Oral History Interview with Greta Fishback

MAXINE RAY: This is Maxine Ray, conducting an interview for the Civil Rights Project, sponsored by the Kentucky Oral History Commission, Kentucky Historical Society. I am interviewing Mrs. Greta Fishback, at her home here in . Today’s date is June 28, 2001. Now, Mrs. Fishback, tell me your full name please?

GRETA FISHBACK: My name is Greta Parish Fishback. That’s my full name.

RAY: What is your date of birth, please?

FISHBACK: And I was born September the 2nd, 1950.

RAY: Were you born in ?

FISHBACK: Born here in . Actually I was born in, uh, Rockfield. It was , but I was born in Rockfield.

RAY: I see. Okay. Your parents’ names?

FISHBACK: Parents’ names. My father’s name is ( ) Parish, and my mother’s name Sylvia Louise Duncan Parish.

RAY: What’s your occupation?

FISHBACK: And I am employed, currently employed as a Guidance Counselor and I had been teaching prior to that, for twenty-eight years, so my occupation was teacher.

RAY: Right, now I’m going to ask you a little bit about your education.

FISHBACK: When I started elementary school, in the new constructed . It had been constructed one year prior to my entering the school. So I entered in 1956. And it was an all—first-grade through twelfth grade, school, elementary and high school. And that was elementary school. And in 1965, High Street was, actually wasn’t closed as a school; but all of the high school students were forced to attend Bowling Green High School, because of the integration of the schools.

RAY: Did, uh, where’d you go to college?

FISHBACK: Oh, and then, in 1967, I graduated from Bowling Green High, and in 1967 I went to Western, , I enrolled in . And in 1971 I graduated from Western with a degree, in, a B.S. degree in Elementary Education. And then I went back to Western, (laughs), shortly thereafter--you have to finish your Master’s Degree in five years--and I finished the Master’s program in 1976. And, then just recently, about five years ago, I finished my ( ) program at .

RAY: Good. Well, while you were at, uh, Western, or either at high school, did you go to a segregated high school, was high school segregated?

FISHBACK: Yes, High Street was all-black, it was a strictly black high school. And in nineteen—I’m not exactly sure what year--but in nineteen sixty—I must have still been in eighth grade; so I would say it was probably 1963, they gave all the students a choice. You could either go to Bowling Green High, to the high school there, and integrate--the black kids could--or we could stay there, at High Street. And at that particular time, it was all-black. In fact, we had blacks from , we had blacks from Scottsville. Now, just in the high school. Now in the elementary, they were, most of them, all of the black students were local students. But in the high school part of the program there were students from surrounding counties, because they were not attending the black high schools--the white high schools in their, their respective counties.

RAY: Okay, so when you went to high school it was segregated?

FISHBACK: It was definitely segregated.

RAY: Okay.

FISHBACK: All black.

RAY: Um, well, after you got to Western, was it the first – time in an integrated school?

FISHBACK: Actually, no, in 1965, High Street was closed as a high school, and all of the high school students, all the black high school students were forced to go to Bowling Green High. Now prior to that, with, we had choices and some of the black students did go to high—to Bowling Green High, to start attending there, but not very many. And I think because of the rules and I’m not sure, at that time I really didn’t completely understand; because of the rules that--and not enough black students were going to Bowling Green High, to consider it an integrated high school. So they forced all of the black students at High Street to then go to Bowling Green High. So I went to Bowling Green High, and. . . that was really my first encounter with, ah, white teachers. I think there were a couple at High Street before it was, ah, the high school was closed, but I didn’t come into contact with any of them. I think Mr. Brown, actually, was the art teacher there at High Street for a brief moment. Mr. Brown, the, who was, was finally the Superintendent of Bowling Green City Schools, but Mr. Brown was the art teacher, but I never did have an art class under him. And there were a few white teachers. I did have Mr. Alsop I remember, in the choir. And I can remember, he really didn’t like to come down there and teach choir. He left Bowling Green High and came to High Street and did choir. I think he decided we really didn’t know how to sing.

RAY: Oh my goodness. [Laughs.]

FISHBACK: [Laughs.] I don’t think he enjoyed that experience.

RAY: Uh-huh.

FISHBACK: And he was one I remember, one day, he had a, he was going to put us in voices, I remember, and he would play chords on the piano, and you had to sing what he played. And I remember when it was my turn, just really being nervous. And when I went to the piano, of course, I could sing what he played. It wasn’t really a big deal, I could do it. And I remember him looking at me when I was singing, saying, “Hmm, you can, you can hear music, can’t you? You do that very well.” And I said, “Oh, thank you.” And it seemed like it was sort of something that he was surprised to find. But we had to sing chords, I remember, and he—I--most of them did two chords, and he asked them to sit down, but I think I did about six before he asked me to sit down. And they, of course, got more difficult with each chord.

RAY: Oh, I see.

FISHBACK: Yeah, I thought that was kind of interesting. And then--it’s--went to Bowling Green High; and of course, all the staff, I think they were forced to take all the staff that would--the black staff, that were teaching high school courses, did go to Bowling Green High. But, it seemed like it worked out that all of my teachers that year were white. I don’t know how that happened, except they had come down before the end of the school year in 1965, administered tests to all the high school students, they administered tests. And we took those tests for two or three days, and they were using them for placement. And that was how they placed you in the programs. And when I got to Bowling Green High, I looked around and I didn’t see anybody I knew. Everybody was white. And I ended up being pretty much the only black student in mostly all of my classes. So it was a new experience for me.

RAY: How did the, the teachers up there accept you, or treat you, or--?

FISHBACK: Well, now, I think on the most part, they were all polite. But I think expectations were that we couldn’t do, we couldn’t perform. We weren’t capable. And I don’t know, I think they were sort of leery as to what we really could do. And my first encounter being in a new school--I never will forget it, being lost--and here I am looking for my class. And I walk around and I think I’m in the right place, and of course being nervous--this is my first year in the new high school--and I, at this point I was a junior, so I wasn’t, it wasn’t like being a freshman. I should have known where I was going, and been, uptown with what I was doing and be able to just walk right on in and take a seat. But I was lost, and so I had my program, my schedule in my hand, and I stopped at the door, and I asked the lady--it was an English teacher--if I was in the right place. And she says, “Oh, I don’t know, let me see your schedule.” She says, “probably not, let me see your schedule.” And so I handed her my schedule, and she looked at it, she said, “Yes, this is the class you’re supposed to be in.”

RAY: Hmm.

FISHBACK: As if she were surprised that I had been placed there. But, I think, according to the test scores, that that’s where I was supposed to be. Because I could do what they could do. And I made As just like they did. (laughs)

RAY: (Laughs) Good, good. Now after you got to Western, did you face any kind of, uh, blatant racial. . . tensions, or anything?

FISHBACK: I, I think still again, everybody was polite, and again at Western, in 1971, there were very, very few blacks on campus. Now they of course had recruited, ah, Haskins and Smith and basketball players, but I guess the rest of us just kind of came (laughs) along back?.

RAY: (Laughs)

FISHBACK: And I, I did, I never will forget, an English teacher--and I cannot remember her name, and it was my sophomore year in college, and it was a writing class; after you take the--it was an English literature writing class. And we had to respond to a literature piece--write a response to the literature piece. And I had worked on it so much that my mother said, “If you change that one more time”-- and I just kept rewording it and rewriting it because I’d read it and something would be wrong,. I said, “No let me fix this.” And I guess I worked on it for two weeks. And it was time to turn it in. I turned it in on time. And at the end of the period the teacher asked--and I still do not remember her name--asked me and two other white guys to stay after class. And, you know, I had this big A+ on this paper. I figure she was going to give me a major pat on my back and tell me what a great job I had done. And the two guys that stayed were curious as to why I stayed because one of the boys looked at me, he said, “Why did she ask you to stay?” I said, “Well, I don’t know.” And he said, “Well, we didn’t turn our papers in.” He says, “You got your paper back, didn’t you?” I said, “Yes I got an A+ on it.” He said, “Wonder why she wanted you to stay?” Well I had no idea. So, when she, dismissed the class, and I think one of the other students asked her a question after class about an assignment or something; and so she turned around to us, and she turned to the two white guys, and says, “Now, you all have not turned in your assignment. It will be due in, whatever the next class period was,” I think it was a Tuesday-Thursday, maybe, they were due in that next period. And she said, “And I’ll dock you a letter grade.” And then they left. And then she turned to me and she said, “And who wrote your paper?”

RAY: Mmm.

FISHBACK: And I, looked at her kind of puzzled; but when you think about it, I was probably seventeen years old, I just kind of looked puzzled. And of course at that point I kind of smiled and said, “Well, I did.” And she says, “Oh, you did?” She said--and I did do not remember my, 102 teacher’s name, but she asked me who I had for 102, and I told her. And I had heard in, when I had 102, that this was the lady not to have. All the basketball players had dropped out of her class ‘cause she was too tough. She was the hardest lady on campus, and if you got her you’re supposed to [laughs] get out of her class anyway possible. ‘Cause she was tough. But I had survived her class and I had an A in her class. So she asked me, I told her who I had, and she says, “Oh, what grade did you get.” I said, “I made an A.” And when I said that, she says, “Ooh, well I guess you did write this paper.” And she handed it back to me and I left.

RAY: How did you feel when she said that to you?

FISHBACK: Oh, I think today I would probably have hit the ceiling and called the Dean, or the President; but in nineteen--that would have been 1968--I just kind of--just really didn’t know how to take it, because I just wasn’t--I don’t know, I just really didn’t know how to respond to it. Uh, I guess, I don’t know, I guess it really caught me off guard. Now, today, I would have really let it—(laughs)—‘cause, you know, time, and—time and passing, stuff, and I probably would have just give them a piece of my mind, or probably would have reported it; but I never reported her. I just went on, and thought it was strange that she thought I wasn’t capable of writing and I had written it. (Laughs) My mother was proof! (Laughs.)

RAY: Did you have any other kind of incidents at Western?

FISHBACK: And then later on, and interestingly enough, I ran into this lady at a workshop. She remembered me. And, I guess she had good memories of me, I guess, mine were kind of tainted, because, uh, I had--it was near the end of, of my studies at Western, it was probably in late seventy or may be early seventy-one, and it was a statistics class. And it was near the end of my training and everything, and how to do numbers and rank students in classes; and do the bell curve, and all those things that you do to evaluate students. And that was basically the gist of the course. I can’t remember the title, and I don’t remember her name, either, but she was--what we did, after instruction, she gave us a test. And she said, this is how you can rank your students with your test scores. And she took her test scores and ranked us. And, uh, after the ranking, I was second in the whole class. There were probably about thirty kids in there. And two or three of them were friends of mine. ‘Course back then, the enrollment was increasing, and there were, then you weren’t the only black person in your class, there were two or three of you, that you kind of knew. And everybody kind of knew each other ‘cause there were so few of us, too. And I was in with two other girls that I knew, but one was a really good friend of mine. And she had, uh, signed up for the class so we would be together. ‘Cause she said she’d let me help her (smiles). But, anyway. But she ranked us, and after the first test, and then, for some reason, and again, not being totally aware of what’s going on, she moved the girl—I sat behind the girl that was in first. The girl that sat in front of me was ranked first. I sat behind the white girl. And she had told us we could share earlier. And she had told us she was valedictorian of her class, in our first class meeting, we had to share something about us. And I had found out through that that she was valedictorian of her class. And she always did well. So she was ranked first, I was ranked second, and I sat behind her. So, in the course of, the class, and I guess this was the justification for the teacher, too, you know, you can move students around, blah blah blah. So she had her to move away from me. And when we took the second test--now she didn’t move my friend who was on my right, she stayed by me--but on the second test, she did the same ranking; and she ranked us according to that test. And I think that she did move, put the scores together and rank them that way. But after the second test, I was ranked first. And this other girl, I think, was second. And so, after class, I mean, she announced it to the class; and of course I’m proud again, because I’m--but it was math class, I’m good in math. I knew I could do math, and you know, I wasn’t surprised I was ranked first, but—I did, I’m sure I had a nice big smile on my face when she said I was first. (laughs; Ray laughs) You know, you look around, the whole room is practically white and you’re first, that’s really an accomplishment.

RAY: Yes.

FISHBACK: So, after class--she didn’t say it during class--after class, when everybody was leaving, she stopped me and my friend as we were going out the door. And she said to us, she says, “Does she always do this well?” And my friend said, “Yes, she does, she makes me sick.” (laughter both) And we went on, out the door. So, you know, when you think about it, in terms of running into any racial encounters, at that moment I still didn’t think about that being a put-down. But in essence, it really was. And it was subtle. And like I said, they were, for the most part, really nice people, but just still those undertones. And one other thing, I, thought about, is, because you had asked me about interviewing, was, after I started my Master’s work, I was in a class. And this would have been—because I finished my degree, my Master’s degree in seventy-six, this was probably in seventy-five, and I think the hype in seventy-five was that they were going to start bussing white children to integrate the schools. Because from sixty-five to seventy-five it had kind of fallen apart; and it was now, what they considered white schools here, black schools here, it was segregated again. So what they were going to do was bus the white kids back into inner cities for segregation. And there was a big outcry, nationwide, about, this was not a good thing to do. Bussing those kids for miles in the morning, miles in the afternoon, just, simply, to, to change numbers and those kinds of things. And all these, there were lots of white people who were totally, totally against it. And I don’t know how it came up, but it had, came up in my class. And there was lots of discussion in this particular class about how wrong it was to do this; how it was detrimental to the kids, it wasn’t going to be good for their studies; and it wasn’t going to be the best educational opportunities for them, and they just thought it was awful. And I remember sitting though the whole class, the professor kept looking at me. And sitting through the whole class, and he kept watching me, because I kept squirming. (laughter both) And I’d shift from one side of my chair to another, and I thought, “Oh, I cannot believe this.” So, finally, I spoke up. And I said, “You all are so concerned about these white kids being bussed. Where were you all when they were bussing the black kids from one county to another so they could go to segregated schools? If it was wrong, if it’s wrong now, then it was wrong then,” and nobody said a word. And finally the professor at that that point, said, “Well, I wondered how long you were going to sit there and stay quiet. (laughter both) I said, “Well, I had all I could take! And I had to say something. But nobody had any answer”. The interesting thing was that nobody had an answer, because it was wrong then and it was wrong years ago, too. So, that was one thing that I thought of that I didn’t, [laughs] didn’t mention earlier.

RAY: Good. Uh, do you belong to any kind of, uh, civil organizations or--?

FISHBACK: Well, now, actually, no, I’ve, I’ve not been an active NAACP member, uh, I do belong to a local club here that, and I guess it’s predominantly black, but I don’t know who’s been doing any black things in George Washington Carver Center; but I am a member of AKA, but as far as any of the civic organizations I’m not an active member.

RAY: Do you, can you think of anything else you want to say that I haven’t--you were going to tell me about a babysitter?

FISHBACK: Oh, yeah, my, my—the babysitter! Okay. I had, uh, my first son was born--his birthday’s in, in October, okay, of seventy-two. And he was born in--and my mother-in-law kept him from October till school was out the next year. But I decided that was too much of an, an imposition on her, ‘cause she was the minister’s wife, and she liked to go to church and things; and that was an imposition on her. So I decided that I was going to have to find daycare for him. So, in the summer, I decided I’d start early so I’d have a place when school started in August. And so, in the summer I’d just start calling around looking for a place, saying, “He’s nine months old, very mature nine months old, he could sit up and just walk around, and kind of take care of himself, hold his head up, do all kinds of things.” Well, of course mothers are always proud, and I thought he was a mature nine-month-old. He might not have been that mature, but I thought he was. But anyway, I started calling around, and I called and it was College Hill Daycare, it’s no longer open. I called that particular daycare because I found out I made too much money for the one that was located on Third Street, and there was another one that was for low-income. And I found out I didn’t qualify for those. So I’m looking frantically for a daycare center because school’s going to start in about four weeks, and I needed to find a place. So I called the daycare center and I asked them on the phone if they have openings; I told them about this mature nine month old. And she said, “Yes, they had openings. They’d be more than happy they told me.” She told me how much it costs, and everything. And I said, “Well, I’d like to check and see what kind of”--because I hadn’t been in the place—“and I’d like to look around, see what kind of facilities, you had.” Because this is my first child, you know, you want to take very good care of him. So, she said, “Yeah, you’re welcome to come anytime you’d like, just come on in, drop on in. You don’t need an appointment.” I said, “Oh, okay, fine.” So, the next day, I, take my nine month old, and drive to this day care center. And when I walked in the door she looks up--the lady that’s there--and I made a mistake when I made the call, I didn’t get the lady’s name, but I didn’t know it was a mistake at that time. So when I walked in, the lady greeted me and I said, “How’re you doing?” And she says, “Oh, are you looking for a job?” And I said, “No, I, I had talked with someone yesterday about an opening for a nine-month-old. And I was just coming in to look around the place and see what kind of things, and facilities you have; and just kind of look around.” And she says, “Oh, we don’t have any openings.” She said, “I don’t know who you talked to, but they must have made a mistake.” She said, “But we don’t have any openings for nine-month olds.” And I said, “Oh, you don’t?” She said, “Well, you’re, you’re welcome to look around.” And I said, “Well, okay, I’ll, I’ll look around.” So I kind of, looked around, and I was just stunned; because I thought now yesterday you had openings but now you don’t? Well who in the world did I talk to? But I just thought--decided, well--and for all I know it could be the same lady. And I don’t really know. But anyway, as I was leaving, she stopped me, she was really nice and polite; and she came--she stopped me, she said, “Ma’am, you’re looking for a daycare center?” I said, “Yeah, I need one in about three weeks.” She says, “Well, I thought so, and here is a list of some people that I wrote down,” she says, “And they’ll take anybody’s child.” (Ray laughs) And so she handed me the list. She handed me the list, and I took the list, and I really did call. I called, I went by one of the places that she gave me, was the one that was there, I guess it’s still there, on . I went by there, but then I called the other one, after the--after I went by the one on . I thought, “Okay, I guess I’ll just call this next one.” And when I called her, I told her I was black, ‘cause I felt that I needed to tell her. And she was kind of insulted. I said, “Do I need to tell you that I’m black, while I’m talking to you? (laughter both) So you can decide whether you have room for me or not?” And she asked me when I got out there why I felt like that was necessary. And I said, “Well, I should have told the other one that I was black and apparently she didn’t know I was until she saw me. And when she saw me she didn’t have the space for my child. Simply because we were black.”

RAY: ( ) Now you’re older now. Then, did you—(laughter Fishback)--did you make any kind of noise about that?

FISHBACK: Somebody said I should have made him--let him stay one day, just, just to prove a point. And I think they did have a black child staying there. In fact, I think, but she looked white.

RAY: Ooh.

FISHBACK: And I don’t know if they knew she was black. Mom and Dad both could have passed for white people. So I don’t know if they knew she was black or not. ‘Cause she was—and no, I didn’t make any noise. I either—somebody said you should have reported it, and I should’ve. Because it wasn’t right. But, I decided that I would not have let my child stay ten minutes and I took my child and left and went on. So I didn’t--I didn’t--I didn’t--but now, no, when you think about it, I was still young. I was twenty-two. And back in sixty, what, seventy-one, seventy-two, I think black people, for the most part, except for the Dr. King, were kind of quiet and soft-spoken. And just kind of took those things in stride, and made up their minds as to whether it was a place they’d go back to or whether it was a place they wouldn’t and just kind of went on. But they did happen. They really did happen.

RAY: I’m not surprised at all, like ( ) would say, “I’m surprised, because I’m not, I’m not surprised that that happened.” Well, if you don’t have anything else, I thank you for your interview.

FISHBACK: I can’t think of anything else.

RAY: Okay. . .

FISHBACK: Right off the top of my head.

RAY: Good.

FISHBACK: So, I hope I’ve been of help,

RAY: Yes, you have.

FISHBACK: . . .and hope I’ve said something that’ll be beneficial to somebody.

RAY: Good, good, thank you so much. Thank you for your time.

END SIDE ONE TAPE ONE

END OF INTERVIEW