were going to face, we said, “No, we didn’t want to face the possibility of being out there, with the heat off, or something, and then the landlord not taking care of it.” So we didn’t feel good about it. So there was this small monetary agreement, and then the, you know, in the meantime found another place to rent. But, that, initially, got me a little more involved in the Civil Rights process, and, ah, with the Human Rights Commission, and, ah, I’d say at the time I was already a member of the NAACP, but I hadn’t been very active.

RAY: Oh, very interesting, very interesting. (laughs)

LEWIS: I’m aware of some other stories, too, but by and large, that’s the way it was, but you know, for years I’ve seen Bowling Green change.

RAY: Do you think it’s changed for the better, or are we still under the …?

LEWIS: Ah, I think it has changed for the better, and, and I would say there are several things of course. It seems like--and I believe Bowling Green integrated after Bardstown, and that’s why, some of the difficulties arose--during the, I would say late sixties, early seventies, ah, it surprised me, in that I thought the communities were open. But still, there was a significant amount of progress, and I think the fact that community accepted integration I believe--of course Western was here. We have had some active, community, ah, community leaders who were interested in making the community better, black and white. And, ah, I think with the influx of, ah, the, ah, GM plant, I think was significant in the area of housing and employment for a couple or reasons. One--some of the blacks were not able to buy some of the properties because of the price range and so on. Others were steered by the realtors, and there’s some issues involved with that, too. Ah, but I, think then, too, the community--and not just the black community, but the white community--the reason I saw, was that many of them felt comfortable in the community where they were, whether it was black or white and they didn’t really need to go out to try to integrate. And, ah, there were, you know, sometimes, families lived in integrated neighborhoods here and they got along well. But by and large, the community did not. And I think when the GM people came in, ah, many of the black and white, pretty much bought where they wanted to be, and, and I think that was an issue for us. And all of those things, everybody, ( ) was affected, too, ah, Bowling Green through change, I think Bowling Green grew up, and accepted the idea of integration, and, ah, diverse community; and so I think for economic reasons as well. And, ah, as I said, initially, when I came to Bowing Green, I said four years, when I get my degree, I’m gone. But here I am. Ah, since sixty-six, ah, Bowling Green grows on you, it’s changed for the better, I’ve raised my family, and I intended to live here. So, it’s, it’s been good.

RAY: Well, that’s all the questions I have, do you have anything else you want to ask that I haven’t asked?

LEWIS: Well, I would say, just like the Civil Rights movement across the nation--the churches were a key part in providing some leadership and direction. For the human rights, for the, ah, Civil Rights Movement. Ah, there were few white members who took the lead. And, you know, ah, I’m very proud to know some of them and have worked with them, they were very open. Uh, Hank Tutino, was, was one. And, ah, I just mention him, there were several. Ah, but there were several people to put their lives on the line, their reputation, ah, friendships; because I’m sure they were criticized by some for--with working with the blacks and so on. I remember there was, ah, a meeting of some concerned citizens, black and white, ah, just to—Mr. George Esters—the Reverend Esters, met down, I think at Third and State Street for a time. And, ah, there was a teacher at Western that I remember, ah, who was white, who taught, I’m not sure if it was physics, or science department, Dr. Holley, he and his wife, were very instrumental in getting the Human Rights Commission established here; and, ah, opening up part of the community for what I felt were outsiders. Whether they be from another area or whether they be, ah, black, or whatever. Ah, but they were people whose names we were given initially that we had problems, to contact them. And I think some of the efforts of Western, ah, helped to open up the community as well. Now when I say “open up the community,” ah--I think, and this is just my perception--the old boy network, good old boy network, was in place, and tradition, and conservative atmosphere, was ah, more or less, um, . . . prevalent throughout some parts of Western as well. Because we’d seen the things at play. And, ah, it meant something different to me than it did for, some other people. I remember there were some college students from Alabama, who came and of course Western used to play Dixie and wave the flag when we’d make a touchdown. Well, we wouldn’t stand, some of us--the majority of black students wouldn’t stand. Well, this other person from Mississippi, got up, a student there, couldn’t understand why we felt the way we did. And we, ah, explained to them about our feelings, about what the flag stood for—slavery--the, ah, some of the tragedies that occurred. Now, during that time we were, really aware that, you know, everything with the South was not bad--as a matter of fact, some of the things in the South were better than in the North. And racism did occur there, but overt racism was more in the South, and covert racism was more in the North than it was here. And, um, . . . But, after explaining that, I think that in expressing our desire, that the flags come down, and Dixie not be sung, was very important. I think Howard Bailey, and some of the other concerned students there, ah, Don Alton, who were, you know, involved on campus at the time, went and talked with some of the administration; and expressed our concern and our sensitivity about this issue. Ah, they began to filter down. Dr. Thompson, and Dr. Hugo Downing were stepping into that. And, ah, now some of the other presidents, I don’t know, I didn’t have any …

END SIDE ONE TAPE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE

LEWIS: . . . About my experience at Western--the integration there took place slowly, too. And I was a part of, I guess a movement, ah, to get a, black fraternity up on the Hill. And, ah, many of the blacks that were up there, um, were interested in forming a fraternity, but they were drawn between the two, the Kappas, and the Keys. Or the, ah, Omegas. But, I guess in our wisdom we realized we couldn’t do it by ourselves, so we combined together and formed the Kappa Que Club. And, ah, so, uh, initially, we were trying to get a fraternity on campus. And we didn’t care, really, which one went in. We applied for both, but we said, ever which one would go, would go. So we did band together and addressed the, uh, administration, and went through some changes. And shortly after that, I got married, so my interest in a fraternity sort of dwindled. But I supported some of the others who continued on and like I said, Don Alton and ah, ah, Howard Bailey were some of the initial, and, ah, leaders. In that particular group, there were some others as well. But, ah, John Potter, James Colby, and some others, there were others; and if I start naming a few I’ll probably get the, they were some. And, ah, they approached the administration and eventually got to have a fraternity on campus. But, that was some of the beginning, I, I guess people up there. And I think with that, Western began to make a change. It was a little more diverse. Course they always had an international, um, club, up there. But, generally didn’t include the blacks. I mean, there were blacks from Africa, and so on; but they didn’t consider them I, I guess, ah, blacks associated with through the United States. Or, that was seen as totally different. But that was interesting, too, going through some of the things that they, ah – there were very few faculty members who were black, up there, as I remember there were only, I think, three, ah, when I, three or four when I started. Of course Dr. Jones was up there, Dr. Yokley , ah, there was a doctor in psychology and--I can’t think of his name right off, and there was another one, I think, he taught, ah, home economics. But, ah, those two left, ah, later on, and went to universities. And then after that, to, like, there were some other blacks added to the faculty slowly and now they have, I think, a fair amount, and some in the administration, and, ah, Western is integrated or accepted that, over the years. And I think, ah, Bowling Green, with Western, with the economy, with GM plant, with the influx of people, and, ah, not only that, internally, I think the people in Bowling Green, ah, who lived here, the blacks, ah, wanted to see some changes.

Ah, speaking of that, I know what you’ve experienced with Jonesville. And I remember when Jonesville was there. And then I remember going to church over at Mt. Zion, and ah, going through the neighborhood, a black one at that time. And I wasn’t fully aware as to what was happening, you know, then, later on I was enlightened. But, I, I didn’t realize that some of the property was, ah, acquired like it was, and in the way that it was. And, that’s, that saddens me now, I, at the time, I guess my, ah, ignorance, ah, there’s another term I used to describe, too, saw it as maybe progress, or whatever. But I, I wasn’t fully aware of, what was happening in that community, that it was being lost. And, ah, since it, now, I’ve, just talked to some people who lived there, and, I found out the total truth about it. And I think that Western has made some steps to recognize and compensate it. But I don’t believe they’ve done enough. Ah, I, I still think there’s some thing, it would be good if Western established, a, Jonesville scholarship. One of their own and funding. I mean that would be the least I would think. And, ah, there are several of us who are Western graduates, you know, who, ah, would support that. And, ah, I wouldn’t think it would be, guilt money, but I, I think it would be the right thing to do for Western. And, ah, many of the people who probably, had the idea, or directed that, ah, probably haven’t thought of just making way for the community, not caring who or what, or maybe some people that they thought were ( ). But, ah, in reality, ah, people who live there, helped make Bowling Green really what it is. But there’s some thoughts on that, too.

RAY: Well, I want to thank you for your time, and for the interview.

LEWIS: Okay, okay, I’m all ready to teach, just running, and running, and running, I don’t know what it is. I hope I gave you some accurate facts, and, ah, best of my recollection, of course, over time sometimes, well, you forget some things or don’t see things quite as they are. Sometimes you get older, a better picture (laughter both). But, ah, ah, I, hope that, I gave you some information and tried to remember things as accurately as I could.

RAY: Good, good.

LEWIS: If I think of anything else, can I give you a call, too, or …

RAY: Okay.

LEWIS: If I find when I go through some of these papers, I can give you some, maybe some specific dates, as, ah …

RAY: Well, that would be good.

LEWIS: I have done a little resume to try to get some of the information.

RAY: Mm-hmm, good.

LEWIS: And, ah, some of the people who were involved. So, uh, I hope will help out some, enlighten some other people. You know, when, ah, I came to Western, like I say, there were no blacks in the administration, and only, I think, about three faculty, members who, ah, taught. But, the majority of the other blacks were, ah, they were in the maintenance. And, I remember Ray Woods being, ( ), over there and serving at the log cabin. And, ah, there was the cleaning staff of the university, and, ah, they were limited in, like, some of the areas where they could work in. Um, but, that was, uh, something, you know, you perceive as you go in, see, where the blacks are, and, ah, what levels that they’re in. Now I think Howard Bailey was one of the first administrators, ah, black administrators, to be at Western. If not the first. But, ah, that’s my perception as I saw it. And, the interesting thing is the student--and that this is when Howard came--because I think the year that I came, in sixty-six, there were a number of blacks who took advantage of--then there was the National Defense Law and there was an opportunity to go to college and borrow the money and then pay it back. And I know there were a number of students from Louisville, and, ah, the only reason I found out about it, was I was a member, of the Key Club. And of course I was the only black (laughs) at all, in the Key Club; and, ah, there was a speaker who happened to be at the Key Club, ah, speaking. And he was informing the members--who were all white except myself--about the National Defense Law Program. And I had not initially thought of going to school, because, you know, there was no way. Mom and Dad, ah, couldn’t afford it. I didn’t have a job, uh, as I said, my other brothers had gone to the military, and I thought well maybe I could go and get on the GI Bill. Well, had I not been at that meeting, I would not have found out about this, because the quote counselor at the school was a counselor, but only for the elite and the white. Ah, when we, the blacks were in to ask him some questions, he was very sharp, to the point, and very little information was given to us. That we felt. You know, perception can be part of it, too. But, uh, I shared that with a couple other people who then made applications as well. And I think there were three or four of the blacks from my school, who came here on the National Defense Law. And, I don’t, I don’t, I wouldn’t take full credit for saying that I told them about it, but I did make them aware of some things I found out about it. So, initially, you know, that was a way to get here. And, during that time (doorbell rings), we talked with some people (tape clicks)

. . . ah, yes the counselors, don’t. . . really guide, ah, a lot of the black kids like they do some of the others. And, um, one thing that I found out with my kids, was, that, ah, we told them not to depend on anyone else but themselves. Now, they should go and inquire, and then try to find out some information; but some of them were limited in what information they would give you. And, ah, so we heard some horror stories. When, an, this was as we started to go out, and did some research on getting scholarship information and so on--the counselors who had inadvertently, or maybe on purpose, had, ah, failed to mail in the information; and on time, so some of them missed the deadline. So we made sure that ever what was going in, we would have, so if it was anybody’s fault it was our own. Did not depend on the counselors. And like I say I’m not sure how much counseling actually goes on out here. Some are interested in the kids going to college, but I’m not so sure a number of our kids, some number of the black kids, actually, get some of the guidance that they need in helping to select a university, or wherever they might attend, a business school, vocational school, whatever, that they get. And that may be typical of the guidance program. Ah, and I know, ah, there’s a couple of teachers out there who are trying to work with the black kids, and of course Leroy Brown is one, and of course this is now, it’s not then, before I say there were no black counselors at all, I think there’s one now, Mrs. Roy, but you know she can only do so much by herself. And then she’s only working with one-fourth of the class who’s out there. And, ah, I don’t know what pressures might be on her, you know, ah, to, ah, assist the kids that are quote going somewhere or somebody--ah, let me jump back a little bit.

Um, on Western. Um, with blacks that came that year. There were a number of us living in the dormitories. And, um, because, as far as living off campus, the only ones that I think that lived off campus lived with black families. And, ah, we were the first, ah, group that lived in the Barnes Campbell ( ) Buildings. They were new then, they were some of the new dormitories then. And, it was a spring day, and we--at the time--we were hanging out the window. And all of a sudden, we happened to look up. And, ah, all we guys, were--these were boys’ dorms--all the boys were hanging out the window ‘cause it was such a nice day. And we noticed right above us, there were some blacks above us; and below us there were blacks hanging out the windows, but on the right and left they were all white. And there was this pattern, we lived in, 309 Barnes Campbell. Ah, but in 209, and on up, they were all black. But there was one guy, who was black, and a white, who was in, I think 409, above us; but the rest were black all the way up. Now, then, there were a few blacks, in some other parts of the building, but this was one thing that we noticed right off. And it was, too much, ah, to be coincidental Part of that had to have been planned. Ah, I mean, no matter what, we never really did, really ask; but I mean, ah, it was very evident with all of us in that 09 area, that that’s they way it was. And that was one thing I remember now. Who was in charge of that, I don’t know; but, ah, that was in Barnes Campbell. Now ( ) Lawrence, I’m not sure how they were, but Barnes Campbell, I do remember that one day. And it was like a light going off, all of us (laughs) realizing, hey, wait a minute, all the blacks are in right here. Now there were a few other blacks in other parts, but, ah, I guess that was some racism then. And, ah, I’m not sure why it was set up like that. But on the application they did ask, “What’s your racial background?” And you know the housing was, ah, set up through the housing department. Now, after that, I think, oh, . . .three years later, um, they had a black dorm director. The first one was Ed Goins, I think he’s in Louisville, and, um, but by then it seems like the blacks were scattered, at least I know it was in the men’s dormitory. And I, I lived in Beth’s Village ( ) to watch, you know, some of the buildings go up. But, ah, it was, it was amazing, ah, that day that we saw that and we never really did address it. Ah, I guess we accepted it ( ). But, ah, that was, ah, an interesting thing that occurred there. And some of the racism that was, ah existing there. Now some of the people, some students, were very open, and then some of the faculty adjusted. But I do remember one faculty member--I had four classes, in education class. And I was writing a paper on integration and I had misspelled it. And--misspelled integration, and he made it a point in class to say--and he didn’t direct me out--but he, he, you could tell it was racism coming out. And he said, he said, “Yes, some people who want integration, cannot even spell it right.” I knew who he was talking about. And that was my case in not checking my paper, but you better believe every time after that I checked it. And, um, I felt like he was zeroing in. Of course it wasn’t many blacks on campus, with the number of students that were attending there. It was less than ten percent easily. But, ah, we did get together and we--we communicated with some of the blacks locally, who, ah, went up there. And they kept us informed about the community, and you know, things like that; but, ah, that’s been something I, I remember. And this is after I got out of Western: ah, my friends and I--we had--I had gone to a couple of, ah, I guess they’re nightclubs, around here, with some white friends. And everything seemed all right, and I again, I guess I assumed everything was all right. So, this black couple, and my wife and I, we were out, so I said, “Why don’t we go to--I think it was then--Manhattan Towers?” We were going to get dinner, and you know, maybe have a little drink; and then, ah, dance and so on. So, we went out there, and as we walked in an arm went across the door. “Place is full.” I looked in, and there were a bunch of chairs that were not--and I said, “No,” I said. He said, “They’re reserved.” And, ah, so the friend who was with us, he said, “No, I sort of figured this would happen.” He said, “Nah, let’s go, we don’t want any trouble, let’s go.” And that made me aware that things had, you know, not really changed. And I could have fought it. But you know, I didn’t initially, but ah, I did not go back into that place at all, not even with my friends. And some of my white friends asked--and I just flat told them--I said, “I wasn’t accepted there when I went, ah, by myself.” I said, “With you all, yeah, they’ll let me in.” I said, “But by myself they wouldn’t.” And, ah, I’m sure the management’s probably changed, but, ah, you know, that was [unclear]. And, you know, as far as feeling angry about it, you know, ah, I was disappointed in the way that I was treated, but, uh, I learned something from that. And I think sometimes you can learn things that are more profitable than getting upset and angry. And I came to college for action, it’s likely ( ) that it worked out with their own problems. But you know, I wondered, I said, ah, “Here this is my fourth time tonight ( ). I don’t consider myself a radical.” I didn’t even consider myself a civil rights person at the time, but I said, “Now, if I’m as conservative as I am, and been denied, three times, four times; and only doing it one out of four times reporting it, I wonder how many other people have experienced the same thing?” And when I was with the Human Rights Commission we did--and I started investigating, some of the complaints in the housing and employment. Ah, we had pretty good review in education. And, ah, we--I, I did find out that there were some, ah, racism occurring; and matter of fact I remember one case, again I investigated, and again, it was owned by a group of people. And, ah, I suppose it’s all right to use the names, ( ) Starks, he was ( ); and during that time there was a group of people who, um, were denying him a house. And I had it—because I had been through the experience—I told him what type of documentation we needed. And at that time, um, the state had a pool of testers. And see Bowling Green didn’t have a pool of testers, white testers, black testers, to go back, because in order to establish a case you had to make sure it wasn’t simply because, ah, that maybe he came after somebody, whatever, because in some cases I’m sure there were some problems--that was, you know, before a person got there. But, in order to prove it, you had t prove that it was available and denied to you strictly because of race and not because of something else. So, ah, we contacted the, ah, couple, the local couple here, to go--a white couple. And, they checked on the same property. And then came back, and wrote out their report; and we asked them to go back. And it was available. And to start we went initially, but then they were denied. Then they said it’d been rented, and when the white couple went it was available, and then it wasn’t, you know. So, ah, we got them on that. And ah, and they made it all documented ( ), but that opened my eyes to that there were still some segments around Bowling Green that were not opened. And after, and, like I say, this is my perception, seems like after people in the community ( ), there were less reports. Now I wasn’t initially involved kind of whole in the commission, there were some other things I was doing, too, and in the housing; but they did make reports on how many cases of discrimination were related to housing, education, and employment. And it seemed like the numbers did decrease. And whether it was people were used to reporting or whatever, those factors ( ), but did seem ( ) after that. And there were some incidents, and like I say I think they made me stronger and made me aware more than anything else. I try not to let some things excite me or get me mad, but some things do. And, ah, I guess I was disappointed more than anything else, because it destroyed the image that I had of Bowling Green at the time. But, like, since then there’s been a lot of good people, it seems like Bowling Green has accepted--when they wanted to--for economic reasons or what. But, ah, one thing related to that case: I was still teaching, and, the daughter of one of the gentlemen who was the initial contact--he was the contact person--ah, came to me during the time of the investigation and said, ah, why--how did she put it? “Why are you treating my dad and mom like that? Why are you treating them unfairly, and causing them to be sued? And I said, “No, honey, there’s some particulars of the case. And you know I can’t discuss it with you.” I said, “But then you should ask your parents to explain it to you.” And I wasn’t sure that they would [laughs], but I, I said, “I’m not at liberty to discuss the case with you because you’re a minor, and then, too, of course you’re not directly involved.” But I wanted to explain to the child that, yes, your parents were dealing in discrimination along with some other families. But, ah, being the position that I was in, you know, I couldn’t. And now--now that was--I had to laugh a little bit, because I just wanted to tell her, to enlighten her; but I didn’t, for the ethics of it, and in the position I was with her was teacher to student. And I couldn’t let that cross over. And, ah, that can be hard, too.

RAY: Well, thank you for your time.

LEWIS: Well, you’re more than welcome.

END OF SIDE TWO TAPE ONE

END OF INTERVIEW