Oral History Interview with Newton Thomas

BETSY BRINSON: This is an interview with Mr. Newton Thomas, which takes place at his residence in Frankfort, Kentucky and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Mr. Thomas, would you give me your full name, please, so I can get a voice level?

NEWTON THOMAS: Well my full name is Newton John Thomas.

BRINSON: Okay.

[Tape clicks off and on.]

BRINSON: And would you give me, please, your date of birth again?

THOMAS: My date of birth is March the twenty-ninth nineteen twelve.

BRINSON: And that makes you how old?

THOMAS: That makes me ninety years old.

BRINSON: Ninety years old. Did you ever think you’d live to be ninety years old?

THOMAS: I had hoped to.

BRINSON: Hoped to. [Laughs.] Okay. Well thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. Um, let’s start, please, by, uh, a little bit about your—where, where were you born?

THOMAS: I was born in Georgetown, Kentucky, Scott County.

BRINSON: Okay. And were you born at home? Or in a hospital? Or. . . ?

THOMAS: That I don’t know.

BRINSON: You don’t know.

THOMAS: No.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I’m not aware.

BRINSON: Uh, what do you know about your ancestors, Mr. Thomas?

THOMAS: Well, . . . I don’t know too much about many of them. I, I remember my—the one I remember most, I remember a grandmother. And, ah, . . . I. . . I, don’t remember any of my. . . father’s children.

BRINSON: Well, do you remember stories—that you heard about them, like where they lived, or how they made their living, um.

THOMAS: Ah. . . Now, I know that, ah, my—in, my, my mother--now my mother was, ah, did, did day service. And, uh, now then, I, I didn’t live with my father, my father and mother had, uh, separated before I was old enough to even know who they—who he was. But I do know something about his, what he did, he, he left Georgetown, uh. . . evidently before I was old enough to even know it. And went to Ohio and chauffeured for Governor Cox of Ohio.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Now I can remember when he came back to Georgetown, he had been to a mechanic school. Governor Cox had sent him to a mechanic school. When he came back to Georgetown, he opened up a garage. And that’s the first time I just, really knew, who my father was.

BRINSON: And how old, about, were you at that time that he came back?

THOMAS: Oh, when he came back I guess I was about ten or twelve years old.

BRINSON: Okay. Did you have any brothers and sisters?

THOMAS: Oh, yes I did. Now we have, had, uh, two families.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm?

THOMAS: Now, my family, from--with, my mother, my mother’s clan; I had a brother and three sisters. And, uh, all of those—I, I still have one sister that’s still living; and lives in Georgetown, Kentucky, she’s ninety-four years old.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

BRINSON: And were you the youngest, the oldest, or where you—?

THOMAS: Ah, now, this, . . . first family, I was next to them, you see. I had one sister. . . that was younger than me.

BRINSON: And how about of the second family?

THOMAS: Of the second family, there were. . . two boys, and. . . three girls.

BRINSON: Hmm. Okay.

THOMAS: And, uh, all of that family, now, have passed.

BRINSON: Tell me a little bit about your education growing up.

THOMAS: I was in my early days when I started school. I went to James Avenue High School. That’s the name of the school in Georgetown. And elementary education was at Chambers Avenue High School and, uh, . . . I finished Chambers Avenue High School in 1931.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. That was the year you graduated?

THOMAS: Graduated from Chambers Avenue High School.

BRINSON: . . All your education at that that school?

THOMAS: The, the early education.

BRINSON: Yeah, right, right.

THOMAS: Yes, right.

BRINSON: And, how many were in your graduating class, approximately?

THOMAS: I, think there was, one of the largest classes they had, I think it was thirty-three.

BRINSON: Okay. Okay. Um, do you remember any of your favorite teachers growing up?

THOMAS: Yes, I do. [Laughs.] I know that there was one, one, uh, my eighth grade teacher, was a Miz James P. Lewis. Wilson. And she, uh, was quite impressive. At that particular time I know that we had to take, uh, test into high school. At the--it was a test, called the County Test, and we didn’t have any idea what it’s going be like. And I know she prepared us to the point where we didn’t have any, problem, in, uh, passing that test to enter into high school. And, then, uh, my principal. . . taught, uh, history. And he’s not only ah, in, in, inspired me as far as my education was concerned, but he helped me as far as leaving, uh, high school and going on to college. And I had, ah, another math teacher that was--oh, she, I’ve got to think of her name now--Uh. . . can’t, can’t, can’t think of the name now, but, uh, she was instrumental in doing a good job and giving me a background in math. As the results of it I was, uh, I did my . . . work in, my, my, uh, at Kentucky State in science and mathematics.

BRINSON: Okay. Um, did you, were you involved in any school athletics or extra-curricular activities?

THOMAS: Uh, I played football. Everybody was concerned that I was smaller than most other men my height at that particular time. I was the quarterback on the football team. And at that particular time I weighed a hundred and ten pounds and finally—I--playing football helped me to gain weight. That was the only sport that we had at that particular time. It, that’s, course back in those days it wasn’t too many schools that provided any athletics. But I did play in the band, I played in the school band.

BRINSON: What did you play?

THOMAS: I played the tuba.

BRINSON: The tuba. Okay.

THOMAS: And the only think about it, most of the time everybody thought it was right strange; I was the smallest one in the band with the largest horn.

BRINSON: And that’s right.

THOMAS: (Laughter both) And, uh, we, our band was, ah—Now this lady I’m telling you about, she was the one that organized the band, Mrs. Wilson. She was the one that organized the band and got us started on, on the road and playing in the band. I sang with the, uh, . . . I sang with the school Glee Club, and I sang with the quartet, the school quartet. And--everybody was surprised when they found out that I sang bass. I was smaller than some of the others, but I but I did sing bass.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Um, tell me, I’m assuming that you went to an all-black school?

THOMAS: That’s right, at that particular time, the thing that happened now, that I, tell everybody, where I lived, the white school was right across the street, all I would have had to done was to walk across the street and go to that school. But I had to walk about a half a mile to Chambers Avenue High School. At that particular time.

BRINSON: To James Avenue?

THOMAS: Chambers Avenue. Mm-hmm.

BRINSON: Chambers Avenue. Okay. And, were there any differences between the black and he white school that you were aware of growing up?

THOMAS: I didn’t know as far as, ah, the offerings that were concerned. I know, I don’t think, that they, uh, . . . I think all of our teachers that I was under, uh, had, had their degrees. And most of them we didn’t have any, any problems as far as offerings because then when I got ready to go to college I didn’t have any problems.

BRINSON: Mm. Okay. But in terms of things like science equipment, or new books, or. . .athletic uniforms?

THOMAS: You know, in those days, books weren’t furnished. You had to buy your books. But now my two sisters were ahead of me, and that helped us to pass the, books down. You, we passed the books down. And, uh, that way we had, had the books. We had a, good books. But, uh—Now then, as far as our equipment was concerned, it was makeshift. Because now, instead of having gas and the Bunsen burners for science and mathematics we had no--uh, alcohol burners. And improvised a lot of things. Of course, in the biological sciences wasn’t that much different because we did go out and collect specimens.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Uh, Were you aware if the white school offered any courses that maybe, you didn’t have at the black school?

THOMAS: I don’t know that they offered any courses that, uh, we didn’t have that would prevent us from entering college. Didn’t have any problems there. Because we had the full round of courses because in high school we would--because we--we start in General Science, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and, Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry, and then…

BRINSON: Mmm.

THOMAS: And another thing, that we did--the one thing we did have--we had, ah, had to have in high school--had to have two years of French and two years of Latin.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Didn’t have any Spanish, I regret.

BRINSON: Right. (Thomas laughs) You said your principal was helpful, and—to you, in getting you headed towards college and whatnot. Can you tell me a little bit about that, please?

THOMAS: Wasn’t, a, . . .when I finished high school, he interceded with President Atwood at Kentucky State College to, uh, admit me to Kentucky State College on a work scholarship. And, uh, because he had favored him, and he asked him if he would do this as a special favor for him. So I was admitted to Kentucky State College on a work scholarship.

BRINSON: And what was your work?

THOMAS: Now that’s, what [laughs], now that was interesting, because when the first time I went down there and he told--now he said, “Now I just don’t know what we have for him to do, but we’ll find something for him to do”. And my first job was with the boiler room. And the gentleman down there, ah, Mr. Jordan, when I went to report to him, and he told--he said, “Sonny,” said, “These wheelbarrows are larger than you, and I don’t know how you going to fire these boilers.” And he, uh, he let me try for--saw that I was determined. That I was just, going to try to do it. And in the—after a few days, and maybe week or two; he called me in and said, “Well, I’ll tell you,” said, “All I want you to do now is to keep the, keep the, uh, boiler room, and the, showers and everything, clean.” So that--he gave me that job. Well, it wasn’t long before that, then they transferred me to the gymnasium. And I was in charge of keeping the gymnasium clean. After I was on that job for some times, then they transferred me to the library. And I worked as the--as the librarian at the library. And, I wasn’t on that job, ah too long, before they transferred me to the, ah, Registrar’s office. And I worked in the, in the Registrar’s office. Of course, with my office work, I also had to do some janitorial work with the buildings.

BRINSON: You don’t—how did you find time to go to class, and study, and all of that?

THOMAS: Oh, it, our schedule was so arranged that, that, uh, we had time for our office work and for our class--class work. Because most times, in the office, I, I did--ah, I used to do--when they have the mimeograph machines and things, that’s when you had to use those. And I used to make copies, do that in the office and then, ah, as far as getting the mail and, one thing, another like that together.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Tell me about, uh, your courses—which ones did you like the best?

THOMAS: Well now, then--in ah--I, I enjoyed Chemistry. Chemistry was one of my favorite courses. And, my mathematics was one of my favorite courses. And then I have to think, I had one of the best teachers that ever was, that influenced me more with the--Reverend Jones was the science and mathematics teacher, and as a result, when I finished, ah, Kentucky State College I--with courses to--I graduated with Departmental Honors in science and mathematics. Then, ah, Biology was one of my favorite courses. Of course all the sciences I, I enjoy. And, ah, for my senior year, my spr--during the spring term, I had, they gave me a, a, biological division, to teach, and I taught that summer--taught a biological section. In summer school to, uh, teachers that came for summer school.

BRINSON: Did you plan to be a teacher while you were in college?

THOMAS: No I didn’t. [Laughs.] I, I thought about it when I first when to college. I always wanted to be a doctor. That’s the reason I took all the science and mathematics teacher. But I found out the thing, if you’re going in the medical profession it’s expensive. And it’s one thing they couldn’t afford. So …

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And there wasn’t anywhere in Kentucky for you to do that.

THOMAS: There wasn’t any place for me to go, as far as Kentucky was concerned. And so, then, I, uh--I decided that the next best thing—well, before that, I didn’t get a job when I first graduated from college. But the lady that was Registrar was Mrs. Anita Fields. And Mrs. Fields’ husband had a laundry in Louisville, Kentucky. And so she. . . asked him if he needed some help. And I went there and stayed with them for a short period of time, and worked in the laundry with them. I wasn’t on any fixed salary or anything; I just helped them in the laundry just to have something to do and someplace to go. But it wasn’t long, that was, uh, in the, latter part of the year my—the fellow that was my football coach at Georgetown, was a real close friend of mine, too. Uh, was Principal of the school at Horse Cave, Kentucky. And, when I finished, uh--I, I had finished college so he come—he, he left the Principalship to go to Mammoth Cave to the CC Camp. The Education Advisor. And then because that was more--it, it, gave him a greater salary than he was making as the principal of school. So he recommend me for the job as Principal of Horse Cave School. And, uh, I went there without any experience and as Principal. And this was one of the things that might have caused some of the problem, because I was, I had just finished college. Most of the teachers that were there, had been there for some times; and some of them—well, I guess most of them was as old or older than I was. And, they--I had a problem when I first went into that school system, and they said, “Well,” some of them said that, “Well, that they wasn’t going let any, no little upstart tell them what to do.” I had to convince them, I, I said, “Well,” I said, “I’ll tell you. it’s just like this,” I said, “I’m Principal of this school.” I said, “Now, all you have to do, is follow my plans and we’ll work together. And if it doesn’t work out, I’ll take the blame. If it works out, everybody will get the credit.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And I found out by working with the teachers, uh, like that--and I did and if I found problems with them I never did—uh, horn out any particular one that I--was, doing something that I didn’t, uh, agree with, or prefer; but I’d always have, uh,, a person-to-person conversation with them so that, uh, it wouldn’t be one of those things said by one and wonder what he’s talking about, or who it is.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Wasn’t that pretty unusual for you to come right out of college like that and be a principal?

THOMAS: Quite unusual. And, uh, so, and, and, uh, it, it presents a problem in more ways than one, because they had--some of the people in the community, that, uh, had--they called it Horse Cave Public School, in the, in the community. They, they, uh--they, felt like, that, when I first went there, they said, “Well, that little old man--well those kids will rock him.” Said that, “Some of the others, they’d, they’d, ( ).” And I just said to them, I said, “Well I’ll pay them if they’ll rock me. ( ) from school.” And, uh, another problem I had. . . some of the students asked me, what denomination I, uh, belonged to. So I said--they said--I said, “What do you think?” Most of ‘em thought I was Catholic. But then I said, “I’m Methodist.” And, uh, there wasn’t any Methodist Church in Frankfort, far as, uh, colored people—that’s what they called them then.

BRINSON: In, in Munford ( ) Frankfort, and Horse Cave.

THOMAS: I mean in Horse Cave. I think, there in Horse Cave. Now that was another problem. The—they had two girls who were twins and their father was a minister. But they didn’t like, ( ), said, “You know I believe, Methodists are more intelligent than Baptists.” And I said, “Well, don’t never let your father hear you say that.” And that was a problem, because I had to go to the Baptist Church.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, uh, so, I. . . participated in the church services in, at the Baptist Church when I, while I was there. But, uh, and, at first, they--they wanted me, they asked me to teach Sunday School. And I taught the adult classes.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Then, uh, the minister--they had a minister--they said, “Well, he didn’t think a Methodists had any business teaching a Baptist Sunday School. So I said, “Very well.” So I gave it up but I attended the Baptist Sunday School class.

BRINSON: Tell me how you first became active with the Methodists.

THOMAS: Methodists?—oh, I grew up as a Methodist at Georgetown.

BRINSON: You did? Oh, okay. So it’s—you’ve always been.

THOMAS: Yeah, I’ve always been a Methodist right back. Matter of fact, at, a, at the church, the only money I had when I went to, Kentucky State College, when I was in the eighth grade, I started singing with the choir because men were few. And I sang with them when I went to Kentucky State College. I can remember, they gave me twenty five dollars, that was the only cash money I had to go to Kentucky State College when I left.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And tell me the name of the church in Georgetown, please. What was the name of it?

THOMAS: Oh, oh, Wesley Chapel.

BRINSON: Wesley Chapel?

THOMAS: Mm-hmm, Wesley Chapel.

BRINSON: And, what, it was an all-black church then?

THOMAS: Yes, uh-huh. And, but, now, it, then, it, and it, uh, it’s Wesley Chapel United Methodist Church, because they had different conferences, you know, that particular time.

BRINSON: Okay. I want to go back and ask you, while you were at Kentucky State, were you involved in any athletics there?

THOMAS: I’ll tell—(chuckles)—I started out, I thought, I wanted to play football. Because I was a football player, I got—gain up to--to gain weight, I weighed a hundred thirty-seven pounds. And I went out for the football team. And, uh, during the, practice and everything, I guess, was doing pretty good for a while. And, uh, but I was playing quarterback as such, and, I guess the coach decided--who was, ah, King . Uh, I guess he wanted to find how sincere I was, and, had me backing up the line, one time. And I was--I can remember those boys coming thru at me. I’d, I would, hang into them, tackle them, you know. And then, uh, had playing quarterback, he had me, uh, returning punts. And things like that. So, I was doing pretty good with that, until I guess I got too smart for my own good; because I, I would return punts, and I’d run with these two fellows, one of them was William Coleman, and another boy named Frazier; one played tackle and one played guard. And I was returning the punt, and coming up the field, I sidestepped ‘em, and, you know, foolishly, I stuck out my tongue. [Laughs] The next time I called a punt, started down to--and the both of them hit me. And at that time they didn’t have the good field like that have at, in Kentucky State, then. They had that field and had this, and this, this, bank over here. Well both of ‘em hit me and took me over that bank. So I told Mr. King , I said, “I think I’m through, I’m not going …” He said, “Ooh,” said, “I’m--you’re doing alright. You just come on out. Now, don’t turn in your togs. You take them and put them under your bed.” At the end of the season, that’s where they still was. So then, uh, at that time they elected me representative of the, uh, . .. uh, to represent the football team on this Athletic Council. And, and that I did. Then, but I got, had a chance to, have some of the same services that the boys had. I could go to their training table and have better food than they had, ordinarily, at Kentucky State.

BRINSON: But you weren’t actually playing at that point?

THOMAS: I, I, took those togs back up and turned them in; I, I was through with football.

BRINSON: Right. “Togs”, is that what you call it?

THOMAS: In college.

BRINSON: In college.

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: T-o-g-s, is that how you spell that?

THOMAS: I’m—

BRINSON: Is—how do you spell that?

THOMAS What’s that?

BRINSON: Togs.

THOMAS: Oh, T-O-G-S.

BRINSON: T-O-G-S. Ok, that’s a new word for me.

THOMAS: Uh-huh. [Laughs.] Yeah.

BRINSON: I wonder, when you went to be principal, um, did you do any, did you coach any athletics there, as well as being principal?

THOMAS: Well, when I first went there, what had happened, after some of the people complained about me being principal and being Methodist. And, uh, the fellow that was Superintendent, V. L. Criston was Superintendent then and he was a really strict person. And, another lady, talking with her that came to take me out to celebrate my birthday that (laughs), grew up down that way; and she was asking me, “If superintendent, was he as strict and stern like he was when she was in school.” And I said, “Much so.” Because that was one thing that he was. We had to, make our lesson plans for the month and turn them in to him. Now, then, they had said, “Well, now, if, uh, he’s Methodist, uh, we, we don’t—we don’t like it because he’s the Principal of our school.” But, the thing that he told them, said, “Well, if the doesn’t do his job--we can--we have our members, our Board, it’s all denominations. And just because he’s Methodist, there’s nothing we can do about that. But if he doesn’t do a good job, well then, we will, uh, replace him, we’ll find somebody else.” But in time, after working with them for a spell of time, that, uh, they. . . accepted the fact that, uh, I wasn’t trying to convert in, anyone into the Methodists, so. . And, uh, I’d work with them at the Baptist Church. Now, of course, when I married, my wife was Baptist. But she grew up in Illinois, it, in, in, uh, Evanston Illinois. And, uh, most of the time we’d go to church. Well, on Communion Sundays, they, they wouldn’t serve me Communion. She—they would have served her Communion, since she was Baptist, she wouldn’t take it, ‘cause wouldn’t serve me.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now that went on for some time.

BRINSON: Hmm. Why do you think they were so, um, opposed to Methodists?

THOMAS: They just—I don’t know. They just wasn’t familiar with, uh, the Methodists.

BRINSON: So it was more, sort of fear, that they didn’t know

THOMAS: Because there weren’t any Methodists there. It’s a Baptist area, and, Baptists were …

BRINSON: Okay. Tell me, um, tell me about meeting your wife.

THOMAS: Okay. [Chuckles.] That, that was interesting, because, when I went there, there wasn’t much, outlet for the young people. Wasn’t much for them to do. I taught myself how to play a trumpet. And then I got some of the boys in the community together, and some of them had just experimented--uh, didn’t read music, anything; but I taught them how to read music. And organized a little combo--a little, jazz band--that’s what we called it at this time. And we played around, and for the schools, for the, uh, uh, school proms, and played at the hotels, and some of the other places around; Bowling Green—for--to have something to do. Well, now, then, uh, we were at Glasgow--playing at, Glasgow for a school, affair. And, uh, going over there we had had problems, because, you know, the girls, sometimes, they look at these fellows in the band, and they like to, date them or something. But, uh, we had a problem once, and we solved it, but the boys cut the hose on the car; and it was cold; and, (laughs), was at night; and, and, we couldn’t get home. So then, we went back--we went back to play again. And so during the course of the time, I said, I had, um, my wife’s brother taught school. His name was George Mitchell. He taught school and we were friends. So he was there with this young lady, and I said to ( ), I said, “Ooh-eee, wonder who that is George is dancing with?” She’s funny, she said, “All right, don’t you cut in there, or anything, you know the problem we had. But then at intermission--that we called it--he came over to me and said, “Well, Newton, I want you to meet my baby sister.” And, from then on, we started to, we were being dating and …

BRINSON: And what was her name?

THOMAS: My, her name? My name, her name was Ella. Ella, Ella Mitchell.

BRINSON: Ella Mitchell.

THOMAS: Ella Mitchell.

BRINSON: And, um, how long were you married?

THOMAS: How long were we married?

BRINSON: She’s not living now is she?

THOMAS: Oh no, she died in ninety-six.

BRINSON: Okay. A long time--

THOMAS: She, uh, we were married fifty-six years.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, when, when she died.

BRINSON: Did—was she a teacher? At all?

THOMAS: Huh?

BRINSON: Was she a teacher?

THOMAS: No, no, she’s a nurse.

BRINSON: A nurse.

THOMAS: She went to—well, at first, I, I didn’t want her to, to have to do anything much.

BRINSON: Let me stop and turn the tape over here.

END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE

BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE ONE

BRINSON: Okay, we were talking about your wife.

THOMAS: Yes, and I was saying the thing that--at first. I said, “Well, I didn’t want her to have to work.” But then, uh--after we--for a while, the. . . salary’s just wasn’t, that--at the level where you, uh, could support two people together. So she said, “Well, now then, I’m going to go on and, uh, take my nurse training.” She’ll took her nurse training at, uh, Glasgow. Practical Nursing school, and she became a Licensed Practical Nurse. Having the background that she had at Edmonson Township High School that was, uh, the school for Northwestern University. Uh, uh, she didn’t have any problem, made the high score on the test. Anybody that’s going in took the test. And then I still have her gold scissors, when she graduated as Valedictorian of her class, when she graduated. Now then, sometimes, uh, before, while she was taking this nurse training, one thing another. In the summer, I worked for a lady we were talking about--about her--in the summer--her name Miss Florence Gardner. She wrote the, wrote a history.

BRINSON: Gard, Gardner?

THOMAS: Gardner. And she wrote a history, of uh, Horse Cave. But she was restoring an old house, and, uh, she needed somebody to do some work up there And she had, asked me if I’d be that, and I said, “Well, sure, I’d be glad--anything, I’ll do. And that was a job, because she wanted that--the floors had, had--uh, people used to paint around the floors and put a rug in the middle, you know; and had a spot ( ). Well she wanted that all that taken up. And she had some kind of compound she’d found from someplace where you could mix it with water and put it on there. and then you could scrape up there, all of that paint. And I worked up there all summer; working for Miss Gardner. And, uh, making thirty-five cents an hour.

BRINSON: Mm. Mm.

THOMAS: But, back then thirty-five cents wasn’t too bad, but it was more then, uh . . . So, uh. . .that, that way--and then, sometimes when she’d have, guests or special, Ella would go up there to make some extra money and serve the, the meals for her. So, uh, even when school--after school--when school, she said--well, we didn’t get the job finished, after school sometime--she said, “Well you just come up here after school and do some work for me.” You know, and I did, I went up there. Well in the community, too, to built up the relationship among the black people there; but the didn’t call ‘em black, call them Negroes at that particular time. Uh, they had, ‘course, the Baptists used to have what they call the, that, uh, associations and, and, conventions and one thing another. And it, sometimes they would meet at Horse Cave or someplace and they would want to get ready for it. But now, then, lot of those people couldn’t afford to have something done to prepare for people coming in as visitors. So, I would, uh—there were some people that needed their houses painted, and then I would paint their houses for them. Then, the, uh,--I found out that--taught myself how to hang paper. And then, uh, uh, Ella would go with me and she would paste, and I would hang paper for them; just to help them out, you know. Well that way we built up a rapport with the children in the community. And, uh, --

BRINSON: Did, uh, did you and Ella have any children?

THOMAS: No.

BRINSON: No.

THOMAS: No, we didn’t.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I had, uh, we didn’t have any, we, uh, always wanted children and—we went through all the tests, even, even when we left Horse Cave and went to a specialist to find out why. And, uh, they, just didn’t understand, it, uh, why, because it wasn’t, anything wrong with either one of us to keep us from having children. But just like I say now, I guess it wasn’t, uh, in God’s will that we would have children, so that we could look after everybody else’s children.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, uh, now, then, you was asking about, uh, activities, uh ( ). Now see the basketball was where I got started, and course I got more recognition now that—in the lit—oh well, now, just this year, last year, for my, uh, basketball. Now then, uh, I had these boys , I didn’t play basketball in college. But, I, in the gym class we had had to play basketball, and the only, the only basketball I, I had was in the gym class, and we played with the girls, you know. Well when I got down there--I found out that they did have--started out to have a little basketball team. But they, they didn’t have anybody that took real interest or formal training, anything. So I said, well, we’re just going to--going to see to it that we, we play basketball. So we had what they call a, school set up on a hill and then they was just what we call The Bottom. And I know a fellow that, ran a grader. And he graded it all down at the bottom, made it level. And I put up a goal, down there for the boys to play basketball. And that’s the way we got started playing basketball. Well, now, in order to, when we put the--organized the team, I had gone to Sutcliff’s at that time, where they had these books, coaching books. And I bought some books. As coaching.

BRINSON: You, you’d got them where? I didn’t hear …

THOMAS: Fortune—it’s a, a little sport store in Louisville, used to be called Sutcliff’s.

BRINSON: Sutcliff’s, okay.

THOMAS: Uh-huh. And I, and I, I bought these, uh, books, from different coaches. And I read those. And then, I – found out that the, what, what, how to design plays, and one thing another. Then, they had a clinic, at Kentucky State. And, uh, and had--Al Runkle was in charge in the clinic. And I attended that clinic. And, uh, to get a first-hand idea of what was going on. And I can remember some of those, he’d, and he’d bring some of his team down and demonstrate the different plays and everything.

BRINSON: Now, let me stop you just a minute. Were these, um, boys, that you were teaching basketball, were they part of the school?

THOMAS: Oh, yes, they, they were school boys.

BRINSON: So it was …

THOMAS: They were school boys, yeah.

BRINSON: They were like the school team.

THOMAS: Yeah, the school team. Yes, oh, yes, they, they were a school team.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And, uh,--

BRINSON: How big of a student body was this Horse Cave?

THOMAS: [Laughs.] It was surprising. Do you know, in the school system we had a hundred and twenty-eight in grades one through twelve.

BRINSON: Wow, okay. And about how many teachers?

THOMAS: Oh, then, we had, uh, let’s see. We had six teachers.

BRINSON: Six teachers.

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: Okay. Okay.

THOMAS: And see, I had to teach the science and mathematics and then we had uh—we did have Home Ec, we did finally have a Home Ec teacher. Then, some of the teachers had, teach three grades, you know. Some had the first, second, third. Then third, fourth, and fifth. And sixth and seventh. And I taught the high school with the, with another teacher.

BRINSON: Okay. Tell me about the, the, money, to operate the school. Where did it come from?

THOMAS: Well that, type of thing would be the Board’s money.

BRINSON: The Board of Education?

THOMAS: The Board of Education. The funds from the Board of Education.

BRINSON: And was, was there enough money, or did you have to find ways to supplement?

THOMAS: Oh, now, then, as far as the school, attend, course, what they fund ‘s just he normal thing that a Board would furnish.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now then, we used to have, uh, programs at our school and, to raise money. Used to have, uh, . . .a, sales, food sales, and things like that. To raise money. To, uh, support, the, extracurricular activities. And we had, uh, had our Home Ec department had a good, had a real good teacher there. And uh, and uh, the girls, the. . . went to several National Conferences, for band--did exceptional work, and had offices in those, uh, conferences. But, uh, but most of the time, we just had to, do, do like that to raise money, and we, you know,

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: To provide for it, well. . .

BRINSON: So, so tell me, uh, what your impressions of, Adolph Rupp were like?

THOMAS: Oh, what--? Now, what was that?

BRINSON: What was your impression of Adolph Rupp at the basketball clinics?

THOMAS: Well, now, I wasn’t in too much to basketball. And I couldn’t say too much about some of them ask me that now. [laughs.] But, but, uh, growing up and later years after I got going, I wasn’t to impressed with what he is, because they tried to do something for the book somebody’s writing, dealing with him. But, uh, I, uh, the only thing about, at that particular time, and I guess when folks would get it, I never did feel like, that he was too interested, in, what they call, to be black, students there--black school. I didn’t think he was too interested in it.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And I, and I felt like, personally--in that--uh, when he did finally select, uh, somebody, he didn’t select the best he could find; as the results. And I, I, I think that was, ah, personally, now I could be wrong.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But I think that, that was an intentional thing. And you know, that boy that he had selected got in trouble, when he left and would steal . But, uh, I, I. . I think, the University of Kentucky wasn’t moved--wouldn’t have moved ahead like they have now if they, if he had stayed there.

BRINSON: So, what kind of a basketball team did you have?

THOMAS: Now. When I started out with these boys I had, uh, had, uh, they weren’t, they weren’t too good. Th-they played. I did have one boy, though, that, in that particular time, when he finished, . . .he went to the Tuskegee University. And made the basketball team. And, made the football team. And then he became coach at Lincoln High school then, in. . Fl—uh, Miami, Florida. We had, uh, that was another thing. At odd times, for, outlet and activity--since they didn’t have anything to do--I took them on the field, down The Bottom; and taught them plays ‘cause I knew football. They, we could--of course we didn’t have any football togs or anything; but I’d take them down to the field and we’d just play football. I taught them the plays and how they, how to play football. Than another thing, sometimes on weekends, they didn’t have anything to do; and I knew, to keep them out of trouble--they’d either come over and play basketball in The Bottom. Or, since, I’d organize and then we’d have softball teams. But ‘course we had the girls—and the school, too--it finally got organized where you had girls and boys softball teams that played the other schools. And, and there were some other schools that didn’t have gyms, now, ‘cause at first, Glasgow didn’t have a gym. They had one school in Bowling Green didn’t have a gym, had to play outdoors. And we went in to change games in, at times outdoors. Now then, when …

BRINSON: Horse Cave didn’t have a gym?

THOMAS: Now, we didn’t have gym. They had—‘course the white school had a gym, the one at Cave City had a gym. So, uh, they, a, . . . though, uh, sometimes, we’d get rained out! [Laughs.] I came--we’d get started--the game, rain, ending with the, game would get rained out. And I remember once we were playing Della Field [?], that was another high school that, in Bowling Green. And, it’s, long, . . .and we were, we were, . . . going along, and we were ahead, and then finally, uh, when, uh, as soon as they finally got us, lead ahead a little bit, then, the thing that happened, they, uh, took the, the, coach, and the Principal said, “It’s raining too hard, we have to stop playing.” As long as--we were--that they were ahead, it was, or something, it was all right. But—So we had to cancel some games. That’s the one thing that the article that Dick Burdett wrote in the paper that, . . . Well, then, now, these are the boys that grew up. They were youngsters--they were about third or fourth grade when I had, first started. Clarence Wilson--call him--boys went to Globetrotters and one thing another. They were in about the third grade. And, uh, they would go to The Bottom on the playground, at recess they had at that particular time. And these big boys wouldn’t let them, play. Now that’s when I had to put up another goal. Kept me busy, trying to keep them straight. So I put up another goal. We didn’t have but one goal at first! And so, those boys would play and I saw to it that they. . .. they got a chance to play, these little boys. When they got to seventh and eighth grade, and then, I took them on to coach them. And they had, they could beat, our varsity team at that particular time. Then finally--when they did finally grow up and got into high school--well that’s when the, in forty-three/forty-four and forty-four/forty-five--well then forty-two/forty-three we came to the State Tournament. And we went to finals, in the, consolation game. So, uh, those boys hadn’t been away from--some of them might have been to Louisville--but, ah, Bowling Green. But they’d never been any farther. So, then when we came to Frankfort for the state tournament they thought they were going off. So when we got to Frankfort, the state tournament at that time, and wh—and we went to the finals and the consolation. Then this Wilson boy, that went to the Globetrotters, said, “We, Mr. Thomas, we’re going win that thing next year.” Said, “The one thing about it, we just came, we found out what it’s all about now, we going win it.”

BRINSON: Where did they hold those games here in Frankfort?

THOMAS: Oh, they had the tournament at, uh, Kentucky State.

BRINSON: Kentucky State.

THOMAS: Yeah, they, they had the state tournament.

BRINSON: And—

THOMAS: See they had the state, uh, basketball tournament for the black schools.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And, and, and, that’s before integration, you see.

BRINSON: Right. And when you came to play in those tournaments, did you stay overnight?

THOMAS: Oh, yes. We did. They provided rooms for you to stay in, then, in the gym, I mean, in the dormitories and places. Now, then, now I had to stay [laughs], uh, my wife and I, most of the coaches didn’t bring their wives; I was the one who, I brought my wife. And, uh, we had, uh, they had some homes that, uh, would take in, and we stayed with some of the people on the, the, in uh, in Frankfort there. And, uh, so. . . uh, when we came back the second year, we did win the tournament.

BRINSON: Mm!

THOMAS: We won it. And then, uh, that’s, that’s, when we won it that year. Uh, we beat Central High School of Louisville in the finals. And Central, at that time, wasn’t used to consider playing us. But, and they scheduled a game with us. Now then, what finally happened, when we finally, uh, . . uh, won the tournament--there was a fellow down there that owned, uh, Hidden River Cave. Ah, Dr. Thompson, Thomas, Harry Thomas, and he, he told me, he said, once--I know, fellow at the drug, uh, grocery store, that I used to do business with. And he said, “Your name’s Thomas--his name’s Thomas.” I said, “Hope you’re not as mean as he is!” [Laughs]. But he—it—they--they, some reason or another, they didn’t get along. Most of the people didn’t get along with. But he came to me and we got to be friends. And so, he said, “I’ll tell you what you do, you win that tournament, when you come back I’m going give you, ah, ten dollars.” And we won that tournament that first time and I, I hadn’t thought about it, I was just walking down the street, and he came across the street and handed me a ten-dollar bill.

BRINSON: Now was he white or black?

THOMAS: White. See, down, owned the cave down there. Yeah, it’s his family’s. Yeah. And, uh, so--so then--well, we had these uniforms (laughs), I tell you! We had it, some of them, that the shirts and things didn’t really match, they weren’t too fancy. So what he did, he went to a white school. He had given them uniforms with the warm-up jackets and everything. With the picture representing the cave. He went up there and got all those uniforms, and got them from them and gave them to us, and bought them some more uniforms. So then, uh, we’d come sometimes, our colors was blue and gold and theirs were purple and gold. But now, that, that first year we were up there, we were wearing purple and gold and our colors were blue and gold. But then we started having those affairs and uh, raising money, and bought uniforms of our own. But now, what had happened, after we won that first tournament, the school at Cave City, we didn’t have any, place to practice. They said, you can come down here and use our gym. The school in Munfordville said, you can come to Munfordville and use our gym. As a matter of fact, we went to Munfordville and use, uh--we could use--uh, use their gym for games, scheduled games. That’s when we started to make some money; when they allowed us to schedule some games.

BRINSON: Munfordville?

THOMAS: Munfordville.

BRINSON: That’s the county …

THOMAS: Now, see, that’s ah, at that time, Wilbur Smith was coaching, I think.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, and, and we’d go up there and play. Boy--their boys, sometimes, wouldn’t want--wouldn’t want to play us, because they felt like we was too easy. That’s the only way you going to be, good, is to play somebody better than you are. So that, happened, they were, at that two places. That’s the …

BRINSON: Mm. They sent, you said you started making money, did you sell tickets to the games?

THOMAS: Oh, yeah, we sold tickets to the games. They allowed us to sell tickets to the game.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And therefore--when we’d bring the teams in--of course you’d have to guarantee the teams who came in, uh, funds for transportation or something. And then, uh, finally. . . But those two schools, we could, we could schedule games and charge for those.

BRINSON: Now was Wilbur Smith a Principal of that school at the time?

THOMAS: I think he was coaching.

BRINSON: He was coaching.

THOMAS: I was, think he was coaching.

BRINSON: And was Bruce Smith’s—father,

THOMAS: Yeah, uh, yeah, the father, Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And then, uh, then uh. . . after we won the first tournament, I guess Horse Cave did, uh. . . felt, felt that they weren’t treating us fair. Then they decided to let us come up there. And, and practice at home, why we would—see when we went to Munfordville, we had to--had uh, ah, some had to get cars sometimes, and sometimes—the--drive the Shortway bus. And I had to see if I couldn’t find the money--the boys had to scrape up money to ride the bus. And we’d have to go up after practice and come back. And that’s the only way we got going. Cave City we had to go, up there it wasn’t that, distance, but then, finally, they’d let us come to Horse Cave.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And they let us practice there. Well we could just, just walk up to the gym and practice.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And then, then they let us schedule the games. And, uh …

BRINSON: So, when you were, were playing those teams, were, were these mixed teams, in terms of white and black?

THOMAS: No, no.

BRINSON: Was still all the black--?

THOMAS: Um, yeah, just all black.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: No, still all black.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Because that was before the, desegregation, see. This was in the forties, and that. Now then, we had one white team, and, out in Metcalfe County.

BRINSON: Metcalfe.

THOMAS: Then—now—they--now we--they played us and we played them. And we’d go out there and their gym was as, old, and made--converted from a barn.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And we, we’d go out there and play them and then—they--you know, I can’t think the fellow’s name, that was out there, and principal and coach. And he was--ah something happened to him in the cave that—now I can’t remember his name. But, uh, but though—now, they played them, and we said we’d played integrated teams before, integration came about.

BRINSON: And what was that like?

THOMAS: Make—oh, we didn’t have any problems, not at all. No. They, they, those people’s out in Metcalfe County we just got along with them just fine.

BRINSON: And, and, your boys weren’t a little nervous about what that was going to be like? Or they weren’t ( ).

THOMAS: No, no. They, they weren’t either, those people were just like that.

BRINSON: Worked out okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, just, you found some people that’s out in the county that has different attitudes from some of the others. But that was one section there that didn’t and never was a ( ) kinda thing--whether he was, I don’t know what, what it is--what it was. Because later after, after the schools were integrated and the lady that lived out in that area; uh, a music teacher--I used to sing. [Laughs.] And, uh, I may not still sing. I sing with the choir at—in--with, ah, the madrigal group and everything. But, uh, Blanche, she would--every time when they’d have Revival out there at the church in Metcalfe County, she would—Miss Clark, she said, “Well, we’re going to have”—[phone rings], oh, okay …

[Tape clicks off and on.]

THOMAS: Now, then—just like I tell you at the church, my friends, uh, all my, my friends, my close friends, are, are. . . not what you call the black folks, you know. See, all my friends are, the white. She, she works for the state. And her mother and father and we all, go out together, so.

BRINSON: Okay. I need to say for the transcriber that we were interrupted by the phone call …

THOMAS: Oh, okay, all right …

BRINSON: And Mr. Thomas was just telling me about the woman, his friend, who called.

THOMAS: Uh-huh.

BRINSON: But we’re back now,

THOMAS: We’re back.

BRINSON: And we want to go back and finish, some of the story that you’re telling about, uh, basketball.

THOMAS: Okay, now then, I was telling you about the, Horse Cave.

BRINSON: And playing the, right, and playing the white team.

THOMAS: And we found the …

BRINSON: In Metcalfe.

THOMAS: Oh, and we played Metcalfe County. We, we had, had the good relationship with them. They would come to our thing, we would go to them.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And it was interesting, because you see they had some things that I wasn’t familiar with; because they used to have the, uh, Pie Social, prior to the game or after the game. And of course, I didn’t know what that was all about--what they did. Well, you buy a pie and you get to eat with, ah, who made the pie. The girl that [laughs],

BRINSON: Ooh.

THOMAS: That’s the way they raised money for it. And so, that, that’s the way they raised the money. And they just have, ‘course, their town was . . . a lot of--lot of people--lot of teams wouldn’t have played with them, but we did. Didn’t make any difference with me. But those people was real congenial people.

BRINSON: Mm. So they, they, you ate the pie before the game started?

THOMAS: Oh, no, no, you’d have a pie you could take it home with you.

BRINSON: Oh, I see.

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: And you got to …?

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: Got to eat it with the person who made the pie?

THOMAS: Yes, yet, at the – you could, if you wanted to sit there and eat with them.

BRINSON: Okay, okay. So, how many, you were still the Principal, of the school, um, un--, for how long?

THOMAS: At Horse Cave?

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Twenty years.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I was the school Principal for twenty years. Now. . . that brings us around to the place where we’re coming round to the changes that take place--that took place.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm, with the Brown decision and the Supreme Court?

THOMAS: Yeah, and see I was at the, at then, I, I went to the University of Kentucky. I was going to see Mr. Johnson brought the suit, and I went to the University of Kentucky in seventy. And I don’t mean seventy, I mean fifty, nineteen fifty.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: And, I was one of the first, that had gone up there.

BRINSON: And what were you studying?

THOMAS: And so, uh, I went up there and took my graduate work with the University of Kentucky.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: In Administration and Supervision.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: So, I, uh, what had happened, I would, I would go to Georgetown and stay with--my mother was still living when I first started--and I’d stay with--my wife and I’d stay with my mother. And then I commuted to Lexington. Then after my mother died, before I graduated from UK--I regret that, she didn’t see me--she was--that was one of those things she was so proud of me. Helped me, go straight through. And then, uh, after that, my only sister--over in Georgetown--and we’d go and stay with her. She’s one over there.

BRINSON: Now, now may I ask you, when you were doing that, did you go in the summer, in the winter?

THOMAS: Oh, in the summers, I had to go in the summers,

BRINSON: Right, okay.

THOMAS: When school was out.

BRINSON: Right, okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, I went to summer school. Well, then …

BRINSON: And you got a Master’s Degree, is that? What your degree was?

THOMAS: We had Master’s Degree, mm-hmm.

BRINSON: And how many summers did it take you to do that?

THOMAS: Well, now, then, ordinarily, you could take, you could take it, in, full courses and you could, graduate in three summers.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Now then—at the end of the third summer, I thought I was finished [laughs]. Actually. . . but I went to the Dean, and he said, “Well, I’ll tell you. Your quality points and everything’s alright. You don’t have any problems there,” said, “But your residency, since you don’t get as much time for residence, in the summer as you do during the regular term.” So I had to go back. . .the fourth summer, so I’d have enough residence to graduate. Now I didn’t have--I’d fulfilled all my requirements, course requirement.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Well, then, since I had to go back the fourth summer, that’s when Ralph Dorsey was a Superintendent of Cave City, this, this idea about integration was coming about.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And desegregation was coming about.

BRINSON: Let me stop you and turn the tape over here.

THOMAS: Okay.

END TAPE ONE SIDE TWO

BEGIN TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

BRINSON: He was?

THOMAS: Superintendent at Horse Cave.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: So he says, uh, “You know, we’re going have to do something about, uh, the desegregation of the schools.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: “Now, since you don’t’ have any courses that you have to take, you see if you can find something up there that would help--you know, improve; in human relations courses.” So I did. I had, all my courses that summer dealt with, uh, developing human relations.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: So, when I got back, . . . then, we organized a committee. From the, all segments of our community. Now, the black and white. And, and, so that—to make a study. So we would meet, and we would discuss, how we felt about integrating the schools, you know, and, uh, --

BRINSON: Was this before the Brown decision in fifty-four?

THOMAS: N, No. That, that was, uh, that was after that.

BRINSON: It was after that.

THOMAS: Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah. When …

BRINSON: Do you remember when, when it would have been? Was it nineteen fifty four, 1955, or …?

THOMAS: Now, then, it would have to—let’s say, it’d have to been, we started our study in fifty-five,

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Because that was after I finished, I finished UK in fifty-five.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, that extra year made it fifty—[clears throat]. So, since we’d then, then we did the study …

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: We, we met in fifty-five. During that year we’d have these meeting’s, and, and uh, discuss what we. . . felt like we need to do in order for it to work successfully. Then, uh, . . I, I …

BRINSON: Do, do you remember out of those discussions what kind of—uh. What were the big issues that came out of those discussions? What were people’s concerns about whether it would succeed or not?

THOMAS: They. . . they felt like, it was, well, of course it was a new experience for them.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, uh, a, a, of course they didn’t even have any idea how it would work. I had to convince them that, uh, it would work. Now what we did, in order to get the, uh, adjusted to that situation, I said, “Well now, then, what we would do, uh, uh, Joe Cheney he’s Dr. Cheney then, anymore, he said, “Now,” he was principal of the white school. I was principal of the black school. Well, I though, we had, some of the youngsters that were just talented as far as singing and speaking and one thing another. Well, we’d interchange programs. I’d go to his school and he’d come to my school.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now, then, the next thing would happen. . .Uh, when we’d have the meeting, we’d have the meet with the, uh, Women’s Club, the Rotary, the Kiwanis Club, the PTAs, and all of them. But then, but what happened. When we’d meet with those people to try to convince them that it would work and we wouldn’t have any problems. Uh, after our ( ), Cheney would go with me and introduce me. But I would have to make the speech to convince them that it will work. We don’t have any problems, we won’t have any problems and it will work. And I, went to, all the different, uh, organizations; and I was the one that had to do—they never would say anything other than introduce me. So, then, they finally said, “Well, now then. Suppose we just had a fellow that was a lawyer, that was, uh, on the committee.” And, let’s see. . . once, what was his name? Hmm. Can’t think of his name now. But, uh, they said, “Well, well, what about just integrating the, high school? And uh, we’d be willing to do that, if you would stay and be principal of the elementary school.” [Soft bark of laughter] I said, “Well you can just forget it, ‘cause I wouldn’t stand and be principal of the elementary school if just the high school was integrated.” They said, “Well what would you do?” I said “I’d find me a job someplace else.” So, uh, [laughs], then, this one woman said, “Ah, I think Mr. Thomas is right. If we’re going do it, you start down here with the elementary students.” I told them, “Let the kids get used to each other before they get to high school. They’ll grow up more knowing, with each other.” And then I said, “Then we won’t have problems when they get into high school.” So he said that, “He convinced them that, uh, that that was the only way to go.” So we decided that, the Board finally decided that this would be what they’d do. Because of course they built that new school down there, Caverna, on the highway.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And uh, so, uh, . . . so that’s what. .. Oh—then, the question came up.

BRINSON: The what came up?

THOMAS: The question, question.

BRINSON: Question, hmm.

THOMAS: Well, maybe he’ll want to be principal. Uh, I, I, I told ( ) Cheney ( ) like, because we’d worked together--his idea was--and we still conversed and talked. He said, “Well now then, the thing that would work, I would be Principal and you would be the Assistant Principal.” And, uh, but, man, when the Board decided, they didn’t make him principal. [Laughs]. At, at all. And, uh, they, they elected, uh, Roy D. Reynolds came. principal, then.

BRINSON: Elected who? Tell me that name again?

THOMAS: Hah?

BRINSON: Elected who Principal?

THOMAS: Ah, ah, Roy D. Reynolds.

BRINSON: Roy D. Reynolds?

THOMAS: Mm-hmm.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I’d see, we, we, I knew him, from time I was there growing up and a young man. He was a fine fellow. But, they, they, but that left old Cheney out. So, Joe Cheney says, “If I’m not going be Principal, I’ll leave.” He went on to Michigan.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And now, Joe was white?

THOMAS: Yes, uh-huh, he’s still—he’s Dr. Cheney—ooh, he’s retired from ( ) State University.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Then, and, then, uh. . . they, question came up now, then, what they going do with me?

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, they had, ah, they said, if he doesn’t stay it won’t work. ‘Cause he’s the one that convinced those people it would work. So, the fellow at the bank, Mr. Alston, I can remember him, he called me off, I used to banking with him. And said, “Mr. Thomas, you know, the Board is kinda concerned about, what to do about you.? Said, “They don’t think this’ll work unless you stay here.” I said, “Well, I’ll tell you.” {laughs). I said, “Uh, uh, I don’t have any problems.” They said, “They’d put you up in any kind of business you want to go in, just so you stayed in the community.” And I said, “No, I figured on going in the school.” So, now, they--they said, “Well now then, uh, would you take a teaching job?” I said, “The only thing about it,” I said, “I’ll take a teaching job, but you pay me a principal’s salary. Then I don’t want to be principal. I, pay me teaching salary--principal’s salary.” So, they agreed to that. So I would stay.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Till I went on in the school. Now …

BRINSON: And what, were you teaching?

THOMAS: That’s, that’s what presented the problem. [laughs.] I had to go and teach science and mathematics, department. I had to teach Chemistry, Physics, Geometry, Second-Year Algebra.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, I said, now that’s—I said, but the only thing about it, most of the Chemistry and Physics I had at Kentucky State was obsolete.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So now that, put me down, go to Western. I went to Western and took graduate courses in Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics. “Because,” I said, “I’m not going to--going to, cripple up any child going in the classroom.” Because, when I--they would have me come and talk to the white students in the classroom, you know. And then I’d say, “Well now, just what do you expect for, of a teacher?” And, now, the students said, “It doesn’t make any difference. . . to us. We don’t care about what color he is, just as long as he’s fair, and he’s prepared.” And, and, I said, “Well I’m going to be prepared.” And I went down there and most of them, didn’t have--I didn’t have any problem. Did graduate work down there, and, uh, so. . . Then, so I taught Chemistry, Physics, uh, Second-Year Algebra and Geometry.

BRINSON: Now, at that point that you were teaching, the, the schools had integrated so you had both black and white students?

THOMAS: That’s, that’s, that’s right. That’s in, uh, fifty-seven.

BRINSON: And there wasn’t any black school.

THOMAS: I don’t mean fifty-seven, do I? I mean—yeah, that’s right.

BRINSON: No, that could be right.

THOMAS: Yeah, fifty-seven is right. That’s, we were one of the first schools that integrated.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But, we said to the news, “Now, we don’t want a lot of, publicity. When, when, when the time comes for us to move into this new school building.” See, we had to go through court to get that new building, built; the big Caverna, because it crossed county lines--Cave City and Horse Cave. And that’s the reason they changed the name to the school. Instead of Horse Cave High School and Cave City High School, changed it to Caverna High School.

BRINSON: Tell, tell me about the court action? What was that?

THOMAS: Ah, they didn’t think that you could cross, two schools could – See, Cave City was an independent school.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Horse Cave was an independent school. Horse Cave didn’t want to go in with Hart County, they could have. And, and those people did—[laughs], I don’t know it, it, prob … And Cave City didn’t want to go in with Barren County. So they said, “What we’ll do, since we’re two independents, uh, districts, let’s join hands; we have enough students for a school. For an independent school.” Well, they, they had to take it--they took it court. You know, it, the county’s going to question that. And it’s--they, the court ruled that it, they could do it. And that’s when they had, changed the name to Caverna. Caverna School. It sits right between Horse Cave and Cave City.

BRINSON: And …?

THOMAS: On the highway.

BRINSON: Tell me, tell me about the significance of the name Caverna.

THOMAS: Ooh! Now, then, I understand, and from, I told you this lady, uh, wrote, . . .this book about the history of Horse Cave. I understand that one time, Horse Cave’s--the name of Horse Cave was Caverna--it, uh, because of the caves there.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Okay.

THOMAS: And so they--and since it’s Cave City, and Horse Cave, well Caverna was a suitable name. In, trying to say, for the schools. So that’s when it became Caverna.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: What the name came from, Caverna High School.

BRINSON: I want to go back and when you were still principal before the integration, and you were, you had this committee and you were doing speaking about. . . How did the teachers in your school, feel about integration?

THOMAS: Oh, that was an. . . that was another problem that we had to face. Most of the teachers I had, in my school, uh, I had to--just like I told you--I had to replace some of them. And those that I had, at that particular time, they didn’t have tenure. So, now, they, they, they, they, didn’t have any grounds to question whether or not they had a job. Had one lady--one lady at Cave City, one black lady, that, uh, was, uh, had tenure; and she’s elementary school teacher. Now then, they offered her a job. And she said, “Well as long as I’ve been in it, I’m ready to--I’m about ready to retire. And I if I can’t do the best that I know how, at this late state, I, I would rather not. . . uh, uh, become a part of, in the school system.” So, see, I was the only non-white in the school system. Only teacher.

BRINSON: Okay, right.

THOMAS: And, uh, so, uh, that, that was the way, that, that worked out. And so, uh, then, when I--when I started teaching, well, before that; most of the people knew me in town, but lots of people, some of the whites in town, they just knew I was the, uh, Principal of the school over there And they didn’t, and, and that was it. But then, when I went in the classroom, well the kids--well, I, I got along with the kids. They took a liking to me, and that—and they—and most of them, and, they’d say, they’d say, well, they’d get back their tests back, said, “You know, Mr. Thomas’s the best teacher we’ve ever had.”

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: And that changed the attitude of their parents, too. Even though I had talked with them and things and convinced them that. . . Then, I would go—I used to go down the street and some of them would pass me by. Wouldn’t care whether they spoke or not. But now they stopped me. “My daughter, or my son, said you’re the best teacher they’ve ever had.”

BRINSON: Mm.

THOMAS: So, then, that paved the way for [laughs], for, you know, the problems. So--and, and, the kids, uh …

BRINSON: How about the teachers, though, there at that school?

THOMAS: You know? They had the teachers, most of the teachers, I didn’t have any problems, with, but, but, one teacher. One teacher, uh, didn’t like the idea, she was a, English teacher. And, they, one of the, one of the math teachers rode with me everyday to school because had to, commute. She wrote back and forth with me to school. And, uh, we had a lounge, a teacher’s lounge, at Caverna. We’d go in before class time, and early morning, early mornings; and go in, have a cup of coffee, or something, just sat around and talked. They had one teacher--they had a lounge--we had a sofa. Then we had chairs. Well, some of the times I’d go in and there’d be chairs around. The, the sofa would be over here, this lady would be on this side, and, somebody else would be on the other side. Well, there’s open space in the middle. She’d put her purse in there. She, she wasn’t gonna let me--wasn’t gonna let me sit down beside her. So I said, “Well, it didn’t make any difference.” Some of the younger teachers—she was, had been around a while—“Well,” said, “Mr. Thomas, come on, I’m ready to go anyway, come on and take my seat.” And, and sometimes I’d say, “No, that’s alright, I’m doing well to, stand here; I just want to stand up anyway.” Well, now. . After. . . some time, after I was there, and I knew that I was accepted by her, too. I went in one morning and she’s sitting there, and the purse was in the chair. In the sofa. She picked the purse up, said, “Come on, Mr. Thomas, here’s a place for you to sit over here.” I said, “Well,” I didn’t make any fuss about. . . it at all; I just – when she decided. Then, it, finally turned out--before I left there--that sometimes we’d be the only two that was, in the lounge. And then she would talk with me and, became my friend. Became one of my best friends. Now then, now then, this other, young lady, she called me--I called her not too long ago--how her husband was, was coaching down there. Uh, Josh Robinson . And, uh, her husband, uh, passed not too long ago, and I called her and talked with her. And then she’s always said, “That, uh, if it hadn’t--if uh, uh, her husband--Cotton, wouldn’t have gotten his teacher’s certificate, if it hadn’t been for me.” Now—that--I had left then, I was in State Department. He tried to get, Mr. Dorsey to, uh, uh, recommend him for his teacher’s certificate, and, and, he, he wouldn’t do it. He didn’t do it. I--and I said, well, he came up here. I took him in to, to the, . . . Office of Certification. And, and so he, he could get his teaching certificate. And so he got it.. Now she was, she was, she was, she was, I saw her grow up, down there. And, now, the other teachers, they would call me Newton. Some of them would. Some of them called me Mr., uh, they had--most of them, no, most of them called me “Professor.” I guess you probably heard, the, uh, Betty Smith called me Profess—she calls me Professor all the time. And, because they, because they called me Professor. But, uh, but, uh, some of them--at least some of them--few of them called me Newton. And she said, “I wouldn’t dare call him Newton, my daddy would kill me if I called him that.” [laughs]. And I was talking to her not long ago, after her husband died; and talking about family stuff, and uh, she was, so glad, that—we’d promised that we’d stay in touch with us, always stay in touch with each other. And, uh, she said that she never would, never would forget it, what I had done for Cotton; and, and, what I’d been to the family in school. We got to be real good friends. Well, well, now, we did, some of the younger teachers--now then--after I was at Caverna--now then, like, her husband had another, uh, fellow, that was there, and another fellow that finally became Principal of the school. That, uh, it when, well ( ). And, and became Principal of the school. And we used to go down, uh, one of them had, ah, a, like a, a boat down on the lake. And we, we used to go down there and have, uh, cookouts, and one thing another; the men, just the men. And then, some of them would ski. ‘Course I sit, up, I’d stay on the side watching, I wasn’t interested in that skiing on the boat. And we’d just have a great time with, together, down there. Now the other one, that, that’s, in, ah, left, he’s in, now, now, I think he’s retired now, too. He told me he’s in politics now. He called me when he found out that I got this honor, you know.

BRINSON: I want to ask you a few questions about all that. Um. . . there, there’s one person who believes that you might have been the first teacher to integrate the white schools in Kentucky. Do you think that’s. . . true?

THOMAS: I think it was, I think it was. I think we were the first ones ( ). I don’t know about grade school, but high school. I was the first teacher that went into the high school.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Oh!

BRINSON: In the whole state?

THOMAS: That’s right. In the state of Kentucky. Yeah.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And that was the one thing I was going to tell you about, about my basketball team, when we played Central. We played Central four times, they never did beat us.

BRINSON: Mm.

THOMAS: And when we went to Louisville to play Central in Louisville, uh, the Principal, Mr. Wilson, [laughs], and, uh, our boys were there, and he said, he got--got on this court, said, “I can’t understand why they, they can’t beat Horse Cave. Out of ten games ( ).” So, uh, he said, [laughs], he said, “I, I’ll tell you the reason why we can’t beat them. They just have a better team than we have.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: You know.

BRINSON: When—

THOMAS: He’s, he’d said, “Well, we have more, more pe …, more students than they have people in Horse Cave.” He said, “But we don’t play—people in Horse Cave. We just play five boys at a time.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. When you went, um, to the new high school, did you coach anything there?

THOMAS: Took—no, I never did. No, uh, uh—

BRINSON: You were a teacher, but you didn’t—

THOMAS: I, I, no, I didn’t coach. ‘Cause see, Ralph Dorsey was coach, Superintendent and coaching down there, I wasn’t gonna …

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I knew I wasn’t gonna, be, getting the--being the job as far as coaching Then—but what I did do, and I [laughs], got to be—I’ll show them to you before you leave. I got, uh, I did start coaching--they had little league basketball. And, and I, I started coaching little league basketball. Now—then--uh, then I would, ah officiate little league baseball.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Well, when, uh, I started out the little league basketball and would have tournaments. My team always, won. And the two of them at the tournament [laughs]. Now this sport--that Clarence Glover, that’s, uh, principal of the middle school went to the Boston Celtics--and then, after Boston he was one of the ones that was the last ones cut; then he, he went on and coached high school up there. And when he got to high school, his team was outstanding team in, uh, Boston. And, uh, so, uh, then,--he was one, was the center on my little league team. And, and, uh, so, uh. . .so, that, uh, he-that—that,--and, the thing about it, he went on--oh, what had happened there, when he was in high school—I knew he had good brain, was a good student. When he got ready to go into high school, well, uh. . . guidance counselor, when he made out his schedule, he put him in second-year algebra.

BRINSON: Second-year algebra, mm-hmm?

THOMAS: In, uh, in my class.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, uh, . . . I said, you know? I said, “That’s, that all right, Clarence will be in my class.” Well, Clarence came in there, I thought he was going to fiddle around, he thought he was going to fiddle around and didn’t make any difference what he did. What I--he was going to pass. Well he, wouldn’t get his work half time. Some of the white boys, if they got behind the work, they stick—they stayed at our house all the time, after we built a home on Main Street up there. We got some of them there, with, doctors and one thing another. “But,” uh, I said,” Clarence, now you’re getting in trouble. Now you come up, and, I’ll have to get you out.” Well, of course the tournaments are going on. And he got to play in the district tournament. The regional tournament came up, before, and that was after our midterm. He had trouble in another class. He didn’t—he didn’t pass my, algebra class. He didn’t pass this teacher’s class. When, when the regional tournament came up, he couldn’t play. And, and, some of them [laughs], some of them--some, had had--no, not some of them; there was one person in the community, one white person, said, “I didn’t think you would fail Clarence.” I said, “Will you tell me why?” Said, “He’s the same color as you.” If he’s—now, then, we weren’t the same color, either; but, [laughs], but, but I said, “I—I, I, it doesn’t make any difference. If you don’t get your work in my class, you—if you--you fail your self. I don’t fail you.” And so, that was, that was – I’ll tell you after that, he got busy. And went on to Western and made the Dean’s list at Western. Now he’s got his doctorate. A few days up he had to visit me, after he found out I didn’t stay until they finished high school. So he came up, he and a, two other young men, that was down there. Uh, came up to visit me. They—because they wanted, uh, take me out for lunch after--uh, since they found out I got the Dawahares, uh, Basketball, Award. So, uh, they came up, and then they said, “Well, we’d”--they start to looking at the prints I have, different things, ships--and then they said, “We, I guess we better go eat.” Said, “Where do you want to go?” I said, “Well, I don’t know. These people didn’t take me out and I’ve been eating so much seafood I don’t want to go to Jims”. I said, “Let’s go up to Applebee’s, and, have, have dinner.” I said, “I’ll eat some ribs.” We went up there and they go talking about their experience at school, they said, “We’re going to have to come back again (laughter both) for--so we can look at your prints. But it was interesting that they—I, I left before they got to high school. Before they finished high school. And, and, uh, now Clarence was the only one in the pool. That was in, any of my classes. These other two, the one boy’s a little Strickland boy and he has his own business down in Louisville, now. And the other one has a business down in Cave City.

BRINSON: How many years did you teach, um, at Caverna?

THOMAS: I taught at Caverna thirteen years.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Uh, then I left, and, uh, now then …

BRINSON: So you would have left in the late sixties or so?

THOMAS: Hm?

BRINSON: You would have left there in about what year?

THOMAS: I left there in thirty-three. I think it’s thirty-three.

BRINSON: Not …

THOMAS: No, I mean, sixty-nine.

BRINSON: Six-, okay …

THOMAS: Sixty-nine. I left there in sixty-nine.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Now, see what had happened--they, when I got ready to leave and had this job offer with the state--uh, well, Dr. Martin had offered me a job at, uh, Eastern. He said, “I’ll tell you, if you come up here you won’t have to do anything but teach chemistry. That will be chemistry to the, uh, Home Ec majors and Agriculture majors. Because when they get in with the science students that already have a background, they have trouble.” So I says, “Okay.” “And I’ll give your wife a job in the infirmary.” I said, “Now where am I going to stay?” And said, “Do you have housing on campus?” He say, “We have housing on campus, but now then, we’ve got a long waiting list.” I said, “Well, now, then, I’ve got to have some place to stay.” He said, “Oh, you could find some place.” I said, “Well, I’ll tell you that, I’m not going across the tracks. And then for me to come over here and teach school in there. Teach, teaching at the Eastern Kentucky University.” So I said, “You can forget about that.” So I, I said, “Neither one of us, want or need the job.” (Laughs) Don’t ask—so, then, the time we got back to Horse Cave …

BRINSON: Now this is President Martin who was the …

THOMAS: That’s right …

BRINSON: At Eastern then.

THOMAS: So when I got back to Horse Cave, I had been in several workshops and things and he knew who I was. So, when I got back to Horse Cave, by the time we got back--he must have timed us--the phone rang. And he said, “Newton, this is Dr. Martin.” I said, “Yes?” He said, I want you to come back up here. I’ll pay your expenses, you don’t have to worry about a thing.” I said, “Dr. Martin, it’s not use in me coming back. Because I told you how I felt about the situation.” Said, “I’m not going to come back so you forget about it.” So then, so back—not, about going to Eastern. Well, then, when, uh, I was offered this job with the State Department. And, uh, I went in as Assistant to, uh, Bill Shattles, Assistant Director of Equal Educational Office.

BRINSON: To Bill--? What?

THOMAS: Uh, S-H-A-T-T-L-E-S.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Shattles.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Now, I went in as, his assistant. Uh, uh, I know, the way it happened then, after I—I turned down Mr. Martin. I, I, had, ah . . .they had asked me if I’d be interested. And I, so I saw, so, Mr. Butler was, then, uh, . . .Superintendent of Public Instruction at that time. And he said, now you come up. . . and let me talk with you. So I said, “Well, I’ll come up.” He said, “You can come up anytime. Weekend, on the”--now, I think it must have been one, one--one night we went up there. He said, “I’ll be in the office.” And I went in; he talked with me about, about the job. And I said, “Yes, I’m, I’m interested. I’m ready to leave Horse Cave now.” So he says, “Well” …

BRINSON: Why were you ready to leave?

THOMAS: Hmm?

BRINSON: Why were you ready to leave?

THOMAS: Oh, I felt like, that I’d been there thirty-three years and I’d done as much good as I could.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And it was a chance for, an advancement with me. But, uh, before that, Dr. Dodson had been Superintendent while I was at Horse Cave. And he had said, “I don’t see why you stay at—stay at Horse Cave.” Said, “Because, uh, nobody will ever know how, uh, how, your capabilities or anything.” Because when he was there, sometimes he had a job, uh, in, as a, in, uh, in the summer--the backup copies that would go out, with the in—for the insurance company. And in fact, he’d pay me to stay in his office and fill out his form, Superintendent’s form. And he told everybody, said, “You know what?” Said, “Newton filled out my Superintendent’s form, and all I did was sign them. I never did go over them to find out anybody, and never did have one returned.” So he says, “I don’t see why you stay there, you can get—I’ll get you, see you get a job in Jefferson County. Anytime.” I said, “No, I don’t want to go to Jefferson County.” Later, he told me, after I started getting recognition for, for, uh, you know, human relations and one thing another. He said, “I think, I was mistaken,” he said, “Because I think it was the best thing that ever happened to you. Down, at, uh, Horse Cave, that, that you stayed there.”

BRINSON: Before we leave Horse Cave, though, I want to ask you—tell me about Mr. Smith?

THOMAS: Oh, Wilbur Smith.

BRINSON: Right. He was the Principal …

THOMAS: Yes. Well, he was the Principal of the elementary school. First, one, I think.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: The elementary school. Then he became Principal of the high school.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: When--And she was the librarian at the high school. Then he left, and came to. . . Frankfort.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: He left before I did.

BRINSON: Did he leave to come with the Department of Education?

THOMAS: Department of Education. He came with the Department of Education.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Then, uh, and, and, I—then I came to the Department of Education. And then [laughs], the thing about it, when, when I got into the Department of Education as Director, and I was promoted to, to Director of Equal Education--Mr. Shattles, said, “He was going to retire.’ That he was after, and I’ll tell--that’s another story. See, now, I’ve got these things in pieces, I guess you can put them together. I mean, really, but – when I came, as Mr. Shattles’ assistant.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Well, then, oh, going, go back, with Mr. Butler. When I came to meet with him, Ella and I. So, uh, Mr. Butler said, “Well, that’s good.” I said, “But you know? I’m, I’m--I can’t leave Caverna, right now, until--somebody will have to replace me.”

BRINSON: Okay. I’m going to turn the tape over here.

THOMAS: Okay.

END SIDE ONE TAPE TWO]

BEGIN SIDE TWO TAPE TWO

THOMAS: But, uh, what had happened, while we were sitting in the office, he said, “Why,” I said, “I can’t leave, Caverna, un-, un—now, but midterm. I can’t just leave them hanging by a thread.” I said, “Now, then, I have to have somebody to replace me, for … And then he--and then for the job--he said, “By the way. . . Uh, since you’ve been down in there, do you know a Thomas Butler?” I said, “Well, yes I do.” I said, “Thomas, I was with Thomas and I and Miss Press. . . with the KET that, developed, uh, the proposal for, uh, . . .Mental Health and Mental Retardation for Warren County and Hart County and Barren County.” “And so,” I said, “So,” he said, he picked up the phone. He called his brother. So, he …

BRINSON: His brother was …?

THOMAS: Ah, Thomas.

BRINSON: Butler.

THOMAS: Butler.

BRINSON: Okay. Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Yeah, he was—he was in school. I think he might have been a principal down in Metcalfe County at that time. So, he said--he asked Thomas about me. And Thomas said, “I’ll tell you this. If you can get him you better not let him go.” So Mr. Butler said, said to me, said “Thomas said I better [laughs] I better not let you go. I better hang on to you.” So, then, I asked him, about my salary. Well Shattles, said--quoted me one salary, but I was going to be as his assistant. Mr. Butler, when he quoted me, the salary was a thousand dollars more than what, ah, Shattles had told me I’d get. You know.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So I said, “Well.” Then, uh, when, uh. . . when it finally settled, I said, “Now if I can find somebody. . . to take my place. I’m not going to leave them. Until I find somebody to take” …well, I think I told you was a, in the National Foundation Teacher at Center College for two summers.

BRINSON: No. Tell me about that.

THOMAS: Oh, okay. I was, uh, I was selected, uh, when I was at Caverna for the National Foundation of Teacher. For Center College. In sixty-three.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, then, I was selected for the National Foundation of Teacher in Center College in sixty-four.

BRINSON: And so, did you—um, tell me, what that involved, for you. Did you have to there during the summer?

THOMAS: Teaching—teaching during the summer when they’d have these students, these, uh, it’s kinda like the Governor’s Scholars. They came in, in science and mathematics--

BRINSON: And, was, will Lil Press involved with the program then, or later?

THOMAS: Hmm? Oh, no, no, no, not in that program, no.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: They were involved in the, in the Mental Health and Mental Retardation Program.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But that, that was—this was one of those things, it’s a—I don’t know how they selected the—well, the teachers that they felt like they—at, at that school that would be the best. . . qualified to teach.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, I, I was fortunate enough to be, be, be, uh, selected as one of the teachers. Now ‘course they paid you this. . .you got this government grant, you know. And I was up there one year, and, and I said, uh, at Center College. And, uh, and, now, some of the. . . the ones that, the uh, graduate students at, what’s existing now, no you had to participate with the students and everything. And games and everything, in, in that program. Kinda like they do with the Governor’s Scholars. And then, I had to do a research project. And I had this young man that keeps—that, that was teaching at Center College. He was a graduate student, but I had to work with him and his research project. And that was one—uh, experience I’m glad I’ve had it. But it was, it convinced me that I didn’t want to go in research. (Laughs)

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Becau—because, uh, then, uh, since I was in that program in, at Center College. Then, the second year I was up there—then--when, after the second year they said, “Well now. Why don’t--suppose we give you a job? And you come to Center College?” I said, “What am I going to do?” And you know the rate at Center College, at this level. They said, “Well, now, uh, all the new science equipment that comes on, we were doing the spectrophotometer at that time, one thing, another.” Said, “Well, when everything new comes out in science, what we’ll do, we’ll pay your salary to go to anyplace where anything new is going to come about, you just go there. And then you study and find out how to--how to operate it, and what, how it should be used. Then you would come back, and with the professors here, then you’d teach them, how to use this.” I said, I—[laughs]. I told them--I said, “Not at this late stage, it won’t be too long before I’ll be thinking about retiring or something. I’m not even thinking about going into anything like that and especially coming back and teaching at Center College, you know.” But, uh, but I, they offered me the opportunity to come up there and do that. But I, then I, but of course, some of the, faculty members at Center College, one of the ladies was in the —no, I can’t think of her name now. At, uh, State Department when I was there. And, then, uh, I, uh, got to meet with, oh, well, Miss Ella’s, uh, uh, brother was down there, in the physics. And I got to work with those people that, that I know down there. But I said, “No, it’s, it’s a nice offer.” And I, I thought about it, but the, the, caliber – uh, uh, where Center College is, I didn’t want to get--not at my late state, you know. But now …

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: But, now, this thing …

BRINSON: How old do you think you were about that time?

THOMAS: Well, let me see—[laughs]. . . . Aah. . . I guess I must have been—now how can, how can I figure that out now. . . W—

BRINSON: You were already at the State Department? Or was, were you still at Horse Cave?

THOMAS: Now, I was in James, I was at, in Caverna.

BRINSON: Okay. So this is before …?

THOMAS: Just that that would be at …

BRINSON: Okay, so from the nineteen thirties …

THOMAS: That would be before I came to the State Department. Uh-huh. Yeah. And, uh, in the fifties.

BRINSON: Okay and you were born in …?

THOMAS: No, it was sixties, it’s sixty-three and sixty-four.

BRINSON: Right, you were born in 1912 …

THOMAS: Uh, sixty-three and sixty-four I was at, uh, Center College.

BRINSON: Okay, so you would have been in your forties?. . . That would be right.

THOMAS: Sixty-three and sixty-four?

BRINSON: Uh-huh.

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: Right, okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, that’s right.

BRINSON: Okay. I want to go back and ask you …

THOMAS: But—But I didn’t want to go—I didn’t want to go through this process of going …

BRINSON: Sure …

THOMAS: Going back to school …

BRINSON: Sure …

THOMAS: -And doing that kind of studying’ fresh, cause I had one friend that went back and—pressed him on his doctor’s degree and all. That he, uh, he—blew his top, had a nervous breakdown.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Now then, of course, just like when I came to the University and telling them--my wife said, “That , she—she didn’t,” said, “No, I don’t think you need to be getting involved in anything else, now, I think.” You know.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Uh-huh.

BRINSON: Okay. When, when you came to the Department of Education, what were your, um, job responsibilities?

THOMAS: Ooh. When I fir—[laughs], I first came, I was just supposed to--uh, Shattles, uh, decided what I should do. So, he had me to, evaluate some of the proposals that came in from all across the, the state and out-of-state too. And, uh, I, I would do that. [Clears throat.] At that time, we were, uh--the reasoning was then--uh, in Charlottesville--came out of Charlottesville; and, uh, he and this fellow were good friends. Then, uh, it had, got to the place where you go to, uh, write, proposals. So he had, uh, he said, uh, asked me about writing the proposals. I said, “Give me the guidelines and I’ll write the proposal.” So I’d write the proposal. He found out I could write proposals.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, so, so, he said, what had happened. Then, of course, sometimes we’d have to go out if they had problems in school. That was what we was supposed to do, if the had problems, resulting from Title IV, Title n—title, after, Title Four. Well, uh, …

BRINSON: And what kind problems, on the Title IV?

THOMAS: Uh, in, desegregation problems.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: So, uh, we, we was supposed to deal with those problems. But what had happened, when I got in office and he found out I could do proposals, and could evaluate the proposals. He would go and leave me in the office, I had to do all of that, all the time.

BRINSON: Mm, mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And he, he would be gone. I said, “No, that’s what got me in trouble with my weight problem.” I wasn’t getting’ any exercise, from being active, you know. Then, one time, the same problem down in Hickman, Kentucky.

BRINSON: In Hickman?

THOMAS: Hickman.

BRINSON: How do you spell that?

THOMAS: The problems that they had, related to some of the problems in the school as far as race problems,

BRINSON: Uh-huh.

THOMAS: You know. So, uh, those little offices, that, before we went to the, Plaza--the Sears building--well, they’re just like, uh. . .cardboard. He, her office’s the same as mine, here, he, he could talk on the phone I could hear every word he’s saying.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: You know. And, well, I guess he wasn’t aware of it. ‘Cause he’d close the door between us--they had a door--but he wasn’t aware that I could hear everything he’s saying. So when it got ready to have the same problem in Hickman Kentucky, the Superintendent want some help; and wanted our support. Well, uh, I heard him tell him. He asked him if he’d bring me down there. And, uh, he said, I heard him tell the man, said, “No I don’t want to bring him, he’ll be taking sides with those black people.”

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: So I, I didn’t say anything about it at all. So, uh, . . . then, they finally, they had problems down, down there. . . again. And, uh, so uh, I had—no, that wasn’t it, that particular time. Yeah, it was that time. Then, he, he didn’t go. He sent me. And, and, and, have another fellow that was Assistant, we went down there. And, uh, so, uh, the --so we got there, and what the problem was--and it didn’t amount to that much in the first place--just understanding--misunderstanding the trouble—had to do with cheerleaders of games, or something like that, uh, thing. Felt like they wasn’t getting a fair shake. So, uh, the Superintendent called Mr. Butler. And, uh, and, uh, told him about the situation. Said, he told him, you know, “If Mr. Thomas had come down here in the first place we never would have had--it would’ve been over with.” But, and then, . . . what had happened, when, when---then when Mr. Shattles retired, we had to develop a new proposal for our program; cause it was, a settled program. Well he went to Atlanta. He didn’t take me with me with him. He went to Atlanta. He came back and we did this proposal. He did it and we sent it in. They wouldn’t accept it. So, when, he said, uh, he couldn’t understand that. So, then, they said, well, then, they had to come back down there, you know. And, uh, and, and, had to redo it. Then, uh, come to find, I—I, knew what--I found out what the problem was. I went, he took me the next time with him. So the fellow in charge of, the Federal Program down there, and then, I, I, our supervisor from down there. We met with them. And this fellow outlined to me and then, my supervisor came up, and, uh, and told, me and talked to me, he was a black fellow. He told, told me about, uh, outlined the program, everything. And I said, “Well what was wrong with it if he didn’t s--?” Said, “He decided he’s going to do it his way. He didn’t find, follow the, guidelines.” Said, “All you have to do was follow the guidelines in developing the proposal. And, an, follow them through and then patch it in, but he, he, he wanted to do his own thing.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, uh, uh--when we, uh, we would, we came back and I did the proposal again. He took it back. And they, and . . . and it was almost ready to meet the deadline and we called; said, “I’ll take it to Washington, so it’ll be in, on time.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Well they accepted the proposal, it was all right.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And so, uh, so then, Shattles decided, had, had to do with Mr., Mr. Butler’s, and he said, “I--you know, I’m going to retire. I think I’m ready to retire.” I said, “Well--that’s okay.” So we moved, uh, we moved to the Plaza. And, uh, I had my, little office to myself and my secretary in the office. And he said, “I’m going, I’m going to retire.” And he said, uh, “You going to be, the, the, promoted to Director.” And he said, “You—you just come on in this office now.” I said, “No,” I said. “Until I know that I’m going to be approved as Director. I’m not going in that office.”

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So what had happened, he was gone. He took his leave and everything at the time. And he stayed gone, all of the—the time. Well, now, again, at that time, Mr. Butler went out of the office. I don’t know if he’s the one, trying to promote me. Dr. Ginger came in.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And Dr. Ginger—I said, “Well, now, I got to talk to Dr. Ginger. I talked to Dr. Ginger. So Dr. Ginger, I told him what Mr. Butler had promised me. He said, “Well, Newton, I don’t have any problem with that.” Said, “The only thing about it, I don’t know what you’re doing, but now don’t you get out here and get me in trouble.” So, so then—he, see, Dr. Ginger was Dean of the Graduate School at the University of Kentucky when I was up there. So he knew me from there. So, then, I, after I, then I was promoted, to, Director.

BRINSON: Okay. I’m going to stop right here.

BRINSON: Today is June 10th, [tape fades]. Today is June tenth, year 2002. This is the second part in the interview with Mr. Newton Thomas. Which takes place at his residence in Frankfort, Kentucky, and the interviewer is Betsy Brinson. Mr. Thomas, after I turned my tape recorder off and put it away last time, you started to tell me, a story about your ancestors. And you said something to the effect that there was some American Indian there, and you did not—you did not consider yourself African-American. Am I—can you tell me about that again?

THOMAS: Ooh, uh, that is right. When you find out about my background. My grandfather was Irish. And my grandmother was Indian. And, uh, so therefore, I had only one—I had one grandmother that might have had some African blood. So as a result, what happens is, I didn’t consider, me, myself, an Afro-American. I just, consider myself, an American. And whenever I fill out the, forms, that ask for your race, I put, uh, MC, Multi-culture.

BRINSON: Okay. Now, the Irish, uh, and the American Indian, was which side of your family? Your mother or your father?

THOMAS: My father’s side.

BRINSON: Your father’s, okay.

THOMAS: Mm-hmm.

BRINSON: But you are, you are, of a dark color. Your skin, how do you explain that?

THOMAS: Now some of my skin, if you see it, it’s not as dark as my face [Laughs.]

BRINSON: Okay. Okay.

THOMAS: Some it that’s, a different color. And then at one time, I had hair. And they said it was, uh, straight hair.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm?

THOMAS: And, and, -no, then I had a, one of my grandfathers on my mother’s side, though, came from one of the Islands and it, and I don’t remember what it was. I don’t know whether it was Hawaii or some of those islands.

BRINSON: Was--When you were, a little boy, growing up, was that ever a problem for you to have straight hair, or . . . ?

THOMAS: No.

BRINSON: Or different color skin? You never got teased by other children or anything?

THOMAS: Well, you know, I had, I had a sister that everybody thought we might have been twins. Now her hair, stayed, she, her hair grew and stayed straight. ‘Course she’s passed.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Mine, they said--what had happened to me--they had asked me what happened to the hair? ‘Cause hair, said, “When I was a youngster, I had curls.” And, I said, “What had happened, my mother sent me to the barbershop. And didn’t go to the regular barbershop, wasn’t open; and then I had to go to another barber. And he just gave me a skinned head. [laughs] And then when my hair grew out, it never did—it, it never was the same texture that it had been.”

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And now, even now, that little that I have left, when I go to the barber--to my barber--I go to Wal-Mart’s now to get cut. And one side of my hair is better than the other, one side of the hair—you know, real, good hair.

BRINSON: Hmm. You go to Wal-Mart?

THOMAS: Hmm?

BRINSON: You go where to get?

THOMAS: Wal-Mart.

BRINSON: Wal-Mart!

THOMAS: I go to the—

BRINSON: I didn’t know you could get your hair cut at Wal-Mart!

THOMAS: Oh, yeah, they have the beauty shop and the hair-cut, too.

BRINSON: They have everything, don’t they?

THOMAS: That’s right. I used to go to the, uh, barbershop at, uh, Versailles, before, I ( ). I’d go down--well, then, there was a white shop here, that I--uh, close to where I worked and I could go out at lunch and get my hair cut.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Okay.

THOMAS: But then, they moved. Then when they moved up the road, a street farther, I’d go.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But see, all, some of these things was when I, could drive myself, see.

BRINSON: Right. I want to go back, also, to, um, the discussion we had earlier about when you moved from being the Principal, of the black school, to being a teacher at the integrated school.

THOMAS: Right.

BRINSON: And, um, we, we said—we thought you were probably the first African-American teacher into the integrated school system in Kentucky. Did you know at the time that you might have been the first in Kentucky?

THOMAS: Yes I did. Because it was directly after the, after the, uh, decision that they had to integrate the schools, after the. . . that- in sixty …

BRINSON: The Brown decision.

THOMAS: The Brown decision. And, uh, now then …

BRINSON: And what year did you …?

THOMAS: Uh, 1957.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: When I went in there. Now then, there might have been some elementary, I—I was at—that’s a high school.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But now, there might have been some other of them because some of the schools integrated the grade schools and didn’t integrate the high school. But we integrated all the way through, elementary and high school.

BRINSON: Right. Um, how did you feel, to know that you were making history then?

THOMAS: I really didn’t know that it was going to be that much hoop—history myself. But, uh, having been in that community for. . . as long as I had, and had, uh, been involved in community and at church activities, then, I, I never thought about it.

BRINSON: Okay. Did, did anyone else that you recall, ever mention this to you in any way as sort of being a first, in Kentucky history?

THOMAS: I don’t recall that they did.

BRINSON: Okay. Okay. Um. . . I want to move ahead to where we ended last time, in which we were talking about your years at the Kentucky Department of Education. And you, um, you had been telling me about your position there as the Assistant Director. And, the transition of moving into the directorship. Which I believe you held for about four years before you retired in 1977.

THOMAS: Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm.

BRINSON: Tell me a little about your responsibilities as the Director.

THOMAS: Oh! [Laughs.] Uh, I, as I said before, when I was Assistant Director, the Director found out what I could do as far as writing proposals, evaluating proposals. When he found that out, for the three years I was under him, most of the time, that’s what I did. And as a result, so, when I got to be Director, that, I, it wasn’t any problem for me, to bear out my responsibility as Director. Other than, I did have to go--travel a lot and visit the schools that had problems dealing with integration or desegregation as you want to call it.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And, can you give me, an example there? Do you recall any of the schools, any of the issues that came up? Um, around integration that you were asked to, to consult about?

THOMAS: Yeah, yes. I have, because uh, uh, there was some of the schools that had problems that see—it was, with, with the cheerleaders. Then some of the schools had problems with, the, uh, dealing with sports. And, then, some of them had problems because they didn’t have minority teachers.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And when you say cheerleaders, um--can you …?

THOMAS: In all, in, in, in the schools they have the cheerleader selection, and some of them felt like, that some of the, the--they called them black—see, now, just like I told you, I don’t consider myself in that category. Some of them felt like that some of the black kids, were denied some of the positions on the cheerleading squad. And as the results, they, uh, that caused a problem, a community problem, it’s, it’s community-relation type thing.

BRINSON: Did, the Department of Education at that time, have any authority? Over these kinds of situations, or were you, merely there more in an advisory capacity, do you think?

THOMAS: Well. . . .mine was mostly Federal, see, because I was a federal. . . responsibility. And I had to contact and make out reports to the Federal Government as to what the school said, and, and the, uh, makeup of the school as it, it, it involved race or something.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And so, I, I was responsible to the Federal Government. Now, the Federal, people, that represents the Federal Government, would intercede. And we, I had a director, a, a, supervisor that came from, Atlanta. And whenever we had problems sometimes he would go in and resolve some of these problems.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now when they felt like, that sometimes that the Federal Government was involved, you didn’t have—and some of them got funds, you know, for the programs we’d have, like Title III and Title I and some of those programs. And, then, they would say, now then, if we don’t correct this, well, then, your funds probably be cut off.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. For, for those people who are listening or reading the transcript, what--can you, just describe briefly what Title III and Title I, are about? What, what are they there to do? Or were they there to do? They put money in, back into Kentucky to be used in the schools for, what?

THOMAS: Now you see the, the schools--uh, were, were interested in getting funds to improve their programs in the schools. And then, the Federal Government had what they call Title I and Title III, and I had to include some of those things in my proposal when, when, I wrote it, for the Federal Government. And then, of course the federal--they had federal supervision. Uh, checking up on these types of things we were doing, that were going on. Now, for instance, one of the things they had, had ah, had a problem in, in changing the makeup of schools in Jefferson County; the largest, school complex that we had. And then, some of the teachers had problems, of, uh, the job positions that they had. before, integration, and after the integration started, and the responsibilities they had after integration. Now then, we, we ah--, to. . . uh, to relieve some of the problems they had, we had workshops to come in. And we had had individuals from out of state have, they had a program, oh, at, uh, University of Tennessee. Now I can’t think of the names of what they--but they had ah, a team that would come in and have workshops dealing with the, improving relationships and everything.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now, the thing that often happens, sometimes after they had been here, my supervisor from Atlanta couldn’t come up to find out what was going on; whether they had proceeded to carry out some of the activities and programs that they thought. Then I had to, make the--travel around and find out and, and investigate what was going on; and whether they improved any. Now then, I would report to my ( ) person, when the asked for funds again then, they had a problem receiving these funds if they weren’t carrying out the, uh,

directions that was given them.

BRINSON: Okay. ‘Course you, you were in office, um, at KDE, during the whole beginning of bussing in Jefferson County.

THOMAS: That’s right.

BRINSON: That was, that came about,

THOMAS: That was …

BRINSON: Because of, of a, a judicial order.

THOMAS: That’s right.

BRINSON: By Judge Gordon. What, what, um, did the Department have any involvement in that?

THOMAS: Nn--I--let’s see. I’m trying to figure out just exactly, what the State. . . Department did. In a case like that. And I think, more or less, the federal government had more, uh, had to intercede more than, than the State, uh, Department did.

BRINSON: Did, did you, as an employee at the Department have any involvement at all in the bussing?

THOMAS: In the bussing?

BRINSON: In Jefferson County?

THOMAS: No. I didn’t.

BRINSON: No, okay. You, you didn’t have to go over at any point to, look into things, there? Because of Federal money or. . . ?

THOMAS: Oh, yes. I did [laughs]. I, I, ( ) mislead. Well, when they had Federal funds, at that particular time, when they had problems that were related to bussing situations, and some of the parents and, and, and, uh, sections had complaints. Why I’d have to go over to help solve some of the problems that they have and see if we couldn’t get them resolved. And then, it’s a results, you know, they, they, uh, elected uh, . . . ah, a minority, a, a Deputy Superintendent in Louisville.

BRINSON: Um, and, and what was his role?

THOMAS: He, his role was dealing with those, uh, mostly problems that related to, uh, the desegregation process.

BRINSON: Okay. You think bussing was a good thing? In hindsight?

THOMAS: Hmm?

BRINSON: Do you think bussing was a good thing?

THOMAS: Uh, I don’t—I really—In some instances it might have been. And some of us, some of us, I think depending on where they were bussed and from what schools, and for the purpose that they used to bussing.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: If they, if they, if some of them had to, bus all the way across the county, you know, then as a result that didn’t make sense at all when they had schools in the, the neighborhood that they could’ve attended.

BRINSON: So you retired in 1977? And then what?

THOMAS: Seventy-seven? After that, I have been involved with church, community, and, and community activities. Religious and community activities.

BRINSON: I’m going to stop you just a minute and turn the tape over.

THOMAS: Okay.

END SIDE TWO TAPE TWO

BEGIN SIDE ONE TAPE THREE

BRINSON: --is showing me a beautiful, um. . . clock, with a description on it—that--in which he was been recognized for the Caverna Wall of Fame in the year 2000. And Caverna was the name of the school. . . uh, that you were the, the Principal of. The all-black school, is that correct?

THOMAS: No, it, the all-black school was Horse Cave Colored High School.

BRINSON: Oh, Caverna, right, that’s right, is the integrated …

THOMAS: It’s integrated school …

BRINSON: I’m sorry, I’ve got, got it backwards here. Um, well that’s lovely. Well tell me, tell me just a little bit about, you said, the church. The Methodist Church …?

THOMAS: Yes.

BRINSON: And now you’re, certainly being recognized by all kinds of groups and people and whatnot. Um. . . what about the years, um, since you retired that has been most important to you?

THOMAS: Oh, gee. . . [laughs]. I—well, I got involved with the—you know the, the uh, Methodists merged. Had a merging. Used to be Kentucky Conference and Louisville Conference. Being in Frankfort I was with the Lou--, it was with the Kentucky Conference. When I, uh, when I. . . started activities, I, I went, it was, ah, accepted in the, in the Kentucky Conference. And, the Lexington Con—in the Frankfort Conf—in the Frankfort, the Frankfort, was a representative in the, our Kentucky Conference. And, I was, uh, elected for, on the committees for Religion and Race. Because of the problems we had in church, problems just like they did the school problems. I was, uh, . . . uh, asked to serve on the, uh, Commission of Health and Welfare. Then, I was elected Chairman of the Commission on Health and Welfare and our responsibilities dealt with--dealing with the, with the, uh, . . in, hosp, hospitals. And, uh …

BRINSON: Now, was that, that Commission part of the Methodist Church?

THOMAS: Yes, that was our conference.

BRINSON: Okay. Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, then, uh, then, then, the children’s homes—

BRINSON: The children’s homes?

THOMAS: And things, those things like that, dealing with those problems--in the--seeing that they, well, could, care out some responsibility to do that.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And that was, uh, uh, a rewarding experience for, for me. Then I was elected Trustee to the Children’s Home, at Versailles. Methodist Home, Kentucky Home for Children and Youth. And I served. . . that term, you could serve eight years. I served eight years on that. Then, I was impressed to the fact that then, I was elected to the, uh, Policy Committee, with the—I don’t mean the policy, I mean the, Finance Committee.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: Now then, of course, we didn’t have records, ah, we met about every three months with the, full Board. But sometimes we, I had to meet with the, uh, Finance Committee three times a week. Then, I could drive, and I would go over and, from here to Versailles, wasn’t any problem. And then, uh, I stayed on, and I’m, I’m still a member of, and then I’m on the Friends of the Children’s, they have another program that supports the Trustees, in providing things that the—the Trustees don’t have the funds for, for the homes. And, uh – I’m still on the Friends of the children’s Board, I guess they said I’m, a. . . a permanent member on that, because when, uh, it was one of those things, my wife and I supported. And when she passed, instead of flowers, people made contributions to the home, to help, uh, uh, restore, uh remodel the dining hall. They did that. Now they have the dining hall remodeled and. . . in memory of my wife and in my honor.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: So it’s—that, that’s, that’s one of the more rewarding things that I’ve found that I’ve been to. Then at my church here, I ( ) see I’m going talk about religious things – I have been in the choir. . .ever since the first year I joined the First United Methodist Church. And see I’m the only non-white in the choir.

BRINSON: You—say that again?

THOMAS: I’m the only non-white in the choir.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And I’m remembering Dr. Harmon--said, “Well, then, uh, he was glad that I was, considered joining the choir, because he wanted to put a little color in it. (Brinson laughs) The thing that happens …

BRINSON: Now are you a, are you a tenor?

THOMAS: A Bass.

BRINSON: A bass, okay.

THOMAS: Yeah, okay then, and I’ve been in the choir now for thirty-three years.

BRINSON: Mmm. Okay.

THOMAS: And I, I sing with—we have a madrigal group, we have a Chautauqua program, I—I participate in all of those programs.

BRINSON: Chautauqua?

THOMAS: Uh-huh. Chautauqua. We have this program and have it outside at the church. Uh, for the, in August. Every Sunday, in, during the week of August. ‘Course we have a lot of rehearsals for that. Then we have the madrigals, here, at Christmas time. We have the dinner and the performances and things. And I don’t sing with the, backup group, I mean I don’t sing with the f—with the regular group, the dress-up group, but I—we—I sing with the choir part.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: The, activities in that. Then, uh, I, I’ve been on the, uh, I’m with the Methodist Men. Then, I’m regular with the Methodist Men.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And, uh. . .

BRINSON: Now, I know that …

THOMAS: Oh, I taught Sunday School [laughs], that’s another thing. I, I taught the high school Sunday School students, for fifteen years. And I have a little pin for when I, when--that they gave me when I went to the regular class because we had, uh, a young man that was, ah, in charge of the MYF: the Methodist Youth, Group. And, uh. . . he didn’t have--he had problems trying to get enough of them to attend. So I said to him, I said, “Well, you teach my Sunday School class. Then you’ll maybe be able to involve them to come over and join the, evening programs in the MYF.” And he did. I talk--I taught them for fifteen years. Now all of those children are the ones that I still, uh, in contact with. They all have been my friends. Only thing about it, it’s just about, all the girls--when they got ready to get married--well the boys too, that I taught, in that group. Uh, they, I have to attend their wedding and ‘course that involves gifts. And, they had one shop here, they said, “Well, who was in your class getting’ married now?” Now, some of those, uh, youngsters that I taught back there, then, I have a little program that I started; a mission that they say it is, a sucker children. I started out as …

BRINSON: Say it’s called?

THOMAS: Sucker children.

BRINSON: How do you spell that?

THOMAS: Lollipop.

BRINSON: Oh, sucker children?

THOMAS: Sucker children.

BRINSON: Oh, ooh, that’s clever!

THOMAS: So they called them suckers. Now then, I started out with, uh, some of the--uh, the parents that I have now. Now, I’ve got all these little ones. And I had, started out with four little, uh, special ones. Well, I have sixteen now. Every Sunday they come to me, uh, after, the, after choir for their suckers. And this--and then, uh, the rewarding thing about that--that’s one of the most, uh, encouraging things and rewarding things, in my mission, since I’ve been retired is that I get these kids look to me for suckers.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: They come to me every Sunday. If they, and if I, I will say, “I don’t have any suckers today.” Then they’ll tell me, “That’s alright, Mr. Thomas, I love you just the same.” And that means more to me than anything else.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: Had one little girl, just three years old, she comes every month, every, uh, Sunday after choir, when she’s there, with her, her mother, father, who, tell me she has to wait until I get my robe off and come in the choir room. And, and she said, she comes. . . her father says, she told, uh, him, said, “You know I don’t go to see Mr. Thomas because of , uh, he gives me suckers.” He said, “Oh why do you go?” Said, “He’s always smiling. And that makes me smile. And makes me feel good.”

BRINSON: That’s really sweet.

THOMAS: And I’ll tell you that little girl, you know--she saw me--I didn’t have suckers one, one Sunday. And she told me, she said, “Mr. Thomas, I tell you what you do. You go to Wal-Mart. And you buy some suckers. And then, instead of taking them home, bring them to church and put them in the closet down here. They’ll always be here, and you’ll have suckers.” Now, to show you what—she’s just three years old—my birthday, she gave me a present. She had it all wrapped up, her father said she picked out, the present herself, and the paper. The paper had these little girls and things on it. And, she had it taped to death. And, I said, “Well, what do you want me to do?” She said--I said, “I’ll take it home, I’ll open it.” She said, “No, I want you to open it now.” I had a time getting it open. Do you imagine what she had? Well, she had bought up a sack of suckers, wrapped them up. (Brinson laughs) So she said, “She had some more, ulterior motive in it [laughs] in giving you that, she wanted to make sure you would always have suckers.”

BRINSON: {Laughs) Oh, that’s funny.

THOMAS: So, that’s, that’s one of the—one of the most rewarding of these things that I do. And, and now …

BRINSON: Right.

TH OMAS: Now, other than I sing in the choir every Sunday. And I told the Minister of Music, now, Tennessee knows I have, ah, vision …

BRINSON: Well, and I want to ask you about, your vision.

THOMAS: And, he, see, now he, he has, I think, I can read, the anthems on black and white. But, with, ah, hymnals, I can’t read …

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: He has, them, blown up on the sheet. . . all the, hymns that we’re going to sing, to go in the folder and, when, and so I can sit in the choir and can sing the hymns. I don’t have any trouble with the anthems.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And then, uh, I told him, I said, “At my age, I should be [laughs], able to, retire quiet and let some of these young people …” He said, “The only way you can retire from the choir is, you have to go to the Great Beyond.” And I said, “I’m on my way, but I’m not rushing it.” (laughter both) So that means I’m still in the choir.

BRINSON: At what point did you begin to have problems with your vision? And I believe you--you were--you have now been declared legally blind?

THOMAS: That’s right.

BRINSON: But you still have some vision?

THOMAS: Oh, I have, I, no, my vision is with smaller things. That’s the reason I have the machine. With larger things I don’t. The first time that I had any, any eye problem at all, was. . . oh, it must have been about sixty. . . sixty-two or sixty-three and I was at Western Kentucky University. And I noticed when I got ready to make my assignments and to read, I had trouble with my eyes. Then, when I went to the doctor, that’s when--at first he said, well, he gave me glasses: bifocals. Then, I, I used bifocals ( ), and they worked pretty well till I came here, to Frankfort, in, ah, sixty-nine. Then I started having trouble with my eyes again. Doctor checked them out and said I had cataracts. And, uh, so, then he, uh, we removed the cataracts. I was doing fine with that, then. Then I started having, uh, some, uh, problems again. And then I went on, and they checked them out, and they found that, uh, Dr. Kinker said it was, he thought it was, I’d have to a specialist in Lexington. And they found out that it was due to macular degeneration. And, at that time, I didn’t know, about the macular and I--what’s, what’s going on? They said, “The only thing about that, I didn’t have the wet kind of macular, I had the dry. And, and that, having the dry, meant that, uh, if they had been bleeding, it healed itself. The scar tissue was the thing that was causing the--my, uh, problem--vision problem. And I had to go through all of these tests at the Eagle Creek--on the bleeding--people dealing, ‘cause Dr. Wood was the last one I saw that told me, that told them, that I’d, just have to stop driving all together. And so, uh, he’s in this research program, too. He’s the--I saw three different doctors in, at Eagle Creek.

BRINSON: And how old were you when you stopped driving?

THOMAS: Huh? Ooh [laughs], I was . . . let me see. I was. . . uh. . . I was, [laughs], must have been. . . eighty-five, I guess.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: I got that car in ninety-seven.

BRINSON: Okay, and you still have a car?

THOMAS: And I had, ah, that green car out there.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: I got it in ninety-seven. I drove it a month.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And then I had to--the doctor said I couldn’t drive anymore. And I, and, it, it had figured--what had figured out was the fact that, uh, for a while, my wife used to tell me--you know, I’d have trouble, that, I’d move over too far when I got ready to turn the corner; so she says--when she told me I was having a problem with my eyes it shouldn’t be. Then, uh, after—then, that, too much was driving, before he told me to stop. I would tell him, he’d ask me well what, what problems I had. And I would get behind cars, and it looked like the wheels was traveling, wasn’t straight. Nothing straight. So of course they said, “Now I have macular degeneration but don’t have any glaucoma.” They said it’s not going to get any worse, but it’s not going to get any better until they find some …

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: Something that they can do about it.

BRINSON: Okay. When we met last time, you had, ah, you were just coming in from having voted. It was an election day. And I wonder if you, um, mind telling me, do you have a party that you tend to vote for? Have you ever been involved in a campaign?

THOMAS: Well, now, I have a party I vote for. And I’m a Democrat [chuckles]. And uh, I, and then I, people’s—what, they, couldn’t understand at Horse Cave if they knew I was a Democrat. And, uh, it was one fellow that I used to go for at a clothing store, and said, “That was unusual, that, uh, I was a Methodist, and, and, uh, and a Democrat, that was unusual for a person that wasn’t white.” A minority. But they didn’t have a Methodist Church. Well they had a Methodist Church when I was there.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: But when schools were integrated, I had to visit all the Methodist churches and talk with the youth and talk with the people of the church ,and tell them that it would work. So then, after the schools were integrated I went to the schools, well the pastor of the. . . white Methodist, the Methodist church now, that’s the only white, only church that had Methodists. So he wanted, he said, “Well, they would rather have you up there than some of the members that they have.” And I said, “Well, no, I’ll tell you. I’ve been working with these people in the Baptist Church. And they, uh, as such. And since I’ve been working for them, and the, and the people in the black community look to me for anything that comes up in the community; it’s just, it’s, that regards any legal things that I have to support them. They got to the place where I have to help to, I have to lead and conduct in their Vacation Bible School.” And I said, “I wouldn’t, the only way that I would leave those people, even though, for a while, they didn’t, ah, ah, accept me fully because they wouldn’t, I couldn’t take Communion.” Now my wife was Baptist. But she grew up in Illinois. And it, and it wasn’t any different up there. Oh, you, when you look at my wife you know she’s not – uh, the, anyway—but, uh. . . They, when we, when they served Communion, they wouldn’t serve me Communion, ‘cause I’m Methodist.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: And my wife wouldn’t take Communion.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, then, it finally got to the place, I taught Sunday School for them. So finally, one pastor said, “Methodists didn’t have any business teaching Baptist Sunday School.” So I just said, “Okay. I’ll stop teaching.” But I didn’t stop attending the adult class. So I attended that class and finally the class said, “Well I’ll tell you,” they went to the pastor, said, “I’ll tell you what, If Mr. Thomas can’t come back and teach our class, we’re going to see if we can’t find another minister.” So, he, I went back, sometimes I’d go over and have services in the afternoon. I’d have to open the service, conduct the service there, ‘cause the Deacons wouldn’t be there. So they finally, uh, accepted the fact that I was a, a Christian. But I just belonged to the wrong church. See, the denomination doesn’t mean a thing.

BRINSON: It didn’t have anything to do with your color—

THOMAS: Huh?

BRINSON: Had nothing to do with your color?

THOMAS: No, no. Uh-huh.

BRINSON: More of the fact that you were–

THOMAS: A Methodist.

BRINSON: Methodist. Right.

THOMAS: Because I had some, some, some of the kids in my--when I was Principal of the all-black, all-colored school. Uh, that, they, uh, their parents were pastors. Of the church.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: But, it, they’d two Baptist Churches there.

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: And, and, children from both of them. I attended both churches.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Yeah. Okay, and so. . .

BRINSON: I have, I have one last question I want to ask you and this may take a little bit. Um, for you to think through, and for me to ask. Um, let me preface it by saying, that, um, you’re ninety years old. You’ve been involved in. . . um, lots of areas in terms of opening up relations for black and whites—

THOMAS: Hmm.

BRINSON: Um, you’ve seen, ah, public accommodations come along, and school integration,

THOMAS: Yes.

BRINSON: And, um. . . and I, wonder, if, if you would sort of reflect on that a little bit? You know, where, where do you think the black community is today? For example, and. . . what, what sort of progress have we really made in. . . what we need to do yet?

THOMAS: Well—I, I really think we—I think we’ve made progress. Made a lot of progress. As a matter of fact, when they, when, ah, when the. . . when the schools were integrated down there, at first there were some of those places that they, that didn’t accept black people. And, that presented a problem, they would accept me but they wouldn’t accept, anybody else. And of course they had some that brought suits on the restaurant people. But now, now then I had these friends that were teacher friends of mine, and we would go, well let’s go for lunch and they, they never did, know any difference, see. Didn’t have any problems with that. Now, I, I haven’t had any problems. During the course of my involvement in education and religion at all. I don’t have, I, I haven’t had any problems as far as, uh, our Conference is concerned. Haven’t had any problems with the, as far as the church is concerned. The only, only thing that happens, is the fact that, uh, some of the black people, feel like. . . . Said, uh, . . . you know, all my friends, and I’ve got three different friends at the, are special friends of mine. Had, uh, they, ah, are, white. And they said, “Why is it that all you, your close friends are white?” Just like that young lady, I got two, I don’t have but three though. Is that, that what--and I said, “Because, that, they’re the people that I’ve been around all my life. In the schools. In the church, I’m in the church I was the only one in there, the church pew.” That they had this special reception for me. And they said--they believe--they said, “I believe you’ve got more friends than anybody in town.” And, and they don’t make any, any differences at all. And see, now, the thing that happened--and I don’t know whether I told you this--when the KEA was integrated. When, when, the call, KEA integrated. They said, “Attend these meetings, you can attend them; workshops, they’d invite you. I, as an administrator, I was--I attended. And, and, uh, let’s see, Anita Wilson, Miz Gardner from Newburg, and Mr. Knuckles from Isom. We would attend all the time. The other, black people, they didn’t attend. I said, “Well why don’t you all attend these things?” “Oh, they’d give you the invitation, they don’t want to be bothered with you.” That’s that, and they’re supposed to be intelligent people. Now, then, they had KNEA you know, before, they had, the black. . .

BRINSON: And that’s the Kentucky Negro Educational Association?

THOMAS: . . Educational Association. They had that. Well, when it integrated, they kept a segment of theirs, down on Walnut Street, then, it’s Mohammed Ali Boulevard. They met at a church down there. We were, I’m up here with these folks, meeting with, with the KEA.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm, the Kentucky Educational Association—

THOMAS: The Kentucky Educational Association—and, then, they, and I’d heard of them, they had their organization as a watchdog. And I said, “It’s a watchdog. What are you watching? Are you watching yourself? You, if you don’t, if you don’t attend the meetings up there, you don’t even know what’s going on.” Now, then, what happened,. . . the four of us, that had done--attended the KEA appointed us to some responsible, uh, positions. And, uh, in that, you know. Then, . . . uh, we attended the meetings all the time. And, they, they complained about that. “Why were we the ones that was always selected?” And Dr. Dodson was in charge of KEA at that time. He had a, he called a meeting in Louisville, in his office. And had all of these people who’d complained to come. He said, “I want you to come here and I’m going to explain why. That when you see we have any program and you see them involved? Is, because, we, they’re the only ones we know. We don’t know anything about you all, you never take a, take a part in any of our activities. So how we’re going to appoint you to something we don’t know yet?”

BRINSON: Mm. You think that their response to you was that they, um, that KEA really. . . didn’t want them there? Wanted to invite them--do you do think that was valid? Or what did you think was going on?

THOMAS: Well, now, you know. . . right now, you know. When it comes to some of the activities in the church, you find that a lot of the black people don’t want to be involved, in, this. . . see that’s the reason we don’t have a—they have an AME church here.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And then, we interchange services together, but as far as their members, uh, why would they have to be, two, two Methodist churches? But of course they--different, uh, branch, I understand, if that came about as a result of, uh, . . . oh, I don’t know at one time they did, were all together and they pulled out because they felt like they weren’t being--but a lot ( ), well a lot of the blacks, felt like, oh, well when you’re in the organization you won’t be--you won’t get any recognition, you lose your identity. I haven’t lost my identity. I was at--I went to Western Kentucky--Western University, when they had a police riot. Had eight hundred administrators down there. I. . . attended out of all of them I was the only one that was down there, non-white. And I’m not saying anything to invite me to ( ). I’ll attend.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And that’s the way it is with my church …

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: …affairs.

BRINSON: I wonder, Mr. Thomas, is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you’d like to add before we close?

THOMAS: Well, the only thing I wanted to tell you about, when you asked me about the funds and the sports. . . What I did--it just came to mind. I did, have a--set up a tennis court. We played tennis. I set up a volleyball court. We did, uh, have volleyball. We had softball teams, girls teams and boys teams. When you asked me about that.

BRINSON: This is back when you were Principal of …?

THOMAS: The black school, at Horse Cave,

BRINSON: And coached.

THOMAS: Yeah. That’s right.

BRINSON: And how did you raise the money?

THOMAS: Now, that’s another thing, I, told you, you asked me about the funds and I said, “Well, I want to clear that up.” The thing that, the way that we raised funds, sometimes we would have plays at our school to promote, our, our programs. That, ah, drama teachers would, uh, conduct, have programs, and we’d charge a little fee for them to come in and use that. Another thing, we’d have sandwiches and things like that. And we’d raise funds like that. Another thing, there used to be, uh, a magician used to come around.

BRINSON: A what?

THOMAS: A magician.

BRINSON: A magician?

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: Now, then, I remember his name, of Fetique Sanders. And—

BRINSON: Say that name?

THOMAS: Fetique Sanders.

BRINSON: Fee—take?

THOMAS: Fetique.

BRINSON: Like?

THOMAS: F-E-T-I-Q-U-E, I think it’s called.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And, Sanders, he, he performed. And, he would come in, and we could charge a fee for his admittance. And then, he would, we would divide the funds. So that gave us an income. They had another group, a fellow only one but two of them, don’t think, called Uncle Bozo. He would, played, he was a comedian, and a, and musician. They would--he would come, and would promote another program. The funds from that came, that’s one, another way that we, we got funds for our programs. And, uh. . . oh, then, then of course a lot of, a lot of people used to like the minstrels, minstrels, you know. And, then, they got excited about it, we’d teach the boys and get them together and have a minstrel.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And, and people would attend, and we had--and then would have funds from that.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, a number of times where I’ve interviewed people, about, um, the black schools, they told me that the black school also functioned as, like a community center for the black community.

THOMAS: Oh, that’s right. Only, when, then, at the church service, you know, when some of these quartets and all, those groups, you know? Uh, they’d put, would come to the school--church would have them. We’d let them, perform at our school in what was our auditorium then. And, uh, and we’d, we’d let them have those, those types of things. And, if the church wanted to use the school, well, let them. And the Democratic Party, uh, the Republican Party wanted to use the school for a meeting. Well, we didn’t have them--the Democrats didn’t need to--meeting space--meet, the Republicans didn’t have a place to meet. I would let them meet over there, because they, most of the black people in the—well, of them, I guess, I don’t know--because if there was another black Democrat in Horse cave. Uh, the Republicans would want to meet.

BRINSON: And most of the blacks in Horse Cave were Republicans?

THOMAS: That’s right.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And, see, what I did, I would do—I’d let them use the school. I would go up and turn the lights on, so then, so they could meet in the auditorium. And, then, when the meeting was over, I’d ask, them to be responsible for seeing that, the school’s locked up. And I, I think that, I don’t know whether I told you about the gym situation at all. You find that when I, when I, ah, thought that they, at that time should have built a gym for us.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm..

THOMAS: But, uh, they didn’t. But then they built a new gym at the white school. And I said, “Well, now, why don’t you take the old gym, move it over to my school? Put it down where my outdoor court is?” Well, what had happened, and I told you at first, we had these, uh, four rooms and made it into six. But then they, the state funds said, “No, you’ve got to have more, room, at the school.” So they took that gym and added two more rooms on to it, on my school.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: I’ve got some pictures of those--

BRINSON: Well that’s a pretty big project to move the gym.

THOMAS: Yeah. . . yeah, [laughs]

BRINSON: Um.

THOMAS: Yeah, it’d be better than building one, I guess--but they had the--but they tore it down and, and moved all of the lumber, you know.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Right.

THOMAS: Oh, well, and they were going to tear it down and rebuild.

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: But what--they tore it down, but they built two new rooms. But, the rooms I had at the end of my school, two large rooms, well, it was, came from the, uh, lumber out of the gym. In their gym.

BRINSON: In the white school?

THOMAS: In the white school. Yeah. Now, then, by doing then I told them,” “First,” I said--told them, “First, we didn’t have any running water over there. They have a cistern.” And the cistern, and I had a problem there because I, well, the kids would get ready to get the water and, I looked, and I said, “That’s got wiggletails in it.” And, and, I went to the Board--asked the permission from the Board--and I said, “That cistern, the water has wiggletails in it. And I, can’t believe, that you want those kids to drink--don’t do a better job of keeping it straight.” One old fellow on the board said, “Well, I drank a many wiggletail in my life. I said, “Well, I don’t want my kids to drink wiggletails.” So what we did,. . . they. . . they had some fellow to come , and. . .clean, the, uh, cistern. Put a pump on it, and, a filter. Said, “Now, that lasted until I, complained about not having running water over there.” And then they told me what had happened, said, “They wanted to put running water in the, on that community in that section of town. They couldn’t get enough people to subscribe to take the water.” So then I got with the community and I told them what the problem might be. And I don’t know whether they ever, even wanted to, uh, go to the procedure, to have one; but I told them, “I want that”. And I said, “Well now, then you subscribe.” The people said, “Well, now, we’d subscribe for the water, if they’d bring it over here.”

BRINSON: Let me stop and turn the …

END TAPE THREE SIDE ONE

BEGIN TAPE THREE SIDE TWO

THOMAS: So …

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: And then I went to the person in charge of the water company. And he said, “Yeah.” So then they did run the water over there. Then they ran the water up to the school. That got rid of the system business. Well, see, we had these outhouses, way down in the yards, way down where the kids had to go. Now, the, the, coat runs, where that had, that went all across the run,

BRINSON: The, the what?

THOMAS: The, peg, where you would hang your coat.

BRINSON: A coat rack?

THOMAS: Coat run. Coat racks. Well, then, they, it had that, on, one room, because they had, the, uh, little stairway and little, uh, exits, uh, out of the rooms, coming down the steps, after they put the other part off. And, one on one side and one on the other and they put the, uh, restrooms, there, for the kids. Made out of that. And then we had a fountain. I didn’t—well, a lot of the things I did myself, to give some of the folks that down there that were friends with plumbers, and, carpenter. And installed, the fountains in the hallway, up, at the entrance, up at the other end of the building. And so then they had, had water.

BRINSON: What about your textbooks?

THOMAS: Ooh.

BRINSON: You bought those.

THOMAS: I, I didn’t tell you about that. You know, when I was growing up, you had to buy your own books. But you know they had this, when I got to Horse Cave it was free textbooks.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: So, they had the textbooks. Every time they’d change the adoptions of textbooks, we didn’t get the new adoptions. They’d give us the ones that, uh, that they had. Bring them over to my school and we’d use--I said, “You would think we’re going to be four years behind.” But that didn’t make any difference, we were still going to use those and, and---so, that’s the problem I had with that. They didn’t give us new adoptions.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: We had to get the ones that they’d had for four years. I think it was every four years they’d change the adoptions. Well, they’d move, they’ give them to me, take my old ones, dump them, or whatever they did with them, and, and, give me those that they had used for four years.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm. Did you have a parent, like a, a, PTA? In your school, a parent …

THOMAS: Oh, yes I did. Yes we did.

BRINSON: What was it called? Was it called the parent, or the PTA?

THOMAS: Called the Parent-Teachers’ Association. Yeah. PTA, yeah. And, now, then, I had some of those--oh, now, then, that, uh, the, parents, had, a, oh, would, they’d support the school. Totally. And, and, they sometimes--you asked me about funds--sometimes they would have some, affair or something that would raise funds for the school; they certainly did. And then--well now then--when, the only thing about it, when the schools were integrated and had, went to Caverna, well, I had, some of the, uh, parents, some of the students I’d had that had finished school, and, well, would participate in the Parent-Teacher Association. So they would participate in the Parent-Teacher Association at Caverna. Yeah.

BRINSON: How were they received by the other, white parents at Caverna?

THOMAS: You know, I, that’s one thing I’m proud of? The fact that here, we never did have any problems as far as, a race, after we decided we were going in to integrate the schools. Now, and we never did have any problems as far as the, uh, the people were concerned.

BRINSON: Okay.

THOMAS: No, they, they accepted each other. Well, they gave them responsible positions and all… Now then, I had some youngsters that had been in high school and had just started, and they didn’t have an opportunity to go to college at that time and didn’t have any funds, you know. That and some of them, outstanding students and their children, have done exceptionally well and got good jobs now.

BRINSON: As the Principal of the all-black school, did, did you have any, um, did you work with these young people to talk to them about coming up to Kentucky State, or going out of the state, or …

THOMAS: Yes, we, with those that could afford it.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And we had, I, I, some of them had, I know of one family, I’m ( ) they say, they had a big family, and they had, three of their girls went to Kentucky State and all of them graduated from Kentucky State, had some that came from the county, down Hart County, and I had two, had three from Hart County that were my student that finished Kentucky State and came back and taught with me.

BRINSON: And were there any other Kentucky colleges that you looked to for …

THOMAS: Oh, yes, they, some of them went to Tennessee State.

BRINSON: Tennessee.

THOMAS: Yeah, and, and, uh, . . . And, then, let me see. I’m trying to—oh, we had, we had some that went to Fisk. They didn’t have any trouble as far entering the college at all, and, then, became outstanding students.

BRINSON: But now …

THOMAS: Oh, now, some of them, let me see, well some of them went to Municipal College in Louisville.

BRINSON: Mm-hmm, okay.

THOMAS: Yeah.

BRINSON: Well, and then, then, the Kentucky Higher Ed was integrated in 1950, when the Day Law was struck down; and Lyman Johnson was the plaintiff. At, at that point, um, what was the atmosphere like in terms of trying to direct young black students to the all-white Kentucky colleges?

THOMAS: To the black Kentucky colleges?

BRINSON: No, to the white.

THOMAS: Oh, to the white.

BRINSON: The University of Kentucky, or—

THOMAS: Well, most, well, most of them did go to the--well, either went to the University of Kentucky or the University of Tennessee or some other place. Then, see, now, that was another thing. Uh, I was one of the first to graduate from the University of Kentucky after the, got the Lyman Johnson decision.

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: Now, you notice, every year they have some kind of--have them come back--have some kind of meeting, recognition up there. So I think that’s sponsored by the NAACP.

BRINSON: You mean the recognition they do now?

THOMAS: Mm?

BRINSON: Or, who sponsored? What does the NAACP—

THOMAS: I mean—They have—a, National Association for the Advancement of Colored People—

BRINSON: I know, but what--what did--I’m not clear …

THOMAS: I mean, they’re the ones that, mostly, uh, evidently, I think they have the representative of the University of Kentucky that deals with those, uh, with the black people.

BRINSON: Right.

THOMAS: And, so, they, the Association, they deal with--the NAACP. I don’t belong to the NAACP, I never did, ‘cause I didn’t believe in what they were doing.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: So, that, now then, that was another thing. I—we won the state championship two years, went three and won it two. They never did recognize me as coach of the year. The black teams did.

BRINSON: Hmm.

THOMAS: That’s ‘cause, it was Kentucky High School Athletic League. Then, and, uh …

BRINSON: By the way, Mr. Sandford Roach …

THOMAS: Oh, yes …

BRINSON: --Sends you greetings,

THOMAS: Thank you.

BRINSON: I talked with him recently,

THOMAS: We were in school together and been good friends, and when I was induced in Dawahares he came up, [laughs] and said, “Aw, Newton, you don’t know who I am.” I said, I said, “Now, Roach, how do you think I’d forget you?” And, and, uh, he had, he had the book he wanted me to sign it. You saw it, you’ve seen that book, haven’t you?

BRINSON: Mm-hmm, his new book? Right, Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: I mean, I know, I’m talking about my program, when I was inducted …

BRINSON: Oh, oh, okay, right.

THOMAS: Yeah. And he came up to—and talk to me and he was so happy, say, it was something that should have been done long time ago. Ah, that was another thing we had at our church. Uh, uh, program. That, uh, had a, Good Samaritan And, and, uh, had a problem with the Board. Uh, they. . . we questioned them not having a Methodist on, uh – let me see, how was that now? A Methodist representative on the board. A minority. They said, “We have one.” And said, “It’s Sandford Roach is on the Board.” They said, “He’s not United Methodist. [laughs]. You don’t have, have anybody from our church.” Well, uh, and, well, they didn’t want to place some of our, our whites on the Board, you know; when the Board ( ) this game up. And we had a problem with that. And as a matter of fact, we broke the, close relationship with this ( ) hospital on that account. Now, we, they, they still use us and we’re, we have an affiliation. Well, they withdrew, I think, whatever, they’ll affiliate with our, our conference, the United Methodist. But, uh, we, we’re not, uh, actually in the United Methodist book.

BRINSON: Talk to me a little bit, if you will, please, about why you never joined the NAACP. You said you have …

THOMAS: Oh!

BRINSON: …differences of opinion.

THOMAS: I did. Because. . . to me, I may be--ah, know--I hope I wasn’t wrong. They would take up issues sometimes. . . uh, dealing with, uh, not being accepted to something, and they’d get--go to court and want to, prove that this should be done. And, I, and I, don’t think, actually if they were sincere in what they were doing the people that were lawyers in there; they were the ones that were benefiting from that, because they was getting these lawyers’ fees. As such. I didn’t think—well, I have never had any trouble being, uh, accepted at anything, without having to go to court to do it. And I think if you--I said, “You--as a matter fact--you, let’s get some people, you just—accept and be recognized for what you are. Personally.” And, some of them, you know, just like they did now, talking about your, having a special, uh, language change for the tests and things. Some of the tests were unfair. And I said, “I took every test. I couldn’t tell, I was taught the same thing that the whites were taught. I didn’t have any trouble passing tests. I didn’t have any trouble with them accepting me because I tried to carry myself in a, in such way that people would, uh, accept me; and that’s the reason these people in Frankfort tell you, I don’t think there’s anybody, I don’t think anybody is more highly respected or had more friends than you.” And I said--I, a lot of things, ah, you know, and then, just like I tell you, on--if the Higher Educational Assistance started the board with the, oh, with the millionaires and all and they elected me Chairman of the Board. And ah, in, in, most of the. . . programs I’ve been involved in, I haven’t had any problem with them. I didn’t ask them to keep doing special favors for me. Now when I was at UK there’s some blacks, there at the same time I was. And they had, had--uh, they had been attending some of these classes and all--say, and they would tell me, “Man, you don’t want to get in that class. That guy’s prejudiced, you know.” I said, “Oh, well?” There were several of them, would tell me, going in to class, I said, “I don’t, I can’t believe if you, tell yourselves that that’s true.” And, ah, so, I went on to some of the classes that they told me the professors. Well, I would have been lost--well if I hadn’t taken some of those classes, that if who was in charge of Guidance and Counseling, they’d dream about that--but he--you had to toe the line and had to do whatever. Or do, you know. I had another one, in, uh, I can’t think his name, another class. They talking about, the. . . I didn’t have any problems. They, “Oh, man, you, probably you won’t pass, ( ). I said, “I didn’t, didn’t pass. . . didn’t have any trouble with any of them. And then when Dr. Eckle had this special program I was. . . selected in that group. Now he, he, ah, probably in all the other disciplines from, ah, across the campus, come in, talk with us, picket us. We, did a lot of visitation with the schools, elementary schools, high schools, to find out, and the administration, how it operated and all. I didn’t have any trouble. Now then, when it came then, when it came to this, when it got ready for, you, your orals, uh, they came by the, where they post it on the bulletin board. And they’d found out that I’d been exempted from my orals. Then they, they said, “Ooh, man, I didn’t know you were that heavy.” I said, “Oh, no, I just surprised myself.” The one thing, I said, and, and, ah, I, I did this, Dr. Eckle told me. He had two people in our group, said on the borderline of not getting their degree--Master’s degree. So he says, then, you got all A’s here, . . . and I can’t give, can’t, I, and then, and these, I got two people, one white and one black, that needs to make a B. They got C’s. And I, I can’t give. . . out so many. You know. So, he says, would you mind, taking a B in two of your courses? And let me, so, so they, they can graduate. And I said, “Well if everything else they got, and that’s the only thing that’s going to keep them from graduating, it’s just a C, moving. You, what that’d be a C in his class, he could, move them up to a B so they could, those were the only, only problems that’s there, I said what’s up. That’s alright. Now, that’s, the only thing about it, said, it, graduating, I guess I could graduate with honors if I had, if I had kept my A’s. But I said, “Now, those people had applied themselves and done the best they could, and he felt like they deserved the graduations, they had passed the other courses.” And I said, “Oh, I don’t want--I want to see them finish.”

BRINSON: And those were white students?

THOMAS: Huh?

BRINSON: Were they white?

THOMAS: One was white and one was black.

BRINSON: --One white and one was black. Mm-hmm.

THOMAS: And then, uh, one, the black fellow was, got to be Principal of the school. The white fellow got to be, uh, Superintendent. And then, they, they—I, I think, I don’t think they, getting’ in that class, they might not have understood, what we were doing since we had these other disciplines coming across. That might have been the problem that they were faced with.

BRINSON: I thank you very much for talking with me.

THOMAS: Oh, well, that’s, I appreciate it. And I enjoyed visiting with you, too. Glad to, to, uh, have this opportunity to meet you, and to. . .visit with you.

BRINSON: Thank you very much.

THOMAS: Before I –Look forward to seeing you, and visiting you some other time when it’s not on this occasion.

BRINSON: Thank you.

END OF TAPE THREE SIDE TWO

END OF INTERVIEW